Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 155: Jill Halfpenny

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

Jill Halfpenny has been an actor since the age of 10, first coming to our screens in Byker Grove in 1989, and most recently appearing in the Channel 5 drama The Feud. She has also appeared in Coronation Street, Eastenders, numerous TV dramas, on the West End stage and in Strictly Come Dancing.We shared our thoughts on dealing with downtime as performers, which has its challenges even in a busy career.Jill has a son Harvey who is nearly 17, and they clearly have a close relationship, based on honesty and openness, including during difficult times such as when her partner Matt died suddenly 8 years ago, in circumtances similar to how she lost her Dad aged 4. Sadly they both had unexpected heart attacks. Jill has recently written a beautiful memoir 'A Life Reimagined', which touches on both these deaths.Finally, I tried out Jill's Agony Aunt skills as she has a podcast 'Dear Jill' where she answers listeners' questions, from her Newcastle studio. I can now tell you that I am either on the right tracks as a mum or Jill was being extremely kind to me!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexta and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates Greetings from the road figuratively and literally

figuratively because I'm in Glasgow on tour and Yeah, we're about to do the third show of the run tonight. First two went well in Dublin literally because I'm on a road walking back from... I walked all across Lazo actually I went to the east side today very near Barrowlands and some vintage shops yes I know I always do that but it gives me a good little like directive for a good walk. So I'm walking for a good, oh, a couple of hours actually. And also I meet some nice people.

Hello to Kirsty from Rip It Up Vintage. She wasn't in when I went to her shop, but her partner tells me she listens to the podcast. So, good stuff in there, Kirsty. thank you. And happy to be in Glasgow. I love Glasgow and there was no chance I wasn't gonna go vintage shopping. It's somewhere I always find pieces so don't lecture me about it. It's okay. I know, I know I have a problem but I've got some good things. Anyway, I'm feeling pretty good. I just wanted to get a couple of shows under my belt and they've gone really well and I'm really happy with everything. We've got a nice mixture of

old and new actually. Richard, who as you know, married to him, yes plays both my band, yes he's also my band MD and he spends so much time thinking about the live shows and crafting it and have him to thank really for what it is and we both spoke a lot about how as we scale things up because hopefully this is my biggest ever UK tour which is pretty cool isn't it but also wanting to make sure we keep the essence of what we what we think works and what we enjoy so if you come along and have a look see what you think i think we've managed it i'm happy anyway and uh got some nice new elements, some cool video stuff. We've got a lovely photo booth that's coming around the country with us

to celebrate Peri Menopop, so you can come and have your picture taken in the booth. And that kind of becomes part of what happens on the show. Sorry, God, it's really noisy here, isn't it? But yes, it's been really great. Spirits are good, and we're very much looking forward to playing the armadillo tonight. Now tomorrow I play Newcastle which is relevant because my guest this week lives around there so she's gonna come along and her name is Jill Halfpenny. Jill Halfpenny is a gorgeous actress you would have seen her in so many things she's actually been

acting since she was 10 and I've always found her very watchable, very generous, very warm, just wonderful to watch in things. And then a little while back I watched a program which took people and they spoke to architects who pitched for building a new aspect to their house. And so it was to build a new room for Jill and her son Harvey. Harvey is now nearly 17, and what really came across in this program is their closeness. What a lovely relationship they have. Now they have been through quite a lot together. Not least the fact that Jill heartbreakingly lost her partner Matt eight years ago and he died very

suddenly, very unexpectedly. He had a heart attack which absolutely tragically is exactly the same way. It very much mirrored how Jill lost her father when she was only four. He went out to play football, had a heart attack and didn't come home. And I'm so sorry that she had to go through that. But what has emerged from that is such eloquence and wisdom around the topic of grief, which she's had to walk alongside. And so she's written a memoir about it. And there's loads and loads of wisdom in

there and practical advice too. So if you're someone that's trying to support somebody who's walking through grief, there's stuff in there that can help. It was a lovely conversation, she's warm, she's funny and yeah it was an absolute joy to see her and spend some time with her. And yeah, I'm sorry, I'm now on a motorway. I'm not sure I'm going entirely the right way. I might have got a bit distracted by talking to you.

So I'm gonna leave you with Jill and I. I'm gonna find my way back and see you on the other side. That's it, people. And to see you on the other side. It's a beautiful. It's so nice to see you, Jill. How are you feeling today? How's tricks? Yeah, all right. So I was on a train very early this morning, and I've grown to actually really like trains.

You know, I used to watch people when I was younger and they'd get a bit of work done and read a book and I didn't know I'd be fidgeting. But now I'm pretty good like that. You know, I can get some sort of stuff done that otherwise never gets done when I'm at home. Yeah, I love a train journey. Yeah, it's nice, isn't it? Yeah, and also you're kind of nicely out of contact with people. You know, oh, you can try ringing me but the signal, you know.

Yeah, it's not great. I also like putting my makeup on on the train. I'm sure other people don't like watching that but I very much enjoy that again it's just something to do. I find putting makeup on very like meditative. Oh me too. Do you? Definitely. It's like I hate doing my hair. Not interested in my hair but I love putting makeup on. Yes. I just love the feeling of like, you know, with the brush and stuff. I love watching people do their makeup as well if they do do it when I'm out and about on the tube or something. Yeah.

Very impressive if it's eyeliner. Some people are really good at it. On the though, I see people do it like in their car, which I know is not advisable, but I'm still quite impressed. You see people just driving along and they're like, you know, they've got their little whip mirror down and they're doing a bit of lip line. I'm like, are you crazy? But I'm like, also, impressive.

Yeah, I'm impressed I'm cross at the same time. Disapproving, impressed vibe coming back at you. When you're doing a play, do you do your own makeup then? Yeah, it's quite rare really when you're doing a play that you'd have a makeup artist. If it's a very specific look or if it's something like a burn or any kind of prosthetic, then you would have someone. But other than that, you're pretty much left to your own devices. When I just left drama school, one of my first

jobs out of drama school was with the Holtruck Company. And I had to play a girl who was suffering from cancer. And there was a scene in the play where she had to remove the wig she was wearing and you know she didn't have any hair so I had to wear a bald cap and it was up to me every night to make sure that the blend from the bald cap to my skin and the bald cap itself was kept in pristine condition and I used to feel really nervous about it every night because we were playing quite small venues and I was thinking oh my god people are so close are they gonna be able to see it and I think back to that now and I think that was quite a responsibility I'm not a makeup artist and you know a bald cap are notoriously

tricky yeah make look good and also you don't want to undermine the you know the vision of the play by having this really visible rollback of plastic there. Exactly, you know, just hear people going, well, she's got a bowl cup on. I can see the bowl cup. I was actually looking at your career, which started when you basically just hit double figures, you started acting. Was it round ten that you... Yeah, yeah, probably a bit earlier, but yes, let's say that because that was kind of the bits I remember. Yeah, which is amazing. And I wonder what's been your favourite job that you've had?

I think, do you know what, I find these questions really hard, but the jobs that stick out are not always because they were my favorite in terms of like just out of pure enjoyment. They're usually jobs that have really pushed me. They've really pushed me somewhere that I didn't, I haven't usually gone. So I did, when I did Beverly and Abigail's party, that was even though she comes across as such a fun character, she's actually quite hard to play, I found. And she's very unlike a lot of who I am. So that in itself is really interesting because then you're digging for things that you don't necessarily relate to immediately.

