Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 150: Daria Khrystenko

Episode Date: March 17, 2025

Daria Khrystenko fled her home in Kyiv on the day that Russia invaded Ukraine 3 years ago. She, her then 10 year old son, her mum and her 3 cats travelled to Poland where Daria now works with CARE Poland, as a translator and advocate, helping other refugee women rebuild their lives.Daria told me about the day the war broke out, and how she packed and left home in 20 minutes. She explained how she tries to create a new stability for her family in Poland and how she longs for fair peace in Ukraine.Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Select games only. Guarantee void if platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires played by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded or 11 p.m. Eastern. Research and supply. See full terms at canada.casino.fando.com. Please play responsibly. ["Spinning Plates"] Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexter and welcome to Spinning Plates,

the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons age 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates.

Good day. How are you? It's Saturday. Oh, Saturday lunchtime. One o'clock. I've just dropped off my 12-year-old at a go-karting party. Rich has taken out three other kids on a bike ride. The oldest boy is gonna come over later

to join us for supper. And yeah, I feel like what do I do now? I've got like tiny little window where there's no one around. Unusual. So I'm walking back to the house and I thought I'm gonna get some bits and bobs for supper. Loving having a weekend at home.

I had last weekend at home as well, and I have next weekend at home, as things are. So this is lovely. Thinking about being a musician is you often work weekends, you see, which is all fine and dandy, but it is lovely to have a weekend at home. And I've had a nice week. It's been a busy week, actually.

In fact, I spent most of yesterday with a woman I met through the podcast. You brought us together. Deli Carter. She of Saw It or Life Out TV show, which if you're in the UK, I'm sure you've watched where people take their overfilled houses, their cluttered houses, and spread them out, all the contents of the house in a warehouse, and get rid of like a third of it. She came and did that with my wardrobe. Guys, I got rid of so much stuff.

I'm talking 16 bin bags of clothes. Well, actually 17, because I realized today I left one in the attic, which will go towards the next sale. But yeah, I, Karcaramba did so much. And we did a big sale yesterday. Dili organized it with her, her fleet of women that work with her, called Dili Zollies and the Eve Appeal charity were the recipients of the fundraising and they were there on the day the Eve Appeal work with prevention and awareness for gynaecological cancers.

And word on the street is we've raised over £12,000 at the moment and counting. So thank you so much to the people who came along. It wasn't just my clothes in the end, it was clothes donated from people. Jesse Ware, thank you so much, you donated. Clara Ampho, thank you so much. Dillie herself, a stylist I worked with for years called Tamara. Lovely people, generous women, all good. So yes, thank you so much. And it was great actually. It's lovely to be in all that bustle and raise so much money. It felt good. And then, what else have I done this week? I went to Vienna for a gig. That was fine, it's nice, pretty city. And the rest of the time has just been meetings and prep

and getting ready. I've got some new music coming your way actually, if you're interested in that. Yeah, it comes out, I don't know if I'm supposed to say, I'll sod it, You and I, pals. March 28th, I've got a song coming out. Erm... That'll be the start of the new music for the new album.

I'm so excited. I can't bloody wait. It's exciting. Now that there's a little bit of spring in the air, it feels totally the right thing. Sorry, noisy bus. Anyway, listen to me. Chatting on about all these jolly things. like a little bit of spring in the air, it feels totally the right thing. Sorry, noisy bus. Anyway, listen to me, chatting on about all these jolly things

when my guest Daria has had to deal with the unimaginable actually, very stark contrast. And wow, just made me realize how much I just hate for granted. Normality, routine, predictability, safety. Because Daria and her son and her mum and their cat all had to flee their home in Kiev, in Ukraine,

at a moment's notice when three years ago, the very day that Russia invaded Ukraine, Daria was ready to go. She is a single mum to her son, who is now 13. This happened when he was 10. And the conflict between Ukraine and Russia had been rumbling for a long time. But she was in a state of readiness because they could see that there was impending conflict. And so Daria was ready bags packed. At five o'clock in the morning, she got a

phone call from her friend saying it's time to go and so she they went. She already spoke a few languages. She speaks English very well as you will hear. She also speaks Ukrainian of course and Russian and Polish. She'd actually spent time in Poland so when they left Ukraine they spent two weeks traveling before coming to a Holton Warsaw where they've now been living for the last few years and Doria's put to work her Polish language knowledge by helping Ukrainian teachers get placements in Polish schools, which is pretty vital because obviously you get all those children displaced too and they need a school to go to. And she supported and worked with Care International who have helped her and other people find placements and helped

families integrate and helped kids and helped mothers and helped women now found themselves in a new place displaced by war and needing to create a new life for themselves what an extraordinary experience it is and how privileged I felt to sit opposite her and find out more about it so I will leave you with Daria and I, as chatted, recorded really recently. I think it was only a week before last. And yes, as I walk around on this sunny day near my house, just thinking what to plan for supper, I'll try to remember that even something as casual as that is a real privilege.

Alright, see you on the other side! Thank you for having me. It feels like I don't even know how to express my feelings. When I first heard that you would host me in your home, that was like, wow. And now it is happening. Thank you. Well, I'm really looking forward to speak it. I've been looking forward to it, Daria.

