Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 144: Sarah Megginson

Episode Date: February 3, 2025

Sarah Megginson (@sarahmegginsonmoney) is an editor and personal finance expert from Australia, who has co-written a book called The Power of Two. She has three children (Lila 14, Noa 11 and Jesse 9) and she was a surrogate mother for her friend Lisa’s baby in 2023.Baby Hugo is now 18 months old and Sarah explained to me how he feels like a nephew to her, although she carried and gave birth to him for her friend.We talked about her surrogacy journey and how it has been a positive and ‘expansive’ journey for herself and her family.On top of all of that she shared some very wise tips with me, about how to talk to your children about money!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Acast.com. Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexta and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates. Morning! Well it is where I'm standing. It's Tuesday morning and for want of a better word the day is murky. The sky is a kind of purpley, like a bruisey, bluey, purple. I think it might pour with

rain in a bit. But all is well, just dropped the smallest two off at school and yeah everything's fine really. I got a mixed bag this week. Today Richard and I are off to do a DJ gig actually, it's not tonight in Wales. Got to get ourselves there. First bit of singing of the year which I think I've done quite well. I've had like a proper break, my voice is totally repaired. I realised last year I was croaky for the last six months of the year. And at one point, forgive me if I'm repeating myself, at one point I did go and see a voice doctor. He had a little look with the camera. It was a little bit of swelling, but luckily nothing too serious.

But in about June I had laryngitis and I pretty much lost my voice, but like an absolute buffoon I still did my gigs. So I used whatever oil was in the tank at the time, got myself through the shows, but damaged my voice basically and it took all that time because I wasn't resting ever. It took all that time just to get it back to now. So I finally recovered all these notes now that were kind of patchy. It's still healing, but it's better, better, better.

That range is back. God, what an idiot. I mean, it's actually funny I'm talking to you about it considering last week's episode with Katherine Jenkins and how she does her 24 hours of vocal rest before the gigs. I'm thinking, yeah, that makes sense. What if we were...

Anyway, yeah, so tonight's my first bit of singing. And then apart from that, this week is quite nice really. Just a few meetings, more finishing off the record, a little bit of singing at home, seeing some friends, and generally being fairly, sort of fairly preppy rather than actually very active with new projects, just finishing things off and getting things ready. All good.

So last year when I was in Australia, I did a gig in Brisbane, and I invited to the show a woman who I've been speaking to on Instagram a little bit. Her name is Sarah Meginson. She is married with three kids. They are now 9, 12, 14. Boy, girl, girl.

By day, she is a sort of financial pundit. So she will take part in all sorts of things, whether it be TV or journalism or writing books, all about finances, encouraging financial confidence, financial literacy from kids upwards, which is fascinating by itself. I'm always fascinated by having a conversation about how we should educate children about money and also how we can get better money ourselves. It kind of fascinates me how squeamish we are about money overall. Maybe that's just me. Anyway.

But that is not what caught my eye about Sarah or why we ended up chatting. We ended up chatting because she has a over a decade long friendship with a woman called Lisa. Lisa was struggling to have a baby. 16 rounds of IVF and never once saw a pregnant sign afterwards. That kind of difficulty having a baby. Heartbreaking, draining. I mean, I can't even begin to imagine how tough that must have been for Lisa to go through that so many times. But their friendship was always very solid. And at one point back

in 2018, Sarah had said to her friend Lisa, you know, I could be your surrogate. And it wasn't acted upon. I think Lisa just wasn't quite there with that idea. However, a couple of years ago she said, okay, are you still interested in being my surrogate? And thus began the journey of Sarah being impregnated via IVF with her friend Lisa and her partner Stephen's baby, which Sarah took through the pregnancy and gave birth to a little boy, Hugo, now 18 months. So yes, Sarah was surrogate for her friend, whilst also raising her own kids, who at the time must have been, let me get my maths right. Six, nine, twelve, eleven, twelve.

And... Yeah, what an incredible, incredible story. So as soon as I read about that, I was like, wow. I have to follow this woman. And then we ended up, you know, exchanging the odd message. She's completely lovely. And I said to her, and she brought her a book now, The Power of Two, her and her friend Lisa.

So there is a book now, The Power of Two, her and her friend Lisa. So there is a book which is very comprehensive. So if there's anything you feel springs to mind about something you'd like to know about their journey through surrogacy, it is all in the book. I've talked about lots of things in our conversation, but the book is very thorough. But yeah, I just, I really want to thank her so much

for speaking to me about it because it's just an extraordinary story and I was so privileged to sit with her and hear about it and it's incredibly moving and full of hope and kindness and love and support and all the good stuff even though they face so many challenges along the way. And I say they meaning collectively, both their families, extended families, you don't do this thing just one, just two, it's actually concentric circles out. Anyway, have a listen, it's an amazing story. Sarah is a gorgeous woman and I'll see you on the other side. Sarah, just to check, how old are your, I know we both have Jessies. My Jessies now turn nine. Yes, mine just turned nine. Ah, happy birthday to him.

Two weeks ago. Amazing. Oh god, they're really close together. Mine was in November. And how old are your other kids? And then I've got Noah. she's 11 and a half. And then we have Lila, who's 14. 14, okay, cool.

And how are you finding this chapter of their childhood? Do you feel like the, I feel like the wheels have turned a bit here where we haven't got so many little ones anymore and we're into sort of bigger kids. And because you've got like older, older, don't you? Like 20? Yes, my oldest is 20. The next one down is going to be 16 in two weeks.

And then my little one's just turned six. Wow. So I feel like that's a new chapter as well. Yeah. Yeah, still little, but you're not really in that. Yes. You know, I'm getting rid of toys and that kind of thing, which feels a bit strange. We had our, well, actually this Christmas was my first Christmas where

I wasn't really buying many toys. Like the things they wanted were like, you know, Adidas sneakers and games. And like, there was very few toys, even for Jessie's nine, like I got a Miss Soccer Ball. But, you know, there wasn't a lot of like, you know, Christmas just used to be just buckets of toys on Christmas day. And I find six is a real turning point. It's like, it's where I think under six, if they're silent, you get worried. And over six, if you're silent, you're like, oh, they're just, they're just keeping to themselves.

It's fine. You can kind of breathe a little bit more, but I think the physicality of the parenting changes, you're not as physically there,, it's fine. You can kind of breathe a little bit more. But I think the physicality of the parenting changes. You're not as physically there, but it's emotionally just as demanding. And I don't know if that's a girls or age, but it's a lot. No, I think it's the age. I think this, it gets more nuanced, more complex. And there's so much I want to talk. I feel like I could have a whole conversation with you about your day job. I'm really fascinated to hear about how you work with finance and how you help educate people with that and empower them.

