Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 161: Francesca Amber
Episode Date: September 15, 2025Francesca Amber is a successful entrepreneur, podcaster and author who turned her life around using manifesting after everything went wrong for her in 2020.She has 3 daughters. Her eldest is 8 year...s old, and she has 4 year old twins who are starting school this September. In lockdown she lost her beauty business and her income and then had her twins as a single mother. She says she had a savage 5 years. But now her new book 'Manifesting Like a Mother' is published the day her twins start school and we mulled over how the timing is on this is so dramatic. We discussed the terminology of 'manifesting' and how Francesca thought I might have manifested the success of Murder on the Dancefloor!We agreed being a martyr as a mum is not a good thing, and Francesca described how she likes to schedule in quality time for herself, and buy herself lovely presents for her birthday and Mother's Day - and I've decided she should definitely treat herself to one of the tassley outfits I wear on stage!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Hello, I'm Sophia Lusbexter and welcome to spinning plates, the podcast where I speak to
to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work.
I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons, age 16 months to 16 years,
so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing,
it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions.
I want to be a bit nosy and see how to be.
other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates. Hello, greetings from
Houston. I'm back here. I think this is my second or third time this week. I'm just trying to
thank because I'm in the middle of supporting, promoting, promoting the release of my eighth album,
hurry and a pop. And it's been a lovely week actually, super, super busy. I cannot believe,
It was just this time last week I was doing Radio 2 in the park in Chelmsford.
Since then, I feel like I have been all over.
Yes, today I'm going to Birmingham and Nantwich for a signing,
and tomorrow I've got BBC Breakfast and tomorrow night, Brighton,
and the beat goes on kind of to the end of the week.
So it's all good.
I said to everybody around me, you know, my management, my label,
I was like, look, make me busy.
It's a big deal.
I haven't released very much.
an album like this
for, well I haven't released an album
full stop for three years
so you know, it's always kind of a big deal
and it's nice to give yourself
over to it and also I've been meeting so many people
who's been adorable. Thanks to all
of you that came to Cocoa Monday
any of the signings I've been doing
to launch the album, any of the little gigs
I've been doing the record shops. It's been
so nice to see you all. It's been good for my soul.
Thank you.
And yes, if I sound a little tired
it's only because I've been working so hard
I'm finding really hard to switch off
just a bit pedal to the metal at the moment
I get a bit adrenalineized when I'm working like this
so I don't know how to switch off
so sleep, not much.
It's okay, it's okay.
And welcome back to the podcast.
So this is, I don't even know what series this is.
Is it series 16?
How great, how nice for me.
I have another round of amazing
people for you this series. I've recorded 90% of them, I believe. So, so good. I've been loving it.
We start with Francesca Amber. Now, Francesca, I started following her a while back. I was really
interested in her ethos. So I just walked into boots at the station. I need some more stick-on nails.
They keep popping off. So weird. They've got like, what's that? Nipple shields, but no false nails.
I mean, I'm not saying you don't need to shield your nipples, but I feel like.
like nails are a little bit more commonplace.
Sorry, as a non-sequitur.
Francesca is,
someone who just released a book called Manifest Like a Mother.
And I first came across it because I listened to her interview someone
for a podcast that she has,
and I liked her interview style and how she came across.
So I started following her,
and she immediately DM me and said,
oh, I didn't know you're a manifester.
And it really made me think.
I don't think I am.
But you'll hear, Francesca and had a good talk about the semantics of it.
And her story is remarkable.
She, so I'm looking at where my train is.
Oh, it's already boarding.
Excellent.
She had a really rough time of it, 2020.
Her business, her beauty business, really suffered in lockdown.
She has three daughters.
So they're now twin girls of four and one of eight.
But during lockdown, she's just said it was overwhelming.
And to be fair, I actually think there's probably a whole other conversation
that Francesca and I could have had about how dark she found those early mother of twin babies
on an older daughter days because I got the impression that was incredibly tough for her.
And so now she has really turned it around, but also she so owns the success and what she's built.
And she has done this through, now what she calls manifesting.
And the reason I say it slightly in parenthesis is because I think it's a lot of positive thought.
I think it's a lot of bringing good things your way.
But as you'll hear Francesca say, she believes there's also magic at play.
And I really respect that because, look, if, you know, if there's a proof in the pudding moment,
it is the success that she has and that she enjoys.
and also the positivity that she draws people towards her with.
I mean, it's an attractive trait, isn't it?
Hearing someone talk positively.
I'm believing that you do own a little bit of the life that you lead
and what could be possible for you.
So I am all for it.
I wish her all the best, and I'm so thrilled she came over to talk to me.
You'll hear proper force for good.
And I do, honestly, one thing we 100% agree on
is about embracing opportunities that come your way
and being open to things, being open to new, new adventures,
seizing the best from that,
and just kind of not really waiting around
the life to happen to you a bit really,
but just being open to, yeah, creating a new story for yourself.
So here's Francesca, thank you so much to her.
She's a wonderful woman.
You have wonderful ears.
Thank you for choosing to spend this time with me.
I'm going to go and get on my train now.
And, yeah, I'll speak to you the other side of the chat.
Let's love, feed some breath.
Well, thank you so much.
It's so nice of you to come and see me.
And thank you for the book.
And this is a good place to start.
What do I need to know, Francesca, about manifesting like a mother?
Are we recording?
We are.
Oh, okay.
Get stuck in.
So when I was thinking about podcasts that really resonated with this book,
I was like spinning plates.
That is literally exactly.
And sometimes I feel like when people talk about manifesting,
they talk about such like high plane, like huge concepts.
But actually when you're a mother, I've realized it's the real basic strategies.
Like if you are a mum that is very time poor, energy poor,
like I need to go back to literal basics.
And that's what this book is,
is just trying to make what I know works accessible for women like me.
Yeah, because I've heard you speak as well about through your book club,
about the books that you feel you've gleaned so much information
for like under tenor
and how generous it is of people
to put wisdom under pages
so that you can carry it round
you can absorb it in your
you know in whichever way suits you
and manifesting
I think I'd quite like to start actually as well
oh thank you you've inscribed it thank you
the mother of disco
well don't know that
Donna Simon might be a bit cross about that
maybe the
yeah maybe the granddaughter of disco
but I'm happy to be included
in the disco family no matter what
what what does manifesting
mean to you because I've realized through listening to a few conversations about it, reading up
about it, it has different connotations for people a little bit. So for me, I feel like manifesting
is like the perfect mixture between strategy and what we focus on will grow in our lives
and that very sort of neuroscience part of it that we can explain and we can, people like Einstein
are like, it's a fact. But also a little bit of magic when you manage to manifest things into
your life that you're like how did that happen like you can't explain how it happened there
is that little bit of magic so i always think it's a bit of a fine art between science and magic and
it's it's difficult like it's simple to do but it's actually quite hard to apply into your life
and to consistently do it and also to manifest things that you actually truly desire and not just
things that you think you should want you know i'm a single woman in my 40s society is trying
to tell me i have failed you know i'm a single mother
many different actually just two two different dads but I'm out here living my best life but
there's a lot of people trying to tell you like that's a failure you should want this you should
want this so yeah I think it's just a lifelong learning and ultimately just knowing that you
can create the life you desire because I don't know about when you're younger you don't even
realize that do you that you can well I didn't you could create your life yeah I mean there's a few
sort of strands there I mean firstly I would definitely sitting from where I'm viewing it
and never see being a single mother as any kind of failure.
In fact, I think to me that's like the ultimate.
Like sometimes I have that in my head.
I've got a girlfriend who's another single mother of three.
And I spend a lot of time thinking, oh my God, hats off to her.
I'm constantly, invisible hats, always off.
And so I think there's a phenomenal success in just holding it down, being consistent,
keeping their world, feeling safe, you know, keeping them encapsulated in childhood.
while there's growing up things happening in the periphery.
So I'm taking my hat off to you for that.
But secondly, I would imagine for a lot of people,
the most significant hurdle when it comes to sort of harnessing this power,
this manifesting and make it part of your world,
is about giving yourself permission to see what you can hope to expect in your life
and what you want to encourage.
Because I suppose it's a little bit like that old adage about
but you can't love someone until you've learned how to love yourself.
It's that similar thing of you can't start to unlock it all
until you can imagine yourself living that life
and feel like it's okay.
You know, you're allowed to get those things for yourself.
Because also, often in pursuing your own goals and dreams,
you are taking yourself away from that traditional role
of being a mother there 24-7.
