Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 16: Jessie Cave

Episode Date: November 23, 2020

This week I'm talking to Jessie Cave, writer, performer, cartoonist and soon-to-be author. She's an ex-national tennis player, she's played Lavender Brown in Harry Potter, and she refuses to be pigeon-holed. She shares with me the terrible, recent impact of losing her brother. She also shares the amazing story of getting pregnant after a one-night stand with comedian Alfie Brown. At the time of recording she was just about to have her third child with him - they now have baby Abraham (Bam for short), 4 year old Margot and 6 year old Donnie. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello to you. You're looking lovely today. How are you? You're right, I do sound pretty upbeat. It's because I've got this beautiful sunshine that's coming in through the window it's Sunday afternoon and it's gorgeous out there I'm going to take the kids out in a minute it's a really

sparkling day I love autumn days like this that sunshine is actually really gorgeous it's actually pretty hot um it's going to force me to go outside which is a good thing I spent all of yesterday indoors I've had a very lazy weekend following about two weeks of quite intense promotion for my new album which is called songs from the kitchen disco so it's a thing close to my heart as it was inspired by the kitchen discos that we had around here but I must confess it's a mixed bag doing promotion when you're basically at home all the time because on the one hand it's much more convenient but on the other it stops the things you're doing having that much space

so you end up cramming that in amongst still trying to get on with stuff at home. So yeah, I think I found it pretty tiring but I'm also very relieved because the album did well and I could feel my shoulders drop a couple of inches on Friday when we finally had a chart position and everybody who's been part of the release was relaxed and happy and celebrating rather than asking me to do more stuff. That's good. And big thanks to my management, Derek and Sabira, who've worked really hard because it's actually quite a small operation that gets behind me when I put albums out

because I've been bringing them out on my own label for the last, oh, I think it's four releases now. That's exciting. label for the last oh I think it's four releases now that's exciting um I've just realized though while I'm thanking my management that the chances of Derek hearing that thank you are teeny tiny I do not think Derek has listened to any of my podcasts that's fine he's probably not my target demographic you know talking about uh raising young family and being someone who feels like you've got a lot on the go with family and work as his children are quite grown up really but also I don't know maybe I'm underestimating him maybe Derek has been a keen listener and he's just kept it quiet so Derek if

you are listening why don't you come and phone me and I will buy you anything you want off your Amazon wish list or you know an extra special Christmas present. You only have to say that you heard this message. And I will just ramp up whatever it is I'm going to get you for Christmas. Purely by you just acknowledging you listen. What do you think the chances are? It's pretty tiny. Pretty teeny tiny.

Anyway, this week's guest is lovely Jessie Cave. Two things. One, she's probably the person who lives arguably the closest to me. She's only about a 10-minute walk from me. And also the only other person I've spoken to where she's been pregnant at the time of recording. Not the only other. There is no other. She is the only person I've spoken to while she's been having a baby. And she very much was having a baby.

She's about three weeks from having a little boy abraham who is now safely and happily in the world and uh jesse was yeah about to drop and we had a lovely conversation all about the many things she's doing she's just finished a book her first work of fiction she's also a keen cartoonist artist she did a one woman show at edinburgh called sunrise which is really witty all about the time that she wasn't with the father of her children alfie brown the comedian they are now back together again having their third baby they already have a little boy and a little girl who are six and four uh they got together they uh realized they were having a baby after a one

night stand there's lots of stuff we talk about we also talk about grief because very sadly jesse lost her brother last year so she's very open about that yeah it was a really great chat i really enjoyed our company we'd never met before but we got on really well and i had a lovely time speaking to her and all the things she gets up to and i love her creativity she's clearly someone with a lot going on in her head and acts on all the impulses her home is really beautiful and light and bright and I think you're going to want her too so thanks very much for finding me here and uh Derek just say the word and I will get you an extra special Christmas present for acknowledging you listen to my podcast as we are chatting you are now three weeks away from having your third baby yeah i hope it's two

weeks because i just got so much to do so yeah how's it all going because i see that you've had a very important day yesterday where you hit a deadline for a book yeah that's phenomenal well it's so weird this whole period of time because I got the book deal last April so I've been working on it since then but obviously as in April last year so 2019 so I've been working on it slowly since then then I sped up towards the end of last year and then I had a little bit of a break doing other stuff and then I started really working on it from just before I got pregnant so the baby's been there the entire time kind of inside me um and then obviously the the you know coronavirus happened so the whole book gestation and pregnancy has been within this really strange period of time along with grief with my brother last year so it's been just such a weird couple

of years almost now yeah of just all of this stuff happening like really big life stuff whilst the biggest stuff in my career has happened so it it's bizarre. My mum always said when we were growing up, whenever anything happened, she would always be like, well, you know, you just, the bar keeps, the bar keeps rising. You just have to keep, you just have to keep, you know, I think that's what she said. But something like, you know, the more that happens,

the better you are at coping. Okay. So I think that I've... That that I was reassuring yeah it is reassuring I think I've just learned that you um because so many people have said to me like why are you taking on this why are you doing this why are you doing a podcast why are you doing a book why are you trying to do all of you know why you're having another baby um but actually I I just can't see another way of working or being. Well I actually I mean we haven't met before today but I saw you on on TV and I do feel there's a little bit of a kindred spirit in that because I have a habit of taking on lots and lots of stuff and then thinking I'll figure out later how I'll actually get this all done and I sort of feel like one day I'm going to look back

on like the last sort of I don't know 10 years of my life and think, wow, that looks so exhausting. I'm so sorry I'm going through all that. But finishing a book is a really big deal, especially with all those other, as you say, big life events happening. Is this a work of fiction then? Yeah, well, it's the first time I've written fiction, but it's inspired by my relationship with Bebe, who's my sister, who I work a lot with.

But it's quite a long story but basically so our brother died last march and we were starting to work together before that on a live show so um um but we hadn't we hadn't really written our show yet and we were going to edinburgh and everything and that was the plan for the next couple of years really of doing a big show with her like comedy um not a play but a weird show that I usually do but with her now and then Ben died and it all it just all collapsed but the only thing that the weird thing is looking back the only thing that was I was sure of was that I needed to keep working because I think if I'd stopped for a second, I wouldn't have been able to do anything.

So I was doing my show called Sunrise at the time, which had done really, really well. And it was, I was like, it sounds so stupid to say, but like I was on tour with it and I was coming back to finish the tour at the Soho Theatre. I'd had like four runs at the Soho Theatre. I'd had like four runs at the Soho Theatre. The tour had sold out.

I'd done really well. I remember being in Manchester for my final show there before I was going back to do the Soho Theatre the next day. And I took a selfie in the mirror. And I remember thinking, this is the happiest I've ever been. Like, this is the top of my game. I feel like I've reached where I want to get right now in my career. I'm happy with my progress and happy with life and felt really good. And then two days later it happened. And so I was at the Soho Theatre.

It was my second night back. And we found out like midnight on Thursday and um I mean it sounds it sounds mad to to record this but I so Friday morning after you know the the horror of that night found out in the morning and I remember thinking because I had another week and a half left of my run and I also needed the money and I just remember thinking I have to do my show tonight I have to do my show tonight when my brother just died you know and I couldn't tell anyone because if if you say to somebody this happened last night and I'm doing a show, a one-woman show tonight, you would look like you're the most horrible, insane, callous person.

But so I couldn't tell anyone. My mom, though, this just shows how amazing she is. She was like, absolutely, absolutely. You know, she had us to deal with. She had everything to deal with. She was like, I was like, I need to do this. I can't. If I don't do the show tonight was like I was like I need to do this I can't if I don't do the show tonight then I won't be able to do it again no well I completely relate to a lot that but also I don't think anyone would think it was horrible I think they'd think

that it's shock because how on earth do you process that well it was shock and I don't remember one thing all I was told is that I was better because I was obviously so focused that I wasn't letting anything in so I wasn't letting anything the audience did or I wasn't letting any superstition in or anything I was just it was it was a survival thing I needed to get through the hour and get home um so and I think that built me up to be able to survive until now with the grief and stuff and it also made sure that the treadmill that I was on right then with my career it's kind of it's meant that I've just kept going because and and some people say oh it's stupid you should stop and you should have a break and whatever but like I have I mean I don't work all the time at all but like I I think if I hadn't have gone on that night to do the show to finish the run to then keep working with BB build the show which was

then founded on grief and our relationship and became complete therapy for us um and continue to be so we did it in Edinburgh and then we did it throughout the autumn and we were building up to do the big show in March and then Edinburgh this year and then all of this happened so we then then I started writing the book alongside all of this um and then the pandemic happened our shows were cancelled suddenly and um it became about what do I, what do I do now to make a living, and what's my, I think what I've always done, because I never planned to do any of the stuff that I'm doing, I never had a plan in what I wanted to do when I was older or anything, I think it's just like, what's the, what's the thing that I can do right now, that I can do to the best of my ability, and then what's, what's the opportunity that comes?

And I've learned to kind of get rid of the hope of somebody giving me something. So I don't expect anyone to give me a job, which very rarely happens anyway, so that's good that I don't expect that. So it's just basically been this treadmill. And so yesterday handing in the book feels like, and the book is all about the relationship. It's about two sisters um and one of

them dies and um it's it's basically inspired by ben but it's me and bb it's it's our relationship but it's complete fiction it's not me it's not her but it's a sister's two sisters who are so close and it's about you know my worst fear if that would that would be my worst fear now that I have an inkling of the the pain with Ben um I just was in such a I was in such a perfect place to write something about that trauma um so even though it is it is based on reality it is complete fiction so it's been incredibly therapeutic but it was so funny because I handed in yesterday and my mum was like you're gonna have a migraine you're gonna have you're gonna have a big headache today so because because they she's had the kids all week as I as I finish which has just been amazing and um I was meant to get them back last night and she was like just don't just not just just

get them back tomorrow just because I think you might have you know a bit of a calm down and obviously I did and I didn't sleep all night. But it's just like, I feel like I'm at the end of this, and I feel ready to have this baby. Yeah. Hopefully. But you know as well, I think, I mean, it's nowhere near as tragic, but my stepdad died only two months ago. So, you know, I know a little bit about that, the way it feels to grieve someone when their death is really, really significant. And actually, I don't think anyone has the right to tell you how to grieve or what timescale it should follow or how it presents.

