Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 159: Ro Fielden-Cook

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

Ro Fielden-Cook is a woman with a heck of a life story. She has 3 sons: twins Alfie and Charlie (aged 15) and Freddie (aged 7).She is the founder of a wellbeing and fitness community ‘The SHE Collective’ which has a holistic approach to giving busy women more life, more confidence and more energy. She had her twins as a single mother as she left University. One of the twins, Alfie, was diagnosed with a life-limiting condition called SMA when he was still a baby. Her story of fighting for her son’s health and then falling in love is jaw-dropper.Ro talks about her wonderful rock of a mum, and also about losing her incredible-sounding dad when she was a teenager. Ro’s positive spirit is inspiring and I guarantee you’ll be using her dad’s motto ‘Onwards and upwards’ when you’ve finished listening. Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophie Ellis-Bexter and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates Hey there The train said hello to

If you're in London like me blimey it's hot or experience a heatwave. It's quite funny because I had work in South of France this week, very nice, and took an extra day because Richard and I brought our 16 year old kid with us and so we took an extra day just to have some time with him and celebrate finishing GCSEs. And it was the same temperature there so it felt quite weird to get on the plane in Nice, it's boiling, fly home, get off the plane, it's exactly the same temperature back in London, crazy. So I'm walking through the park at the moment, the grass needs some water and let's have a look at the fashion today. You know what I think

people are nailing it sometimes people go a bit too beachy in the city which I personally struggle with. Look this is just a personal thing I just don't want to see flip-flops in London town. Birkenstock's acceptable I don't want to see flip-flops please it's a city. This is just my take. I do wear jelly shoes, so I might say I'm a hypocrite. Anyway, hope you're good. I have a lovely guest for you today. She's called Ro.

I was following her because I could see that she was running a wellbeing fitness community called the She Collective, and I was interested in what she was up to. But I think what it was that really attracted me was also her personality and enthusiasm and all-round immediate likeability, you know. I just thought this woman seems really lovely. And then the more I got to know about her story, the more I was like, wow, this lady's done an incredible job to build up her fitness community against the backdrop of really quite a difficult experience

of motherhood. So she's got three sons, she's got twins Alfie and Charlie, they're 15 and I met Alfie actually, he came to soundcheck and the gig in Bristol which was lovely and Freddie who is 7 and when she had her twin boys she was only 22 and she split up with the father very quickly so she was basically a single mom and after a year she could see that one of her twins wasn't thriving and he was actually told she was actually told by the doctor when she first went to have him assessed he had a condition called SMA and they said basically, enjoy him while you have him, which won't be for long.

Like, unbelievably devastating. I'm gonna let Ro tell the rest of the story because she articulates it so well, but you might need some tissues nearby. It's, she's been through a lot and she's so gorgeous and she's coped with it all so well and happily she is now back together with the father of the twins they've subsequently had another boy they're happily married but yeah she

tells it better than I ever could so this is Rose story it's really inspiring but also made me want to the whole time we were talking I just couldn't wait to the end to give her a massive cuddle because she's yeah, just You just really want to hug her for all she's done and how much she's got through. So yeah, I will see you on the other side Here's Rose story and thanks for finding us here. Cheers! It's so nice to meet you Rose and so nice to meet you, Ro. And so nice to meet you. Thank you for coming to London on this sunny day from Bath. And I was thinking there were so many aspects of our conversation that I think could take up the whole conversation.

We could have just dealt with, I don't know, what it's like to be, find yourself a single mum at 22 to twin babies and then to find out one of them has pretty pronounced medical needs and all that that entails. And then what it's like to have their father come back into their life when they're five and then having another baby. But I would really like to start with the Shee collective because that's what led me to you. And there's such positive and good energy around that.

So why don't you tell everybody what the She Collective is all about? Yeah, I love that. Well, the She Collective is about giving women a space to thrive, but it's a safe space, because I think that where I felt kind of, I kind of felt on the edge of a lot of like well-being or health, you know, I wasn't particularly sporty,

you know, I'm not naturally, I'm not naturally motivated at all. People are like, oh, you're a PT, you must find it really easy to exercise. I'm like, absolutely not. Yeah, I really struggle with motivation, but I always felt quite shamed within that world. And because of my own journey

and the way that I came about exercise, discovering for me that it was such a kind of a mental journey as well as a physical journey about finding that place of peace, which I think a lot of women struggle with, I wanted a space created where people could actually have these like messy, beautiful lives, but feel at home because I didn't want them to feel like oh you're doing this

therefore you're doing it wrong or anything like that I wanted to give them a permission to mess up to fail to kind of like experiment with different types of movement you know like one of our favorite things to do our kitchen discos right because there is that is a form of exercise, but it's about bringing the joy into it. So it's a women's health and wellbeing membership, but really it is kind of, I really want to disrupt that space.

Like, I don't mean that in an aggressive way, I just in a gentle way and kind of like challenge that perception that we have to do health and we have to do wellbeing in a certain way and give women, yeah, this permission to kind of do it together and make it fun. Like the community side is just wild. Like it's so amazing feeling like that sense of connection

within there. So, yeah, so women are time poor, busy, quite frazzled, a lot of women. Yeah, doing furious nodding over here. Yeah, so, but it gives them the permission to start prioritizing themselves, get off the bottom of the priority pile whilst doing it in a safe space

and having fun along the way. So that was a really long-winded answer. I don't think it is. It's kind of hard to put it in a box, you know. I don't think it's long-winded and I also don't think it is too much information, because I think you've really summed up for me something that actually I think I was feeling,

and I hadn't even really articulated it like that, which is that you're right, that sort of wellbeing space I felt was, existed for a kind of woman that I am not. Yes, exactly. And I associate it with being really well-pull exactly. And I associate it with being really well pulled together. I associate it with being really organized. I actually associate it, I think, with a certain type of affluence.

I don't necessarily mean in terms of a monetary thing, but a sort of a way you've organized your life to make this space and prioritize something that I always feel like I'm on the back foot with managing to cram in. Yes. I think I hadn't really even thought back foot with managing to cram in. Yes. I think I hadn't really even thought about it like that. And if I can feel like that, I'm sure that's the tip of the iceberg really.

Because I do have a lot of support in my life. So the amount of people out there must be thinking, ah, that's just not for me. And wanting not to feel self-conscious or like you're getting it wrong or a bit shy about the beginning bits of how you might do an exercise, or how you might move your body. There's so much shame. So much shame. It's like so much shame.

And people just go like, you know, they talk about going to the gym. Going to the gym, I am scared of going to the gym. So I cannot even imagine how it must feel to some people. So to be able to like learn that confidence in moving your body and not worrying about getting it wrong. Like a lot of people can either put themselves again in a box, I'm a gym goer or I'm a home exerciser,

but I really don't think that with all of these things, we don't need to label it. And I think that that's where I really found is that for some women, like they need that safe space to be able to discover how they like moving their body. There is a fitness formula and it's not as straightforward as going, okay, I like this type of class or I like that type of class. So yeah, it's not straightforward really. And what does the Shee collective look like if you're interacting with it? So you've got an app and you can become a member of that collective?

