Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 158: Ranvir Singh

Episode Date: June 16, 2025

Ranvir Singh is a TV news presenter on Good Morning Britain, who I met on the set of ‘Lorraine’ about a year ago - and I’ve been wanting to talk to her in more depth ever since.Ranvir is a single parent to her 13 year old son Tushaan.She grew up in a very religious Sikh household, having lost her Dad when she was only 9. She was the first girl in her family to go to University, and despite pressure to get married as soon as she left Uni, her laser beam focus on her career path remained.Ranvir and I shed some tears as she described the few minutes she would need to take on the driveway after work, before putting her key in the door. And towards the end of our chat, she shared some very emotional advice for any listener who feels themselves overwhelmed, and in that same position now.Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexter and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates. Hello Think I'm slightly in trouble actually with Richard. Maybe not but it is Sunday evening at 7 o'clock and this is the second week running when I've been really late

with talking to you in time for him to The podcast edit and he's really kind and lets me Do it really late, but this is a bit too late and it's father's day so I definitely feel a little bit of a numpty and um Richard if you're listening I'm sorry uh it's because we finished the tour on Thursday I got up really early on Friday morning to do school stuff was so tired like criminally tired was so tired, like criminally tired, and then did another early start yesterday with Saturday Kitchen. I know these are all excuses, aren't they?

I should definitely have spoken to you earlier. Anyway, never mind all that. Oh, God, it's boiling in here. Our house is really stuffy, so I'm walking around. The kids have left things on that they shouldn't. I hope you're good. The UK tour has finished. It finished on Thursday night at the Royal Albert Hall. Biggest gig of my life, biggest solo gig of my life. Pretty cool actually, really cool, very beautiful and

I did an amazing job of actually taking it in and I say that because I really do feel like I can remember the whole gig. Little screenshots in my head, little images I should say, screenshots sorry, little images of all the people filling the room and moments where I caught people's eyes or I could see people high high up dancing. It was just really good fun. My band, my crew did a great job. It was a lovely, lovely tour. So if you were any part of that tour, thank you very much. Europe, I'm coming for you. I'll be there September, October. I've also got a London gig at Coco on the 8th of September, if anyone fancies that. I'm going to be doing the whole album. And what else has been going on? Just

been getting back into family life. My 16 year old's nearly finished his GCSEs. Yeah, kind of bombing our way through this term. Everything is fine. It's going to feel good when kids finish his GCSEs. He's got his last one tomorrow. It's quite tense. I didn't really have it with my eldest because of lockdown. It kind of was a bit of an unusual shape. So I've really experienced the whole exam thing properly this time around. He's handled it well and if you have any person in your household who's going through the same, I send you love. Right, this week's guest. So I've been very fortunate with this podcast.

I love every conversation I have, but I have to say I do think the chat have with Ranvir really will always stay in my mind as one of my favorites. Just because when I started this podcast I really always loved the fact that we have such proper conversations. It's such a privilege to you know press record, close up the doors, and just have a proper long conversation with someone. And I just have so much time and respect for Ranvir, and she articulates herself so well. And she has handled so much. She is a TV news presenter on Good Morning Britain,

and I've met her so many times over the years. And she's also a single parent to her 13 many times over the years. And she's also a single parent to a 13-year-old son. And she was just very open, very candid, but very, what's the word? I suppose very clear in her thoughts about how it felt to become a mum, how she felt about her work around that time,

clear about narrating all that she'd been through, even though it had clearly been so, so much for so long. Yeah, it's a lovely conversation, and it was pretty emotional, actually, and I do feel, you know know it's such a privilege to have conversations like that with people and I just yeah I just felt very special to talk about it all and yeah I did cry quite a lot actually but it's kind of a nice feeling because it's solidarity. It's being allowed into someone's world for a minute, empathizing.

And look, it's familiar tales in some ways, you know, all the sacrifices we all make for our kids and, you know, that sense of pushing forward even when you're feeling like so depleted. But I think with Ranvir, I just I don't know it just got me it did anyway I will leave you with our chat Richard sorry again for taking so long and I will see you on the other side Hello Ranvir, how are you? I'm really good it's, so nice to be here because we've been talking about this about probably about a year ago we saw each other somewhere. Well, I remember seeing you on set actually Lorraine and it was in the gap and we had

a very quick chat in the break leading up to when I'd be chatting and we immediately crammed that gap with lots of chat about the kids and what been happening with things and I was thinking oh there's more to uncover. But also I think that those little conversations for me are like my therapy even if it's only in those tiny bits I really need all of those little moments just exchanging the shorthand of... And the reality. You know, sometimes you just need a bit of the reality, don't you? That's what I love about doing what I do, which is basically what you're doing now, the interviewing bit, which is weird for me. But I always love the pre-chat, the little... because you just

find a little bit out and you're like, ah, because, you you know we've had like Anne-Marie you know the pop star as you know she came in a couple of years ago and I said you're all right I said you see you seem a bit tired this is before we went on air she was like I'm really tired at the moment I'm you know I'm struggling a bit here and there was just a feeling in the air and that wasn't why she was on she was on to promote something that she's on about but she's a very sort of down to earth it's got an open book in lots of ways But she's a very sort of down to earth, it's got an open book in lots of ways, I thought. And I just sort of gently broached, and we came on out and I just went,

it's a bit tiring, isn't it? You're sort of a bit tired this morning. And then we had a completely different conversation in which she told me about Ed Sheeran talking to her and giving her some help. This is around COVID time mentally and all this, and it made it into the independent and all and it started off all these conversations about mental health and what it was and it just came from a completely natural, organic side chat.

Yeah. Which was nothing to do which, you know, that we were there to really talk about but it became a really real conversation and I think that's obviously resonates with what you enjoy the most. Definitely, 100%. And I think also, thinking about your job, you've got that quick turnaround of people and they come into the studio, there's lots happening, but you've got to try and create that little space that makes you, it's just the two of us and we're just having a chat. And I was thinking that's quite maternal of you actually, as well, to pick up on that with her, just in that tiny moment.