And there are definitely people.
I had a woman on my Instagram, actually.
I talked about how I just went into London for five days.
I had to record my audio book.
And someone messaged me saying,
how do you think that's going to affect your children?
What?
Yeah.
Oh, man.
Block.
Block, Christina.
Sorry.
But also, that's exactly the kind of thing my own mother would say as well.
Didn't you just want to write back,
how does it affect your children
that you put this negativity out into the world on a daily basis?
Yeah.
But there are a lot of people that think like that.
And I think there are a lot of women
that as soon as they start to think, actually, I want something for me,
I want to create something that I'm passionate about, that I want to do.
They will ultimately meet resistance from their partner, from their own parents,
from their children, definitely.
My children guilt trip me every time I leave the house.
They will meet resistance.
But something I've learned over this whole path is that the best gift you can give your children
and to your family, I think, is the most healed version of you,
the most healed, happy version of you.
Did you hear that thing on Instagram that was like,
the number one indicator for a child's happiness is the quality of their own mother's happiness.
And I think, well, that makes sense, doesn't it?
Yeah.
If a mother is depressed, if she's, you know, really finding life tough, she's not going to be the most nurturing.
And I know that women in incredibly difficult situations do show up every day for their children.
We all do.
But if you can create a life that you love and you can feel happy and fulfilled and even things as well,
like I talk about in the book, like being rich, do you know what I mean?
that being wealthy having your own money that's incredible it gives you freedom all this stuff
i think that's the best gift we can give our children you know show them how to live not just be a
you know it's a woman called tamu thomas i love her and she said your children don't need a martyr
they need a role model and i'm like yes yeah every time i think of that i'm like yes they need a
role model yeah and i think we are hopefully through you know all piling in with the wisdom
and we are kind of starting to banish that sort of martyr version of motherhood a bit
because there might be a time when kids are little
and they just think, oh, you know, my mom's on top, this is wonderful.
But then there's usually a bit in adulthood where they sort of see their mother a little bit more 360
and say, oh, I wish they'd wanted more for themselves
or that they'd given themselves a mission to chase some of their dreams too.
So I think there's always a bit where the parenting continues even when they're adults
and then maybe they see things and think, oh, I'm learning,
but one of the things I've learned is I want to make sure I incorporate myself into my future.
Absolutely.
But it can still be quite challenging.
And that's why I think it's such a valuable thing to really focus on mothers.
So I'm trying to think where I should start now.
So I know your daughters are eight and four.
Your twins start school in September, which is quite a big chapter, isn't it?
That's a big deal.
It's the day my book gets published.
Really?
in London for two days doing back-to-back events, the guilt.
I was going to say that's quite serendipitous, though,
because it's like a time when you can actually,
you know, there's quite a big, bold way to start having a different shape of things in your house,
a bit of family dynamic shifts.
It is.
Do you know what?
Weird date things have always happened to me.
When I got divorced, I moved back to London.
And when I moved back to London, I had a playlist.
It was very dramatic.
There was like, I will survive all kinds of shit on there.
And when I moved back, I went back into my little Bachelorette flat above a pub in North London.
And the very next day, I got a letter through, your divorce has come through. And it was my
wedding anniversary. So I literally called all my friends and I was like, I've moved back to London.
It's my divorce party. Like, and we literally had a divorce party that day. But with this book as
well, I feel like this has been a culmination of like the last five years has been, like, a lot of cry of like, savage.
Like, it's been awful. I was in lockdown when I had my twins. A single mum, lost my business,
lost all my income and felt truly out of control in my own life.
Before I remembered that I am a powerful manifester and I turned it all around,
it was to be really difficult.
And so now this coming out on the day that they start school,
I'm like, I'm ready to like share it with the world, you know,
because it was hard.
It was really hard.
Well, thank you for sharing that with me.
And my heart goes out to you.
I cannot imagine how that must have been.
I mean, that's an extraordinary to have the isolation of, you know,
single twin motherhood with little ones.
So I'm guessing they were born in 2020, is that right?
And then you've got this pronounced shut down to the world as well.
So you're all your normal punctuation marks of how you'd go out and have, you know,
little minutes to yourself or playgroups or meeting parents is really difficult in that time.
That's very isolating.
And they say to you in those early months, like it's so important to not isolate yourself,
it's so important to talk to other mothers.
And I remember there was another twin mum in the,
my village and I, and we used to take our prams in, like, December, and walk around the
village. And I remember we couldn't even stop at a bench, because it was illegal to sit on a
bench, if you remember. Like, it was illegal to sit on a bench. And so if we wanted to talk and
connect, we had to walk in the wind and rain with our push chairs. And there were so many moments,
like, I really wish someone had done, like, a whole, like, lockdown. I don't know, I'm sure people
have, but, like, when I look back at it, I think, do you remember when they went on this morning and said,
it may very well be that you will turn up to a hospital
and you could die because there won't be enough doctors
and I remember being very early on pregnant with the twins
and I went into my midwife and I said should I have an abortion?
Like I know what happens in like horror movies or zombie movies
when there's a pregnant person like they're twins
they probably can't be born naturally.
I've already had a C-section.
Should I just abort them now?
Like that was a genuine thought in my mind.
And likewise, you know, the care afterwards was nothing like you would ever see normally.
and I remember the health visitor coming round
and I just said to her is it normal
that I don't love them like is it normal
and she was like oh yeah
it will come and it didn't come
for like a solid year
and I was just left myself
and if it hadn't been like my sister
and stuff it would have just been awful
but yeah it was
sorry I felt like we're dwelling a bit
it was like a really grim time
I know I think that's really crucial
I mean that's first of all that's recent
yeah um secondly i think that's i do think that's a version of trauma isn't it that's traumatic
so i'm so sorry that's just so much to go through on your own sort of staring and uh yeah i mean
the idea of going to hospital that question is absolutely heartbreaking but i do remember um
it's actually quite it's quite refreshing to talk about because a lot of people now slightly um
i wouldn't say romanticized because that's patronizing but there's a lot of people i meet who
certainly really liked a lot of lockdown.
Yeah, people on furlough.
Yeah.
And I'm like, really?
I found it terrifying.
I did think the cruelty as well of not knowing if it was going to mutate,
if the next vulnerable people would be children,
you know, if seeing your own loved ones could make them ill.
I thought that was so cruel.
So having those new babies and being on your own, that is a lot.
Month after month.
Like, that's the thing.
It's not just breastfeeding for 14 hours a day for a day, month after month.
Obviously, there's so many people that have done it.
But, you know, like, I'm so grateful that happened because I had no money.
I had no money at all.
I had a beauty business in London.
Obviously, couldn't do that anymore.
And I remember just buying a massive bag of penay pasta.
And I just thought, well, if I have no money, me and my daughter can eat pasta with, like, olive oil.
Like, that was genuinely my thoughts.
And that's actually a part.
of the book is about setting goals for the stage of your life that you're in. And I think
so many mothers can feel not hindered, that's like a horrible word, but restricted by
whatever stage of motherhood they're in. And they think, well, this isn't my stage for me to
set goals for my life. This isn't my stage for me to metamorphosize. But actually, I look
back at that phase and I think, okay, I was trapped inside a house with newborn twins and my
daughter for over a year. I couldn't travel. I couldn't have fun in a
I couldn't really socialise because seeing other people that didn't have these trap-ins like
made me feel bad about myself. I couldn't date. I couldn't really do anything because I didn't
really have any money. And the incredible gift that gave me is I had nothing to focus on but self-development.
Yeah. I was bored. I was bored as hell. I was just breastfeeding all day. And also I wasn't
bonded. So I didn't feel like I just wanted to escape my reality. And I look back and I think,
what a blessing that was. If I could have gone,
shopping, if I could have gone to Spain, if I could have gone out on a date, I probably wouldn't
have just hyper-focused on remembering that I can create the life that I want and just thinking,
right, what do I need to focus on right now to make my life better? And at the time,
the answer was money. I just needed purpose and money. And I focused, focus, focus on it,
started the podcast, what a fucking time to be alive, do you know what I mean? And he found community
as well because that's where you create the absolute tonic that comes with finding community
cannot be underestimated I don't think I mean it's such an extraordinary amount of like
intensity in what you're telling me and the paint the picture you're painting of that time
but I'm wondering are these life skills you'd had to draw on before had there been similar
moments in your life where you'd had that feeling of just sort of turning in on yourself and
finding that cheerleader? Or was this quite a new moment where all these things collided?