Yeah, we actually had an interesting conversation about this yesterday, because we were saying that, whilst we're hosted on an app, we're not an app. If you were going to get an app, there's a million of them. But the whole point of it being a membership, but also a movement really, that's what people are becoming part of. I do not limit myself from my members at all, as in some people are very standoffish.

Originally I was in every WhatsApp group, that was excessive, that was too much. Now we have community leaders. You're just experimenting, weren't you, with where you could be. But I'm also deeply compassionate, and so actually when somebody is saying they're going through something,

I don't switch off and go to bed and go, oh right, all right, well they're just going through that. I think about that and I hold that and so I realize that in order to actually hold these women in this space that I actually needed to take that kind of step back. But in terms of the membership, like you know, every other week I'm on, like yesterday I was on calls with members and things and you know, but then we have our event schedule and I really want to do more kind of outward facing things. I want to talk to women about women's wellbeing because something that I kind of find difficult

is to hold back my mouth because I'm so passionate about it because it changed my life, but now what I'm seeing is like, when the ripple effect. Yes, I was going to say that. That is what I just can't get my head around, is that when you do make that shift within yourself and a lot of women are not doing this or prioritizing it because they feel that their families need them and everything and everyone needs you, but the moment that

women do that, that ripple effect, it's the least selfish thing that you can do. So if you can find a safe space to do that and do it in a joyful way, that's when the journey actually becomes really fun. And when you go like, okay, right, massive curve balls come with, I'm actually being told this is totally normal. And if I don't exercise for the next few weeks,

that's totally fine. Then it takes that guilt and shame away, which I think is what, I don't know, personally, I felt, yes, so the guilt and the shame was what I would go, okay, I'm doing this for two weeks and then I'm off the wagon. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess it's a little bit of, we're talking about sort of rewiring the associations they

have and some of that will be stuff they might have carried over from when they were really young and some of it might be to do with the way they framed it in their modern life. So it might be like, sometimes you feel like, oh, I have to put myself bottom of all these other things. But actually, if you give yourself, allow yourself to prioritize it a bit, then you're actually putting into place a framework that can affect positively all the other things you get up to.

Yeah, I mean, I always think it's really interesting because it is that sort of, when you invest something, you're thinking of like, return on, investment, return on investment, right? And actually those 30 minutes or 20 minutes even, or whatever that you're spending, like on the mat or wherever it might be, it's not really about that time. It's about that. It's about what you get in return. So it's like, you know, it's really difficult because sometimes you have to really tune in and go, what do I need today? Because that's obviously going to be so different. So if you're following something that's mega structured, and we do like structured programs

because it takes away the mental load, but there's always room for flexibility. That's why we have dance parties and mood boosters and things like that, but then also yoga pilates because what you need on one single day is so different. And particularly as women, right? Like some days, I'd like rather shovel shit than do a workout, but it's because actually, oh, okay, I'm a week out from my period, right, okay, then I can come out with like self-compassion. And so I think putting the nutrition and exercise in two boxes, that just didn't, it wasn't doing enough,

and that's why, you know, that's why I trained in mindset coaching and that's why I'm fascinated by the nervous system because I'm on a wellbeing journey myself. It doesn't end, but I would say my nervous system is still pretty fried from, from the past and the fact that I'm scared to dig it up and go into trauma therapy. Like I think it's important, like that I'm not going here going, I've done it. You know, it's not done. So we're never really done like that anyway. It was sort of giving yourself the chance

to unravel all these things and work out what needs to be looking backwards and what is more about a reset for now. Because it's not always about digging things up necessarily, but about making sure you're okay in the here and now, or good enough, I guess would be the objective. So if you're, just so I completely get my head around it, when did you establish what the She Collective is?

Well, I think it was interesting is that when I started PTing, it was because of COVID really, because I had booked up classes, I'd built up this, it was so exciting. I had all these clients, I loved working face to face. And then a lot of people just got forced online. But when I did go online, I actually discovered that the things that were making these women's journeys really kind of successful, which were making it as easy as possible, it working with your life, not against it. If women are time poor, sometimes actually getting out and getting to a class, it can feel

like another thing to do or whatever. But then also like this sense of community. Like when we did this one Zoom call, my mum and I, because like I was saying, she's a psychotherapist and we did this Zoom call because I said to my mum, I said, these women are really struggling. Like, you know, that second lockdown, it was like January and we're like homeschooling, like what? It was so grim. And these women were like really struggling. And I was like, I don't have the expertise to support them with the kind of mental side

of things yet. So we did a call and we had 50 women turn up to this call and women cried, women laughed, women just opened up. And I just, we stayed on the Zoom call afterwards because it was when I was still, we were literally not, because we were shielding, literally wasn't even seeing my mom face to face. And when we were on the Zoom call after,

my mom and I cried and I just said, this is something so special. Like this has to become something. I don't want to just be a PT. I want to create, like I say, like a movement because this vulnerability and this permission to be human is something that I don't feel like there are spaces like this and I want to create it. But then I knew that it couldn't just be me

and I didn't want it to be me. I've always said like, you know, yes, it's a purpose led business and I have to face out, you know, and talk. But at the end of the day, it's not the Ro show. It is about the women in the membership. And so what I really wanted to do was bring in other expertise

who could help women with their nervous system. So we have hypnotherapy, we have meditations, all these things that women would have to, maybe can't go out and get that. And again, I was so excited by the prospect of, if I invest in one resource, all of those women get the benefit. And that to me was like, that was so exciting.

And that's where an online platform I was like this isn't a hindrance this is really exciting like yeah that's something you can see oh we can go outside of you know you can break through walls and get reach everyone now yeah yeah and and you know like well-being like we've got we've had um sessions with personal stylists because actually style like a lot of women have lost that, you know, that phrase, lost their pink, kind of. It's like they've lost that spark and they have started like wearing all black and yet they used to wear colour. And so these sessions of learning how to dress for your body and how to wear colour, like that is just, I just, I love that so much because every time after one of those sessions, women will like reach out and just say

that this is unlocking parts of me that I didn't know were still there. So it's... Yeah. And I think I really can get a sense from you and I totally understand that feeling. Once you start unlocking that feeling in people, and you're doing it in yourself too, you sort of drop all the layers of like, just being really honest and open and willing. And then that energy sort of really like once it starts to tumble and you can see little

changes in people and just finding their little bounce back. It's really, it's really powerful. And I can understand why you got emotional with your mum when you had that zoom because you suddenly go, never mind, you know, the entrepreneur side or the business building or all the other tools we're learning here, the purity of that connection is really what it boils down to. That's what kind of is at the kernel of what it is. And that connection, that was why it's funny because, yeah, like you say, the business side and the entrepreneurship, I've never been very good at that side because it's quite

funny because a lot of the advice that I get, I go, absolutely not. Because it's like every coach I've ever had or anything, they go, you've got to get rid of the WhatsApp groups. The WhatsApp groups have got to go. It's not scalable. It's not that. And I was like, then I don't want it to exist. Because for me, it's funny because I would roll my eyes and go, God, do not give me another WhatsApp group in my life. But these are spaces with women who, they don't want your time, they're not needing anything from you, they are literally simply there

in the capacity to support you. And the things that come out and get said in those WhatsApp groups, they're never more than like 30 max, but you know, which sounds like a lot, but interestingly, like a lot of people are just not even like communicating in them, but they say that they're still highly valuable in their lives.

