Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 153: Salima Saxton

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

Salima Saxton is a writer, an actor and a coach, and she co-presents the podcast ‘Women are Mad’. She has 3 children aged 9, 12 and 15 and she recently caught my attention with her amazing Moth story about a Valentine’s Day announcement by her husband which changed her life. It’s 5 minutes of supreme story telling; you must listen! Salima and I talked about how she grew up with an alcoholic Dad and was always trying to be a ‘good girl’. Now she embraces a messy, crazy family life and says it’s vital to show up as yourself. Early in our chat we also confessed that we are both ‘secret control freak’ mums, but let’s not concentrate on that! I love Salima's idea of connecting with your 8 year old self and maybe doing some of the things that SHE used to love doing. Now, where are my rollerskates...?Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexter and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. I'm making pancakes. It's Saturday morning.

What are you up to? It's quite early. Oh, no, you know what? It's not now. It's about 8 o'clock. It was early when I got up. Well, actually, I don't know. Every weekday when the alarm goes off for me to get up, my secondary school kids, it normally wakes up my six-year-old. But then at the weekend, he'll wake up before the alarm goes off. It's a sort of like a trick. I want to have a bit of a lie-in, please. It's a sort of like a trick. I want to have a bit of a lion please. It's not possible.

Anyway I'm making his pancakes. It's a beautiful morning and I'm feeling so excited because yesterday I was finally able to talk about what my album's called and I'm calling it Perimenopop and I just have wanted to talk about it for so long because it's such a like, that's the word, sorry, that's the cupboard. It's such a like anchor, like a pin of what the whole album is about. And so not being able to talk about it up until now

I've got a bit strange in a way, or at least a bit like, I just want to tell you what I got for my birthday, kind of feeling. So I've got a new single out called Taste, which is literally one of my favorite songs I did for the album because it was one of those ones where I brought it home from the studio

and then I kept playing it and bopping around. It makes me happy. There were two lovely people, Eminike and John Shave. And yeah, so that's just come out. And that sort of provided a soundtrack to this album pre-order launch thing. And Perrymenopop, I want to thank you guys because the podcast, I think, has actually been such a massive part of why I wanted to call the album what I have.

And it's funny, you know, I've been so fortunate. There's been so many lovely things going on with my work in the last few years, you know, but I've sometimes felt a little bit like I've got two sides to me. Got the side that does the podcast, the side that needed to write. Hannah, the last record with Ed Harcourt. The slightly more introverted side of me. And then I've got my more extrovert side, you know, kitchen disco,

oh it sparkles, I'll wear it to me. And the album title I think is sort of putting together everything because it's meant I feel very much like that final hurdle of like, I don't know, being able to be exactly who I am, and I really hope I can transmit that to people who listen to it. And that would be thanks to you guys because the podcast conversations have been so enriching, and I've been so sort of, what's the word? There's been such a lovely community

of these wonderful, wise, empathetic stories I'm hearing from my guests. It feels like that connection is just like, I don't know, it's quite empowering this part of my life. I'm in my mid-40s and I've loved it. I'm loving it but it also is, I feel like I've been given a bit of a map from some of the people I've spoken to. And actually my guests today would be part of that. of the people I've spoken to. And actually, my guests today would be part of that. We're around the same age and so it's relevant to everything I'm talking about. And also, Salima is, I have to say, one of those women where first of all, we're both quite similar, we both like to talk. I think we actually recorded my podcast and her podcast on the same day, but I think we could have done another two podcasts if we needed to. Mommy!

Oh, hang on a minute, yep. I'm not letting you do it. Okay, I'm coming. Try something else. Try something else for a minute and then I'll come over. Sorry, that's my boss on the sofa. I was like, yes. Okay, so when Salima came around to my house,

it was quite funny, we'd never met, but by the end of the day, we'd spoken so much, I felt like we'd really found lots to bond over. I first became aware of her because a story that she told as part of a storytelling podcast called Moth Stories had gone viral. I've just checked. It's now up to nearly 50,000 likes. I don't know how many million views. That's through Instagram, but it's on other platforms too.

And Salim is a very good storyteller and it was really engaging and moving. And it told the story of Valentine's Day where her husband, with whom she shares three children, came into the room in their house in London and said, I can't do this anymore. And he didn't mean their family life, he meant the work pressures, the stress, they felt spread thin, they weren't really spending much time together, they were hitting all the points

outwardly of the right places to live, the right places to send your kids to school, all these things, but they weren't thriving within it. They were just ticking boxes of where they felt they should be and then, yeah, just kind of existing within it but really not having a great deal of fun or connection, I think, both to each other and to the outside world. And they loved each other and their family life too much to let that be what happened to them. And so Salima had to really steer the ship of what have... Are you making pancakes?

Yes, I'm making your pancakes, gorgeous. Sorry. Yeah, while her husband was needing this time to nurture himself, she would steer the ship of basically moving their entire life somewhere else. So kids at school, house sold, moved to the countryside, complete uplift, relocation, restart, you know,

press the big restart button. So I wanted to talk to you about that, along the way I learned about Selima's acting career, her podcast, which is called Women Are Mad, which is the one that I've also done for her, which is a brilliant conversation because it's about that kind of fire you can feel in yourself and what makes you feel like, hang on a minute, actually, yeah, I'm pretty angry about these things,

and also about how useful being angry can be. And she's also a life coach. And I bet she's a brilliant life coach because there is so much wisdom in our conversation as you will hear. So I'm finishing up the pancakes let's listen to the chat with Salima and yeah what else do you need to know about Salima Saxton if you don't know it already. As I said three children her children are I'm gonna be really specific about this because sometimes my little brain forgets things. I know they lighten up with some of mine.

Let's have a quick look. Hold on, I've got my notes here. Yes, that's it. Nine and 12. Well, I did have those ages when she was here. I've now got nine and 13. Anyway, nine, 12, 15. So the same as my middle three, save a couple of years,

well, a year or two. So I'm really rambling, not in 30 and 16. So they marry up pretty well. Anyway, enough chat. Let's move on to the big chat. And I'll see you on the other side. So I'm already laughing because we met about 40 minutes ago. Yes. And we haven't stopped talking. And we've covered a lot.

Yeah, sorry. There's so much more to cover, so don't worry. Yes. I don't know about you and your house, but in my house I sometimes picture everybody's scripts for the day and mine is like much thicker than anyone else's in my house. Listen, of course it is. I have so many lines to learn every day. Yes, exactly.

But also so many hats, so many outfits, so many... I am a bit of a secret control freak. Okay. So I kind of like PR myself as pretty relaxed mum, but I am somebody who is like in all the corners of my house, my children and my husband. Oh my god, that's me. I'm definitely bad. Is that you as well? Yes.