And, you know, the day that John died in the morning, my brother and sister and I went back to my mum's house. And like you, we're a very close family. my brother and sister and I went back to my mum's house and like you were a very close family and the first thing my mum did was put in an online supermarket delivery because she realised that Jack and Martha were going to be staying over so you know the day that happened she was immediate into like right let's get the kids make sure there's food tonight and she was cooking supper and all these things and I think you know it sounds a bit like your mum used to go into that mode of like well I still want to nurture the people but I do feel sometimes like there should be a word in the English language for you have your own grief but then that heartbreaking feeling of seeing someone you love really sad and

not being able to fix it and you've obviously had to watch your mum go through something still going through something that's just you can't alleviate it no and that's i think that's the the trouble with people people misunderstand grief a lot because so much of the time death is natural it doesn't happen suddenly it's not a young person it's not a shock it's a lot of deaths are kind of easier to comprehend than a sudden yeah there's there's death with sadness, but not trauma. Yeah. Tragedy. What happened with your brother is tragic.

Yes. So it's kind of, we found throughout, you know, I've read so many books on death now. I kind of, I know about what I should do, what I shouldn't be doing. And actually it means nothing because, and no one can say anything to make me feel better. No one can say anything to my mum to make me feel better, her feel better, or my brothers and my sisters. You know, it's, it's our, we're, we've basically had to accept that this is our

life sentence now. And the only way through is to keep going. And we're not going to have, you know, a period of grief and then we'll move on and we'll see the light and we'll be fine. It's, this is the way it is. And it's been brutal. That's that's a horrible realization. But the sooner you accept that, the sooner you can make the most of your life. Yeah, well, I think sometimes when someone you love dies, it makes you want to be you have to keep being your best version of yourself for them to you know, you're still here, you're still doing things. And actually, for your mom and her understanding of you doing your show and continuing, she probably thought, I reckon,

she knows you inside out, she probably thinks, I recognise in Jessie her need, that's how she's going to deal with it. Well, also because she's so involved with every aspect of my work. So she makes my whatever, she makes my props, she makes my, so I always have, you know, sewn backdrops for everything I do.

And she's always been essentially my assistant. Which is amazing, by the way. She runs my doodle shop. She's like literally works full time for me. I pay her. Does she work as well still? Because she's a GP right now. No, because after Ben was born, so that was the third, she stopped.

But because me and Robbie were older, and we were kind of very competitive tennis players, her full-time job was taking us to tournaments and competing. Wow. So she ever since, and you know what it's like with five. It's a business. It's very difficult to have a normal job with five kids especially with such a span in age range so she she her job was our manager essentially and she still is all of us she's heavily involved in every aspect of our lives so and with my she literally is my I mean my employee

so um I wouldn't be able to earn money if she wasn't helping me. So it's all related. So with this week, she's been looking after the kids because she knows that I need to finish this and also knows what it's like having kids in the house and trying to work at the same time isn't necessarily the best thing for the kids. I mean, I wanted them here.

I would have easily, you know, well, I wouldn't have easily. I would have been, you know, horrible. But I would have preferred to have them in the house with me downstairs, knowing they're asleep in the house, than have them out the house. But that's not good for them. So if you'd been working here, you would have been doing it at night, do you think? Yeah, I'd been working at night as well. But, you know, the bedtime saga. So, like, I can't, I would have got, but, you know, the bedtime saga.

So, like, I can't, I would have got to work, you know, two hours later than I would have on normal nights. It's just a way of her making sure that I can get as much work in in the final week. And, but she's, so the fact that she, you know, that I went on to do the show the next night, she would have been there with me. Usually she came to every show. She set up everything for me she was so the fact that she couldn't come to that show was also a big deal that night yeah but you know by the next week she was there I mean it was completely different obviously and it was a completely different show by that point because it was now a different world

we were living in but um and and that's the that's the that's the horrible blunt truth now is that I live in a different world. It's like, I now have an understanding of, you know, how awful it can be. And then also the fact that Donny and Margot were only, so Margot was two, was she two? So she's just turned four. So it was last March. So basically Donny had just turned four yeah was

four-ish and margo was two-ish three-ish so they were so they had no idea um and actually i think that saved all of us because we had to keep you know pretending for them i know that some people all of the books say that's not a good thing. All of the books say, be honest with children and all that. I don't care what they say because right there and then I was like, I cannot tell them this has happened because if I tell them, then every single time I look at them and they're having a tantrum or they're a bit sad at a play club or something, I'll look and I'll watch them and I think I've made them sad.

Whereas I want to know for, I want to just keep pretending for a little bit at a play club or something I'll look and I'll watch them and I think I've made them sad whereas I want to know for I want to just keep pretending for a little bit that they can be kind of blissful kids yeah so I've tried to keep that up for as long as possible but they definitely have an understanding but um well they pick up on things anyway but they might I mean especially a sadness of their their mum that's it's often quite hard for them to not be aware of it but maybe because of what happened to your brother as well maybe they don't want to be thinking about the possibility of accidents and unexpected dark things that's quite a big thing when you're small isn't there I'm just trying to keep like not thinking about that kind of side of things but

I think that I've tried to kind of keep the the best thing about young children is that I just find them so joyful all the time. Yeah, definitely. So it's been just such an alleviation. And I think if my mum hadn't had them and if Bebe hadn't had them and if our family hadn't had them around to kind of keep being happy for, I think it would have been a horrible period of time. It's been a horrible period of time anyway, but at least we've had these kind of moments of like amazing joy and.

Yeah, no, they're definitely, there's such a tonic. And actually, um, I, when my, after my grandpa died, I had my fourth baby because it felt like, I remember when I was in the, the church was funeral. I thought there's, there's some of your life really is who loves you and who, you know, who you loved. And that's kind of it, actually. There's not really, you know, there's all the practical side of things. And, you know, maybe there's big sweeping things you can do

that would leave a mark off your ancestors and things. But actually, the sum of a life really is, I mean, I think it comes down to love, really. Yeah, it's definitely made, I've got to have perspective now that I didn't have. And that comes down to work too. Yeah. And then on top of that with the virus and stuff, I've just kind of thought, oh, what actually matters?

Like, why am I working? Why am I doing these things? Why, I don't need to do that. And with Ben, it's like, I don't need to see that person today. I don't particularly like that, but why is that person in my my life like yeah it makes you a lot more simplistic about things um black and white I you know I don't need to do that job I don't need to fight for that I don't need that extra tiny bit of money to to to do something for my career that actually it won't do when I could be spending time with the people that I love yeah you think a bit more about your soul don't you

in that way and what's good for you in that way. And I think that's partly as well, I mean, in my case, a lot of that's been growing up as well, and just trying to stop being such a people pleaser with saying yes to things that actually I end up thinking, why have I done this? This isn't even making me feel better for it. And it's lovely if you can ever turn down, as you say,

a bit of money for things where you think, I'm just going to walk away feeling kind of grubby. I mean, that's a luxury I don't always have but sometimes i do think something okay yeah hopefully no one will notice but i've noticed even lately with um i don't know what to call it the virus the you know this period of time where everybody for performers every performer is desperate right now we're all in the same boat we all cannot go and do shows we all have a have a different way of survival now yeah financially and it's meant that the stuff like online things and the way we put ourselves out there has changed it's become a free-for-all on online and it's

just I find it really interesting because you can see the truth coming out about what these people need they they need they need to perform to you yeah it's not that they just wanted to go and do a gig that night they wanted they needed to go and do a gig that night it's so true and actually in a way it's been quite reassuring for me because you know I've been very lucky that my work's been fairly consistent in terms of the gigs I do and all this kind of thing it's become quite a predictable shape of my year and the fact I miss it in such a fundamental way it's actually really it's really nice it's like sort of you know being in love with what you do properly like oh no I

really need it yeah I don't it's not just you know dates in the diary and all the kerfuffle of what happens with work it's like a thing that really satisfies me and I've missed so much of work just in terms of my own ability to recalibrate my head. Yeah. So I've had to find other ways to do it. Yeah, everyone has. Yeah. But that's also, because I'm not a natural performer at all, and I don't, all of the shows I've done have been very unique, like little, quirky, tiny comedy shows, really.

Whereas Alfie, he's a stand-up comedian. That's his day job, night job. And that's been stripped from him in this period of time. And it's been so amazing to watch that slow realization that something he loves is gone. It's been horrible. And it makes everyone more humble and appreciative of when it comes back. But then it comes back in a completely different way

because then he's starting to do little gigs again and they're completely different it's a different time yeah I know so it's actually kind of so many parallels with grief this whole period of time yeah so and then on top of that being pregnant it's been like just slightly mad like for my mental stability but I mean yeah I I don't really I don't have any kind of longings for I wish this wasn't happening or I mean obviously I wish that this wasn't happening I understand yeah I'm not glad coronavirus um but yeah I I don't I just kind of I'm not kind of overly nostalgic about things like and I kind of I'm such a horrible realist now that it's kind of, okay, right, this is the situation. We have to just try and make the best of it.

Yeah. And then you'll have a new baby and then the new babies come new beginnings. And that always feels, that's always a lovely thing. Own each step with Peloton. From their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in.

Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes, led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running but i don't know were you are you a hopeful person in pregnancy because i'm i'm not so when you were pregnant did you so say when you were six months pregnant did you think okay in three and a half months i'm going to have a baby sitting next to me no i think you always have to sort of feel like you've got to put in parenthesis if everything goes to plan everything works out now so many people don't yeah no I mean I never bought anything for any baby when I've been pregnant yeah yeah so when my first baby was born early I was really

freaked out because I didn't even have like socks for him or nappies or anything I had nothing yeah um and in fact so when you had your first baby this is another parallel I think so you've slightly beat me on a timeline because I'd only been going out with Richard for six weeks when I found out I was having a baby but for you and Alfie how you literally the first night we had sex I got pregnant I mean literally within hours of like being at a pub I was pregnant there was three of you yeah so I mean. But it's amazing. I think it, yeah, it's, it's a completely different relationship to a couple who've gone out for a couple of years. Yeah. Oh yeah. Decided to maybe get engaged, maybe get married, maybe think about starting to have kids. They have all that time

together. It's like, that's a luxury we have never had. We've never not had a baby in the same room or in me yeah it's just been the way it is and and it's even even because little things like I have a I have a extreme snore like I snored to such an extent that you couldn't if I was sleeping in this room you could hear me upstairs it's so bad so we've never really been able to sleep together well it's always been a thing where you know if we want to have sex, we have to like make a plan. And then on top of that with a baby. So we've got this extremely bizarre relationship where we seem to keep having children, but

we don't have a relationship, which is like by any stretch normal. And the fact that we've had to go on a gradient, like within, I didn't tell him until I was four months pregnant with Donny because I was terrified were you dating through that time no no no we didn't see each other I didn't literally we had the one night stand yes it is exactly like the new movie we basically had that night together and then two weeks later I was like I I don't something's going on but because I have polycystic ovaries, there was no chance I was pregnant. I just was like, there's no way.

