Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 156: Cathy Dennis

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

Cathy Dennis is a singer and a songwriter. I have been a huge fan of hers for years both through her solo music career and I’ve been lucky enough to write with her and get to know over the years. She is a true talent and a champion for music and creativity. She had a successful solo career in the early 90s, and then changed to songwriting in the 2000s, including writing Kylie’s ‘Can’t Get You Out of My Head’, Britney’s ‘Toxic’ and Katy Perry’s ‘I Kissed a Girl’.Cathy told me how she was bullied at school, from the age of 7-12, and how that may have equipped her to be strong and tenacious enough to be a woman in the music industry.She became a mum in 2004 (the same year I became a mum!) and found it a challenge to carry on with her career at that point but here she is, still writing and involved in music. Cathy credits her son Seb with being her solace when she’s found her self on the ’nothing will ever be perfect’ train. It was so gorgeous to talk to a friend who I admire and whose career is constantly evolving. A lovely conversation! XSpinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexta and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates Hello, I'm in my dressing room. I'm in Manchester Where have I found you? I hope everything's alright in your world. I am

on stage in a couple of hours for, actually, I'm talking to you, I'm gonna plug my rollers in. It's time. Yes, I'm on date eight tonight. Eight of 17. It's been going really well. This tour is really like bedded in now,

as it always does. And it's really, yeah, found its feet. It's feeling really nice and comfy, which means you can also start to have more fun on stage because you sort of trust in the process. The crowds have been absolutely brilliant. The last one we did was in Liverpool. Oh, the Philharmonic, what a beautiful venue. And it was sold out and the crowd was awesome. But yeah they've all been really fun. Tonight I'm at the Apollo, it's my first time

playing here for a headline show and it's really beautiful inside. Manchester's looking good, the sun has been shining so has me unzipping my rollers. Yeah it's been really sunny and warm. unzipping my controllers. Yeah it's been really sunny and warm. Yesterday we had a day off and actually it's our only day on the road where we're all together because all the remaining days off I'll be at home. So yeah we had a big sort of band and crew afternoon evening. We went and played a place called Junkyard Golf which is really good fun. If you like your crazy golf, I really recommend it. So that was good giggle. And then after that we went for a big Indian meal at a place called Tiffin. And it was really tasty and a really nice thing just to sit down and be with everybody.

Because yeah, it's quite precious really and I think it's always good to market and it's quite easy on tour for everybody to kind of go into their own little world and everybody does their own little thing during the day. So actually having some time together was really nice. And then, yeah, tonight, what time is it now? Quarter past six on Saturday night, so a couple of hours and then take the stage and then tomorrow in Cardiff, Monday, Birmingham and then where have I got left? I'm gonna tell you because I've realized all the dates I've said will have

probably already happened by the time you hear this. Then we've got Brighton on Wednesday, Bournemouth on Thursday, Saturday in Oxford, Sunday in Bristol, Monday in Plymouth, it's Monday the 9th I'm talking about, Wednesday the 11th in Sheffield and then finishing up at the Royal Albert Hall on the 12th of September. Wait, not September. I won't be there in September. 12th of June. Sorry. I didn't even read September where I said that. Anyway, sorry. Brain cells. Never mind all that. I hope everything is well in your world. I have such a lovely conversation for you today. I have most of the podcast episodes that I've recorded. They might be women that I've met before, but they're very rarely people I know particularly well. And I've done a handful where I've got kind of more of a relationship with people before we record and today's guest is one of them because today I have for you

Cathy Dennis. Now Cathy Dennis I first knew as a pop artist that I would play on repeat. I absolutely loved listening to Cathy's music when I was a kid and I would definitely cite her as one of my influences. And I think actually her music is still pretty timeless. Lots of good songs and I was always really intrigued by her. I found her really mesmerizing. She would wear bright colored cat suits with this fiery orange bob haircut and she just looked very cool and a bit otherworldly.

Gorgeous voice as well. And then when I started making my solo records, Cathy was out in force as a... she was like honestly the pop writer on everybody's lips because she had hit, has had and will continue to have hit after hit after hit. And what I love about Cathy's work, firstly I think it's got a real signature to it. There's often very slinky, very cool melodies, but also I just love the fact that when I've been lucky enough to write with her, which I've done lots of times actually over the years, she is very uncompromising. She's generous, she's open, you know, she goes into the room with an open mind, an open

heart when it comes to songwriting, but she's got a very clear idea of what she likes and I love working with other singers to songwrite because songwriters who've been artists or are artists in their own right, they just understand a little bit more about the relationship that I need to have with what I'm singing. So it really gives proper space to that in the room and if I've recorded my vocals with Cathy she is a stickler for getting exactly right so the first a good case of that was a song called Catch You which was a single on my third album and I did my vocals with Cathy and she was listening to every breath every intonation of the vowel but in a way that was very caring and detailed not

like it gave it life rather than making it hard to work. I actually learned a lot from her in that session and I've kind of applied a lot of that learning going forward. So yeah it's been lovely to talk to her, hear about her relationship with music and her relationship with her son. So she has Sebi. Sebi is the same age as my eldest Sunny so they're both 21 this year. And they're very close, Kathy and Sebb. And yeah, of course, when we've been songwriting together, we invariably talk about our boys. And yeah, I can just see that she's a very dedicated, very loving mother.

And it's been fascinating to hear how she deals with her creativity and gives that space and also raises her boy and has brought him up on both sides of the Atlantic and well you'll hear all about it. I don't want to spoil too much of the chat but it was just really lovely and quite giggly as well which is always nice. Anyway so I will leave you with Kathy and I. I think that's all that you need to know. Yeah, so he's like, he's 20 at the moment, he'll be 21 later this year. And it's an interesting chapter actually when you speak to mothers of children where they are growing up because it's actually such a nice time for your relationship. It evolves, it changes, but

I mean, I love having big boys. Anyway, I will speak to you on the other side. Thank you, Azever, for finding us here. How are you, Cathy? I'm very well. Thank you. Felt like we had to suddenly get a bit more formal, which made us both giggle. Before we start recording, I was saying, I actually haven't had many people on the podcast that I have a relationship with outside of, it's often like maybe the first time I've really got to know someone. So it feels really nice and really special to have you with me actually because we've

got so many happy memories and I've known you for quite a long time now. Yes, yeah. I think it's been well over a decade since we first wrote together, first in the studio. And how are you? What's going on in your professional life at the moment? Let me start with that. In my professional life, I... So I mean, after the kind of 20-year stint of...