Yeah, I can see that. It's just hearing that somebody else is struggling with something or normalizing that. It just gives this amazing safe space. That's why we wanted the community leaders, because these women are championing what we're doing, and they are there to hold those women and hold space for them. That that means that, you know, I have the capacity to also hold space because, yeah, it just got to a point where I was like, this is, yeah, this is a lot. So what's the scale of it now then from the lockdowns of early beginnings of it to now? Yeah, so we've got 400 members now.

And, you know, and I think what's really nice is that with this model of having the community leaders, the sense of community and the sense of intimacy never needs to change. And I think that was really important to me. Ultimately, of course, we want to scale, we want to get bigger, because this is genuinely changing people's lives. The messages that I get, it would be actually wrong to not try and get more women involved. But at the same time, it is a purpose-led and heart-led business and there's no sense of me whatsoever in that if it became something different, that's not right. What I really want to do is just bring more of these

like, for us to have this vision of everybody on the beach together and running into the scenes, you know, it's that sort of like, we are a she, it's just like that sense of like, you know. Don't make me cry. Yeah. So, you know, I love the idea of like, I've always joked about it. So in some of the workouts where we do marches, I'm like, this is us with our like visors on in Florida when we're 80, like walking around the pool.

Like, it's just so lovely that I've got so many members who were there with me right from the beginning. And so for them, actually, they're my biggest champions, which is just to have that as well. This is really special. No, I totally get that. And I also get that, you know, there's so many brilliant examples of things that scale up, but are really careful to keep the detail and the essence of what it's about the same. Because you're right, you're coming at it from what would work for you. So you're thinking all the time of like,

well I would like this, I would like that, all those little details that keep it feeling personal and thoughtful, and I think, you know, you've said a couple of times, safe, I think safety in that is really paramount as well. So people can be like, oh I always struggle with this and no one's going to go, oh, why are you here then? But I think I want to go, oh, why are you here then? No, no, no.

But I think I want to go back now, back in time, because I was already following your Instagram and learning about She Collected, but then the other day you did another one where you sort of put an update of like, look, I'm just going to reintroduce myself and my story, and I was kind of, there was so much in it that I thought was extraordinary. You've, you've dealt with so much and you've got so much positivity.

And I was really magnetized to that. So I think it's really wonderful that you shared it all, but also I would love to now just talk to you about it. So why don't we go back in time to when you found yourself at 22 having babies. What were you, were you working at that time or you just finished uni or? So I just finished uni.

I mean, it's interesting in terms of, you know, what I didn't include in that story is that I was thinking about it, it's not very often you think about your life story, right? And then when you have to like sit back and reflect because there was a sort of layer right before. So I grew up like I say in Bath, it was a real bath, I was so lucky, I had the most beautiful childhood I was so so lucky. And then when I was 17, my dad died very suddenly, and he was clearing an area in the woodland and actually he was cutting down a tree and it fell on him.

Oh my god, I'm so sorry. Well, it was it was just you know, it's it's I've got so much I've learned so much from that experience But I've never given it any time or space to actually think about how that affected me even before like, you know It's it was yeah, it's a real like, you know, it really takes the rug beneath you. You think that you're kind of safe in life. And I always felt like I was just, I don't know, weirdly, I almost felt like I had this protection around me. And then I think I dealt with quite a lot of hidden trauma

in that, at that time, I became very destructive of my eating habits and things but I was really good at hiding it all and things so I was kind of really struggling with my body but life went on really really quickly you know and then I went to uni and life moved on and then but I have got really good by this point at that point at 17 I just remember going back into school and I think what was really interesting is I remember I'd gone back into school, I was really popular, had lots of friends, it was like I was a bad smell.

People literally couldn't get further enough away from me. They just didn't know how to handle it. And actually a friend really talked to me recently about it, about the fact that she just went, we were shit. And I went, we were 17, it was just, it was what it was. And I'm still, I've got the most amazing group of friends from school. But you know, I think people do not know how to deal with grief.

And so, my response was to be so positive and so like, like strong. You know, like I got that like label for myself, like at that age, like, you know, that's what people liked. They liked it when I was positive, they liked it when I was strong. And so that's where I kind of went to uni again, was like this positive, really really bubbly person, and I learned really early on that that's where kind of I was safe, you know, and I think

that that's another layer to why this means so much to me. But then, yeah, then when I was 22, I was in a sort of brief relationship, and then we broke up, and then actually it was the next morning that I found out that I was pregnant. Oh, wow. Life has a sense of humor sometimes, doesn't it? It really does, and actually it was insane because I had actually had a dream, so I'd gone out and I kind of got to the bar to go do a shot and went, ooh, nope, that's not happening, and then got home and had a dream that I was pregnant. And so then I just remember standing under a bus stop

in Birmingham, I was just about to do my finals and things with my friend in the pouring rain, waiting for Lloyd's Pharmacy to open and then literally being like turning to her and going, I think this is quite a big moment. I'm like, you know, like, I think this, yeah. And then, yeah, I mean, we're twins as well, like the hormones. So it's like one of those ones, even like, you know, 16 years ago, it's one of those ones that pops up and it was like, you know, it's meant to say two minutes, 20 seconds, Bregman. But it was,

yeah, it was a real shock. And I kind of, yeah, I knew at that point. So there was something like I'm not, you know, like, I am the least judgmental person about, you know, what women do with their bodies. I have like, I am so pro-choice. But for me, it was, it was so bizarre. It was like, it felt like there wasn't a choice, not from external. there was just something that was pulling me so hard that this was meant to happen, which I think is something that is difficult for men to understand, but we know as women, sometimes there is just this overriding,

and of course, now I understand, it was double hormones, it was twins. So there was just everything in within my body was going Okay, this is this is happening. This is happening and um, I Went to London to try and break the news. It's the guy that just broken up with me He just run the run the London marathon. I did actually wait till he'd done the marathon I didn't think he would have given him time to think about that for 26 miles. Exactly, exactly.

