Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 152: Karni Arieli

Episode Date: May 5, 2025

Karni Arieli is a photographer. Her lockdown project Eye Mama @eyemamaproject asked photographer mums all over the world to share honest pictures of their own experiences of motherhood. She has just had it published as a book. She also makes short films, commercials and music videos and has recently had a BAFTA nomination for a film about the life of a salmon, played by a woman and narrated by Marianne Faithfull.Karni and I talked about how showing our children our weakensses is important and she shared how her first experience of motherhood was extremely tough as she had a herniated disc and couldn't walk or lift her baby for the first 8 months of his life.Karni also shared her life motto that she's passed on to her children: 'Do it like you mean it'. And she described her love of 'awe walks' with her children, which I am defintiely going to practise on the walk to school from now on!https://www.instagram.com/eyemamaproject/?hl=enhttps://eyemamaproject.com/Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexter and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates Hey, I'm not sure if this is an introduction or a cry for help. We currently have eight

Eight extra 12 to 13 year old boys in the house It's my third boy's 13th and they all seem pretty chipper, but it's quite hard to control a large group of 12 to 13 year old boys because they all kind of move en masse and I don't know, I feel like I've maybe bitten off more than I can chew, but I'm in it now. She's in it now guys. Anyway, they're all happy.

They're all eating some pizza. And how are you? Good to be chatting to you again. Back with the pods, second episode into this new series. And I've actually been super efficient, maybe, if that's the right word, because I've recorded nearly the entire series already. And I don't know why I'm boasting to you. I want to give the idea that maybe

that's what I'm like every time, but it's not. Sometimes I get all in a tiz, and this time I've been organised because I go on tour in two weeks. And I know that once I'm on the road, I won't be able to do so much. So I've got so many gorgeous conversations for you, not least my guest this week, Karni Ariely. Now Karni, again someone I'd never met till she came to the house and thank you so much to her for coming. I was interested in speaking to her because her lockdown project, iMama, which is spelled E-Y-E, caught my eye, figuratively, literally, on the internet. It's a series of photos on motherhood. It's a really beautiful project.

She had tens of thousands of women from all around the world sending in their photographs depicting motherhood. And I love photography. I feel like it invites you into a world, it's almost like a sort of visual poetry, like a little bit of a meditation on a moment and it's a lovely medium and there's all these little insights into all these different women's experience of motherhood and so much of it is so relatable or beautiful or sort of stillness in the chaos that you get it,

even if it's not your personal first-hand experience, you think, yes, I can relate to what that is conveying. So it's a really special thing and it's a lovely thing that Carney's been part of. It's in a book, which you can find. The book is beautiful. I'm lucky enough to have a copy. So through that I was introduced to its instigator and curator of the project, Carney, who drove to see me from Bristol and she has two boys with her partner. They have a 10 year old and 18 year old son and Carney is also a video director who works alongside her husband as well. So they're a creative family, they're an interesting family, innovative, making animations, one of which was BAFTA nominated, best animated short film.

So a pretty fascinating person all around actually. And lots of energy, lots of positivity, lots of curiosity about the world. So it's a lovely conversation, and if you're interested, yes, look out for her and her book, I, Mama, because it really is gorgeous. And she said actually a lot of people end up buying it for mothers in their life, so I think that's maybe a little tip for you.

Anyway, I'm talking slightly frantically because I am just the other side of glass in the garden, prowling around, sort of hearing them. I'll just wish me luck. They're all sleeping over here tonight, and I just hope I get through it okay. It's gonna be fine, isn't it? Sure, what's the worst that could happen?

All right, see you in a bit. ["The Last Supper"] Well, firstly, it's so nice to meet you, Karin, and thank you for travelling from Bristol this morning to come and see me. How is Bristol these days? I love Bristol. I love Bristol. It's great. It's sunny. When it's sunny, it's just perfect. The whole of England comes into its own when it's sunny. London is perfect in the sun. Yes. If it was a sunnier climate, London would be just always like the place. It would be Barcelona It would be amazing. It would be some other place

But actually that's really sweet that you started off by talking about the tattoo and the heart and family because Yeah, a lot of what we're gonna be speaking about is is family and particularly motherhood actually. And when I do the podcast, I speak to working women who are mothers, but sometimes motherhood is not a massive part of what our conversation is about. But I have a feeling that with you and I today, it might be. Because, well, why don't we start with, there's lots of things I want to speak to you about, why don't we start with iMama? So this is a project that was born in lockdown is

that right yes so i guess lockdown for people who were considerably safe and healthy uh you know you did your amazing kitchen disco and i was doing what i do which is photography and i was quite sick at the beginning of lockdown and suddenly when i got better, I picked up my camera, which is what I often do to assess reality and see how I feel about things, what's going on. And it was really unclear what was going on at first and a bit scary. And so I started photographing my children and on socials I was looking at other photographers, filmmakers I follow, women doing the same. And to me it felt like these peepholes all around the world

into home and motherhood, but this sort of truthful lens, personal lens, and it just spoke to me and I thought, you know, is there a body of work like this? Has anyone collected this? In history, photographers, artists, looking at their own motherhood in a big collection and the answer is no it hasn't ever been collected. Which actually is extraordinary

isn't it really because I suppose what's happened with the digital age and everybody having access to brilliant cameras is that you can get an insight into maybe things that used to be the unseen moments. Spontaneity, I suppose historically depictions of motherhood would be through quite a, you know, elevated, serene expression. Yeah. And so being able to be in the nitty-gritty and plus the lockdown gave us all, all people raising people, we were suddenly, that was in our, I mean I'm using my hands to close around my face

just as I talk about it, but it was like, it was absolutely front and center of everything we were trying to do day by day. And I know that for me that time, some of it was really, it was nice to be home all the time, I usually travel a lot, but I also found a lack of head space. Absolutely excruciating at times actually. Yeah, and I think mum's more than dad's.

I mean, I'm generalizing. It's not true for everyone, but we were talking about this just before. It's harder to compartmentalize. Like often things overlap with us. Have the kids act together with have I taken the image or done my work, they'll sit in very similar spaces and overlap. And so it's really complicated, whereas I saw my partner much more compartmentalized. He'd go into the studio, do the work, wouldn't hear the kids while he's in there, come out,

cook, be with the kids, perfect. And I was sort of jealous of that compartmentalizing, because with me, it's one big scrambly egg. And I have to work really hard to say, wait, just leave that at the door. This is now the work, you know, the photography, the filmmaking, whatever it is, but it's harder. I always have like one voice saying like, hmm, didn't hear the kids for like an hour

or two or three or seven or you know, what's happening? Yeah, I big relate to all of that and your children so they're 10 and 18 now so I guess then What we're going back now five years. Yeah, so yeah five and 13 and it's interesting You're saying about that because yes, I know there's generalizations happening with the conversation, but actually having now spoken to well over 150 women, I can say that we have still passed on that the childcare, a lot of it falls to the mother of the house, a lot of the emotional tone falls to the mother of the house, and my kids will invariably go to me first before they will seek out anybody else for assistance with any manner of things. And also, you know, if Richard is, well, we're sitting in his studio now, I was jealous of that. He had his own room that had a door on it.