So we spoke, I think it was about two years ago, I think we spoke, when I was co-hosting a podcast for Care International. And we were talking to women all around the world, and we had a brief chat, and I remember at the time thinking, I would love to have a longer conversation with you. And I suppose, so we are three years in

to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and does it feel to you, are you used to the fact that that is what has come into your life and changed the course? Has it become familiar or does it still feel quite shocking that that's what's happened? I think it's both. It feels of course like every time, every morning I start with news from Ukraine.

And my father is in Ukraine, he has joined the army. So he is defending the territory of his city. And of course, we receive this fresh news every single day. And every time, despite the fact that it's been three years, and it feels like nothing more shocking could happen every time it is stressful and hearing even today those bombardments, it is of course heartbreaking. But on the other hand, I think every one of us have changed and adjusted because otherwise you cannot handle it. You cannot be shocked every single day for three years of your life. So it's just coping mechanism of every person.

And I think it's both in those who live in Ukraine and who struggle even more with all these alarms and just being, having the need of pack and go in the middle of the night. I have a friend who has just given birth to a small baby girl. And she said that they were ready, like they have all the babies clothes,

everything packed in case there is needs to go downstairs. So they are ready every day to wake up in the middle of the night and to go downstairs to the basement to wait until it's gone. And this is life of millions of people. Our life is safer, but I think it's also stressful just worrying about those who are in Ukraine, friends, relatives, and just home, homeland, your country. And of course, it's both. Yes. Yeah. And I was thinking, you know, hearing you talk about that, it means as well that people

have had to live in a state of hypervigilance for a very long time. And I don't know what toll that takes emotionally, you know, you just being ready as you say, you know, you wake up in the morning and your first thing is to look at your phone and write what's the latest, what's going on. So have you got many friends that are still in Ukraine? Many friends are in Ukraine. A lot have returned. Because men are not allowed to leave Ukraine.

So everyone who is under 60 years old, they are not allowed to leave the country. So very often it's the choice, either you save yourself, your children, and you basically ruin your marriage. Because how long can you wait like this? How long can you live like this? Or a lot of women decided to return to Ukraine to be with their husbands. So it is never an easy choice. And some have left, some have stayed in hosting countries and are still struggling and trying to start over. I think this is for all of us, regardless where you live, whether it's in Ukraine or in a foreign country, life has changed so much that we are starting rebuilding our lives everywhere.

Because what was before the war, the full-scale invasion, and the life that is now is completely two different types of lives. And I guess as well when things first started, you don't know how long things will happen for, so you're thinking, okay, is this just a temporary thing? And then when the years start to go by, you realize, oh, this is not a pause on life, this is actually something that is now part of my story in a bigger way.

So when did you and, so it was with your son and your mum that you left, is that right? The three of you and your cats, I believe. I have to get the cats. I was thinking actually, because before we started recording, we were talking a little bit about our cats. I was thinking actually, because before we started recording we were talking a little bit about our cats. I was thinking I could actually do a whole podcast speaking to working women who also happen to have cats. We could just talk about cat life. But joking aside, when did you and your mother and your son decide to leave? And at the time was your son 10? Is that right? He was 10.

Okay. So did you leave very soon after the invasion? So we left Kiev the very day, the 24th of February. We woke up at 5 o'clock and I packed within 20 minutes just random stuff in a suitcase. I didn't know what to think. The war started and it was shocking. So we just left the Kiev very early morning. And right after we left, the whole city was full of traffic jam. My friends, they were eight hours standing

and not moving in their car. So the whole city was paralyzed. And we were lucky just to escape that because we left very, very quickly. And we went to my parents' house, to my parents' city Kremenchuk, which is around five hours drive, four and a half, five hours drive.

And then it took us, we also stayed for a few days because again, we didn't know whether it's going to be for a few days, for a month or for how long. And then when we realized that this is not something that is going to stop very soon, we just... And also, you know, few nights we were staying at the basement all night long because of air alarm. And it just, it was terrible waking my son up and waking up. And again, packing all the cats, everyone. You don't forget your passport. Because if the missile strikes your home, there is no home. So you need to take all the most important documents with you.

And I had the whole backpack packed in case of I need to go downstairs to the basement. And that would be like almost every day. And then I just realized that I don't think we can do it any longer. It is too much. So we decided to go and yes, we luckily we had luckily I was driving my car, so we just packed into the car and left. And gone. I mean, trying to step into the idea

of what that feel like is, I must have been very traumatic and I'm trying to picture the mood leading up. I know that there'd been ongoing tensions for about a decade before, you know, that date. But did you feel that what was going to happen? Was there lots of talk about it? Were people making plans? Was how you were seeing things very common, sort of perspective on things? Were your friends also in a similar state of readiness? I remember we were discussing it as something that surreal, that you know there were troops,

Russian troops, leading towards Ukraine from different sides. We would watch news but we would still think like this is not going to happen. This is 21st century and we are part, we are European country. We are in the middle of Europe. This is not happening. And it was still, I remember we were discussing it as something that so little, like I know it's strange now, it feels strange, but back then I didn't think it would happen. Right up to the 24th of February, I woke up to go for a run and my friend called me and said, oh, you're awake, you're packing.

