Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 145: Abbie Ward

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

Abbie Ward is a professional rugby union player who plays at international level for England and at club level for Bristol Bears.Abbie grew up in Cumbria in a very active family and tried out many sports before discovering rugby which she describes as a love affair she didn't see coming!She is married to former Harlequins hooker Dave Ward, who is also her head coach, and together they have a daughter Hallie who was born in the summer of 2023.Abbie trained up till 3 days before she had Hallie by C-section and was back at Bristol Bears 2 weeks after the birth. She remains in regular talks with England about how to make her career work alongside bringing up Hallie, who is no stranger to the dressing room or to being carried onto the pitch by her mum before a match. Hallie shows no fear of a huge, loud rugby crowd - and is living up to her name, which Abbie and Dave have found out means 'Ruler of the House'! Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Select games only. Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires played by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded or 11 p.m. Eastern. Research and supply. See full terms at canada.casino.fando.com. Please play responsibly. ["Spinning Plates"] Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexter and welcome to Spinning Plates,

the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons age 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates.

Well, this might be the trickiest place I've recorded for you. I'm in a bowling alley, guys. My second born son is 16 and if anyone out there has gone through this chapter of child raising, knows that I am here at the birthday party in the capacity of bag watcher, transport coordinator, chaperone, credit card. I'm not participating in the party, there's minimum eye contact, and yeah, all seems to be going all right.

How's that? It's coming, Kit. Your drink is on the way. and yeah all seems to be going alright. It's coming Kit. Your drink is on the way. They do table service. What are you doing? I'm recording an intro for my podcast. That was my child. I thought for a minute he'd noticed I was gone but actually he was just checking his drink was on the way, which it is. Actually, where I am, they do like an app where you can order your drink, and then if you, it's added like a whopping service charge, and I thought, I'm not paying that on one drink.

I went over to their bar, ordered it, and then they just put it on it anyway. So, I could've just sat where I was. That's fascinating, innit? Anyway, I tell you what is genuinely fascinating, it's my guest this week. I first reached out to Abbie Ward, would have probably been the middle of last year,

maybe actually May or something, because I heard about a documentary of this fantastic woman who plays for, represents England, you know, national level for rugby, and how she'd gone back to playing rugby within like four months after giving birth and I was like wowzers. Her name is Abbey Ward and she's pretty formidable in all directions actually. She has a really fantastic way of framing her thoughts. I don't know if this

is the sportswoman in her or if that's the thing that gives her aptitude because obviously with sport it's about your ability but it's also about your mindset and I loved how she frames her thoughts. She's got a gorgeous bubba for Hallie. Hallie is about 18 months now and she set herself a goal. Her husband is coach to Bristol Beacons, Bristol Bears rather, sorry. Bristol Beacon is a venue I'm playing at. She's not, his husband's not coach for the venue. Bristol Bears.

And so together with his support, she said he's been very supportive. She said this is what I want to do. She was in training at the gym two days before giving birth. Still going to train with her Bristol teammates. Giving them something of an icon someone to look up to who's done something that maybe they might do one day. How to combine motherhood on the field and training.

And then yeah yeah gave birth was back at the gym within two weeks and back playing within 16. Pretty formidable but actually I think the main thing I took away from our conversation wasn't just I'm impressed I wasn't what she achieved but actually the way she thinks about her life and the positivity that comes along with it really really healthy lovely outlook on life. Anyway I will leave you with a chat. Sorry about all the noise. And, ooh, thanks Kit.

Someone's giving Kit some cash for his birthday. Sweet 16, baby. All right, see you on the other side. ["The Last Supper"] Well, firstly, it's so lovely to meet you, Abby, thank you so much for talking to me today. The more I've been researching, got to know things about you, the more excited I became. You're clearly quite a woman, so firstly taking my invisible hat off to you. That's a lot of pressure, I think you're maybe overselling me.

Oh no, no, but in a really wonderful way. I just think it's, I can see that so much of your motivation is all coming from, is self-generated and I'm quite, I always find people that have got that focus about themselves and pushing themselves and putting challenges and then really striving for it. Putting the work in, I find it really, I find it inspiring but also I find it motivating. It's a good energy. So today we sit and tomorrow you said you have a match. So what kind of prep happens with you before you have a match?

So the day before really, all the preparations happened in the week in training, whether that's the physical preparation or the strategic preparation. So today actually it's a day off. It's time to relax and it's quite nice. whether that's the physical preparation or the strategic preparation. So today actually it's a day off, it's time to relax and it's quite nice. I can do things like this, some stuff that's not rugby, because I think it's important to have that mental switch off as well. A lot of eating today, making sure that my energy stores are in the right place so that tomorrow it's an early kick off that I'm ready to go, ready to be out on the pitch and perform. So is that always the case

the day before is a rest day? Yeah. And what kind of food is the thing you're looking for? We really switch our intake from you know throughout the week it's probably balanced when we have tough physical days there'll be more protein today it's about the carbs so it's quite. It's like just eat as many carbs as you want. It's almost like a cheat day. Yeah. So yeah, it's kind of the green light to get stuck in. Yeah and I imagine that the sort of, you know, cogs are quite well oiled now when it comes to what you need mentally to get yourself in the right headspace? Yeah, they are. It's interesting though because I think you're always developing, you're always changing

and it's something that I've acknowledged that's something that maybe worked for me 10 years ago doesn't mean that it necessarily works now. Like you've got this ongoing evolution so even in this last two years with the changes with motherhood, being out of the squad, then coming back in, I'm trying to mix it up. I'm trying to see if there's anything that might work better than it did before, or if I've got different needs or yeah.