Because I'm quite nosy. Absolutely nosy. Curious, love a story. Yes. No, and I just want to be across everything and I like, yeah, I do, I'm definitely, I think I'd find me quite an annoying mum actually, I'm just realising that's probably... But I'm sure you're not. Look, it's about how much you want you're invested in like their daily story, right? There's so many different versions of motherhood. And I'm finally at peace with the kind of mother that I am now that they're like 15,

12 and nine. Oh, that's nice. But for many years, I doubted my kind of mothering. Do you think that's to do with the ages that they're at now? Because it does shift a bit, I think, once they get a little bit older, the style of conversation, but also the things you're helping them navigate shift, don't they? I think that, but I also think that when my kids were first born, I thought a badge of motherhood was like intricate plaques,

Liberty Smock dresses, secondhand ones. I thought a badge of motherhood was like intricate plats, Liberty smock dresses, secondhand ones, like pureed beetroot, visiting the Natural History Museum, the Science Museum and the zoo in one day. I didn't actually do that, but you know. But like I thought initially, all right, to be a good mother, I had to do certain things,

and that has hugely shifted over the years for me. I think about parenting in a really different way than how I did a decade ago. That's also because I view myself very differently to how I did a decade ago. Yeah, because that's an exhausting thing to keep up if you feel like there's this aesthetic you have to adhere to and things that have to be done and where you have to engage yourself.

That means you've, what you're talking about is quite demonstrative, isn't it? If you've pureed the beetroot, then you've boiled it first, you've drained it, you've got that, you know, you've done that and then other people who see it can also see that there's been a process. Yes. Whereas the other flip of it is allowing yourself to just be the supportive, confident parent that doesn't need to be showing outwardly. Exactly that and that takes real confidence.

I think having three in quite quick succession helped me with that because by the time I had the third, I was squeezing like cold baby pouches into his mouth whilst dealing with other, you know, two other children. Yeah. So just, I literally ran out. I don't know what it was like for you having, I mean, I imagine with five, some things have to go out of the window practically at some point. Yeah, but I think the third, I identify with that when I had Ray and he would be the one

who'd have the cold milk just in a bottle like go I remember putting him to bed. He'd be wide awake. Here's your cold milk. See you in the morning. Yeah, right Was I rocked Elodie to sleep basically all night my eldest? Yeah, oh who then didn't sleep for years, but then like my youngest obviously sleeps for 12 hours always has done I know you can't you can't predict or whatever, but I think you hit it when you said about the demonstrative thing, showing to others. But it comes back to being a good girl, right? Definitely. So I was always, that was very much part of my personality, that I am the good girl. I

was literally head girl. I was a very academic kid and school was my refuge actually. You know, home was quite complicated for me at various points. So everything, I got kind of acceptance and I suppose ego boost and affirmation from being good. Yeah, that makes sense. And I think also when you would see other people who seemingly had it together and they're doing those things, you join the dots and think the hair is plaited and they've been to those museums

and they're doing all that stuff. So therefore you join all the dots of what must be happening at home as well. Yes. You must be fabulous in all directions all the time. Yeah. And also look- Put ourselves under so much pressure.

Thank you. So much pressure. And also like not being real about who we actually are. Like I'm an appalling cook. I am a terrible, terrible cook. My children know that, my husband knows that. And for years I kind of beat myself up about that. That's not a strength.

As a mother I should be making these extraordinary nutritious meals. You know, and I don't do that very well at all, nor do I enjoy it. Whereas now I kind of speak about it a lot. My kids have all become great cooks. My youngest wants to become a chef. My husband works in food. You know, he's really good with food. And I don't feel it's a badge. I don't

feel I have to bring homemade cakes to like the PTA cake sale anymore. And I'm very clear about talking about these things all the time, because motherhood for me now is really about like showing all aspects of myself where I can to my own kids, particularly my elder girls. Like, I want them to understand that if you want to live a wild, big life, and when I say big, I mean it can be adventuring, I don't know, living in the Himalayas or living in Croydon and being a painter or whatever big means to you.

I don't mean you have to go and work on Wall Street. or living in Croydon and being a painter or whatever big means to you. I don't mean you have to like go and work on Wall Street. But if you want that kind of messy, big, crazy, authentic life, nothing can be done perfectly. You're gonna have to like half ass it. Is that what it is? Yeah, and also be forgiving of yourself and be not worrying about what other people are thinking, looking from the outside in.

That is, I mean, when you say that, that is the key, right? How are you about that? Well, I know that when I meet people who live that way, I really love it and I like being around those people. So firstly, I think it's very attractive when people can just be their whole selves and not feel they have to explain it. It's really refreshing. That's why I married my husband really. Yeah it's funny you say that actually because when I first met Richard he had these shoes that he had for tour and I really didn't like them and we were sort of you know starting to date and I'd be they were just these ugly trainers but he just would still wear them and I remember being really

impressed that he still was cool to wear these shoes. I was saying nice things to him as well. Just to give some context. But I thought, God, that's so cool of you because if you said to me, oh, I'm not sure about that coat, I would never wear it again. I'd be like, I thought I liked it but you don't like it so therefore... And I just, that always really stayed with me that he was just like, okay well I do so that's fine. I thought that was very attractive quality.

It was grounding isn't it? Yeah, it is and there's not enough people who get to that place quickly I think. It's hard. It's really hard and you know you say your kids, your kids are 9, 12 and 15. Yeah. And I think that is an age where you're very aware of all these external influences coming in so you know when they're at primary school home is still the place where they see themselves reflected the most. Yes. I know how I am because of my bedroom and the fun I have

with my siblings if you have them or how my parents talk to me or friends I play with, whoever is around you at home. But when you get to secondary it flips and it becomes about wanting to fit in with your peers. So I do try and talk to them a little bit about how to feel comfortable being your own person when you're also trying to fit in. I think that is one of the mainstays of motherhood and I applaud you for that, or parenting, fatherhood and motherhood.

And that's where I left the intricate plats behind because I want to lead by example as much as I can. So of course I'm going to be really embarrassing. Of course I'm going to say things that they roll their eyes at at this point and as they should, as they start forming who they are. But what I'm most proud about my kids is that they know who they are. Yes. Like that's, I feel, that's where I've got the confidence I think in these last few years. You know, they are a number of things. They are lively, naughty, contradictory, can be tricky,

brilliant characters, but they are all very clear on who they are and I think that's where I have like sat back a little bit in my chair and gone yeah okay so it's all right that I don't make, I don't know, a six layered lasagna every night, any night. And I'm late and I forgot to send them in with this or whatever. Those are not my qualities. That's something that I struggle with, organization sometimes and giving them the right change or t-shirt or whatever. But I know I am good at having the conversations about how they're feeling. And I think in our house, feelings aren't off limit. You

can be big with your feelings. And that's something that I really feel passionately about. No feeling is wrong. So just say it. We had a conversation recently at home about envy. One of my kids was feeling envious of somebody at school. And it took quite a while to get that out of her because she felt like it was kind of wrong that she was. But I was saying, great that you've labeled it.