But then also, you know, she has this kind of like, this vanity and this sort of self-awareness and she really wants to be the centre of attention all the time and I know it's always weird when actors say, oh, I don't want to be the centre of attention but I actually get quite embarrassed a lot of the time just being looked at. It's different when I'm in character and I'm on stage

or the camera's rolling, but as soon as someone says cut or as soon as the play ends, I can get quite shy. So that was an interesting experience for me. And then I played another character in this movie that no one's seen called Walk Like a Panther, where I had to play a really, really out there, almost like, you know,

Katie Price's alter ego. It's like that. Like she was just so look at me all the time. And that was really, when I felt like it was working, that felt really good because it felt so on me. Yeah, so other. But when I felt like I wasn't quite getting it, I was like, cringe.

It's a massive confidence trick, isn't it? Just to be, to relax yourself, to let go of that self-consciousness and just give yourself over to it. Yeah, completely. Who said it? Oh, what's the actor called? Who played, I can't believe I forgot his name, who played the priest in... Oh, in...

Oh, God, look. We're just going to go, oh, that thing. That thing. I actually know what you're talking about. Yeah, you do. Andrew. Oh, and... Oh, that thing. I actually know what you're talking about. Andrew. Yes, Andrew Scott. Andrew Scott, thank you. He said for 90% of rehearsals, he just spends that feeling embarrassed. And I was like, yes, exactly that. You think, how can I be embarrassed? This is a rehearsal room, this is what it's for, but it's so exposing and it's so vulnerable

and to me it's far less exposing when you're actually on stage and you're in the performance, but the rehearsals, oof, I find them torturous sometimes. Well, I guess you can't fake it. You've got to just commit and then everybody's going to know what your version of that looks like. Yeah, and you're trying things and some of them don't

land and that's exactly what they're for. You've got to feel safe as well, having you with the people that are there and you're getting to know one another. Yeah. And you're working out when they do things and you're thinking oh that was great or if I were there I might be a bit embarrassed right now. Yeah it's just all so self-aware. Songwriting is like that by the way. Is it? Yeah and I remember people you've just met and you're like I've got a little idea for a lyric like tiny voice I've written it down well I'm not sure actually it's just an idea you can take you know you make it diminish diminish it's really hard. But what's the things out there? And what do you do then what do you say right Sophie just say it

you're here like you've got you just do you just give yourself a little in talking to. Yeah and probably like you, the more you do it the more you just get used to just having to flex that muscle and like yes it's a bit unusual and also there's days where it feels like a really big privilege because you get to spend the day playing and trying out ideas and not everybody gets to do that for a day and produce something new at the end of it that didn't exist in the morning but I think ultimately it comes back to just working with the same people again where I feel like oh we can cut out that awkwardness and that cringy bit and you just jump straight in yeah and then it becomes fun and you do put chuck ideas out and they become springboards but

yeah there's definitely I mean I've got I've got loads of anecdotes of awkward sort of writing sessions I mean so many I've just watched of anecdotes of awkward songwriting sessions. I mean, so many. I've just watched Better Man. Oh yeah, I haven't seen that yet. And there's a small scene in that where, you know, Robbie is having a songwriting session with Guy Chambers. And there's very like, no, that's awful. What else have you got?

No, that's terrible. You can't do, you know, and it's like, I'm like, obviously it's an amalgamation of hours and hours they spent together, but yeah, I was thinking that myself and I was thinking that's so raw. Cause even when I was writing, the rawness and the vulnerability of these are my words. Because with a script I can hide behind, well, I didn't write them. I have to say these things. But when it's your own words, you're like, no, I'm choosing to say this.

This is really- And this is your book you'd be talking about with the words. Yes, yes, sorry, yeah. I wrote a book, I'm called A Life Reimagined, but that was my first experience of sending something out to your editor and knowing that they're going to read those words and you're going to have to somehow justify them or explain them or push back or go oh yeah you're right that's probably not great and I'll do that bit again and it's just

very just like say that I think just being creative is very vulnerable. Yeah and by the way I just finished that book and it's beautiful. Oh thank you. I think as well because you wrote something so from the heart and from experiences that have made you feel vulnerable and in order to do what I, what it seemed the aim was to have a helping hand for people experiencing grief, you've got to go there yourself with all of it and explain, you know, explore all the messy bits, all the bits that you had to wade through to become someone who can walk within it. And so the funny thing about writing like that is it starts off just you and the page

and then it's you the page and your editor, and it just, the circles get bigger and bigger. But I think it's a beautiful book. Oh, thank you. And you talk about losing your dad when you were four and your partner Matt, which must be around seven years ago now. Yeah, I think it's about eight now actually. I'm terrible with numbers and stuff, but I'm pretty sure it's just past eight now.

I mean, I was actually talking about it with one of my kids yesterday because I was saying that the lady I'm speaking to tomorrow she went through this and then this and he was like flabbergasted that you could experience losing two people, two such significant people in such a similar circumstance. It's so shocking and I wonder, when you're little and things happen, there's just a sort of weird sense to them because you don't know that there's any other version of being. Yes. But as you get older, you start to think,

oh, actually it is unusual that my dad died that young and that he died in that way, and not everybody else is walking around with one parent missing from when they were little. So then to go through it again, you can see it with the sober eyes of an adult knowing that this is a very cruel fate. But one thing that emerges from the end of the book, apart from all the beautiful bits of advice and vulnerability that it's laced with,

is ending with the gifts that can come out of it. And that would lead me to your relationship with your little boy Harvey. So how old is Harvey now? So Harvey is nearly 17. Cool. Lovely age actually, I've got one at 16. I really like our relationship too.

And I watched a program with you two where you're having your home redone by an architect. Yes, your home made perfect. Yes, your home made perfect, which I know, before we start recording, I understand, still is very perfect. It's a lovely home. You went through it, three and a half months of upheaval,

but you're back in your lovely place. And I really remember thinking, well, what a lovely relationship they have. You seemed so close, and there was such an ease in your communication. And it's always lovely to see that, you know, when a parent and a child have got that. but I wonder how much of that has come out of I suppose not just the fact that you've experienced so much together but also

the fact that you were a single mum with him from fairly fairly early on I think he was only about one. Yeah I think it I think it is all of those things and I think there's always maybe a positive and a negative, an up or down, a sort of a light and shade to everything. So when I was divorced and Harvey was really just one, and I just thought, oh, this is terrible. Like, this is not how I wanted to bring my son up. And now he has a broken family and

how's this going to work? And obviously, you know, I've struggled with that in the way that anybody who's listening who is divorced will know how you struggle with that. But what have I gained from that? Well, what I've gained from that is that when we are together, there's something about the quality of the time that we spend together because we know since he was one it's every other week that's how we spend our time. So there's something about really cherishing those moments. There's also something about being a single parent where yes the tiredness and the fact that they come to you for everything can be really overwhelming and exhausting. But then what you do get to be is all of the things. So you get to be the person who is, you know, changing the light bulbs and putting a screw in the door. And then you get to be

the person that's making a cake and you get to be the person that's talking about their emotions and girlfriends and boyfriends. And it's like, we are all of everything. But I think traditionally and naturally, when you're with a couple, you know, you maybe just fall into certain jobs, because that's just the natural way of the world. It's not a bad thing. But that's what's interesting. And also interestingly for me, seeing Harvey's father also take on all of those sides of a role that he had to take on. So he was mother and father as well. And actually that was really quite impressive to see.