I said, no, I'm going for a run. She said that the worst started, don't go for a run, back and go, because she lived further in the same neighborhood, but further. And she already heard the bombing. So she just heard it and her also relatives and friends lived in Kharkiv, which was already heavily bombarded. So that was a reality. It was shocking, striking and really no one would believe in it. Well, at least me and my friends. Yeah, and I can kind of touch the sides of that. Firstly, it's quite strange to me because I've been to Kyiv, I've been to Kharkiv, I have images in my head

and I've experienced it as bustling and a place you can stroll around and there's markets and there's nice restaurants, things you can engage in immediately. So these are not completely unfamiliar scenes in my head. And the idea of having your whole, that whole world, that whole culture, that whole life, all that busyness, just something that impending and feeling like it's not actually going to happen. I can totally relate to, I suppose the closest thing that I can relate to is when we were watching the pandemic closing in and you're thinking, okay, now it's in Italy, like soon it'll be the UK. And you think, will it though?

And it's so hard to imagine a flip of everyday life until it's on your doorstep. But I'm thinking about you with your little boy and how much were you speaking to him about what was going on? Were you thinking to try and prepare him or was it more just over his head so that in his world he's oblivious for that time? I know he's only little, but sometimes you might have thought, I don't know, I don't know if I'd tell them or not, I suppose. You know, I think our children, they grew old very quickly. Like within those few weeks of the war, they started to become very adult in their mindset. And I remember the same, like when we were leaving Kiev and I woke him up, I said, we need to go.

It seems like something bad has happened. Let's quickly go. So he didn't have time to realize what was happening. But when we would wake him up every night to go to the basement and to hide, and you just sit there in the dark with basement full of people and this is not a nice basement. It's like Soviet times basement and then I think it was very clear for him as well that this is not a joke and this is something very serious and we also we would watch of course news day and night and everything

that was happening was happening so fast that it felt of course it of course it influenced him and when I remember when we were already leaving from Kremenchuk to the nearest border it was I think six or seven hours drive only to the border. And he would behave like ideally. He would keep quiet. He would calm us down. My mom was very stressed. And he would talk to her like an adult person, like calming her down, trying to keep calm

and all of, and this is not a child, like it's not behavior of a child. Yeah. So, and we still do, we talk about war and what is happening every day. And of course we all want to go home and he misses Ukraine. He has never been to Ukraine since then. But he also says that we will return when the war is over, it is unsafe to go.

So he clearly understands that this is over, it is unsafe to go. So he clearly understands that this is serious and this is life and death. Yeah, and presumably, you know, he's had to think about all the things that his whole world, his friends, his school, his routine, that all overnight, just not a thing of his present anymore. That's an extraordinary thing to think about. I suppose the only thing is it's happening to all of his friends as well. Most people you knew, did they leave? Most of people left.

As I said, some returned, but I would call 50-50. It is very individual, very often. Some people, we had friends who lived in the UK and then they returned to Kiev. They were, but there are a lot that have been living in Kiev or well, all over Ukraine. And now they are deciding to flee. So it's very difficult to leave and this emotional stress, it accumulates. Yes. Like at one point you just can't stand it anymore, so you need to go somewhere where it's safe, where it's...

I remember that feeling when we were driving through Ukraine and we were driving and as soon as we reached the border and crossed the border, the feeling was completely different. You are in a safe place. You are no longer in danger because when we were driving, it was always like we tried to drive as fast as possible to just reach this safe area where the bombs would not fall on your head. Yeah, I was going to ask you that.

When did you feel safe? So it was literally as soon as you crossed that border. And am I right that you actually traveled So it was literally as soon as you crossed that border. And am I right that you actually traveled through five countries to find yourself in Poland? Yes. We used to live in Poland. So my and I have friends in Poland who called me and encouraged me to come.

And we decided that it would make sense to go to Poland because we used to live in Warsaw. So it was... So when did you live in Warsaw? We lived in Warsaw from 2014 till 2019. So it was only two years between Warsaw and Warsaw again. And so when you were going back there, so this is somewhere that your son knew as well then, he'd had some of his childhood there. Yes, he was three years old when we moved to Warsaw

and he went to kindergarten and to the first class of school. So he spoke Polish. So it was also easier for him to adjust. That's a big advantage, I'd imagine. To be in another, you know, it is kind of a foreign place, but familiar. So I think it made us in a better position than many other who had to flee to complete anew.

Yes, and I'd imagine as well that having, because in situations where things are in flux, children look to the adults to gauge the tone. So the fact that you would be feeling fairly confident about that move as well would make him hopefully relax a bit quicker as well because you're saying this is okay. We're going somewhere. We know there's an infrastructure there We can speak Polish Yes, yes that too, but I remember when we were in I think it was in Romania and We were still discussing with my mom where to go. Mm-hmm, because it's not that you're going to your mom where to go. Because it's not that you're going to your family who would, who is waiting for you. We would still need to look for apartment. We will still be on our own. And we were just discussing whether we go to Poland or we should go to some another country. And this was also,

you know, when you are in a place where you don't know where to go to start your life again. Yeah. It is, well, back then it felt temporary. And that was also, well, I didn't have that feeling. My mom was, she was sure that by May she would return to Ukraine. And it's already three years of war and doesn't feel like it's coming to an end. No, and I guess sometimes that's just the way the brain needs to work to cope with things. Probably. And also she could have been right.