I would say it was the most extreme version. So like in the past, when I first discovered
the law of attraction, it was like the mid-naughties, like everyone did, reading the secret. And I was
like, oh my God, this works. And that's just so, forgive me, I'm just getting my, that was solely
about finding a partner, right? No. It was about anything.
Yeah, just the law of attraction that you could bring anything into your life.
So I haven't read the secret. You haven't. I haven't. I haven't.
Are you, are you a manifester?
Well, this was something we would definitely be talking about
because I think there are elements of it that make complete sense to me,
but I think semantics is the difference
because I've never written down a wish list.
I don't think in the same termology.
However, listening to you speak,
because I've followed you for some time,
and I can see that your mindset, positive mindset,
framing, sort of, I suppose, the stories we tell ourselves to allow for change, for evolution,
for keeping good people near you, for shifting away from things that aren't serving you.
That stuff, completely I agree with.
Yeah.
So I feel like I haven't used the words I've manifested because probably I didn't come across
the things that resonated with you at that time.
But through experience, I think the longer.
or I do what I do and have the relationships I have,
the more I feel like one of the biggest things you can give yourself
is the ability to frame what happens to you.
And you have to learn that skill quite quickly if you're a musician
because you've got literally, you're so encouraged to think you've got some say.
You start off and everybody's, where do you see yourself in five years?
Like you've literally got any option of what that's going to look like.
No one or now, you'd be like, I just really hope I've still doing what I do.
But at the time you'll be like, oh, world domination and this kind of thing.
And then through things not working out, you, it's a bit like that, you know, the pressure
of the, you know, forming the diamond.
That's when you get that bit of you that's crystallized of like, right, these are things
that matter to me.
I've got nothing to lose.
But when I get these things back in my life, I will absolutely treasure them and I won't
let them go, you know, nurture.
So I think that I totally resonate with and I understand.
And that's why I was asking you about the termology of manifesting
Because that's I'm curious about it because I'm like
I think I think a lot of that is how my mind works
But I just haven't really used those words
Yeah
See I wondered because I saw one day that you followed me
And I was like say what
Yeah murder on the dance floor get out of town
But this was before saltburn
Yeah yeah
And I remember thinking
Sophia Alice Bexter is a manifester
I can't believe it.
She believes in the law of attraction.
And then literally a couple of months later, obviously everything blew up.
And I thought, I bet she's manifested that.
Did you?
No.
Subconsciously?
But, well, okay, again, semantics, I would say,
and I have to be careful I choose my words here
because I've got a lot of really, really talented musician friends
who I think deserve a lot more success than they have.
But I think if you're lucky enough to get certain breaks at certain time,
because there's always got to be a big, like, question mark over certain things.
But if you take those things as like, you know, if we're doing it as like a pathway,
I think by and large, through all the micro decisions you make,
I think you end up roughly with the career that suits you.
Right. Okay.
I'm saying it really carefully because I don't want to offend anyone who I think
should be doing better than they are because that's definitely the case for people I know as well.
Yeah.
But I think so long as you know, things come your way,
because you're making micro decisions all the time, aren't you?
Yeah.
And I think I started following you because I'd listened to one of your podcasts,
and I just really liked the way you spoke about the world.
Thank you.
I couldn't believe it.
I was like, you and Mrs. Hinch and Jordan.
We're in good company.
We should all get together.
Honestly, what a dream.
What a bit amazing.
Mrs. Hinch invited me to her house three times.
And then every time I replied saying, course, never replied.
Oh, wow.
I think she's just gone.
millions of people in her inbox. I mean, my inbox is like the Wild West and I've got like
60,000. I cannot imagine what hers must be like. But she'd just be like, please, can you
come to my garden and talk to my friend Faith? And I'm like, yeah, sure, nothing. But isn't
manifesting. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I would say some of this is about mindset of just
allowing yourself to think what you want for yourself, to be ambitious for yourself, to
to feel the drive in you to chase things that matter and to sort of celebrate things
and also find a way to be at peace with what happens when it doesn't go the way you're
expecting but can give you other things maybe yes am I right that is something that I have
learned to over the years I used to be so I first became well known for this because I had
very very specific manifestations come true sometimes they're very husband even gender of my twins
Yeah, no. Mental stuff. And I've learned over the years that now if something doesn't happen, that actually, you know, people are like, oh, it was not meant to be and something better was coming.
I genuinely believe that now, because I can see it in my pathway.
I can see if that lockdown hadn't have happened, if my salon had stayed open, that bit longer, if I had a singleton baby, not twins, all these things, my life would have been made a little bit easier and I'd been like, oh, I'll just carry on the path I was on.
Thank God that it just gave me a massive roadblock, and I can see that happens.
So even, you know, when you're buying a house, so many houses I looked at fell through.
And now I drive through my village being like, I nearly bought that sheep.
Like, look at it compared to the house room now.
Like, I look at it and I think, God, I can't believe I nearly bought that.
Like, what a mistake.
So I think the co-creation part, you start to have faith in yourself and in the universe, that what is best for you will show up.
But also, I'm a massive fan in.
So when I was an employee, I was terrible.
Like, I never turned up.
I was never on time.
I had all these fake illnesses.
Oh, great.
Terrible.
And so when my ex-husband was like, you should quit your job.
Like, you hate your job.
Why don't you quit your job, start a business?
I had no level of trust in myself.
Like the person I was, I thought, I can't have a successful business.
I won't wake up in the morning.
I won't be on time.
And it's only through, over the years, slowly, decision by decision,
embodying the kind of person that I want to be in the future.
Like, I think people sometimes expect they go to a seminar.
You walk across hot coals and you're like a new person.
But for me, it's waking up in the morning,
showing up for the kind of woman I want to be.
Yeah.
Even this book, right, for example, I set this up today.
If I'd sat back and waited for my publishers, I think it's like a real thing of like believing in yourself, but also showing up for yourself as well.
And also knowing yourself really well, because you know what, I suppose, especially with your book, you're thinking, where might the women that resonate with this book be, where are they finding out about things?
Where are they getting information?
So you're sort of trying to think along those lines as well.
And I suppose what we're talking about
Because I totally
I'm with you on
Like with the house thing
Before we bought our house
We put office in on like six other houses
And now I'm like
Thank goodness
None of those worked out
And sometimes when people are going through things
I'll say to them
You will end up where you're meant to be
When it's all done
That will be where you always thought
You were going to be
But I suppose what you're sort of talking about
As well is about
Building yourself kind of emotional resilience
So that you can be
as resolved a person
which kind of goes back to the motherhood aspect
when you were talking about
about your being that sort of the healthiest emotional state you can be in
because by all those teachings
and all that talking to yourself
and paying attention to how you're feeling
and trying to, you know, positive framing,
you are building emotional resilience
for all the things that previously
you might have put a negative spin on
or thought, all things are out to get me.
Do you know what I mean?
Like you can just as easily probably attract negative.
Oh, absolutely.
You know, that's the flip of it.
But just for people who haven't listened to, you talk about it before,
you mentioned that the big, big, bold brush-stroke things manifested.
They're both pretty good examples.
You mentioned your ex-husband and your twins.
So why don't we just hear about that?
I love these stories.
And I can tell the stories for you, but I'd rather hear about them.
Can you?
Yes.
This is wild that you know these.
Of course, I've got to do my research, Francesca.
Oh, love it.
Conversing would it be if I had no...
They are wild stories.
And I do sometimes think, like, do people think?
I think I've made this up or what.
But yeah, so my sister went on Match.com and she said to me, you should go on Match.com.
This is before you could do swiping.
So you just put in what you wanted.
So I did put in six foot six and above, which is a reach, but still, it paid off.
So I had one.
That's really tall, by the way.
My dad's six four.
Six, six.
Is he single?
I do just love a tall man.
I've got height fetish.
I love it.
And normally you'd get like thousands of responses.
That'd be a wild twist, by the way.
If you're dating my dad.
Wouldn't it?
You'd have to call me mummy.
I'd be like, you might manifest it.
I bloody didn't.
It's freaking me out.
It would be horrendous.
And happy Christmas.
Actually, I'd like that because I'd like to come back at this house at Christmas.
Yeah, fair enough.
Lovely.
But yeah, so one, one result came back rather than the usual hundreds or thousands.
And so I was like, wow, the second I saw this man's picture, I was like, that's my husband.
He was six foot nine, standing in front of a yacht.