And it's like, yeah, yeah, like you, we have this narrative like, oh, you know, the men are not good at this, women are not good at this. But actually when we're in the position where we have to do it all, we do it all.. I love that I love the fact that you said it about his dad as well yeah and I think I my mum and my dad separated when I was little and I was with my mum she was a single mum from when I was about four to when I was about seven and we've sort of come to realize

that it was actually such a keystone in our relationship. It's actually where we really got our strong foundation from, I think. And I think it can be really magical to have your parent like that, to the person you go to for everything. But also I suppose it meant that our, because you know, separated parents

introduce your kids into a, not highly atypical, but still a different version of what's going on, and quite a bespoke version as well, because you figure out between you. So it means there's a sort of slightly adult context going on in the background, in the periphery. But I think that also means that you're seeing your parents in 360 maybe in a way that you might not if you haven't gone through things like that.

And I don't think that's always a bad thing. I think that meant that our relationship could handle a variety of emotions in a way that maybe we wouldn't have been introduced to if we hadn't been having those chats. I think that's really true. I think that, you know, obviously your mum and with me, with Harvey, you know, there are certain things that, of course, you're not going to put on complete display to your child

because you don't want them saying certain things but I would say that I was very honest and very open with a lot of how I was feeling. Obviously I made it as age appropriate as possible but I've always said you know I would never hide from them that I'd had a bad day or that I was struggling or when Matt died that I was, you know, only capable that weekend of, I was like, can we just like watch movies and like eat nice food because in all honesty, I don't think I can bear to like go out to the park and do that party and do all of those other things. I think I'm just feeling really, really vulnerable. And he'd be like,

Yeah, sure. And you know once, once I think you've opened that kind of gateway to a relationship like that with your child, I think the honesty actually then made me get better a lot quicker because I wasn't hiding and when you're not hiding you're not keeping anything down, you're not a pressure cooker anymore. And you're like, actually, I am all right. Yeah, we will go to that park. Yeah, we will go to the park because I'm not hiding anything from him anymore.

I'm just saying, oh, I feel a bit raw today, Harvey. And he'd be like, okay, well, you know, let's just go and talk and have some fun. And he was really cool. And now I've got a 17-year-old who will sit down at the dinner table with me and say I had a really rough day today at college and I'll be like why? And he'll be like well this happened I got a phone

call from this person this person said this in a text and you know it really ruffled me and I think oh this is amazing because emotionally he's so in touch with not just himself but being able to communicate it. Yeah, that's an amazing thing, isn't it? No, that's such a gift which will carry, you'll have that for life now. He'll be able to really listen to people. Yeah.

More of that, please. Yes. I love that. I was thinking about your dynamic because for him, seeing you go through losing Matt, how did you deal with introducing someone new into your life? Because he must worry about you being hurt like that, in a way that's not just someone breaking your heart.

We're talking about the loss of a whole future. It's hard, isn't it? Because, you know, a lot of people want to talk to them about that very thing about, oh, when do you introduce someone? How do you introduce someone? I don't think I have the answer. I think that you've just got to do it when the time feels right, when instinctively you feel like this is something that is going to go

somewhere so therefore you feel like you have to start introducing them to like the sort of like larger parts of your life but with my boyfriend who I met just a couple of years ago what was really nice was the way I met him was that myself and Harvey met him without me, without obviously knowing we were going to be together. We just met him because he was showing us around a tourist attraction up in Newcastle and we'd been invited to go and see it. And he was like, oh, why don't you and your son come up and I'll show you around.

So Harvey actually met Ian and I met Ian just as a person. And then our relationship grew into something lovely. So what was really nice was Harvey Nett was never even introduced to him as my boyfriend. He was just like, well, I know Ian. I met him that we spent that day together. Because that means they have their own relationship on its own terms. And I think that's been like really obvious watching their relationship grow. There's something very natural about it because it wasn't like,

and this is the person you now have to like. It was like, oh, I like that guy. Before I even knew he was going to be a part of our lives, I got on really well with him. I mean, this is the other thing, like we were saying, he just is very capable of getting on with people anyway. He just is emotionally, and he's very curious about people which I

would presume your kids would be as well because I think when you grow up in a household where your parents are often in and out they have different people coming in they're working with different people it's just there's a sort of a creative atmosphere that means that People are just oh, there's a new person. That's cool, that's exciting. What have they got to say? Yeah, definitely. And I think also they grew up in a very chatty house. Very, I love, I'm curious about people. So they kind of learn that as well a little bit from me.

Yeah, it's lovely. It's probably started from me when I was, I remember I embarrassed my mum one time because I came home from a play date and the parents dropping me off were still there. And I said in front of them to my mum, why don't you just ask me now what they do for jobs rather than when they've gone? Because my mum would always be like, what do they do? What do their parents do? Don't be sad. Don't do that. I'm not interested in that. What makes you think I'm interested in that?

So funny. And I suppose also, I lost my stepdad a few years back, so I think of people like Ian and Matt, and I see them in a stepfather role. And forgive me if that's not quite how Harvey perceives either of them. It's not for me to suppose that. But how do you how do you keep Matt part of Harvey's life or you do? Yeah I think because and I do it like talk about this in the book and again it's it's not it's not a slight on my mom because it was just the way it was back then you know in the 70s. When we lost our dad I I think my mom went into survival mode. And she just, I think it was just easier for her to put that loss away in a box and keep it shut. And never to speak about it.

And the idea was we look forward, we look forward, we look forward. You know, a new person comes in, we get on with our lives, everything's fine. And I think that, of course, like, you know, we have to live our lives and we have to be as present as possible. But I think it's important to reflect and it's important to remember those people. So when Matt died, you know, I made a little promise to myself that I would speak to Harvey about it, remember when we did this and when we did that. And because of that, again, because kids kind of just reflect and kind of copy

behaviors that they like, he will then say to me, you know, oh, I was thinking about Matt the other day, or I had a dream about Matt, or remember when we did this with Matt. So it's like, I never wanted his name to be a secretive word, a word that when people brought it up, don't say that, it will upset everyone, which is kind of how it felt in my household. I just, I think the people that we love and we lose should just be around us all the time. Their names should just be like ready to pick off the tree, like at any given moment for somebody to say, here's a memory, or here's a thought,

or here's a little story. And I think that's really beautiful. And I feel like they are around us all the time, don't you? No, that really makes me smile because I think, I feel like the people that I love and the people that I've lost speaking about them makes me feel closer to them. And I think feeling, even feeling grief feels like love,

it feels like a privilege because it is the, it's testament to what they meant to you. And I feel like it's something about it that is comforting, actually. Very comforting. And I suppose, you know, you've spoken in your book a lot about the realization of all these things can coexist. You can have the sadness and the happiness and the highs and everything in amongst all

at once. And you've also spoken about how your mum, again, her instinct was to not make you sad, but didn't really talk too much about what your dad was like, because she was worried that it would make you miss him more. Yes. So of course, what you did is privately tried to conjure all of this and dealt with this magnitude of this missing individual who you didn't have many memories of, but you knew meant a great deal to you. I mean, that's like, that's a rich well, isn't it?