Yeah, well you notice sometimes if people, well, there is a sort of performance element, isn't there? For all of us. Yeah. You know, not just performing on stage as you do, that is obviously the Uber end of performance, isn't it? But even when you're doing something quite natural, like doing the interviews like I do,

on television, on live television, there is still an element of we're here to do a job. So, you know, somebody's here to promote a book or they're here to talk about their show or whatever it might be or an issue. But then there is the real person who comes in just before, you know, as the PA is counting down to the moment you're going live, you feel something in the air and you and I think it sometimes it's

not the right thing to do because maybe somebody's too sensitive or yeah you can see if that's yes exactly, not a safe area, yeah but I think I've always enjoyed getting under the skin of people and that's my elixir. And like you said, I often find that it's therapeutic for me. I find that really relatable because I'm a mess. You know, sometimes, a lot of the time, you're not feeling imposter syndrome, you have all sorts of things going on in your head. It also brings out humanity of what people are going through. I think that discovering what unites us is always very good for everything, isn't it?

Yeah, and I always find it really, I find it's like a real responsibility to not portray success as a one-dimensional, singular platformed achievement. Like you've achieved it. Because I think that that's really detrimental, particularly in this day and age, to people watching. Because I think success can feel so ephemeral, so like, can I ever get there? Will it be me?

Will I ever be that good? Can I, you know, and it seems so, but it's not because we've all feel like when we're reaching for something, aren't we? All of us. And I'm always very careful, I feel, to not represent, you know, a guest's success as something that is this perfect parcel.

Because I think that's quite alienating. It's aspirational, but it's also, also you've got to hear about, you know, when they were 18 living in a bed set and thought they'd never make it because that is, that is the reality for most people before they make it, you know, or whatever. So yeah, I'm always very mindful of that actually. Well I suppose as well, I wonder if that's partly as well, as we get older, the goals we've set ourselves, you're sort of always in the process of the doing and the thinking of the next bit and the next bit and the next bit. And now, as I can see, you know, my 50s, sort of in my vision a bit on the horizon, I've become much better at just actually enjoying the moment and not always

thinking, but where does this lead? It's quite a hard habit to break, because I think if you've always been pushing, pushing, you're used to the little drive, but I think just actually enjoying stuff and I wonder with you, because as I've been, you know, learning more and more about your life, there's been so much drive, so much. And I mean, I was thinking even when you were younger, was there anyone in your family that was going into

any of the areas that you ended up working in? My God, no, no. Yeah, but see, that in itself is extraordinary, isn't it? No, I mean, I don't think my family really understood at all what on earth this thing was that I was doing, because all it meant to my mum was that I would be coming home sometimes at 10 o'clock at night, you know, from local radio, because the shifts were such, you started at two

in the afternoon, you finished at 10. She's like, what do you mean? You know, I'm a young Indian girl, you know, culturally, that was completely not okay. You know, it was a terribly difficult thing for my mom to get her head round and she didn't really. She struggled with it. She thought it felt wrong. Well, why don't you just be a teacher then you can be home at five, like then you have the holidays. Like that's what do that. You shouldn't be out. I don't want you. Why are you there? You know, and it was quite so it took quite a lot of I suppose. A bit of rebelliousness from me to do it, I think. I was careful what to say there.

But there was a bit of rebelliousness. Even going to university, I, when I was 18, just said, I was like, I'm just going to, not just, I'm going to go and work in a bank, because my older sister, who's nine years older than me, had done that. And I was like, that's what I'm going to do. I'm not going to go to, I completely cut myself off from it.

I was just like, I'm just going to, at 18, do my, did my, I was just going to go and work in a bank, that's what I'm going going to go to, I completely cut myself off from it. I was like, I'm just going to do my, I did my, I was just going to go and work in a bank. That's what I'm going to do. And I knew that my mum at that time, it was during that time when all universities were opening up, you know, and it was the sort of every, it was open to everybody. It wasn't, you know, you could get a grant, you could go. And my mum's whole thing, which was quite ironic was was, I don't want people to think we can't afford for you to go to university, so you're going to have to go. She was like, what will the neighbours say?

What will the community say? Because we were a single parent family. So she was desperate to keep up face. She wanted, she didn't want people to think that she needed me to earn at 18, which kind of she did. We did. Yeah, so that's why I ended up going to university, but one of the things that she wanted was for me to come home, to live at home and go to university.

So I sort of dug my heels in and I was like, no, if I'm going to go, I need to go. And so my compromise was that I went to Lancaster University. I lived in Preston, so it was 20 minutes up the road. I went to university every Monday morning and I came home every Friday. And my friends would be like, that's insane. Like you're missing out on the weekends and you know, you're missing out on,

but I was like like you have no idea What it took for me to get even this like yeah to be you know 20 minutes up the road to be able to live away from home Monday to Friday Is a massive achievement for me because my sister didn't go to university. You're the youngest. I'm the youngest. Yeah by quite a long way, you know So generationally like enormous things have changed you know you have children of all different ages and it is different isn't it you it's difficult to treat all your children the same when there are big age gaps because society moves and thinking changes and

So I think there's was some envy, you know from both of my sisters that I got to go to university Because it was a symbol of enormous freedom. But also, I suppose, by going home, you're being very respectful as well to your mum and to the family dynamic of what it meant that you were doing it. Yeah, but I'll tell you what it was, Sophie. I mean, the funniest thing was, I don't often say this, but actually, you know, we went to the Sikh temple every Sunday. And so, I, you know, honest,

I shouldn't say this, it's actually really funny. I am old enough to say this now. You know when you still feel like a kid who's going to like confess to something you shouldn't confess, but I'm like 47, so I need to get over this now. But I would like, I would like sit in the temple on a Sunday, and I'd just literally be sitting there cross-legged and I'd go, dear God, please forgive me for all the naughty things I did during the week and for the boys and I'm really sorry and all of this and I'd just sit there and I'd feel incredibly guilty because I was doing things that my mum would never have wanted me to do and all the partying

and all this. Knowing full well that when I went back on Monday I'd just do it all again. It was a bit like being Catholic, you know, I'd go and confess internally every Sunday and I'm such a bad seeker. I did that for three years, you know, it never changed. So it's just quite funny. So for me it was an enormously positive and brave compromise, you know, and it started the route of, well, in many ways, I knew in my head, I was like, at 18, I was like, if I go to uni... And this is my fear, if I go to university, I will be out of the box and I will never be able to get back in the box again. And you have to be in the box to sustain family life.