No, actually, no, that's a bit harsh. 15 years, let's say, writing for other people, I have now actually reached the point where I feel like I'm done with that and I'm kind of moving on with other ideas. But I will always want to be immersed in music and I've sort of somehow managed to find some branches recently, which I've climbed onto, and I'm hoping they're not going to snap. Oh, that's a lovely bit of imagery. I would expect nothing less. But it's interesting, isn't it?

Because you said about, you know, your relationship with music, which presumably is something that's run alongside you from the moment you can remember really, like it's so entwined in who you are. And when you started out, I would imagine that the idea of all these different incarnations of your career, maybe what didn't even occur to you, what that might look like. Well even when I think back to when I was at school I had no idea. I mean music was a hobby for me from the age of around five and I started earning pocket

money from music from the age of 13. But I was always encouraged to try to do, I can hear a cat. Yeah, I've got four cats. Oh lovely. I was always encouraged to try to get on the conventional train. I didn't know anybody else unsur, who had parents who were musicians. I was quite enamoured by their ability to make a living from it, but I saw that it was very hard. I mean, every single gig was like lifting all the furniture,

or lifting all the gear. I know, that was a fun opinion, doesn't it? Massive speakers, and I will never forget, just thinking, my God, my dad's back must be breaking, these huge PA systems. And he had to put them all in the back of a van and then unload them and then set it all up because he didn't have an engineer, obviously. And then at the end of the, when you're all hot, sweaty and exhausted, you have to pack

it all down again. Yeah, dismantle it all and reload it and then drive back. And, you know, quite frequently, I would, because I went along a lot, and we would get home at like two in the morning, three in the morning. And was your dad performing with other people or did he do it on his own? No, it was had the band. He was a band leader. A lot of my education,

actually, I was there physically but I wasn't there emotionally. Yeah, so you know education for me was a bit of fun. Aren't we lucky that that's, I mean since I left school I don't think anyone's really I'm so sorry to say that. No, but it's true and I think I can really relate to that. I mean I don't know about fun exactly, I think I felt a bit more pressure but I definitely felt like I wasn't thinking like oh school, halcyon days, I was just in an absolute race to get on to the next bit. I just was like something else is waiting and I need to find my people and get out there.

See for me, the school life, after, I mean I was badly bullied for the first, probably until I was around 12. From seven till 12. Seven till 12? Yeah. Well, Cathy, I'm so sorry. That's horrible. Well, it just makes me empathize and, well, it's created a monster. I mean, look at me.

I'm just so defiant. It's interesting, isn't it, how the people that try to knock you down can be the ones that put the logs on the fire, actually. Yeah, absolutely. They're doing exactly what they don't mean to do. They're giving you this grit of just you wait, I'll show you something. Yeah, exactly. And even today when people think that they can call you stupid names or try to take from you, you get the opportunity to say,

to say, no, I know that I'm much, I feel like I'm much stronger than I'm supposed to be. I know that's going to sound really strange. No, I like that. Well, because I'm like, I'm still a girl, you know? I'm a girl, I'm a woman, I'm a lady, I'm a whatever. Funnily enough, I've been singing the Lisa Stansfield song around the kitchen, like, I may not be. But I'm a woman. And I feel like that's me.

I really identify with that. You know, and I feel like whatever I am, I've got in me so much strength and I'm never going to break. Wow. And I suppose there's so many layers that get you to that point, but at the same time maybe a little kernel of it is you at that tiny age actually, just having to find that. Yeah, that really turned my life around. Because I wanted to be accepted and I guess even when, I think when I was around 12 years old, I kind of realized, I don't have to take this. And I started, I no, if somebody wants to call me names, you know, bring it on. There comes a point when you're in a steal is almost saying go on then what is the worst

you can throw at me with your words because when you're feeling that, when you find that fire yes, there's a real power in that but I wouldn't, it doesn't mean you want to wish on anyone else to go through that path to get to that feeling? No, and you know when I was, I think you know many many musicians are extremely empathetic and I always found myself trying to be friends with the other people who I identified in my school years, who I could see were being persecuted in the same way. And it might have been because of the color of their skin or it might have been because of their sexuality.

But I never wanted to do to somebody else if I never wanted to do to somebody else what had been done to me. If I hadn't been through that, then I wouldn't have been strong enough to take on being a woman in the music business. I wouldn't have had the gore. I wouldn't have had the tenacity. Plus I think you end up meeting a lot of those people who felt maybe a little bit on the outside of things when they were younger. That's kind of where the creatives sometimes congregate a bit of like similar stories, similar experiences.

Yeah. As assumption, if you get up on stage, that you've always had this extrovert energy, but actually that's quite often not really how it works. Yeah, and it's as if you've always been treated as if you're special or something. Well, you know, that's the opposite for a lot of people, but I do know, that's the opposite for a lot of people, but I do know it's interesting

how many people were marginalized and that gave them the fire that they needed to stand up. You know, I mean, it really, it's very challenging. It's make or break. It is make or break. You know? And I always knew that I wasn't going to let anybody stand in my way. I did think about calling my biography something like that, but... Yeah, but then that is, yeah, but that's because of making. Or maybe just having like a battering ram, you know, on the front cover or something.