I'll tell you at the start line. Yeah, yeah. And at the end, you can tell me all. Enjoy. Yeah. I mean, it'd be the end to discuss forever. Oh, gosh. But yeah, it was, you know, I was 22, he was 23.

We were young and yeah, it was a really difficult time because then I went for a scan early on because I had a lot of stomach pain, I actually thought I was losing the baby and then it was yeah, bizarre, it was again when they said twins I was like yeah, no, yeah, kind of like, kind of just, yeah, like and they're boys, like this is six weeks, they're like well we don't know if they're boys and was like, I'm telling you now they're boys. It was just really bizarre. It was just that kind of sixth sense kind of thing. And then it was really apparent earlier on that, you know, the dad was not going to be involved and things.

And I have this amazing, amazing mum who kind of just, you know, just said, I've got you. And so, yeah, like, you know, the plan was I had a place at New York Film Academy, which always makes me laugh. All these big plans and stuff. And you know, my... That's okay. That doesn't sound at all fun or glamorous. No, it was a rubbish plan. So yeah, so that obviously got completely scrapped. And I think I was incredibly naive about what a twin pregnancy like, you know, I was like 22, I was kind of like, you know, in a young body,

we're all told that that's the best way to do it or whatever. Well, I mean, yeah, that twin pregnancy absolutely like destroyed me. Like I had, that is it called PBS, you know, with your pelvis separates. I was sleeping in a chair because I couldn't get in a bed. That must have been so uncomfortable. It was so uncomfortable and it was so, and it was so lonely. And it was like, you know, because then at that point, that's the summer after uni, you know, I'd done, I did do my finals with a bucket by my side.

I had the worst morning sickness ever. But then, you know, I did manage to get my degree, and then everyone's then moving on. And I think that's the thing is that you get that initial, like I remember going back to uni and everyone and kind of telling it, I told everyone very early because it was going to be really obvious, right? We're at uni, everyone's going out all the time and things. And suddenly it's like, I'm not drinking or do I have a different... And I was so sick. So everyone had done that, you know, amazing, like I had this amazing response of like, you know, we've got you, we're your family, we're there and then of course everyone has their own lives. And so everyone went off in different directions and then I eventually had the twins at 34 weeks.

I didn't just get pre-eclampsia because you know that would be what I got eclampsia so that was yeah that was awful. Well as in you had a coma? I was basically fitting when I went in. Oh my god, wow. So again, you know. You didn't put all of this in your little summary on Instagram. No, no, no.

Well you know, my mum was there and it was scrubs and it was just amazing. I'm so sorry you went through all of that as well. I think what was really hard about it was that I didn't get to see the boys for a few days. It's a rough start to motherhood isn't it? I had pre-eclampsia so I had my first two earlier. I didn't get the fitting. I was lucky,'s, you know, I mean, I was lucky. They didn't put me under. They managed to get, but it was very, it was all very, you know, kind of emergency kind of state and stuff, but they, but I think what sucked

was being in a room on my own for three days in intensive care, not just being, just out of reach of those babies was really, really tough start. That's awful. And things have changed so much now because then they put me up on the ward. They were down in Nikku and I remember waddling out into the hallway and being like,

what's going on? And my milk had come in and I'm just literally like, there's no one there telling me because everyone's babies are crying. So I'm just literally like, my body is going, feed, feed, feed. And I've got no babies to feed. And so it was just, there were just bits of it that were just so lonely. And then I think when you were young, I mean, there's just a lack of authority,

like kind of, you know, I just kind of, I don't know, I still, I think everyone was viewing me like a child. And so- Well, they just, sometimes I think when you've had a medical start to the baby's being in that emergency state, I think they don't know what you do and don't know about what's happening to you. I remember, it's not comparable, your situation was definitely more dramatic, but after I had my first baby, so he came along at 32 weeks, I hadn't done all the classes and everything yet. I didn't have anything for him. I was very much like, I haven't even bought him socks or nappies or anything.

And then I was just after I had him and I went to have a, I could just get up after the operation to have a shower. And I was bleeding and I said to the nurse, oh, I'm bleeding. She went, oh, didn't anyone tell you? Of course. Yeah, he'd been bleeding for days. But you didn't know. I just didn't know anything. And I thought, oh, I'm supposed to know all this stuff. But I think they just forget to talk to you in a way that you might have been spoken to if you'd had that more predictable punctuation of pregnancy as it follows through. Yeah. Or maybe not. Maybe there's still those situations that happen that they are really lonely.

I think we're learning, aren't we, about how tough... What was interesting is that there was no... I didn't have a smartphone, I couldn't Google, and I'm so glad that I couldn't in a way, because in a way that level of naivety, I think, kind of helped me in that situation. And whilst everyone was up to loads of fun, at least I wasn't being bombarded with seeing them on

socials or things like that. That's true, actually, yeah. So I just kind of bedded down and was in this little world with the boys and But you know, I think like my mom my granny all the women in my life had had found having children very easy You know, you know breastfeeding found it easy. So I kind of had this why am I not finding this easy? And I have again a lot of shame around that. Like, why am I not resilient enough? Why am I not strong enough to find this easy? And I did, I found it really, really, really tough. And I remember I used to like, I got my coping mechanisms and they were the worst coping mechanisms. So I was just just like every night would have half a bottle of wine

and I would count from over and over in a series of eights. I would just go one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight because they'd be screaming, both screaming. And I'd be on my own and it would just be, you know, whilst yes, my mum was around but she was doing her own thing, setting up a charity, she's working full time, you know. It's the same for any woman, right, with a husband.

Like it's not like that person is there all the time. I think just any scenario of those early days can be very, very lonely, but there was just such a mask for me as in I just was like, right, I've just got to be cheerful and get on with it and I'll bundle them into the car like nearly every weekend and come up to London and see friends and it would be really lonely in those mornings when everyone's hung over and they're still sleeping or whatever but at least then I would have some time where I'd have some other hands and have some other people because the rest of it was just being in this little cold cottage just kind of suffering and so in

my head I was like I've just got to get through the first year like people always talk about you know the first year but then when I was like, I've just got to get through the first year. Like people always talk about the end of the first year. But then when I was getting through the first year, it just became really clear to me that one of the twins was just not developing in the same way as the other one. So Alfie, I remember watching a video of him and I was watching him and my heart just sunk

because I could see that when he was three months, he was kicking his legs like crazy. And I was like, he doesn't do that anymore. And then it was just little things like they both sat like eight months but then Charlie's on his front and he's trying to crawl there's like literally I was bound you know how you bounce babies and with those little two toes and stuff and there's just nothing just nothing in his feet but again it was like that level of just trying to have that voice like I was going to the doctors and the term didn't even exist then, but I was being gaslit.