Do you not have your own room? I do not have my own room. You need a room of one's own. I know. And actually, I think probably the first 20 or 30 podcast episodes I recorded always mentioned how I wanted a room. I realised I was absolutely fixated by it but also in my domestic setup I have facilitated the compartmentalizing that goes on and I'm not saying that as a martyr it's more just something that's been handed to me as a way that things are done. Yeah. So if, I mean, poor Richard he's not here to defend himself but for example

if he's cooking Sunday lunch he's a brilliant cook it's wonderful when he does that but I might be the one going okay I'll facilitate that and I will take the kids and do something with them whereas if I'm cooking that doesn't necessarily happen. It'd be like hanging off your neck and leg. Yes, and mommy Can you do this and you're still trying to do three things? It's the scrambled egg thing. I think that is my brain actually My life scrambled egg. I mean there's pluses and minuses, you know Saul is the cook in the house and he's a really great like we call each other ma papa pama like mama and papa mixed

So we both do a lot of mixed roles. I love my boys seeing him cook. And sometimes I even feel he's a better mom because he can completely separate what's going on. Whereas with me, there's always a bit of guilt and a bit of missing out wherever I am. If I'm working, I'm like, why aren't I with the kids? If I'm with the kids, I'm like, why am I working? Not working. And so that thing is something we, and I see a lot of women deal with that.

How do we not feel guilty? How do we feel present with everywhere we're at and do it like we mean it, which is my favorite saying to my kids, do it like you mean it. Yeah, that's lovely. And I think also you and I, and actually 90% of people I know do not have conventional jobs where you go to an office. So we're very encouraged, as you

say, to be present with our mothering. But my phone is often also my office. So it's about giving myself space to get all those things done whilst I'm also with the family and amongst everything. There's lots to deal with I think. Absolutely and you've got a lot more of it. I mean I don't know how you got through the year. You've been through with Murder on the Dance Floor and Five Kids. I mean I take my hat off because I've only got two and I haven't had that year but it's a lot and also it's not just have you got yet, but it's a lot. And also, it's not just, have you got childcare or not, it's beyond that. It's how can you divide your love, your attention, your focus

to all these different things that you love. And without our work, I feel for sure I can say about myself and I think you too. We are also our work, our personality is very much based on the art that we make, not just our mothering. And I think I'm a better mom for being an artist as well. I feel more whole. But I have to say that to myself a lot, you know? Yes, I'm the same. I have to say it out loud

and give that a little bit of space and a bit of respect. I think the big thing that I've learnt is about involving the family in things, so that the work I do can actually be part of their lives too. And you and I share the fact that we work with our other halves. Yeah, that's... Do you know what most women tell me when they know that I work with Sol is, I wouldn't change a light bulb with my partner.

That's the first thing that they say to me. And I say, well, I don't change light bulbs with him. I co-work with him and it's a different challenge but we go through adventures together. I'm guessing it's the same with you guys. We don't have to be jealous of their adventures. They don't have to be jealous of us. We do it but it brings a whole lot of hardships with like what happens with the kids and we go through things together like the ups and downs a lot to you And also with you. Yeah, I think I'm giving boundaries to the project. So you're not oh, yeah

Well, I love my brother. Yeah, the kids have to tell us all the time. Are you talking about work? You know, can we not talk about what? Inspirit like but is inspiration work like if we have an idea. Yes idea, is that work or is that inspiration? And when do you stop going on about it? It's true. But I guess, I mean, how long have you been working with Saul? Well, I convinced him to work with me. I was first of all a photographer and that's where iMama Project comes from. It comes from the exact intersection of me being a photographer who's also a mother and what that means and how I can mix those two.

And in a way, iMama is probably the main place where I have mixed it in a way. But in the same breath, I want to say often not being a very present mom while making the project, because when you make a big project, it's not like you're going to do the puzzle every evening. You might be working, and Saul might be holding the fort for a little bit. And so, iMama has taken up a lot of space. I had to mother iMama book and project, just like the kids and the film work. And so, working with Saul, I tend to talk sideways.

You're going to have to rain me back in. Don't worry. I like it. That's how conversations go. I'm like a spider crab. Working with Saul, I tend to talk sideways. You're going to have to bring me back Like a spider crab did it So so yes, so I was a photographer and then I started making films and So was sort of assisting me in these films. I made for show studio for Nick Knight years and years ago on a stills camera I I was making these little stop frame films with dancers and it just became apparent that people were drawn to our work because he comes from animation and I come from live action and I'm female, he's male. And we had something going on that was more interesting in the work than separate. And so I sort of lured him into it. I think we didn't know how hard it, you know, we didn't have kids

then. So I, we started working together maybe 20 years ago. Our kid is 18. So we didn't know what it meant, but we just jumped in and we made these, you know, music videos that we started making for the Staves or Katie Malua, you know, or, you know, and they got some attention and, and then we couldn't turn back. Once you're carny and sore, that became the thing. And we often compliment, he's got a very good overview. He's very good with patience and details. I'm really impatient, but very passionate and much more sociable than him.

So it's a good mix, but it's, yeah, like sometimes it's hard. And now we have, we also over over the years each found our own niche. So I mama's definitely my baby and he's got you know, his book He's writing so we've realized we do have to sometimes find I don't know how if it's the same with you guys that you need separate things to you definitely and I think that's all part of The melting pot really because we've got lots Richard and I share a lot of things we work on together But I think the little satellites and the other projects we do I think that's all part of the melting pot really because we've got lots rich and I share a lot of things we work On together, but I think the little satellites and the other projects we do I think it's really healthy to have things that are our own to remember you're also an independent human who doesn't always have to consult or negotiate or Because the question we ask a lot and I don't know if it's the same with you guys

Do you write your songs together? No, we don't do that actually. He'll do production, and he'll work on the recording side with me, and we've done a lot of vocals in the room where we're sitting, so he'll be sat at the computer and doing the vocals with me, but the songwriting, we tried it years and years ago, it didn't go that well. It was quite hard.

I was so much worse behaved with him than I am with anybody else. Because we let ourselves write. Yeah, it was really petulant. Do you know what we have to do to work well together? Often we'll go out to a cafe because we're better behaved. Public. Like if we have an argument over like a music video or film,

we have to agree on things. And then the question we ask ourselves is, are we diluting the content by agreeing, or are we making it bigger by agreeing? Because we're including men and women, animation and live action, so possibly, I'd like to say it's that one, that we're enlarging our audience and making it more accessible by collaborating. But there is that tiny thought where you're sometimes saying, well, what about the auteurs in the

70s, like the male directors who just waltz in and yell this and that and make their dream project? But I was never, as a director, I don't really like that director image of being the dictator in the room, the yelling, all-consuming, ego-driven maniac, that's not going to be me. And I don't think it needs to be that way. It's just been handed down that way over years of men running pictures and films and those characters.