Great that you've gone, aha, OK, I want to do that too. And I was saying, rather than thinking of it as some kind of disastrous feeling, it's detective work. You're like, ah, well, maybe I would like to do that one day as well. How could I get there? That's how I try and think of Envy as a grown woman, actually. Yeah. It's so good to navigate that emotion early on as well, because it's going to come

up again. It has to come up all the time. And also the world they're growing up in with social media and what's thrown at them in the way that it wasn't thrown at us, you know, in those early years. Those curated feeds that they see, like understanding that, yeah, you might feel a tug. Well, maybe that means you want to go and live in Paris. Or maybe that means that one day you want to work in this. Like, try and see it like that. Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's really put, particularly if you end up working in, well, actually probably most fields where you'll get comparison and you're sort of looking left and right and always, well, should I be doing that? And I've been overlooked for this opportunity, but

they got it. It's so important to be able to navigate it because if you don't get handled on that young and actually I don't think anyone really had those conversations with me in that way. So it's really so good to have that open chat. And rejection, right? Yes. Look, think of your stellar career, but I'm sure you've been rejected many, many times. Oh, God, yeah. Many times.

Right? And will be again. And will be again. Despite your massive achievements. And that's what I want them to learn, that success is like made up of a thousand failures. Yes. That you are, every failure you have is again detective work or part of your the process of getting towards it

particularly in creative fields right and also how subjective. Some people will love to dance to your music, other people will respect your music but tend to dance to like 90s R&B but like but you but you know, it and that's not a personal affront in any way, it's just that we all connect and vibe with different things. Definitely and also the person you're envious of, again you're joining dots of what they, what the rest of their life might look like, but they might be struggling with other things or... And they always are, right? Yes. So sometimes if I see someone doing really well and I feel that little... Normally I'm pretty chill, but every once in a while you get that flash of like...

Of course. And then I always think, OK, but in the whole planet, there's only one person that's being that person doing well and everybody else is the spectator to that. So that always mellows me out a little bit. Like, look, they get to do that thing, but everybody else is not that... There's only one person that's that person.

Everybody else has to just look on. Maybe they're feeling the same. And that makes me always feel a bit more... Yeah, that's a beautiful way to look at it. And also to think about our own timelines. You know, that timelines for all of us are so individual. Yeah, definitely. So things happen... You know, we're kind all of us are so individual. Yeah, definitely. So things happen, you know, we're kind of taught, aren't we, that you know, you will,

the thing will happen in your 20s and then you will lead this linear path and then you'll retire or whatever and die. But actually, sorry I say really starkly, but like, but actually, well, like with your career, yeah, you've had these amazing moments. Very wibbly-wobbly. And then recently unexpected, if you don't mind me saying, amazing, extraordinary. Mad adventure. Not expected at all. Which you might not have expected, I'm assuming.

No, definitely not. And so you're a great example of that in that like, every decade, every, or even there's that thing, isn't there, that every seven years, I always say this is probably biologically incorrect, but that every seven years, every cell in our body is new or something like that. But I think that's a really, let's just call it poetry, maybe not biology, but like a poetic way to remember

about our lives that like, we'll meet in seven years, we'll be completely different people in seven years having a conversation. And then again in seven years, let's do it. But you know, like what, where? We'll do seven up, but starting from now. Exactly. In our little knitting, in our little wheelchairs in our 90s. I'd like to be able to knit. Yes, I would. When you talk about the good girl that you were trying to live up to or that made you

feel like that's the only role you were destined to play, how much is Struggling the Off been part of your conversations around, because you have a podcast called Women Are Mad, which I think is such an, immediately it's so intriguing to think about that and any frustrations and anger that women push down, little incremental things. I mean, it's a conversation I want to have with so many people because I think, yes, there's so many things you just quash over the years, over the decades, and then it's all just there, like, mmm.

So how good has it been to have those conversations, and how much has it helped you with rejigging things? It's been life-changing. I mean, I hate to use words like that because it sounds quite grand, but it has been life-changing. So actually, I'm going to say it has. Yeah, it has been life-changing. So actually I'm going to say it has, yeah, it has. When Jenny and I started doing this pod, so it was like about 18 months ago,

I said, Jenny, who's one of my best friends from university, psychotherapist, written this book called Women Are Angry, but changing your fury into a kind of positive propulsions, rather than stomping around and. Because anger can be a force for real good. Exactly, which is what Jenny really believes. Yeah, so do I. So I said to Jenny, yeah cool, we can do that, but the only issue is I don't get angry. And Jenny was like, oh god, here we go. Because I would

always say, yeah but I cry. I cry and I get depressed. I don't get angry, do I Jenny? And whereas her view is that, yeah, you're feeling it, you just don't feel it's appropriate enough to say it. And what I have learned over these last couple of years is that I do feel fury, like every single human being does on this planet. I just didn't always feel safe enough to express it. And I often shied away from a confrontation and tried to make it all nice. Yes. Confrontation can be really difficult, especially if you're programmed from when you're little

to not want those big dramatic moments. Yeah. And also, look, I grew up with an alcoholic dad, and I up in a family where I was hyper-vigilant, I was the eldest kid and I was very aware of keeping everything nice and I was very aware of changes in tone, in energy, in the room. So I was always on the lookout for a change or a shift and worried about, worried, yeah, I was a worried kid, you know, I really was. I had a mom who was really doing her best

in tricky circumstances with a complicated father. And it all looked, coming back to what we were saying about curated fields, oh fields, feeds, it all looked very nice from the outside. We lived in a beautiful thatched house in a beautiful village and I ticked all the boxes at school and I had piano lessons and flute lessons and went to Girl Guides. But my home life was not always as easy and as sweet as it appeared. Yeah, I think as well it's interesting because it sounds like for a while you were trying

to marry the familiarity of that, you know, the things that looked right, along with putting to right what you felt was missing. So you were trying to do all of it. Let's have the messy emotional conversations and no-holds-barreds, but let's also make sure that you're keeping up with all the other stuff as well, which is actually so much to take on. Well, that is really observant of you because I wondered why for a long time I felt very exhausted. And my husband always joked that, like, I basically would go out,

you know, we got married when I was in my early 20s, but I'd go out, come back and get into bed. You know, I was always like, I still am actually someone who's like, oh, getting into bed. That's still my favorite place. And I know it is for lots of us, but I do think it is quite symbolic for me that like, bed, home is where I prosper most.

You know, like loads of pillows, heated blanket, books, laptop, you know, like I feel like I can run my world from my bed. Sounds lovely. Yeah, I mean that- Does someone bring you hot drinks and things? I wish, I wish. I'm going to train everyone up a little bit better. That's the best thing you need. But home and safety are two massive themes in my life. And looking back on how I was created and my childhood,

it makes sense to me. Of course I was going to marry a Carl in my early 20s. Of course I was going to have three, I wanted more children. Of course I was going to create home as being like I had to come home you know I I felt that my entire life that I was looking to come home I feel a bit emotional saying this. Well it's a big word isn't it home? Home yeah I mean like it kind of it gives For some people, it's very straightforward, home. And it hasn't always been for me, actually.