If you're a young Indian woman, you have to stay in the box. And that was my experience, that was experience of both of my sisters, that's experience of lots of Indian women of my generation. You have to stay in the box. And that was my experience, that was experience of both of my sisters, that's experience of lots of Indian women of my generation, you have to stay in the box. But I, and I knew myself well enough to know that if I, if I get out of the box, it's going to be almost impossible for me to get back in. And so actually, my career came out of just being outside of the box. I was like, I can't be, I don't want to be a lawyer. I thought about it, you know, don't want to be a lawyer, don't want to be a teacher, don't want to be an accountant, I'm rubbish with numbers.

So as you say, once you're just checking, I understand that right, that feeling. So once you'd begun that path and you're no longer in that familiar, the world that your mum would be able to articulate, that she would share with her neighbours, with the people that she thought would... The safe space. The safe space. As soon as it went outside those parameters, that's it. I knew. I knew, yeah. It's kind of giving me chills, because that's a big thing to be thinking, and I have not experienced that. I didn't have to think like that.

Yeah. I totally resonate with the little thing of rebellion, that feels me too, but having, I've been very closeted that all my life experiences pretty much have been, I've been able to slightly get them to be understood a bit by my family members and I haven't had it where they'd say sorry, that doesn't compute. Why are you getting home so late again? That's a big deal. Yeah, it sort of gives me the chills now actually thinking about it. Because I don't think I've realized possibly how self-aware I was at 18. But I think that when you are raised in that way, I come from a very religious family.

My mom's incredibly religious. And religion and culture are very, very tightly intertwined. So they become the same thing. So in a sense that if you, if you, if you step out in one way, you know, you're rejecting all of it, you know, it's seen it, it's a wholesale thing. You can't reject one part of the culture without rejecting the religion, without rejecting your family. Like it all comes as one big package. See what I mean?

And so it is a really big, and obviously I wasn't rejecting them and I wasn't rejecting my culture, but it was this thing of I just, I knew that there was a part of me that would be released. And that's why you'd go to the temple and say sorry about it and then do it again on Monday. And you know what, if anybody's listening to this who lives up north or who knows that part of the world,

I was always in the Carlton Club every Tuesday, it was R&B night, I was out every Thursday night, I'd be the one going, is anyone around? Because I was just like, I've got these two windows. I can't wait till Saturday because I'm not here, you know. I get it. I mean, yeah, I would have been going to those clubs too. Yeah, of course. So if we fast forward a little bit, if you've got this fire in your belly

and you're on this course and there's this sort of little whip in your head pushing you towards the next bit and you're working your way through regional and what, how does it, did you always think I would like to also be a mum oh yes i it's a good question um because we're talking you know in my mind i've gone straight back to being um at uni you know so in my head then i'm thinking oh gosh i feel like i'm there

Not at uni, not until I had my career path, in the very early days, my laser beam focused. So once I'd corrected the laser beam, I knew. Because the reason I know that is because as soon as you're out of university, there's a pressure to get married. Although I was, obviously. I'm talking from my generation. I think it's very different now. As soon as you're out of university, there's a pressure to get married Although was obviously I'm talking, you know from my generation. I think it's very different now. There certainly was for me and so then there's this whole host of You know moms talking to other moms and trying to find out if there are any available boys and what they're you know photographs and Details it's almost like this is all through your 20s. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, through my early 20s. It's just this thing.

And my sisters would get involved and it'd be like, how about this person, how about this person? He's really clever, look at this picture. And I just remember wanting to reject it all. I was just like, I just couldn't find it in myself. I was like, I don't want this. And that again was very rebellious really it was seen as quite a sort of

It's not the thing to do yeah, you know, you've got a show willing, you know, you've got to do it, you know So I really so then of course At that stage being a mom in your early 20s wasn't a thing, but certainly It came rushing in, you know, probably about 30, I think. I'm trying to think very real moment when I sort of gave myself six months, wasn't it? It seemed really weird. I remember just standing in my flat in Manchester that I had at the time and I just thought, well, this isn't going to happen, is it? So, right, well, I'm going to freeze my eggs or I'm going to do this. I'm going to do it on my own. Like, I really was sure, because there was somebody at work who had done it, you know,

the idea of surrogacy or freezing your eggs or getting a sperm down, all of that sort of stuff had crossed my mind. And I was like, so that's how I knew that this wasn't an optional extra in my life, were the circumstances right, it was a thing that became totally integral to how I saw my future actually. It's quite scary really. Well it's just a reason I was thinking about as well because I think if you're talking about all these, you know, this how completely driven you are but also how you felt like you'd kind of shaken off a lot of expectations it's quite a big thing to then bring motherhood into it when you've got this, when your ambition has become

such a reliable force in you, giving you the next step. Yeah, you're so, it's reliable, isn't it? It always, that's exactly right. And I, but I, like, my friend said to me, when I was pregnant, she said to me, Ranvir, she said, it's like waking up every morning and somebody's left a surprise bar of Cadbury's dairy milk for you, and you can't believe your luck. She was like, that's about having a baby. She was like, that's what it should be. So incredulous. Yeah. She was just like, it's like waking up and finding somebody's left you this like...