Yeah, and I think those sort of environments that used to have that trope, I do feel like that's, we've sort of learned a different way to exist now in work spaces. I think so. You can get things done with a quieter voice, with a calmer demeanor, everybody can be working a bit more, it can be functioning better, less out of fear.

Yeah, I want to think so. I mean, I know there's still directors who come on set like that, but when I went on my first set, first of all, you feel this imposter syndrome, which I don't know if you ever had, but massively, and especially in such a male-dominated arena, you come on and everyone looks at Saul.

Automatically, they'll also, just like moms are gravitated towards in the home, on set, people will gravitate towards Saul in a major way. Don't know if it happens with you too. And I have to be like, and instead of being, hey, hey, I'm here, and being all nice. I become bad cop Like I have to offset it by being so will often be the good cop on set. Mm-hmm And I have to nearly contradict what people are expecting for my cute Russian face and smile

Just like we said with emerald, you know where you look at her. It's one thing but you see salt burn. It's another thing Yes. Yes. They're very true and you have to assert that and make a point of it. So going back to I'm Mama, because I want to make sure we have properly celebrated and talked about this. And I'm holding a beautiful book in my hand, and I've had it on the kitchen table for a little while now. And it's all depictions of motherhood from, is it 60 different countries? Yeah, 60, 70 maybe now even. I mean the pictures are beautiful and there's different things that resonate. There's a couple where you think, oh I recognize that feeling or I recognize that mood

and other things that just make you think, they're beautiful. It's a lovely project and it's astonishing actually that we haven't had this mother gaze celebration in this way. And I also like the fact that it's iMama EYE because in interviews, Owen, I was reading about you, you call yourself, you see yourself as an eye a lot. So it's a nice reflection of that and of how powerful a photograph can be and what a lovely medium it is. I've always liked photography anyway.

It's so powerful. I mean there's the whole cliché of like you can say so much more in an image but images can be elusive and I think the problem, I really made the book and the project I was missing and I am an eye but I wasn't seeing enough of what I was feeling and that was the duality of being a mother, the hardships, the beauty, but not one or the other alone, which is often what you get. And society tends to either showcase influencers or Pampas commercials, it's either Maria or it's like, ha ha, I spilt poo all down my top or whatever sick.

And so I was looking for this very beautiful but very honest, I think self-portrait, and these are all self-portraits in photography, so it's a very well-made image, a very engaging, beautiful, powerful image of what it means to be a mother today. And I call it the dark and light, and I think photography needs dark and light because you can't have one without the other. And the same is with motherhood. I don't think we would enjoy the motherhood as much if it wasn't also the most painful, fearful, crazy, hard job in the world. We wouldn't enjoy the hugs and the love and

we wouldn't have earned them in a way. I often feel like remote parenting, if you're not doing any of the hard work yourself, you're also not going to enjoy the intimacy as much. Love is the same. You have to have the hardships and the work like anything meaningful. And so seeing motherhood as like this very flat depiction of what others think of it wasn't doing it for me. I wasn't feeling seen. And so I think by making this, I felt like, oh, I feel seen now and that's making me feel less alone. When I started collecting it on Instagram, it made me feel better and connected. And then others were writing in and saying, it makes me feel seen.

It makes me feel less alone, less bad about my parenting. And women often scrutinize themselves and their motherhood and how well or not well they're doing by what they see out there. And if all they're seeing is this perfect motherhood, they're going to deem themselves as unfit mothers or not as good. And then that leads to lots of things we're dealing with today, like depression, anxiety, inadequacy. And it's such a shame instead of elevating each other, these amazing, you know, beings and women and mothers.

Yes. And I think as well, there's so much about the unseen moments. And in photography, much about the unseen moments and in photography these individuals have allowed into those moments that normally are just like one little moment in the day but when you maybe feel at your most, I don't know, loved or stretched or alone or engulfed in one way or another these little passing moments and I think whether or not motherhood isn't isn't all I'm not all thumbs up for all of it but I also would say it's something that completely I haven't articulated that very well I think what I mean to say is it's always been important to me through these conversations that it's not about how motherhood is the best thing that's ever happened and if you haven't joined that club well sorry but you're missing out that's not it it's

just huge it's a universal thing we've all had mothers we've all been we've all had child all children all children exactly so that's that's something that's in cup said There's also a billion stories out there more of what's happened in the untold moments, all the things people have been dealing with behind the scenes when they've also been going out into the world and raising people or doing their jobs or all the big shakes. And also for whatever you, however you view motherhood, it has changed who I am, it is part of who I am, it's incredibly defining part of me.

And that's why I love having these conversations. Because I think on, sometimes on Instagram, it's always got to have the caption and as you say, it can be the, oh, you know, my, well, everything is so wonderful and it makes it look elevated. You often put the highlights reel, right? It's an edited reel. It is not necessarily reality. No, or you might do the opposite and say, this is all crap, and I don't really want that either.

So I think I love the fact that with photography, where it's just left to tell its own story, and you find yourself in it, or an insight into someone else. Exactly. But you're not always trying to encapsulate it in words. Exactly. And I think in some ways a lot of meaningful things are beyond words and that's why songs, film, photography are so crucial for our humanity.

We often say things with that that are more complex in meaning, you know, and obviously writers do that really well in literature, but I'm not a writer. Like you say, I often call myself an eye, and sometimes an iron heart. And an eye, a big eye is really my only talent. I know when something is meaningful and powerful visually. And this was nearly a calling to me when I saw the junction of my motherhood and my ability to recognize good images collide. I felt this calling to showcase it to the world because I was like, what if nobody else ever does it? Or what if they do it but they don't recognize the important images? Or what if they do it less

truthfully? And so I felt like once I'd seen it, I couldn't unsee it, and then I just had to work. If I knew how much work it would be for four years, and it's been an amazing journey, but also really hard work and that mix. And so I don't know if I would have dived in, because I'd never curated before, I'd never collected images in this way before, I never had an Instagram platform that I had to run, which is a curse and a blessing in itself, you know, and a lot of work. So, it's this ride. But what I wanted to say as well about the collection is, I wanted to make it the opposite of any curation or project that I've seen that I didn't like, which was, I wanted to make it wide open. I wanted it to be anyone who considers themselves a mama,

and mama is a term of endearment. It could be a carer of any kind who raises children. And anyone who considers themselves a photographer, again, it's a very exclusive club. I didn't want to say only if you've had three exhibitions in a book can you be included. I wanted those things to be open and plus, to include things that are even more unseen, like IVF, miscarriage, abortion.