Sometimes things do have very dramatic, fast pace, it can happen, but it's also a way of just the enormity of the idea of being somewhere for years would have been probably too much to think about in that moment. So what were the five countries you went through? So we started, we went to the nearest border which was Moldova and we came to Moldova. It was I think 2 a.m. or something like that when we when we crossed the border because the land was huge. It was huge queue and the queue from the border was reaching to the city. It was like kilometers of cars.

So you've been traveling for nearly 24 hours at that point. I don't even remember how many hours we traveled, but it was a dark night and we were in this small village in Moldova and we just tried to find some place to just sleep. And eventually we found that hospital that was turned into the center for refugees. So they would host and they would give you a bed and some food and you could sleep there. And that was our first country. So we went to, in the morning we packed and we continued and then there were other, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland and it was like, it took us 12 days and my mother was

not feeling well. She had, because of the stress, she had this heart issue. So we had to be in in that Romania village. We turned out to be in a hospital. And that was another stressful... Then I realized that we definitely need to go to the country where we could speak the language. Because we were in the hospital and there was no internet connection, so there was no translation available. Because we are so used to mobile phones where we could use Google Translate. But at some areas there is no connection. So all of that is unavailable. And we just try to communicate to the doctors what kind of issue you have.

And there were no common language. They didn't speak English. We didn't speak Romanian. And Romanian is such a different language that you cannot understand a single word. So eventually there was one doctor who could speak some English, so she was able to at least understand what was happening. And that was very scary. Yeah.

So our village where we were staying was in the village, and I drove my mom to the hospital and Max would stay alone. So he was afraid being alone and I was waiting for her in that waiting room while she was doing, like they were doing some tests. So that's why it took us that long to just... While we're on the topic of language, obviously I'm sitting here completely taking for granted your excellent English. How many languages do you speak, Daria?

So I speak Russian and Ukrainian, obviously, and I speak Polish. I speak a little bit of French. I studied French at the university, but I lost a lot because not much of... Well, and English. That's amazing. Well, thank you. You're incredible. I've just been completely been able to speak at my usual fast pace and they can ask you

anything and incredibly articulate. So is that your background? Did you study language? Was that your... Yes, I studied at the university. My degree is languages, foreign languages, French and English and literature. And what was your line of work when you had max? What were you working in in Ukraine in Ukraine? We I used to work at the university for some for a while I

Was English teacher and at the university and then when I was living in Poland I would do Completely different work and then when we returned to Poland, I would do completely different work. And then when we returned to Ukraine, I started my own business. I co-founded Language School and we had different languages. And this was, language was always my work, my life. And it was interesting to learn foreign languages. And I think it's an advantage where you can live in the country, you can learn the language, get to know the culture and it's also interesting to bring that experience

and to teach someone. So that was my idea and we opened that language school, we had numerous languages. I think there were seven, if I'm not mistaken. We had German, English, French, Spanish, Chinese, Polish. And there was some. We also did Ukrainian for foreigners. And of course there were different teachers of different languages, So it was not just me. I would mostly do management and some lessons, some lectures. So that was our life. And we survived through COVID. This is also something you had to leave behind. You had to leave behind your... Well, it actually collapsed.

Like, within one day, the whole of the business just disappeared because the teachers were gone, Ukraine, refugees, and the students were also gone. Like everyone just left. Wow. And yeah, so I had to close it. Fandu casino daily jackpots guaranteed to hit by 11 PM with your chance at the number one feeling winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying, I do.

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Guarantee void of platform or game outages occur. Guarantee requires played by at least one customer until Jackpot is awarded or 11 p.m. Eastern. Research and supplies. See full terms at canada.casino.fandir.com please play responsibly And so what what brought you to poland Before what your was it four years you said you were in poland was it? Five five years what what brought you to poland the first time The first time my ex-husband was a Ukrainian diplomat. So he was working at the embassy and we were living back then together. And when you were left Poland after those five years, did you ever think you'd go back there?

No, no, I didn't. I loved Poland. I liked living there a lot. It was a great place to live. But we returned to Ukraine, then we divorced with my husband, and we just moved along. He was doing his career, and I started my own, and it turned out to be a very interesting life where, and again, you know, this COVID taught us a lot. And through COVID, we managed to switch to online courses. Everything was online. And we switched very quickly and it was going, it was doing well.

It was going well. We had more students, we had more teachers, and it was developing. And it brought so much joy to life where I was on my own, but I was also confident that I have something that is working well. And then again, you know, when this war started, it was all gone. So even if I wanted to return to Kiev, I wouldn't be able to provide my family, my son. I mean it is very hard to get your head around the idea of everything like that, everything imploding in that way. And I'm also, when you were traveling through these different countries and eventually deciding on heading to Warsaw, how much infrastructure was supporting you?

Did you feel that there were helping hands or did you feel like it was very much something where you had to be resourceful and focused and make your own plans? You know, I think in general, how much hosting countries would welcome just regular people, would wait at the border crossing and help with food, with some items, with clothing even. That was tremendous. That was this welcoming atmosphere I have never experienced in such a terrible situation where you have to flee, but on every stop there were people who would smile, who would make coffee, tea, and just support. That was enormous.