Oh, I'm so excited. But given that you are in, I don't know how many episodes I've done now, 150 odd, you're the first woman I've spoken to that's gone through what you've gone through. I think it would be pretty extraordinary if we didn't talk about what you did for your friend Lisa and the surrogacy. And it's made me think about so many things. And I was thinking, I can understand that pregnancy is one thing and motherhood is another and they are not the same thing. I get that. But at the same time, you were obviously parenting and being mother to your three children. And that constantly throws up new things anyway. And just before I spoke to you, I said to my nine-year-old, Jessie, I said, I'm going to speak to a lady

who her friend, Lisa, couldn't have a baby. And so she offered to carry her friend's baby in her tummy for her. How would you feel if I did that? He said, honestly, I wouldn't care. I don't care. And I was like, what about if my tummy's getting bigger and I'm getting more tired? And he's like, well, it's your tummy. But I thought actually, kids don't often,

I mean, it's so abstract. And when you're pregnant, I'm wondering how you embarked on it. Did you have to go in through it in real time or did you have a kind of idea of what it would look like? I had an idea and my idea was actually exactly how it happened. So I felt like for years before I did this when I was actually pregnant with Jesse, so that's like a decade ago, I remember being pregnant with him and I was already interested in the idea of surrogacy.

I didn't know I would do it for Lisa, but I just knew that I was interested in the idea that I get pregnant really easily. Like I kind of look at my husband and I'm pregnant and, and I carry quite easily. And I mean, I get a lot of morning sickness, but I can, pregnancy comes easy to me. So when I was pregnant with Jessie, I can remember when I was about six months pregnant, I could feel him kicking and moving. And I thought, if this wasn't my baby, how would I feel? Like, would I be maternally attached? And would I be able to like, as everyone says, like hand the baby over? And I thought I'm pretty sure I could do that. So it was only like that plant was,

that seed was planted. And then when this whole experience came to be, I think the really helpful thing was that my kids were older. I think if I was still in the trenches with them and they were really little and being pregnant was making me feel like, oh, another baby in the house, like another, more of that baby energy. And say, say Jesse was two and I would have been still in that in the diapers in the breastfeeding and all of that stuff it might have been harder mentally but for me we were so far past that my kids were six almost nine and eleven when I got implanted or when we started the journey and by then they were all old enough for us to talk to about it. I was very much like done with that early stage of parenting, like joyfully done.

And I think some parents listening to this will understand that feeling. Sometimes you don't feel done and you kind of like, oh, do we want one more, one more? But my husband and I were like, we are so full with three. You've got five. But we felt three was our capacity. And so I really there was no part of me that was pining for a baby again. And I think that's really important. I, I so when he was born, and since he's been here, he is adorable. He's so much sunshine. He's just like the cutest kid. But he's like, it's like a nephew to me in the respect that I adore him. But there's no part of me that feels like, oh, I wish he was mine. Because he just like isn't and wasn't. He was never, he was never meant to be mine. So I really hoped that I would have that really healthy level of detachment the whole way. And I did. I was really, really protective of him, but I was never like counting down to his arrival for me. It was more like I was counting down

for when I can get my energy back for my kids and like when my life would return to normal. But all those normal milestones you have when you're pregnant and you're like, you know when you're pregnant and you think ahead to Christmas and you go, Oh, Christmas we're going to have a four month old. And you think of those milestones and stuff. I wasn't doing any of that. So that mentally really helped me kind of, I guess, process everything that it was going to be. Yeah.

And that does actually, I can actually kind of get a little bit into that mindset. I imagine there are things that come up along the way that you're not expecting things you have to navigate. But I can see that shape in my head a bit too. And I think when I was reading your book, which by the way is so beautifully written and really comprehensive, so for anyone that's listening and they have questions about any aspect of your journey with surrogacy and your friendship, it's all in the book. So there's, I know you'll be repeating yourself a bit, but I also know there'll be things I haven't got time to delve into.

So yeah, The Power of Two really does, it's really beautifully told and covers every aspect of what you both experienced. The one thing I thought was really overwhelming was the fact that you and Lisa, your friend Lisa, seemed to have so much of a positive outlook and always looking for the light in everything. And I think when you're doing this together, having that same combination of where to be

pragmatic but where to let the optimism really flourish and hang your hopes on that, that kind of must be like quite a keystone aspect of what drags you through I would imagine. Absolutely and that is I would say Lisa's absolute superpower. Like she will, if there is a glimmer of hope or optimism in a situation, she will cling on to that and be like, that's the way we go then we'll take it, let's go. I mean she did 16 rounds of IVF herself before I stepped in. So I think you have to be like delusionally positive. You have to like believe in the impossible to just keep going. And so she, that is one of her

superpowers that I love. At least she'll just be relentlessly like, let's give it a crack. And we just, the whole way along, there were lots of challenges and there were lots of times that were difficult, but we just kept the eye on the prize. And I was so, so determined. They just had so many difficult moments along the way. And I was so determined to be the happy piece of the puzzle, the bit that helped bring it all together. And I can remember getting like heavily pregnant. I delivered to you at 38 weeks. And I remember from 36 weeks, I just started to feel a pressure, not that they had applied at all. They were amazing. But it was an internal pressure myself where I was like, please just get that you're so close to the

finish line. Just make sure nothing happens now. It would have been so devastating to like get all that way. And then something happens at the final stretch and I'm like, I do not want to be a person who contributes to the heartbreak. I want to be someone who helps them heal and get their happy ending. So I was, the feeling when he was born was like the biggest relief I've ever had in my life. Cause I was just like, oh, we're done. I never have to give birth again. So there's that. So like we made it and it was like handing him over literally, it's now your responsibility. Like, I grew him, now you take over. That kind of feeling of, my job is done, it was great. And so when you're feeling this hum of anxiety, where are you able to articulate that? I mean,

you must have had to, who were the key people that you had to have completely onside in this before you started aside from you and your friend, of course? I mean, such a good question. And it wasn't Lisa that I was sharing that with because I wanted her to be fully and, you know, fully able to enjoy the fact that she's about to become a mum. So there's so many parts of the process that she didn't get. I mean, in doing 16 rounds of IVF, she never saw two pink lines until we did it. So you know, when you talk about her relentless positivity to just keep going back and back and back. So I didn't share anything with her.

My husband was incredible. Like he just, to sign up for this in the first place when I said to him, hey, I think I want to have a baby for a friend. And he was like, okay, can we talk about what that means? Yeah. So what were his concerns? I suppose he, would it be about your health, your safety? First and foremost, because I was 41 when I got pregnant, when I got implanted. So straight up he was like, oh, how do you think you're gonna go? And I said, oh, you know, like, we'll see.

I think I'm gonna be okay. And then I had, when we'd had our children, I got hernias from my kids. So it was a beautiful gift they gave me was to separate my stomach. And I'd had quite extensive surgery to bring my midline back together. And when I did that, my surgeon said,

don't go get like, you've got to be finished with children. And we were finished. So we didn't know we were going to do this experience. We were going to sign up for surrogacy. It had just always been in the back of my mind, but it wasn't something I was actively trying to do. I had always just thought if the right opportunity comes up and the moons align,

this is something I'd love to do for someone. And that's what happened with Lisa. So I went and had that surgery in 2019 and got it all taken care of, got my stomach or my midsection all repaired. So that was my husband's main concern. He was like, what about your stomach? Like you've had everything stitched back together. Is it just going to like explode out? And I was like, great question. Let's, let's speak to the doctor. So I told the surgeon, um, and he was amazing and he just kind of said, look, it's not, it's not ideal to go get pregnant again now, but, um, it's not

impossible either, and if it's important to you, then I say go for it. And then on the other side, we'll just put you back together if we need to. Um, but he said, don't have twins. You cannot have twins because that would just put so much pressure on you. So I knew going in that I wouldn't be able to carry twins. And thankfully Hugo was just a single baby and there was no splitting that happened or anything. Yeah.