Yes.
all a bit of me. So I messaged him. As soon as I messaged him, it said, no, like this user hasn't
been on for 90 days. I thought, what? So I actually ended up callingmatch.com. And they were like,
nah, data protection act, you're crazy. So I never got his number. I never got any contact
details, never even got a Twitter handle. But I printed out his picture, put it on my vision
board. And I knew that obviously I wasn't going to meet this man, obviously, but I'd like to
meet a tall six foot nine mixed race man with a yacht. That's what I'd like, please.
So two and a half years goes by, approximately, a long time.
And my friend Lucy is walking down the street in Covent Garden.
Never done this for me before.
No one's done it since.
She walks up to this very tall man and she says,
my friend's got a high at fetish.
Would you like to go on a blind date?
He says, yes, we start to speak to each other.
And he says, before we go out on Tuesday,
should we swap each other's Facebook pages?
So it's not completely blind.
It's the same profile picture.
Not just, is that the same man?
It's the same profile picture that has been in my wardrobe for two and a half years on my vision board.
So I nearly fell off my chair.
I told everyone in my office, I was like, guess what?
I'm meeting my husband tonight.
How quickly into the date did you bring it up?
20 minutes.
And it was the longest 20 minutes of my life.
I've got the most insane story to tell you.
Because I was like, how can I keep it in?
Yeah, of course.
How can I?
I think that's 20 long minutes, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I waited until at least the starters were done.
And then I was like, I've got something to tell you.
That's impressive.
I would have blurt it out straight away.
Don't be on nerve, but your profile picture has been on my wall in my locker two and a half years.
But also, wouldn't you be so flattered?
But he was very suspicious.
He thought that I was like a spy.
Second option.
Or like, yeah, he just, he thought there was something suspicious.
And then when he figured out, no, we got engaged six months later to the day.
And do you know what?
People sometimes say to me like, but you manifested the wrong thing, right?
No, right thing at the right time, right?
A hundred percent. And I know that also the second thing that people always say is, oh, well, you've got your daughter. I'm not a believer in that. Have you seen that people can have a baby with Jack the Ripper or Ian Huntley? And they're like, you'll always love the baby. The reason I'm so glad I met him is he taught me things that my own parents could never have taught me. He was the one that saw me sitting at a nine to five job that I only turned up to half of the time. He's like, you hate your life. You hate your nine to five. You get drunk all the time because you hate it. You're asleep in the office. This isn't a life. And he said,
me, right, quit your job. We moved into a flat in Shoreditch and he paid all the rent
and bills for a year. And he said, you rent your flat out and live off the income of that
whilst you build your business. And he really encouraged me to create the life that I love.
And so although we don't get on, and I'm so glad we're divorced, I'm like very happily
divorced. You can appreciate it. Absolutely appreciate. And I guess that's come back to what
you were saying about how you can look at things as either a positive or a negative. There's so many
people would say look what he did to me this was a terrible time i look back and i think thank you
for showing me a better way to live yeah and i think it's also a really good lesson and not
rubbishing things where you know you now find yourself with a different viewpoint because actually
you've got to be able to look back at yourself at different chapters of your life and trust
that you were making the right decision for yourself at that point with what was in front of you
and the wisdom you had at that time too oh absolutely i didn't know nothing but
I've made mistakes
As I'm saying it out loud
I'm like
I'm actually struggling
with some of my own advice there
but theoretically
I trust enough of myself
that I was doing the best I could
at that moment
and you're not always ready
to make change as well
that takes a lot as well
no
I've always got the energy
to confront that
or shift things
or start again
or whatever that might look like
so that's something
starting again
that's terrifying
I think especially if you don't have children
it's terrible like I knew the night before my wedding
I sat in my little bathroom with my two little lesbian housemates
I used to live with and they were like are you going to go ahead with this
and I was like well the wedding's paid for we're already legally married
like we're here in the south of France we might as well have a party
do you know what I mean sing Lana del Rate or two in the morning
but the night before the wedding I knew it wasn't right
I knew it wasn't but I didn't have the emotional intelligence
or the courage maybe to start again
now I think it's a privilege to sit here as a
40-year-old woman with my own income, my own house, three beautiful daughters. It's easy to
say, oh, I'd leave him at the altar, do you know what I mean? It wasn't that easy then. I was
like 29. I wanted children. I wanted a husband for some bizarre reason, because everyone was doing
it. Like, yeah, it's easy to say now. But also, it means that when you are writing your book or
doing your book club or your podcasts or anywhere that you're engaging with other people, you've got
these life experiences so it's backed up by all this wealth because I think otherwise you know
you if you live a life where you're always constantly bouncing against soft edges then it's
really hard to relate or even for people to feel like they could also pull themselves out of
things that don't feel like them because that's really tough um you know any sort of dysfunction
shouldn't be swept under the carpet because it's a fabric of life but then you end up being the other
side of it and saying all of these roads have led to where I'm at now. And you can't do it
without all that knowledge, can you? Oh, absolutely not. So it's important. Yeah. And people
love to see the real journey of it as well. And I always say, like, I'm not an expert. I'm just
telling you what's working for me. And I think trying to be as honest as possible, do you want to hear
about the twins? Yeah, go on. Again, I could tell this. This is my favourite. Honestly, and again, I feel
like people probably think I'm making it up, but Anushka, you can verify. Sorry, my sister's here.
You can verify. There's nodding going on.
So my sister and I grew up with a family that for one reason or another,
I know she knows more about it than I do,
but we believed we couldn't have boys.
So my mum's, no, sorry, my nan's son died very young.
My mum had a boy between my sister and I also died.
So my sister being the eldest daughter,
had to go and have all the genealogy and everything.
And she was told, guess what, it was some weird fluke,
a bit of hearsay in like the 50s,
but basically you can have boys, you're fine.
But if you've grown up with a lifetime saying, if you have a boy, you're going to have to have an abortion.
Like, it just gets into you, right?
It must have subconsciously really got into me.
So I had my first daughter.
And then when I had the twins, I was like, God, I really, really don't want boys because I really wanted a sister for my daughter.
I had all this trauma of like, you can't have boys.
But also, I was also really poor.
Like the idea of having different genders, having to buy different stuff, I just really wanted girls.
So anyway, I feel like I have to explain that.
Otherwise, people are like, why do you only like one gender?
But that was the...
And also, it's okay to have a preference, I think, in this life.
Some people want to live in Timbott, too.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, and also, I think you are...
You do indulge in thinking what kind of a baby you might have,
especially before you've had one.
It's like an abstract notion, isn't it?
It is.
And I could just see these little matching twin girls.
So anyway, so I went for one of those harmony tests, one of the early tests.
And I couldn't afford it because I had no money at this point.
Business had gone, you know, shut for ages.
And she called me up like a week later and said, I've got your test results.
The babies are all healthy because it's twins.
We don't know if it's one or two boys, but there's boy DNA there.
You're having boys.
And I was like, okay, thank you.
Bye.
Had a mental breakdown for 24 hours.
Now, I was in lockdown on my own and I was pregnant.
Yeah.
And I just phoned my sister and I was like, no, screw I'm having boys.
and I was absolutely devastated because I already didn't want twins. I've been very open about
that. Like singleton grief is a real thing. I did not want twins. I'm an attachment parent. The
idea of breastfeeding and co-sleeping and baby wearing with twins felt impossible to me. And a lot of
that did turn out to be true. So I was devastated. And for 24 hours solid, I cried. And I got to
the end of that 24 hours and I'd given my daughter to her dinner and we were sitting at the table
and I was just sitting there crying. And I thought, what am I doing? This poor little girl
has got no school, no friends, no outside communication,
and I'm sitting here crying.
And I just took out a piece of paper.
I'm sorry, right, I'm going to write down
everything I'm thankful for about this situation.
And I highly recommend this.
If you are in a very high stress-like situation,
if you've had a big argument with someone
or you've got like a big court case
or anything like that where it's like stressful,
this is a great thing to do.
So I wrote down, I'm so thankful I can get pregnant.
I'm so thankful I have a daughter already.
I'm so thankful the babies are healthy.
I'm so thankful, thankful, thankful, all this stuff, including I'm so thankful I believe in the law
of attraction and I know how to be a powerful creator. So I wrote this list and I had a vision board
on my phone that had been on there for the last couple of months of like little Pinterest images
of like matching twin girls. And I looked at it and I was like, oh, that was like a kick in the gut to like see
those pictures. And I was like a conscious decision to not change it. So wrote the list, took my daughter up to
bed, bedtime, bath routine, took about two hours, came downstairs and I had 14 missed calls.