That was huge. And everywhere from Moldova that night in Moldova in that old, it used to be hospital, but I think it was abandoned hospital. So they just use this building for thousands of refugees would go through that hospital and they would have meals day and night because people would arrive day and night. We arrived at 2 a.m. and they had hot meal for us. And like they didn't have to do that, but people would stay and would volunteer to help. And that was enormous. And it was everywhere. And when we came to Poland, it

was the same feeling everywhere. This is, I think it also helped millions of Ukrainians to just emotionally survive throughout this difficult, the most difficult period I think in life. I don't think there is anything to compare to that feeling. But when so many people support you, strange people, you don't even know them, but they are giving you a hand, they are hugging you, they are giving you this cup of coffee sometimes. It's just... are giving you this cup of coffee sometimes it's just all those gestures yes and the desire to connect and to support and I suppose it must be extraordinary for you to have it where you know you read the news you watch things on TV you see these experiences but then to realize that you are those

people you are those refugees in that story, finding a new life, having that life experience, something you never thought would be something you'd experience. And you're also supporting your son through it. And you spoke a bit about how he had this overnight maturity and understanding of an intensity of a situation and he supported his grandparents and was looking out for her. But I guess for you, watching him enter back into Poland and having to find a, you know, going to new schools, making friends, all of those things, that must have been really

hard. Did you have any of your, did you have friends in Poland at all when you were there? Either people you knew from before or people who'd come with you from Ukraine? I did have Polish friends who helped me a lot. My friend Agata, I am very thankful to her. She was very supportive and she would guide us through all the processes of signing into school. I did myself, but all other legal aspects also they were challenging

and new. And when my son came to school, there was this Ukrainian class, class full of Ukrainian children for all over the country. And I think that was also this atmosphere, welcoming atmosphere in Polish school, where they tried their best to create this just home environment where children could just not necessarily educate. At that moment, I don't think that was the priority, just to feel safe. They would have Ukrainian flags, some pictures, some posters. Children would come over with some stickers,

handing stickers to Ukrainian children. And that was also something that really helped a lot. I think it helped all of them, both Ukrainian and Polish children, because they didn't have that experience before either. When we think about hosting countries and children and adults, this was new for them as well. So I think that was a common experience for all of us.

And so Care International brought us together and am I right that they had support to help you with your skill sets, with your language skills, they could help you find a placement where you could be in a school also helping with that progress. Yes, I was... the program was focusing on teachers' assistance because there were thousands of qualified teachers from Ukraine and there were more than hundreds of thousands of children, Ukrainian children in Polish schools. So they needed someone who would become this bridge between Polish school and... I mean, you're an incredible asset for them to be able to... Well, me and many others in the program, there were 1,700 teachers all over the country.

Polish and Ukrainian language. Most of them didn't speak Polish, of course, because they would just be Ukrainian refugees, but they studied the language. There was this language program, there was language support. I didn't need that, but many, of course, benefited from it. And the idea was to have this teacher assistant who would stay in class, who would support and translate during the lectures, but also support parents, who were also lost, who didn't know how to communicate, what to do, how to sign

agreement or anything in school. So all this paperwork and just this bridge between Polish school, Polish school staff, Polish teachers and Ukrainian children and Ukrainian parents. So that was the role. And also, unfortunately, Ukrainian teachers, they are not able to work in schools as teachers. They need to have their degree. It is called nostrification, recognition of their diplomas. And this is what I do now. So this is where I started my journey as a teacher's assistant and it was part of CARE's

program. And that's how I met CARE staff and then I joined CARE when the school year was over. But also I think it puts me in a position where I could be also, I could understand from both sides what is needed and how to better shape this assistance. Because I am a teacher myself, I am a refugee mom and also I know how both systems work. So we do this matching of Ukrainian teachers and Polish schools. And also there are 25,000 vacancies in Polish schools. Twenty five thousand. Twenty five thousand.

Yes. Around two thousand vacancies only in Warsaw. So schools are very much needing professionals. And we have thousands of Ukrainian teachers. We have just finished one round of program where there were 1,000 teachers in the program, but 4,500 applied. There were 4,500 teachers applying to the program. We had to select 1,000 for, well, because of the funding reason, we have budget to support these 1,000 teachers. And the idea is, it is very complicated process.

It is very expensive. It's not for free. So when you think about recognition of diploma, you need to have your diploma and submit it to the exact university that does your specialization, your subject. So if it's a math teacher, math teacher goes to exact department. And then there is a committee of professors who would gather, look at your degree, all their programs. If the programs match, then they recognize your degree.