Women who struggle with motherhood are also dealing with motherhood. That is part of the journey. You know, so I'm just like you. I'm not an advocate for saying, you know, be a family, have kids. I'm saying let's look closely at motherhood and care and empower it. I think we should have our own choices whether we want to be a mother or not is part of our choice. kids, I'm saying, let's look closely at motherhood and care and empower it. I think we should have our own choices, whether we want to be a mother or not is part of our choice. I just think we need to look at it closely so we can empower it and give it visibility in a proper way.

We're doing ourselves a disservice by showing it as perfect, easy motherhood. That's when you get the bang and you're like, oh my god, what did I just do? You know, you don't want that. You want to be like, oh, I've been raised in the reality of motherhood. I know it's got good bits and bad bits and I'm entering it with my eyes wide open and my heart wide open. Yeah, it's true and I think all those conversations are so valid and helpful. I wish that had been around when I was becoming a mum. Does it make you have a different image of your mother as well? Probably. I mean, you know, my mum gave up certain dreams to be our mum,

and she wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. I think I've become the flip side of that, wanting to actually keep my career. But in those days, my mom probably didn't have a choice. My dad was out the door before you could say, you know, Jack Robinson to work, and mom stayed home, and that was how it was. And I think she's always loved it,

and she's a very good mom. She's a great grandma as well. and I really see her with my kids probably being more patient and motherly sometimes than I am because the juggle makes it really hard like do I want to do a puzzle at 8 p.m. after a whole day of working and making dinner and picking up the kids and not always like puzzles are my weak point I'm gonna come straight out and mention puzzles a couple of puzzles in your family my mom When they were little I mean, you know what I do is I bring them into my world I say like how about we go and do a photography walk and do I love something called an or walk when we go to school

We'll try and look for things that bring oar to us Oh, that sounds lovely and then you you take pictures of them or you just remember them and go like just like click or look at them Yeah, yeah, like a little bank Do you I've got an idea can you take my kids on an oar walk and I'll do puzzles with your mom's I love doing There we go But that's why we should be a community because because often one mum will love one thing and the other. What I feel is I want to show up for my kids in an authentic way.

And to me that means drawing, it means going on walks in nature. I love nature. I love shells. I'm a shell addict. I love museums, galleries, and I love photography, and I love making films, and all those things I'll do with them. I love dancing, good dance with my boys while they agree to do it, of course. And, you know, so I bring all of that, and then I might not have patience for other things, and I'll sort of grit my teeth through a couple of years of puzzles while they're

little, and then like, goodbye puzzles. Yeah, I think it's good to recognise that you don't have to be good at all of it. And it's okay if you're, if you feel the areas where you are, I love doing, like, I like doing crafting with my kids, that makes me really happy. Let's make something, drawing, colouring, painting. Do you sing with them?

Yeah, we'll have music on all the time. I mean, poor things. I sing little songs all the time. I think it is probably very annoying, but like, can't help it. So I'll sing about everything. I saw you have a very annoying but I can't help it so I'll sing about everything. I saw you have a thing for the sound of music which I have too.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Big fan of sound. Julie Andrews in general. I know. I actually asked her to do a cameo on my album and she very nicely said no but that would have been hard to read. Come on Julie. Oh my god. Yeah, I love Julie Andrews. But I think there's other things I find that don't spark my joy when I'm playing. My youngest likes lots of mini plays, so he'll get figures and he'll say, you be that one and we have to do voices and adventures.

I'm not that good at that. I get a bit distracted. I say things and he says, no, you don't say that. That character doesn't say that. No, that's not the voice. I don't know. What was it you say? We learn so much because they're like a mirror, aren't they? And often you see yourself faking

something and you don't like yourself in that moment. Definitely. And then you're like, oh, actually, is it okay to just say, I'm not, you know, motherhood doesn't have to be this cookie cutter. That's what I'm trying to say, I guess. It doesn't have to be a cookie cutter image. If you don't like figure play or if you don't like puzzles, it doesn't mean you're a less good mom. It means you're a different mom. Different moms can be cool and fun. And I think they see us working and they respect us and they love us. And if you don't work, they might respect and love you for that too. But I just feel that you have to be who you

are or you're not going to do it like you mean it, which is what I always preach. And then how can you preach it if you're not actively practicing it? I do completely agree with that. And actually in the long run, for however they see you when they're small, when they get older, they see you in more 360. And so if there are things you've parked thinking that's what they need to see from you they actually recognize it when they're older and feel a bit sad that you did that actually. Yeah I think so. Sometimes when you start a project

you start for one reason and then as you go you realize there are other things that you needed from it that you didn't realize on the surface. So were there things about the i'm Mama project that you kind of learnt that you needed as you went that weren't quite what you saw at the beginning? Yeah, I mean I'm completely changed from this project. First of all I learnt that the personal is political. Gloria Steinem says it and I think it's very true. I'm always like, oh I'm just about photography, I'm not about politics. Motherhood is all intertwined.

You talk about one thing, you end up with another. And I feel like giving visibility to motherhood is empowering it. I might not be going to change a law, but by giving visibility or giving it a platform to empathize with, people can connect with it, and you're starting your conversation starter opener. And so I think that's explained a lot to me and I've had to learn to articulate what I think and what I feel about mothers and women's rights to educate myself further. And whether it's reading books or watching documentaries or engaging with other women. And plus I've made hundreds of new friends all over the world. you know, books or watching documentaries or engaging with other women. And plus I've made hundreds of new friends all over the world.

You know, women would DM me in the middle of the night, and this might happen to you by women who admire your music or by other mothers and artists who are photographers connecting with me, DMing me and saying, you know, I feel really helpless. And I'd say to them, well, you're not helpless because you've sent an image to me and I might repost that and somebody else might see that and feel better about themselves. That's not helpless.

You might feel helpless, but that amplification and that connection that we have of, I call it a spider web of eyes and hearts, that goes a long way. And it might be very feminine way of working and interconnecting and even calling it a very feminine way of working and interconnecting and even calling it a spider. I'm thinking of Louise Bourgeois and the spider and the weaver and the connector.

But I met so many women and realized there's women who are suffering much more than me. There are women who are suffering less. I'm very blessed and I feel really grateful to have a partner and kids and a home and a profession. But you know, motherhood is so, it makes you part of humanity. It really makes you feel like we're animals and we're interconnected in a much deeper way than we know because a woman in Japan who's a mum will talk to me about breastfeeding as if she lives next door. But she's in Japan or Africa or Indonesia. We got images from Indonesia which I'm really proud about getting it all the way from there. And so I think it's made me

have more empathy and connection than before, realising the world is much smaller than you think, and probably touring does that to you, I imagine. It does, yes. I love travel. But I think also, just the older I get, the more curiosity I have about other people's experience of life, and the more empathy, and the more I'm keen I like a description of the spiderweb. I is all about that which connects us and

and I suppose You know we have so much So many images thrown at us all the time and you know new stories are brought to life in a way they weren't when I was a child, but I suppose the the are brought to life in a way they weren't when I was a child. But I suppose the overwhelm you can feel from that can be turned into also making the world feel more connected and you can enter into all those different life experiences even if it's just, you know, for a moment

when you're reading a story or seeing an image and then you feel the humanity can sing out from that, which is powerful. Absolutely, and I think the little tiny personal stories that I heard from each mum, first of all, it makes me realize that everybody has their ride. If they haven't had a C-section, they've had problems breastfeeding.