There are definitely days where the chocolate would be preferable. Maybe not five or six bottles of chocolate, but just the one, you know. Just some days. Just some days. Give me the chocolate. But I've always remembered that. And I always just thought that's a a really that's a really beautiful way to sort of feel about it yeah and an excitement and an excitement and I think that because I wasn't always sure that it happened for me even now 12 years later I do look at him and I just go I can't I can't believe my luck I can't believe it happened there

he is yeah There he is. Yeah, there he is. And like, as he knows, and he knows so much about me, because, you know, we've been on our own for a very, just the two of us from the very beginning, you know, he says, what would have happened if you hadn't had a baby? Like, he asks me, and I say, well,

and I know this for a fact, I would have moved abroad, I would have, I would have moved abroad, I would have lived somewhere else, I would have gone to the Washington Bureau, I would have, you know, not in a purely career sense, but I just think I would have found it. And I say this with some trepidation, I would have found it incredibly difficult, I think, to be around friends and family.

Yeah. And I feel that very keenly for friends who have had difficulty and continue to have difficulty, and I've got some. And I'm always very keen to, I'm very, very proud of my friends and those women in the public domain now who are really, really vocal about the life, how it is so fulfilling without children. And I'm really a massive fan of those women who speak so powerfully about the fact that, you know, motherhood is not the only way to fulfill your life. Because I always see there's a parallel version of me who would have been her, and I want her to survive,

and I want her to feel great about being alive, and I want her to feel the version of me that is sliding doors. You know, sliding doors having a baby, it could have happened, it might not have happened. So I feel like a huge, sort of weird, I'm a weird sort of huge advocate of people being really clear

to women in this day and age that actually there are many many many ways you can change culture in your workplace. You can actually do more sometimes if you don't have children to affect change in the world because you've got time and you can... There's also, I've seen the most maternal friends of mine don't have their own children. Isn't that amazing? And so I think, you know, if you're... There's other ways you can bring some of the best thing qualities... Absolutely.

...of mothering without being a biological mother. Absolutely. I'm sensitive to that too. So I, like you, I've got lots of girlfriends where they... Now that, you know, I'm nearly 46 of girlfriends where they, now that, you know, I'm nearly 46 and it's like, okay, well that's, I'll likely have that. Yes. But they, there's so many ways that they can be involved in young people's lives or changing

things or legacy or relationships, all these things, all of this is fulfilling. Yes. So I'm careful with that because even though with the podcast, it is a bit of a prerequisite that you've brought someone up or you're bringing someone up, but I don't want to make it seem like it's a club that if you're not part of it, that there's something you're being excluded from. But I do, I'm aware, I've got one girlfriend actually,

she's now in her 50s, and she listens to the podcast. And I think for some women, it might be a curiosity, or some people, a curiosity, what are the conversations that I might have been having if that had been my life? You know, because it was all there to explore, isn't it? It is, and actually, you know, it's really interesting because when I talk to my girlfriends about it, I say, you know, the thing that got me through,

obviously I was a single mom, so that's a completely different aspect of raising a baby and stuff like that. It's sort of very difficult, obviously, at times. But I would say to people, and I say it to myself really, is that you have to almost crave it, because when things are hard, you have to remember why you wanted this.

And I just say, I've got friends who would say, I would like children, I would have liked children, but I never met someone. And I can say categorically that I was in the other camp that regardless of whether I'd met someone or not I was gonna have kids right so that to me I'm aware that my drive was really really like fundamental and really strong that this was something I wanted to experience in my life yeah but I'm aware that actually I think that you have to crave it because when it's hard you know, I think it's

And I say this as the child of somebody Of a mom who wasn't always enormously maternal that it can be hard to be on the receiving end of somebody who may be Had other ambitions and maybe having a child didn't fulfill those ambitions. So I think to be on the receiving end as a child of those feelings can be really difficult and I would never ever wish that upon someone to have that feeling with their own parents.

So I wouldn't want to be that, do you see what I'm saying here? It's not just about you, it's about the child's experience of being mothered. God, I suppose that's the ultimate in that saying about, you know, to really love someone you have to love yourself, isn't it? It's about your resolve and what you're looking for and what you think your children are going to bring you

that's going to be a missing piece, you know? Yes, and I think that what I'm really... I feel like progress truly is in this area that we're talking about, about the fact that having kids isn't just the thing you do. You know, it was always just that you get married, you have kids. It's the next logical, and I'm using quotation marks, it's the next logical step. And I'm so relieved and I hope it remains the way that it doesn't remain quote the logical step. Mm. Because I think that that hems some women and some fathers into having children when

they didn't necessarily feel like it was something they craved, it was something that you just did. And I see that a lot and I really make that makes me sad. Yeah, because It makes me sad. Yeah, because it makes me sad You need to learn you have to be willing to Really put in the the framework of how to be the best parent you can be. Yeah, and if you're just doing it as a This thing I do then you're probably going to pass down some generational

Right, absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah, And I was thinking as well, I mean, you mentioned being a single mother from the beginning, which is a really profound way to enter motherhood. But also if you're in a relationship, when I got together with Richard, we'd only been going out for six weeks when we found out we were having a baby, which was a bit of a, okay, you know. What's your surname? Exactly. I hadn't even met his parents.

Yeah. but okay, you know. What's your surname? Exactly, I hadn't even met his parents. And I said to my mum, oh, I'm pregnant. And she said, it might not be the right man, it might not be the right time, but it's the right baby. I feel like maybe that advice, that could have been shared with you too. 100%. And then if you're thinking you have this drive,

I want motherhood, I would like that to be part of what I'm doing. It's always going to be seismic to have a baby. But it's probably even more seismic if it's part of the end chapter of a relationship that you'll know is closing and then it's like, oh my word, here we start this whole new journey with this person, this baby who if if it had been, if we'd moved the calendar 12 months in either direction, it's like completely might not have been a baby at all. Might not have been a baby at all.