Now, this was in the evening. This wasn't even like a nine to five time. It's the evening.
I thought it's slightly higher than usual. Called the number back and it was the lady from the
clinic. She was at home. She's like, I'm so, so sorry, this has never happened before.
Your results, they're correct. Like, everything's okay with the babies, but you're having girls.
And I literally could have fallen to the floor. Like, I felt so grateful. And I just thought,
more than the result of the twins
I was like it fucking works
it works like I had written that gratitude list
I'd seen that vision ward and I was like
there was something in me that was like nope
not accepting this reality
this is not happening
I'm having twin girls now
isn't that wild
it is wild
it's wild
it's a crazy thing for them to make
such a mistake in the first place as well I've got to say
I know
it's literally like one of the main bits of that sort of
isn't it?
I mean.
Well, she said her mum was dying of cancer
and that she was really...
So she was calling people
out of hours after
because she must have made more than one mistake on it.
Oh no.
She's going through a whole list of people.
Yeah.
But I just couldn't believe it.
It just flawed.
I was just like, oh my God.
Yeah, that must have felt absolutely bizarre
and you must have felt so sort of drained as well
because you've kind of gone through
all these permeations of this other sort of supposed outcome
and then having to be like,
I could let go of a lot of these things
I've been like trying to like now
navigate. Well, I remember saying to my dad, like, I'm just going to be sat by the edge of a football field for the rest of my life. I'm going to be watching football and cricket and rugby and I don't want to.
Well, as a mother of five boys, I've never done any of that. Really? Yeah, yeah. So it's not a given.
Wow. What do they do? Like more musicy stuff?
Different things, yeah. I mean, my second one got a little bit into football, but he's just doing GCSEs at the moment. I just finished them. So at the moment he's without a team and he would quite like to get back. But the other four are not really interested.
Okay.
Yeah.
So maybe it would not have been as bad.
I would have liked a gay son.
I'd have taken a gay son.
Also, you might find your girls get into it.
Yeah.
Yeah?
They do.
Sometimes I get really into football, you know.
Yeah, they do.
It might be okay.
And all the other things you say.
So I can't count it out either.
But if it's not in your vision board, maybe it's not going that way.
I don't know.
But I think it's like, yeah, and I suppose it's an amazing thing to go through
feeling very connected to your mind.
that way as well and all these visualising um i suppose yeah i can i can understand that because i think
it feels like control as well doesn't it and if you're feeling scared as well about the future
the idea that you can have a say and what you're navigating is really powerful but i'm thinking
about your your working life so when you had your first daughter you was that when you were
running the beauty business yes i had a beauty salon in thislington i love that i love doing that
What did you get from that that you've sort of carried with you, do you think?
Do you know what?
I think from like a mindset sort of perspective,
it's that you can be really successful at something that I don't even know how to articulate this,
but you can create the life that you want through avenues that you may not think of,
if that makes sense.
So when I told the people in my office, I was quitting to be a spray tanner.
They were like, that's mental.
But I literally would earn like 130 pounds an hour.
That's more than some solicitors.
that's a lot of money. I worked a couple of hours in the evening. I was free to do what I wanted in the day. And I created this life that I loved. And I kind of made it my own. I think what we're saying about, you can make something as amazing or not as you want. I could have been like, oh, I work in a salon with no air conditioning and it's really hot and I hate it. Instead, I was like, I'm going to be the best spray tanner in London. I spray tan live on loose women, good old Ruth Langsford. Like, I did it for loads of celebrities. Like I made it the best it could be. And I'm just.
I love that life.
Like, I absolutely, I sometimes wish I could still do spray planning and lashes.
I really miss it.
It's very therapeutic.
Well, that's lovely to hear as well, as you say, that thing of, like, frame thinking to yourself,
this is great, I get to curate it this way, I get to do these hours.
And I was thinking that that's so much, you know, the idea of sometimes as people get older,
and I don't know if you've noticed this sometimes, but I feel like the sort of two ways your mindset
second go it either kind of expands or it can kind of get smaller um like it's very easy to get into
a sort of slightly bitter because as you get into your 40s there are doors that close that won't
open again and that's okay like I'm a piece with my you know non-gymastic career or whatever it's
when I know now no will never happen for me but I do think if you're not careful you can get a bit
um about sad about opportunities or I suppose like people who come to terms with where they're at
and feel a bit crossed that there wasn't something else.
And I do think it's something you've got to be really careful with.
So I think that's another reason why what you're encouraging in people with your book club
and your book and everything is to think, just to be careful of how you keep your mind feeling good
about all the places you're at because you are now sort of realizing there won't be infinite
decades stretching your head.
Do you agree with that?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I do think it's wild how we are conditioned to feel like turning forward.
is something to be scared about and midlife as a woman.
Like you say, doors close.
I feel like these days they don't as much.
I think you're right.
But I've definitely noticed some people I've met,
they start, what am I trying to say?
They may be like not as curious about the world as they used to be.
And I think it's really good to stay open to, I don't know,
thinking about other people's experiences and what everybody's going through
and sort of, I suppose, allowing the stories.
of when you felt vulnerable to be part of where you found yourself in a way that makes
people feel less alone when they remember those times.
Yeah.
So you sort of leave, let go of any bitterness, I suppose.
Yes, and it is.
It's so easy to feel bitter about the past, isn't it?
There's so many things that if I let it consume me, I could be so, so bitter, but it's
a conscious choice to not.
And it's work sometimes.
I have an ex that is very difficult sometimes, and rather than get consumed by it and feel like this person's trying to ruin my life, I write a gratitude list about him. I do it regularly every time. And it absolutely works every single time. There's so many things that, one of the things I feel resentment for actually is a lot of people in my sort of industry that don't have children. And they can just go and record 10 podcasts a day and go on an influencer trip and go here. And I'm like,
I want to do that like that can feel really hard but I feel like also 2025 what a time to be alive like in our 40s and being able to create what we want without really any um what do you call them gatekeepers yeah that's true like I feel like the gatekeepers are going if you want to make a album record it yourself you want to make a podcast record I'm not waiting for anyone you're right there's a pure a system for getting things out into the world what a time what was going on in your life when you're
You had the twins then.
What were you doing with your work at that point?
I mean, I know it was lockdown, but what role was manifesting in your world at that time?
So my plans for my life were wildly unhinged.
And they all were like, if one little thing had fallen, the whole system would have fallen down.
So I had my salon in London.
My goal when I first became a single mother, me and my daughter moved into my little one-bedroom flat above a pub, shared a bed, shared a wardrobe.
Not ideal, had the time of our lives.
And I've become the bedrock of your relationship as well
That's time
Do you know what?
I look back at it
And I'm like that was incredible
We did yoga every night
Oh anyway it was incredible
Oh that's a very sweet little image
It was and you know what
It always sounds like I'm talking about
She must have only been like three or something
She was two or three
I think she was two and three
Yeah
Cosmic kids on the TV
Super bendy actually as well at that age
Yeah
She couldn't do it now
But it was incredible
And you know
Like I don't want to make it sound like we were
in the Second World War, but we used to have one painting book, one set of paints and two paint
brushes. And after dinner, we would just sit and paint this one little book together, because
we had no space for anything. It's a one-bedroom flat, like 500 square foot. And we had a really
pure and simple life. We did a lot of stuff, you know, went to the city farm, sat at rooftop,
you know, short-ich house on the rooftop, like having our breakfast. We were living our best lives.
But it wasn't, you know, forever. And so the goal I set myself then was by the time she starts
school, I want to buy a house in the country, close to my family. I want it to go to a little
village school and have enough space to have a sister for her, because that was really important
to me. And I achieved that goal. Just before I got pregnant, I bought a little house in this village
I wanted. This was my wild plan, right? The two, three days a week that my ex-husband would have
her, I would travel down to my flat in London. I would work in my salon all the hours God could
attend. I would then Airbnb my flat the rest of the time, travel back up on the train and live in
my house and a car after the rest of the time. That was it, right? And then of course, when lockdown
happened, all the Airbnb's cancelled. The salon was shut down. And then I thought, hang on,
how would I take two babies on a track? Like, it was just, it was too much. One baby, I probably
could have done it.