I haven't had a period since November. Like, there was just no way. But I was. And my mum, I rang my mum, like, three weeks after this one-night stand, which I thought was a one-night stand. And I said, I'm just feeling so tired. And my boobs hurt. And she was like, you're pregnant. And I was like, there is no way I'm just feeling so tired and I my boobs hurt and she was like you're pregnant and I

was like there is no way I'm pregnant there is no way and she's like just going to the pregnancy test I walked down to Tesco I got a pregnancy test walked back up 10 minutes later I was pregnant I rang her um like the swearing involved from her was just amazing and um and and this is all tied in with work and everything because I was just I just had a recall for a job at the National Theatre which would have been like a dream come true situation um and I so the next morning after finding out I was pregnant I had to walk to have this big audition with the other actor and it would have been it would have been like a complete if I'd got that job and I'd done that job my whole career would have been completely different I would have been a it would have been like a complete if I'd got that job and I had done that job my whole career would have been completely different I would have been an actress when I'm

not an actress but anyway so I remember standing on the bridge outside the National Theatre and thinking I can't get this job because I want this baby I desperately and the job would have been as I give birth it would have been so you already knew that you were committed to I was already like right I'm having this you know even if even if I I wasn't still like a hopeful person I still wasn't sure that I would have you know be okay but I was like if I can't go in and get this job because if I get the job I'll have an abortion and I couldn't have done that anyway I don't think but I was like I don't want that dilemma so I went into the of the National Theatre and it was a very traditional job. And I put like heavy turquoise eyeliner.

Like heavy, heavy feline turquoise eyeliner and pink lip gloss. And usually I don't wear my glasses for acting auditions because I don't want them to think, you know. So I took my, I put my big glasses on. I went in looking like a, like a mad person. And they, after the first two times they'd seen me, very traditional English, like rose type hair down, I went in with my hair in the top bun, a bandana around me, my turquoise eyeliner, just to sabotage myself. And then the director looked at me like he was scared

and didn't ask me to take my glasses off because they obviously had decided that I already didn't have the job. And I did really badly in the read as well. I pretended I couldn't pronounce a really simple word. That's a funny idea. Why did you just not turn up? Just going along but being really punk about it. Yeah, I should have. I should have not turned up.

I think it's brilliant. It's like a joke game with yourself like yeah we go so basically then I didn't get a job but then I got another filming job and again this is the first job I'd had it was like bizarre how the universe decides to like give you things when you probably shouldn't be getting those things right now because your body can't handle it or your mind can't handle it. And so I had this first job on an E4 series, and it was the first recurring role. It was a really big deal for me. And again, I'd had the audition before I was pregnant, but I'd got the job.

Is that sound okay, do you think? Okay, cool. So again, I got the job. I was due to start filming in April by this point I would have been four months pregnant and again I just was like I need this job I need this job and it would have gone on filming till I was seven months pregnant so I thought if I can just get one day on camera then they can't cut me it was just which is actually illegal well it's not legal for you to think like that no exactly so I turned out being like I could

just not know I could just not know yeah so I got on camera I did the first day but then I had I thought I'm gonna get sent to prison I'm gonna get I'm gonna get sued so I I told the producer on the after the first day and he had luckily just had a baby and he was like it's fine it's fine I was like but I'm gonna be like quite heavily pregnant by the end of the series. And it's, I'm playing a teenager. Like I don't think it's appropriate. And he was like, no, it's fine. And you just kind of realize, oh, people just, the bait, you can still work.

You can just, people just, you think it's going to be, change your entire life. But it's actually, you can still do a lot of stuff. You can. And also, you know, the thing of you turning up and putting on the eyeliner and leaving your glasses on stuff, there might have been a part of you that thought, I'm not sure I want to be this sort of traditional, maybe that's not quite me anyway.

Because if you wanted to do that, you could have done the audition or waited and then gone back to those kind of jobs after you have a baby. But maybe part of you wanted to sabotage it also for yourself too. I think so. Because I don so because I don't think I would have actually been happy doing this is what I'm really like you still want me now you know it's like it's like a confrontational but in like a really fun way

yeah it was fair it was actually one of the most extreme things I've ever done in acting wise but yeah that world doesn't really suit me anymore and but because of that it meant that I kept thinking okay I can have a baby and work they can have a baby and work whereas I think so many people especially I think as you get older now because now I'm 33 and friends are finally considering thinking about having a baby only just thinking about it no no it was my third at 33 as well and it was the first time any of my friends had had a baby at the same time as me. It's nice.

It's funny, like, oh, wow, people get it. Yeah, exactly. Oh, it just didn't happen at the first, like, because I got pregnant at 26. So, like, I was, and I was so delayed as well. I kind of felt very immature at that age. No one, I have no friends who have babies. It's finally, like, okay, I might I might have one like who has a baby the same age as me maybe my brother finally is my older brothers might be having a baby like so

it's just it's just weird it's just kind of but but they all have delayed it and delayed it and delayed it because they think oh I'm gonna get that job or I'm gonna I want to get I don't want to be I don't want to be cast as a as a as a mom that had to hide the fact that I have a baby. There doesn't seem to be much out there online, by online I mean Instagram, that's positive parenting, like positive, I don't know how to say it, that's encouraging of how you can have a baby and work and be okay.

Like you can't have one or the other you can have both and I don't think there's very many role models out there apart from people like you who make it seem like you can have a nice parenting experience and also a nice career experience there is a possibility yeah I think some of it as well takes a bit of time because I think I get I get a lot more done now and when I had like the last few babies because I felt like more confident but I think with my first it was like it really um I had to rethink everything and find myself again a little bit really and I think I did feel quite unsure about which aspects of my work were still incorporated especially if you do something like pop music or acting where your your you know physicality and all you know

yours you know the sort of ethos of who you are is so much part of that as well and I think certainly in pop I felt like being a mum was like really not good for business in a lot of ways and also that period of time so you're 24 and what year was that uh so that would have been 2004 is when i had sunny so a horrible period of time i think of because i i 2005 2006 um so i would have been like 15 16 like i just the the images were seen and the the role models we had at that period of time within pop music were just so destructive that it's such a different world now yeah it is a different world it's got much kinder and accepting and less like you have to be um a barbie doll to to be successful type thing on in in in in as an actress and as a pop star so I think that that would have been really hard yeah and I think I think as well like now we've got much better at seeing I think there are more

people that are having kids a bit younger or having them, you know, I mean, high profile people and sort of sweeping them up along for the ride. And you think, okay, that makes me, you know, feel reassured. But at the time I felt like I couldn't think of anyone in my world that was having a baby. And I felt like maybe it was something where, yeah, people were a bit like, oh, you're a mum now. So, you know, the Radio 1 world is really not going to be for you because that's for young people and how can they possibly find anything relatable if you're going home to a kid and you know and people make comments like that straight from the get-go where they go like oh you're screaming baby at home or you know with the pregnancy oh you're swollen ankles and all this and as it happened I did get really swollen at the end as well which

really annoying you know it does kind of shake you to your core i think because it's such a like big deal and so when you were going out with when did you tell alfie then four months so i told him i had started filming this job so i was safe i was like okay i've got got enough money i've got my own stuff together i don't need him i obviously liked him and i think we would have gone on a second date if i hadn't got pregnant but by this point i was like i need to hide it until i know that I'm, you know, you're out of the risk of miscarriage so much. Because I was like, it'd be so embarrassing if I have a miscarriage.

I've told him we have this kind of like, you know, emotional, intense, weird, semi-breakup when we were never going out type thing. Because it bonds you so much when you know someone's pregnant with your child. Like I just, even though he didn't know, I was like looking him up on Facebook. I, you know, heard things about him and I felt connected to him because I had his child in me. So I was, it was such a strange period of time. But I basically said, once I know I'm safe, well, I feel safe. So I was like 16 weeks, I think.

I'll tell him. So I, I text him saying saying I think that we should talk and because he was funny he he immediately texts back pregnant or diseased and I was like oh great so now I can't even surprise him um so I was like ha ha ha no ha ha ha but then he he obviously was then scared because you haven't heard from a girl in like three and a half months what why does she want to talk um so he's actually really funny straight away so I um so I just thought well if you're going to be that blunt I'll be blunt so I just sent him a photo of the scan. Which is really, in retrospect, crazy.

I just like that if you've got disease, just go, one of them, yes. I'll leave you hanging. Four to five minutes. I should have done that. That's what I should have done. I should have said, well, I'll let you know tomorrow. It was the day of his birthday. He was 27 the next day, and he was having a party. So I'd sent him the day of his birthday it was like he was 27 the next day and he was having a party so I'd sent him the photo the scan he thought it was a joke I think but I was like no