This is six months process. Minimum six months, sometimes it's longer. And this is also around $1,000 cost. And regardless whether the decision is positive or negative, you have to cover the costs. And for Ukrainian refugees, $1,000 just for recognition, this is enormous. This is something they cannot hold. Yeah, I mean, I was just thinking about as well, you know, you've got the bit where you're in emergency mode, you know, you're leaving your home, you're getting yourself where you

need to be, you're trying to, you know, that crucial sort of few weeks, days, weeks where you're finding out where you're going to head yourself, how you're going to get a base. And then as you know, the adrenalized state transitions into the more steady, right, we're here now, we're in a foreign country, reaching out, trying to get your head around how it all works, the admin, but then also thinking about how to make sure that you're not, you actually have a purpose and feeling a sense of yourself. You've had to leave everything. And the people around you don't know you,

they don't know your story. So you're introducing yourself to people and finding out where you can be useful and where you need the help. It's such an enormous task. So all of these programs are so useful, but also I think it's so heartbreaking the idea of people who've got a skill set and then find themselves somewhere where they've got to get back into a new system if that works.

I mean, it's an enormous, enormous far-reaching situation. And very often, unfortunately, highly qualified professionals, they work, of of course below their qualifications in minimum wage. And for teachers, when they do cleaning or they do something that Polish people not necessarily want to do. And of course, this is such a waste of knowledge and such a waste of human capital. Yeah, I think. Unfortunately, but we are where we are, and I think it feels great to be able to support, to be able to find this gap

and to fill it with professionals. Of course. And we are not, well, our program is 1,000 teachers, and we have new wave of 800 people in the program, but the need is bigger, way bigger, and there are 150,000 children in Polish schools, Ukrainian children, who still need support, who still need this bridge, who still need someone who understands their language, who not just understand the language, but understand what has happened, because it's also personal experience. It's our common experience.

Yeah, and of course, this is not a new situation. You know, for centuries, people have found themselves displaced and, you know, it's very common to get into an Uber and find yourself chatting to the driver and it turns out that they're actually, they were a doctor somewhere and this is not a new issue but I suppose just talking to you I'm really sort of trying to think it through in real time, how it would feel if it was me. And I'm conscious not to ask too many questions directly about your son because I think that's very personal and what he found difficult, what he excelled in is very much his story and I think that's quite private.

But I do wonder about, for you as a mother, what do you think has been the trickiest aspect of going through this with him to look after? Well, it turned out that he's 13 now, which is also a difficult age. I know. I think it's difficult in... It will be difficult in Ukraine, but it is more difficult, of course, being abroad. Yes.

And constantly worrying... I think he has the same feeling, constantly worrying about what is in Ukraine, what is happening. It also brings this extra stress and anxiety. And this level of anxiety we need to somehow navigate and mitigate it. So, it's also difficult for teenagers to find themselves in new environment. And I'm not talking about my son only, I think it's everywhere. And when we think about just moving from one school to another and making friends there,

in your own language, in your own city, you don't need to move out. It is challenging for a child. But when you think about someone from a completely different country, different culture, different language, even though my son, of course, he speaks fluent Polish, but still is different. And for him, it is very challenging to find friends and to find sense of belonging and this sense of stability. I think we all feel it because regardless the fact where we are, we are still foreigners everywhere and not being able to return to your home place where you belong, it also feels this forced displacement is different than just immigration.

Absolutely. Because when you immigrate, it's your choice. And it kind of, you own your decision. And here you are just forced to do what you have to do to save your life and not because... I know so many brilliant people and again experts in the field that used to be lawyers, doctors, teachers in Ukraine and they are struggling in Poland for many reasons of that kind. And I think also in your thinking about being a kid, he and his generation will feel they had no seat at the table when it came to any of the decisions that were made for him.

So being somewhere else and all that comes with it and you know it would be very easy to feel a lot of quite big emotions about frustration or anger or sadness or all the things that come from the you know as you say being forced to leave a life behind and all that group of friends and such a crucial time in your life. I think all of those emotions as well, that's got to go somewhere. It's actually very timely that we're speaking, not just because of everything that's going on with Care International and the Walk in Her Shoes campaign, but also the fact that there's... I've just come back from Warsaw myself. I was there two weeks ago, or maybe three weeks now, and I was there with Save the Children and we were looking

at a few programs that are helping Ukrainian children all the way from four years old all the way up to 18 actually, and different programs. And a lot of it is about how to process emotions. So using music, using art, using talking exercises, community projects, just to get a space where they can just process all of that. I mean, I was heartened speaking to the teenagers because they were really very, very positive. And they really seemed to want to take some of their experience and get a bit involved in the world and

make sure that some of these things never happen again and work towards going to Ukraine and helping rebuild them. So I found all that really inspiring but it's just it's a bit like what you said with your little boy in the car where overnight you know he was more grown up. It's just hard to imagine. Childhood is supposed to feel safe and it's supposed to feel, it's got fun and all the good stuff should surround you and the idea that you've got to introduce heavy topics and conflict and fear and unknown is a big thing to bring into a child's life from that like that, an external. It's a lot to deal with. So I think it is tough and I suppose you have to hope that

a good, I mean I suppose being somewhere, when you're somewhere now like Poland, which is a country you're already fond of, do you find that you're able to feel safe? Or once you've had your world upturned, do you feel like you've always got a part of you that thinks anything could happen anywhere now that you've experienced that? Well, definitely now we are in that stage where anything could happen. And I think there is also this fear among also Polish people, what might happen, what might not. And we are living in so uncertainty. And I think we are trying, I'm trying my best to stabilize,

to make it stable, to make it routine and to return to, you know, daily small things that we do. And it also helps me and I hope my family to have some routine that we do, something we do on Saturday, something we do on Sunday, something that we usually do on certain days. And this is like bringing you back to the ground, to the normal. But of course somewhere in the back of your mind you always have this feeling that if something of that kind you would never think would have happened, then it could repeat. But also I think it's interesting what you're saying about the children and how therapy

helps. We also have these programs for, well, we only focus on youth because we think that youth is the most vulnerable group of all children. Younger children, they adapt quicker, but these 14, 18 adolescents, they are not children anymore. They are this tradition time. They struggle the most. So in our, at CARE, we support this exact group.