So I'm not necessarily stuck in one way. I think that's important because also stuff can happen, unforeseen things can happen before a game. And that means that you can't always have the same routine. If you get stuck in a routine and then that doesn't go to plan, I think sometimes people might panic or might feel unease. So yeah, I try and keep fluid, but I'm also this year, I've been very much about trying out different things,

different music, different food, even the way that I wear my hair differently, to see what I actually want. I actually really, I wasn't expecting to, but I really can relate to that in terms of gigs and work and pressure because I sometimes meet people where before something, a performance, they have all these set things they need to do, little touchstones. And that idea actually would make me feel like I'm more reliant on things. So the more I can be self-reliant and then all the extra unknowns can just do their thing and I'm still going to be kind of okay in the middle of it, the better I can just get on with it. It's extraordinary how much

is up here, isn't it? Rather than. Yeah, absolutely. And you know what works for you to a degree and you know what you can control. So I'm not completely flying by the seat of my pants, nothing that's prepared. I've got my stuff prepared, but then, yeah, I think change up every now and again is good.

It's good to have your policy of what you like and what you do and how you go about things. But I think change up to keep things fresh is always good. And then also, feeling comes into it, doesn't it? So maybe if I've had a good game and I did something before that game a little bit different, maybe I'll try that again. Because I think, did that help?

And I don't know if you feel like that before performances or actually I really enjoyed that performance. So what was it about that that helped me enjoy it or helped me perform? performances or you know like actually I really enjoyed that performance so what was it about that that helped me enjoy it or help me perform and for me like it's the same as every player do you find that ever? A little bit but also I smiled to myself when you said it's not really seat of my pants I can see from the little I know of you I don't think seat of your pants is much of a phrase that would enter into your life very much because I see that you take time to

really listen to yourself and plan. How significant is it that your sport is a team sport versus if people who do these things solo? Yeah, very significant and very significant in terms of the last year and a half in having Halle because you can't go off on your own agenda. Everything is dictated by what the team's doing. So, for example, my training day, I can't suddenly change it around.

In fact, it doesn't work with me because I want to do something else in the afternoon. That doesn't work. I can't say everybody, we're going to train at one o'clock as opposed to 7.30 at night. Like you're reliant on so many different individuals. You're one part of that, and you're probably quite an, like,

in the, can't speak, the insignificant part of that. So, like, it is really important, and, yeah, I think we talk at Bristol about accommodating. That's one of our values, to accommodate, because we've got so many people in so many different situations. We've got people that work as well as play. It's actually the minority that are professional players. So yeah, I think I've learned that the game also doesn't stop for you. The team

doesn't stop for you. I took that time out with Halle for, what was it, about a year and the game didn't stop. The game moved on, the team moved on, and it was up to about a year and a year and the game didn't stop. The game moved on, the team moved on and it was up to me to try and catch up and fit back in and as much as they wanted to accommodate me, they couldn't pause for a second. And because you've touched on it already, can I just get the framework when you mentioned

about people being professional and not? Because this is something I was sort of learning about to try and get my head around it. So the professionals, is this, if you play for England, you're a professional? So the way it works with us, yeah. The internationals are professional. So we're contracted to our union.

So I would be contracted to England and that's how I'm professional, they pay my salary. Then we're seconded out to our clubs. So we also play for club. But no of very few players are solely professional through their club contracts, because we're not at that level yet. We don't get paid enough through club.

Some players won't get anything like that is the level that clubs at. So what's great is England introduced contracts. Then we saw the Scottish team introduced contracts, the Welsh team, the Irish team. So when I started at Bears four years ago, Bristol Bears, there was four of us that were professional. So we'd come in the day and there would just be four of us

and we'd have to wait until five, six p.m. when the rest of the team had finished work and would be able to get in to do our main session. Whereas now, yesterday, I'm in at training and there's, I would say, nearing 20 professional players. And then we still have the other half of the team, which are 20 people who are either working full-time, part-time, or students that will join.

But even in three or four years, it's kind of gone from four to twenty which is yeah which is great. I was gonna say it must have, I imagine a lot of what you're speaking about is quite recent history but it sounds like it's moving at a real pace. Oh yeah. It must be really an exciting time to be doing what you do. It is, it's I think my career as well where I started from it was so amateur. I remember getting my first England cap and there must have been 30 people watching, Wales away in these grotty changing rooms. Yeah, it was a special day, so special, but that's where Women's Rugby was.

Fast forward and you know yourself, the Twickenham Games, which you got to do the halftime show and there's 60 plus thousand and that is within my career and we've also gone from amateur to professional contracts, maternity policies. I remember when I was playing at club in the northeast, premiership and you'd have to pay to play so you'd pay six pounds if you started four off the bench three if you're a student and Paid you one pound fifty for a jack-o-potato after the game now That is just worlds apart to the professional game that we've got today But it's it's been quite special to experience that transition to kind of be at the forefront asking questions trying to force that transition and force that movement. And I know that I won't receive, in my career, I won't receive all the benefits of the work

we've done. That'll come for the players after me, but I'm really excited for them as well. Yeah, well, I guess you're part of something that's, the battle is being passed down to you, and now you're passing it. And it's a real kind of leave the world better than you find it. 3D, you can see the impact and having the conversations of being part of the change and part of the progression. I mean going from 30 people watching to 60,000 to Econem is like, speaks for itself. And it's surreal because I never imagined it would be like that, really never imagined it and it's you-yourself moments when you're there. All these people have come to watch us chase a ball. That seems crazy to me, like absurd.

And all the people that stay behind after and invest their time, their energy, their shouting for you and your team. And do you ever find that where you just think, this is wild when all these people have come to support and sing along? Well I guess it's a different thing slightly because music historically has that communal for a crowd whereas for sport the emphasis can be just on the people participating in the game. You know, when my kids are playing football, they're having a great time and they're not necessarily what people watch. I mean, there's me sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah. I saw, yeah, well done. But you know, it's the impetus and the satisfaction can come from without that. Whereas I think with live performance and music, it's, it's so dependent on the dialogue back and forth with the crowd. It's kind of part of its lifeblood I think. But we will absolutely get to talk about Halle and your beauty because you're so cute, your baby, blimey. 18 months old now. But I think to

understand how it worked for you as a new mum, I first want to understand your relationship with rugby because I think that's so crucial to how it all took shape. So what does rugby mean to you? Such a good question. Rugby is like this. I love rugby and it's this relationship that I never it was a completely by chance by mistake. Growing up I'm from a very active family. I'm from the Lake District where there's lots going on. I wanted to be involved in any sport that was going on, whether that was hockey, football, cricket.