Like I was literally being told, like, they're twins, you're comparing them, like he'll catch up. And it was just relentless. I remember going to the GP five times before I could even get a referral to hospital. And then, you know, and then hospital being just such a nightmare, not getting anywhere and having to for the first time in my life, like I could eat something that tastes terrible in a restaurant, I just sit there and go, okay, cool, thanks so much, I'm used to it. But when it's your own child, you find this voice that you don't know exists within you. So I wrote a formal complaint and said, I'm not being listened to. There's

something wrong with my child because he was losing weight and he was getting really poor. We were in, we were in hospital a lot, he was getting chest infections and he was really poorly. And I was like, there is something wrong with my child. And I remember my sister-in-law saying, she came in and she didn't mean that it to be like quite so brutal, but she said, I just feel like he's just going to fade like before us and we won't ever know what was wrong with him. And I was just like, I can't have this, I cannot have this. And so once I've made a formal complaint, unfortunately that's what has to happen and then suddenly I've got a consultant's number and you know all of this and then they wrote me a letter and said and I just remember this one line I used to pour over these letters over and over again and

there was this one line and it said there is still a risk of a primary neurological diagnosis. And then I looked them up, what are those? And I read about SMA and it was just, I was like, yeah, that's him. That's him. Yeah, so I said, I want a blood test for SMA, that's him. And at the time, when you were reading about SMA, it was so, it's still to this day,

the number one killer of children under two. So people, even though it's so rare, but there is now- Just because it's hard to diagnose or? It's hard, it's very rare, but children with type one, it's swallowing, feeding, they don't have the muscles to even do that, so. I see. But things, I say still, you know, what's interesting

is that it's a completely different condition now, you know, like he's here, you know, but at the time they just said go away and enjoy him. That's it. That was it. There's so much you're saying that's so heartbreaking. I'm so sorry you've, I mean even the image of you with the wine and the counting to eight and the screaming babies, but having to fight to be heard about your instinct, that's painful. And then finding out that your gut is right.

I still can't go past that room in the hospital. It's like, they just, I remember when they diagnosed him, it was the weekend of Kate and Will's wedding. I say it so casually like they're my friends, but you know. No, but that sets the time and the place. It was a time of, you know, everyone knows that know. No, but that sets the time and the place. It was a time of it, you know, everyone knows that very like, yeah. It's very sunny and bunting. Exactly.

And it was a bank holiday weekend and the appointment was before the bank holiday weekend and he called me to cancel it and they were going to be giving it to me. And he said, I'm aware that your mum is away. And I was really close to both my brothers, but one of my brothers in particular was living locally and he said, I know that you haven't got family support there, so let's do this conversation on Tuesday. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're not leaving me for four days, like absolutely not.

So I took a really good family friend who helped with me when I was little and I remember Kay and I sat in this room and yeah, it's just, you know, the words come out and I just, yeah, I like, I just remember so well just literally getting out the hospital doors. It was really sunny, beautiful April day and I just fell to the ground. Cause it was just, even when you know that,

that kind of, that confirmation to just go back and be with him was just so painful. Like, to be, yeah, it was dark. It was really dark. And I think that that's the thing is that I have felt like such depths of darkness that that's where I think that I know, you know, you only know the light when you've been in that dark darkness. And yeah, it couldn't have really been more pitch black at that point.

But again, like, you know, I look back and it's just that swan-like behavior, like head above water, frantically paddling underneath. Just again, I just remember spaces of like, when I would mention or talk about Avs Diagnosis and people clearly getting uncomfortable. And so to make them comfortable, I just put on such a face. And so it was like I'd have this face and I'd, you know, kind of be good with the boys

and things, but then I'd get home and I'd just, I'd be there and then at the night, I had terrible nightmares every night. And then in that space on my own was just so lonely. It was so dark and it was just grim. And it kind of stayed that way for a long time. But then I had a new consultant and I said to him, look, if this was your child, what would you do? Because I need to do anything, anything I possibly can.

And at this point they thought he was type one they said there's a put that he's doing better than we expected there's a possibility that he's type two winters are going to be your hardest thing because it's pneumonia eventually that would would kind of would lead to death and so it was so it was like keep him well keep him well but you know so there's no chance of like I didn't want to socialize with other people, you become really isolated. Like I was looking at like, again, like we did in COVID, like looking at handrails, wondering like whether there's,

you know, I'm not that person. I grew up on like a farm. I like, used to like eat dirt, you know. It's like, it's not, I'm not that person, but you just become, you look at the world in a different light. And then he said, if this was my child you look at the world in a different light. And then he said, if this was my child, I would get him to a hot climate.

That's what we would have done 50 years ago. And so that, it was at that point that I then started working in a bar, earning a bit of money. And I, we did, I did home exchanges, so I didn't have to pay for accommodation, got enough money for the flights, I flew out to Australia and did four months in Australia with the boys. And that just, it was like, when we took off on the plane, we could barely, they were worried about taking off because he was so chesty. And I was like, I don't know if I'm doing the right thing here.

I'd already talked to like hospitals in Sydney, had all of that set up, everything was set up. But I just didn't know whether I was risking him by doing this. But within two days of being there, his chest was clear as a whistle. We just had this newfound life. There is something about Sydney and you know it's just it's such an incredible place and so we we just I found that the boys and I just found this like I was enjoying them like every day I was just enjoying them. We were in the water in the sun like Alfie had this just beautiful

glow about him. He'd gone from literally looking you know he just like he just he just looked so malnourished and I hated the way that I'd be out and about with him. And people would like almost look, I felt like people were looking at me like judgmentally or something like I wasn't taking good enough care of him because he looked this certain way. And then suddenly he just, yeah, he just came, he came back to life. I came back to life. It was just, it was the most incredible trip. And when you went there, it was just you on your own with them. Yeah, my mum came out for a bit,

but I was mostly out there on my own. And yeah, and it really was the most extraordinary trip. But then, yeah, there was years where we muddled through and then it was just, it was, I think the boys were, yeah, they were five and a half when I, he'd been in hospital a lot. So it was obviously things didn't get simpler, but there was now a very good chance that he was type two.

So he had a wheelchair and he was, you know, he's just, he's the most beautiful, he is just the most beautiful boy. And he just like was, because of the way that he, he's just always been so outgoing. It was so funny. It was like, I was remembering the other day that even he just like was because of the way that he he's just always been so outgoing it was so funny it was like I was remembering the other day that even from when he was two people would like you know two-year-olds don't generally talk in full sentences but when you're not using your body maybe you just learn to use your mouth better and he would be like

hi I'm Alfie I'm going to be a paleontologist and like he would just literally like go into like full convers with people and he's always been really good at that. And so we were kind of building this lovely little life and things were feeling a bit safer. And then I got an email from their dad and saying that he wasn't having a great time, as in he was struggling with the fact of his decision and that was obviously having an impact on him.