I'm having a baby I'm calling at BAM um I it's a boy I'm due in October and he waited for a little bit before he applied which was understandable and um he was like right right okay and I was all over text yes all over no one's actually phoning no I can't phone I don't phone and also I was in Hungerford and there was no signal so the text all went through in a in the wrong order so he was he was very confused and then um so basically then the next night he was having like a drinks thing so I he was like well do you want to come I didn't want to go in because that would have been so I waited outside the pub for him he came out and he basically had thought about it over that day and he just he did a monologue, saying how he wanted to be involved and he was excited and please let him be involved

and all of this stuff. It was beautiful and immediately reassuring. And I mean, I would never have not let him be involved, obviously. And I had always liked him. I always advanced him. So it wasn't like I had to get on board with that. So it was really nice. but he was so scared he was so scared of kind of what in you know what would we would do so we had a scan for the 20 week one and he came with me and he held my hand which I found really awkward

and um and then throughout the the next half of the pregnancy we started to kind of date and then on the day he was born donnie um alfie said he loved me which was very nice but he still hadn't called me his girlfriend so it's been very weird the whole thing and it's meant that we have a i don't trust him i still don't trust him and we broke up for a year and a bit almost two years actually when Margot was only 10 weeks old because I think we were so so scared we were suddenly so much had happened yes um but Donnie Donnie lived with my mum and me and BB and my other brother Jamie when he was born so Alfie came Alfie stayed most nights but we've we've always been like a communal type family so um Alfie's had to just get on board with that and come in and be swooped up by us

does he have a big family too or is he quite not particularly no so um yeah so we've just always done things slightly odd but then when we moved in together when Donny was like nine months it suddenly kind of got real it was something like here we have we're a couple we have a baby so you moved in just after donny was born no like when donny was 10 months so and then it all started to get very real and like the the reality of working with a very young baby without my mom on hand because she would be living with us so yeah the fact that she was now time suddenly even though she was only across the road um it suddenly we start to fight a lot more because I was I was a little less relaxed than I am now and I'm still by no means relaxed but I was way worse so I think I was quite intense and he was quite still

immature and then and then the breakup was actually the best thing that's ever happened So I think I was quite intense and he was quite still immature. And then the breakup was actually the best thing that's ever happened. It was horrible. And I don't recommend it when you have two babies together. But it was actually really good because he learned so much. I learned so much. And then given what's happened lately, kind of think oh I'm actually quite nostalgic for that period of time because it was the last chance we've we might break up again I don't know but it it was the last chance we've had to kind of be us again just us single you know single people

because you have when I wasn't with the baby I was able to go out and date which I had never really done so it was kind of like a a glorified like being a teenager again just for a few months which was quite nice and and will never happen again so how long were you apart from each other then so like almost two years almost two years yeah and what caused you to get back together or did you or did you always have in your head like we'll get back together at some point well I thought we'd get back together immediately I thought like because I'm basically because I'd never been in a relationship before Alfie and then suddenly I was having a baby with him um you know I'd had little relationships but never like a proper relationship um so whenever I fought with him I would always jump to well

let's break up then like a child which I didn't realize is actually really destructive it's something you shouldn't do apparently um so he was always much more like you can't say that because if you say we're going to break up we you know it just it chips away at something so um but then the final straw happened and I you know I said it without really meaning it and it actually happened so it taught me it did teach me a lesson um your parents they still together no no I don't have very many I don't know many role models in relationships which and he doesn't either so his parents are divorced and so I think that probably didn't happen also he was married he got married at 24 didn't last long but I think that traumatized him slightly from commitment and I'd always known that so my insecurities were right okay I know he's not like

fully like a commitment type person so I'll make it seem like I'm not too to make him love me more but it didn't work that way um but yeah so I about six weeks after we broke up I was like so we'll probably get back together soon right I'd I'd moved out. So we were living like near each other, which was really awkward because Margot was tiny. Yeah, really little. So 10 weeks old, you said when you first moved. Yeah. But I'm very good.

My family's very good at a breakup. So my mum's very good at moving us out somewhere very quickly. So she immediately found me a flat very near Alfie's flat. Your mum sounds amazing, by the way. She's like... Sounds like she sort of does everything she literally does everything i know i mean it's it's it's quite funny but she basically was like no this is good this is good you should do this move me out and i was i don't

think i don't know if this is the right idea to have like an hour i had a year lease so i knew that i had to live apart from him for a year but by the end of that year lease we still hadn't got back together and I kind of got on board with the fact that he he was he was having a nice time having quite a nice time without me which is when I wrote this play about him and the women that he slept with in our break he had clocked them up but I think he I think it makes him sound quite bad that but I think that that's I I don't really judge him for that and I kind of I'm glad that he did in a way because it means that I feel a bit more confident now being back together that

he's chosen me this time well you've both chosen each other haven't you yeah and actually your play is brilliant I loved it I really loved it it's it's so embarrassing to think about like the fact that I was on stage and I shouted out to the audience like can you swear on this yes like said to the audience every night who fucked Alfie Brown in here because there's gonna be one of you there's definitely gonna be one of you and sometimes there was I mean literally he was a bit of a whore um so yeah it's quite embarrassing that I have that in play text I don't know though it seems to be the way that you I mean it's it's it's useful if you I think if you're a creative person and that's a useful outlet, and it's like you said about your podcast with your sister being like therapy,

it's all what works for you. And if you said that that time you looked back with nostalgia and it gave you something, you know, a place to be, and it was successful, and I think there's a lot about it that's really valid. Well, I think it gave people a sense of comfort that some relationships just aren't traditional. They go a different way.

And you can still love someone and not be together with them. You can have a baby with someone and be dating a 24-year-old at the same time. There's lots of different ways you can do things. You don't have to get married. You don't have to have a mortgage. We have very little stability in our relationship and it's still it's working right now because we both know that we've

chosen to be together and we love our kids yeah so it's just I think it gave people a bit of hope that it doesn't have to you don't have to follow these steps and if you don't do one of the steps you're not going to get tripped up it's okay yeah um so when you come to raise your kids as well that all their life choices that'll all inform how you help them with what they're doing too because sometimes um i mean like when you're talking about your your parents relationship and alfie's parents relationship and their divorce and sometimes i think with kids that have seen their parents split up, they can feel like all arguments lead to breakup. And that's quite common, actually, that thing of every time you were fighting going, well, we're probably going to break up from this. And it can make you very scared of conflict, actually, because you've seen what happens when people have conflict and then don't end up together.

But actually, there's also the flip, which is if you have a really very traditional, solid, happy family. Obviously, that's a wonderful thing, but it also means that the kids you can sometimes feel like how can I ever match up to that and if my relationship doesn't doesn't seem to be perfect all the way through it my maybe I can't live up to what my parents had so that can actually be be equally tricky so I think the fact that your kids will be able to have lots of very frank chats with you about things not being traditional will probably be really brilliant for them yeah I think I was thinking about that the other day, because we mean Alfie sometimes have quite heated chats, but not fights. But just, you know, we're joking with each other,

but it might seem like a fight to a six year old. And Donnie came into the kitchen was like, right, okay, stop, stop. And we're like, we're not fighting, Donnie, we're not fighting. And he was kind of acting as our, you know, mediator. And I was like, it's okay, we're like we're not fighting Donnie we're not fighting and um he was kind of acting as our you know mediator and I was like it's okay we're not we're not fighting um and he's kind of now grown up with us being very separate me and Alfie but also being very close so he's I think he's actually got quite a good I don't know I don't think he he doesn't assume that we're like he knows we're not married and he he doesn't because he stays so much with my mom and he's looked after by my sister and he's you know i think he's quite like i don't know i think he's already on understanding of of this the fact that we're not traditional yeah as long as kids feel safe they

can kind of cope with quite a lot of different you know their life home life can be quite different i think it's really about it's only if they feel unsafe that they get more worried i think yeah because some people say oh you shouldn't fight in front of your children and stuff like that and it's not that we're fighting but um i think actually it's good to see them adults have kind of you know intense discussions and i think it's i think there's yeah where I think people are quite scared of traumatising kids when they can get, you know, they're clever. Yeah, they're definitely clever.

Did you speak to them about when you had broken up with Alfie then? Well, they were so, Margo was like less than. Yeah, you're on the chat. And Donny was 18, was like two. So they just knew daddy was coming over or I was you know yeah it was

it was such a strange but they were obviously a bit older when you got back together so how did they did that just feel like a continuation of starting to

and then like just yeah because he'd always been there he'd always been so involved with kind of coming over and then we gradually

very slowly it was you know it was clear that he was there more and so it was just it was very seamless really the whole thing and what how come you did get back together then I just kind of I think I I it was just inevitable and it felt inevitable I think he had run his his kind spree, he had run its course. His spree. And I think that I had kind of done quite a good job of seeming like I was fine without him.

Because you'd had dates and things too, right? Yeah, I had a little relationship which was really good for me because it reminded me that I'm young and I could have a normal relationship and it was really good but it wasn't right. And so I think that we really gradually, in the same way that we got together very slowly when I was pregnant with Donnie,

we essentially echoed that with getting back together. And I am much more, I'm less uptight now in certain ways. I kind of am more forgiving of him in lots of ways. And I think because I have, I know what I want to do with my work and stuff. I'm quite self-sufficient, which I think is quite helpful sometimes within a relationship. And I don't get involved so much in his career, which again has been good for him so I think we just have grown up which has been nice and the fact that we're having another baby is is also like so nice because this time it's kind of properly planned um I mean we planned it the worst time but we've we've you know we we both want this so that's been really nice yeah

I don't think it's the worst time I think it's just an odd time isn't it with all the well I don't I don't know if I would have got pregnant if I'd known this was coming this pandemic it's been so I don't know he said he wouldn't have it feels like it's been very much part of the backdrop of everything yeah it's your pregnancy I got pregnant in February so just before oh yeah well that's exactly exactly mirrored it so you've got a very good idea of the chronology of the drop of everything yeah it's your pregnancy I got pregnant in February so just before oh yeah well that's exactly exactly mirrored it so you've got a very good idea of the chronology of the pandemic basically yeah you probably did it by week by week yeah I could but the whole first bit was in the you know the beginning of lockdown yeah exactly it was awful well at least you're not

missing going out drinking or something no but I've never been like that so it's kind of different whereas he has he misses that yeah yeah my husband misses pubs definitely which is like I don't have that at all in fact to be honest I've quite liked the fact that there's not like lots of latest things I should be seeing and doing I've quite enjoyed I don't really get FOMO in that way yeah so um so what's your the baby's how old's 18 not really a baby anymore yeah he's 20 months now so he's at that stage where he said it's a little bit of a sponge you know a bit of a parrot so he sort of says everything back and he's ever so sweet he's obsessed at the moment with uh seems to be many

shoes and cars and then then four uh yeah then four for jesse ray's eight uh kit is 11 and just started secondary school got his first attention tomorrow I'm so proud and Sunny's 16 so you've had nice gaps yeah so it's 5 years between the first 2 and then 3 years, 3 years, 3 years so a bit like the same you said in your family do you think you might end up with more children I just kind of, I don't know

I definitely always wanted to be a mother like that's what I've from but weirdly I've always wanted to be a mother. Like that's what I've, from, yeah. But weirdly, I've always known I wanted to be a mother and that's been my driving force really in life. But I always also know I wanted to do other things. So it's not like I, I don't know if that's really basic to say,

but I definitely would like more. I don't know whether I can squeeze them out of Alfie. But I would. I'll worry about that later. Yeah. Richard said no for the last few years. Really? I can squeeze them out of Alfie. I'll worry about that later. Yeah. Richard said no for the last few years. Really? I can work with that.