And we want to also help them not just, of course, the most important is their mental health and their well-being. And we have this all kind of activities that support that. But also we want to help them to orient in their career. So they also know what is available in Poland and how they can reach what they want. Because sometimes they don't even know it's possible. When we talk with the youth and they say,

oh, there is such a job, I didn't think it is possible. I am a refugee and I am from a foreign country. I didn't think I could do that. And it's also a good feeling to empower them, to equip them with knowledge and with this support. So they feel empowered that they can really do it. They can apply to this scholarship, they can apply to this university, they can go to this technical school or whatever profession they choose

to. So this is what we do and we help them with also, of course, knowledge. We prepare them for the final exam so they do better at the final exam and then they can choose a career that is more available now than it used to be. Yeah, no, because it's so important, you say, like, when you're in that crucial bit, 14 to 18, it's so important to keep excited about your future. It's like a really valuable, no matter where you're going or what the backdrop is, it's like that thing you've got to be able to hold on to just feeling like a sense of optimism that it's all out there for you. And so the more you can

protect and encourage that and then turn it into, you know, look at all these options, this is how it could work. And then they can go, oh, OK, I can see, I can see something unfolding that didn't really look as if it's really crucial at that age, isn't it? Such a big thing. And to sort of flip the other question I asked you about the trickiest bit, have you surprised yourself with your resourcefulness and your ability to provide that stability? It sounds like you've been able to draw on a lot of your resources just to keep those grounding things in your life.

Have you surprised yourself with having those skills? in your life, have you surprised yourself with having those skills? I think yes, of course. I wouldn't expect that much energy, I suppose. Sometimes you feel down and the feeling that there is nothing left, but then from somewhere inside you have this second feeling that you can do it. It's like running marathon and then somewhere in the middle you feel you cannot do it any longer. But then this energy comes from somewhere inside and you continue running.

I think it's exactly the way for us, for refugees and for me personally. It's like running marathon. You don't focus on, you don't run quick. You just focus on long distance and how you can proportionally split your energy and your resources so you can survive longer. I don't know if it answered your question. Definitely. No, I think that's a really very powerful analogy.

And I think when you were talking about that, I was thinking, does that mean that you, do you allow yourself to make plans? How far do you go into your future and where are you in those plans? You know, I'm the person of planning. I used to plan everything. I like planning.

It helps me a lot to have like short-term plans and long-term plans. And again, this war has taught me that maybe not necessarily when you plan something, it will be possible and it will be realistic. So now I think it has taught a lot not to have this long-term perspective, but to have the small, short-term plans, what we do. Well, I tend to switch into this long-term planning. I think this is also my way of coping and surviving because I plan for this summer, then I think, okay, maybe next year we could do this and that and that. And it also kind of brings you to this ownership of your life and stability.

Because when you plan, it means that you are in a position that you can see what will happen next and the further you can see, the more stable your life is. This is again, this is my perspective, my feeling. So I think at the very beginning, we could only plan for week, two months. But now the longer we live, the more it is not as... You were absolutely right. First, it was just response emergency. And now it's completely different situation for most of us.

It's not just me. I think all of the refugees who are in Poland, in other countries, they just plan long term. What do I do now? How do I provide for my family? But how do I provide today, tomorrow and next year? So yes, I do start planning and I think it's good also to have it back. Yes, definitely. Is your mum still nearby?

Is she still with you? Yes. Does she live with you? Yes, we all live together, three of us. Oh, well that's very lovely too, having the three of you under one roof. It is. It is great. Well, at least now I'm in London and they are together, so supporting

each other. And we are very close with my mom and with Max. So three of us, we get along very well. And I'm lucky to have such a family, you know, who is supportive and always, they have always been supportive. My parents are just, I'm very, very lucky to have them. Yeah, that's lovely. I've got a real image in my head of the three of you. And your cats are with you as well. We live in a tiny place, but I think cats are happy everywhere. Yeah, me too.

We might feel that it's tiny, but for cats, it's fine. Yeah, and also it's so nice when it's tiny, but for cats, it's fine. Yeah. And also, it's so nice when you just have those moments with them where you stroke them and it's like, again, that grounding thing, I think, I mean, I'm a cat person, so I'm going to be pro-cats. But I do think having pets can really help make places feel more like home. Oh, definitely. Yeah, for me anyway.

And just for my last question, what are your hopes for what happens next? What would you like to happen? What are you dreaming of? I dream for fair peace in Ukraine because there's been talks of ceasefire and it is still uncertain. And I think I want that all the sacrifices that were made and all the lives that people have dedicated for independence and for future of our country, so it's not wasted.