That's quite a big deal, isn't it? And I want to talk to you about what was happening when you heard it, because I listened to you talking to Kate Thornton and I could not believe that you had, you'd taken on this job. I mean, wow. Sorry. So you've taken on this job. I mean, wow, sorry. So you'd taken on a job, your relationship is ending, so there's all that stuff that comes with that. You're two months from having a baby,

and then you have the baby, and then by the time he's five weeks, you're at Westfield Shopping Center. No, earlier, three weeks. Two weeks. Two weeks. Shopping for wardrobe. Yeah. Oh my goodness.

With my body like jelly. Just. And your mind, I mean. Yeah. The last thing you're thinking about is clothes, right? Yeah. But this is the thing I suppose, is that as time, well, my, as I realized as it went on,

is that my first love was my, this job, this career, this thing that had happened upon this brilliant thing of being able to broadcast and do news. And I, it sort of, it lit my life up, you know, when I sort of found it, it really was like a light bulb moment for me, you know. And funny enough, I was in the Sikh temple, you know, back in the, when I was in my second year at uni and I was doing English and philosophy and this girl said, you know, what are you going to do? You know, she's an older girl.

I really respected her. I thought she was really cool. And she's like, what are you going to do after uni? I said, oh, I don't know. She's like, oh, my friend works for the BBC. And I literally can, and I remember, it's almost like, ching, like I went, but it had always been this thing that other people do.

It's in the little box, it's in the radio. It's not something that I can do. And all of a sudden it was like, oh my god, I can do that So for me that that excitement feeling was always there and so when it came to having you know to being pregnant and then Sort of essentially being headhunted by ITV when I was about four months pregnant It was like these are the two things that I could only have ever dreamt of happening. They just happened to be happening at the same time. So I get a job on national television to do live news, my first ever national job and I'm having my first baby, it turns out my only baby. And I just thought logically, I'm not thinking very logically,

well, everybody I talked about at breakfast telly says, oh my God, it's so knackering. Oh my God, you're going to be so tired. And everyone talked to about being an EMA, oh my God, it's so knackering. Oh my God, it's so tiring. You'll be a zombie for two years. I go, well, how tired can I be? How tired can one person be?

You know, I just, we just combine it all, you know what I mean? And the thing with it is... You've got to be peak tired. I've got to be peak tired. I'll just go for that. But also the thing is, as you may recognise, is that you think, well, what if this opportunity never comes along? You know, when you're freelance, when you're doing sort of jobs like we do,

it's not like that there's a formal application process or that you go for the next job when it turns up and you see it on your internal newsletter and you go, it's not like that. You're either spotted and you're taken on for something or you're not. It's not something you can actually- I think that's probably fair,

and those things do just, you know, they move on. Yeah, so I was just like, these two things might only ever happen this time around, 2012. This might be the year that these things are only ever come to me. I'm having the baby, this job, I just thought, I can't,

I can't not do it. But also, you know, I had a baby to raise on my own. You know, I had to, I had to nail it. I had to nail it. I had to nail it. Because there's no safety net. No safety net.

I don't come from any money. In fact, you know, I've supported my mum. You know, so it's not, there is nothing if I don't do well. Nothing. Yeah. That's pretty, I mean, I suppose you can look back now and see quite how vulnerable that position is, but at the time, I suppose you can look back now and see quite how vulnerable that position is, but at the time I suppose you were just in the doing and you're, and how, when you look back on it now,

what do you remember of that feeling? What do you remember of that time? Well, interestingly, I remember sitting on the driveway when I would get back with the... I'd come back from work at say 10 o'clock in the morning, you know, the show finished at 9, half 9 or whatever, you'd do the meeting, you'd get home, but I'd get home for half 10 or something. And I would sort of say to the driver of the taxi I'd just say can you just give me two minutes before I get out the car can you just give me two minutes and I just sort of closed my eyes and I'd just be like because I would have been up since three and it's now half ten in the morning and I'd be like right and I just you know in this house

you know the doors just there in this house is this little baby waiting for its mom you know tiny baby at that point you know toddler maybe you know years and I'd go right and I just and I just shake it off whatever this thing is and I thank you thanks thanks very much. Door shut in, pick my bit and that's it. And then you're on the go. And I did that up until, and obviously he's grown up,

but I did that essential, that process, time and time again, five days a week for 10 years. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I mean, obviously he went to school and then things, but you know, things do change. But essentially in those early couple of years before he went to, you know, a nursery and things like that, I would think, aren't I lucky?

That's the only way that I could do this is to say to myself every single day, how lucky am I, how lucky am I, how lucky am I? I have a job I've always wanted and I have the baby I've always wanted. Aren't I lucky, aren't I lucky, aren't I lucky? And that is the only mantra that could, I'm going to cry, it's the only thing that could get me through the tiredness and sometimes the loneliness. It's, I'm so, I'm so lucky. And I still think that I am so lucky.

I am. But I'm, it's funny because I was just listening, as I said to you, I was just listening to the wonderful rugby player, Abby Ward. And in your intro to her, you said her mindset, her positivity is something that's going to blow your socks off, just waiting until you hear it. And that is the thing that hooked me up. I've got to listen to this because it really is about how you frame thoughts. But I can tell you honestly, Sophie, there were flashes of moments when, as a news person, you cover some really dreadful stories, and I'd covered so many dreadful stories, really sad stories.

But I can honestly tell you, you know, there were flashes of moments where I thought, imagine being 19 and lonely in a tower block with a crying baby that you cannot stop crying. Not that, I'm just saying that I, in a moment of deep dark empathy at 1am with a teething baby, I've got a great job, I earn good money, my mum had moved in with me, partly because I couldn't leave her getting old, nor social, it was more to look after her than the other way around, but she was there. I had my sister not so far away. I had a support network and I had

a job I loved. And I'd been, you know, I'd had an education, like all the things that were, I had all the framework really to give me resilience. I think if you don't have that, and I think anybody listening to this will know what that flicker of, I can't do it, that feeling is like, and it gave me a massive insight into how lonely it could be if you don't have support, if you don't have something else in your life.