And I had always said I would never keep the door closed. Like that just did not feel, that felt like a selfish decision. That would not be right for them. And so I kind of met him first and that was nerve wracking in itself and everything. But I said that if you're really serious about this then you can meet the boys and things. And that you know if you're really serious about this then that I will you can meet the boys and things and that went really well and it was but it was it was very brief really between his first couple of visits and things and then Alfie got really seriously

poorly and it was like a we were sat in the in the park and he was sat on my lap and I could almost like feel his chest rattling and he was so little and I said I'm not going home, I'm actually going to have to take him to hospital and I remember Alex's face looking quite shocked and I was like yeah this is quite normal like unfortunately but it ended up he had two collapsed lungs and he was seriously ill, like seriously seriously ill and my mum had, he'd gone back to London. I remember my mum called him to say, you need to get down here. He might not make it through the night. And he came down and I've always felt really bad about this, but he tells

me about how he, because we were meant to call him first thing in the morning. But of course, I was just totally consumed. I'm just literally lying on the bed with Alfie and just completely consumed by the situation. So no one had called him in the morning. And so he lay and listened to, what does he say it was Sam Smith, Lay With Me, that song and just bawled his eyes out because he thought Alfie had passed away.

And so, when you think that you're in that situation, I remember when he came into hospital and it was the first time the four of us had been together. So Charlie was there too. And it was the four of us just together in this room. And the barriers come down pretty fast at that point, because you when you've just been through like that, some, you know, anything like that with somebody, you just, you know, so my kind of, I'm not going to talk to him, I'm, you know, like, just like, the barriers came down quite fast. And then he looked after the boys when I came up to London. And I remember I, someone had given me a flat pack barbecue for my birthday and I was like, cheers, give the single mother a flat pack barbecue. That's a great idea. And he sent me a photo and it was the boys

with their lightsabers and the flat back bug you built. And I was like, oh bugger, I think I like him. So yeah, so we, the barriers came down quite fast and I think, yeah, I very much fell for Alex. And, and you know, I'd always really liked him. He, he is pretty much the kindest, most gentle soul there is. It had just been an extraordinary time and we were both young. And so, yes, it was very funny kind of starting to see each other behind your kids' backs. Yeah.

That's so. That's quite a unique situation, that isn't it? Yeah, yeah. We would literally be sat like, be in the park and then like, we'd be sat on a park bench and just have a little handhold or something and it was just, yeah.

And so, but obviously we had to realize. It's funny, yeah, watching your mom date but she's dating your dad. Yeah, you should see. Oh, it's quite complicated. It was also very sweet. It was quite complicated. Before we move a bit forward,

I do just want to take a minute because I was sat there listening to everything you shared and thank you and I was thinking, I do just want to take a minute because I was sat there listening to everything you shared and thank you. And I was thinking, I don't want to cry. She's telling me her story, but you've been through so much. I don't think I could have handled it like you have. So thank you for sharing with me. But also I'm just like, I'm kind of like in awe.

I'm glad I was sitting down for the whole thing. It's a lot. Well, it is a lot, but it's also like you've just had to be so resourceful. And yeah, I'm just like, I hope you realize how amazing you've been through all of that. One of those episodes, one of those things would be someone's whole story. But you've had to deal with it several times over, from your dad to the babies during your finals and a bub-bye film school and all of it like that's so much and then obviously everything that's affected Alfie and your instinct and not being heard and finally all of it I'm just like yeah what

a woman you're such a woman that's incredible. But how nice to be like when you you know so honored to be asked to share my story because it feels like being, it feels very therapeutic for me because to be like on the other side and be reflecting, because when you're in something, you do just survive. And I think I know that feeling so well. And I think that that's why I'm so passionate

about women's health and women's wellbeing because I know what it's like to feel like you're drowning. Like literally to feel like you're underwater, but just to feel that you have to put on a face. And that is such an awful space to be in. It's suffocating. It's just so depressing. And I always like, you know,

I've lived on both sides of the fence and I think that that's important because I think it's important to be vulnerable and be honest because yeah because I think we can so often think that people are nailing it and then we just go a little deeper and actually true and you don't know what people are holding on you don't know what stories people tell you don't know what goes on in people's lives so you can yeah you know start chatting somebody like oh what goes on in people's lives. No, we have no idea. So you can start chatting to somebody and you're like, oh, okay, that's extraordinary.

Well, I always think when you have a situation, someone bumps into you, someone's a bit of an asshole or whatever, I go, okay, I don't know what's going on. I always think you have no idea. Those are often the people who have got the most going on. It's like we have a level of capacity. And I think that that is the thing. It is that thing of you walk around with this sort of most like backpack and I think that that is the thing is like, it is that thing of like you walk around

with this sort of most like backpack and life puts into that backpack every day. It's putting in those to-do lists, it's putting in that juggle, it's putting in all of those things. And so that's why if we don't have those things that we're using in our lives to take off that load, and you know, it is that cut, that, that cut,

you know, filling it back up, then that becomes so heavy. And I remember literally feeling like that, like I'm walking around with bricks inside like a massive backpack. And that's where it's just like that lightness. And I think that was the thing is that, you know, with, it wasn't, it was interesting because of course

it was like the love and coming back to that that brought the lightness, but that's why I'm so passionate about movement because actually six months before Alex had even, the reason why I think, you know, I think sometimes things happen for a reason, but that timing was so perfect was because I'd only just discovered myself again because I'd started going to this boot camp. I'd literally, it was the most unexpected thing in the world, classic, like, you know, millennial gone along to a boot camp thinking that it was going to like, oh, I feel better

if I lose some weight or I tone up or things like that. And actually the result of it was so unexpected because what would happen is I'd sit in the car afterwards in like Sainsbury Car Park and just scream and bawl and I had this something was unsticking everything that was heavy and low and I just remember like it was probably the first ten times that I went that I was kind of go like I don't think this is meant to make me cry but then I was like but it makes me feel better when I have you know because it's that release. That's an extraordinary I like that idea you say it's like unsticking I can sort of picture that all like something sort of like solidified and weighty and then

you're like ah it's like you're almost causing the fric, the kinetic energy. Yeah. You know, like, ah, like get out. Yeah. Well, it's like, it is like when you are feeling in that like sticky, heavy place, it's like that's for me, that's like, I need to just put some music on in the kitchen and just dance and like, just move my body and like literally, and it doesn't need to look pretty. It's like shaky.

Sometimes it's really nasty. I mean I do very strange dancing. I don't know if you're amongst friends here. It's so powerful it's so powerful and I just remember this one time after I like you know I just never thought I'd stick to it never stuck to exercise before going into the shop to go and get some food and almost having this Dorothy click of the heels, like, oh, oh, there she is, that's my spark, that's the old me coming back in. And I think that is just such an amazing feeling.

Is this going back to you, even before your dad died, do you think, is this like the 16? The carefree, the girl who's in her bubble, who thinks she's safe. I just like, I think it's hilarious that I'd always loved kind of life in a sense. It's interesting because my dad was an architect and the year that he died, he got Architect of the Year and he'd been invited to be the president of the Royal Institute of British Architecture. He was at the peak of his career.