And I wish and hope that we do find this freedom and this independence in our country. And I wish to those who want to return, so they return, and those who have nowhere to return, I wish for them to build their lives and to have better life wherever they are. Because you've been to Ukraine, you know that 20% of Ukrainian territory is now temporarily occupied by Russia. 20% is half the size of the UK.

It's half size. This is how big it is. So millions of people, they have nowhere to return. And another half have nowhere to return because there is no homes left. The home is gone. The whole cities are destroyed. So I think it is a very, very difficult choice, whether to return to ruins and build again from scratch or to stay in a foreign country and be a foreigner. It is always difficult, always challenging. And I wish and hope that every single person finds this best solution for his or her life.

This is my hope. And of course, my biggest hope to have peace in my country and to return and not being afraid that the bomb will fall on your head and this is what I hope for. Yes, I hope for the same. I think Ukraine is such a beautiful country and I know even with my relationship with it, I've missed going there. And when we've been speaking, I've got so many lovely memories of like I'm seeing myself wandering through Kiev and the sun is shining and I was at a market and I just, I've always

really loved going there. But obviously the magnitudes of that whole life, culture, homes, safety. You've really, really brought it home. I think it's everybody has been talking so much in this country about Ukraine and we actually have Ukraine families that join my children's primary. So, you know, it's become part of our world in that way,

but it really brings it home when you talk about the personal. So thank you for sharing all of that with me. It's really, really powerful. And it's a real privilege to talk to you about it. So thank you so much, Daria. Thank you for hosting me. Thank you for giving this time. Maybe if someone will hear the story,

it might inspire someone or encourage to support or help. Because I think it's also important to remember that it's been three years but the struggle of people are like it's huge and now it's worse than it was in the beginning. So this is something that we need to remember someone who are who need most and they have lost all of everything. They do need support. And even though it's been three years and there is this fatigue among society and private donors and institutional donors,

it doesn't mean that there is no need. The need is huge. And this is... And I just... I work in this field and I see people every single day that need support and the more people come the more vulnerable they are the more need they have. Yeah.

So thank you for giving me this time to speak about it. Everything you said is so true about remembering and bringing it back to the actual humanity of it. I do believe that more people are good than bad in this world, I do, but it's an unimaginable thing to me that this can happen and just absolutely destroy lives. It's just, as you say, it's the enormity of it, how far-reaching and how devastating it is. So I think that when you bring it home to personal stories, that's when it lifts off the statistics and becomes something where people can step into the story more. And from that, good things will grow. I do believe it.

Thank you, Sophie. Thank you, Safiya. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much to Dario Crescenco for speaking to me and to Care International for bringing us together. In fact, even Dario being on the podcast was a result of me speaking to Helen Pankhurst, another former Spinning Plates guest. So thank you to Helen as well. It's an extraordinary thing, isn't it, when you take someone's life experience and lift

it out of the news articles and the headlines and you start thinking about the reality of what it might feel like to have to leave your home in search of safety. But also that feeling of setting up somewhere new and then having to, well, work out when to lay down roots because you don't know what tomorrow will bring. You want to be going back home but you don't know when you'll be allowed to. Extraordinary really. It's so hard to get your head around and obviously when you're in that situation it's not something you've ever really planned for properly because how can you know how it feels when you're doing it.

So yes, thank you Daria. Also thank you to her mum and son for allowing Daria to speak a little of their experiences too. Appreciate that. And yes, I am now a little later on Saturday. When I spoke to you at the beginning, I was on my way to Tatebury. I was just walking home after dropping him at a party and now I'm on my way to pick him up. He's been go-karting. The sky is blue. I've got tonight's supper already cooking in the oven. Other kids have been on their bike ride. We're lucky, aren't we? I'm lucky. Yeah, I feel more aware of it than usual after my chat with Doria. Bloody hell, listen to that bird. That's a weird sound, isn't it? Anyway, thank you so much for joining me this week. Listen, this is the last one of this

series. Another 10 glorious episodes. Here we are, five years in, 150 working women who happen to be mothers. That's a lot, isn't it? 150. Blimey, it's getting serious. I already have recorded three for the next series. Check me out. I go on tour middle of May so I'm hoping to start the new series middle of April so I'm trying to record some ahead of that so that when I go on tour I'm not So I'm trying to record some ahead of that so that when I go on tour I'm not scrabbling around. So wish me luck with that. So thank you to Daria and thank you to all of my amazing guests. It's been another lovely series. Thank you to Claire Jones for being such a lovely friend and producer. Thank you to Ella May for her beautiful artwork week on week. thank you to my husband Richard who

edits the podcast. Actually, Richard, note to us, we need to change the intro. Someone the other day was like, oh, your kids are between 16 months and 16 years of age. I'm actually there now, six and 20. So I really do need to get on that. That's a nippy wind. But of course mainly thank you to you. Thanks for giving me this community, giving me this chance. I love doing my podcast. I always have.

It's really special. I love the chats. I love meeting these amazing people. I love sharing it with you. I love the wisdom that comes with it. Alright my loves, keep safe, I'll speak to you in about a month. So, more updates then, and take care. Here I am at the go-karting. Let's see how the little chap did.

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