If they haven't had issues with anxiety, lack of sleep, there's always something that they need to handle and deal with, and that's okay, and you can still have tons of love and joy. The other thing I wanted to make sure from this book and project was that I wasn't putting women off motherhood. So you often, motherhood is such a touchy subject, so women would say, are you advocating

for being a mom? No. Is this a feminist project? Yes. But also I don't want to put women off being a mom because I'm showing truths. I think you just have to know that this is a beautiful, powerful, heartbreaking, joyful, tough, lovely, amazing, life-changing experience that's going to have many, many, many different things in it, episodic, and that's why it's more meaningful.

And all these women sharing their stories made me realize that there's just so many stories, and the personal is the global, you know, in the end, all interconnected. I think sharing it is really, really important, and it makes you feel like more of a tribe. In these days of being so isolated on social media, sharing it is really, really important and it makes you feel like more of a tribe. In these days of being so isolated on social media and I see moms, I didn't raise my kids

when there was a phone with emails that much, so I would just push the buggy and sit in the playground. Often when I see moms on their iPhone while pushing the buggy, without being judgy, I'm like, wow, this is so much tougher, very isolating in a way. You connect to everyone, but you also connect to no one in a way. I feel like sharing truths to me seems like a better way in social media to connect the dots. Of course, you need to meet people outside and be in nature and sunshine, but also you

need to make sure you're seeing things that make you feel good and that you know I have this recipe that I figured out for my mama one of the things I learnt that you don't get happy by sharing happy images you often get happy by sharing more truthful images. Yeah I think that's very true actually because happy can feel like something that you're not able to obtain or keep hold of. Fleeing. Yes, exactly. And actually, it might sound, when you said that, it reminded me of when I got married

and my mum said to me, it sounds like a funny bit of advice, but she said something like, I'm going to miss quite enough. She's not here. You know, you're not trying to be happy all the time. You can just aim for sort of good enough. And I think that was actually a good bit of advice for the long term because otherwise you can sometimes feel that you're supposed to be living in this bubble

of it all being wonderful all the time. And that's not reality. And the same with parenthood. You know, there's the good moments and it's enriching. But there's a lot of times when you're just doing the everyday and that's fine too. We all have to rub alongside each other. Everybody's got their own world.

Each of my kids have got their own thing going on. What was your first, when you first became mum, what was happening in your life? How did you find that chapter? Well, you know, weirdly I never talk about it in relation to iMama because it was 18 years ago. Does it feel like a totally different... I was a different person then, but weirdly it sits exactly on this junction, probably more than my second child, because both my boys were really easy babies on one hand, but they never slept. So I was a nutcase for the first three years, probably due to my own fault and my partner for not doing like some sort of sleep routine or whatever, but also because that's the way they were. They wanted

to be on ours and that's how we let them be. Our careers were sort of weird, so we could in a way. So my partner really shared the responsibility with me, but I remember just losing my mind from lack of sleep and then with my first day also had a herniated disc, so actually for eight months I couldn't walk. So I think I've, I probably cry now, I probably buried it so deep that I didn't even realise that it's why I made I'm mama, but I think it was such a tough first encounter with motherhood, not being able to walk or lift my child for eight months until I had a back operation, and I was, you know, on a hill. We were living in Devon then, quite rural. Very quickly it became the shining. They were like moths on the net and I was

just like freaking out. And so we moved to Bristol. But it was so lovely. And then as soon as something happened, it was so horrific for me personally to be a mum with a herniated disc and not what I imagined. I wanted to like carry my baby on me and walk around and be like relaxed and cool and I was everything but but coming out of that experience into my second kid and it was eight years later I think I needed to recover mentally, physically and get back to work. I didn't want to give up my work so easily, and I knew with two young kids it would be hard. I didn't have family close by, so I was more ready to go into it with my second but a much

older mum. So in my 40s, being called a geriatric mum, I don't know if you had that with you. Yeah, my last one at 39. So geriatric mum, which was just super cozy to hear. And then it was much harder to have, again, the lack of sleep, stepping away from the career for a little bit again was harder being an older mom. And, but on the other hand, I knew what I was getting into.

So, and I had my older kid and, you know, it was both of them were magical and I love my boys to bits and it's amazing watching them become who they are. You know? Yes, it really is. I suppose you're... Well, first I'm sorry as well that you had all that when you had your first. That sounds very isolating.

It was. And I imagine... I think you always... Well, I felt like I had to find myself again after I had my first baby. I always wanted to be a mum and I was so happy to be Sonny's mum, but I just felt all topsy turvy. Like, okay, who am I exactly?

And how do I marry this new version of me with all the things that mattered to me before? It took me a few years, I think, to find my way back to myself. Because there's no yellow brick road for you and me as well, being a filmmaker, being a singer, songwriter. Nobody tells you how to do it, and so you have to build your own system and network within that, and that takes time and is quite confusing. And often the mums are the ones at that junction of like figuring out sometimes what's going on with the childcare

and often we would take our first with us when we were filming stuff and he would like see the sights with the nanny and then come back and we'd hug him in the evening but it wasn't always possible when we went to China for a commercial, I had to stay back with my mum. There was swine flu, lots of crazy stories of, I'm sure you have too, you know, do you leave your kid if they have a cold? What do you do? How do you juggle everything? And I feel that's all in my headspace all the time. Definitely. And I think when I first had, when they're babies,

they're really portable and it's like, oh, I feel really clever, I can just bring my kid and then they get older and you think, oh, I cannot do this anymore. Sometimes you want the time apart. Sometimes you need the time with a distance, with a door. I really relate to that thing of you saying that he was in here in the studio and me and Saul share a studio,

but we would like battle each other in lockdown. Who would get the studio time? Yes. Yeah, you need that space, definitely. And yeah, I mean, people say to me, are you taking your kids on tour? I'm like, no. I would find that a real strain for me. They'd get bored, but also I'd just be thinking, okay, now I've got to try and get my head in the game for what I'm doing. So I need to focus on my work sometimes. I think I've got better at framing it, but I think it took me 15 years, probably, to talk about it in the right way.

It takes a long time. And also you guys travel together again, which is hard, because it's nearly like there's no one to steer the ship, or I don't know if your mum steps in, or family, or nannies, or childminders. Yes, exactly. But it's never simple like you know one cold throws you off course, one school event, one you know yeah things that happen in life and affect you. Yes you can definitely feel

like you're in the wrong place like oh I should be home right now but by and large, it's been okay and I'm very lucky because I do have lots of support. And I also think it's a benefit that I can call the shots with my work, I can decide when I'm working and if I want to bring my kid that's fine. Yeah, we're really privileged, like also just to do what we love. Yes. And then to have kids and to have the adventure as a family. You know, we shot Wild Summon, this recent film we did together as a family, because of lockdown in a way, we stopped hiding the kids. Often you hide the kids on like work scenarios

or commercials or music videos. I sort of, I called it putting my man hat on. I would like waltz in, like I don't have a care in the world, really pretending in a way, because I thought that's how I'd be more accepted and easier and that's what people wanted. And somehow lockdown broke that a bit and I was like, well, I'm just going to go make this film however we want. And we took the kids but it has its own challenges it's not always easy. So how did you make that movie? So this is your BAFTA nominated short film which is very beautiful

so it's the the journey the life of a wild salmon but as a woman and it's animation with beautiful scenery. Live action scenery so we shot it in Iceland. Iceland oh I got it really wrong I I don't know why I had it in my head that maybe some of it was Scotland. Iceland and Scotland look similar in the north. That's fenerous of you. Well, in some manner. You're helping me out there. But also Scotland has some of the last, I think, salmon and that's...

We wanted to go to the scenarios where the backgrounds and nature where salmon still are or existed or exist. And actually the rivers in England are quite polluted and hard to shoot in. So after trying for a while, we film a lot of stuff ourselves and it was BFI commissioned. And so we wanted to tell the story of the salmon as a human woman to try and get empathy and connect people to the narrative of this... It's extraordinary. ...iconic story of basically finding your way back home.

It is extraordinary. Which has this metaphorical storytelling as well. Yes, no it's wonderful and it really, it's really beautifully told. I love the animation in it. It's moving and really one extraordinary journey. Those salmon go. It's amazing and once you put a human,

the thing is we empathize with human form. So once you put a human form instead of a salmon form, you stop thinking of it as sushi or whatever it is you think about. Or salmon just are like the lowest, they're not like the cute polar bears. Right? So we've got this certain detachment from them. And so by putting a human there, you're like, well, what if it was ours? And actually we are animals and we should treat animals better and humans

better and we're not really telling people what to do we didn't want to be a preachy eco it's called an eco fantasy film but we wanted to let people think for themselves and be like well hmm and people did come up and you know it was premiered in Cannes and then it was BAFTA nominated and you know when her throat is slit, people, women, like, reach for their throat. When they come out, they say they felt like they were on a journey or they don't want to eat salmon sometimes, which wasn't necessarily what we set out to do. But we were trying to get people to feel something. And actually, we're bombarded by imagery and stuff.

It's hard to feel things anymore. So we were really just trying. And Marianne Faithfull, you know, it's hard to find an iconic voiceover that's a woman, that is recognizable. And so we went through a lot of thoughts and got to Marianne and she kindly did the VO for us. And she's a survivor. I was thinking of as a woman, you know, survivor resilience, going through a journey. It's very much about women, about mothers, you know, her journey has been insane. And so once we recorded it, we knew it was perfect. It was sort of a gamble, but... It is. It feels like really the right person.

Yeah. And you're not entirely sure, but you think it might have been the last, one of the last jobs she did? I think it might be the last job she did. She was quite sick when I came in, and I'll tell you this story, that I went to record her in this sort of old people's home where she was staying,

because she had a coma from COVID, and she was quite unwell. And it's quite a famous place where people grow old in, I guess. Quite a well-known place for celebrities, and actors, and singers. So I came in and said to her, stupidly, I was like, oh, do you like make projects together and like make films?

And she looked at me with like icy eyes and said, we come here to die. And I was like, right, should we record the video then? I stepped right in it. It's just like, oh you were making films together. Just like, no. To be fair, you weren't working with her that day. No, she loved to work and she did a good job and she's just a tough lady. We come here to die as a lady. I know, it kind of threw me in. Again, I was like with my outside persona, we're trying to be really nice and friendly and but

Once she was in work mode. She did a brilliant job, and I thought it was really nice to give the atom Brow esque Female narrative so because it's an eco Fantasy world some and a lot of people were like oh you can get atom Bruton do it And I was like I'd love to but then the more we got into it the more I thought why would a woman be voiced by a man? Didn't make any sense, especially since it was a woman, not an animal. Yeah.

And that's how it evolved and got to where it was. So I can see that you do short filmmaking, commercial sometimes, music videos, photography. Do you have a medium that feels the most like home? I mean, I sort of moved away from photography into film and was making a living, you know, from all the music videos and the commercials for a long time and the short films that we made. And now we're moving into long form. So I think film is sort of my home now, but photography is always in the background, like a sort of lifeline of documenting everything I go through.

Ask my kids, like I just said before, you know, if aliens came down to earth and looked at our photo albums, but this is for a lot of moms, they'd think they were orphan children, like at least without a mom, right, because all the pictures are of their dad and them. Mm-hmm. Because I'm the photographer. Yeah, yeah. So it's not like I'm ignored, but I'm the one behind the camera and the lens,

so I document it. So I feel like whenever I'm sick, or after, actually, after giving birth to both of my boys, two weeks postpartum, I would pick up my camera and do a first shoot. And that's how I knew I was okay, because you don't pick up a camera unless you're okay. Just like you might not record a song or... Oh, yeah.

It's like I'm kicking into a person again. And so from that postnatal period, obviously there was a long way to go still, but I always document them on their birthdays together. Every year I've documented them and so I did it then and they're always on the carpet, sort of, I do a top shot and in the first portrait I took of them my little new baby peed on my bigger kid and there's a picture of him laughing hysterically. So every year since your eldest was born you've taken a picture of him on his birthday and they're all always in the same...

Always on the carpet so I'm top shot. I stand on a chair above them and they're on the carpet looking up at me. That's so sweet. And now he's 18. Is he still completely... I did it last year after two years where he was kicking and screaming a bit about not being in it and then he agreed last year, I don't know what will happen this year, it's usually summer, usually I can convince

them because in the end we have a bit of a laugh, like they used to be naked, of course now they're not naked. Danielle Pletka That's because no one is kicking and screaming. Sarah Dixon They used to be naked, but I'd sort of crop it at the waist, but now they're less, and sometimes I'd put produce around them, like flowers or things that I found in the garden, nearly like pictorial images, but it's really weird. Like I had to connect. It's like I had to

understand them growing up and me mothering through this photography of, I was saying before as well, like we don't often get to reflect on our motherhood because we're so much in the moment of just managing and getting through the day. So this we don't often get to reflect on our motherhood because we're so much in the moment of just managing and getting through the day. So this is my way I guess of saying I was here and this is what I was going through and then looking back at it in a way. Yeah and also you get to that touchstone of another year gone, they're getting older, some things, some moods you feel like they're, you're always going to be in that same space but it's nice to actually witness the passing of time and

children are the easiest barometer of time passing aren't they they just constantly evolving one summer to the next you know the clothes getting too small the toys not being played with it it just moves. And I love that saying, the days are long, the years are short. I think it's one of the best sayings on motherhood. Do you not? I really don't like that. What's that, the years? The days are long, the years are short.

Oh no, I hate it. For me it's like, lose, lose. I think it's become too cliché. It's nearly like when you hear a song in the supermarket too much and then you hate it but you used to love it. I feel like it says something important in an easy way which is the days might be really boring or really hard but you're gonna miss them. I know but don't you think it's like worst way? Well or the day might be really amazing and really full of love but tomorrow will be terrible but then

they'll be... What I feel is in a way we don't have the perspective of looking back and thinking no matter how hard it is or how intense it is, you are going to miss it. And so I think finding little moments of joy to me is the key for survival. I agree with that. You know? The all walks. Yes, I love the idea of the all walks and I agree with the idea of trying to remember that the thing, you know, one day you'll be the last time you, you know, do their shoelace or whatever.

It is a bit sad, but yeah. I suppose the reason I don't like it is I think the time it would pop into your head are when you're feeling like you are being dragged a bit, you know, those days where you do feel a bit overwhelmed and tired and a bit of a… I get those where I feel like a husk, you know? Like I have lost myself completely in... Husk is a good word. Yeah, just bring the, you know, I'm using my dressing gown, carrying bits from one room to another, checking on one, oh, I'm hungry, I don't know, and you're like, oh, I've lost... I mean, I just exist

in that moment just to sort of serve, I suppose, And that's when that phrase might pop into my head. And then I think, I want to be able to just be in the kind of, I'm not actually going to miss that aspect. Yeah. Without feeling guilty for feeling, so maybe that's, that says it all about me. Well, that's a good, you know, I think it's just, you need crutches and you need friends and you need women in your life.

And you need also just that self need friends and you need women in your life and you need also just that self-awareness to be like This is just a moment and my kids are loved And I can mess up and I can show them that I can mess up and then Make up or be better and I feel like showing kids our weaknesses is probably an important lesson And showing them, you know making I mama I had some huge meltdown points where I was like crying on the floor in despair when things weren't wrong, when things failed, when I couldn't raise the money, when, you know, when things happened that weren't expected or great things happened, we were showed in National Geographic or Vogue,

and that roller coaster, the kids seeing me persevere through that, and then getting the book and then my kid was the one who wrote the Times of Day that the book is divided into. So that was my way of bringing him into the project, you know, and they inspired this book. So I was like, you have to show, I can't give up because then I'm showing my kids that I've given up. Yep. So that's just as important as like other things. That's so sweet that that's what he's writing. I know like his little writing noon and I feel like my boys have probably grown to be and will be maybe better partners, husbands, whatever, for seeing this book and this work.

I feel like motherhood should be for everyone. Yep. Because you know this thing that we are children and you, they've seen this book, they each have a copy that I signed and wrote some things in for them. I feel like it's important for them to engage with this. Just like I talk to my youngest about me being in manopause now, he calls it monopoly. You're in your monopoly. How long is your monopoly going to last for?

That's a good comparison because that game goes on for ages and sometimes I don't know what's going on in that game either. And you get moody in that game too. How long is your monopoly mood going to last for? But actually it's funny because the more we're talking the more I realise that my podcast and your book have got quite similar roots, haven't they? Yeah. We kind of needed to shine a light on maybe the bits where we were feeling, the bits that we don't normally share on finding in other people, and how much better I feel after, you know, after seeing the photographs, but also, you know, the truths as you were talking about.

Yeah, and talking to you, like, often my project is silent, that's the weird thing. I'm quite chatty in connecting. But the project of visuals is silent, the images the weird thing. I'm quite chatty in connecting, but the project of visuals is silent. The images do the work for you, but talking to you about it now, touching on, let's say, that scar that I had with the herniated disc and not walking, you know, often our outside persona is like, I'm doing fine. It's also the way we're meant to be as women. I'm fine. I'm happy. I'm friendly or I'm pleasing or whatever that is. And maybe it's okay not to be fine and, you know, mix that in a bit

and you know, you don't have to bitch and moan all the time. But that's why I think women, I find women more and more important as well, you know, friends and women to share with. But also this has been my community, the iMum community. Community is so important. It really makes all the difference, doesn't it? Yeah, we don't have it that much. You know, we used to have more of a village. You know, women had babies, they had their neighbors and their moms and things were much more intertwined. I think we've lost the village, but we haven't found the replacement. I mean Instagram is not a village It's kind of a place you could reach out into the universe and be like, oh, I found some women I like but It's not a village. You know, they won't hold the baby for you and

Or cook you you know or make you a tea You also can't choose which villagers you're sharing which things with. All the villages might come and might be the wrong villages. Yeah, sometimes the creepy people creeping. Mean villages. I'm not talking to you. Well, before we finish, I just want to ask you about your home life with the boys

because obviously the two of you, you and Saul are so creative. I'd like to have a little idea of how... I feel like your home is maybe quite creative space. I love the idea of the all walk, but how else has your... the way your minds work been incorporated? And how have you actually found it with the things that aren't,

you know, like the sort of... the bits of motherhood that you have to get involved with even though it's not necessarily your brain is anymore, like school and turning up for those things. Well, I befriended the headmaster at our school very early on. Smart. Said to him, we're artists, we work in different ways, we have different breaks and different times and it's really important for us to have well-being time with our kids and sometimes that doesn't align with how the

rest of the world works. And I think he couldn't officially agree with what I was saying, but I don't want to say his name. But I think he agreed because he really loves my younger kid who goes to school and he's very creative and has kind of this very sturdy well-being about him, like he's in the world and well adjusted despite our chaos, because often they say kids love routine, right? But we can't, I mean, we do have routine within the chaos, but it's a lot of chaos as well. And I feel like you have to make the best of it. And so my way of making the best of it is doing really nice times and having nice time in nature where we collect wood and shells. And they went to Steiner schools when they were little. I really like them being sort

of muddy. We're not that, you know, academia is important, but not that important to us. And so we always say to them, find something that you really love and that will get you through a lot. You know, find something you're good at and that you love. It doesn't have to be art. It happens that our eldest one is doing, making his second film and he's a DOP and drone operator. So he's kind of, he did the drone on Wild Summon film. No way. So he was like the youngest, as far as I know, the youngest DOP at Cannes. That's incredible.

We were there because he did the drone at age 16 with us. We sort of use them for cheap labor. Secretly. I'm trying. Secretly. But you know, the little one as well, like he loves pitching in on ideas for music videos. Often when we do a music video, we'll play the song and be like, oh, we're thinking, do a brainstorminging session but the kids will be there too. And so often they'll pitch in with that and they'll feedback on those things. And when we're making the film sometimes they're with us, like with the last one, but it doesn't always work out that way. And at home, you know, I love collecting things from nature and looking.

I love cabinets of curiosities, and we have those in all the kids' rooms, and we collect a lot of nature stuff. And then we all take pictures, all of us. The problem with us is the opposite. It's like, who is the director? We all think we're the director. So if we're doing anything, every single one of us thinks they're in control. And so that can be sometimes confusing. But

you know, we do a lot of photography, we do, our younger one loves drawing and actually I'm going to get his tattoo. Have you got tattoos of any of your kids' drawings? You might have too many to come up with. I've only got one tattoo. Yeah, but family. Yeah, and that for me was quite a good one because it's like all encompassing, but non-specific. So, I didn't have to like change it when a new baby was born.

They're already born, it's all fine. Tick, you should like add an element every like little dot somewhere. But I like that. What's the drawing going to be? So, my eldest kid, I drew his drawing from when he was a kid here. And so this space is for my other kid, which I haven't done yet, but I'm about to do, I said when I was going to do it when I turned 50, so it's basically now. But we do a lot of drawing and photography. And you know, it's probably like you guys, when the music is there, I was just watching the Billie Eilish documentary, and when the music is there around you, when the

art is there around you, it's just immersive. So everything we do, every wall with you has got things that we consider beautiful or inspiring and It seeps in in the undercurrent and you don't notice and then the kids Have that and I think that's very powerful that they you know, I really love Light on the wall, you know when it's a sunny day and there's like a flicker of light through a curtain or window. I and there's like a flicker of light through a curtain or a window. I call myself a light hunter, but I think it's got a metaphorical version because I hunt light as a photographer, but I also hunt beauty and like magical things that look beautiful and I point them out to my kids and sometimes of course I'm grouchy and yelling just like everyone else. It's

not like I'm some magical mum pointing out magic. But in between the yelling and the chaos and the meltdowns, I'm showing them the things. And that's the plus side of that flip side of, I guess, juggling the art and the work with the kids, is that I show them those things. And on the walk to school, we have this amazing magnolia tree that we look at changing, and it's beautiful. And then when I was just doing this crowd funder for iMama recently, my little kid, I said, can you write me something encouraging on my like cheering up board so when I'm down I can just like look at it and like cheer me on. Because sometimes you need that like a cheerleading slogan board thing.

And he wrote this sentence for me and I couldn't believe it that he had noticed it, that it says, we're all in the gutter but some of us are looking up at the stars. And I adore that saying by, I've just forgotten his name now, but it will come to me. It's not Fitzgerald, is it? No, it's, you'll have to look it up, listeners. Yes, I should know that. I've lost his name, but it's such a beautiful saying and I say it all the time and suddenly he bought it to me

That's lovely as encouragement and I was like, oh wow. Yeah, that's a tiny moment but no, but that's really magic when that happens because you realize that all the dots are meaning something because I think Children so naturally live in a creative way So when they are absorbing it and shining it back at you and you'll think oh yeah I hadn't noticed that or that's an interesting thought you had about that and it doesn't really matter what they go out and do in the world I just think it's a nice way for your head to work isn't it? Yeah absolutely and my little kid's doing a lot of stop-frame films now and putting them on the class Google room shared room and so he inspired a lot of

the kids in class to do other stop-frame films. So I feel like there's this knock-on effect of sharing art and creativity that's really contagious. I think it's really powerful and fun. Yeah, definitely. Oscar Wilde is there. Yes. Thank you. Can't say it right. That was Claire. Yeah, Claire. Disrespect. Yes, yes. Such a great sentence. We're all in the gutter, but some of us are looking up at the stars.

And I think that's art, really. Yes. My nine-year-old loves art. He wants to be an artist when he's big. And he went and looked at a lot of art, and he had to write in the guest book, and he said something like, I like the way the art took good thoughts to my head,

or something like this. And I was like, that's so sweet. It's like, that's a nice feeling too. Because it's just healing and it does. Often the things that we channel into our art is how we deal with our feelings. And yeah, and actually how lovely that this, your I'm Mama project came out of a time when actually the arts were being so devalued and silenced and locked down. But actually it's art that

allows us to interpret feelings. We need it. Absolutely and you know what lockdown showed me exactly the opposite how much we need the arts. Yeah completely. Without the arts I wouldn't have survived lockdown. I was looking at people making these amazing projects and making things out of nothing and survival is about creativity. Yes and it's how humanity is how we process things and tell the story. Well which is a lovely note to end on. Thank you so much guys. I love talking to you and I also when I'm on tour I want and I come to Bristol I wanna come and see your cabinets with you. Please come and say hi, we'd love to have you.

That'd be nice. Amazing. Hey, gave myself another place to go and have a tea during the tour, didn't I? Go and see Connie when I'm in Bristol, have a cup of tea. I feel like a beautiful house, I bet it's got lots of fascinating stuff. And yeah, it's interesting what came out of lockdown, isn't it? All these little insights and our need to sort of connect

and make sense and in the isolation of each individual household, just sort of reach out to other people. Powerful stuff actually. I mean, it's funny, I don't know about you, but I still find sometimes talking about lockdown, I get a sort of feeling of like, ah, I can't quite be bothered to talk about it. But at the same time, it is a shared experience we all went through. And so many, so much came out of it and so many

feelings that maybe we haven't quite explored at the moment. And then maybe I'm kind of speaking from my own personal experience, but sometimes something will remind me of it. And I'll think, oh, golly, I remember that bit where I was feeling really lost or alone or... I don't know. I suppose a slightly fragmented, like a little peninsula. Because I, you know, I was with my family. I wasn't... I was with all the people I would have chosen to be locked down with, but I missed everybody and everything and felt unnerved by so much was happening and I like Carney felt the desire to reach out.

In fact that first UK lockdown it was ten weeks long, ten weeks, ten weeks of you know no school, no work unless you're a key worker. It's a lot of time in your head, isn't it? Anyway, some beauty came out of it, like the Armama Project. Thank you to Connie for coming to see me. And I better go. They've nearly finished their pizza. It's funny, I love a birthday, but this time tomorrow, when I'm on the other side of having them all here, I will be relieved if all are still standing.

Do you think I should lock up all the boos? Probably. I mean, they're so little, 12, 13, but I don't know. Anyway, wish me luck. Let's speak in a week. I've got some nice stuff this week, actually. I'm gonna be releasing another song, and I'm gonna be telling you all about my album,

what my album's called, and honestly, I'm so excited. It's gonna be, I'm like, ready to jump in. I've got a little fire in my belly with this one in a really good way. Yeah, you will understand, you will understand on Friday. All right, wishing you lots of love and luck to us all. Speak soon. I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna lie You