And I felt in recent years that I've gone through an undoing, a very conscious undoing of coming back to myself. And it's been really painful. It's been very complicated these last few years. But I feel like I'm coming back to me that the Salima who wrote, I do feel emotional talking about this, but I feel like the eight-year-old who wrote the stories in her little diary, I feel like the eight-year-old who wrote the stories in her little diary, I feel like the ten-year-old who like lay in the hammock reading all her Laura Ingalls Wilder books, I feel like the kind of teenage self who like listened to like, sorry Sophie you've got much better taste

in music than me but like my Mariah Carey and my Whitney Houston. What? Mariah and Whitney? they're out there, come on. Okay good, good. I really see that kid again and I feel her very strongly in me in my 40s again and I lost her, I lost her for years. Well I think that's really relatable but I also feel... I do because I think life can create such a swirl around it but particularly in a time where you're having these big life events and they're they bring a lot of stuff to the fore but you're so busy in the moment with the young kids and the when you having another one and the dust that goes along with it and setting up a home and you know relationship and laying those foundations that I don't know if you necessarily get much time to step outside of yourself for how you're feeling about a lot of

it you're just kind of in the doing. Yeah exactly you're in the doing, you're in the doing all the time. And both Carl and I were rocketing away from our upbringings. And both of us definitely confused what success was for many years. And we've definitely, you know, I spoke about this on this Moth story, which I performed, you know, about a year ago now. And I spoke quite openly about what happened with Carl and the shifts in his business and how he's come back to himself. But it's interesting because a lot

of people now think that Carl and I want to kind of walk the fields, feed the chickens, and live a very simple life. But the secret is, I don't really particularly like the countryside. I'm from the countryside. I am appreciative that we live there at the moment, but my heart is in concrete and the urban, as is Carl. This is right for us right now, it won't be right forever. And we're both very ambitious.

We both want to create and do big things. And that's what I've kind of got to grips with in this undoing, I'm writing about it at the moment in a memoir actually called The Year of Undoing, saying that change can be made in front of the telly, you know, that change doesn't have to be moving to a beach in Bali or, you know, selling all your possessions and wonderful if it is, that's great, but change can be literally going, I love to watch The Real Housewives, I want to write poetry. These are my people. This

is my home. And this is what works for me. And yes, there are contradictions. Yes, it doesn't quite make sense. Yes, I should appreciate... Like I saw a herd of deer recently. It was very beautiful. There were deer. There was one white deer, there were muddy fields, it was like a sunny day. And I, in that moment, I thought to myself, oh, this is like a movie. This is the moment when I go, oh, we've done the undoing. I feel at peace. I've come home. No, it wasn't for me. It was me going, oh yes, that is a beautiful spectacle. I don't feel anything particularly about that. I can appreciate the natural elements of it

and these animals, but I'm more moved by skyscrapers. And that's okay. It doesn't mean that I'm, you know, a kind of uncomplicated coarse creature that doesn't love a rainbow. It means that I've still got business to do in other places, perhaps, and this chapter of my life is not necessarily about the deer. For me, the countryside is currently linked to my estranged father's death, and it's a complicated place for me. So where I am right now is good,

and it's good for my family, but this is not forever. Well, it sounds like such a significant thing, distinction to make, because I think that in, you know, when people read about it in your book and hearing it now, it will make people feel so much more, I think we've got to allow everybody, give ourselves permission to flip the script but not feel like you're committing to a whole new, and now that's where I'm at forever. Because actually that can be, that carries a lot.

And that's almost, if you're feeling overwhelmed, the idea of shifting everything and that being at forever is just equally overwhelming. So it feels very... Intimidating, right? Yes, and it feels very sort of quite modern and sensitive of you and Carl to be able to say, we need to do this for now and

the rest will deal with itself. Yes. But we're going to do this undoing as you say because that is the only way to think clearly for a bit and then you can reintroduce the bits that matter when you're ready to do that. And maybe that will change again. Maybe I will fall in love with muddy fields and maybe I will live in a muddy field for the rest of my life.

Yeah, and who cares? Probably when you were leaving London people are like, oh that's it then is it? Back in, oh, you won't get back in here but you know it's going to be great. And you think, such an unhelpful way to think. I just need to do this for now. The rest will take care of itself but you just could recognise you needed something other. Other. And also look, the only definite thing for all of us, for every single human, is that nothing is forever and everything will change.

That is definite for all of us, no matter how static we think our lives are. So the sooner we get to grips with that, that change is happening or you know the flowers are dying on my dining room table you know and they're beautiful flowers but they're not meant to be here forevermore and that's why look I don't really want to sound totally morbid but death is really entwined in how I live. No I don't think that is more, but I think about death quite a lot. Do you? Yeah, and I did when I was a kid.

Did you? Yeah, a lot a lot. And in what sense? Like with animals or with other humans? Humans, but also obviously, you know, when you have that moment where you have to deal with the enormity of the fact that your life is going to end, and it's almost like a shift in your childhood, or like you can't go back to the previous kind of year where it's like, I'm above the surface for this and then I go below and I have no idea what happens and where I was sitting there in my bed,

it looked like nothing afterwards. I was like, okay, this is it. My mom is a humanist and actually I really like that approach of thinking about. Well, my mom's a Quaker. Oh, okay. I think there are overlaps. Yes.

Yeah. So, from what I understand, it makes you think about leaving everything a little better than you found it, trying to live harmoniously with who you happen to be sharing the planet with for this time. And just a sort of acceptance of passing the baton on at the end of it, which I like that because I think if you get very fixated about death, it can... Firstly, I think it's a very difficult way to embrace the here and now. But secondly, there's a big bit of ego in that.

Yeah. And who's to say you deserve to live longer than everybody else? Absolutely. And I think that's quite a nice way to stop getting into your head about it too much. Like I'm very, I've already lived so much longer than some people's experience and so much happier than some people's experience. So be grateful for that, be grateful for the here and now and for every, every day that comes my way that contains more of it. Wonderful, but you have to be at peace with your role in everything.

But I love how you're saying that, because that to me reminds us that we are all just these tiny little bits of stardust. Yeah. And that's all we are. Yes. We are nothing more than that. No.

So who are we to take up any more space than we are allocated, actually? Exactly. If we are all just these bits of interlinked stardust in this universe that we can't even comprehend. Our tiny little human brains can't even comprehend. Now, whatever your religious beliefs are, we cannot possibly understand what we are part of.

Yeah. And maybe there's a beauty in that too. Yes, I was going to say the same thing. We just don't know. Well, coming back to where you and I talked about the needing to control sometimes, I think for me, as I get older, that's the undoing, the unlearning of control a little bit.

I've always been like an A plus catastrophist, the undoing, the unlearning of control a little bit. I've always been like an A plus catastrophist and I am pleased to say that I'm becoming worse and worse at catastrophizing. I'm like that, if someone doesn't text me back or reply to me quickly, I think they've died. Oh wow. I was telling my 16 year old, he thought it was absolutely hilarious.