So my husband was just concerned about that. He was like, hey, you're a bit older and what about, what about your stomach? And, and then I said, we'll check that out. And he's like, also, you know, you get really sick when you're pregnant, because I get really, really bad morning sickness. So how long? What, the beginning or on going? Till about, it usually goes till about 16, 17 weeks with Hugo, it was till about 17 weeks. And he was like, are you sure you want to do that? And just, and I was like, yeah, everything he said to me though, I was like, yeah, that's going to suck, but like nothing was bad enough to go, but you know, versus

giving these two parents, the, or these two people, the opportunity to be parents. I was like, it doesn't feel right to say, oh, no, because I'm going to be sick for 17 weeks. Like that just felt like, well, I can, I can manage, I can manage being sick. I can manage pressure on my stomach. I can manage all that stuff because on the other side, they'll get a baby. So nothing ever was like strong enough to go, oh, okay, we should skip this. Um, and he was amazing.

He was so supportive. Like it, I think it's, I think it's a lot to ask of a husband to be like, Hey, can you support me? And basically like derailing our life for a year, um, in so many ways so that we can do this for friends. And he was amazing. He was like, yep, if it's important to you, let's do it. And from, as soon as we said yes yes and it was happening, he was just

on board supportive the whole time. Yeah. Well, I imagine it wouldn't, it couldn't have worked if you hadn't had the two of you in on it together. Yes. And also, I think I recognise there's a similar thing in me sometimes where, you know, even though you said I can manage and oh yeah, well, you're obviously the sort of person that has a conversation with a surgeon who's already said you probably shouldn't do this again.

And he goes, it could go like this, it could go like that. But if, but yeah, we can put you to get together. Theoretically, it's going to be all you hear is there's possibly it's possible. Yes, yes. You put the phone down like you're like, he didn't say no. It wasn't a no. So I was like, I'm going to take the yes. So yeah, you're exactly right. And I imagine, I mean, I knew I'd find it moving to speak to you about it because firstly,

the miracle of having a baby, the miracle of your friend becoming a mother, seeing that change for her, something so wanted. I'm so sorry she's gone through 16 rounds of IVF. I mean, that is absolutely heartbreaking. And I just, I think through all of the hurdles and the challenges and the things you learned about that you maybe weren't even expecting to learn. There must be an extraordinary privilege in what's happened that is so unique. I was actually looking up some statistics about surrogacy before we spoke and it's a very, very small amount of births that are through surrogacy. In the UK, it's in the hundreds, not thousands annually. Did you have anyone you could speak to that had been through it?

No. It's just as rare here in Australia. I think it's a hundred, there are about a hundred surrogacy births within Australia a year, so about two a week. And then there's about another 200 that happen overseas where Australian parents go to America and pay for commercial surrogacy. So in Australia, it's only altruistic. You can only do it without payment. So there's no industry around it. And I think that's why it's so small.

No one's making money off it. So there's no resources. There's no industry at all around it. So I didn't know anyone. Anything that I knew about surrogacy was from reading stories online or, you know, seeing media clippings and bits and pieces. Um, and I think in a way it was kind of helpful cause we kind of, I didn't hear the horror stories until afterwards.

I think it's one of those things that if you think about it too much and you think about everything that could go wrong, you could get in your head about it and go, oh, okay, not going to do this. But we just went into it so blindly optimistic that we were just looking at all the upsides and the potential and that was really nice and it carried us through a lot. We were really lucky too. Our obstetrician was incredible. Dr. Drew Moffrey was amazing. And when we kind of booked in with him, he had experience with surrogacy births, which was really helpful. So he helped us navigate some of that stuff. But then once we were underway with him, he did share a

few horror stories of, in particular, where it's not known surrogate. So when it was someone who's like matched up with someone online and it's all kind of gone pear shaped and then the surrogate mother at you know halfway through the pregnancy just said I don't want to see you again until the baby's born. And so the mother just had no idea what was happening with the pregnancy for the next 20 weeks and the doctor is you know bound by the confidentiality with the, with the patient. So he can't share the updates. And I was like, oh man, it's such a big leap of trust and faith for everyone involved.

Um, and so many like little, little parts of it that you don't really think about how much you just have to trust with it. Like, um, when I gave birth, uh, until Hugo, I think, 13 months old, he was legally my child. So when we gave birth and were in the hospital, they weren't allowed to leave the hospital with him until I got discharged because the hospital discharges me and the baby together. So we all had to discharge together. I wasn't allowed to leave without them and they weren't allowed to leave without me, which was totally fine. We all just made sure we left at the same time together. But it's just like little

things like that. If there was any wobbles in the relationship could be really, really painful for a lot of people. Yeah. And I should imagine, you said you didn't really have anything to compare it to, but for you the idea of surrogacy without the friendship must be quite a hard thing to even get your head around because that's such a different set of markers at the beginning. And all the conversations you would have with Lisa throughout the whole thing and, you know, the honesty, you must have had such a carefully balanced way of gauging how the other one's feeling.

So you know when it's okay to have those chats. And actually sometimes when it's not and what is not the right thing to share. Yeah. That's a lot. You have to have a lot of heart all the time with that. Yes. And a lot of like just kind of awareness, I guess, that, you know, there are a lot of times through it where I was aware that I was getting like heavily pregnant, particularly when I'm showing a lot and the baby's moving a lot

and I would be like, oh, he's kicking. Do you want to feel it? But then sometimes I'd be like, oh, is that weird for you? Like it's, you're not feeling him kick. So I don't want to make too big a deal of it. But at the same time, I want you to experience this." But she was amazing. I think she's just programmed her brain so much to be like, just see the positivity in every situation. There was never any part of it where she expressed that she was feeling

jealous or that she was missing out on anything, I think because she'd tried for so long. I think by the time I agreed to be a surrogate, someone could have said, hey, if you stand upside down on your head and balance three plates there for an hour a day and we'll deliver you a baby from an alien land, she would have said yes, you know? Anything to get the baby at that point. So she was just so grateful that she was getting a baby. She absolutely wasn't focused on that she was getting a baby. She absolutely

wasn't focused on what she was missing out on. Yeah, and I can understand that. And for your friendship, did writing the book give you – because when you've had that closeness and you're speaking to each other so much and sharing all these appointments and all this intimacy, how does your friendship survive the bit where they haven't got the necessity of all that? I was thinking sitting opposite each other writing the book must have given you an excuse to spend time with it again. Absolutely.