My family were very active, so that was kayaking, skiing. And rugby was just another club that I could go to. I always wanted, I remember writing down, I want to be an athlete, I want to be, I didn't actually know that you really could be an athlete. I saw lots of male athletes, I didn't really know many women because there wasn't the exposure. But I just loved it and there was a time where I was like,

yeah, I'm going to go into athletics, and you know, I wasn't that great at athletics, I was okay. And then it was like, well, I'm going to go into athletics. And I wasn't that great at athletics. I was okay. And then it was like, well, I'm going to play everything into tennis and then kind of reach my ceiling. The same with football. And I kept reaching these ceilings, but still going along trying every sport. But rugby, I just kept going through to the next stage.

And it was never my intention to be a professional rugby player, one, because it wasn't a profession. So I remember when I was going through the age groups and I got invited to county and then North trials and then under 20s and went to university and my plan was to eventually become a lawyer. I went to study history and politics and rugby wasn't really on the agenda. I ended up at Northumbria University in Newcastle and they had a fantastic program. So I ended up involved in the rugby program while studying history and politics and got

invited to play for the England women's team. And suddenly I found myself thinking, I want to do this, which was a really difficult conversation to have when it wasn't a job. In my head, I was thinking, yeah, this is what I want to do. To have those conversations with my dad and he's saying, maybe you shouldn't be playing as much rugby, maybe you need to concentrate on your career. I'm thinking, well, yeah, I want rugby to be my career, even though it's not. That was a very difficult period of my life. I couldn't, I found it, I struggled with the notion that a boy or a man could go on and have a career in rugby,

but a woman couldn't. And I, you know, struggled with those conversations with my dad where I said, you know, if I was your son, we wouldn't be having this chat. You would be like, go do it. You're going to earn loads. You're going to have the best time, you're going to travel the world. But because I was his daughter, the conversation wasn't the same. And I think I've always kind of seen these ceilings or these glass ceilings and I've wanted to just smash them down. And I've just been so, I don't know, headstrong, determined. Maybe I just want to, you know, battle against what everyone's telling you you can do or you can't do. And rugby was that thing for me and I loved playing it, but I also loved the journey of, right, I'm going to go and do it. And I remember

after I was involved in the 2017 World Cup in Ireland, I'd finished my degree and we'd had contracts for that little period, but then they pulled them. So we were contracted for like seven months and then we came second. So we lost in the final and they pulled the contracts, which we were like, this is crazy. But in my head, I was like, they're going to come back. It's a matter of time. So I'm just going to be what I like to call fun employed.

Whereas I'm going to be a professional rugby player without there being any money. I'm going to go and do it and put my all into it because they will come back at some point. So I made that gamble, moved down to Harlequins in London, which is where I met my husband. And the gamble paid off and they reintroduced contracts and I've been professional since. So I don't know, my relationship with rugby, it's like this, I guess, this love affair that I didn't see come in. And I think I look at my relationship with rugby as like this curve where I've just put so much into it and it's given me so much back. But I know like it's kind of dawning on me

that I'm in the second half of my career. So at some point, you know, that relationship will change and it's sad to think at some point I'll have to step away. But for now I'm just enjoying it, trying to change the game, trying to work with the momentum that the women who played before me have kind of given the sport. Yeah.

Yeah, it's something special. I mean, yeah, there's so much in what you said that I feel I could pick up on. Firstly, because I was thinking, so you were training up until two days before you had your baby, which by the way is incredible. I think it's really cool. And then you had a C-section to have her and then your back training at the legal minimum requirement to find a room. I think it was almost to the minute.

It's been two weeks. It passed me the dumbbell. But I was thinking that's not something that's going to come from you just in that pocket of your life. There's going to have been something about the way that you tick that makes that seem not only a possible path, but also something that gave you what you needed in terms of your heads. And so when you were saying about, you know, being headstrong, quite liking this, like like little fight of like, you know what, I'm going to do it anyway.

There must be something in you that kind of likes that. Okay, you've actually put a log on the fire and now I'm going to push myself a bit harder. But also I suppose for you and your peers who've gone from pre-professional to professional, it's quite a unifying thing that you've all gone through this love affair that was quite pure at the beginning of I just want to play this game. It's not going toifying thing that you've all gone through this love affair that was quite pure at the beginning of, I just want to play this game, it's not going to be paying my bills, I have to be on that pitch. That's quite a thing really. Yeah, it is.

And you know what, I was thinking about it recently, like where that's come from in terms of that internal drive and design, I think it's kind of always been there. I think back when I was 15, for some reason at school I decided I wanted to change schools because I wanted to invest more in sport and our school was kind of pulling back a little bit. I remember going off by myself researching all these different schools and finding this school, Sedber School, it was a boarding school. My family's very working class,

no one had ever been to boarding school. Finding all this information, finding out how you could get funding, bursary scholarships and pitching this business plan to my parents. Which when I look back, I think, what 15 year old does that, manages to convince their parents

come on an open day? And if I can get the fun, if I can get the scholarships, if I remember speaking to aunties, uncles, grandparents being like, if you pay this and this and this, we could eventually get there. And yeah, that must be, I think it must come from my parents, from my upbringing, that's given me that to enable me to do what I do. But at the same time, I think like you said, that being part of a team, I think there's always been this feeling, particularly in, you know, the last couple of years, that yes, I'm doing it for myself, but I'm doing it for more than myself.

Yeah I can see that. So doing it for the girls. Yeah and you've always got the conversations going alongside and you can you know a shared shared goal, excuse the pun, but when you were, did you always want to be a mother? Was that always something you saw on Horizon? Yeah I think so. Yeah, definitely. I just remember growing up, I've got three brothers and like the adventures that we did

and my mum was really inspiring. She, you know, was very hardworking, very independent. My parents separated when I was very young, but my mum would just take us on loads of adventures by herself. She would take us skiing and we didn't have the money for ski lessons but she just would teach us. One of my brothers wanted to snowboard so he got a how to snowboard book for Christmas. Here you go, teach yourself. And then me and my other brother Fraser it was like...