Okay, good. Hopefully. But the thing is, because I'm so superstitious, I'm like, okay, just get this one out. See how it goes. See what happens in the next year. See if we have another pandemic. See if I can earn any money.

And then think about it. But, you know, I'm just, I think the last year has taught me to just be grateful for I'm so grateful for what I have now yeah and I was always before like I've always been a fastidious diary keeper and you know not a gratitude journal because that I hate those two words together but um yeah that's not mine I bet I keep it really but I've definitely always kind of been very like this good thing happened today this good thing happened today like I or they said this today and and I'm so glad that I've kept that up because

it's reminded me that even in the hot most horrible periods time it's still there's still been such amazing things happening and such joyful things happening and I've been extremely happy since these awful things have happened too so it's just kind of taught me more about, okay, well, that's the human experience, really. Yeah, I mean, with the comedy and your art, are those things that you were doing before you had kids as well? Are these things that have sort of grown with? Yeah, I basically was always,

I went to art school and that's what I wanted. I wanted to be an illustrator. Then I got the job in Harry Potter when I dropped out of art school because I found it too hard because they were like, you can't draw. And I was like, well, I don't need to draw. You know, because at art school they're very much like, right,

try and change your style, learn this thing, learn this thing. And I had always known what my style was with drawing. So I like drawing cartoons. I like the way I draw. So I knew it wasn't for me. So I dropped out and I started doing like little bits of like trying to be an extra and thing you know any extra money I could get but not a normal job and then weirdly I got onto an agency that was kind of specializing

children it was like a kids acting agency um even though I was 19 and the third audition I ever had was Harry Potter which completely changed my life because then I was like okay well then I guess I guess I'm an actress now I guess I have to be an actress now even though I really didn't see myself in that way at all I'd never done that as a kid so I was then on this kind of treadmill

of being an actress auditioning but not getting jobs because I was always just a bit too weird. So by the time I was 24, I decided, OK, I need to do my own thing because if I I'm not I'm not an illustrator, I'm not getting money that way. I'm not an actress. I'm not getting money that way. What do I do? So I started doing YouTube videos and kind of comedy sketches with BB who by this time was like 14 13 and um and then I started doing shows and then because I was doing my own work and writing um I got more acting work so it's always been parallel and I had my first development deal for TV like writing when I was that age and this has also taught me a huge lesson I was in development for eight years with um with channel four for a for a thing I wrote and I spent that

long trying to write something for someone else and then it didn't ever get made and it just kind of taught me okay I I don't want to need anybody in my career anymore I mean I obviously have an amazing lovely agent but you feel quite self-sufficient essentially I'm trying to make my whole life as self-sufficient as possible because I know that I can make my own work and also that we're so lucky now even though it's a horrible time we're incredibly lucky because there's more opportunity for us to make our own money online and to find ways of creating and to involve the audience and so I'm kind of up for that and I quite like that and even with the book even though it's like a traditional

book that's going out in shops I'm excited about promoting it in a different way and involving people in a different way so I think I've just always just not really ticked any boxes I'm just doing it slightly weirdly yeah but I quite like all that I think making plans it's it's great if that suits you but actually following your nose and going along with what works for you it certainly seems to serve you pretty well when's your book actually out then next month I think it's March it might be July but I don't want it to be July because I don't want it to be like a summer book because it's so depressing what's it called it's called sunset sunset oh lovely um so you've had Sunrise and Sunset.

Yeah. So it's, yeah, I tried so hard for it. That was the worst thing. The title was the worst thing. Everything I suggested, they were like, nope, nope, nope, nope. It's really hard. Yeah. Yeah.

Your mum writes books now. Yeah, she does. Yeah. So she got a publishing deal when she was 60, which I thought was so cool because she'd always been a prolific reader. And she's got an amazing way with words and she can write beautifully. But she started talking about writing a book, I think, when she was probably about 50. And I was always saying, yeah, I can really see this for you.

But then as soon as she sort of told lots of people, it kind of stopped. And I think she said she spent a long time trying to work out how you know she as an author sort of looked and what it should feel like and then I think as she she started doing a course with Curtis Brown and through that got an agent and she got a deal but she said after that she realized as well that she could be her own person and then write as well as live the life she'd always lived and do the things she liked it was so interesting hearing her in your podcast and thinking because she was when she said when she was first considered as a presenter it was kind of like but i'm i'm an actress like an actress and it's the same when when you're trying to put

yourself out there as a writer people like no but you're you're a presenter you're a presenter it's it people have such a small kind of capacity to see you in a different way they if they know you as a singer yeah i know you as a girl who was in harry potter that's what they're always going to treat you as yeah so i think that's been the main hurdle with writing this book and thinking okay do i agonize about this for five years and write the best novel i can possibly make agonize over every beginning of you know every word or do i do it to my best capability within the period of time that I've got before this baby's born so that I can actually enjoy this baby being born for a change because

every time so far I've been so stressed with work at the same time I really want to try and enjoy this birth and this period of time so I was like I'm gonna I'm gonna get it done because I'm always going to be considered as a chiclet writer of who Igalia was in Harry Potter who's written chiclet that's what I'm always going to be considered as even though the book isn't that it might be okay I don't I don't I'm always going to be judged in a particular way so it's been quite liberating to to accept my label and know that I'm not that label but for now that's I I'm you know I'm not going to agonize about it yeah I think also sometimes that's down to more more you and how you feel about yourself because actually I think people are quite open about you know reading a great book

but I think maybe for you that making that distinction is probably what makes it so you can actually finish it and get it done because otherwise if you you've always got that voice in your head haven't you like picking things apart but actually the the big thing is actually getting getting it done because so many people have ideas to do things but then don't finish it because they just agonize over each individual I've got friends I've had projects they've been like secret projects been doing for like a decade and it never really gets out there being able to sign things off and send it on its way is actually a really big deal yeah I'm quite good at that because I'm not a perfectionist and I don't mind criticism when it's other people not when it's my sister uh so specific people are allowed to go yeah there's very specific people not arm's length is fine um so I I'm not and that's that's the sense that's when I started doing YouTube videos

and looking back they're so embarrassing and like bad but I just put them out there and I so I'm not really that um fussy about that kind of thing I'm not saying that I've written a bad book and I'm putting out there hopefully no I know that I did but that I didn't mean to infer that but um like hopefully I've like I've done my best so that's all I can do really did you always think you'd finish it uh I I just again like you were saying with pregnancy and stuff I didn't think about the fact that I'd be handing in a book in October when I was due I just thought thought, I don't know, I just thought it would happen. I didn't think about nine months' time, even though I had this deadline always in place.

So it's slightly stupid, but... No, it's not stupid. Look, it all worked out. Do you think you could have done that with your first baby or second baby? Do you think it gets easier with time, with your ability to think, no, I can keep that thing going and keep that thing going? Oh, definitely. The kind of spinning plates like my mum said you just get better at handling more stuff um but I'm also getting better at remembering that they're only this age for a certain period of time so I Margot started school this you know like last week and that was such a big deal for her and she's she's only a baby she's July so

she feels so young to be going um whereas I had that extra time with Donny because he's October so I I was really ready for Donny to go to school but I wasn't quite ready for Margot to go but I also knew I had this deadline it was she wasn't she because of the pandemic she didn't start until mid-September and then she only went for like the hour and then the two hours and the three hours and so it was a bit annoying actually um but so I was like okay because I wanted to do the whole thing of you know taking photos of her on her first day and then and making sure that I was really supportive and I was on hand all times to you know coming back from school picking her up from school but then as the deadline approached, I got so much more stressed. And then I had all of these pregnancy hiccups with having to go into hospital.

You forget how physically demanding being pregnant is. So I just had to then succumb to thinking, okay, I've taken one nice photo of her on her first day, but that's all I can do. I can't pick her up and take her every day because I have to do this and I also walking to school I can physically I'm not as capable so I've just had to just accept that I can't do it all and but enjoy it when I can so I've got now a couple of weeks before the baby's born hopefully I can be present for them when I haven't I have not been present for them for a couple of weeks I've been completely

independent for the first time in a long time I haven't been that like brutal about I can't see them for a couple of days like I have to do this whereas usually I'm much more okay well they can come they can just come with me they can sit in the room I can I can right they're in the room but this is the only time where I've ever been like, I actually cannot have them in the same room. Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's quite hard.

I get a bit like that as well with the kids. And I'll be like, it's fine. It's fine. And then I'm like, what am I doing? I'm being rubbish to them and, like, snappy. And I'm actually not being able to get my work done either. Yeah. I think this year, working at home stuff,

I mean, I know it's supposed to be, like, if you're writing, presumably you'd be doing that anyway. but it is pretty intense with young kids I think yeah and especially when they're a baby or a toddler they're just they need you so much yeah um also they remember time differently so if you did take the next couple of weeks and rather than saying okay now I can be present for Margot and Donny but instead you're like I'm actually going to have a bit of time when I'm just not on a deadline I'm about to have a baby and I'm just going to take them up they won't they won't remember the time in the same way that you might yes so if you did have like that extra night your mum gave you last night they're not going to be like hey I thought you

said yeah it's going to be a week and it was a week and a night you know they just yeah hopefully they're a bit more clueless yeah they definitely are that time is different when you're small they're not they're not thinking of it in the same way yeah I my mum's really good at reminding me that too like they they don't they don't care as much as you do which is quite horrible sometimes but it's actually true you know they're they're fine without me right now they're being looked after when you did have that time when it was just the three of you which presumably that two years was pretty intense in terms of your relationship with them does it feel like you've had to sort of deal with any sort of shift into becoming a family where there's you're all together on the same roof

kind of I think with so we've just moved into this house but before that we've always been in basically one one and a half bedroom flats really small flats so we've always been on top of each other and I sleep with both of them which is at first was a bit mind-snoring. Well, they've never known anything different. When they're older, they're going to need to have some noisy thing in the corner of the room. Yeah, we have a fan on as well,

so hopefully the fan drowns me out, but we have as much noise on as possible. So we've always co-slept us three so it feels quite um so alfie's always been like in the house or near but like never like in the same room in the same bed as you like all the time well they have two little toddler beds next to my bed but they obviously get in with me but i that's that's one thing i do need to sort out before this baby comes because i don't know how i'm gonna have them all in a double bed with me um which isn't safe so that's one thing i do need to sort out but that's also just been necessity because we didn't have space before to really have separate bedrooms but now that we do have a separate bedroom we're still

in the same bed um we probably should sort that out but um they haven't really had to adjust that because we've always been quite um separate in lots of ways um that yeah i'm i really like the fact that alfie's kind of he's not like um he's not like a hands-on dad he's really he loves it and he is so good with them but he's not like right let's go to the park, guys. Let's go do this, guys. He's not like that. So it's always been, it's not really changed that much. He's just here more, which is lovely. And now that we have more space, it's actually brilliant because I don't feel like I'm watching over him. He's not watching over me.