And explore it again. That is such a good insight. And it's right, like after, because especially towards the end of the pregnancy, it's every week we're meeting at the obstetrician and it's just constant appointments. I also got gestational diabetes, so I was having nutritionist appointments and all of that type of thing. So we were just constantly, in every appointment I went to, she would come, if she could, she would come to them. So we were just in each other's pockets for a while. But it's like one of those really intense experiences. You're not meant to be in each other's pockets for

a long period, you know, with anyone other than your partner and your kids. It's like, you know, when you have Friends Day with you and you're happy to have them for a week, but you don't want them there for a month. And this was kind of that type of thing where it was so intense and beautiful and just we were so committed to this end goal. It was such a joyful experience, all of it, because everything was like a day closer and a step closer to his arrival. Then when he was born, we were all a bit sad because we just went back to our own homes. And so for the first few weeks afterwards, I was really hormonal. And I was like, oh, I really like I miss, I miss being pregnant. And I miss all of that whole experience. But then, you know, my hormones settled and life settled down. And

then doing the book was really nice, because then we got to kind of recapture some of that energy of like, you know, spending time at each other's house and sitting down in these big chunks of a God's Day with Lisa overnight and do these big writing chunks. That was really nice to get that time, those times back in. And then we published the book and released it. And again, we're spending lots of time together to release it. And I would say now it's only now and Hugo's 18 months that we're kind of settled into the regular rhythm of our life.

Um, and it's actually just really lovely. Like we're back to just normal friends where it might be a couple of months that we don't catch up because life is chaos and now she's got a toddler and she's learning the balance of you know work and toddler and this is a lot. So you know we're in that really nice space now where there's not pressure to catch up, we see each other where we can but it's just it's she's now sloshed into my life like my other besties, like my other best mates that we see each other when we can, but we fully appreciate that we are all spinning plates and doing our best not to drown every day.

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19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Katie Boland. And I'm Emily Hemsher. Who didn't want to be here? On our new podcast, The Whisper Network,

we want to speak out loud about all the stuff that we usually just whisper about, like our bodies, our cycles, our sex lives. Basically everything I text to you, Katie. So this is like your intimate group chat with your friends. And we can't wait to bring you into The Whisper Network. This journey is a nightmare for me. I'm doing it for all of us, so you're welcome.

Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. Yeah, and I guess as well, you need, I mean, 18 months is a little while, but not so long and you need time to let everything percolate and also you now know that it did have a happy ending. So all the emotions that were coming and going that you maybe tried to suppress or found tricky, you can now like treat them with the benefit of knowing it worked out all right,

but you can kind of wade through it a little bit. Absolutely. And there was so much that happened along the way that it took me time to process it, because when you're in it, and I would imagine you might relate to this, your last year has been so bonkers, and you've had so many like amazing things happen and that was kind of the experience for me over the last couple of years where so much has happened and I've been in moments going oh god I wish I could just slow down and be here right now but there's so much happening and in the middle of it all you've still got to like cut the kids sandwiches and find their socks and get them ready for school, but really fun, exciting things are happening around it

and you almost can't process it all in real time. Yeah, exactly. I'm now at the point where I can sit a little bit and sit in it and I can remember doing, my husband's a radio announcer and so we spoke on the breakfast show at his station just before Christmas about the book and one of his coworkers who I've known for like 15 years were in the studio and we've got the

baby there and we're all talking about the book and it's all so exciting and stuff. And he just kind of grabbed my hand and he stopped and he was like, I know there's a lot happening right now, but I just want you to stop and think about what you did. Like that is a rocking chair moment. Like you've changed the course of these people's lives. And I was like, oh, he really like in the middle of all that frost and bubble just kind of centered me in it. I was like, holy shit, that was a thing.

That was a big thing that we did. And, you know, that is something that I think, I don't think, I think it could be five years from now and I'll still be kind of processing and unpacking parts of it. Yeah. I think it's a forever learning. Well, he's so right. I mean, it changes everything. It changes the course of the future as well, because a new person is here.

He wasn't here before. And so all the things, as he gets older, the idea of this person like that now exists, it's just ongoing, it's ongoing beauty, isn't it? Yeah. And I wonder if you've thought about how your kids will think about this chapter of their childhood. Because I know what kids are like. They're very in the moment. Sometimes it'll be there. So I mean, the things that go over their heads and also the things that they're really obsessed on, you just can't always predict it. And I wonder, like, some days they must,

you must have overheard them playing with a friend and the friend asking a couple of questions and it's kind of, da da da, and then they move on to playing with the toys or whatever. Yeah. But there will be bits when they're older where they go, oh, that thing that happened is not, it's not very typical. Yes. And it's unique and wow, our mum and dad, and wow, our friend Hugo.

Yeah. Yeah. I really, I went into it, we did a little bit of counseling and I must say, not as much as I thought we would do. I'm someone who like, I've been seeing a psychologist for years and years because I started seeing one when my dad passed away and I was like, oh, there's a lot of feelings here. I feel like I need to speak to someone and I wanted to help my kids through it. So I've been seeing a psychologist for years, but through the surrogacy process, they only really need one at the beginning.

You have one session at the beginning and one at the end. And I would have thought there'd be a lot more considering. Wow, that is not that many. I feel like it should be a lot more than that. But I just, I did anyway, because I wanted to. And at the very beginning, the psychologist we saw, he said, these experiences can be really expansive for the kids.

And I really grabbed onto that word. I was like, I really hope this is expansive for all of us. And what I love about the word expansive is it doesn't mean amazing. It doesn't mean it's all gonna be good. Expansive, to expand means you're gonna have challenges and roadblocks and hard bits and good bits, but your life will expand because of it.

And that's what I was hoping for. And it really, it was like that I'm a different person now than who I was three years ago when I offered to be her surrogate for so many reasons. And I think, I hope my kids will come away from this. And I certainly think my daughters, when they're in their 20s and 30s and maybe thinking about kids for themselves, they might be like,

oh, that's a pretty big thing mom and dad did. They might have a renewed appreciation for it. But we really tried to keep them involved in it from the beginning and ask a lot of questions and make them really clear that they were not getting a sibling. I didn't want them to be shocked when the baby doesn't come home. And we did, we dropped the ball a little bit because we told them we were going to do it.

And I went and got implanted my daughter, who was 12 at the time. She actually came along with me to the implantation. So really, really involved. And then like four weeks later, I was pregnant. I was four weeks pregnant and really sick. And I was on the sofa and my son at the time, he would have been almost seven and he was like, oh, mom, have you had that baby yet for your friend? And I was like, oh, buddy, no, I'm like four weeks pregnant and I've got to get to 40 weeks. And he was like, what? And I was like, well, you haven't seen my belly grow, like I'm going to get really big and the baby's got to grow. And then my daughter, who was, she was about nine at the time, she was like,

so when are you giving birth? And I said, it's going to be like end of July, early August. And she's like, you're going to be pregnant at my birthday because her birthday is in July. I could see all the clogs, like the clogs ticking in her brain. And they were like, I didn't know it was going to take that long. I said, sorry guys, but yeah, it's a bit of a long-term thing. But they were amazing and really, they've really taken it in their stride the whole time, because it wasn't just the pregnancy.