I thought that would be quite effective. But also I like the fact that it's kind of, as you say, like it's almost a bit unexpected. All your layers, I think that's what I've always found something I've really loved about spending time with you is I think there's some, I find like a lot of how you think about your perspective is properly like intriguing and quite contradictory with things as well, which I really enjoy. And you're always very curious about exploring

and pushing on all those edges. So now you said you're finishing up this 15 years of writing for other people. So what's the next bit and how, and why do you have to be conscious about that? Does it not just evolve? Or is it a chapter you feel like I'm moving on from that? Well it did evolve naturally and I definitely don't think I that you know it's almost an oxymoron coming out there definitely I just probably woke up one day and felt like this isn't working.

And I feel like I'm just treading water. That's the enemy of creativity, I think. Yes, and as a really free spirit, I mean, I've always... There's elements of writing that I've always struggled with. And I think I've only probably done my best work when I have removed all the boundaries and refused to get in the box. But there's been so many sessions I've done where I have been required to get resentfully into a box. And one day I just think, oh, no, no more.

Yeah. But I love writing. I'm still continuing to write, but I'm not writing music in the same way, and I'm still involved in music. So I'm trying to be, you know a little bit more about what I'm talking about than I want to reveal at this point, but I will always be obsessed with music. I think I've possibly gotten to the point where I'm done with analysing it. Yeah, it's really fulfilling for actually a surprisingly long time, but I feel like I've

finally got to the point where I'm free of that necessity to keep on breaking everything down that's going on in a piece of music. Yeah, that's exhausting. It's exhausting, but it's rewarding. Because you're detailed on those things, aren't you, sometimes very meticulous about... Yeah, I'm obsessed about details yeah and I've so I've I've really enjoyed my journey but there does come a day where you think that's enough. So when did you become a mum in amongst all of that I'm trying to think what was going on in your work? Yeah, so I became a mum in 2004. Oh, same year as me.

And it was the happiest outside of music that I've ever felt. And it obviously was a real challenge to try and carry on with my career because at that time I just hadn't my biggest hits. You know, I literally came off the back of can't get out of My Head in 2001, and then I think Toxic was in 2003. And then I remember doing I Kissed a Girl when I'd had Seb, and so it came out in 2007, but I think it may have been written in the session was in 2006 and

So I remember having Seb in New York with me for the session But having a babysitter And but having a babysitter and but I always it changed everything once I had Seb I became the nine-to-five before that I'd been the seven day a week yeah we can finish at you know seven eight nine p.m. You know, it's all good, because it's all for the music, you know? So that changed. It gave me some parameters for the first time, which I really needed, probably. And yeah, he changed my life and gave me just a whole, well, another reason for living, you know,

which is amazing. Yeah, and from where I'm looking at things, it seems like the two of you as well, I've moved around, you lived in the UK, he's had a childhood in here and America, is that right? Yes, so because of I've always maintained work in America as well. We've moved around. He traveled to Miami and New York with me for sessions and LA for sessions. And then by the time he was about four, I realized, actually he was able to express to me by that point, I really like traveling. I really like traveling.

So then it was OK, all right, in our spare time, when we're not traveling, now we're still traveling. So he really enjoys seeing the world and having new experiences, trying different... he's very adventurous with his food. I mean I've kind of been there, I've been there, but I decided quite early on that I'm just going to reign it in. But not your son. But not him, no. And I guess it must be, so now he's turned, he's 20, he'll be 21 this year.

Yeah. My eldest has just turned 21, like last week. It's quite funny, isn't it? Because when you have them, you picture when they get to those ages. You sort of work out how old you'll be and then suddenly you're like, oh, we're here. It's already happened. It happens so fast.

So fast. Everybody tells you that. But it's also, there's something strange about living in the bit that you thought about so much. Oh, they're fully grown. They've graduated. There's all these next levels. But what's it like when you two have been so close and spent all that time together and all those adventures? How is it to have them moving into the next chapter where you're not in each other's space as much?

Well, he's had a girlfriend for the last couple of years. Oh yeah, that's quite significant. So that was the biggest blow. You're not number one anymore. That must really be like, okay fine. Do you know what? I really like her and- That's really really tough. Okay, fine. Do you know what? I really like her and I try to include myself in their plans as much as possible.

And I try to get in there first when his birthday is coming up and when Christmas is coming up. And so far it's worked. I'm sure two years in she's like used to how this works. She's picked up on that. I'm still there in the periphery. She's like, can I have a table for two? I mean three actually.

And checking up the phone, okay, your mom's texted, now I'm going to wish you a happy birthday. Yeah. You know, I've got her in my WhatsApps and, no, it's, I'm really happy for him. I mean, I wouldn't want to be territorial. No, and also, I do think- I think that's okay when you're younger, or when they're younger, you know, but then, but now like, this is, the butterfly is, is, you know. Yeah. It's out of the cocoon.

It's arrived. And I think you've also, there's something really wonderful that you can raise someone who feels able to be in a relationship with someone. I actually think there's, you've given someone who feels confident and it's saying, you know, I remember the first time I heard one of my kids say I love you to someone they were dating and I was like, I've done something great if he feels you can say it and receive it. That's a good sign. Yeah.

Yeah, it's like a significant moment I think. And I think that it's natural that you, I mean, you're always going to want to protect them. And I kind of remember going through this stage of worrying that he's not really ready for this though. Like he's going to get his heart broken. And you know, you're still trying to throw out the safety, you know, the cushions. Because you, but you have to let them go and I feel like that's been really hard but I feel like that's something I've achieved in the last

year even though I am still including myself. It's okay and I'm sure he wants you to be included too because they still need, I mean I still need your parents like you still need your mom it's like a... I think yeah I mean you know what like every day you get to be with together is really precious and I'm just viewing it that way because you're giving them memories and they might not be aware of it yet because when you're young, you tend to think that your time goes on forever and it's very difficult to have a realistic perspective of how long life is when you're younger. Oh yeah. But obviously as you start moving through the years, things change and you realise every

day, every conversation is really important and it's giving them something that they're going to hopefully recall later on. So since he was born, when you performed at Mighty Hoopla in 2019, was that the first time you'd done anything like that since he'd been in the world? And what was it like for you? Because I had your vinyl, I loved your solo career. It's very much entwined with my love of pop music and all the things I was soaking in. So it's been very much a direct influence on what I've got up to.