So I have always felt I am really lucky, you know, I'm really lucky. Yeah. That's really moving, that's really got me. I think I can totally appreciate why that mantra was so essential and yes, but it's also such an insight into all that you were doing, that you were giving yourself a mantra. Yeah. You know, I think that's why I find it. It's like the secret side of things, isn't it? The private side, the thing that you were doing for yourself, just to walk back in through that door.

Because there is that bit where you're like, okay, here we go, here we go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I suppose I'm also thinking about how life can be funny because you do all the all the work that's I mean, it's immense I think to move away from the expectations of your family and the path that's laid and You've obviously done a lot of work to keep this keep this, you know the ties with your sisters and your mum and to never

ties with your sisters and your mum and to never disrespect the choices but also to listen to all the things that mattered to you, to keep the connections. Yeah, I mean, look, it's messy. You know, it has been messy. It's fantastic now. But, you know, I also think that, and I think people resonate with this too, is that, you know, when you step away from things that are expected of you, it dislodges everybody in that ecosystem. It makes everybody feel nervous and makes everybody want to shut that part of you down because, and I've learnt this, is that because you know it, I don't like the word trigger, but it certainly it triggers things in those people about their own unrequited passions, the things that they have pushed down in order to fit in, in order to not upset, in

order to you know keep that conditional love from a parent, from a partner, from a, whatever it might be. And I think that that's why people making different choices makes people feel very angry sometimes, it makes people feel very annoyed with you, it threatens their sense of what was right, what's wrong. Yeah.

But, and it takes, yeah, but I just don't know how else I would have been me. I don't know how else to be, the truth be told. And believe you me, there is so much that I don't talk about. And one of the things is, you know, I always say too much, you know, in terms of, you know, this just sounds silly to you, but in terms of PR, in terms of, you know, I've got somebody who looks after some press for me occasionally, you know, poor George, the girl who does it, she's got her head in her hands here, she's like, why do you say so much? But there's a sort of truth serum in me, but there's so much I can't say. So believe you me, my God, I've tried to get back in the box for the sake of my family. But it leads to enormous rupture for me internally. It never leads to a good

thing for them either. So I think if there's any lesson to learn, and it's really difficult, and it is, you know, is that going your own way is really the only way because in the end You'll end up resenting yourself or resenting others. Yeah, and I've seen too many people in my life Who have become bitter and difficult to be around and as I've grown older, you know, you know, what's wrong with you? Are you so difficult and now I have enormous have enormous empathy for those people because I feel like I would have been you. I know why you are you Because you never ever ever had the chance or the bravery or the courage or the system or the society Yeah, whatever it is timing is everything you never had the chance

to Tap into who you really are. Yeah, and that is T tragic, because you make everybody's life a misery around you, and you have to reconcile yourself with your own misery. Yeah, and actually, especially in your 40s, I feel like that's the time, isn't it? That is the time, because it's funny, isn't it? And blame, you know the blame game. Yes, and the years go by, but when it comes to family dynamics, you go, you are still that kid, it's crazy.

The years go, I mean, sometimes there are things about my family that will do that. And I'll say to Richard, I'm a grown-up, why am I still bothered, so bothered? By these ancient things. Yes, yes. Come on, I'm sure I've had this conversation once or twice before. And I do think it's interesting to talk about bitterness and resentment,

because actually, I think this is the time when you've got to be so careful. Well, for this big of myself, really, mindful of just being okay with all of the messy bits. 100%. And forgiving. Yes. of just being okay with all of the messy bits. A hundred percent. And forgiving. Yes. So you don't keep carrying those bits and you're not angry, oh, that's so, it's just not a good way to carry out the next few decades,

I don't think. No, it's not. Let it go. But it's tricky, you know what, years and years ago, Richard and I, we did a DJ gig, I promise this is going somewhere, over near St Paul's and they put us in a hotel and every once in a while I think one of those glamorous things, I'm in London now but a night in a hotel in London, I'm like that's peak glamour,

I love it. I don't know, it's only happened a handful of times but I really like it. Yeah because they always make you go home presumably. Exactly, so if I'm like oh breakfast in a hotel and then you see London a slightly different way. Like a tourist. Yeah so we walked into St Paul's Cathedral and they happened to be, there was a Vicar giving a sermon, and he told this story, and this time I must have been my early 30s, he's telling a story about the masks people wear and how people, when they get to their 40s, that's when the mask slips and you have to really deal with who you are. And I was like, wow, that's really profound. And the older I've got, the more truth I see.

And that stayed with you for years. It really stayed with me. And so I think this is the bit where whatever you've sustained, whatever you've put in place that's maybe a little dysfunctional, you have to actually You have to face it. go through all those boxes in your head too. Yeah, you have to countenance it for sure. And I definitely think, you know, part of that is mothering actually, because then you're facing parts of yourself and your child, you know, and the interactions there. And you know, and it is that old adage, you hear your mom and yourself as you're telling them off or in the way you're doing

and you go, why am I doing that? I didn't like, you know, that's not how I want to be. So, you know, but also some really good things, you know, you hear yourself doing things that you think, well, that's what that's the way I was and I still believe that. So I think that's okay. But I definitely think that, and that, you know, and a shout out to anybody who is dealing with their own hormones in their mid forties and with a preteen or, you know, my's gonna be 13 this year that's a whole... I mean... It's challenging. Oh my god. I adore my boy but it's also hard because they still got the baby and I can still see the little one in there.

Well of course. But to them that is... Yeah, exactly. The next chapter started but... Yeah and also in yourself you know like until you get all your pills and potions and gels in the right order, then you're like, oh, this is horrible. You know, you can't, you don't know yourself anymore, you know, for periods of time. It's true. It's a cruel way it works, isn't it? It is such a cruel thing.