It was then afterwards I had to disappear for a few weekends to go write a book. And then when the book came out, I disappeared for a few weekends to go do book launches and stuff. And they just have been amazing at just kind of knowing that this is something that's important for mum. I've always, though in my career, I've always had a really fantastic career that gets me a little bit of travel, nothing crazy, but I'm away a bit. And I'm always really mindful because I'm a writer. I'm so mindful of my words. And I always say, I get to, I get to travel. I never say, oh, mommy has to go to work. Like mom has to leave. I always say I get to, because it's like such a great fun part of my job that I get to go do this. And it's really important and fun. And I'm really going to miss you, but I get to go have

this opportunity. So I really try to mindfully express that to them because I don't actually, I don't have a tension between, I do miss them when I'm gone, but I absolutely love my work and I love being away and being able to just fully focus and do my work is such a gift. I'm like so grateful that I've got a husband that supports that. And I want them to understand that fully, fully robust thing that is a mum. You know, when I grew up, mums and teachers were like, what? You know, you'd see a teacher at the shops and be like, you exist outside of school? Yeah, terrifying. Mums are the same. Yeah, it was disconcerting. Mums are the same. We just exist to serve them.

So I'm trying especially, well, I was going to say especially for my daughters, but also for my son. I want him to be the kind of partner when he's older that's just like fully supportive and in it with his partner, whether they're a man or a woman or whatever, that he's supportive. And I think that's such a long-winded answer to your question, that I think this whole experience has helped them just see that there is so much possibility in life. There's so many different things we can do. You're never ever stuck in something. You can always change things. That's kind of the moral that I hope they get from it, the moral of the story.

the moral that I hope they get from it, the moral of the story. Yeah, and also, you know, this doesn't... Being able to do what you did for your friend did not start with the implantation, and it didn't start with you suggesting surrogacy. The framework of what allowed you... What works for you as a family and how you communicate and, you know, transparency and openness and, you you know thinking about the words use all of that is the foundation for everything you go through isn't it? Yeah.

It goes back to the inception of your family really or you know your relationship with your husband it's like it all builds on itself so to be able to take your daughter to the implantation you know that's the thing that it starts with how you've handled other things she's gone through and how you talk to her about other stuff that's going on. So it's always back in time, really. It's not like you suddenly develop these new or had to develop new skills. Yeah, it's so true.

It just wouldn't work. It just would not work. And actually on the subject of your career, how much of a factor was your work when it came to taking on a pregnancy? Because that's a big deal. Yeah, and my work was amazing. So I'm a media commentator and like a personal finance journalist.

And in my job, when I told my boss I was doing this, she was so incredibly supportive and straight away arranged for me to have six weeks full paid leave when I had the baby. Um, and I was just saying like, I've got heaps of sick leave. Can I use some of that and have a couple of weeks off? She's like, no, you need six weeks. You need to fully recover.

We'll look after you. So they took care of me, which was amazing. Um, and I was also just really lucky to be one of the people that gets to work from home. Um, not everyone does anymore. Um, majority, it seems like majority of officers are going back to work from home. Not everyone does anymore. Majority, it seems like majority of officers are going back to the office now. So I was really, really lucky that I worked from home. So I had that flexibility, especially in the early days when I was getting morning sickness,

where I could, you know, I was vomiting a lot. So I could like be at my desk for an hour and then just go vomit, lie down on the couch for 20 minutes. Okay, come back. And time shift a lot of my work, you know, I could get up in the morning when I had the most energy and kind of work from six till nine. And then when I start to get sick, go have a lie down and stuff. So they were amazing and so, so flexible. Um, and I was really lucky at all. Like my, my job is crazy.

I, I do, I know two days are never the same. And so there was so many moments in the pregnancy that kind of happened at work because I do a lot of, like we do heaps of research and data and I present a lot of it to the media. And so there would be all these weird times where like I'm waiting for the IVF clinic to call, but there's like a whole camera crew in my house to do like a presentation or to do recording something for the night's news. And I'd be like, I just have to take this call. And I'd duck out and the IVF clinic is like, oh, you're pregnant. Oh my God, that's so exciting.

And then go back and record, you know, a thing about the price of groceries for the night's news. It was just this weird juxtaposition. Yeah, it's crazy things happening all the time. But that's kind of our life. Our life is so chaotic and we're always just just throwing ourselves into things all the time. So kids were used to it. Yeah, and I guess that kind of energy becomes something you... I mean, I kind of thrive on that sometimes,

even though I also feel sometimes a bit overwhelmed. I'm not very good at having it quiet. I get a bit... 100% What else can be going on? And you've got more than me. You've got the five. I've just got the three kids. I don't know though. I think it's just more of the same because I think when I had my first, like when I just had one for nearly five years, that took up all the same amount of headspace really. I don't feel like it's had to multiply necessarily. I think it's just like it's had to multiply necessarily. Um, I think it's just the way you compartmentalize the things that end up crossing the speed at which you sometimes have to change gears.

Um, it's, I think it comes with, as soon as that's part of your life, it's just, it could be normal. It's just in your normal, isn't it? And it's all relative. I remember when I had one child and just like taking her to the grocery store felt like hell, like trying to stop her from grabbing things and whatever. Then when I had three, if I got to leave one of them at home and I only had two with me

at the grocery store, I was like, oh, this is a breeze. I've only got two. You just kind of, yeah, you deal with what you've got, don't you? So true. And what were you doing the same job when you had your first baby? No, so I was, gosh, that was a million years ago, she's 14 now. So way back then I was a, I was still a finance journalist, but I was just, not just, but I was kind of a reporter and a feature writer.

So my, the responsibilities were way lower and I was freelance back then. So I could pick and choose my jobs and, and I could sleep when I wanted and when I could, you know, work from eight o'clock at night to midnight if I wanted to. And really, it was such a blessing for my first child to have so much freedom around my schedule. And so I was in a similar industry, but by the time I had Hugo, I was in a leadership role and I was managing a team and there was just quite a few more responsibilities.

That really is. Were you worried about that at all? Were you worried about dedication to these things? If this is the time for you to kind of be like really, yeah, you know, in that peak bit of work? I think, I think my boss was amazing and having her support in me, I think just gave me such a, like that just does, it boosts you and someone else believes in you, it's kind of infectious. So because she was just like so amazing, that really helped me.

And I also did, I was really mindful to try and not burn out. Like I'm really bad though try and not burn out. Like I'm really bad though at recognizing that in myself. I will just keep going and keep going and keep going. But I really tried to go like, you know, this is not just your body on the line, like you're having a baby, so you really need to be healthy. So I did, I got to about seven months pregnant and I said to my boss, I'm struggling a bit.

And we agreed for me to take every Wednesday off and she was totally fine for me to do that. And that was really helpful because I'd work two days then have a full day and that day off usually became the day we would go see the obstetrician or go do any appointments we needed to do, but just being able to have that breather in the middle of the week where I wasn't in meetings and having to keep things ticking along at work was fine. But again, any worries that I had, they just, every time that I would go, oh, what if it impacts my job? I was like, oh well, I'll have time on the other side to like catch up again. And there was nothing that I ever went,

oh yeah, that's a deal breaker. Everything just kind of felt like, yeah, but I'll be able to, there's a way around that. Like we'll figure it out. You just committed to it. You could just see, just wanted to see if you could just get there. Just get it, get it done. Yeah. Can I ask you a little bit about finance with kids? How do you recommend we talk to our children about money? It's tricky.