And that's why I always say like, that's why like, please, you know, whether it's a stepdad, a grandma, a nana, just keep that person alive, because when you're gone, that person will keep that person alive when they're gone, the person they've been talking to, like keep talking about them, keep, and be as specific and as rich as you possibly can with the detail because especially as a child or even as adults, I've heard it

before with adults as well, the things that you make up I think tend to be more negative than positive because you think there must be a reason why somebody doesn't talk about that person a lot and that reason is probably negative. It wasn't in our case at all. Yeah. But I think that's where your mind can go. Like I say like a secret, something too that would be a bad thing to be talked about. Yeah. And that's what I just would, you know, wouldn't want for anyone. No. And I wondered as well if watching Harvey's experience of grief which I think kids are quite open to that idea of all

those things running simultaneous in the way that we lose a little bit when we get older. You know of one moment being distracted by something or seeming lost in a moment or be happy by something but also have all the other emotions running alongside so as long as you can always bring it up when you want to I think it's okay to acknowledge all those facets. Yeah and I remember that like watching Harvey as a kid and just really loving and learning from how they can be so excited over I don't know a new toy and then be so upset within 15 seconds because, I don't know, it broke. Or their favorite thing on telly is not on telly anymore. Or that they can't do the thing that they were going to do at the weekend. And they just jump in and out of emotions so quickly. And

like you say, they're just, everything's running alongside each other all of the time. And I do think maybe for us as adults, we feel like when things are supposed to be happy, it's just got to be happy. This is a happy occasion. Let's not talk about sad things. It's like, actually, a really happy occasion does have room for a sadness as well, because you can hold that within you,

but still be happy but there's room for bringing that person in your mind to the table. I think it's a lovely idea to think that things are just always always like existent with each other and then I think it stops you from being bitterly disappointed or well stops me anyway because there's always this idea in my head that you know right things are good now so they can only be good oh things are bad so they can only be bad and then you know a long time ago someone said what if they're just like constantly good and bad I was like what

and I'm like yeah that's much more realistic like at any given time and you will know this because you've got a big family especially at any given time, and you will know this because you've got a big family, especially at any given time, all of your family are not going to be having the same experience all at the same time. So one kid's up here, the other one might be having a bad time. And it's like, life is always, always, always moving, isn't it? And we have to learn how to move with it. Yeah. And that's to me the secret of it, the sort of flexibility of moving like the river, you know, through life.

Yeah, keep flexible and optimistic for things to be. Hopeful. Hopeful, yeah. That's pretty vital. Yes. I imagine for you and Harvey, that was a lot to navigate as well, when you're having...

I think loss of hope is probably one of the scariest things, isn't it, to experience in your life when you think, I can see what I've got, but somehow I don't have any hope for the future. Somehow I can't see that this will ever get better. And I think that's... When people reach out to me, that's often like their biggest fear. Will it always feel like this? Will it get better? And I'm like It will get better. But you know what it might get worse again, and then it gets better again

And then it gets worse again. I just think that we're just Always always just moving. We're always going in and I mean in any given day I mean I can wake up in a great mood and by nine o'clock I can be like absolutely livid about something. I can't relate sorry. I'm just like come on you know. Yeah. Since the book have you found that people will come to you and share things with you and does it become a little bit hard to have, to open lots of conversations about other people's grief or does it not really feel like that? I think I'm a person who like very much feels quite deeply and when people come to me with

their story, if I don't feel like I have the right amount of time or attention to give them, it can feel like I've somehow not been careful enough with them. Well, that's because you know what it means to you as well, I suppose. Yeah, so that's a worry for me. If somebody just stops you and starts talking to you but you literally have to be somewhere or you're being pulled away somewhere, and think oh that's oh no that's that's dreadful they'll think that I don't care but I don't I don't think they really do think that I think they understand but yes I'm very sensitive to if somebody

opens up to me then I know there's a cost to the opening up of yourself yeah and actually it's really hard when you open up and you feel like maybe somebody hasn't heard properly. It really stings, doesn't it? So yeah, I do feel responsible. But then I also feel incredibly grateful and privileged if somebody wants to tell me part of their story and say that they relate to something or... Yeah.

And they always help me. Yeah, I think there is a lot of that. part of their story and say that they relate to something or yeah and they always help me yeah yeah I think there is a lot of that and I think also if you're with acting that you're you have to be open up to people's stories that's part of how you've how you've probably navigated things yeah it all becomes an aspect of healing I think yes with your work, if I go back in time, what was happening when you had Harvey? What were you up to when you first became a mum? Yes, so when I first had Harvey, the first job I did was when he was about three months old, which was not ideal. I'd done a play called Survive and Spike, which was about Spike Milligan,

and it had done quite well and they wanted to take it to Edinburgh. And we didn't know if it was going to go or not. I had Harvey. I was pregnant while I did it the first time, then I had Harvey, and then they were like, it's going to Edinburgh. And I think I just thought, right, Edinburgh's sort of two-week job. It takes a lot of energy and a lot of attention but it is only kind of two, two and a half weeks. So I thought I'll go and I'll do that and actually it was probably harder than I thought it was going to be. I was still breastfeeding a little bit. He was really tiny. Things, you know, weren't great from a personal point of view. So that was a real struggle. And then I went on the Strictly Tour. Oh wow.

Yeah. Yeah. And then which actually, you know, really helped me because again, like when I get out of my head and into my body, that really helps me see clearly. I certainly, things start to really fall into place for me and I can, I have a very clear. Specifically dancing or just?

I think not specifically dancing, but because that job came around at that moment in time, that was perfect. So I did that job and I started to realize that things probably weren't going to work out, but I still wasn't ready, well, neither of us were ready to sort of admit that. And then I went into Calendar Girls in the West End and then straight into Legally Blonde.

And by the time Legally Blonde had finished, we were separated. So it was a bit of a whirlwind of kind of jobs and, but again, Legally Blonde in itself, that really helped me. That's a really incredibly upbeat musical. So I would go to work and I'd be like so sad and so like, oh no, everything's falling apart. This is terrible. And then I'd have to go on stage and just be incredibly upbeat. But that music never failed to change the way I felt anyway. Isn't that amazing? It was amazing. What a tonic.

Honestly, the live orchestra just does something to my body. I like that too. Yeah? So even though you know when your set finishes, things are still exactly the same, it doesn't matter for those two hours. My brain just allowed itself to just relax, relax, and I really think it helped me get through it. So when you said about you can get out of your mind when you're in your body, you can kind of see things clearer.

I kind of want to understand that a little bit better. I think, you know, people might call it rumination, overthinking, the pure anxiety of how something is going to turn out. Right. So for me, it was like, I mean, my marriage is definitely, the pure anxiety of how something is going to turn out. So for me it was like, my marriage is definitely, it's either broken down or it's about to break down. It was kind of happening as I was doing Legally Blonde.

So the sort of anxiety of that and what will become of me, will I ruin Harvey's life? How are we going to separate? How do you get divorced? I don't even know how this works. All of those things when I'm on stage and I'm in my body and I'm dancing and I'm singing and the live music's going through me. I can't think about those things anymore because I have to concentrate solely on what I'm doing. But also, what I am doing, the movement and the singing and hearing the music, like gives me endorphins.

So it's like I was depleting myself through the day with total anxiety. But then I was sort of like regenerating in the evening with the show. And the regeneration meant that when I went home at night after the show, I just, instead of going straight back into massive overthinking and projection, it was more like, okay, this is not a good situation, but it's going to be sorted out. These are the things you need to do. It was like my brain slowed down enough to just give me a strategy. I completely get that. Yeah. Do you ever read the Num? I think it was like the Bino or the Dandies,

there was a thing called the numb skulls and they would put little messages in the brain of like a message and they're quite unsentimental, just go get water or do this and it would be like little instructions. I think sometimes when you are involved in a task that's taking your adrenaline and redirecting and channeling it, it's like you can have this clarity of thought that's almost like

billboard messages of this is what you need to do. And it's like everything else is sort of all the peripheral static. Yes, it's sort of gone and it's just more and it's almost like I can imagine. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I imagine you being on stage and completely and then getting a thought and being like, Oh, I've just received quite a quite a big thought, but I'm kind of just viewing it and I'm not engaging with it or spiraling about it. It's almost like a fact.

Exactly. I kind of get that. Yeah, and I think that is what, in the past when I've really had a stronger meditation practice than I do now, which is something I really want to get back into, that's what that gives me as well. It doesn't, it's not like, oh, suddenly I'm miscalmed. It just gives me moments sometimes, like you said, so those cards just go into their slot and you go, okay, I've got that one. That's clear. That's all, it's just, even if it just gives me one second of clarity by doing 10 minutes of meditation a day

I'll take that to me. That's that's valuable enough I'll give 10 minutes of my time for one second of clarity because on the days where there is none It's like a living hell. It's like like you said, it's just just noise washing machine just letter So I mean I think the more I understand about the way your mind works like that, the more unhelpful a lot of the way we're programmed is and when we're not doing things,

because we've given such a priority to our thoughts that we sometimes ignore all the other stuff that's going on with us, about all the things we're doing, all the things we're involved with. I think it took me quite a while for the penny to drop, that that's what meditation and mindfulness and all these things are about. And also that you can find that in other places,

it doesn't have to be, you know, head spacing. It can be listening to music or your work or running, or any of these things can give you the opportunity just to remove yourself, be in your body in a different way and then allow the thoughts to be a little pure and a little less fizzy. And sometimes when I think about, you know, if I think about some of the work that, you know, my stepdad had to do, like really tough work on like building sites and working with concrete or when he worked on the ships and he was an engineer and you

think it's just heavy, noisy, hard labor. But sometimes I think, but when all your energy is being taken up physically, it does give your brain a bit of a rest. And I think because a lot of what we do now is just not as physical. Even meetings on Zoom and oh, you're distracted and oh, there's the kettle. It's like sometimes I just think, oh, it's just the physicality I miss sometimes

of just that everyday work. And I think that's why when I do theatre, and especially when you do musicals, because they're so full on and it must be the same for you when you're doing gigs, there's just not, you just have to give everything to it. And it's almost like, oh, I can just switch those buttons off and I can just go into this world now. Yeah, it's such a relief just to give yourself over to it like that.

Isn't it? And I can't, no one can get a hold of me. Yeah. Yeah. I'm here doing this. So true. I'm in this moment. Yeah, it's really, I don't think I quite realized

how significant that aspect of what I do was until the lockdown actually, when it wasn't there. And I was like, oh, I haven't got that room I normally go into that gives me that space. It's gone, so I can't find that somewhere else. And that was, I sort of not really acknowledged it in that way, I think, before. It was just kind of, you're in the doing

and you're not really thinking about it so much. And then what did you find yourself? Did you find yourself like overthinking? Did you find yourself worrying more? Yeah. What was happening? Yeah, I definitely think I was struggling just to have space. I kept over everything. I just need a room that's my own. I felt like it was a literal space and mental space. I missed the casual punctuation of everyday life that I think is actually my glue. Walking home from school run, getting myself a coffee, getting on the tube to go somewhere, all those

punctuation marks, I need those bits. I need that respite from the doing sometimes. I've been thinking about this loads lately because you know when I'm out of work and I've been out of work so much like throughout my career I've had so many like long spells where I've just not been doing anything and if you had have said to me even a year ago do you like structure I would have been like no I'm not really bothered about structure my life is really unstructured. Yeah, I like structure. And I think, but maybe more specifically, the way you've just described it is what I

like is punctuation. I go, right, and at nine o'clock you go to the gym and then you go to that place to get that coffee and then you might pick up some food afterwards. It's like, even if that is the kind of structure I've got, even if it's very basic structure, I do like it. I really struggle, maybe now more than ever, with just waking up and my boyfriend will say, so what have you got on today? And in my head I'll go, absolutely nothing. There's absolutely nothing that I have to do today. And then I have to tell myself that I have to give myself things to do.

I have to make the structure. No one else is telling me what to do. And it's really hard mentally. That is the biggest struggle. So when people say to me like, oh, you know, have you got any advice on being an actor? I'm like, the advice for me is always, how do you operate in your downtime?

Because they're the most challenging times. They're working as easy or easier. It's the downtime where you're like, you're just on your own with your own head going, I am so pointless. I am so, but I literally need to put points in my day to make me feel like there's a point to me being here today. Yeah. What can I achieve by the end of the day that didn't exist in the morning?

That means even if it's just like baking something or doing a recipe, fine. That's the new thing I did. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes I'll find myself, you know, all my friends who have got jobs and some of them don't like their job and, oh, I've got to be in it at 8.30 and, oh, I hate that person and've got a two-hour meeting with them. I find myself even thinking I Even wish I just had a meeting with somebody I didn't like And it's so ridiculous that that's where your head gets to but it's like but at least I'd feel like I could even whinge about something

But oh god that meeting was dreadful. It's like, no, there's nothing to say. What did I do today? You have to go, well, I chose to do things. And it's so, and people will say, but I would love some time off. It's like, you would only like time off if you knew there was going to be a time

when you'd get back, which is why COVID hit us all so bad. Because we never knew, we were never given a date when everything was going to be back to normal. And it sent people like really, really crazy. And that's what it's like. You're out of work, never known if you'll ever work again. I mean, you have the faith and you kind of go, well, logically, I guess something will come up. But there's no facts there. No, and I think also when you are having those bits where you're not working, I'm like, if I just have one thing on the horizon, I can put all my focus on that. I will, I promise.

I will do it to the best of my ability. But it's just the, yeah, I just need something to hang my tomorrow on. Just one little thing, please. And I heard you say something, and I don't know what it was, but you were being interviewed, and it was so poignant, because you said, I think someone was asking you about, after the success of Saltburn and all of these nice new opportunities and adventures that came your way, and you were like, yeah, it's all brilliant and I love it, but psychologically I hadn't

prepared myself. So it's like explaining to people as well when creatively you say you want a job, but then all of a sudden there's too much. And you go, oh, my child's going to think I'm ignoring them and oh God, I don't spend any time with my partner and I'm going to miss that person's wedding. And it's like, it's such a tricky road to navigate because there's always a cost to less, more, too much, too little.

It's really, it never feels like there's just a really good balance. It's so true, it's so true. And I think the momentum that comes along with a job that twirls you around can make you feel a bit like, I wasn't quite ready for this. It's like strapping yourself into a ride and thinking it's going to be gentle and finding out.

It's like, oh no, there's like a bit where we go upside down in a minute. And you just have to get yourself in the right head space and feel, for me it's all about feeling like I own it or it's a tone that makes sense to me. I think I get unnerved when I feel like I'm going to be put into a version of myself that doesn't feel like me. Yeah.

That's the bit when people around me are like, oh, this is going to be great. And I'm like, I don't know it will be great because I don't feel great about it yet. Yeah. But if I can work out what I need to make that the thing, then great. But I haven't quite got there mentally yet. That being said, I still think the doubt, the bit with nothing going on is way, way worse. It's way worse. It's so bad. Oh yeah, give me the too much any day. I mean, I'll work that out. I really will.

Yeah, I will manage it. Yeah, I'll definitely manage it. I'll come to terms with the new success. Thanks. The busy diary and me will work it out, but the quiet diary and me. Ooh, it's a real... Chilly.. Oh, it's a real test of how much you want something, but also what you're made of. And how honest you are when people say what you're up to. If you're going to be honest, you have to keep it in a way that's still silent, like you've got a bit of optimism around the edges.

It can't be too heavy. Absolutely nothing. Zero. Zero. and like you've got a bit of optimism around the edges, it can't be too heavy. Absolutely nothing. Zero. Zilch. Sorry, sorry, did you ask me a question? I'm not used to company. I mean, I've got a two hour meeting with someone I hate tomorrow.

I'm just putting an entire... It's so stupid. You know when this is really off topic, but in Japan you can hire different people to do different things. You can hire an old man to watch a movie with you who will wipe your tears if it's a sad movie. And I bet you can book a horrible person for a meeting. Well I've definitely heard about them hiring partners. Yeah. So that I think you're absolutely

right. I think they're pretty much you can have anything you want. So I just need to live in Japan and that would be culturally acceptable for me to hire a friend to hang out with. Or someone you don't like meeting. Well, given the unpredictability of work, how do you navigate? I have it bad with my kids where I go away sometimes and the little upturned faces of what I thought you'd be here for my birthday and you've missed the last four of my birthdays and no I haven't and let me check the diary. Oh crap. I actually have Been away for that but at least they have with the camaraderie I can kind of feel like I can lose myself a little bit

But if it's you and Harvey it must sometimes feel quite stock if you're like, I'm away or I'm working or maybe it's not maybe It's kind of more straightforward. No, I think it can feel quite stark. I mean, obviously, I think myself and Harvey's father have been really lucky in the sense that it's just worked out that when one of us is working, the other one isn't. That's just pure luck. So I think there's always been that.

And maybe there's been the odd occasion where both of us have been away. And I'm lucky, I have a really nice family and I have a bit of a village of people around me that can look after them. But yeah, I think it's just a, it's the feeling that they might think that you don't care. Hmm. That is, you've chosen that over there and that's more important to you.

Yes. Yeah. And I think that that's really, that really pulls, you know, really, there's a cost to that for me. But this is what I always say as well, like I grew up with a mum who was always there. If I was going to like a dance competition, my mum would be the driver. She would be the one driving three other kids in the back. If I was doing, I don't know, like some performance she'd be there probably every night watching it like I had the opposite of that and one of the, I don't think that that's a bad thing at all, but one of the things I do

remember thinking as a kid was, I wonder what my mum likes to do herself. I wonder what gives my mum joy. So even though I can feel guilty, I think one of the things that I will hold in my head always is I want to show Harvey that doing something just for you, that you love is not a bad thing. Yeah, that's very true actually.

And that's a little bit of a longer game in a way, because it means you have to hold on to that for what happens when they're older and they can see that. They're not going to get that when they're small. They're not going to be able to imagine that. When Harvey was little and growing up, did you try, did you find ways to involve your dad with him, or did it not feel like part of Harvey's story if that makes sense?

Yeah, do you know, that's been much harder for me because I wasn't brought up with all of those memories myself. It was always just really hard for me to, you, I'd I'd talk about my dad in the sense I'd like I miss my dad, but what I couldn't say to him was oh my dad showed me how to To do this one. So my dad took me there because I I just don't have those memories the only thing that I'm really Put a huge smile on my face was that when Harvey was tall enough, I gave him some of the clothes that I had of my dad's that I loved. But in all honesty, I would put

them on and I'd think, God, I just really don't suit these in the way that I want to suit them. So once he was tall enough and big enough, I was like, he's got a lovely like vintage hood denim shirt. And then I was like, oh, you know, this used to be my dad's, you might like this. And he just put it in his wardrobe and I thought, oh, maybe he doesn't like it. And then he was just going out one night and he was just like, say yeah.

And he had the shirt on and he looked amazing. And I was like, you see, that's even just that, like the passing on of that and the fact that he wears it and he knows that that's his Granda Collins shirt and he loves it. That's very sweet. Yeah, things like that really bring me a lot of joy. Yeah that that's his Granda Collins shirt and he loves it. That's very sweet. Yeah, things like that really bring me a lot of joy. Yeah, that's really lovely actually.

And I think, because think about the fact that your dad's brother married your mom. Yes, so became my stepdad, yeah. And that might as well have, it's unusual that the person that came in to take on the stepfather would also have a relationship with your dad in that way. So that's another way that as well, this image can maybe emerge of... Definitely. ... who he was, mannerisms too, physicality actually.

Yes. And then weirdly you would think because my stepdad was my dad's brother, you would think then, oh well, he would be full of stories, but actually I think there was something in the air about, no, like it was too difficult for him to talk about his brother as well. And very recently lost my stepdad. very recently lost my stepdad and um... I'm sorry that's... Oh no thank you but he just you know before he went he just he just said you know I just want to be with Colin and it just really it really really touched me because I was like I know you do I just I know you do like it kind of...

He's giving me goosebumps. Because it all made sense. Is that his bigger brother or his younger brother? He was older than my dad. Okay. And it just really made sense. I was like, of course, like your position in the family with us was, of course, like you loved my mom, but it was about caring for us, making sure we were looked after, it was a duty but I think when you lose a sibling or I think you often think why wasn't it me? Yeah. Why should I be here? Particularly his baby brother, his younger brother.

Particularly his baby brother and I think that was like, yes suddenly the picture just it sort of fell into place a bit and I just thought oh you're gonna be with him now and that's actually where I think you've always wanted to be. Yeah, and I guess also for you, in that moment, you don't see him as the adult male figure. He becomes like that man who lost his brother. Yeah. It sort of falls away a little bit, doesn't it?

It totally does. It's crazy, those things. It really is, because it's so interesting when you go through life and say, he's my stepdad and I'm his stepdaughter and that's the kind of role. And then all of a sudden, especially when it comes to the end of someone's life, I don't know, roles and dynamics and all of that, it's like everything melts away and you're just like so human and just so like,

oh yeah, of course, like all of these ideas, well they didn't do this for me and they were that and all of these narratives that we're having, you just think none of it matters. We're all just absolutely trying our best here. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I know it's crazy and all the crazy all the you know functional and dysfunctional ways we've shown each other, what we mean to each other as well. Yes, absolutely. All the messages within it, even if it's not said, you suddenly just get left with all the markers of it. That can be quite poignant too. We've talked about when the diary is not so clear, but what are you up to at the moment,

Jill? I'm actually talking about the here and now very much. So I just wanted to talk a little bit about Dear Jill, your podcast. Yes. And advice. Yes, doing a podcast called Dear Jill, and yeah, it's an advice podcast. And people just voice notice. And I try my best to sort of, you know,

give an idea or give an opinion. And like I've always said, it's like, I don't think for one minute I have the answers to everything. I just really believe that saying things out loud can just often be the thing that you need. It's like sometimes you say something out loud to your friend before they've even said anything,

you're like, oh, I know what I need to do Because now I haven't been in my head. Yes, so that was kind of the idea and that's been fun So I've been doing that and I'm filming I've just finished filming something and I'm about to start something else I don't know if I can say what they are yet. I don't know if they've been released but Okay, sorry But I've got something out something something coming out very soon called The Feud on Channel 5, which is about a woman getting worked into a house. Oh, sense.

Yeah, so Ash, the guy who wrote it, it's a really funny story actually. So he was writing something for Channel 5, I don't know what it was, and he came onto a Zoom meeting with everyone to discuss it, and he was in a really bad mood. And one of the execs said, like, well, what's wrong with you? And he's like, nothing, nothing. He's like, come on, spit it out. He's like, oh, I'm just, I'm having an argument with my neighbor about this flippin' extension that we're getting done.

And there being this, and there being that. And as he started telling the story, the exec was like, you should write that. And he's like, no. And he's like, you should write that. So obviously it gets like completely out of hand and then terrible things start happening because it's a drama. So we've like, we've really pushed it as far as it can go. But I think it is something that everyone will be able to relate to where, you know, you start out with an idea of something you want to do and your neighbors are like, yeah, that would be lovely. Oh, yeah, of course. And then of course, the practicalities and the

reality of it sets in. That is right. And it's right, isn't it? Yeah, that really is. So that was really good fun to film because there was a lot of arguments with a lot of different people. And everybody's got a story about someone or someone they know falling out with their neighbor or something like that.

Yeah. So that was really good fun. So you don't have to book in any of those meetings at the moment. That's good, I'm glad. The other question I have for you is very superficial, but it's actually superficial rather. What was the tourist attraction that Ian was showing you around? So it's called the Annick Garden. Oh, okay. And it's attached to the Annick Castle, which is the castle they used in Harry Potter.

Oh, amazing. If anybody would recognize that from listening to it. But yeah, so there's the really beautiful gardens. I wanted to ask that since you said to her. And they have opened this new play, like it's a sort of a huge play park. I think it's supposed to be the biggest in Europe or whatever. Or they've got the tallest slide, something like that, called Lilladori. And that was the story.

The story was I got invited to the opening of it and I thought, I don't really want to go with all the cameras and stuff because- Opening the tallest slide? Yeah, like the opening of this play park. It was like, everyone come along and have a great day. And I was like, yeah, but you'll have a camera in your face the whole time.

No one wants me to photograph going down a slide. Do you know what I mean? So I sort of politely went, oh no, I don't, thank you very much, but I don't think I'll come. And then this email came back and said, hey, that's totally fine if you wanted to come on a day when the photographers weren't there, I'll be happy to show you around. And I thought, well, that's a really nice offer actually. So there you go. I'm glad.

And it also sounds like a really great playground. I had a question for your dear Jill, because I was thinking of something the other day that I needed a bit. It's quite lightweight, but I think there's an underpinning thing, and I just wonder what you think of it. Go on. My six-year-old likes to sometimes look on Amazon on my phone and look at toys. He got very obsessed with a toy that was 30 pounds.

He's nowhere near Christmas or birthday. And he got very obsessed with it. And I've decided, I have ordered it and it's coming. I said, you can have it if we do a bit of a clear on it, get rid of some toys at the charity shop. But then I thought, am I doing the wrong thing by buying him something when it's nowhere near a birthday, nowhere near Christmas.

And I thought as parents, it's now so easy to buy stuff and buying things, I find fun by the way. Like I love new toys, that's fun for me too. But should you hold off on things, just to kind of stop encouraging this like very easy, you want that you get it? Or is it okay to sometimes just be like, it's coming and it'll be here next Wednesday? I think the fact that you're even thinking like that

must mean that you're very mindful to not give them everything that you could probably give them. So I think the fact that... I like your answer already. I think the fact that you've even thought that means you're like... It's great. It's fine. Okay, great. I think it's totally fine. I feel better already. I used to do that with, I think as well, like being, maybe being a single parent and you know, like if we were out and about, or let's say you know you go to one of those ice shows and those stupid things they sell are like £15. Yeah, if I've got four kids I'm probably not going to get them all a wand for £15 but because I was only one I was like okay then and I

used to feel a bit guilty. I used to think oh will he just think that like every time we go somewhere he can have all the things but in all honesty I just I don't feel like he is like that and I just I can't imagine if those are your thoughts that you have children who don't value what they've got. Oh, that's really nice. I like that. And actually, you talking about Harvey like that reminded me of something.

When you were talking about working away from him and having to navigate missing things, I actually think that something I learned from having my parents in two different households was the ability to see significant events as more of a season than a day. Yeah. And so to spread out how you might celebrate a birthday or make special time that isn't

necessarily on a specific day, but can be part of a theme. I think that's really, really good. I'm really glad you said that because I used to worry about that. So essentially, he'd be having like two birthdays and one would be on his birthday, but one would be not on his birthday. I'd be like, does he think it's less special? But I think it's such a flexible way to think.

It's so less rigid. And I think it makes for a happier adult because you know, he might meet someone who does work away a lot and has to say, we'll celebrate your birthday when we get back and he'll go, that's cool, I've done that before. Exactly. I think it really does.

I think that rigidity and that sort of like, it has to be the day and it's got to be like, I mean, honestly, the way some people celebrate their kids' birthdays now. I know. I mean, honestly, like, wow. I used to like, there was some presents on the table, I opened them, then I went to school.

I mean, so you know, we'd have house parties in that but wow The lengths that go to now, I think it's incredible when you see them when they're doing that and it's like the birthday party For like a one or two year old. They're not even remember it. No, okay Okay, two more things. Yeah How do you feel about the prospect of the fact that Harvey, as he's growing up, will be fleeing the nest and doing his own thing? Is that a thing for you or not too much? He's still quite young, I know that.

No, no, but he has already talked about leaving. So somebody said once, and I think I've really taken it to heart because it makes me feel better that if you bring up a child and they do want to leave home and they do talk about having their own place quite early on you've done a really good job in the sense that they don't feel like they have autonomy they feel like they can make their own decisions they feel like they're independent people and they know that I'm gonna you know he knows'm going to be there whenever he needs me. So of course, like I love, I love having him in the house. I will miss him massively, but there's a part of me that's like so excited for him to live his life. Like I really love the idea that as a parent, you them up and you look after them until they can't look after themselves

physically. And then your job is to go and now go and now go and have the biggest adventure you could ever have. And I will always be here when it goes wrong, when it goes when it goes crazy I'm here all the time. I'm not going anywhere But I need you to know that all is good here and you don't need to like look back or think about me You just need to go and have your adventure. I feel like my mom sort of was like that with me when I wanted to Leave home when I was 18 and go to drama school. She didn't go, oh, how am I going to feel about you? You know, you're my youngest and you're fleeing the nest. And she just was like, go on, go for it. Have a great time.