And I've always wondered what it must have felt like to sort of morph from your solo world into the songwriter in the room, and then getting this, you know, quiet tenacity that's got you to the point where people actually really listen when you're coming up with ideas and getting in the room with good people but then also then going back to the solo thing at that point in 2019 and how that must have felt to get back on stage and also how it was to sort of

park it for a while that side of yourself., there's a lot of things in there. Choose whichever bit. Yeah, well I definitely remember feeling like I'm never going to be able to stop performing and I felt like it was an addiction. And it bothered me. And I do, you know, I know a lot of people don't believe in manifesting, but I really

do think that all of these, you know, old adages about like, be careful what you wish for, they, I really relate to them. Because I definitely put out there, into the universe, I don't like feeling addicted to this. I feel like it's so egotistical, it's bothering me. And so I feel like I hatched something which which then came around and... Hatched something, sorry, in the... In the universe. With what though? With which bit? With all of it? Well, in regard to feeling uncomfortable,

I mean, I'd always had my reservations, but like feeling uncomfortable about being an artist. I see. So you hatched the thing that would give you the things you needed and also allow you the space to kind of release that feeling of like the things that made you feel a bit jarring. I think I became more rebellious as a writer. And at that point, I was still trying to write as an artist,

but I became rebellious. And so therefore the stuff that I was writing was much harder for my label to connect with. And they just couldn't, they couldn't get their head around it. But I think it was just a reflection of who I was and how, I don't want to say confused, but I was always aware that there were

so many different sides to me. I felt like I was so fragmented creatively and I wanted to honor all of these different little bits, parts of me. And so I kept kind of like one day I was one thing and the next day I was something else. But I never wanted to be who I was expected. So if I felt that there was a trench that I was supposed to, and I'm sorry for using that analogy, but that I was supposed to get in, I just couldn't do it. I didn't want to do it.

I would not do it, basically. And then it took me to a place where, you know, I had a few years of being quite confused and eventually realizing that I had a talent in writing, which I should be using. And that's what took me to writing for other artists and writing with lovely people like you. And how, well firstly I think those rebellions, those acts of rebellions are really important. I feel like the bits

where you push back on things or say to, I don't know, the label, your fans, yourself, maybe you don't know everything there is to know about me just yet, there's other sides. I think those actually, regardless of what happens to them commercially, I think those become these really significant moments in a career and allowing a path through the stream. I think they're vitally important actually. And I think as well that the manifesting thing, I don't even know what people would have to sort of push back on with that really

because I think we're all doing it, is what you, the semantics of what you term it. But everybody makes choices, teeny tiny choices all day every day that end up giving, I always think of it like a ball in a pinball machine. Your little flippers that will influence where you're headed to a point where you kind of, I feel like from my point of view, you almost get the career you deserve by all these teeny tiny decisions, the bits where you go, I feel great about that, I want to run towards that, and you know what, I don't really like that, and I'm doing that, but I'm sort of dialing in a bit and I don't love it.

And all these little teeny things that become very bespoke ways to get to a place where you're hopefully, if you're lucky, and the wind's in the right direction, at a point where now I feel like, oh, I've kind of got to the bit where I'm having the best bit of fun even though You're encouraged to think that the big flush of success is the bit you should be finding the best bit I actually know there's so many ways to have a fulfilling career Yeah sides of what you knew is from looking from the outside in when you start Yeah, I mean it I I definitely would agree that the journey was totally unpredictable for me.

But I definitely relate to what you're saying about... Because I think that the musical career can be broken down into stages. The first part is curiosity. And then you have to go through a period of analyzing music, because you need to understand it. Then when you start creating music for yourself, you are, I don't think this is even a term, but kind of micro-editing.

And I think that's what you were just talking about. I like this, but I don't like that. I like that word, I like that note. And there's something wrong in the production. There's, you know, and like all these tiny elements make up, you know, what finally gets accepted as that song. you know, what finally gets accepted as that song. Do you believe that every, because this perplexes me sometimes, do you think every backing track or, you know, instrumental could be unlocked into something wonderful with the right top line or something's just inherently never going to quite find their feet?

Because I think as a top liner that can really be a niggle. Well I do think that there's a time and a place for everything. That's a good point. And I think that things happen when they're meant to. And so going back to the micro editing, you might hear one word, editing you might hear one word it whether it's in a session or out you know in whilst you're outside enjoying the rest of your life and you think hey I really like that I mean I can really see a concept in there and you bring it in and somehow, or it will stay in your mind until that moment when everything falls into place. It's like having the thousand piece jigsaw and days where like there's just

pieces that are missing, they've gone. And then another day, they're all there, you just have to arrange them all, you know? Yes. And then, and that day, it works perfectly. And what about when you had Sebi, did you take things home and play them to him? Because that can be a good litmus test, can't it?

Never played him anything. What? Never. Oh wow, but they're like, okay. I like curious like what's do they sing along to? What do they bop to? Okay. I'll leave them out of it for now. I never played him anything. I mean you know that that period of my life I was a single parent and I remember I was still very much obsessed by music and giving and trying to fulfill myself through my music. But when I got back at 5.30 or whatever it would be. When Seb fell asleep at like, you know, 7, 7.30, I just felt like a lost soul. And I didn't want, I, my, that was my work. I didn't want to bring it in. I'm very, I find, I feel like

it's very important for me personally to compartmentalize. So my work was my work. It's always been my work, you know? And so that's how I justify like, I wouldn't expect him to understand it. Sometimes now I will play him something and when he is supportive or says, oh, I really like that, I just feel like he's just doing it to be nice to his mum. That's okay. Sometimes that's nice too. But I wonder as well for you, when you're having these absolutely huge successes with songs that you've been a writer on, it must have been so satisfying to see the shift in how people would talk to you

and the way people respond when you're like, I see you. Because when things like success, that success has many fathers and failure has an orphan, when there's something that works, everybody's like, I want a piece of that. And suddenly if you've won so many awards, it's very much being the epicenter of a place people want to be and also they want a touch

of what you do sprinkles on their projects. So did that feel quite satisfying to have that power of like, okay, I see what's happening here. No. I can honestly say I never found it satisfying at all. Never. Okay. And that really bothered me.