It's like, come on. It is such a, you know, but actually it's quite funny, I should tell you, my son then, I mean we're so open with each other, because we sort of have to be and we're kind of like each other's pocket, we're in each other's pocket really, and last year he quietly went on the internet and he made me two badges. One says, I'm hormonal, tread carefully. And the other one says, Hi, my name is Ranvir, I'm hormonal, leave me alone. And they arrived in the post and he went, I've got you something. I went, what? He went, just open those. He went, don't shout at me. I went, I won't. And I opened them and I just thought it was really lovely. So now literally, I literally put them on

my, you know, and you always know, because it's like my oversized fleece hoodie, you know, like the one that's like, you know, one size fits all. And I just put that on and I mope around the house and he's like, are you all right, mum? Oh, he sounds adorable. He is adorable because he kind of has, well, because I've had to go. And funny, he's got a good sense of humour too. He is funny. So yeah. And actually I posted it on Instagram and loads of my friends

were like, oh my God, can you make me one? I could do with one, you know, just like a little like I'm just feeling a bit tender today You know, yeah, it's not you. It's me That's so sweet, but also I love the fact that Even though I can see you know, wow It's a lot to be a single mother, but it sounds like it's also like the bedrock of your relationship. Yeah, and actually it's really interesting because over the years, you know, in newsrooms here and there whenever I was, you know, traveling abroad and all of that, and I'd spend my time in between work chatting to crew, chatting to the director about their lives. I'd be

like, and you know, you'd find out, oh my god, you're a, your mum was single. Like, oh right, wow, like, what did she do? Because you've turned out great. Like, what is it? What is it? What is it? You know, like, always searching for like, am I missing something? What do I need to do? And you know, one of my directors at ITN said to me, you've got to get him a dog. I said, don't say that. No, don't say that. He's like, you've got to get him a dog. If he's an only child, you've got to get him a dog. I said, don't say that. No, don't say that. He's like, you've got to get him a dog. If he's an only child, you've got to get him a dog. Anyway. Have you done that? I did for his eighth birthday. And now, obviously, you know, I walk the dog.

But he does this. But you know, I just go, do you want me to take your birthday present back? You know, got this lovely cockapoo who's like four and a half. But so I did, you know, I literally did. I bought him a dog for his birthday. I thought he's got to have something. And the more I read about it, apparently that is one of the things that, you know, it's really good for them to have something that's their own, you know, that they bond with as an only child. So, yeah.

Yes, I've always been trying to figure it out from people I admire around me. You know, how did your mom do it? What did they do? What did they do? So it's made you always curious. And if they talk about that, that's the thing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Did it make you see your mom a bit differently too? That she was... your dad died when you were only nine.

Yeah, I think that... I'm sorry we haven't spoken much about that time. No, no, I... That's a big deal to lose a parent when you're so little. I think that... I think that now I understand her more and I've largely, well no, I'd say I've totally reconciled with it because she prayed a lot and that was her solace, but it also was quite isolating because prayer is a very solitary thing. And prayer is done from a prayer book and it's done for hours on end and it's done

daily. And so, you know, my mum would be upstairs in the prayer room, praying, a lot. So I'd be on my own a lot in the house, downstairs. And her other solace, as I realize, was the garden. And that was quite hard because you're on your own a lot and I was never included, you know, and she cooked, so she would cook in the kitchen. So lots of things that she did were on her own for herself. But I think that if you come from a religious family or you have any of that sort of ilk in your family. I think prayer does give enormous comfort to the person doing it. And I think that they think that they are doing the best they can for you in that moment. And I so, I'm very aware that now, whilst I was lonely and alone,

and alone and sort of craving her, you know, craving her to be, want to be with me, I now realize that for her that was all she had left, if you see what I mean, to give me food and prayer, food and prayer, food and prayer. And so, whilst it doesn't sort of change the past, it certainly makes me understand that that was her way of mothering me. That was her way of mothering me. And so, and I heard someone once say that you can't, and this was a big thing for me, as you say about bitterness, I was determined not to be bitter at 40. Because there was something in my mind about, I think I'd seen older women in my family, I thought 40 seemed so old, you know, when I was like 25 and I was thinking, I'm never going to be bitter and spitting tax at everybody

when I'm 40. You know, I said it to someone over the phone. I won't tell you who, I said it to someone over the phone when she was 40. I was like, I'm not going to be like you. I'm not going to be like you. I was a bit like her when I got to 40. I was still quite angry, you know,

I still had quite a lot to deal with. But I thought, I've got to really get underneath the skin of this because otherwise I'm just going to be repeating, repeating, repeating, and I can't do that. So yeah, I realised that we do the best we can. We do the best we can. And it's not always what the child wants at the time, but it is the best that we can do.

But I think you have to learn today, sorry, you have to have some self-reflection as you get older, and you have to be able to face yourself for your own failings. As a mother and maybe as a child, you have to also reconcile that if that person can't self-reflect, you have to be able to let go anyway. Yeah.

You can't wait for them to say sorry. You can't. Because they might never say sorry. Exactly. You've got to find your own way to deal with that, haven't you? Yeah. Yeah. But I hope that my son does that.

I'm hoping that as he grows older, he will find a way to reconcile my parenting, because it isn't perfect. Well, no, but the fact that you've got like even that little thing of the badges shows how he's seeing you. That's actually really lovely. I mean, my 12 year old said to me the other day, are you angry? And I went, no. And he went, oh, just you look angry all the time. Yeah, you get that. I was like, this is just my face now, right? This is just where I found myself.

This is so funny, isn't it? You're so funny. Yeah, it's funny, but it's a little harsh. It's a little harsh. It's also a little harsh when you actually feel all right on that day. Exactly, I thought I looked quite peaceful. Actually, wasn't angry? I thought I looked quite peaceful.

Wasn't I angry? I thought I was being really nice. Just wander around. I was just more neutral, really. Yeah, exactly. Isn't that funny? Oh, bless him. This conversation has been really lovely. I knew we'd have a good conversation. So, for... I set you free. All embark on hour two.