It's even tricky now they don't have real money around anymore. Oh my gosh, it's so hard. My kids wouldn't recognize coins at all. They'd be like, what's that? I don't know what that... Because we don't have any cash anymore. They have like digital pocket money accounts. It goes in, it goes out. We have a little bit of cash, enough to give the kids pocket money, but I love this question because the first thing we need to do is actually talk to them. So many people just don't talk to kids about money because for so many reasons, like sometimes

it's because we don't feel like we've got a good handle on it, so we don't really know what to tell them. Other times there's still that real feeling of like we shouldn't talk about money, you know, it's not the done thing, it's a bit taboo. And other times we don't want to worry our kids if we've got money struggles, you don't want them to know about it. So we kind of, we hide a lot, but kids know everything, they pick up everything, they pick up the smallest words. And I even, you know, I was saying before, I think the words we use are so important. So no matter what financial situation you're in, I recommend you never say to your kids, we can't afford that. We say we're not going to buy that. We're not spending money

on that at the moment, but not to say we can't afford that because kids can take that and make it mean something else entirely. And a little throwaway comment of, no, we can't afford that, put it back. If they hear that enough, that starts to create like a story in them that we can't afford things. And that those little seeds as a kid, they start to form your money beliefs as you're older. All of us now walking around as adults are the product of what we grew up with as kids and the stories that we have as kids are what we believe. In a slightly different tangent, I did like this, this like painting, paint and sit party thing on the weekend where an artist comes and helps you paint. One of my girlfriends there, she said, I just remember growing up and always being told

I wasn't an artist. Like my mum would say, oh, you're not an artist. And she's like, I believed it about myself for so long that she was actually nervous coming to this like fun family friend paint day. And I was like, man, it's just shows like the things we get told as kids, they really do like settle in. So if you grow up and you hear we can't afford it, you start to think we're poor.

No matter what your situation is, you start to think, oh, we can't afford that. Mum and dad don't have enough money. And kids can internalize that to mean a whole bunch of things. So I really recommend as comfortable as you are, like take it as comfortable as you are with your kids to talk to them about things. I talk to my kids about everything. Like they know how much money we earn. They know how much our house is worth. They know all sorts of things. I try to say to them, you know, this is not for

you to like talk about at school, but I just try to involve them in conversations because I want them to know that when I say, no, we're not buying that. I'll say like, well, we're not going to, you guys want, I don't know, you want to get takeaways tonight, but we're really saving up because we're for Easter, we're going away on that holiday. And I really want us to have an amazing time there. So we're going to like tighten the belt now and save that money for that. Or the things that they want. I'll kind of talk to them about, yeah, you've got your pocket money. You can save that. You can spend it on that if you want to. But once it's gone, it's gone and you'll get that little dopamine hit. I even talked to them about

the dopamine hits of shopping and buying. And it's really fun when you get it, but then you get home and all your money's gone. And that can be really fun sometimes, but next time you want to do something, you don't have any money left. So starting to kind of teach them that idea of the spending and saving and delayed gratification and all that stuff. But I think the conversations we have with them are really important because kids will make up stories, whether you tell them or not, they will start to tell themselves stories based on the little bits of information they glean, the little conversations they overhear between parents.

I even said something to my husband the other day about, we just spent heaps of money at Christmas and I said something, I can't even remember what it was, it was like a little comment in the kitchen over breakfast. I said something like, oh, our savings account dropped below blah. And my 11 year old, what, what does that mean? Do we not have enough money? And I said, no, no, no, we're fine. We've got plenty, but I'm just letting dad know, like, our savings have taken a hit to here. And we just know that means we need to like, call our jets a bit. No more records. He's a record fiend. He'd buy five records a week if we had no budget. So I was like, you know, can we call our jets on the spending, you know, for the next couple of

months? But I love that she is, she's so used to kind of talking about it, hearing about it, as soon as she heard the thing that worried her, she spoke up like, Oh, are we, do we not have money, mum? What's going on? Um, I certainly didn't grow up with that. I grew up with so much financial instability and conversations happening around me and me making up stories in my head about what it meant. Um, so I think the more open we can be with our kids, the better.

Well, I think there's so much wisdom in that. I totally agree that I think your relationship with money is a lot of it is formed by the time you're 10. And it's very emotional. And it becomes to do with lots of other things. And I am now, like you, I was not party to financial conversations. I didn't understand a lot of it. And I never knew how much my parents got paid for anything. I didn't know how much a house was worth. And things were sort of shrouded in a kind of,

we're not gonna talk about that. Or you won't understand what it means, you won't have any context. I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong, because I think that's an instinct. And probably, yeah, a lot of it would have been like, wow, that just sounds like tons, I've got no idea. But I've been experimenting with actually being really quite open with the kids about money, because so many adults feel intimidated

by financial conversations and awkward, and it becomes messy, and people will say, oh, I don't want to talk. It can become quite icky for people. They feel almost a bit ashamed about having to monetize aspects of their life or their work. So I just think the more I can take away the squeamishness of finance. That's 100% it. Take away the awkwardness. And, you know, men are actually much better at this than women because men, you know, they'll often have like the group chats going.

You think about all the crypto crap that's happened in the last few years, like how many men have these group chats where they're back and forth talking about it or, you know, there's just more, I think there's more cultural acceptance within guys to talk about, oh bro, you got that pay rise, you got that new job, like what are you making now? Like it's more just a thing. And I love helping women start to have those conversations and, you know, put those pieces together. And I think you're so right. There is so much shame that happens around money.

Um, but you don't know what you don't know. And if you don't have these questions, you're often sitting in the dark and you don't know that you're missing out on these things or there's so much that we hold onto from childhood. And I have a friend who, she is a creator. She makes ridiculous money, like seven figures a month style money. And all of her money is in a savings account. And it's not even a high interest savings account. It's just a savings account because she's so scared of losing it, you know, because

she just, she had such so much pain around money growing up and she didn't have money. And she's like, I just want to see it. And I'm like, you can still see it if we put it in the high interest account and then you can just earn 5% on it. Like I'm not even pushing you to invest it. I just want you to put it in the high interest account, then you can just earn 5% on it. Like I'm not even pushing you to invest it. I just want you to put it in a savings account. But that's going to be a bit of a, you know, a process for her. But the thing is, even though she's wealthy, she does not experience life as a wealthy

person because she is living on the edge of I could lose this at any minute, because that's what her money story is from when she was younger. So that's what one of the things I just love doing is helping people kind of connect those dots and work out that maybe how they grew up is not how they're going to continue to go and that even if you think you're not a money person, you don't have to be a money person, you just need to understand a few of the basics and then like streamline it all and just take a lot of that stress out of it. I think money just, it can feel really heavy and hard, but when you figure out the little,

the building blocks of it, it actually can give him like, wow, this is actually gives me freedom and choice and opportunity. And so that's why I love talking about it with kids. I love that kids can like start with the idea that anything is possible and you know my son he's nine and his pocket money is better than his sister's because he's you know he's nine and he's only interested in soccer cards and robux so he doesn't spend much and he's got I think $400 saved up from his pocket money and stuff. And if you ask him what he's saving for, he'll say a Lamborghini. And that to him, at nine, is very real.