Well, every avenue that I'd ever known how to earn money, and I'm a hustler, like I will
make things happen. Like, they were all shut down. Yeah.
could not earn money anyway. And it was, it was terrifying. I mean, I bought the pasta. Panic
bought the pasta in bulk. Yeah. Yeah. But it didn't take long for me to remember, hang on,
the law of attraction does work. I was in that like race to the bottom where people would be like,
oh no, I'm on furlough. And I'd be like, are you? Are you a single mom? Are you self-employed?
Have you just taken on a second mortgage? Have you got no money? Are you pregnant with twins? Like,
I was literally, I was trying to compare myself to every person and being like, you haven't
got it as bad as me.
And then there was just one day when I realized, actually, this could be like something
incredible.
Yeah.
This could be a great gift.
So at that time was the, you know, the sort of law of attraction and the learnings of
that from like the sort of mid-noughties, did you say you were reading that?
So that was just sort of simmering alongside, like something you would have alongside.
I guess you're in the doing with a very young daughter and then you're.
you're probably not, were you not giving it, like, was it anything like what it takes up in,
what is in your life now?
It was the YouTube channel and I grew to hate it because the lighting having to put makeup on.
This is what I hate about podcasts these days.
I'm so glad that you're like a purist with this because so many people film their podcast.
And then they talk about, oh, look at this.
And I'm like, it's a podcast.
I can't look at this.
I love that I could just do it in my dressing gown.
I love that I could just do it with no makeup on.
But I really did just start it because I wanted to help myself.
selfishly, and I wanted accountability.
I thought, I know this works.
If I start a podcast, I can share the journey, have to do it.
So when did that start?
What year was that?
It was like 2020, probably in the summer.
So proper mids lock down.
Baby's not born then?
No, not yet.
And I took one week off when they were born.
What?
I'm very proud of myself for that, yeah.
But yeah, it really, so many people message me and say, oh my God, your podcast saved my life.
I bet you had this click of doing the first one
and getting these really lovely responses
and then it just snowballing.
It was helping people.
Yeah.
It was really helping.
But I was always like, no, you're helping me.
Yeah, exactly.
Sounds like kitchen disco for us.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Of just finding those people.
And that's why I said about community.
It's amazing what a tonic it is for yourself.
And just the ability to have a, you know,
people to share things with.
It's such a like human desire, I think.
Yeah.
To have that connection,
and particularly if the reality with the babies in the buggy
and the other mum, you'd walk around and no benches.
It's a lot to lose out on that contact.
It is.
And also, like, even now, you know, I live in a countryside village.
My office is in my house.
And do you know what's wild?
I've been doing this five years.
I don't feel lonely.
I've never felt lonely because every day I'm talking to my audience.
And they're incredible.
I mean, you must feel this when you meet people.
Who's that guy?
that was on the in-betweeners.
The one, I can't remember his name, the actor.
The one who does really well with, oh gosh, my brain.
That's cruel, I can't think.
Not Simon Bird, there's another.
No.
You know, the one with the haircut.
Yes, James.
James.
Something.
Yes, him.
I always remember seeing a thing of him.
And they were like, what's it like to have, like, fans?
And he was like, it's fucking amazing.
Everywhere you go, people are pleased to see you.
And that's how I feel when I meet people
They're always like
Oh I don't want to interrupt you with your children
And I'm like this is the highlight of my day
You're my people like talk to me
We've got shared trauma
And it's yeah it's incredible
Yeah and it's energising I think
It makes me feel topped up actually
Those sort of interaction
Sometimes you think
That person doesn't realise how much
That's really pepped me up actually
Just having a nice little comment
Or something that there's resonated with them
I love that very much as well
And so with your sort of daily life
And I'm thinking for me as well, what would be a way to, how does you, how does it manifest, you're manifesting?
So everything in the book, I wanted it to be something that mothers could realistically do in their life.
So it's not talking about adding anything new in that's going to take up tons of time and energy.
This actually came about because I was reading a book, what is it called, The 5am Club?
Have you ever read that?
No.
Clearly written by a man who does not look after children.
Is it like how much you can achieve in the morning if you get up a 5.
You've got to get out, journal, meditate, exercise.
I was like, absolutely not.
A meditation would send me back to sleep if I'd got up at five.
Yeah.
I mean, eyes close.
I'm like, it's 11 o'clock.
But also, if you are co-sleeping, breastfeeding, any of those things, like none of these self-development books,
which I knew worked, by the way, they were amazing, but none of these mentioned childcare or responsibilities.
They were all written by men.
Or headspace when there's little people needing you.
I mean, like, I mean, we have.
had to lock my six-year-old out of the moment I say so I very much know how hard, especially
during lockdown actually for me. The headspace thing was, that was really tough. I felt like
I had nowhere to go that was just for me. I've really struggled with that. So I think, yeah,
you're right. That perspective has not been well represented. It hasn't. It's never been talked
about before. Penguin initially wanted me to do a book that was just about manifested and I was like,
nah, I'm not interested because it's been done so many times before. I want this to be something that
women pick up and they're like, oh my God, this is, this is something that I can apply into
my life. So it talks about things like, like we talked about earlier, like setting goals for
the season of your life. If you feel incredibly trapped by a part of your life right now,
and that sounds horrible to feel trapped, but that is how many women feel. Look at how you can
turn that and use it to your advantage. There's also parts about like your home being, like setting
up an environment for success. I'm a massive fan of this. I think your home environment or your
environment in general can either be your sanctuary or it can be a massive source of stress.
Agreed. And so many people, you know, they talk about if there's lots of clutter around,
how it actually raises your cortisol, your brain, you can't think about what you want to do
because you're like, oh, look at all the mess. So creating an environment that actually helps
you achieve your goals rather than hinders you on a practical level, but also like an energetic
level, dressing for the life that you want. But also like really practical things, like the law
of attraction, I think anything that you want to incorporate into your life thrives on consistency
and routine. And what are children on? Consistency and routine. So things in the past I've found
difficult to implement on my own, I find when I involve my daughters, it makes it stick. So every
single night when we go to bed, I say, what is the best and worst thing that happened today? It's
what we do every night now. And if I forget, they certainly are like, Mom, what's your best
and worst thing and we do it every single night. Something else I love doing is crafting your
vision. So when my daughters would want to just paint or draw constantly, they'd want me to sit
and do it with them. But of course, you're thinking, I've got to take the washing out, I've got to do
the dinner, I've got to do this, that and the other. It can be hard to like switch off and do it.
So I started to just draw my dream house. I would just start drawing my dream house. And I'd do what
I wanted the windows to look like, a pool in the back garden, this, this, this, you know, a blossom
tree and I would just draw it and paint it over and over. So the children have got me there.
I'm present, I'm connected, I'm painting with them, I'm getting involved. This is what I mean,
but sometimes I feel like it feels almost like too basic, but for mothers that every day
are confronted with laundry piles, endless crafts with children. These are real tangible things
that you can use in your life. Another thing is talking to laundry. I discovered like the
cognitive break of mundane tasks. So like a lot of my work is very like high octane in terms of
like thinking power. And I'm having to think like right, I've got to research this episode or I've got to
do this, I've got to do that, I've got to read this, I've got to learn this. We rarely get a chance
now to just have a cognitive break. So like meditation ain't got time. But did you know that folding
laundry unloading the dishwasher, they can all be classed as meditation? It's doing something with
your hands that doesn't take mental flow state yeah so once you start to take those tasks and
you think rather than thinking oh this is taking up all my time I'm resenting doing this I don't want
to do this instead you think this is my mindfulness time let my mind be blank and actually your
creative ideas come to you so much faster yeah I love all those ideas especially like the one
you spoke about the with the craft idea because I think it also connects you to a part of your brain
that you can really switch off, which is that the one we encourage our kids to have all the time
with imagination and positive thought, you know, what do you want to be when you're being?
Where do you, you know, tell me about your future that you imagine for yourself.
We encourage it with our kids all the time, but sometimes we don't really play like that for
ourselves. What do I want for myself? What am I thinking here? What do I, if, you know,
if I'm not anchored by anything, where do I see it going? That's such a powerful thing.
And really, a really wonderful way as well to re-engage with that side of yourself, I think,
especially if you are in those early years bits
where your head does feel so full
and you're micromanaging things all the time.
So I think that's a really, really lovely idea.
And do you think that, I suppose with your daughters,
you're seeing it in real time?
I love the best and worst thing as well.
I should do that with mine.
That's a nice idea
and encourages them to sort of think about their day differently
and share things that they might not normally share
if you just say, how did that go or how a school or whatever might have happened.