Your mum must be really quite chilled as well. Oh yeah, very chilled. Oh do, is it ready? Yeah, I don't necessarily have the same chillness as she does, but it's something that I definitely admire. So yeah, I think I always wanted to be a mum to have those experiences with my own kids. And how many people did you know that had played rugby professionally,

had the baby and come back to work, like you? So there's been a few people that I was aware of. A girl I played with, Dav, at Harlequins. She'd done that. Deborah Wills, who's at Bristol Bears, she'd also done the same. And Emma Kroger, who played for England, had done the same. So it was great to have a reference point of those guys. I think the difference was that, not necessarily the era, because Debs is still playing now, but the difference of the needs of, and the stresses, and the asks of an amateur player

versus a professional player. So they were all working alongside, which in some guises makes it so much harder. But in other guises, like, because I was professional, I had a lot more support of the SNC coaches, the nutritionists, physios, the doctors, but also the demands of the game, of the professional game, of the professional setup was a lot harder too.

Yeah, completely. And I think playing at that level and then you were back so quickly and I was watching an interview with you and you were saying that you had a complete plan of how that might look. So, what was your, did your plan go as you had hoped? It did and I think I was lucky and fortunate with those that were around me. I've had a few different injuries in my career so I've done both my ACLs, had a hip injury. So I'm used to, or I've been used to periods of time out. It was really interesting because a normal injury, even if you're out for a year, you're playing, playing, playing, bang, this one event, and then you're at like your start point. So you have your operation, then you start point and you build up.

What I found quite hard in the beginning was with the pregnancy, it wasn't like this one event where then like you have to start from scratch because through my pregnancy, I continued to train. But as each day or week went on, there was less I could do. So it was a really sloping down.

So for example, we do speed sessions every week. So our running mechanics and top speed. And each week they put up, you know, who's run the fastest or how fast you've run. And I had to get used to, instead of that upward trajectory of getting quicker because I'm working on it, each week just getting slower and slower and moving down this chart

and having to have conversation with the SNC coach being like, maybe we should just take me out of that now because we know it's only going to get worse, which is something that I've never had to deal with before. Up until that point where obviously I gave birth to Hallie and then it was like, okay, now we can start building back up. And did it feel demotivating if you're so used to seeing building

or were you quite forgiving of yourself because you're pregnant? I think a bit of both. It was hard because I was like, I'm just going to get slower, I'm just going to get slower, and you can see it happening over a long period of time, and you can't do anything about it until five months down the line when you've given birth and you start building back up.

So that was difficult, and I had to be like, right, okay, let's just take me out of those bits because mentally it's going to do nothing for me, see my name slipping down the charts. But also just, I think, being kind to myself, knowing that it was for a great reason and it was awesome. And actually, how empowering, doing those speed sessions with a full pregnant belly and Halle probably

on the inside holding on thinking, Mom, what are we doing? Yeah, that was really special too. And I think nice to share that with the girls and for them to see, because I'd never seen it. I didn't have that reference point, whereas they could look across and be like, wow, that's what a mom can do.

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to win one of three $100 Amazon gift cards. That way we can say thanks for your opinion. Just go to mypodcastsurvey.ca and have your say. That's mypodcastsurvey.ca. I think I get the impression from you that obviously you did have all these plans and goals that you were setting for yourself, but actually there was flexibility in the walls if it just became not the way things were going. So long as things stayed roughly on track, you could kind of go, well, how does this work for me and can I still do this? And oh, you know, roughly on track, you could kind of go, well, how does this work for me? And can I still do this?

And, oh, I can. That's great. It felt like there's, you still kind of kept a nurture and the edges of things, but also a wonder about, about this extraordinary journey. As you say, I've like being like, I can do these beats. I'm still doing it. Yeah. That is really cool.

And I think you'll always be able to look back on that and be like, yeah, that was me. There's some amazing pictures I've seen of you with your training, with the bump when you must have been probably about eight months or something. So cool. It was cool.

And I think what was also special about it is because no one at the club or at England had been through it with a player. I was the first player in those setups to go through it. No one had any idea what to expect. No one had any idea what to expect, and I had no idea what to expect. Suddenly I notify the coaches, okay, I'm pregnant, and they're like, right, obviously we've got to go away,

look at the literature, what can Abby do, what can't she do, we know she wants to train throughout, so how do we accommodate that? And I remember that first session, the S&C coach being like, okay, we're going to take all the weight off, you're going to do your deadlifts with a kettlebell, just one hour. And I was there doing this movement thinking, why am I doing this? Because if I hadn't told him yesterday, then I'd still be doing exactly the same. And we kind of looked at each, we had this moment where we just looked at each other.

And I shook my head, I was like, this is ridiculous. He was like, yeah, it is actually. But I think there's always been the, you know, I think what they've told people, the advice that they've given that is now so historic, that is starting to catch up. So now it's much more like, do what is your normal. So if you're used to running every day,

you can run every day. If you're used to training and doing certain things and absolutely, like as long as it's safe and you've got that guidance, which I did have, then yeah, I actually found I could turn up the heat in some of my training and was lifting heavier when I was pregnant than I think I probably am now, which was crazy. And again, it just felt so empowering to be doing that.

And I remember the girls saying, like, looking at me while I was cleaning over my bump and catching like these barbells. And they were like, that is mad. And they were like, oh, you've really taken every excuse away from us. You know, if they're having a bad day, they're like. But yeah, it's something that I am also, when I find bits hard now, I'm kind of in awe of myself during that period. And I'm like the strength that I had, and I think I can take from that.

Yeah, so long as you keep the kindness in there so it doesn't become this sort of impossible goal of a thing you did once, so therefore should always be, because there's always so many things, so many factors. And I'd imagine you know your body in a way that's much better than the average person. So how did you, I mean, I think it's, it's completely surrounded with positivity,

but was there any worries about how you would get back in shape and how it would feel on the other side? Because it's such a question mark, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. Definitely. There were so many questions. I really struggled with morning sickness throughout the pregnancy. So even I think the last week of having Halle, like, you know, feeling very nauseous having to take medication. You poor thing, that's a long time to feel sick.