And it really bothered me because I knew that I should be, there's so many occasions when I thought to myself, why does this not fill me? Why does this not feel good? Why do I not feel like I'm going to have a nice day now? Why am I still worrying about collecting ideas for my session tomorrow or the next day. And I really felt that it was an addiction. So it wasn't, I don't think, there's so many elements of it which are really positive, but there are definitely also,

just like anything that you can be addicted to, there are sides of it which are not good for you. Yeah that's really interesting because I thought that might feel quite like... Never. Just like a quiet power of like hmmm. No but I am, don't get me wrong, I am vengeful. And I just love that you see those people on the way down that gave you a hard time on the way up.

Yes, definitely. It's interesting, isn't it? There's so many people. When you've had a long career, there's all these characters and you're like, all the people I thought would crop up again and again, I didn't think it was going to be you. It's always the people you're not expecting. So it's interesting what goes around and the ones where you're like, oh, they're still looking around the edges or the good relationships too, people that stick it out and you're like,

wow, look at the two of us, we're still here doing, having the same style of conversation from years back. I think that's a nice feeling as well. Yeah. Well, I think you can go a long way in the business by placating everybody. But that's just not who I am. I'm very much, if you don't like what I'm doing or the way, the expression on my face. The expression on my face. You know, I've never felt that I needed to compromise my integrity. And that was to me, that was integrity. And that was to me, that was integrity. Being true to what I was feeling was, that was

very, very important to me and I never wanted, I would never actually find the idea of, you know, just being sanctimonious, just quite abhorrent. And, but there are plenty of people who revolve in the music industry because they, I get that, you have to, you know. Yeah, and also you need all the different characters. It's got to have everything represented somehow in the way. Yeah, and you need the challenges

and, you know, like, and if it was all, you know, easy every single day, then we wouldn't grow. And we need to be challenged as humans, as creatives, we need to be challenged. We need to be told that, you know, that people don't like what we do that we we haven't got it that we we're not as good as so-and-so or yeah I think a lot of things rely on that competition that assumption as well that that's something you're the game you're playing in your own head she's so unhelpful particularly for solo artists especially young female solo artists. You're so encouraged to look left and right to see what they're doing.

And then... And I never... I feel so lucky that I never, ever felt like I needed to do that. No, me neither, actually. And I push back against it. You have to push back against it in interviews as well. It's a game people love to play. It's seen as like it's... Yeah, they think that's what's seen as like it's, yeah,

they think that's what's going on behind the scenes and it's actually really unhelpful and it really diminishes as well. There's room for so many people doing so many different things. It's like a very unhealthy way. Now more than ever. Yeah.

More than ever. I mean, there's literally, well, I don't know how many, you know, musicians, songwriters there are currently in the UK, but it feels like in the last five years, it must have like quadrupled at least. I mean it just with the whole TikTok thing with the whole... It's not a great income but it is at least an income and for people who really enjoy music they can still do another job and satisfy that side of them, the artistic side. Yeah, and if it's what you want to do, it's just what you want to do.

It's like, I can feel great after writing a song and I'm always amazed with that heady feeling you can get just from something that's... Exactly. My favorite songs are still probably the ones that never got released. So it's not about what some song earns you it's not about having other people you know validating it. No. It's it's um but that stuff puts meters on the plank for being able to keep doing it and make choices. It's probably to say loads of things. It does give you an artistic freedom. But I think, I feel that with the evolution that's just taken place in the last few years the access and the desire to create music is just more popular than ever.

And sorry, just to circle back to it, because I realize I didn't really ask you this, but how did you feel when you performed again when you did your last gig? Oh yeah, sorry, I think I managed to dodge that one. No, I just want to know because I think it's, I mean, I've watched it and it's celebratory. I think it's, and the audience reaction, by the way, gave me like, made all the hair stand off. I was like, gave me tingles.

Well, it was really nice to get on stage again. And to be honest, the only thing I was really concerned about was I better not forget my lyrics. You know, and these are- That crowd would have remembered them for you. You didn't need to worry, they would just catch you up. And so bizarrely I had to have a cue on the stage. And actually I have to say when I was younger and I used to forget my lyrics I used to make new ones up as I went along on stage.

That's a talent in itself and actually it makes you realize as long as you've got confidence most people think you're right and they've got it wrong if you do that they'll probably be like oh okay I always thought it was that but apparently it's something completely different. Yeah I did hear about somebody else doing that I think I heard that it might have been Nina Simone I might be wrong but somebody... Oh someone very cool. Yeah like just making up new lyrics if they forgot them. It might have been Nina Simone, I might be wrong, but somebody... Oh, someone very cool. Yeah, like just making up new lyrics if they forgot them. There's nothing quite like the panic of realizing you don't know what's happening next.

I just thought, oh, no one's going to notice, are they? If you do it confident, I think you can get away with most things. That's true. I sometimes will be singing and I'll have a voice in my head going, you've forgotten the first line to the second verse, haven't you? I know you have. So here it is, it's coming up. And then...

So what's it going to be? Yes, so what's it going to be? Sometimes it's muscle memory, so you'll start forming a vowel or a consonant, you're like, I'm just going to trust that maybe this is going to be a word by the end of it. Or you could just kind of like ask the audience, how are you feeling? Yeah, woohoo! See you at the back there or something. See you online too.