Okay so where, and have you always been like that? When someone's late and they've probably had an accident. Yes so I've already gone to hospital, I've already worked out the route to hospital to where I will go and visit Sophie because she would have had an accident on the way here and I'll have to tell her husband probably but I don't have his number. But I met the producer so maybe I could get the number like that. As I'm driving along with the 90s R&B, I'm often having undoings like that. Yeah, me too. Well, if you're the A-plus catastrophist, so you get the high grades and you catastrophize

to that level. I like the coasting, handing my homework late, so I'm maybe like the B minus. Okay, fine. So I haven't quite followed it through in such practical steps. Okay, fine, good. But I'm there with the first thoughts of, like one of my kids has a tutor

and he was supposed to do a Saturday, I never heard from him, and I need to message him as well. Maybe he thinks I'm dead, but I'm like, he's probably been in an accident or maybe he's not alive anymore and that's why that's the message. Yeah, so that's where I go as well. What's wrong with that?

Okay, so in the village, there's, what's that machine called, you know, someone has a heart attack? A defibrillator. So I have, sorry, Cole, you're going to hear this now. I have gone to the village hall, checked that I know how it works and everything, so that if anybody around me needs it, I know what

to do. That's great. Yeah, but we're in our 40s. It's very unlikely that's... Maybe it's an elderly gentleman, it's a woman. Maybe, but maybe it's their time to go anyway. And can you imagine, like, I'm the person that makes them live on for the next 10 years. Because that bloody woman. It's something happened, you'd be like, I've had this, don't worry.

I've played this out. I've been prepping this all my life. You know, and also, look, I'm trying not to prep for Doomsday anymore. Like, do you remember that, when we were kids, the Raymond Briggs cartoon, When the Wind Blows? Yeah, oh yeah, terrifying. Oh my god. I mean, I still, I haven't watched it for probably 30 years. It still stays in my head. Was it like a nuclear?

Yes. And then they survive. I said, Carl always says to me, but you wouldn't want to be in When the Wind Blows. You'd want to like, you don't want to prep to that extent. You want to let go. So I'm in a real like mind the gap moment in my life where like, you know, here's the catastrophist and I'm excellent at it and I've got a plan for everything, but here's also the part of me that thinks about us all being pieces of stardust. And there's definitely like a dichotomy in the moment. And that's linked a lot to my father's death 18 months ago. That's recent, I'm sorry. That does bring a lot of things to the fore. And I know you said before that your relationship is complicated. Yes.

But it's always significant to lose a parental figure. And also when you've got emotions to do with them that are complex. Yes. Where do you put that? And how do you not just have residual anger for all the things that weren't sorted? I think it's really important. Maybe the catastrophizing help sometimes in... trying to be at peace with like, okay, if someone dies like now, where's our relationship at? Have we left it on good terms? Was there something I needed to say?

Am I okay with the conversations I didn't have? So that has been one... My father's death, this is going to sound odd, but I think has been the making of me because my father died and we'd been estranged for nine years and I had chosen to estranged myself from him. And I found out he died by my mom calling me, they'd been divorced for many years. And it was really odd, she called me

and I was having dinner with my husband and my youngest child, and she told me, and I went, okay, thank you very much, mommy, bye. And then I kind of sat down to eat my sausages and mash, and then I started crying, and Carl and my youngest son were like, you don't have to eat the sausages and mash, just come and sit down. you don't have to eat the sausages and mash, just come and sit down and there was a real, oh there was a real reaching into myself for that kid of eight who

held everybody together for so much of my childhood in so many ways. You know, I have to pause for a second because these last 18 months, like it's funny, I can't meet your eye at the moment. I'll look at the moment. These last 18 months, for the first few months, I felt that everything was desperately unsafe. My father asked that I didn't attend his funeral and he didn't leave me anything in his will, so he was furious with me when he died. So it was a very untidy ending to his life. And many people have said to me, you know, do you wish you could have said, I love you, I forgive you,

I'm sorry, something. No, I don't wish that now. I see an absolute technical color. He did what he could as a man, as a father, and he couldn't do anymore, and that was his story. And it wasn't enough for me as a child or as a young adult. He didn't walk me down the aisle on purpose. or as a young adult. He didn't walk me down the aisle on purpose and I now forgive him but in a very quiet way. I don't need to have that conversation with him and I can say that I love him, Jim Saxton, James Saxton, you know, for many aspects. I remember being carried on his shoulders in the woods, I remember painting with him, I

remember listening to Stan Getz, I remember dancing to Louis Armstrong, I remember his terrible Lancashire hotpots and I can feel for him and love him but I have come into myself as Salima since he died and I can't quite explain why still. I feel braver. And you feel like that was a definite distinction between the time when you chose to be estranged to when you knew he actually wasn't physically here. I'm only asking because nine years is a long time to have not spoken to him anyway. Yes. Which sounds like a very clear decision you made for your own self-preservation.

Yes, it was. Yeah, it was very considered. I wrote him a letter. I'd had a lot of therapy. And look, it's not something that I take lightly nor suggest to people in any way. I really appreciate you talking about it though because I know quite a few people that have a parent they did this with and it's been really significant for them and I think it's really healthy to talk about it.

So do I. Or at least for people to hear that it's not, they shouldn't be ashamed, it shouldn't be taboo. Right. Because look, lots of well-meaning people have said to me over the years, we know when he was alive, oh, you know, but maybe you could just see him once a year, maybe you could just see him at Christmas, you know, but I mean But I don't believe that Christmas is about those moments at all. I don't believe significant anniversaries, birthdays, Christmases should be about any

of that. No, and also sometimes you're like, why should I give... Why? So that it looks better, so that it sounds better? Yeah, so it's more palatable for you. So we've got the bare minimum of the appropriate level of contact with someone that doesn't make us feel good, that hasn't provided for us what we needed from them. I don't know.

I don't know if I agree. You need to do that so that, as you say, so that people kind of relax a little bit. I think it's just really hard if people haven't had that relationship. It's difficult to explain. It is difficult to explain. It is difficult to explain. But the older I get, the more I understand about surrounding yourself with people who make you feel good and about the necessity to keep evolving.

And I feel like the more you can help yourself with shedding these things, we are still growing, there's still a lot of life left to live and how much more will you enjoy the next what comes ahead if you've dealt with it. And I feel like particularly in your 40s it gets to a bit of a crossroads and... With friendships too right? Definitely. That's been huge for me in my 40s. Definitely. And if you don't, I can sort of see, if you don't deal with these things and reach, make decisions that work for you in quite a selfish way, but maybe it has a necessity to it, you can end up being really, you can build some very dysfunctional things for yourself that

will not make you that much fun to hang out with. You can be a bit bitter, a bit cantankerous, a bit angry, a bit closed, a bit unempathetic. And giving yourself space to just drop a lot of the peripheral bollocks that's held you down will just help you to be more connected and help your children grow and keep your friendships in the moment. All of it. All of it. And also to understand that your foibles, your kind of like, not yours Sophie, my foibles, my craziness, my neuroses are what make my friends love me. Although, and my family love me. I don't have to turn up in this polished, perfect response kind of way that anyone that loves me and is part of my life will say,

oh, Selima, you always do that. Don't worry about it. Or come on, you're doing what you always do. And what I've really learned in these last few years is that not everyone can like me. It's just not possible. That's hard to let go of, isn't it? If you're a person who likes being liked. Right. Because I, that I would say was one of my main kind of drivers was I'm a person that's very likeable. Everyone likes me. That was always kind of like part of my persona and I've had to put that down. I've had to really strongly put that down.