He had 1,200 people at his funeral. It was incredible. In Bath Abbey, everyone shouted onwards and upwards because that was his phrase. Again, over and over again, it was the most powerful thing. Oh man, don't make me cry again, Ro. You've got to stop it. Come on then. again, over and over again. It was the most powerful game. Oh man, don't make me cry again, Ro. You've got to stop it. Come on then.

But that's why I always like, whenever I'm in a moment of like, building what I'm trying to build or talking about women's violence, I always finish with onwards and upwards because they like, I remember in his obituary, they were like, he always came into the office, into meetings or whatever with a sparkle in his eye

and he was an eternal optimist. And I think that, you know, that he, I'm so much of him. I'm so much of him. And I really feel like exactly like that. It was kind of up to 17, I was a particular person. And then, you know, 17 to 28, it's this kind of, yeah, a mist, and then I feel so much now, like so full of life. And that is an amazing place to be back in. It's a nice full circle.

But also, that is incredible to find that again, because I think for some people that might be the thing that, you know, it's like being able to find joy in life after so many things have been piled on you is really significant. Can we talk a little bit about your boys now because there's also another person in the picture as well. You have your six-year-old. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, I mean... So after you got together with Alex and... Yeah, things move fairly fast. They tend to when you've got kids together. So I think it was only four months before he moved down to Bath from London.

Did you both feel a sense of like, right, okay, now we can have this shared childhood? It was unbelievable that time. We talked about it the other day actually. It was so nice hearing him talk about it to someone. He said, I just couldn't get enough of it. We went to the Science Museum and we were just and it was just so special like just being out as a family. Like I've never done all those things. I remember like waking up and he brought me a cup of tea and I could hear the boys downstairs and I was like I don't owe this person someone something. I'm not asking for a favour, like I'd never had that. So it was just extraordinary to me that like to have this new found like unit, it was so special. And then yeah,

and then we got married in 2017. And then yeah, and then had Freddie in 2018. And I mean, yeah, he wasn't the quiet third girl I had on order, but I wouldn't have him any other way. It was so funny, because he was just, he's just a ball of like, yeah, energy, but I just love him so much. And having him together was so special. It was interesting though, because I thought naively in my head,

I was like, oh, this is the third kid, I've got a husband, this is gonna be, there's one of them, this is gonna be a cinch. I literally, in my head head I was like, oh, this is the third kid, I've got a husband, this is going to be, like, there's one of them, this is going to be a cinch. I literally, in my head I was like, oh, it's going to be an absolute cinch. And I found it so hard actually. It was, the early days were sort of okay, and then when he was three months he got sepsis, and so that triggered so much. Being in hospital with another child. I bet. Because I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no of losing yourself, I wasn't exercising, I wasn't doing anything for myself and everything.

And that time, that is when I actually, when I started exercising that time and it had the same effect on me. I was like, why the hell do women not know about this? As in obviously people would know about it, but why do we talk about exercise and we talk about abs and we talk about bums and we talk about weight loss and we talk about exercise and we talk about abs and we talk about like bums and we talk about weight loss and we talk about all those things? What about the fact that it's just literally the biggest mental release ever when you're getting it right and having fun with it? And so I just felt that there was another way.

And that's when I trained to be a PT. So he was he was Fred was only eight eight eight months but yeah, so now he's six and I've been a PT for over well, yeah five years and And the boys are 15. Oh my words. Well firstly, I think I mean how amazing you must be as a PT I feel I'd love a little days of this every day, but also Yeah, let's let's I mean so What is it like when you're, I mean, firstly, we have to establish it's so wonderful that the initial diagnosis you were given for Alfie

turned out to be wrong. Oh yeah, oh yeah. So this puts you now into a place where happily he's moving on. And you said before, I think this before we started recording that he and his twin go to the same school and he's got loads of mates and he's very popular. But what's it like to raise two kids when one has quite a medicalized childhood? How do you navigate that? Because I imagine that's something that's quite unique as well, because it's one thing to have these extra requirements and special equipment and routines.

But when you've got another child that's exempt from that, how do you manage, and as they get older, spotting the differences? Yeah, well that's been mega because, I mean it's interesting isn't it with twins, I think a lot of people say that they couldn't be more different for a start, they're really different. I think they're coming together again now but I think quite often with twins as well they have to kind of, they have to show that they're different in a way have different friendship groups move away from one another but and but it's been so hard that guilt of Trying to make sure that that you know, then Charlie is getting you know

Like nothing is simple when you've got a child that that's is that disabled and you've got an 190 kilogram wet wheelchair You know, it's not you're not just pushing up a step if you get stuck. It's like game over. So there are a number of places now that are still not accessible. The number of painful moments where we've gone somewhere and we have realized that we can't get in. So now, you know... That's awful. Yeah, it's really sad. That's why Australia was so good. So sometimes as a family you'll go somewhere and then be like, oh no, this doesn't work. Really often.

And places saying that they're accessible and then not being. And that's really hard because there's two people who, I'm very spontaneous, so taking that spontaneity out of your life, that can feel, again, like it makes your life smaller. There's so many things that your world just can shrink, so that's why it was so important to us that we did things whilst we could carry him. So we took him to India when he was seven and you know things like that, he went on an elephant, like things like that, because actually what is really sad is that now he is you know 15 and he is like a 15 year old's body and so actually that we are so limited because it's you know

luckily Alex is very fit he goes crossfit and stuff but actually he can't lift him even it's it's not right for him he's got a full spinal fusion so he's got you know top to top to bottom he's full of metal work it's not appropriate to lift him so there's so that again like we can't just book a holiday home like it's it's amazing how it's accessible homes. Again, they wouldn't have a hoist. They wouldn't have all those things. So it just limits your life so much.

And so that's why actually we've just done our first ever trip. We took the other two skiing for a week because it's something that both Alex and I love doing and we've never been able to do it. Alfie had the time of his life because he had everybody waiting on him hand and foot and he actually said, I don't want to come. I had so many moments that honestly I was an absolute wreck. I was crying just going down the mountain, but that

sense of freedom of just being with the other two and going, oh, okay, we're just getting on this plane, are we? Not like, okay, this is going to be the next half an hour, it's going to be absolutely awful, and then everyone's going to be in tears for the first half an hour because he's been bashed about and the treatment has been so bad, and it's just, you know, we've tried so hard.

Like last summer we went to Chicago, like we tried so hard, but there have been so many moments where we've literally sat and thank God we're so solid and we'll literally hold each other in that space, Alex and I, and just be like, this is so hard, and is it worth it? But then we're always like, yes, it is worth it

because he, Alfie has said, I was saying he wants to be a penitologist, since he is now four, he has said that he wants to be a film director. I actually believe he'll do it. His vision in life, the way that he can map out a scene is unbelievable. It's extraordinary. Like I say, when that energy's not going into your body, I think it goes into your mind and speaking and things.