It's been great. Yeah. Well, I have to say, even though you haven't been here very long and you've been writing a book, I think your house is filled with so much love. Well, usually I keep drawings everywhere all this stuff on the wall it's annoying because everywhere I go

and I thought you know with your artistic leaning I was like surely this house is going to be quite you know piles of stuff and it's actually really tidy

and I just I'm still the messiest house of anyone I've spoken to oh no whenever I see your house on Instagram I'm always like oh it's so colourful

this is definitely colourful so nice no the this is the thing we have to move all of our stuff in that's i think i'm i'm trying to get better at getting rid of things that's hard toys they don't they have not looked in the toy box once throughout lockdown no and also you've done the thing that's made it hard for me to move on with toys is that you keep having a new small person yes so I have other toys that haven't been played with and I think

but what if what if that's like something Mickey gets really into in a year's time and then I've just got rid of all of it oh no that's fine yeah that's fine

but there's like you know the pointless stuff that you get for them you just realise they don't need it like Lego's been the best development because it's just contained

yeah yeah no Lego's I love Lego it needs to persuade me of Lego and puzzles as well are good they like lego has been the best development because it's just contained yeah yeah no lego is what i mean i love lego yeah it's persuade me with lego and um puzzles as well are good i love puzzles but uh we've we've it's gonna be hard to do that when you've got a new baby they'll have to say not not when they're teeny tiny but when they get to that stage where they want to just pull things off i know and lego as well oh yeah that's choking yeah and also they just like mickey just destroyed this little lego city thing that jesse and i were working on the day just found it on the table just grabbed it and pulled

it on the floor so you said do you have to worry about choking does he yeah i mean i wouldn't let him be on with it on his own but we'd we'd put it in another room but then he managed to what he can open the baby gate now which is fun so he's worked out how to open the lock and then he went for a little wonder yeah that's what i'm worried about i've kind of forgotten all of that stuff all right i've also just forgotten what it's like to have a shower. Like, as I was having a shower yesterday, I was thinking, oh my gosh,

this is one of the last showers I'm going to have in a while without, like, being on a timer. Yeah. Do you remember when they... I used to have him... I used to have them in a baby bouncer

in the shower screaming while I was in the shower for as quick as possible. Exactly. So that's going to happen again. Yeah. Yeah. So where's the baby...

The baby's now fine and you're leaving for a bit. Yes yeah yeah so where's the baby the baby's now fine at least you're leaving for a bit yes yeah yeah mickey's actually on swimming today so he's yeah he said bye and he wandered off um and uh he's gone out with abris we've got a nanny who comes in between 8 30 and 4 30 monday to friday which is amazing which has been since obviously since they've all gone back to school. Yeah. But the day goes like that and I find it quite hard to get things done but it's alright it's been okay. How long have you had a nanny?

We had our first nanny, Nanny Claire who's now become like family. She was with us for 11 years. So from when Sonny was 4 months old And Sonny's your second? No he's my first sorry. So she was with us for 11 years. Then we had a nanny calledemma for a couple of years and then abra has been with us for two years but they all feel like i keep in touch with jemma and yeah nanny claire's like she's literally

like a you know extended aunt or something she like we just they ever lived with you or was it no they didn't actually no and i i've always quite liked that because i feel like it's a lot to take on particularly now we've got five kids it's a you know it's a busy house there's always something to do in the house so I quite like the fact that Abra has her own time and she doesn't do babysitting that kind of thing either because I feel like go and have your life like you need to it's my my choice was taking on all the responsibility the small people and you know young hearts run free so i just go into your thing um so they don't need like so you know that you've got that time of the day and then you're like you just mum in the evening yes unless i've got work so our setup is a little bit kooky because

basically nanny claire she used to do all the daytime stuff and the babysitting and i felt like it was too much for one person if i'm honest. Especially because I was away for gigs a lot that time. And Richard was on tour a lot. And so now we have our au pair who works for another family during the week. But if I've got work in the evenings or the weekends, she does that. So at the moment, there's not really a lot going on.

So she's just at home. And I guess Sonny can look after, like, does he ever babysit? He hasn't babysat yet but he's definitely very capable and I can definitely do things like like even when Mickey was born so Sonny was 14 then and I could put Mickey in the bath with Sonny and he'd hold him and wash him and have a bath and then I could come in after like 10-15 minutes and take Mickey and in that time I could have you know got pajamas on one of the other ones yeah so that's been really handy I

think Sonny's actually been probably my secret weapon really for getting extra pair of hands when the other ones are little yeah definitely because he's that bit older as well so he was at 11 when I had my fourth and that was really helpful yeah because he's yeah he's very capable he could pick up any tiny baby yeah I remember my mum being telling me like how great it was when we were growing up because Robbie and me and Ben could look after BB and Jamie and it was like it's I've just always grown up either holding a baby or looking after a toddler or yeah taking one home from school it was like such a nice part of the age gap thing yeah yeah that's the same in my family too there's never been longer than I

think the longest gap I've had with no baby in in my life was when I was naught to eight because it was just me and then my brother was born when I was eight and then since then even including my own kids there's never been longer than I think like six years my youngest brother and sister were six when I had Sonny because my dad's got my twin brother and sister who are only 22 now yeah so there's always yeah always been someone little around so I've had like a baby on the hip but most of my I think that's really probably why you're good at doing work and having so many kids because you've just always I think that's what I want to try and do too it's just I think some people really get so worried that a baby changes everything well and they kind

of do they do change everything, but it puts them off having multiple children. But I think when you've grown up in a house with multiple children, you're much more like, okay, you can do... It's a familiar kind of chaos, definitely. But I'm impressed with... Your mum's obviously been such a big role model for you

and still someone that's so integral to how you live your life and raise the kids. But the fact you've been able to do your own thing I think she must feel very proud of you for that actually yeah and I think she's like she's I think she's constantly surprised by the things we're doing like when I was talking to you earlier about twitch and and then with my doodle shop which so I used to just do doodles online and then I started selling them and it's become my main livelihood weirdly and we package them all up and she does beautiful like stickers on them and also it's your mom that did the stickers on them yeah

my mom does everything yeah I was like well I'm sending one to Sophia Lysbeth so she yeah she's like constantly baffled by the things I get her to do, but because it's just weird, all of the stuff. So she's, I think it's been really nice to have her like realizing that there's just a different, because, because back then she was, she didn't want to be a doctor, but she was, that was, you had a very few options as a young woman back then. You went to university and you became, you know, a doctor or a lawyer or a nurse or, you know, there was, it was so much more, I don't know there's a few options she would have been I think if she lived now she would have probably done an art foundation and been a seamstress and worked as a costume designer or

done something really creative and weird but she didn't have those options so the fact that I'm doing the things that she probably would have loved to do too, has been, I'm doing them kind of for both of us and she's able to be there with me. So every time I do something where I'm like, that is amazing, I've made my rent this month through an online shop. Like that's incredible that I'm able to survive and provide for a family by doing something

that's not a normal job at all. It's incredibly weird. I think it just reminds me how lucky I am to be able to do that yeah when you say creative and weird this involved your mum making a cushion of alfie is that right so you stop like that yeah that's brilliant I know and she didn't think it was weird at all she was just like okay right yeah that's the next thing makes sense yeah and even with even with um some of the content and the things I do she's at first oh my god I'm gonna be talking about a blowjob in front of my mom or like I'm gonna talk about you know an STD in front of my mom but she she kind of reacts at first

and she's like okay and she's like no that is quite funny actually that is quite funny and she's fine she's like so I'm really worried about her reading the book but I know she'll respond and she'll be like okay okay, I can see why. Yes, I can. Yes, I can see that. That's okay. But it's been great. Aw.

But she would have definitely done something weird. Well, she is doing it. She's doing it now. Yeah, it's happening to her now. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We're very lucky.

We brought it. Yeah. Well, I'll let you go in a minute because I know you said you didn't sleep last night. So I'm hoping you've got a restful bit of time this afternoon hopefully I just it's so nice having time away from them because it makes you like I'm just so excited to see them oh yeah that's sweet I know it is really sweet I mean obviously by the time it gets to seven o'clock and they're being nightmares I mean I do find like the the development that suddenly happened with their sleep and lack of wanting a bedtime just sudden, very sudden.

And they come up with like anything to persuade you to stop the bedtime. Like it's just another book, another book. Yeah, I'm hungry, my tummy hurts. I'm thirsty. Yeah, all that stuff, yeah. I heard that you have to do like three different bedtimes. Well, yeah, three main ones and then fourth is just knocking on Sunny's door saying it's bedtime. that you have to do like three different bed you have three different bedtimes um well yeah three main ones and then fourth is just knocking on sunny's door saying it's bedtime but um yeah i

put mickey to bed he goes to bed about half seven and then after that it's like i normally try and do jesse and ray together because that makes life a lot easier and then kit's around nine but he normally tries to make it 9 30 and so jesse 10. So Jessie and, so Jessie and Ray are, how old are they? Four and? Four and eight. Okay, cool.

And they share a room with Kit who's 11 so there's three of them in one room but I don't know how long I can really sustain that because Kit,

he's going to be soon wanting his own space isn't he? Yeah. Yeah, he's in the top bunk raised below. So he's just started secondary school?

Yeah. Has that been like a big thing, a change in the house or is it the same one as Sunny? Yeah, so he's just started secondary and Jessie's just started secondary school. Yeah. Has that been like a big thing, a change in the house? Or is it the same one as Sunny? Yeah, so he's just started secondary and Jesse's just started reception. So that's like the big shift we've had for both of them. Jesse's loving school.

In fact, he finished his first week and was annoyed he couldn't go on the Saturday. Aww. Like, wow, well done school. When's his birthday? He's November. So he's like done. Oh, so he's older. Oh, good.