Yeah, and even to begin with, not wanting or being able to tell the squad, but I was being sick so I was training, having to run off, be sick, come back, like nothing had happened. And the only one of the things that really helped me that was just constantly snacking. And so I did find, obviously I couldn't train as much, I was still training a lot, but my body composition dramatically changed. So I think at my, like the week kind of that I had Hallie, I was maybe 110 kilos. I'm about 82 now.

So that's like quite a big difference. And like, that's not necessarily a bad thing at all because my body was in like peak condition for what it was doing, which was nurturing this baby. But it wasn't in peak condition for a rugby player and an athlete. So I did struggle with that, not whilst I was pregnant, because whilst I was pregnant, I was like,

this is amazing, I loved it, I loved my bump, I loved everything about it. But I think as soon as suddenly Halle was here with me and my body was no longer that home for Halle, I then started to look at my body as an athlete again, which wasn't always the most positive thing because you can't bounce back, you can't snap back. It takes time, it takes effort, it takes a lot out of you mentally.

So again, it was just constantly reminding myself to be kind, that it will happen like any of the previous times that I've been out of shape or been injured. It's a process. So yeah, I think that was tough and I think it's something that has been an ongoing struggle. Like I said, you don't just suddenly get back to a point. I got back to the point of playing, but I wasn't necessarily back to the point of international performance. So it was something that I had to keep working on. Presumably the people around you, your teammates, your partner, your family, they would probably have been aware that, oh, she's going to find some aspects of this challenging, just because that is the nature of the beast a little bit. You do have to like

a challenge just because that is the nature of the beast a little bit. You do have to like recalibrate but things are not the same as before. Most of it can be great but some of it is like a new chapter in lots of ways. Your body has shifted and it goes into a new version of you in a way. So it is a process. It is and there's bits about it that are amazing because you're like, Oh God, I'm capable of these things. I never knew I was, but there's also a version of yourself that is just, she's

just not completely there the same way, which is a lot, and some of that's, some of that's, some of it's literal, some of it is emotional. So how was, what about your head space for that first match? Did you find it like an easy thing to get back into that gear or was it shift? Yeah, the first game, now that was, it was a crazy week because we had a midweek game the week before. So we had a Wednesday game, which was against the army

and it was just a friendly game. I wasn't due to play that, I was due to play the opening round of the Premiership against Sale, but I went to that game to do a warm-up, you know, go through the motions as part of my preparation to play. Halle had a little bit of a cold that we'd kept an eye on, and she was, because it was an evening game on the Wednesday, she was with Dave's parents and on our way to pick her up they were like, yeah she's not very well, I think maybe you should go

to the hospital with her, which is obviously very alarming as a parent, so we took her in and we'd been in with her previously because as a new parent there's all sorts of things that you think, is this right, is that right, you know, and we'd been in with something previously and we were there in A&E waiting for ages and ages and ages. I remember saying at the time to Dave, well, it must be good news because if there was anything wrong with her, we'd be seen kind of straight away.

So you almost don't mind waiting as long. This time when we took her in, we were seen pretty quickly and it turned out Halle was fairly unwell. When they did the test, they came back and said, she's got three of the big viruses. So RSV, I don't know, virus and rhinovirus, which was, you know, it was like, okay. And they were like, we can't do anything for her.

She's got to fight the viruses. All we can do is just like support her with like oxygen and feeding tube and stuff like that. And it was a very, very scary time with a 16 week old baby. So from that Wednesday, we were in hospital for maybe five nights with her. And I stayed at the hospital every night, well, pretty much for the whole time. I think I went out for one coffee to get out of the room whilst Dave was there.

But it's very intense, it's very all consuming. But what's so funny, not funny about kids is how quickly they bounce back. I was pretty much traumatized from that experience. It was awful. But also stuff like that really puts everything into perspective, stuff that you're worrying about on day to day.

You're like, is that really a worry? Like if everyone is fit and healthy and happy, that is the stuff that you actually care about. So in terms of where my head was at going into that game in preparation, I just spent five nights in the hospital. But rugby is my escape. It's what I've done, it seems like forever. It's going back to rugby pitch, being in that environment. It's just muscle memory. So there was the question whether I'd be involved or not, but we were like, actually, that's what I kind of needed to have that hour at training where I could just escape the manicness

and know that obviously Halle was so much better. She was crawling around the house, well, she wasn't crawling, but nothing had happened, just a happy smiley self. And meanwhile I'm still trying to get over it, but rugby was my escape. So it was definitely a different head space to any of the game that I've ever played in. But it was also, in a way, a good distraction.

Because I was not worried about my performance, that was the last thing on my mind. So it was all about Halle, so I wasn't thinking, oh, am I ready to play? I was like, yeah, I'm playing because that's what I know. Yeah, I can relate to that actually. And also, there's a feeling that when you're, you're training or when you're on the pitch, you are so in that moment and no one else can come running over to you and ask you some random question about something or interrupt it. That is what you are doing. That is where you are.

It's incredibly in the moment, all things firing. And there's a privilege in being able to have work that has that kind of immediacy. And I mean, we're speaking about you having your baby as if it was like, well, that was that bit. That's that done. But obviously Halle's now a really active 18 month old. So like, and so it goes. And I actually think when it comes to work and raising a child, there's so many stages where you think,

oh, I was worrying a lot about the baby bit, but actually it gets, it mutates and morphs and it can get more questions being asked. You can feel more of a wrench when you have to leave. How are you finding the here and now of it? Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? I went into the whole pregnancy with kind of equal parts, you know, optimism, excitement, naivety and ignorance,

and that's, I think, how you go into every stage of parenthood, really, when it's for the first time. And I think, who was I kidding when I thought that the hardest bit was going to be getting back to playing? That was the easy bit. The pregnancy was the easy bit, even with all the different struggles. And even that first year, the RFU, England Rugby brought in this policy, this maternity

policy and that when you came back, it kind of covered you up until your baby is one and I guess because no I don't think any any of us thought about this part and it's just been a bit of an oversight to be honest and that's something that we're working on because I think we've all admitted oh we really didn't prepare for this part you mean after the year is up yeah so I had the support Halle could come into camp with me she could travel with me if needed. They'd pay for someone to come in with her to look after her whilst I'm training and then it got up to in the policy she's one and then it was like, oh no, that doesn't happen anymore and we've all admitted that does not work. It doesn't just suddenly your baby turns one and they're independent and

you also don't mind being away from them that it gets I think more intense like you said. So I went out to Vancouver for our WXV tournament so our World 15 tournament in was it September for three and a half weeks and we couldn't work it for Hallie to come out and that And that was really tough. Because that's, it is a long time. I've done that. In a block.