But so engage with their emotional response
to things because the best thing might be something that you're really surprised to hear
you know which is really sweet as well um how do you find it with your you know because we were
we started at the beginning you're talking about that lady um put a comment about your actually
i think you said it's a woman who said the comment about you know you're being away for five
nights how do you navigate that because you mentioned attachment parenting and co-sleeping and
so these are obviously like you know part of the like very tactile parts of your life and how are you
how do you give yourself the permission with the work? Are you good at that? I say this is
someone who struggles and also somebody goes away a lot, so no judgment over here. It's very
hard, isn't it? Like the struggle, I don't think ever ends. So I find one of my real practical
things I do is every Sunday I plan out my week in advance. I know this is very basic,
but I never used to do this. I didn't know what I was doing for one day to the next. And it
sounds mental, but I do literally schedule in quality time. I will write in there quality time. So
on a Monday, me and the girls, I don't have to think about emails, I don't have to think about
work, I don't have to think, oh God, I've got to be doing that. No, Mondays are just for us to be
together. And it gives me that headspace just to think, I don't have to do anything until
Tuesday. Like, there's no obligations. And so scheduling in times where I'm very, very good
at not looking at my phone in front of them, and that is a conscious effort all the time.
Well done. That's good. Yeah, but it's hard, but I have to do it. But it's just, yeah, scheduling in
those block times where I say, right, these are the times where I am in mum mode and I'm just
doing that.
Yeah.
But I think it's also really important for them to see that I have needs and I also have desires,
not just needs.
Like I don't need to do everything, but I desire to do it.
Yeah, yeah.
And you're working hard to achieve these things as well.
Yeah.
To follow the, you know, the momentum.
Yeah.
I love the fact you talk about money as well.
I don't think that comes up often enough.
I think there should be more chat with that.
And I don't think we're always encouraged to celebrate.
our successes either. I think culturally we're not very good at knowing what to do with success
sometimes actually. Yeah. And I think talking about that thing as well. And success breeds success too,
doesn't it? So the more you put out about the things that are doing well, the more it can attract
people going well, okay, well it's understandable that that might happen for you. They sort of see it
more for you if you're putting it out there. Yeah. Rather than if you're diminishing things all the time.
Oh, do you know what? There's an amazing book called Brag Better by Meredith Fine.
and I read it years ago
and she said,
you have to brag about your success.
So I remember when I was doing the spray tanning,
anytime I'd do a celebrity,
you better believe my website changed.
Their picture went straight on there.
And like literally my email signature
would be like, Celebrity Spray Tanner, too,
this person, this person.
I put it everywhere.
You have to brag about your achievements
because they'll just get lost.
Yeah, it's a noisy world.
It feels like you're doing something a bit
that we're not really encouraged to do.
But I think it's actually a really good thing.
And I do think it's cultural.
I think in Britain we're not brilliant at it, usually.
Especially as women as well.
Celebrating ourselves in general, I feel like,
do you know, something I have changed in recent years,
and I love it, is I am not blessed with ex-partners
who will say to the children,
you should get mum a birthday card,
you should get mum a Christmas present, Mother's Day.
I don't have that.
It's fine, it is what it is.
So for a couple of years,
I went just having nothing on these days.
And then it was my daughter Levoe, who's actually my youngest daughter, saying,
why do you never get anything that you don't get birthday cars or anything like that?
And I was like, you're right.
So she sounds like a sweet soul.
She is an old soul.
Yeah.
I don't know what she's going to.
She's named after the voodoo witch.
Who knows what she's going to be?
And I started buying myself very bougie presents for Christmas, birthdays, Mother's Day.
And I would start to celebrate myself.
I thought if no one else is going to do it, I will do it.
I will literally buy myself a Mother's Day present.
And it only took one year of doing that
And they now create incredible celebrations for me
So at 8 and 4
On my birthdays and Christmas and Mother's Day
I have to stay in bed
They go downstairs
They make like a hospital bed for me
It's the weirdest thing ever
Made out of like soft play and blankets
They make a hospital bed
They get a bottle of rosé wine
Fruit
They put relaxing music on for me
They make me all these things
And then they're like, come down, mother
And I lay there
And I think God that's one year
of modelling how I deserve to be treated
and if someone else isn't going to show you
I'll show you how I deserve to be treated
and it's taken one year
and they now treat my birthday
and Mother's Day as they should
like the Queen that I am
I love that
it's amazing they've got so little to give
and they give so much
well I suppose as well you've already
you've demonstrated to them
what I think becomes the biggest thing
you can give people which is time
tension and time so by having that
Monday by having the, you know, the things you've put in place as being common, but that
will, that's very valuable. Yeah. I do think. And maybe that's also why you're not squeamish
about talking about money because you've, you know, once you've got to the place you need where
you can live comfortably, you can also just start to be like, right, this is actually where the
moral compass, you know, what I want to really indulge is the actual main focus, which is attention
and time and listening to each other. Do you know what people have said to me, so many times when I've
been like, I'm so overwhelmed. I'm so stressed. They're like, you could have a full-time
nanny. Why don't you put them in nursery five days a week? Why don't you have an opair?
But for me, this is something mothers will always encounter, no matter how much money you make
or how successful you are. You cannot outsource motherhood. You cannot outsource love.
And so we shall continue to struggle. You can't? You can't. Can you? Like, you can outsource
childcare, but you can't outsource love. So it is a constant struggle of like, there's certain
times, like during the promotion of this book, I'm not there to pick them up on their first day
of school. I'm not there. That's something I'm going to have to come to terms with, but it means
that there's going to be other times where I'll be there abundantly more than moms that work
9 to 5 because I've created that life for us. So I use this, I say the same thing to my kids too.
Yeah, it's like waves, isn't it? It's like not a straight line. It's like sometimes I'm not going to
be here, sometimes I will and it'll be amazing and we'll be in Dubai. Yeah. And it also means you're
teaching them about the things we've been speaking about about the emotional resilience
and about the framing because it means that they're not going, oh, I feel really sad because
my mum's not here today.
They're going, she's not here today, but because of what she's doing, we'll have other ways
to do other things.
So I try and encourage that as well.
I think if you work in an environment that's not structured and where you're basically
picking your own, you know, making it bespoke, then I think you have to like find your way
of building in some sort of, I don't know, narrow.
with the family that works for you so that you're everybody's feeling kind of their needs are met
including including yourself sort of thing but also i do feel like as well when people sometimes say like
oh don't you feel guilty leaving the children i'm like can we just remember i'm a single mother with a
single income like household do you know what i mean like can we remember this like lots of mothers
people like don't you feel guilty i have to work life is expensive like yeah i just find it funny like
Do people say that to men?
I don't think so.
No, there's a whole different.
I mean, yeah, that could be a whole other hour of our chat.
And probably part of the reason why I started this podcast as well
because I was feeling, yeah, the questions would come.
But also I really like hearing from other women
who have had to deal with similar things, similar issues,
dealt with lots of stuff,
and they're still very committed to family life,
but also want things for themselves.
I think it's really helped me.
yeah for sure well like you said about you want your children when they're older to still like
not respect you because they're going to respect you but be impressed with you as like an adult
as a human i don't want my children to just see me as i was a martyr i was a caregiver and that's
all i did my daughter went as me for world book day last year what a flex what an iconic move
which daughter is this the oldest one she said she wants to get i got an amazon i got a blonde wig as
fast as I could and she went as me and I was like wow like that's what I want to have that incredible
it is so cool but I often think about you know we're always like oh I don't want them to grow up
I can't wait until they're adults and I can say girls we're going to New York do you know what I mean
like I look forward to that adult relationship and I want to be a fully formed human not someone
who lost themselves completely in motherhood I might be wrong but do you feel at this point
you've kind of got for yourself the pillars of what you needed or is there still a lot of
kind of you know visionary things you're thinking of for each day of where you're hoping to
get because it feels like you've done so much very quick quickly but with with what you've
managed to achieve like thinking back to you know you're just grabbing lockdown and new babies
and and how bleak it felt at times are you still thinking for more things there's more
there's more I feel like this doing it for mothers I feel like is my calling because there's so many
people that say oh my god this stuff works but I fell off the bandwagon or my child got ill or I didn't
have the time and I know that women have the power to create a life of freedom that's essentially
what it is is freedom and so I want to turn this into a TV show manifest like a mother like
queer eye but just for mums oh yeah go in sort their house out sort their wardrobe back
make some scheduling changes so they feel more supported and more free and then start to do
things they love. It's the small things that will make such a massive difference. Yeah, I suppose
you're talking about the mental declutter really and then... And a physical one. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, okay. I love a lot. We actually did one here, but it's quite hard to tell to me.