I was just thinking it'd be nice to end Maybe firstly, it feels a little bit like All the conversation we've been having have also led you to being a bit more open about that early those chapters Yeah, and and just I think it's at the time It can sometimes feel like you don't want to let a chink in your armor with work You know don't don't think I can't do the job because I've also had a teething baby at one And I don't think I can't be a present mother because I've been doing the job and now you can say oh My god, I was doing all of that for a decade. Yeah

Totally right. It's also partly for me is that I've been learning with some help, you know, to release some of The Shame, which is a whole other to not, I didn't realise how much I was labelling all of that period of time as something embarrassing and shameful and instead of brave and beautiful and powerful and yeah, what an achievement. Like totally didn't see it as an achievement, until quite recently really, until I've been sort of seeking some help to sort of, as you say, I slowed down a bit with work in the last couple of years,

sort of still there doing my job, but I just sort of decided I didn't want to travel away as much and things like that. And what happened was that in those empty spaces, well, it's just empty. There's just all this space and I started to go, oh, what am I doing? It's hard to let go of your voice.

It's hard to, yeah, because if I'm not striving, what am I doing? Yeah. I didn't know myself without striving and without a sense of urgency to do everything. I didn't know who I was anymore without that. And actually what's happened is that I've had to be patient with that space and allow myself to just like be bored

and be a bit more self-reflective and have a breath and all those things I don't really want to do and cry a bit and look back a bit more self-reflective and have a breath and all those things I don't really want to do and cry a bit and look back a bit and then now actually you know it's taken a while but I've you know managed to I think as you say just look at the next few years and think well you know I have to find a new way of dealing with my life, because I've dealt with it in a certain way, I think purely in fight or flight, purely in survival or catastrophe, you know, in the two extremes, you know, it's one or the other, it's one or the other, it's one or the other, you know, always. And now I'm just going, okay, there's a way to accept some things aren't perfect. There's a way to accept that I can be good without having to be knocking out the park every day.

There's a way to just be somewhere that's comfortable, but that's not normal. Being comfortable isn't normal for me, so I'm just having to learn to be comfortable with myself. Yeah, and also just being able to be a little bit more 360 with the people, with everything you're dealing with. Yes, yeah. And actually, I suppose, as I'm learning, not compartmentalize myself too much

and just be like, oh, I'm a whole person. Like, I don't have to be one or the other. I don't have to be a success or a failure. You know, if I'm not successful, then I'm a failure. You know, like, those binary choices aren't actually that healthy in the end. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? You think you're doing something for yourself

when you're putting all that fire under your feet to keep dancing, but actually you end up just, people just looking on thinking, are you okay with that? Yes. I'm over here not doing that? Yeah. You don't have to live like that? Yes, exactly, exactly.

Yeah, and it always comes up, doesn't it, in ways? It does, but for anyone listening who's in the taking two minutes before they put the key in the door kind of bit you know how would you feel now looking back that you're in the bit where you're in the after of that intensity. That's really nice to put it that way. If I was back there looking forward you mean? Yeah, someone's listening and just sort of have a little glimpse into the bit where that...

Because at the time, I don't think you can think... you just feel like, oh, this is it. Because you haven't got the resource to project or fantasize about, you know, where it all leads. Because you're too busy thinking... that implies I've got through it all and I didn't lose the job. And I didn't crack any crap as a mum. You're just in the, you're just like getting it done. Yeah, roller coasters, holding on, holding on. I think that what I'd say is you're doing everything you need to do right now. And one day, you will look at yourself in the mirror and you will realise how unbelievably strong...

You were. Can we finish so I can give you a hug back? Yeah. Oh, thank you, I'm there. Oh, you are so strong. So lovely to listen back to that. I told you it was an emotional one. I mean, look, we both finished crying, just, you know, asking Ranvish out any advice out there for anyone. It needs to take a couple of minutes before they put the key in the door.

I think it's also just, you know, look, there's many ways to become a mum, there's many ways to become a family, there's many ways to raise a child. But I think sometimes you just look back and think, wow, I really, I don't mean me personally, Ranveer really articulated so much of that feeling when you've just, I don't know, you're just running on empty so much, pushing forward your work and filled with so much love for your child and you're just kind of all about that for days, months, years. So yeah, I really appreciate her clarity of thought on all those difficult days.

It was a real pleasure. And I hope someone out there might have benefited from hearing some of those words. Because I think we've all had days like that, haven't we? And we're all dealing with different things. And you know, always know what's going on with folk. Anywho, ultimately we do know we're all dealing with different things. And you know, always know what's going on with folk. Anywho, ultimately we do know we're lucky people if we get to have love in our lives with our kids

and with our work too. Hey, anyway, I've been sat here in the very hot room listening back and also with my little puss cats wandering around, my two kittens, somewhere out there, my kids are running around, it's kind of summer evening, so it's staying light till really late. But we've had a lovely day, I went to see my sister

and her husband, Gabe, and my new little niece, Alba. She's only two and a half weeks old, she's such a puppet. I love being an auntie so much already. It's gorgeous. And seeing my kids holding their cousin was very, very sweet. Yeah, I'm feeling good. I'm so satisfied with how well the tour went, so thank you again. And also, I'm excited. I've been having a few more conversations about the album and Perrymanipop, and I honestly do credit this podcast with giving me a little bit of fuel in my tank really when it comes to this chapter of my life and I don't know, thinking about

things in a slightly different way and helping me find a map. So much appreciated. Meanwhile we have another couple of episodes left of this series and I'm already starting planning the next one but have a lovely week. Sorry again to Richard for being so late. Congratulations to Ella May for her becoming a mum. Her baby is now in the world a week. And so Ella May again won't have her artwork on this podcast,

but I'm thinking of her and her family. And yeah, so thank you to Richard on Father's Day. Thank you to Claire Jones for gorgeous production on the podcast. Ella May, so thank you to Richard on Father's Day. Thank you to Claire Jones for gorgeous production on the podcast, LMA, thinking of you. And of course, biggest thank you to Ranva, of course, being a lovely guest. And to you, Headline, for your beautiful ears. Thank you for lending them and I'll see you soon. Music You