Where are you with that being liked? It's work in progress, I'd say. But it was my goal for my 40s was to stop worrying about that so much. And I like that. Yeah, like to stop being people pleased. And I definitely have got a bit better at having a little bit more boundaries and not saying yes to things or doing things because I think other people want me to, but actually

because I want to do it. Yeah, that's hard. I've sort of simplified things a little bit. It's been overall, it's quite gentle. My line of work is quite, I still, I love being patted on the head and being told I've done well with things. So it's quite, you know, same. But so do I. I do want to go away.

I do want to talk to you about the things you spoke about with the moth stories. Yes. Because I feel there's a lot, I've watched it a few times. So for people that haven't seen it, you speak for, it's about five minutes, isn't it? Yeah. And basically, Moth Stories is a bit like Ted Talks, but it's people sharing their stories. And something you share that can be about any sort of thing, but your one was all about when your husband, Carl, came to you on Valentine's Day and said, essentially,

I can't do what I'm doing anymore. It reached breaking points. Yes. I suppose, I never really know what a nervous breakdown looks like, but is that a nervous breakdown or something? Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Because I shy away from using that term. It feels like an old-fashioned term, maybe got a different word for it now. Asylums and things like that. But a breaking point of sorts.

He was at a breaking point. Yeah. So how long ago was this? This was over three years ago now. Okay. And so you together made quite a radical decision to change everything. Leave your home, leave where the kids are at school, move your lives. This was a sort of survival, we must survive through this bit together. And it's testament

to your relationship that it's so together, you clearly adore each other. And that is the kernel from which all else floods out, which is really magical. But also when I listen to your story on Moth Stories, I flip between being the Carl and being you in it actually. Because sometimes I think I can really understand that feeling of just like being stretched, stretched, stretched, stretched, stretched and feeling like I'm gasping for breath. And well done to him for even coming to you in that moment. Right. Just calling it, just saying it.

Yeah, absolutely. And obviously as well, when you're telling the story, and now three years in, you are sitting on the other side where you are watching the deer and still actually being able to write about it and assimilate all that's come with the last few years of your life. But in that moment, can you talk me through a little bit about what it was like to up sticks and how you shared it with your kids and did that? Because it's dramatic in all directions when you're moving things. But did you maybe you realize that everybody needed something other? That is the key to it all.

I think that this would be a very different story if all five of us had been merrily skipping along. I said to Carl recently that sure, he came home and said that on Valentine's Day, and it sounds like to other people quite a dramatic moment, but that story was always going to unfold. I'm very clear on that now, as is he. It might have happened in a slower time frame, it might have happened in a different way, but that story was always coming for us. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you know, and... No, they can't, you can't keep it, that's like a pot that's just like bubbling up. Yes, similarly. And also that's why I say about the biggest change happening in front of the

telly sometimes, because there are different versions of that story. It doesn't have to be you move from a city to the countryside, you change where you're living or whatever. You know, those things can happen and no one else will ever see it. But radical shifts have happened, which is why I don't always believe what you see. But yeah, you asked me about how it was at that time. That night when I went to sleep and when he came home and said, you know, I just can't do it like this anymore. And this was like financial as well. We were like, we were really stretched. He founded this big business, Wholegood.

It's a organic and biodynamic wholesaler. You know, he built it up from scratch by himself, like literally working in a disused bakery out of his car and he built it to a massive business today. So he's done extraordinarily well. And I want to say that out loud here because I also want people to hear that being in business, being an entrepreneur,

it can look so glossy to the outside, but it is fricking hard for all of them. For all of Carl's friends who I've seen build varying businesses of different, very different levels. Unless you're held up by massive, massive multi-generational wealth and you're just playing, unless you're those people, it's frightening, it's terrifying. No, it's proper graft. It's proper graft, exactly. And absolute stress as well because you're trying to maintain something and then sometimes

you're like, this is actually unsustainable as we are right now. You can see the end, there's a few months, but if that order doesn't come in, then... Yeah, then what? And then as I say in my talk, COVID, Brexit, just pushing, pushing, pushing. And that's one of the reasons that I've always, why obviously I love Carl with all my heart, but one of my things about Carl I've always really respected is just like his graft, his work ethic.

He's not scared of working. But what I realized at that moment was that I had begun to take it all very for granted. That's just Carl, he just works all the time. And I spent a long time thinking, fuck, why did I not go, no, stop working so much. We don't need all of this. Or maybe we will create all of this,

but let's just see. don't need all of this or maybe we will create all of this but like let's just see. I have to play, I have to acknowledge my part in that that we both were like pushing, pushing together as well at points. Yeah and it's quite incremental isn't it? It's not like you jump straight in it's just you're the frog in the water aren't you? Exactly that. It just gets more and more stressful and stretched that little bit thinner. Yeah. So, yeah, we just didn't notice them having these young children. So I was the one who said, let's literally move to my mum's house back home and let's

put the kids in a school in the countryside, a state school as well, and let's just work out what we're doing. I think we need to live differently, I just knew it. So I was the one who made that happen very quickly, even though Carl then kind of like a few weeks later was saying, you know, we don't need to change our, he said very quickly, we don't need to change our lives so radically.

I think- So you think he was quite surprised by your kind of- Yeah, he was. Roll your sleeves up like, right. Yeah, because I hadn Roll your sleeves up like... Yeah, because I hadn't really shown that to him before, you know, because I'd been like so entrenched in like bringing up kids, you know, I've been an actor for years, I, you know, I was writing, I was kind of living a very gentle life really, you know, that

Carl had really given me and I have to kind of say that as well, that Carl was always very generous in that he was like, you go and do what you love, you go and do whatever you want to do, I've got this, I've got this. It was the first time where I said, no, you're carrying everything, so we've got to shift this in some way. So it was difficult at first first when all the action finished.

In all the doing we were fine. The kids were okay about moving actually school and... So it was 6, 9 and 12 I'm thinking. Yeah, yeah and actually... The timing is in a way like... Was not too bad. Was not too bad and you know they were all, you know, they were all right, you know, and I, you know, we did it quite gently with them and showed them the new schools and so it was me who, when we got through all of that by April, May, I kind of looked around and went, what the hell? Because I had come home, unbeknownst to me.

I boomeranged back to where I grew up and I had spent a lot of energy getting away from where I grew up. So although everybody was safe and feeling okay and Cole came back to himself very quickly actually. I then really struggled for a few months because I was home and home was not straightforward for me. And I guess you were talking before about this undoing process that predated the move, is that right? Yeah, it predated the move in terms of friendships, female friendships, in terms of who I had, who I was kind of hanging out with, I suppose.

Look, it's difficult, isn't it, when you have kids and you're at the school gates a lot? Yeah. You just lose... I lost track of who I really was for a while. So I'm not saying this is anyone's fault. I just forged some friendships that were probably not right for them and not right for me at various points.

Probably because I wasn't showing up as exactly who I really am. I was just saying yes and being a bit of a lady in waiting and keeping everything nice. And I should have always shown other aspects of myself, like the aspect of me that disagrees, that likes debate, that can be quite cantankerous. I didn't always show that in female friendships in my 30s, whereas I am now surrounded by women very purposefully who I can disagree with, who love me regardless and will call me out if I'm being a bit of a twit. Sounds so good though, because I think especially when life is busy, when you actually have time to bed in with those relationships and keep them totally, so you're not just always catching up.

You're not just like, oh, this is what the last six months is, and have I seen you since this and... Because that's great, you need that, but the bit where you actually get below that surface and actually get to have conversations and how do you feel about this and what's going on with that? Like the real stuff that fuels you and feels like... Well, like the nitty gritty and like the eight-year-old S Sleema, the stuff that fuels her as well. And also about the wider world. Let's debate without the risk of sounding like a head girl

again. Let's go, no, I totally disagree with you. Let me tell you why. That's really interesting to me. And I lost that aspect of myself when my kids were young. And I forgot some of the friends that I had who were able to do that with me. Like I like cerebral bookish stuff too. I love trashy telly. I love sweets. I love sweets. That makes me sound so wholesome and blue peeto doesn't it?

But like I love sweets. But like you know I love a high-low kind of life, but I lost a lot of the high for a while there. And I like a disagreement with love. It feels like your brain's on fire as well. Yeah, that's how you create, right? Yes, you need to kind of like wake bits of your brain up and challenge things and keep curious about the world.

But also, like we were talking about before, like anger can be really useful. So if you've got things that frustrate you or you don't like, you actually like channel it into something. Yes. Hand the debates. I think it's exciting. And make it gnarly. And like, how do you write songs?

How do you write a book? How do you do, how do you paint a picture? How do you just turn up and hang out with your kids? Unless you're going, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on, let's think of it this way, or... I don't agree necessarily. And with your working life, what were you doing when you had your first baby? Were you still acting that time? Yes, yes, I was. So I was acting a bit, but not loads. Lots of voiceovers, I've always

done a lot of voiceovers. And then I started writing a novel. So that was the other thing in this great undoing is that I have realised how much I love to work. I realized that I like lots of strands. So I'm writing this memoir, This Year of Undoing. I've got this novel that's going out to publishers later in the year. I work as a coach now as well. I still act, I do voiceovers. But what I really realized is that it's all the same thing. It's all storytelling. Someone said to me the other day, what the hell? You do always like things, Lima. And I was like, yeah, that it's all the same thing. It's all storytelling. Someone said to me the other day, what the hell? You do always like things, Lima. And I was like, yeah, but it's all the same thing.

I'm not excelling any of them particularly, but they all feed the same storytelling aspect of myself. Yeah, they all complement each other and overlap. Yeah, it's all the same stuff. It's just different forms. Also, I think for life coaches and anyone that's in a role of guidance for people, having lived it is so vital. Yeah.

You have to talk about your own experience of shift and change and recognizing yourself and listening to things that are going on in you. How do you think, if people come to you, what's the main thing that people seem to find tricky? Oh, that's a great question. So I work a lot with clients who are like midlife women who are either career shifts or early motherhood. That just tends to be the clients that I seem to attract a lot. And there are so many similar themes, many of the themes that we've been talking about.

Yeah, I can imagine. So I learn a lot from my clients. I always say that. Just having those overlaps, understanding that so many of us have the game face that worry about imposter syndrome, worry about what this next chapter can be. Can I be this if I have never been that? Is there still time? Am I allowed to take up more space? Does my voice still count?

That's a really big theme. Does anybody wanna hear me? Like, you know, whether it's somebody in a corporate job, whether it's a self-employed person, whether it's a full-time mum, does anybody want to hear me is such a theme. Yeah, wow. I mean, it's such a simple thing, but I think it's funny you've spoken a lot about, you know, eight-year-old you. And I suppose that so many of us have got these aspects of ourselves that are crystallized so young, and then you just carry on with

that for absolutely ages. So it's so important to, yeah, that your voice at the table be able to value what you have to contribute enough to also want to make sure you're heard. It's so fucked up. And also like, you know, people talk so much about what's the trick to confidence? What's the trick to, you know, owning the room or whatever? But I just say like, you've got to take it way, way, way back, haven't you? Like connecting with that eight-year-old kid who like wrote in her diary, in her bunk bed with all her strawberry shortcake stickers and her Brambly Hedge duvet cover,

and wrote, I remember my first story that I wrote was called The Book of Lies, and what is true and what's not true, and like this little girl who goes to visit the land of lies and how she has to find her way back. You know, like that's kind of a story of my life in many ways, in that, like, now, we overuse the word authentic. I think it's kind of lost some of its meaning.

But, you know, that little girl who wrote about the land of lies, God, I see that so clearly now, because I know more than anything, it is vital to show up as yourself. It is so, so vital. That is the only place that magic is going to happen. Magic can't happen. And like, life is magical, by the way. I really think that. Yeah, me too. Because we are stardust, right? But the magic can't happen unless you show up as yourself. It just can't. If you try and, like, I think about, like, how you show up in your music and like the way you beautifully dress and like your stage presence. Can we talk about

this? Is this allowed? Are you squirming? No, it's okay. I'm interested but I have other things I want to ask you as well. Okay fine. Okay, but just very quickly, it is utterly, utterly you and I think that's part of the magic of you. I don't want to say that. It's utterly you. But it's funny, well I suppose the way that ties in as well is that the older I've got the more I felt felt like the things I go on stage and now I wouldn't have worn when I was younger, which is really funny to me.

Oh, right. Because it's almost like I kind of got older and I just stopped worrying about things a lot, which has been an unexpected joy of getting older, which I wasn't expecting. Well, I think it is the absolute best form of self-care. Like I always say, take a grenade to self-care and like bubble baths and gratitude journals and all those kinds of things. Like the biggest self-care is like tuning in

to like who you are and work. That is really, really taking care of yourself. That's so lovely. And I'm picturing as well, like your kids being able to grow up in an environment where that is encouraged and celebrated as well. Because I feel, we're probably quite similar like this, like I feel like that bit of your life when you're a child should be this thing where you feel safe and within your four walls. I feel like there should be a very safe space with just all of it, all the feels, all the good, bad and ugly.

And then when you get into the world, you've got all these people telling you to tone things down and don't talk like that and shush and don't do this and keep your edges in. Too much, too much. Yes, diminish, diminish. Amplify certain aspects and turn down the volume of others. So when you're a kid, being allowed to just be

all those things with someone sort of scooping you up at the end of the day and you're feeling safe in your bed and all that is so vital. And I can hear from what you've said that you know you had a lot of serious stuff that you were dealing with when you were small and it's always a very awkward juxtaposition to what childhood should be about. And it was awkward for me because I have to acknowledge that my mum really tried her hardest. My mum was the one who on my wedding day, when I said I was nervous, she was like, this is nothing, you went to Cambridge. I joke about it, but my mum was determined that, you know, I was at Little Village Primary School, Little State School, and my mum was determined that I do everything. For her, Cambridge was part of that. I'm not saying it has to be part of that. I have mixed feelings

about that place actually anyway. But my mum, despite it being so complicated, was always like, she took me to see the RSC when I was eight, I saw the merch in Venice, I didn't understand a word. She was always like, learn, educate, nothing is too big. You deserve to be in any room, you can be anywhere, you're special. So I think that's why I've never really been intimidated

by status, fame, anything like that. I'm quite at home everywhere. That actually is a really brilliant thing to be able to have that though, I think. I think so. A lot of people don't feel like that. Yeah, I don't. I mean, like for somebody who has searched for home, the irony is that I can feel at home easily anywhere. And I'm not scared by status or hierarchy.

I'm amused by it. So I find it interesting and I'm curious. Tell me, King blah blah, why do you feel this way? It wouldn't intimidate me. Other things intimidate me, but not that. Oh no, I think that's a real advantage. I'd like to sort of finish with where we started a little bit really. That it sounds like you've, through the things you've been confronting, you feel like you're a better version of yourself as a mother as well

So if there's someone listening that's feeling like they could do with a bit of a shake-up is there a good Good place to start with getting on the right path to Defining that version of themselves specifically mothers or anybody Why don't we go for mothers? But I have a feeling it might tie in with everybody anyway. I would say, first of all, can I swear or should I not swear? You've already sworn you can't swear.

Am I allowed? There's such a habit of mine, I always ask people this wherever I go. Fuck everybody else, first of all. And I say that with real love. You know, I don't say that with aggression. I say that with remember you. Remember what makes you tick. What makes you tick will not make me tick and that's beautiful, that's brilliant, that is what makes us all being these great interlinked humans. If you can't prosper where you are at the moment and you feel clunky or not sure of yourself, come back to what you always loved when you were growing up.

Even if it's something really silly like you love roller skating. Like, sure, get on a pair of roller skates if you can, you know. Or, like, do the equivalent. Find, talk, see the people, the places, what makes you feel most like you. And that can be really glamorous, that could be really mundane. And also like, mundanities, is that how you pronounce it? Yeah, I think so.

Yeah. Like, mundanities, I think we overcomplicate the domestic and the mundane, because actually the real stuff of life is the everyday. Like the extraordinary stuff, the being on stage, the playing in front of whoever, the glamorous party or whatever, they're the oddball moments really, aren't they? Like the real stuff of life is how you feel when the sun is going down, when you're maybe by yourself in your home or surrounded by your family or your friends or your animals or whoever it is. It's how you feel in yourself when you're sitting at your kitchen table drinking your cup of tea. If that doesn't feel right, no matter what those surroundings are,

then have a think as to what's going on. It doesn't matter what anybody else, anybody else says around you, and it's not selfish. It's taken me so long to understand the true meaning of the word selfish. It's so important, vital to your heart beating that you be selfish. You absolutely have to be. And I would particularly say this to mothers, but to any of us at any stage in our life, like what do you want? And I would also say to remember the eight-year-old self and remember the eighty-year-old self of you because they all exist in this universe that we cannot comprehend. They're all here right now. That young girl, that older woman, they're sitting next to you right now and they're urging you on. But be true to them. God, now

this is getting emotional. But that's such a powerful image. And we don't think about ourselves in those dimensions. No. No. I want to be true to the woman I will become, to the girl that I was. Those are the only people I owe that to. Well, I guess that is what the home is, right? That's like our anchor. Yeah. That's the sort of touchstone, the centre of it all. And I love that idea about it's not the big dramatic bold sweeps. It's how do you feel sat in your, sat at a table having a cup of tea when you've just got five minutes yourself?

That's the bit you come back to. Yeah, that's the gut. If you can be good in that, everything else will start to emanate. Yeah. That's so powerful, I think. And that's like connecting to your gut, isn't it? I think in the world that we live in, we've become so divorced, you know, our head and our heart, or our head and our gut, right? But like, somatically,

we forget our body always knows. Our body knows if we're in the right place, in the right relationship with the right people. Even if our brain is going, it's okay, it's okay. You know, like, if only I'd known that was certain teenage boyfriends. Oh my god. I mean, it would have saved me so much time. But then, as I said to you before we started recording this, maybe it was part of our story, right? I think you said the same.

You need the messy bits. You need all of it, I think. Yeah. Well, I think, I can't wait to see how your kids grow up. I think they're going to be great people. Thank you. They already are. And thank you so much. There's so much wisdom in that. And I could keep chatting to see how your kids grow up. I think they're going to be great people. Thank you. They already are. And thank you so much. There's so much wisdom in that.

And I could keep chatting to you very happily. Likewise. Likewise. Such a pleasure. Thank you, Salima. Thank you. Thank you. See what I mean about all the such gorgeous perspective

that Salima has. I really, really felt so enriched after our chat, actually, and about all the lovely advice she gives, and about listening to yourself and understanding the importance of the true meaning of selfish and so far as putting yourself in the equation to benefit everybody. No one, no prizes for stifling yourself, is there, in a family, it doesn't work out. But also, I just like, I like the way she talked about time

as well, when you do this big upheaval to the countryside and then it's like, yeah, well, this might not be the whole of our lives, it's just what we're doing now. I really appreciate that because I think you can sometimes feel like you make a commitment to a certain thing that's got to happen in the future. And I don't know about you, but if I start thinking in five-year plans, I get really tense.

I'm not a five-year girl. I'm a kind of maximum 18-month planner, max. Most comfortable spot, probably about six to 12 months. Around there, some of the, you know, year away can kind of be a question mark, but I'd like to know in the next six months vaguely. But if I actually start thinking about what I might be doing in like three or four years,

no, I'm out. Anyway, you'll know from the quiet that my little six-year-old boss man has got his pancakes. I make pancakes every Saturday. And also, when Mickey and I are the first ones up, we have this deal where he can sit on the sofa, eating his breakfast, watching little cartoony things on YouTube, and I can be doing things like speaking to you, or watching my, looking at a stock crap on my phone,

or, can you hear that right on? I'm actually about to build a little Lego set. Just feel like it. But, yeah, the deal is we're both allowed to have this little happy sort of, we're coexisting but we're also in our own little worlds. And we both, I know it's a bit indulgent but we both love it so much. So this is kind of the golden bit before the rest of the family wake up.

Anyway, thank you for joining me. Thank you to Salima this week. I've loved getting to know her and sharing our conversation with you. Thank you to my lovely producer Claire Jones. Thank you to gorgeous Ella May who is very, very near to having her first baby and recently had a birthday, her birthday Ella May. So thank you to her for continuing to do the artwork even though I'm sure she's thinking that she would really like to be just slowing everything down now to welcome her baby. And thank you to Richard Jones for editing the podcast.

And yeah, have a lovely rest of your week, and I will see you next week with another guest. Bye! I'm not sure if I'm the only one who's been there I'm not sure if I'm the only one who's been there I'm not sure if I'm the only one who's been there I'm not sure if I'm the only one who's been there I'm not sure if I'm the only one who's been there You