He's like, yeah, that's what I want to get. And I love the delusion. Like, yes, get it. Get your Lamborghini. Like, I'm sure... You're not following right now, son. Yeah. But isn't it interesting as well?

Like, people have got such different relationships with money, and some people people are more spendy and some people are more, you know, they're savings and I don't talk about money very often with my girlfriends but when you do, it's like, oh, I didn't realize you were like, some people you'll think will be so sorted and they're not, they're like, I've got no pension, I've got no savings. Other people will be like, oh yeah, I once ran up a credit card debt of this, or they've, they've got, they're actually being really shrewd and, oh no, I've invested in this, it really unveils like this other side to people that you weren't, you weren't necessarily imagine.

A hundred percent. And also it's the, you know, the big thing on social media of what you perceive of people is just largely not the story. Like, it's very easy for someone to go put a $3,000 handbag on a credit card and you think they've got money. And it's also very easy for someone to just not have any, like, designer goods that they're showing online, but have significant wealth. Like, what you see people present of themselves is often not the real story.

Um, and again, though, I think there can be so much shame like amongst girlfriends where they're like, I don't want to admit, I don't want to admit that my finances are crap or, or that my partner does it all. And I actually don't even know what our money situation is. And that's in Australia. And I would suspect it's probably similar in the UK, but in Australia, our fastest growing homeless population is single women over 50, because it's, you know, it's the age where a lot of marriages fall apart. Children have grown up, they've left and started their own life, and the husband often, you know, leaves and

repartners or whatever. But the mum, who in many cases has kind of taken years out of the workforce, doesn't have, we have a thing here called super, which is kind of like your pension, but superannuation, where you save for your future. They've taken a big hit to their super because they've been out of the workforce and they've been raising kids. They maybe don't have heaps of skills and often they have not been running the finances in their family and they've just got no financial literacy and they're starting again in their 50s. They're the people that I think about that I'm like,

I would just love you to, I'd love to reach those people and just help them engage with their money and see what's possible for them. And it's so hard to rebuild. And it's easier when you've got a few of those financial foundations right at the beginning. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a heartbreaking idea of how vulnerable those people would be. And stuck. You're right, if you could, yeah. Stuck in really hard marriages or places that aren't really-

And also embarrassed to admit where they're at because they've maybe been living one way when they're in the marriage and then when they're not, everything has to shift. Yeah. And some people can feel like they've been really naive or a bit silly about it, which is not the case. Obviously, it's just circumstantial and generational. But the idea of it is, yeah, it takes a lot to admit sometimes. I mean, yeah, I can totally see how that happened. Sometimes when I've had a meeting with my accountant,

there'll be a bit in the meeting where I'll think, I hope my face looks like I'm understanding and I'm making the right sounds. Just because I sometimes do find it a bit overwhelming aspects of it. Things that I just wish I'd been taught about in school, about how to, you know, independent business and everything. It's like a very, you have to learn it on the hop sometimes and ask questions and know

what to ask and understand the answer and admit when you don't. Yeah, absolutely. Like literally my dream would be to go around schools and teach about financial literacy to help kids understand this stuff. But there are so many people, I was even reading, like this sounds so bizarre, but I was reading an article about Al Pacino the other day and how he has struggled financially his whole life, like even when The Godfather was coming out, like his big, big movies, because he had no understanding of how to manage his money. And he's kind of gone broke a number of times, but then he'll do a big movie and get millions again and then go broke again.

And it's part of the story. He said, at one point he was paying $400,000 a year for a gardener on a house he didn't even live in. It was like a holiday home somewhere. And he's like, I had gotten so far away from running my life. Like he had so many like business managers and all of that stuff that he didn't even know where his money was going. Um, and, and, you know, it's that, it's that thing of like, you don't know what you don't know and you just assume that people who kind of have a profile or who seem to be wealthy and successful that, oh, they've got, they've got no problems

and they've got it all together. But sometimes it's true, like more money, more problems. It's just more money, more things to spend it on. So if you're a creative, then you're encouraged to lead with your heart. But sometimes it's true, like more money, more problems. It's just more money, more things to spend it on. So if you're a creative, then you're encouraged to lead with your heart. So the idea of financial literacy is not necessarily a skill you ever really hone. It's just you can live in a sort of perpetual, like a teenage brain moment of just going where the light is.

I'm conscious of your time, Sarah. So just to go back to what brought us together in the first place with me, discovering your story and us meeting. You mentioned that you're a different person now than you were three years ago. And I wondered if you could share with me some of the ways you think things have changed since your experience of giving birth to your friend's baby. Yeah, wow. I think the one thing I've really realised, my personality, the type of way I've been

brought up and the way I have adapted to my upbringing and everything is that I really love, I'm a real type A person. I love clear next steps, known outcomes, like all my ducks in a row. Unsurprising, my budget is a color-coded spreadsheet. I like to describe myself as like I can be really spontaneous within the confines of a good structure. So like... What does it mean?

So I've got a really good way to explain it. I'm the type of person that if I'm going on holidays, I like to have it all planned out as in I know where I'm going, I know where my hotel is, I've pre-booked the hour, I know how I'm going to get from the airport to where I'm going. But once I'm there, I'm ready to have fun. I'm up for anything. Like once I've got the foundation sorted and someone goes, do you want to go horse riding on the beach? Yeah, let's do it.

Do you want to go, we want to go eat at this taco bar like an hour down. Yeah, let's do it. Like once I'm there, ready to be spontaneous. But my idea of hell would be to turn up to a country and go, you've got 10 days and nothing booked. That makes me itchy. I'm like, and one of my girlfriends just did that recently.

She went to India for a wedding. Once the wedding was done, she's like, I'm here for another 10 days. And I was like, I don't understand. I'm itchy for you. I'm back in Australia in a stress rash because where are you sleeping tonight? I don't understand.

So I really like very clear structures. And within that structure, I can be a good time. So this whole experience, you could not keep it in a structure. Like it's just the craziest thing to do to really to get that intimate with your friends. Like there's no more intimate you can get with someone who's not your partner than to have a baby with them. And it really just pushed me out of my comfort zone in so many ways that have stretched me and made me loosen up.

And I'm now on the other side of it. And I'm like, I'm just not as, I'm still very, very Taipei, but I'm just not as, I'm starting to let go a little bit and be like, you don't need to know exactly how things are going to turn out. You just have to trust that you're going to get there and the right thing will happen. I think, you know, I'm really fortunate that this did. The thing I wanted was to carry this baby to full term and give birth and hand the baby

over. And that exactly happened. But so much else happened in and around it that was not planned, not part of what I signed up for kind of thing. And that has really been a great lesson for me of like, but it's all fine. Like it's not what you expected, but you're fine. Everything's fine. Everything's worked out. And you've gone on this crazy adventure.