Which I think helps him a lot, actually. So much. The first time I've had a baby, a little one, going in that side of things rather than the spring baby. he's November so he's like oh so he's older which I think helps him a lot actually so much the first time I've had a baby a little one going being in that side of things rather than the spring baby it's a lot easier isn't it

so much easier and you get more time with them as well before they go yeah so even though he went to nursery I just still feel like I got a lot more

time whereas Margot just feels but Margot because of Donny is more mature yeah she's yeah it definitely pulls them up a little bit yeah bigger one seeing what they do and how they act so she's um but it's so funny how these tiny little changes unsettle the routine so much like because i've been so

much busier lately and not been as around they've like it's been so much harder when when i tried to put them to bed and it usually would have been seamless but now it's like and Margot's become this diva in this we had this party on Saturday for Donny's sixth birthday and um it was like a teenage she was like a teenager she was asking me to put black eyeliner on her wow and when I didn't she went crazy um shut herself off like I've never seen anything like this but I'm like you're you just turned four and you're you're ruling us and it's because I've just not been you know I've not been there to kind of keep her in check really my mum's very strict with her but so when she's with me then she kind of rebels um so it's just I find that really funny so I need to try and get a

semblance of a routine before this baby comes but then I also have too much pressure because it'll all take its own shape when you have the new one anyway yes and also you don't know what will happen and but I also I think with Margot I went into this frenzy before I gave birth thinking okay I've got to clean everything I've got to make sure I've got everything I've got to get a dentist appointment before the baby comes because I won't be able to a dentist appointment before and I've got to have a haircut and I've got to get a dentist appointment before the baby comes because I won't be able to have a dentist appointment before and I've got to have a haircut and I've got to do this and now I'm just like actually you can't it doesn't matter you can do stuff with it hopefully I can have a dentist appointment with a newborn baby

it's fine I went to the dentist with a new baby it's fine you can literally breastfeed while they're doing a filling if you need to really? yeah totally you're lying down it's easy you have

to be quite chilled with yourself i guess and maybe you just get on well really well with your dentist but yeah but no i mean but it's silly that you think about these things and you think you fixate on them thinking i need to get everything sorted oh definitely well it's your brain's way of trying to prepare for something but really there's a lot of unknowns in there because you don't you know roughly what you're in for but then that person arrives and you know they're their own they set the tone a little bit don't they it's so funny because next door has a newborn like born two weeks ago and the scream is oh my god i've never heard a baby scream so much and i was lying in bed listening and i was like i they didn't scream mine didn't

scream like that and i said that to alfie and he's like yes they did and i was like they didn't scream mine didn't scream like that and i said that to alfie and he's like yes they did and i was like they didn't like they didn't scream like that but i've just completely wiped that from my memory there's a survival thing maybe yeah i think that first bit is a bit of a blur but actually i don't remember mine being that scream so i don't know now i'm like did they that's obviously why you've had five because you've locked it out to be honest the bit of um this year like the pandemic thing and being in lockdown with all five I did think like I think I've had too many children I did feel like whoa that's that's a big um yeah it just it was just almost too much for me really at the beginning I just I don't I actually don't know how to do this they're just all the different ages and all the anxiety and school stuff and everything.

I was like, this is, this is ludicrous. Yeah. I don't really know. Cause also when Mickey, when it started, Mickey was 14 months at the stage where he's crawling. So it wasn't like a little person where you sit them down and they don't move or, you know, they're lying on their back on a rug for a bit with some toys. Like no, he was, you know, everywhere into cupboards, pulling things open, trying to do this.

And I just thought, I don't, I don't know how I'm going I'm gonna be productive like we're just gonna have to sort of survive each day yeah well that's what that's I think that was quite sobering for everybody because even with like my work and stuff I just had to be like I can't do anything right now there is nothing I can do no I felt completely paralyzed with with work stuff I thought I thought I should be doing something I should be getting something out there and I'm like there's nothing I can't I don't I lacked a lot of skills as well but you did with your discos they were great turned into something but genuinely that wasn't that felt more like what our family does to kind of cheer ourselves up rather than like actually something oh this is what I wanted to ask you. Because I read somewhere, I don't know where,

but because you've always been like a role model for me with not showing their faces on Instagram. Not a role, you know what I mean? Like you've always been quite classy. No, no. I'm like, here's my kitchen. No, no. What do you think about my kettle?

No. No, yeah, you really did lately no but i just wanted to know your opinion about it because it terrifies me and when i see people broadcasting their kids faces on instagram beautiful pictures i'm not like i'm not like dissing their kids no no well i think it's each their own weird like i just want to know because i want to do that part of me wants to exploit my children I really love your brothers and you want to show what they're off yeah but like what do you how what do you think you're going to do in the future well I've kept I've actually kept the same one in terms of I don't put them in pictures on Instagram I just for me with the gigs first of all gigs god that's such an elaborate way of

terming it it really wasn't a gig me singing singing in the kitchen. That was a gig in lockdown. It was. That's a real delusional moment. Yeah, when I was in front of the crowds. No, I'm basically with our discos. I felt like when we got put into lockdown, I felt like I wasn't doing it. I wasn't doing the discos as a kind of,

I'm going to, you know, I sing to perform to you. I felt like it was like, I'm a mum. I'm with all my children. I'm going to you know I sing to perform to you I felt like it was like I'm a mum I'm with all my children I'm a husband everything's crazy and this is what we do to make ourselves feel happy so I felt like I was just doing singing because that's something I know how to do but actually I was really doing it more as me it was just totally me and my way of coping and like suddenly my eldest said to me after one of them he said you know you use the discos really to sort of have a little bit of a rant and I was like it's true I would be singing and in between singing be like they all need haircuts and my iPad got broken today and um you know we can't home school and I can't see any of my friends and you know it's like I just

saw like a catharsis really so I felt like I feel like with social media in fact with anything really context is so much part of the decisions you make anyway so I still don't put their faces on pictures because I feel like I still little my my 11 year old's very interested he loves social media stuff and he's always tick tocking all this stuff so I've done him a little bit because he's 11 and I feel like I can ask him and Sonny was 12 when I first put his picture up and I asked him I feel like he's old enough to decide. But, you know, time might tell. I might be totally wrong about that.

He might turn around when he's older and be like, why did you do that? But the little ones, I just feel like they're too little to know. Yeah, it's weird. It really worries me because whenever I have shown their faces, I always feel kind of weird after. Yeah, me too. I think I feel weird when when people like oh my god Donnie's so cute and I'm like but you don't know him yeah well I think trust your instinct with it and my whole thing with what I post is really if I've got something in me saying

I'm not sure don't do it exactly it's not worth it yeah I I really appreciate hearing other people say that because I think it is bizarre to not have a sense of um even though I don't want to be judgmental and stuff I think it is crazy in this period of time to not have a sense of, even though I don't want to be judgmental and stuff, I think it is crazy in this period of time to not think about the consequences, the long-term. We don't know, like we don't know with the virus, we don't know what this is going to be for the future. We don't know what social media is going to be for the future for the kids either. It's very true. And also I think you're so right there about the discos were a completely different thing to you as a,

write there about the discos were a completely different thing to you as a with who you are and what you're trying to do in your public persona as a working woman and so whenever I now post things I'm like who am I posting this for my person is from so that it's it's about my job and my career or my person is because I want to be seen as a mother like and in which case do I really need to show that off? I'd much prefer to broadcast something which is like, show me as a mother who's working because this is what my Instagram is. It's like, this is my job. It's now literally my livelihood, basically.

But when it's like a photo of Donnie being cute, is that doing anything for my, what is that for? Who is that for? So it's kind of, yeah I it makes me feel a lot better when I see people who are doing it making that line quite clear well I think as well it's so personal that some people that would think what I've done already is way too much and way too personal I think I think you just gotta go with your own your own feeling about it really and yeah with the little ones I just feel I just I don't really want them to suddenly be like oh that was actually quite for them like if they get dressed up into something

like I think it's adorable and like or funny but I think ah if I show their face and then when they're older they're gonna be like I didn't know you were gonna show like thousands of people I thought you were just showing grandma or whatever so yeah I don't know I feel a bit uncomfortable but it's not like you don't have those pictures no and also I genuinely don't judge other people I happily look at lovely family pictures that are posted from other people and I don't think why are you doing that so you don't get jealous because I get really jealous I sometimes think oh I've got things I could show a bit like that or oh they did something really funny and I'd like to share it but I guess it's like that thing isn't it just something at the last minute just stops me from thinking that's what I want to do.

But then, as I say, some people would think things have already. I know there was one thing I did post and Richard was like, I'm not sure you should have posted that. I thought it was really funny. But during lockdown, we had this doodle book and the kids were using it. It seemed to put like a lot of their stresses and I let them do literally anything they could swear or whatever. So like Ray had done this um there was a picture that was um to color in of the sound of music had Maria running over the field over the hill with the children the von Trapp children background and Captain von Trapp standing to the side and Ray had drawn a speech bubble oh that's right a

speech bubble out of Maria saying tra la la and a speech bubble of Captain von Trapp saying F you and I just thought it was really funny like especially when I kept singing Julie Andrews during the lockdown I was like well he's really what's what's he trying to tell me so I posted it and afterwards Richard was like oh I don't know you know what if people think that that's his actual trauma and you're just kind of saying it's funny oh no I don't know I think it's mainly fun yes I would have I think I would have gone full into Instagramming them fully if not for Alfie it's it's been the only thing we've had proper ethical like yeah parenting fights about the thing is you're both kind of right in a way I think actually

I think you could probably put loads of stuff up and it's nothing I mean there's so much out there it's like wallpaper you know it's like if you look through like um kit used to do a lot of he does a lot of youtube videos and at first i was like oh should we be doing i'm like if you look there's like swathes and swathes of kids narrating themselves playing minecraft you know it's it's largely pretty boring it's not really you know it's sort of something and nothing yeah you've got to make these decisions as a family it's it really tough. It's a very new thing to navigate. Yeah. But if you put it up, I think it's fine.

And if you don't put it up, I think it's fine. Yeah. I know that's not very helpful. But yeah, you do what works for you. And I, personally, for me, there's always just something at the last minute that would just make me think, ah. Yeah. It's like if I do a job and they say, oh, we'd like the kids involved.

I'm always like, definitely no faces. But then I spoke to Candice Brathwaite who's done lots of stuff with her family and she's like very unapologetic about like this is work and I tell them it's work and then I show them that they've earned some money from the job we've done the ad and they've put it in an account and they can see what they're doing and I was like that's pretty cool as well like if it works for your family like these little things they're so they're so specific to your own dynamic aren't they yeah and they filter through every all the decisions you make it won't be just literally how you feel

about social media but it affects how you i don't know how engaged you are in the school or what you know there's lots of ways that our feelings come out in all different directions definitely it's yeah i'm just completely aware now that there's always another thing that i can worry about but actually it's sometimes nice just to be like it's just forget about it for a second it doesn't matter yeah but it's all it won't really go away as well we are learning about it and you know there are really scary statistics about depression and young people and all this stuff so it's definitely I do think it should be something that's spoken about more and investigated more just to make sure that kids are being protected.