I did. I did it with Dillie Carter. Oh, I love her. Yes, so do why. We did it from this attic down.
Got rid of so much stuff. I've still got so much stuff. How long ago did you do it?
Like earlier this year.
Wow.
Was it amazing?
Did you feel amazing after?
I'm only laughing because it's like a bit sheepish.
I mean, you have come around during summer holidays to be fair, some stuff everywhere.
But yeah, I absolutely loved it.
And if you open like drawers and cupboards in a really good state.
Wow.
We didn't really have time to do like what's on top of the cupboards and on top of the sides
because it was too busy going through all the electrical cables, old photographs, admin,
everything, everything.
Yeah, literally attic down.
Wow.
I'd have loved to have been here for that
and I'd have just had a little carrier bag out
for anything I wanted
do you know what I mean?
Oh gosh yeah
Can I have that
Behind the sofa
there's probably some things left
but I think
yeah I love the idea of the TV show
because also I think
sometimes those stories can be so
those people can feel so invisible
I think
Oh yes
And I mean it sounds like you touch the sides of that
When your babies were born
particularly your youngest two
And you know you spoke about
What did you call it?
Singleton
Oh the grief of not having a single baby
It's real. When I first found out I was having twins, I cried for three days. I couldn't leave my apartment. Like, I was just crying. It was awful. Because that's, you know, when you imagine having a baby, just like how you imagine, like, what it might look like if you have a girl or a boy, sometimes you don't want three children. I was a single mom. Like, I didn't want three children, especially not two at once. I've talked about it quite a lot and it does get like mixed, but the multiple moms know what I'm talking about.
Oh, I have, I've got twins in my family, my brother and sister on my dad's side of twins.
Right.
And I could see how overwhelmed they were when they were born and how these very wanted babies.
But just, it's hard.
I think they would probably say it was very hard to enjoy those early bits
because it's all about just getting things done all the time and keeping up with stuff.
The feeding all through the night, obviously, and like no rest.
So I've seen like firsthand the intensity, you know, the love, yes, all those things.
but it's it's full on and another one as well so yes not dissimilar we have a
have a sister on that says we're a bit older right so he had like three under three oh my god
yeah and it's full on it's the intensity but also I don't have any memories of either of them
so like you know like you'd have a memory of like sitting on the beach with a baby in a sling
and the sun's setting and you're like oh this is a lovely moment I don't know who that was
I don't know if that was Reeva or Oliver I don't know I have no memories of either of them at all
not one. The only memory I have two weeks ago, my daughter Reaver and I went to a festival
to see a fake Taylor Swift and Chapel Rhone, and she's nearly five years old. It's the first
day I've ever had out with her on her own. I don't know who she is on her own. It's bizarre.
And it's, I know it's quite a niche thing to talk about because not everyone will understand it,
but yeah, twin like grief is a lot, I think, for certain people. Some people love it. They
embrace it. Octumum, bet she loves it. Not me.
no but then I think well first I like the honesty of it but also I think it's a good example as well
of when we spoke about when they rang up and said oh we got it wrong it's actually girls not boys
but there wasn't a phone call to say it's not twins it's one and you still deal with it right
like there's just like there's things that come with the things we don't plan for ourselves
and we think that we don't want that now you would never oh yeah yeah so I think that's actually
I quite like the ying and yang of that actually.
I think if you're open and honest about one thing,
it's okay to shine light onto the bits that people don't talk about as much.
But I know, as I said, I have first-hand experience.
I know that's absolutely it.
There's actually a part in the book where I actually say in there,
like I've written this and deleted it five times
because I don't ever want, I've got to cry at least once.
I'm such a crier.
But I don't ever want my daughters to read something
or hear something where I'm like, I didn't bond with you.
I didn't really want, like I didn't, I struggled with this and I was trying to find an escape from caring for you.
And then I put it in because I was like, do you know what, my daughters are most likely going to be mothers.
And I think to not talk about not bonding with your baby or twin grief or whatever it might be, even gender disappointment, people have that.
I think to not talk about it is doing such a disservice to mothers everywhere.
So there are some very honest bits in there that I know that they will probably have questions when they're older, but I feel like they need to know.
Yeah, and also this is like the future where they've also had all the years and years of what your relationship is about.
Oh, yeah.
Nothing to fear.
Oh, they're my favourites now.
There you go.
Well, thank you so much.
Thank you for the book.
I'm going to get stuck in.
Do you think I'm a manifester from what I've been speaking about it?
I think you are.
Honestly, I just feel like the fact that you started following me, and I'm not saying that I was the creator of this, but I'm just saying the fact that you were like, oh, law of attraction.
Yeah.
And then literally a couple of months later, your song from what?
what, 20 years before, suddenly was like everywhere.
Oh my God, did you manifest it for me?
No, I don't think I manifested it.
But I'm just saying, maybe even if you consciously...
What can you do for me?
But I just think, don't you think?
Like, I think that's a prime example of someone could say like, well, there's no way that song is done.
You're never going to get anything more from that.
And then all of a sudden, all these 20-year-olds are singing it in clubs.
Like, what?
I do think you have to be open to things for sure.
I think you have to be...
Don't complain.
show up, get on with stuff,
be open to opportunity, 100%.
And I think you have to really seize
and enjoy the good energy
that comes along with unexpected adventures.
I would definitely go with that.
And actually, while you're speaking,
I was always remembered.
Firstly, practicing my signature over and over and over at school
thinking one day I'll probably need to sign things,
which is a bit of a cheesy thing to admit,
but it's true.
My girlfriends would be like, yeah,
I scribble over their maths books.
And I had a bit of paper.
paper where I drew the outfit I'd like to accept my Oscar in.
So there might have been a little bit of manifesting.
I mean, I sort of shifted my attention a little bit, but I think little me.
Same vibes, though.
Same vibes.
What you wore to Glastonbury with the tassels.
Oh, yeah, that's good enough.
Please say you've still got that.
You didn't declutter it, did you?
Thank God.
No.
Oh, you've got to wear that to your funeral?
I don't know, somewhere.
Yeah.
Amazing.
I mean, they'd be trailing out of the car.
I dropped those everywhere.
I have done all different colors, and I will hook you up.
You deserve to have one of those things.
Oh, my God.
Yes, I do.
You're right.
Thank you.
Oh, how lovely is Francesca and how absolutely, what's the word?
What's the word I'm trying to say?
When you catch something.
Infectious.
the words, how absolutely infectious is Francesca's positivity. And I have thought a little bit about
that whole manifesting, because as I said in my intro, I think there's a lot of crossover
between Francesca's perspective and mine. But I think the main thing is, it's always good to
hear people talk about the ways they have turned their lives around and what has worked for
them and then passed on that knowledge to others. And I've got a very good friend who is
absolutely a manifesto, and I can see how it's transformed her whole perspective, her whole
outlook. So if that is something you're more interested in, her book, Manifest Like a Mother
is out, and it's absolutely got Francesca's brilliant tone of voice, where she wants good things
for you, and she is a great example of what manifesting can do. Her life has been totally
turned around, and it was a joy to talk to her. I think I struggled to find the word
infectious because I've just completed a three-hour signing in Birmingham, HMV.
So my brain cells are a little bit rinsed.
It was so lovely to meet everybody.
I was informed at the end that I signed things for 324 people.
So thank you so much.
If you're one of them, it's really tricky with the signing because everybody's queuing up
and I know really, like, you know, no one wants to have to stand in a queue for three hours.
But from my point of view, it's so nice to meet everyone and hear their stories and see what fun bits they brought along for me.
So, yeah, thank you for everybody who's been seeing me this week and all your stories and all the memorabilia, all the trips down memory lane. I've loved it.
Right, I'm off to Nantwich. Tomorrow I've got BBC breakfast. Tuesday, I'm in Kingston. Oh, tomorrow and I'm in Brighton. Wednesday, I am doing Lorraine.
And then Thursday, I am off to Scotland. I've got Edinburgh signing in Glasgow for some singing.
And then Friday I'm celebrating my mother's 70th birthday. What a week.
All right, lots of love.
Thank you so much for joining me again for the podcast,
a series, whatever this is, is Go.
Got some lovely guests lined up for you.
Have a wonderful, wonderful week.
And thank you for lending me your ears and your time.
Let's love.
Thank you.