Exactly. And having your baby, you know, be 20, did it make you feel differently or see it in a different way about what you were getting up to at that same age? And the age when you got started and your first success because it can be quite sobering I think when you see your child and you're like oh I was actually really quite young. I think probably with things like I mean that this is where you know me involving him and his plans seems to be working really well. With things like him, because I moved away from home when I was 17.

And I literally left Norwich or you just moved to another? I left Norwich and I moved to London. And I didn't have any friends, but I did, I made a couple of, well, I made one friend pretty much immediately and we're still great friends. That's cool, but that's very little, isn't it, to move away to a completely different... And she had done the same thing. So you know, when you find people who have, you've got that same, everything's on the line. You know, you're doing it because you believe that in something, it's going to come from London, you know?

So those kind of things, I mean, he hasn't actually moved out of the nest, so to speak, because when I go and visit him I stay there you know and so I feel like I'm managing to cheat some of those realities which should be presenting themselves to me now. I think as well it's a different it's a different landscape I think and we see ages slightly differently maybe. I don't know. I feel like…

Yeah, people say that and I mean but it's difficult to… you see things how you see things like and if you've grown up with in this generation well that's how you see things you know. Yeah, that's true. things you know like you can only I mean I do try to challenge my my perspective on a daily basis and but yeah you know I'm never I mean when he says if he says hey I'm I'm gonna get married and I'm gonna move to so-and-so I I know that my first thought will be let me check out the properties there is if I can I think it's lovely though because it's testament to your relationship like

every time we spoken about it your face is really lit up and I think that means that you guys it's a lovely up and I think that means that you guys, it's a lovely, positive relationship. I think that's wonderful. And he clearly... Yeah, he really is. He really is, you know, as children, are they? You know, they're a beacon in your life. And they, you learn so much from them.

And actually, when they get to the age when they can really articulate back to you, Hey, you know, for instance, we've had conversations and he's like, you're not listening to me, you know, like, and he'll say it a couple of times. And then I'll say, well, I won't say it, but maybe I'll realize actually, you know what? I'm not listening. He really wants me to hear this. So I better shut up for a sec. And stop being mum. You know? And I'm trying to. The problem solving is what you feel

that you're supposed to be doing. Yeah, but I feel like now we have transitioned into a place where I'm his friend, who's constantly there in the background. I'm learning from you here. I'm like, okay, this is how I'm going to play it. Do you know what? One of my friends said to me, if you want to keep having valuable time with them, keep

booking holidays. Keep booking holidays. In really good places, in Thais. Yes, exactly. So they want to go. Last year we did we did Japan. Good one yeah. And I'm trying to think of um I mean there's so many places I could you know yeah um interest him in but yeah I've always got that up my sleeve as well.

Actually I think as well they do come back around. I actually have my mum, brother, sister all come out and have time with us during our holidays, summer holiday. I think these things do come around. You have to lay the groundwork. You might have some time where it moves off a bit and then they come back. Like I spend, I have a lot of time holidaying with my mum and doing that sort of stuff. So I think it does come around. Yeah. Yeah.

That's what I'm playing on as well. Stealthy, stealthy. You've got to keep it open. And also they come to you at different points with what they need. Um, yeah, what they need keeps changing. Like, I mean, just because this is what's happening today. I mean, if you think back to your life at that time, well, you know, everything is a fleeting moment.

And like you were just saying about the micro editing, it's hey, I like this, I like that, da da da. And they're, you know, they're changing. Yeah. Like they're not, I mean, I don't think you probably stop growing until you're around 80. Yeah. No, and it's really healthy and wonderful to stay curious and keep all those questions coming. Like, I know that you're like that a lot, and so am I, like when you were saying you keep challenging your perspective on things.

So healthy. I'm thinking though, when you're saying about, you know, the successes you've had and how you haven't always found that's not where your satisfaction is, what is the bit that gives you the biggest satisfaction then? What is the bit where you feel like very content? I think looking back now that I can enjoy the songs which have been successful now because it's been such a long time but for the first five years when I should have been enjoying them, I wasn't because I was still wondering if that was right or thinking about remembering the session details. Interesting.

And, you know, some songs I insisted on writing a second chorus. I mean, like, I... Well, after you'd put it down, you'd be like, oh, I've had another idea and another idea. Yes. Writing. So it's like writing a whole other song on the same music. So like... And you do that for your own material too? Or this was when you were songwriting for others because you'd be second guessing what if you'd honed it?

Yeah, no, that's when my neurosis became the worst. When I was, because I... I really, I was doubting what I was doing a lot. And of course the more that I went into these sessions and the record execs would say to me, hey, we want another, come on, get you out of my head. Really helpful comment. Yeah, so like. You want another massive hit record? Sure, of course you bloody do.

And so, you know, like you just walked in there, like you literally would walk in the door and you felt like you had sort of like sacks of rocks on your shoulders. And so that self-doubt like really came to, I mean, I was dragging those sacks for many, many years. I can really imagine that now you said that actually. I feel a bit silly that I didn't see it that way around because to me I'm just thinking you're so talented and you've had so many, you know, it's one thing to have something that people might not, but you've had so many songs you can just say that, yeah, that's part of my work. How wonderful.

But the idea of walking into things with this sort of expectation, I didn't really think about it that way around. And that makes total sense, but that's really tough. Yeah, I don't think anyone ever realised the weight or the impact of what they were saying. So I don't hold... Yeah, it's well intentioned, but for you, all you're hearing is, we're expecting you to deliver this and then that thing of them just sort of listening out, have we bottled

the rainbow? That's actually... Yeah, and you stop becoming human as well. You know, you have become a machine which is somebody is, you know, pressing a button and it's expected to operate. That's awful. And when you say it, I'm like, of course. And that's lonely as well, because all those ideas are coming from you and your... I think as well when things have... You know, you talked about the rebellions, like the pushing of the edges, but when things have gone very well, sometimes people are nervous about, you know, the necessary

dialogue of pushback, which actually can really spark the next bit. So you are reliant on yourself, not only to come up with ideas, but also to self edit them, because other people might be like, well, I'm not going to say anything, you know, you're just going to go great, and more great, and great again.