I hate the fact that places like Twitter and TikTok and stuff have literally no moral core at all. Like recently there was a thing on TikTok where there was a suicide video going around and it had been embedded into loads of other videos. So it would start off seemingly innocent and then it would switch to this suicide. And I'm like, if that was a thing I'd set up, if I'd set up TikTok, I'd be like, we're shutting this down and work and taking it would switch to this suicide and I'm like if that was a thing I'd set up if I'd set up TikTok I'd be like we're shutting this down and work and taking it away yeah but they were just like oh we can't do anything yeah I just think that's really irresponsible really I hate that yeah I mean how are we supposed to help kids I mean most of it's just kids dancing along to yeah I don't mind it when it's like I think they know they definitely know the word Instagram which is terrifying but um I think it's more because I've you know occasionally done like

a puppy dog filter on something yeah with them and they enjoy it and I don't ever post them but they they know it's there so they always ask for the puppy dog no I mean I've done that it's fine Mickey and I were broccoli the other day it's like I think it's fine no it's like he's gonna look back at that and be like I wish you hadn't put me as broccoli on your instagram maybe he will yeah but also it's funny when you put on something other than cbb's and you see the amount of adverts directed at kids like and then the day you know the second that they watch these adverts they want this stuff yeah their brains are so susceptible they are yeah it's very easy to breed a tiny consumer i definitely have that with my four-year-old he's got a very very long amazon wish list at the moment

yeah gearing up for number five youtube kids oh yeah but then they do pick and choose like ray's had exactly the same things he's supposed to he's eight and he reads he just will always pick up a book and i'm like well there you go that's his thing his thing. He's chosen his. They kind of all have the same options, but then end up doing their own thing. Oh, it's amazing, five kids, to see the difference in personalities. Like all of us five were and are completely different. Yeah, isn't that crazy?

Yeah, it's amazing. And is everybody really excited about the new baby? I think that they're just surprised by my whole journey. Like, I think because, yeah, it's just so, you know, I think the fact that me and Alfie are together and that all happened, it's just been like another thing that I'm doing that's slightly... Are they used to you being, do they think you're quite dramatic then with the sort of different things that happen yeah I think my older brother is always quite surprised by I think he just always thought I wasn't very weird so I think

he's quite comforted now that I've managed to find a career out being weird and I think he's uh yeah he's he's got on board with. And I think when he has a baby, it'll be such a nice bonding experience. Have you got siblings who've got kids? No. Oh, but I guess they're younger. Yeah, I really want them to get started. I can't wait to be an auntie.

Is your closest sibling a boy? Yeah, so my brother, he's 32. And then, actually, he's 33 now. He just turned 33 back in August. I'm so mishsome. Yeah, and then Martha is, she now he just turned 33 like August I'm so mishsome yeah and then Martha is

she's going to be 30 in December but boys have babies later yeah so maybe Martha will have the first one no I just want to I mean Richard is desperate

he's like can someone else please take over does he not have does he have any siblings he's got one brother who's not got any children and won't have any children

that's so weird isn't it yeah this is amazing yeah where some people can have one kid but they have brothers and sisters't have any children. That's so weird, isn't it? Yeah. This is amazing. Yeah. Where some people can have one kid, but they have brothers and sisters who have so many that it's kind of, it becomes a thing. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to finding people having kids

that they can play with. I've had, it's so sad, the birthday party on Saturday. It was just all of like, just adults and Donnie. And I was like, I promise I'll give you a birthday party soon. I promise. Oh, he's fine we had the saddest lockdown birthday for Ray when he turned eight in April because he had a birthday party with all his teddy bears and he sat outside in the garden with all these stuffed toys

around him and like did plates and stuff and I was taking pictures he wanted me to take pictures of this little Polaroid somewhere on a shelf or something it just is the most tragic looking little it's like the saddest picture you've ever seen. And I decided to do a pass the parcel. And the second thing in from the top was a metal pencil case, which by accident, we've got one of these weird induction hobs, you know those things? So by accident, I started cooking the pencil case and it burnt through. So when someone won it and then they wrapped it,

all the stuff inside was melted oh yeah that's actually quite funny but yeah so it wasn't the best don't worry no birthday can be um sadder than the but i thought that it'd be over by october you know like i genuinely thought oh he'll i'll be able to have one finally yeah um but they don't mind as long as they get presents yeah and it's happening to everybody. It's not just him. Yeah. Yeah, it's happening to everybody. The WhatsApp for his year at school,

they sent birthday messages to him. And it was all coming to me, obviously, on WhatsApp. So I was like, do I tell him that he's got 27 messages? So I went and I sat down, opened WhatsApp, and I showed him the 27 messages with emoticons, all from the mums. Yeah, exactly. That's it. And he was so touched.

And I was like, that's so tragic. It's a WhatsApp. You're so looking at my WhatsApp. No, but they know it's communication. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Well, I think your mum must be very excited about your baby yeah I think it

will be brilliant for us and then it will be a boy so that'll be quite like symbolic um I really didn't want it to be a boy because I was like if it's a boy I'm just gonna think of Ben but I'm embracing that and you know it's it that's a really weird thing to say but I did that's what I thought I just was kind of scared about kind of the connotations of having a baby boy after Ben but I don't think that's I don't think that's weird I think that's probably really normal yeah it was so funny because you because you're not allowed anyone in for the scans and stuff so when I had the scan to find out if it was a boy or a girl um and she said, oh, it's definitely a boy. I started crying, but she didn't know.

She thought I was crying because I didn't want a boy. But I was crying because of Ben. But I couldn't then be like, I'm crying because my brother died. And, you know, I was scared about having a boy because I couldn't say any of this because the second you act like you're mentally unstable in a hospital, they're going to, you know, say you need counseling and all this stuff. and I've had to be so careful at all of my appointments to be like when they ask you how are you and you know how's it going I've had to be like I'm I've I've had to make a clear decision to to lie and to be like I'm fine you know I don't say like I'm writing a book I've

got two kids I'm really stressed I'm grieving quite heavily because I'm like so many red flags just so many red flags and I know I'm okay I know I'm coping but by the way I look and the way I sound and the context of everything I know that I'm going to be put into a category that I wouldn't be right for

Do you think they would think that's a red flag? I mean I think I think being sad when there's a red flag i mean i think um i think uh being sad when there's a reason is is really normal i know but i think that they they when i did say to one midwife all of this stuff and she was like right have you thought about headspace the app i was like that app is gonna do nothing for me you think that app is gonna do anything and she was like okay have you thought about counseling i was like yeah well how am I gonna find a counselor right now and how am I gonna

find a therapist right I don't have time to like cook dinner how am I gonna find a therapist I think that people you know it's it's quite old-fashioned in a lot of ways it's not very so yeah that might also say a lot about how we deal with you know grief and things like that anyway exactly like I don't need a counselor or therapist right now I'm going through something that is bigger than that and yes in five years time or two years time might be up for having some therapy for it but it's way too soon it's like you might not need if you you know there's lots of ways to find the help you need exactly and I found the death books have been really good for that so that's fine I've taught myself quite a lot um and also I'm not like a big therapy fan um partly because I don't like

looking back really I like thinking about you know sorry that's my stomach rumbling so mine's been doing that um yeah I'm not anti-therapy but I definitely don't think I'm a good candidate for it I think I'm quite like stubborn and I also I can't get over the fact that I'm talking to a stranger yeah I can talk to my mom or my sister oh yeah that weird I think if you know the people that help you then it's fine and um I think from everything I've heard about sometimes you'll talk about something and you'll say, is that weird?

But I think you've shown so many good examples of when weird is really brilliant. Like, I think weird is so underrated. I'm always telling my kids weird is, there's someone that, oh, they call me weird. I'm like, that's great. Weird is really good. I think weird should be more celebrated.

I think now that's going to happen more and more. But I think growing up in that period of time being a teenager when i was weird it wasn't cool now it's kind of the geeky programs are cool and the you know it's cool to be a geek and um but it really wasn't back then it was kind of much more really would not want wish anyone to be a teenager in that period of time or a pop star but I think being a teenager is just you're desperate to iron out anything about you that stands you out or yeah marks who's different well yeah I just kind of kept away from the I just I'd kept myself away which I think was

quite helpful in a way but yeah it would be really interesting to see if Donny and Margot are weird here's hoping. I've got my fingers crossed. Yeah, I think there's very little doubt they will be slightly weird with the upbringing so far. Yeah, they can do it with my weird kids, it's all good. I love that we finish on a celebration of being weird. It's funny, my kids are often saying to me, so-and-so said I'm weird.

I say, well, great. That's a good thing, isn't it? All my favorite people are a little bit peculiar. You know, being typical is quite boring, really, isn't it? A life less ordinary and all that but yes it was lovely hanging out with jesse it's been lovely hanging out with you again next week have i got next week oh next week i've got holly tucker who set up not on the high street.com so we talk a lot about independent businesses we talk a lot about how to stay motivated and focused if you are running

your own business or thinking about it um it's very timely I wanted to put it out around now because of Christmas as well and I'm fully intending on doing as much as I can to shop small this Christmas I just think you know for every small business that you can support with a Christmas present or you know a purchase it means so much to those people and let's face it they've probably had a pretty scary year setting up a business on your own at any time is pretty daunting but getting through a It means so much to those people. And let's face it, they've probably had a pretty scary year. Setting up a business on your own at any time is pretty daunting. But getting through a year like this,

I actually think now's the time that those businesses can really come into their own in some ways because you are more intrigued in the stories behind it. We've all been united by something. And sometimes the big global companies are a bit faceless when it comes to a shared human experience like we've had this year so yes holly had lots of wisdom and thank you so much for listening to me and jesse i loved our chat i walked away feeling really inspired and happy and also just thought what a lovely girl and wishing her all the best and i'm so excited to see that abraham little bam

is here safe and sound because there's nothing more like a happy ending than a beautiful new baby. So thanks to you. I will see you soon. Lots and lots of love. Have a lovely week. And I'm going to go and take the kids out for a walk in that sunshine. Take care. Thank you. you