And yeah, I did really struggle. But I also tried to take it for what it was, which was the first time since Hallie, where I had no responsibilities. I had as much free time away from training as I wanted. I could say yes to coffee in the morning, lunch out, and then going and doing something in the evening. And yeah, I tried to enjoy it as much as possible

and it was really refreshing. But the thing that I found probably the most difficult is then the transition. So when I'm at camp, then when I come home, and it's so amazing coming home. But suddenly when, you. So when I'm at camp, then when I come home. And it's so amazing coming home. But suddenly when I'm in camp and I've got days off that I'm just basically not doing anything, just eating, drinking coffee, chatting to the girls.

I find days off, they're much more tiring than my days in training. I mean, I love them. They're so great. Like every day spent with Hallie every morning. It's just amazing. But it is tiring. And where as an athlete previously, you'd have rest days, recovery days, they don't quite look the same. So I think I'm now navigating this period of like how I do both and do both well because I think I'm forever torn trying to be the best athlete, the best rugby player and then be the best

mum, the best wife, the best partner and those things contradict each other and what they need contradict each other so it's making sure I mean there's so much guilt isn't there in motherhood it's making sure that I mean, there's so much guilt isn't there in motherhood. It's making sure that when I'm away from Hallie, concentrating on rugby, I'm not feeling guilty about not being there because I do. In Vancouver, I felt incredibly guilty that I was gallivanting away in Canada whilst Dave's at home with Hallie and I'm missing things. Likewise, when I'm having a day off with Halle and Dave and not doing analysis or not doing an extra session, feeling incredibly guilty that I'm not being the best athlete.

But I think there's a happy medium. And like I said, it's about navigating it. And I think you're always going to get bits wrong. And that's okay. It's not going to work first time. But I think particularly with the year ahead that we have, the Six Nations coming up, the World Cup in England, it's such an exciting time.

But for me, I'm very aware and in talks currently with England about how we can make it work and include Halley in that. I always say a happy player makes a good player. So to make sure that I feel comfortable, happy, so does Hallie. And then that I think will reflect my performances on the pitch. I mean, wow, you seem like,

you've already learned so many things that I think took me so much longer to get my head around. And you put it so eloquently when you said about wanting to be the best in all aspects of your life and how inherently is a contradiction, it's just not possible. That's just so well put. And we haven't really mentioned Dave so much, he's come up a bit, but obviously he's also, it sounds like you guys are really working together and have to be completely onside about how to share, make sure you can both achieve your goals and keep working, keep happy.

And so how has he found watching you become a mum and supporting you while you were training and going back to work? Yeah, it's an incredible journey, isn't it? Because yeah, he's watching me become a mum, but I'm watching him become a dad as well, which is really special. And it's just like you met when he was your coach, is that right? No, we met, we were both playing at Harlequins. So he's had a long rugby career as a player. He was playing at Harlequins, I was playing at Harlequins.

We met across the physio room. Our eyes locked. Not usually on a spacial romance. No, it's not, but hey, you eyes locked. Not usually a space for romance. No, it's not, but hey, you know, things happen when you least expect it. So yeah, he then retired from playing and he's always kind of coached alongside and got into coaching.

The opportunity then came up, the role opened to become Bristol Bears head coach, which he applied for and he got. And you know, I think a lot of people just assumed, oh, well then that means I would go to Bristol, which wasn't the case. I was like, well, let's have a meeting, sit down across the table. This is what I would expect as a player. Very professional-like.

So eventually he did sign me. So we both went to Bristol together. So our dynamic has really shifted. Not many people have that relationship where your husband is essentially your boss. So there is that time when we're at work where I definitely can't say no and I have to agree and do as he says, which can be frustrating. But it can probably be similarly frustrating for him when we're back at home and I'm saying, you know that drill that you did, that was rubbish. Now I can talk to you about it. Yeah. But he's been the best support. And to have him there, to have his understanding,

he the way that, I mean, I'm sure he would have done this for anyone, any player, but the way he was able to keep me involved throughout my pregnancy. So I still felt part of the team so I could still be in training and although I couldn't do the contact, it was, you know, it was made so that I could be involved as possible. And that's kind of set the precedent, which is really nice. And the other thing is, away from work, just how supportive he's been, and maybe I think I always just expected, I guess, I wouldn't have had it any other way.

The way we work is a team. We talk about, we laugh and we joke about our motto is collaboration and appreciation. That's what it's about and it's always been about that. So when Halle came along, in my head it was always going to be 50-50, which it obviously never quite is, but I think it probably is now. And he knows what he needs, he knows what I need. So in the morning, he's like, yeah, I'll wake up with Halle every morning

because you need an extra hour in bed because you're going to go and then train. But then I know he's got to go to certain meetings and then in days like, we just work it so well. It can be hard because we've got the same schedule, but it can be brilliant because we've got the same schedule. So we know that when we've got days off we're off together and it's just wholesome family time. Which is like, that's what it all comes back to isn't it? Yeah. You mentioned the maternity policy. Just to get my head around that, I know this is, when was this policy introduced?

It was introduced... So Before you were pregnant? As I was pregnant. They were working on it beforehand. It was the RFU along with a group of players and they were speaking to different countries and they were working on it. So I knew it was in the works. It was basically finished, about to be published,

basically as I announced. So it was kind of perfect timing. And when you said you've realized that following your, you know, the first year of motherhood, but it doesn't quite work, and you said we've realized it, are you part of the conversation to look at how to tweak it so it does work? Yeah, and I think, so what they created was this maternity policy, and then the policy of coming back into work with your one-year-old. What we hadn't thought about was a working parent policy, which is separate, which is this next part,

because yes, I've returned now, I've gone through the pregnancy, I've gone through the return, but now every day is, you know, we need to work out how it's going to look, how it's going to feel, for everyone, for coaches, for me, for Hallie, for family, for the rest of the team as well.

So now it's about creating a fit for purpose work and parent policy. I think it actually sounds like a very modern thing. I feel like there's a lot of areas that haven't really got their head around that aspect. And I think there's so many workplaces where, of course, have your baby come back to work when you're ready, but then compartmentalize the two.

So being able to actually involve her, being able to bring her along to things with someone that's paid to come. And that's, I think that's almost quite revolutionary really. And well certainly that doesn't happen in my line of work like that. I think that's brilliant. So it sounds like a really clever fresh take on it. And did you say it actually ends up with players feeling like they've actually been seen?

They can actually do their job to their best ability and be supported. Do you find, like, would you take your kids along with you on, like, tours or? I have done. I've done different things at different stages, but yeah, I have, and I've really loved it. And certainly, when I got to my fourth or fifth baby, I got much more confident about knowing myself as well, actually. And I think for a little while mixing work and my home life would actually scrambled my head a little bit and I didn't really find it very easy to focus. And trust me, that can still happen.

I think by the time I had my later babies, I felt better about my ability to, to do what I do and have them with me right up to like walking on stage and then say to them, right, like I did, especially with my fifth, when I was doing festivals, I wouldn't take anyone to look after him, but when I, I would make sure there might be someone that was working on the festival, I'd say, do you mind having my baby for like 40 minutes, like five minutes either side. And just so I know he could literally be inside the stage with the ear defenders on, I just knew he was around and I really liked it.

And they're so portable when they're small and And people react really well to seeing a baby. So it's generally a good thing. And I also think, and it sounds like Halle will have a very similar experience that they soak it all up and they become part of this, they become like a communal baby and passed around and different voices speaking to them and different people making them smile. And I think that's, I think that's a great way to experience childhood. Oh it's amazing and she loves it and in the last couple of games, you know, after the

game I've been and before the game she'll be in the changing room with us and I think she thinks, she ran out with me recently and I think she thought everyone was there for her. She, I thought, oh she might be a bit nervous, she's done it a couple of times before but very different stages and as they, you know they get a bit older they become more aware. I thought she might not like this. Before we'd even run out we were right in the tunnel, she was just pointing out and she was laughing and she was like, come on, onwards to war, whatever it is. And it's great.

I think the rugby environment as well for me is something really special about it, to have her surrounded by all these different, incredibly strong women. But I think the thing about rugby is from one to 15, everyone has a different role, everyone has a different skill, all different shapes, sizes, attributes. And so to surround Hallie with that, because I think growing up as a girl is incredibly difficult and it's getting harder and harder every day, isn't it, with all social media. So to have her in that environment is really special. I love seeing her in that environment. I love the energy it brings to the girls as well. Yeah.

Yeah, it's really special. And it totally celebrates strength, which I think is, as you say, that's not always something that the emphasis is on, but it's so, it's so inspiring. I remember when I went to Twickenham and I know you weren't playing that day, but I met, I met the team and I was like, I was just like, this is so exciting. Like it's, I mean, to me, like being excelling at sport is, it's so inspiring because I do know that it's, it's hours and hours and graft. It's not just like some people are, you know, born differently or something.

It's like, no, you can achieve, you've just got to get the mindset of, of determination. I mean, you did mention a little bit about the next bit. I once interviewed Helen Glover, the rower, and she said that for her, she felt like talking about what happens when you're no longer at that level can be a little bit taboo because it can be seen as demotivating or this kind of other land, like, oh no, we don't talk about that because you need to be so focused about now. But do you find in rugby, in your team, that people do talk a little bit about the future and what it might look like?

like? I don't think they do too much in terms of like getting towards your end of your career because as soon as I think your performance starts dipping people don't talk about it they don't want to mention it but it's inevitable and I think I probably struggled where obviously my performance wasn't where it was. When I was pregnant with Halle I was probably at the peak of my performances that I've ever had. I was playing the best rugby I was ever playing and naturally you're not going to come back in at that point. But I think that gave me, I found, I think from conversations that I had a lot of self doubt. And that was a new area for me.

That was, yeah, that was foreign because I've always backed myself because, you know, I've had to, I've had to work hard and I've had to tell myself like, no one's going to do it for you, you've got to go and do it. But I suddenly found myself, you know, can I do it? Whereas previously I was like, you can do anything you want. And I think what if they're right?

What if those people that I know are chatting in the background thinking, I don't think I'll be able to get back to international standard or she won't do it. And once that's in your head, that's quite a thing you've got to just. Yeah, there was that doubt that I had to shut up. And even this year, I've experienced it.

But it's not the reality. I've got to keep telling myself that. That's what other people think. They don't know you. They don't know what you've been through. They don't know what you've overcome and what you can still go on to do. And that's their limitations, that they're saying that's not yours. But I do think it is an area, you know,

that should be spoken about more openly in terms of the back end of an athlete's career. Yeah, I would agree with that. Having a few conversations with people who've played at that level and have struggled with the next bit. And a lot of it's just to do with having the conversations really and bringing it into the here and now so that it isn't something that's suddenly like looming in this sort of

peripheral vision that you feel you can't really raise because actually there might be aspects of the fact that you know that it's not something that can just roll on for decades that have actually been, have helped you get the most out of where you're at now? A hundred percent. It's that perspective again. As an athlete, your career, it's got a timeframe on it. And I think I'm now even more so aware of that with Halle because it's not just myself that I need to think about.

If I'm suddenly out of contract next year, like it affects more than myself. But the way that I've tried to look at it and I'm definitely thinking about it now in terms of lining up my exit strategy out of rugby is it's exciting because up until now, I'm known as Abbie Ward, the rugby player. My career, I've been a professional, been playing for England for 10 years.

My next career is going to be longer than 10 years. So when I finish my next career, I'm going to be known more for that than I am for playing rugby. And if I'm excited and enthused about what I'm doing now, my next one is going to be even more so. Just because I don't know what it is, that shouldn't scare me.

I look at it and I'm like, yeah. Yeah, an opportunity. Yeah, definitely. An adventure. I think that's such a great way of looking at it. And also, and I might not count for much, but from hearing you speak, I think I've just got a feeling something will unfold because I think you're so familiar with prepping yourself. There'll be just like the next step, the next step, and something will just probably start to become apparent.

I'm not, well, I'm not worried about you, let's put it that way. I mean, go back to the 15-year-old girl where they're like, research, I mean, can you come, you could be like a motivational speaker for my kids. I'm not sure about that. I think if I said to them, you're going to have to research your next educational step, they'd be like, sorry, what? Yeah.

I'm so impressed by that. And I think, you know, look, all roads lead back now. You've got this daughter where she will grow and learn and start to see other stuff and seeing her mum working. And even the way you've already managed to start to, like, parenthesis the work trips, that sort of stuff will really allow you to have the space for it so that when she's older she'll be able to do the same. It's such a... I've heard so many sporting analogies during everyday conversation. It's such a long game.

It evolves and morphs and it's not just, we put so much emphasis on that beginning bit and pregnancy and new motherhood and having the baby. But you can find yourself getting better at different chapters than you expected. And it's going to be exciting when she's older. And I would imagine that for both you and your husband, you would really hope that sport is a big part of her life, not necessarily professionally, but just, it makes such a difference in terms of mental health

and all these things for young people, I think, if it's there. Absolutely. I think all the values that it gives, you know, that resilience, that hard work, the enjoyment, the fun, like the social aspects. Like I love being able to go to work with my teammates every day, run around on a pitch, and you know, after the game, the socials, it's so good. And yeah, I'd encourage anyone to, whatever sport it is, just to, or whatever club, whatever it is, just get involved in something. It's a community, something to be part of. And what was really nice actually, I know we briefly spoke about it

when you played at Twickenham, the halftime show. That was the one game which I wasn't involved in that Six Nations. And I never take anything for granted. I never take selection for granted. So all my mates were going and I was like, well, get me a ticket. This was when they were out in November. I was like, if I am not playing, I want to be there and I want to be there with you guys.

So a big group of us went and I wasn't selected, which, you know, silver lining was, I can go as a spectator. And we took Hallie along and Dave came. And what a day it was, what a day it was to share that with her. And... Isn't that so sweet that you brought her along and you got her there? Yeah, and you know what? And what a day it was, what a day it was to share that with her. Isn't that so sweet that you brought her along and you brought her there?

Yeah, and you know what, she slept throughout the whole first half, you know, 60,000 people cheering like mad, and she was flat out asleep. But Marilyn Dantzler came on, there she was, I was like, you don't even know this song. Was that idea? It was all over TikTok? Yeah, yeah, probably. Joking. She might have missed that week when that happened. So yeah, that was quite, that was a, there's two games you want to play, which is the Grand Slam game and the game at Twickenham. Didn't get to play the game at Twickenham, but it was, it was pretty special

being in the crowd. And for me, just seeing the, the change and being a fan and seeing where rugby's got to and being there with my baby, I was like, this is pretty cool. Yeah, and I imagine seeing things from that perspective doesn't happen to you very often. So that's actually like, you can see the ripple effect as well.

Cause people go to the match and it brings a high. It's like, it's really infectious, isn't it? Like when you're in the crowd. Yeah. That's really infectious, isn't it? Like when you're in the crowds. Yeah. That's really cool. Oh, well, I think exciting things lie on the horizon. Oh, actually, just as one last thing, we were talking before we start recording about Halle's name

and you said what you found out after you'd named her one of the mean, is that right? Or you- Yeah. Yeah, well, and one of the name, is it ruler of the house? Ruler of the house, yeah. Meadow dweller, ruler of the house. She is living up to her name. She Is it ruler of the house? Ruler of the house, yeah. Meadow dweller, ruler of the house. She is living up to her name. She is the ruler of the house.

Not dwelling in many meadows, but... No, no, doesn't dwell anywhere really. Oh, well, it sounds like she's in the right family, I reckon. Ruler of the world for all of you. Good luck, everyone. Yeah, exactly. Thank you so much, Abby. Thank you for having me.

Oh, what a lovely chat. See how cool is Abby with her outlook? I love it. I love meeting people where they have such a great way of framing things because it makes me feel better too. Yeah, I just thought she was very grounded, very driven, real clarity of thoughts, loves her company, loves her drive. And I'm excited for her to see where she goes next. It's interesting isn't it with sports people because they do have, you know, there is a shelf life to that

aspect of your profession. But then as she said, the next bit will be the bigger chapter, who knows what will unfold there. Something to be excited about. I will definitely be watching. I'm conscious that this is probably a horrible sound for your ears. Kit's actually doing alright. Oh yeah, let me have a quick look. Actually in his team, he's out on top. Hurrah! He can bowl. I didn't put the edges up, obviously. They're 16. But you never know, they might be offended by that.

They might want the little bouncy edges. They didn't. They're all good. And my god, 13, 15, 16, 17 rolls. They are huge. Anyway, all good. Thank you. Got the birthday boys drink now.

And yeah, all is well. I will see you next week with yet another gorgeous guest. Trying to think, I'm speaking to for next week. Oh actually there's two, there's two I haven't quite decided. Two very different women but two in lots of cool things to say, lots of wisdom. Ain't that always the case? Alright listen have listen, have a lovely week, whatever you're up to. Thanks to Claire Jones for producing,

Richard for editing, sorry about all the noise, darling. Ella May for the artwork, mainly, oh, Abby Ward for the lovely conversation, of course. And you, mainly, for lending me your ears, making this little community what it is. Keep your suggestions coming. I really rely on it. And yeah, I'm feeling good about life. Thanks to Abby. Yes, that's your Coca-Cola kit. Yeah,

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