It definitely creatively took me into a place where I was, I could not stop editing. I just couldn't stop and that's why I got to the point where I would write another song over the same piece of music. Because even when something was finished and everybody else was like, wow I love it, I would only ever listen to my own neurosis. Yeah, not good enough, needs to be better, what else could I do? Well it can never be right. It can never be. Well that is true.

That's the hardest thing I think. Sometimes it's being able to let go of things, knowing that it's good enough rather than ... There's infinite options. It's so hard to let go, so hard and that's the that's I think that's one of the reasons why I could not enjoy a song when it had been a hit because I just could not let go. I just could not let go. I would just, I would keep on raking through all of these details and I would still be obsessed about was that the right choice and if only, you know?

Wow. And it stopped me from enjoying it because I was always, I was on, I was always on the nothing will ever be perfect train. Yeah. Yeah, and that's actually extraordinary because I think some people could have one experience of their success and then she'd be quite happy to dine out on that for ages. And then for you, you're like, that's not how this is working for me. I want to just, like you said, the addiction of trying to get it all to just tessellate, just everything like I feel that's done but which is completely unobtainable.

So that's, no wonder, I mean it sounds without being too twee, it sounds like having Sebi to go home to and that clock off that was work now, that would actually have given you, saving you from a lot of that. Solace. Solace. That's powerful. No wonder it's so impactful. That's huge. And how wonderful you were able to recognize it actually, because you could have easily been quite lost in the headspace of that and not put things down and not have the cutoff. Yeah, I'm lucky I've always been aware of what's going on. And I've always been able to rationalize about my own, what's going on in my head. Yeah, that is a really big life partner, if you like.

Because it's a skill, but it's more that it's actually a friend that you have with yourself, of just keeping a little bit of a check. Am I okay? What's going on with me? This is getting a bit unhealthy. I think I'm always going to be on that... I kind of see it as I will never be okay,

but I'm going to keep working to try to get as close as I can to okay or perfect, and I feel that that is what I have to live with. You know. And keep finding the fun as well. I think if you can find the fun with things. Oh do you know I think laughing is just so important and also you know talk about solace. I mean I would not have been able to endure decades of this being musician and writing if I had not made really good choices with the people I was working with. Yeah, that's vital, isn't it? Producers that really understand you, they trust you, and there's so much that you gain from that support and it enables you to really

be as free creatively as you can be. And also laughing. I love laughing in the studio and I love, I think that's what I tend to, when I look back on my sessions with my favorite producers, I remember how we laughed, how we wrote silly things in between the serious things. Yeah. You know, just, and we still remember those silly things decades later. That is absolutely what it's all about. They'll never be heard. They'll never be heard. silly things, decades later. That is absolutely what it's all about.

They'll never be heard. No, but that is literally what it's all about, the silly bits and that, cause I think actually then I've worked with people, I'm sure we both have, who are very serious about the business of pop music. And you're like, this is totally missing the point for me. It's not supposed to be serious.

If we're not, if it's not unlocking something fun, I feel like we've kind of misfired a little bit really. And... Oh, and every day of your life is really valuable. Like, you deserve to have fun every day of your life. Yeah. And you have to like find fun and, you know, create fun. But I feel that every day should be fun.

Yeah, and also ultimately we're playing aren't we? I mean you know exactly it's not it's not like a coincidence that the first thing I want to talk to you about was the idea of when it started and you're like oh when I was five you know that's that's where it starts that's like what you're pleasing. Yeah I would have found it very difficult to survive for this long if I had been working with straight-faced, serious producers and co-writers. Down with that.

Well, I felt like we could talk about this all day, but I'm conscious of the time, and so I feel like the last thing I wanted to talk to you about is kind of like... I'm really impressed you don't even have any cue notes or anything. No, but we're having a chat aren't we? And also it makes me really listen to you because if I don't have... I would probably have some if it was me. I mean I basically I could I look over everything and then I'll be like, these things are key. But then, the first interview I did for the podcast, I did have some notes and I'd put them under my leg on the seat.

And then when you're talking, you realize, I can't now be like, oh, sorry, let me just stop listening to you properly and read something. It totally breaks the flow. Plus, I feel like I listen much better if I don't have anything else. And also if your legs start sweating and the inks all started running. That's a song. Yeah, the question's all sort of tattooed on me by the end. I think the first... Yeah, before, when I first worked with you, I think it was probably around Catch You.

Was that the first thing we did? Or have we done something before that? And then, I don't know if I ever told you this, but then I had a thing where I'd written a song, I'd done some topline on a backing track that Calvin Harris had given me, and I hadn't finished it and you very sweetly were like, well come around to mine, I've got an hour in the morning, you can come over. And I remember sitting in your kitchen and I was like, you know, it's the first time I've ever done anything

with you like that, songwriting together from something and I could hear the clock on your wall and I was like, all I have to do is come up with a line that rhymes with the night and I'm sorry Cathy and I can't think of a single thing, my mind was so blank. It was excruciating. So I'm sorry if I seemed really... We should have just gone for the stride. That would have done. But in a professional sense, the one thing that came up again and again is after...

I remember where I was when I first heard Can't Get You Out of My Head on the radio. And then it became this thing of like, oh it was for you first and people would say to me oh yeah you turned it down and I went to my label and I had an A&R man called Simon Gavin and I said to him people keep saying to me that we turned this song down but the first time I heard it was on the radio and he said oh no no it got offered to S Club 7 and I was like oh okay and then I remember talking to you about it you were no, we did write it. Yeah, no, we did.

I mean, the course was like, look, who would want to own up to that? That's what I think. He's just lying to my face. Yeah. I can't say who it was, but I do know that for sure. For what it's worth, I don't think I would have done it as well as Kylie. I think it's her song. But this is what I'm talking about where, you know, like...