And I'm now sitting here having a beautiful chat with Sophie Elis-Pexta. Like who would have thought that would have happened? Like just so many amazing things happen when you just kind of let go of the outcome and just kind of go, yeah, let's just do it. Like let's just see what happens. And I'm learning to let go. And it feels really nice. And do you think, that's gorgeous, do you think that that lesson will expand to your mother, how you mother your children as well? I hope so. I'm sure they hope so.

Because I am, I'm, yeah, I hold on quite a lot, I think. I think especially, I don't know, everyone's different as a parent, but it's like, it's so hard to be a lot. I think, I think especially, I don't know, everyone's different as a parent, but it's like, it's so hard to be a parent. You literally are like taking parts of your heart and like flicking it out into the world and be like, make good choices. Don't get into trouble. So I can be really, you know, my kids are, I don't know about yours, my kids are 9, 11 and 14 and I still make all their food. Like even if it's like it's school holidays and even if they just want lunch, I'll be like, I'll come and make it. Like they are so old enough to make it themselves. But I know if they make themselves lunch, they will just make a peanut butter sandwich.

And I know if I make it, I'll go to the effort of making them like a chicken salad sandwich and I'll put some carrot sticks on the side and they'll eat it all if I give it to them. But if I leave it to them, they're not going to go do that. So it's those parts of me that I'm like, I'm still, I'm still a little bit like a little bit too structured and controlled. But I'm like, you know, I'm exactly the same. I think I'm recognizing I might be a type A as well. I definitely like to know the parameters. I'll look up things in our house when I'm not working, when it's a family holiday, I'm the tour manager. I'll book all the flights, I'll work everything out.

I like that bit of order as well. It makes my brain feel neat. And I still do all the stuff for my kids too. I think it's also because, firstly, I'm a bit of a control freak. I find it really hard to delegate. Also, I feel like the majority of your life is not like that.

So you might as well make the bit where they're at home under my roof. 100%. So what if that continues? This will always be home. I'll always be mom. Like that's what they leave from. I agree 100%.

And I'm like, it would be nice to, to be able to go, Oh, it's breakfast just sorted out yourself. But I also, I love being mum and I love making them a little plate of food and then thanks mum. Like, you know, that's not gonna be forever. Did you grow up with, have you got siblings? I do, but they're much older. So when I was born, my brother was eight and my sister was 10.

So by the time I was kind of like, when I was eight, my brother was 16 and my sister was 18. So it did feel in a lot of ways like I was a single child because I can remember being a kid and, you know, I don't know, going on holidays with just mum and dad, because my brother and sister were like 18 and 20 or 20 and 22 and they had jobs and lives and stuff. So if mum and dad went away for the weekend, it would be just me going with them. So I didn't have that really close family, I'm very, very close with my siblings, but I didn't have that close upbringing with them. Yeah, that shared childhood and everything. Yeah, yeah, that shared childhood, that's what I was trying to say. Yeah. And is your mum someone that you were sharing your experience with Hugo with?

Yes. Yes. And my mum actually, so she had a baby when she was 16 and gave it up for adoption. But then when that was my sister Jill, when she was 21, she kind of found us. So I've known Jill since I was I think about seven or eight which was so great for me. I pretty much don't remember not having Jill in our life. So that was really fascinating that my mum had this like completely different but similar experience of you know she was pregnant with a baby that wasn't to be hers, that she wasn't going to raise

it. Wow, that is fascinating. Yeah. I need another hour now. We'll do a part two another time. It does make you think that pregnancy, I wonder if you're very aware now of how we talk about pregnancy and about all the types of pregnancy that fall outside of the one that we celebrate in the typical, all the other versions of it. And all the other versions of it.

It's a small club, but it's still a club that you're part of, you know. Yes, it's a tiny little club, but it also, I think it's widened my perspective of what makes a family too, I think, because before, it's my husband and I and our three kids, we are just such a, like, traditional family. Like we're heterosexual man and woman, three kids, two girls and a boy. Like you couldn't get more cookie cutter. And this is just, it certainly expands my horizon. I mean, I'd never done IVF until I did this.

And wow, that's a lot. Like, it's a lot that women put themselves through just to be able to have the baby even. It's like three or four months of prep of getting my uterus ready and all the things you have to do. It's a lot. But it's really widened my perspective of what makes a family. There are so many things that make a family and you don't have to give birth to the child or it doesn't even have to be your genes for it to be family. Like there's a number of ways that we have that closeness and that bond. Oh, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. The word family to me has always had that,

I mean, we go back to it, that expansive quality to it. And you mentioned that your dad's not around. I'm sorry he's not here to see this, because I think he would be so blown away by what you've done. Oh, thank you. What an incredible thing. Thank you so much for your time, Sarah. It's been a really beautiful conversation. Totally in awe of you.

I think it's wonderful. And I love the fact that it was described that way, that expansive, because I think that covers it really well. But at the core of it, I feel like it's, you know, the sort of main themes are about love and empathy and kindness and all the good stuff. And the more you put that out into the world, the more like it ripples outwards. So you've done a wonderful thing for your family,

for your friend, but it will ripple out and out and out. Thank you, that is so lovely. And I'm so grateful that along the way we connected and... How nice is that, yeah. So it's beautiful. Thank you. Yeah, really beautiful. How amazing is that conversation? Honestly, you know I love doing this podcast, but having chats with people like Sarah is honestly like, why do it?

It's extraordinary. It's a privilege hearing these stories, hearing what humans can go through, what they will do for each other. So special. Plus, I loved all Sarah's wisdom about money. What a smart woman. Anyway, I think the thing that I've taken from it as well is she's obviously very eloquent and I thought so much about that word expansive when she said it's an expansive experience for her kids, for her family. Oh golly, I'm about to go past a very noisy truck.

Bear with me, I'm actually gonna run past it. Here we go, I'm running past the truck. Ha ha. It's cleaning the gutters. It's doing a good job, but it does not respect my role as podcaster. Ha ha ha. Or codpasta, as my friend Lisa referred to it the other day.

Ha ha ha. I think she did it by accident. or codpasta as my friend Lisa referred to the other day. I think she did it by accident trying to insult me. Anyway, yes, the word expansive. I thought, isn't it brilliant to be able to find a word that looks upon how things can enrich you. It doesn't mean it's not sometimes challenging, doesn't bring out some stuff that's hard, but ultimately you end up being a changed person because of it, with broader horizons. And if that's not a thing to try and scoop up in this experience of life, then I don't know what is.

Anyway, thank you so much to Sarah. It was a joy to talk and another unforgettable conversation for me. And thank you to you for lending me your ears, of course. That's the part of the puzzle I love. And thank you to Claire Jones for producing, Richard for editing, Elema for artwork. Thank you to the rain for not starting just yet. Thank you for the coffee that is waiting for me at the cafe at the end of this school run. It's always my carrot on a stick. Can't wait.

I'm ready for it. And yeah, here's to a nice week, thanks. I have yet more coming your way next week. I'm trying to think in my mind as to who I week thanks. I have yet more coming your way next week. I'm trying to think in my mind's eye who ever got it. Oh yeah, good one. Okay, perfect. The beat goes on baby. See you next week. I'm gonna be the one to make you feel better I'm gonna be the one to make you feel better I'm gonna be the one to make you feel better I'm gonna be the one to make you feel better

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