I just think that's a real gift. It is, it really is. And also, I suppose, when you've been, you know, what you experienced when Matt died, the idea that he would feel excited about the future and confident and able to do that. If you could go back to that time and say that's what awaits, you would feel incredibly reassured that those days would come.

Yes, definitely. Because that's one of the biggest things you'd worry about and imagine. You don't want them to lose their spark about what's coming. Or be fearful. Be fearful, yeah. I'm frightened about you, that he might have been terrified about you. I would hate that if he said,

will you be all right? Yeah, exactly, I can't go for you. I'd be like, well, I haven't done this right. It's like, no, no, I'm more than, and that's part of like, even in the early days when I was working after Matt died, and there'd be times when I'd be like, I don't know how I'm going to do this.

What am I even doing going to work but what he saw was just somebody doing the thing going to work and actually just functioning and yeah I just I never I never want him to worry about me as a person like I obviously you want your child to care about you but I don't want him to worry about me I think that's very different. Yeah that is very different and I suppose that also leads really nicely on to the other thing I wanted to ask you which is how significant to the way you've found your path through losing your dad and Matt is the fact that you were Harvey's mum for

the time you lost Matt and for the last 17 years. How much has that played a part in wanting to move? And wanting to what let him? Just a moment to wade through it to do all this I think he's been so significant. I think he has given me such a reason to explore and go as deep as I possibly could and really, really harness the pain and the suffering

and turn it into something that is, I'm not even saying turn it into something that is... I'm not even saying turn into something positive. Turn it into something that means I learn from it. Like I think he's been like such a strong reason for me to get out of bed. You know, even in those early days, I literally got out of bed because I had to take him to school. Otherwise, I wouldn't have got out of bed. That was an amazing gift to have to drop him off at school

and then to have to pick him up. But then since then, as he's become more independent, I just want to be the best for him as well. Isn't it funny how you sort of want to impress your children? Isn't that really weird even to say it? And I mean that in the most like... Well you want to model something for them as well. Yes, yes.

Not like show off in press. More like, look, this is like, this is like just, you get one chance at this. Sometimes you're saying it to them but you're saying it yourself too. Yeah and I just want to... Working through it all. Yeah. And I think I've spent a lot of my life questioning myself and doubting myself and worrying and no doubt he will have picked up on that There's no way I've hid that from him

But I I do want to reiterate a lot of the time just just go for it fall flat on your face Make the mistakes all you have to do is keep getting back up. That's really the only thing you have to, there's just persistence. Yeah. Well, I think it sounds like you have a lovely relationship with him and you're obviously very good at the advice for him, for me today, but also for yourself. What's the gift, by the way? What was the gift? What is it?

It's like, have you heard of these things called Marvel legends? They're like, what is that, sort of like nine inch little figures that can move a little bit. And he's already got a Wolverine and a Sandman, and he's found this guy that's called Colossus, who's not a character I've ever seen before. I think it might be from a movie he hasn't watched, but he's become obsessed. And the problem is now as well that they're so used to, you know, you order something and they're like, oh, it's coming tomorrow, or it's tonight, you know, even. This one's coming sometime next week.

And I've tried to elongate the time just so I can prepare myself. But he went to sleep talking about it, he woke up talking about it. It's a big deal. Isn't it funny how obsessed they get? I mean, Harvey asked me, I would say for a good straight three years, every single day he would ask me if you could be an anime character, what would you be? Still to this day, I don't really know any anime characters. I'm like, I don't know, give me a choice.

I know. Give me like, you know, give me A, B or C. I'm like, because sometimes they'll be telling you about anime things and you'll be like trying to keep a handle on them, wading in and out of listening 100%. It starts to float. I can't answer that and I've got kids who are into that as well. But I love it. I love their obsession and that they're really into something. I think it's so lovely to sort of have that sense of like concentration over one thing. It's lovely. Just immerse yourself in that world and they don't care about any of the concentration over one thing. It's lovely.

Just immerse yourself in that world and they don't care about any of the rest of the world. I think you sort of lose that a bit as an adult because you think you have to care about things that are boring to care about. Yeah, it's true. Let's do it. No, no, it's lovely, that kind of thing. It's just that it amalgamates in a lot of things.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much. We've still got tea left so cheers to you and to Harvey and to your dad Colin and to Matt and to Ian. And to your family. Thank you. Thank you Jill. So lovely to chat and also what a brilliant, I can knee aunt she is. Very good with the advice there and I needed a little bit of help. I liked it. She's very, very quick to come out with the wisdom. I appreciate that.

I hope that where I'm speaking to you from now isn't too noisy. I'm backstage at the New Castle venue and it's quite blowy isn't it can you hear the air conditioning it's quite noisy anyway I really enjoyed talking to Jill Halfpenny and thank you so much to her for coming and talking with me and as I say again her book is wonderful and she's currently appearing on a Channel 5 drama called The Feud, if you want to catch up at the moment. So lots of lovely stuff and yeah I'm now talking to you from Newcastle as I said. I've had a good day here today. I went out shopping. I think I do have an issue actually when it comes to shopping. I shop too much. I buy too much on my way. But then I find bargains. Today I found the cutest little 60s dress.

That was the most expensive thing I bought, 45 pounds. But it's really, really nice. And then I bought like a purple silk polka dot 80s top that was seven pounds 50. And a sort of, actually also quite 80s, like a pastel turquoisey little cotton shirt that was eight pounds. So, you know, there's a bargain really, isn't it?

That's the trouble, I think, as I indulge it because I'm like, hey, hey, it's good value. But I do wear these things and I do love them. As much as I love doing the podcast, actually. And, um, yeah, where are we at? Now, sort of halfway through this series, still got a lot of lovely chats coming your way. And I'm feeling good about tonight. This is a lovely venue I'm in.

This is the Newcastle City Hall, and it's really pretty. It was built in 1927, so it's kind of got old bones, and it's really, yeah, it's quite handsome. But then so is Newcastle. Had a lovely day wandering around here today. Been a bit blustery, but it's still been really nice. And I will be heading overnight to York. That's a lovely place. I wonder if I'll go to the Yorvik Museum again. That was a brilliant experience last time. Anyway, I'm waffling on as usual. Thank you so much for lending me your ears.

I'm going to get ready for the show now. It's about half past six, so I'm on a couple of hours. And thank you so much to Jill for taking the time to come and speak to me. And happily for me, I'm going to see her after tonight's show, so that's sweet, isn't it? And thank you to Claire Jones for all the beautiful notes and for producing the podcast, to Richard for editing it, even while we're on the road. But none of it works without you. Oh, I should actually also say a thank you to Ella May,

does the beautiful artwork. She's only a couple of weeks away from her little bubba being born now. And I know that she struggled a bit with sickness. So sending love to you Ella May, you got this, your baby will be here soon. Yeah, but big thank you to you, lending me your ears and all that. It's always nice to have this space with you, I love it very much. And on that note, I'll see you again next week. Take care, lots of love.

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