And so he has already told me that he's bugging off to LA. So, but our job now is just about keeping his world big. I don't want his life to become small and I don't want women's to lives to become small. It all wraps into one. This is why it's like none of it is separate. Yes. And that's why like why I do what I do, because I've watched what happens when your life shrinks, I've watched what happens when you shrink inside and it's not pretty. Yeah.

And I'm thinking about how you've sort of, because obviously, you know, what you told me about if you have a disabled child and the idea of going somewhere as a family and finding out that when you get the access arrangements aren't what you thought or all the stress around everything, you know, when you just want to have some important experiences together. So you could have probably put your clear, incredible amount of energy into something like that, like, okay, I'm going to, but by prioritizing what works for you, you've allowed

yourself to be dedicated to your family in a way that spreads out like this and then becomes part of this collective. Yeah. And they actually love it. What's really nice is that my boys are really invested in it and I really love that. It's really cool. I remember sometimes you don't get a lot of feedback from teenagers, do you? So it's like...

You have to kind of choose your moments. Yeah. So when one of your kids tells you that they're proud of you or they think that what you're doing matters, for me it works on so many levels because I remember like on those early days, like a mum who had a child with SMA because they tend to do the clinics and all the children with SMA go to the same day. And I remember her saying to me, I was, you know, 23 at the time, she said, you'll never work.

She said, just to give you a heads up, you'll never work. Like this condition, it does not allow you to. And I was so, I remember that was like being cut off, like just cut by the waist down because I was just like, that for me, I've always been somebody who's driven, who's passionate. So to think that this was, okay, I love my child and I'll pull my passion into this, but this

is it. And that was so depressing to me. And I think what was interesting is then when I actually had employment, even just for like six months, I totally got it. It didn't work for me. I could not manage it because to say to somebody, oh, I'm sorry, I've actually got two hospital appointments that week, or I've actually got this, it didn't work. He still ends up in hospital quite a lot and stuff. So to be constantly apologizing to somebody, it didn't work. So to be able to grow something where I'm my own boss,

it's all about controlling the controllables. I can't control this situation. I can control the fact that I can still give my boys a life like I did where there's always Music on in the house where we are having friends over, you know That's like I say like like we are the house that everybody comes to and I wanted that like for him So he's always got like, you know got another two for a sleepover tomorrow And it's like it is what it is like you're always gonna be the house that

That hosts but he's so resourceful like he'd never been for a sleepover until six months ago And it is what it is. Like you're always going to be the house that hosts. But he's so resourceful. Like he'd never been for a sleepover until six months ago. And he said to me, mom, I really want to try. And I said, OK, let's think about how we can make this work. So he went to his friend, Nico's house. And his mom was the most amazing accommodating woman ever. Nico learned how to put on his ventilatorator because he wears a ventilator at night.

Nico learnt how to help him in all sorts of ways. I just thought this is the most extraordinary child ever. Like, this is amazing. Obviously, we're checking all the time with the mum, are you comfortable with this and stuff? But he's got the best friends ever. They're just so great with him. And he had to sleep in his chair because they can't get him into a bed, but his chair put tips back and he did it and he loved it. And

imagine if I'd said to him, no, sorry, it's just not appropriate. You can't do it. So he's going to have situations where he'll probably end up sleeping in his chair after going to a gig, after doing all of those things, but that is, but he wants to do it and so it's just to us to try and support him to do it really. Yeah, and I guess you're encouraging him to have the same mindset that you did when that woman said you'll never work. Yeah. Well, maybe I won't do it the way you're thinking of it, but maybe if I do it the way I'm thinking of it I can do things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think I'm somebody who feeds off other people's energy. So like, I love the fact that, you know, I've gone into a job where really I feel like my cup is being filled all the time because I'm with these amazing women. So that means that I'm able to just give so much back to the family, which is, which is great. And yeah, we have a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun, it's chaos but you know. I don't ask it where I can feel that. Well I want to say thanks to all the people who featured in this as well. I'm thinking about your dad, he sounds incredible. I would feel very moved if that many people turned up for anyone I know's funeral. That's incredible.

So there's him. Your mom sounds amazing. Yeah, she's incredible. She really is. She does sound amazing. Yeah, she's been rock. I thought maybe she could be a good guest. I should have a book on her.

She's quite extraordinary. I can sense that. Your brothers sound cool. Alex, of course. Alfie and Charlie and Freddie. But mainly you, right? I'm so happy we had this conversation. I'm so happy.

Firstly, I want to be one of the ones with the visor in Miami. Alfie and Charlie and Freddie. But mainly you, right? I'm so happy we had this conversation. Firstly, I want to be one of the ones with the visor in Miami. That sounds cool. Or running into the sea, I'm open to either. But also I think we have to finish with onwards and upwards. What a motto that is. Onwards and upwards! How lovely is Ro? How lovely. I know, but remember don't put them back in the sock drawer, put them in the bin because

they're done. We have to get better socks. Sorry. Sorry, I got interrupted there by holes in socks. That's Kit, 16. Can we actually go? Yes, I'm about to take my six-year-old and my nine-year-old to their school, Summer Fate. But before any of that, I want to say thank you to Ro. And honestly, that story about her dad's funeral and the onwards and upwards just gives me chills

when I think of it. Canyon! Oh my gosh, that's my children. But also, what a lovely woman Ro is and how brilliant the community she's built. Really special. Can you actually stop? Some people have a lot to deal with, don't they? But she's still a very positive person

who's built something wonderful out of it. Anyway, I don't know why I pressed record at this point. This is a silly moment to press record. I'm going off to the school fete. I've already, I donete. I've already been through a few bits and bobs this Saturday morning. It's so hot, everybody's a bit scratchy. Thank you very much for listening. I've got another lovely guest for you next week. Ray, you coming? Come on darling, it's time to go. Shh, Mickey. Everybody's a bit high tension. That's the vibe here this Saturday. Yeah, thank you to Ray for talking to me. Thank you for declare Jones for producing rich for editing

Ella May thinking of you I know you're desperate to come back to work. You just had a baby and I will send you the artwork next week Yes, bring your zip card for sure Thanks Richard for editing and Mainly obviously you lending me your ears once more. I think we've got two more left of the series or one more. Oh my little brain. Maybe just one actually.

It's flowing by. But thanks for such a nice time with this series and I'm starting to compile the next one. I don't know when I'll get it recorded, that is the honest truth, because I'm working a bit and then it's August when we've got holidays. So it might be a bit... oh, there she goes. Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks so much, have a lovely day. Yes, we're going. Oh, last one up, please shut the door. Ellie!

Have I got Jessie? Jess? She's probably outside. Great, okay. All right, bye to everyone. Bye, Dom. See you later. Bye to you. Thanks for watching!