It's really devastating when you say, yeah, no, we did write a few. I was like, oh, someone's been lying to me all this time. Sorry. Well, I mean, you know, like, what can I say? But that's a great example of, look, things fall into place where they're meant to. 100%. When they're meant to. I've got fellow songwriters who I remember one of them saying to me, I was supposed to have a session with Enrique Iglesias and then at the last

minute I had to cancel because of a bunion being really painful or something. I don't think it was that. But my mind. So, and then that day, you know, he wrote a big smash hit and she was originally scheduled to be in that session. But I just so, look, you're in the right place at the right time. And I really believe that yeah and it also it gives you closure you know when things don't work out like I did some sessions with the Spice Girls you know like before they even you know became the

mega stars that they did well you've got the beast I don't want to be. Yes, I did. But like, that's not what I wanted, Sophie, is it? And so you can stop yourself going crazy. You can find some closure and appease situation by just remembering things happen when they're meant to and you know, like I'm sure they would have, other people would have liked some of my hits, but they were, you know, like they happened when they were meant to. I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. I really, I completely agree with you. And also,

I think with the specifics of that song, I feel like part of the reason it was so impactful, and I really loved this about it with Can't Get Out Of My Head is that when Kylie sang it, she was a woman with experience and I felt it was really, it gave extra potency to have a woman singing, I can't get you out of my head, it's all I think about. Way more than I would be able to have imbued and I think, I love all those, the storytelling for me is everything, it has to all, all the strands have to come together and that's, that is the magic. That goes back again to the thing I was saying about the po-face pop writing. If it was just as simple as the equation and that equaled an outcome, how bloody boring would that be? Like,

it would be like so dull. I'm so glad that's not how it works. Well, that's the exciting thing about AI. Maybe it will shoot itself because I believe that you can analyze music as much as you want and you can create softwares which are going to emulate, but they're only ever going to be a substitute. So that's my own belief. I agree with you. But also can I just say, you know, with people like you and Kylie, it takes so, I know what it takes to survive in the business. And I have so much respect for my fellow females who have endured, whether it's two years, five years,

10 years, 15 years, 20 years, whatever it may be. Because it really does take a lot of resolve. And it really, you know, it was a man's world. And I think we've really changed things. And I really think that we, as a collective, should be proud of what we've achieved. Now cheers to that. I couldn't agree more.

Yeah, and the more... We've really left a legacy that is exciting for the next generation and the next generation. Yeah, I love that feeling. I love that feeling of like the sisterhood of it too. Yeah, and it's much more accessible now and So yeah, we I think we should feel good about that. I do feel good about that. Yeah Well, um, we should I think this is I said I could keep talking to you, but thank you so much

I've loved having such a proper conversation about about your relationship with what you do and Now I think we should finish up the recording and then I think we should both text our 2004 babies and see which one of our sons gets back to us first. It's going to be yours. I reckon it's going to be yours.

Mine's probably not even awake. It's lunchtime. Well, thank you. And I've been really lovely speaking to you. You too, Kathy. Thank you. What a gorgeous chat with Cathy. And I love that we finished by talking about, yeah, thinking about legacy and passing on to other women.

I mean, Cathy's such a supporter of female artists and that will continue with her career within the music industry. But it's nice to look how far we've come, and obviously it's nice because she's inspired me, and now I'm thinking about younger artists too. It's kind of a natural wheel as it turns. Yeah, thank you so much to her for her generosity.

Thank you to you for listening. It's funny actually, after we finished recording, I took Kathy over the road. We've got Richard and I have invested in a little coffee place actually, very narrow house which is really fun. And it's called Four Leaf, if you ever find yourself Chiswick way, which is in Ternham Green. And so I took Kathy over there and as we were walking towards the coffee place I told her oh my album is called Perryman at Pop and she just went hmm that's funny. I like to think internally she was actually finding it more amusing

I suppose yeah it is that's funny but it's actually women like her that have given me the confidence to be the kind of artist I am now. It's funny isn't it? I think when I was younger I didn't really think about it in the same way, but as you get older you become so much more appreciative of all those strands. Anyway, it's an apt thought to fill my head as I get out my makeup for tonight. What colour glitter shall I go for? I've had blue, I've had pink, I've had green, I've had gold. Oh, you know what, should I do silver? Let me think I'm wearing... Yeah, I'm going to do silver tonight. Thank you for your input,

if that's what you were thinking. If you were thinking silver, I heard you. Yeah, it's been so fun doing these shows. I do love what I do very much. I also every night find out some fun facts to reel off on stage about where I found myself. So let's see after I stop talking to you I'm going to look up some fun facts. Wish me luck although obviously with Manchester there'll be loads but the thing is because I've played a lot of times I have to try and find things a little bit more unusual. So let's see. I think the weirdest, I don't know if I told you this last week, maybe I did.

The weirdest is when I was in Glasgow and I was playing a venue called The Armadillo, so I looked up facts about armadillos as in the animal. I don't know if the crowd knew what to make of that. So I subject tonight's crowd to something similar. I suppose it doesn't really work. There is no animal called an O2 Apollo. Anyway, thank you very much for lending me your ears. Thank you to Cathy for your time.

Thank you to Claire Jones for producing, to Richard for editing, Ella May for the beautiful artwork. And if I could just take a minute to say congratulations to my sister because I came in I came in auntie this week my niece was born since I last spoke to you so that is gorgeous happy news in our family new baby obviously at some point I have to get Martha on the podcast that'd be fun my sister yay I'll give her a little minute to get stuff all done and then I'll be like right how you finding it sis but she's gonna

take to like a duck to water she's been such a gorgeous auntie to my boys so now I have to be as good an auntie as she has been she's really yeah shown the way anyway I'm waffling on and time is short I've got to get ready. Thank you very much to you for your time and I will be here next week with that episode. Lots of love, take care. I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie