Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 168: Fiona Bell

Episode Date: November 3, 2025

Fiona Bell is the founder of Their Nibs clothing brand which specialises in night wear. I first came across Fiona’s shop when pushing my eldest son around Ladbroke Grove in his buggy in the mid naughties. And I still think she makes the loveliest pyjamas in the land!Fiona has a 25 year old son Finn and an adoptive daughter Maggie who is 11.We talked about the close link Fiona still keeps with the adoption agency Coram, which made her and her husband Charlie’s adoption of Maggie possible. It has been an emotional journey but so worth it, she says. And her advice to anyone planning to adopt is: 'as an adoptive parent you've got to be selfless because you've got to accept you might not get very much back, but if you work at that, you definitely do'.Maggie has obviously brought so much joy to the whole family. Listen to the interview to hear why I think Fiona’s next PJ print should be rainbows and ginger cats. Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lusbexter and welcome to spinning plates, the podcast where I speak to to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons, age 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how you're going to be a bit nosy and see how you're going to be. other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates. Ola. I say Ola, because I'm in Mexico. But not for too much longer. We are waiting by

the gate. I'm about to fly to Toronto. And it has been such a lovely trip. We've been here, oh, I think it's only been about 48 hours. I know less than that. We got here late on Friday night. It's now Sunday lunchtime. And yesterday, we had like a 20-hour day, basically, starting in the morning and out for a good coffee, a jack, and tacos for lunch with the rest of the band. We went for a wonder

and saw the Day of the Dead parade of the aftermath of that so people dressed up and things for sale and things that people have been carrying around on the parade. And then went to the venue where we were on stage at 1 a.m. for a big Halloween party.

So Halloween Day of the Dead crossover party in a disused film lot so a couple of thousand people really dressed up. It was great I have not had much sleep. It was really good and the band looked awesome because they had like face paint and stuff so it's really cool and now yeah at the airport waiting to fly to Toronto

got two more shows to do before we fly home so Toronto on Monday, New York on Tuesday but everything's been going really well I love the gig in Vancouver, San Francisco Los Angeles. It's been really, really, really good. And we have, oh, three episodes left of the podcast. So this week, oh, it's a lovely woman filled Fiona. Now Fiona and I met, Fiona Bell, it's a full name, Fiona and I met back in, I would say 2004, 2005. When I was living with Richard and our newborn baby son, Sunny, we were living in Labrote Grove. And I used to

take Sonny out in the buggy all the time and wander around. You know what it's like those early days with a small baby when you're just wandering about, you know, you'll have like something tiny for your day, like, I'm going to meet a friend for coffee, or I'm just going to walk around the block and get some milk. And then I would walk around the little shops that sold children's clothes because I actually didn't buy anything for Sonny before he was born.

So his wardrobe was quite scanty when he arrived. So I would go and pick up bits and bobs. And one of the places I love to go to, so a little independent shop called Verneed, that at the time was situated inside a bit of Portobello called Portobello Green. Lots of really cute lot shops. Anyway, the founder of their nibs is Fiona, and Fiona is still making beautiful things.

This time she has focused it to, well, I said this time, over the years, she has focused it to nightwear. Really beautiful pajamas. I love pajamas. I don't say this lightly. They are really gorgeous, beautiful prints, great cut. You can get them a sort of satiny finish or nice cottons. what some of each and I love them very much and I think you can tell them bewed with

you know warmth and thoughtfulness nice attention to detail so Fiona the founder we crossed baths again recently and we started talking about her work with Coram the charity Corum which she has a very close relationship with because Corum helped Maggie and her partner adopt their daughter Maggie who is now 11 she also has a 25 year old son called Finn so a little bit older than my firstborn. And I was, as soon as I started talking to my guest said, would you be comfortable coming on the podcast and talking about the adoption process? Because it's something that we haven't really covered, actually, in too many specifics. And I know it's something a lot of people go through, not least in my own family. I have an adopted sister, Dulce. She's now

28. So I have memories of that from when I was a teenager. But I suppose I haven't thought about it from the adult perspective in this way in this conversation for the podcast. So, yeah, really, really perfect. Sorry about all the tannoy. I'm going to hop off now so you can hear Fiona's lovely voice, not mine. But it's an emotional, moving, beautiful story

that begins and ends with a cozy nightwear, which is kind of fitting for a wholesome ending to family life. You know, that's what she's created with her home life and with her gorgeous business. So over to you, Fiona, and see you on the other side from Mexico City Airport. It's so nice to see you.

And tell me about the world of their nibs, because for me, whenever I think of your brand, it takes me right back to Labrote Grove, sort of mid-naughties when I had my first little boy and I used to go in my buggy. Around the place of time I'm going to your shop. Yes, I do remember that. So, yeah, so the brand evolved really from a bit of adversity.

So I was left as a single mum when my now 25-year-old was two. His dad left unexpectedly and I had a big job in fashion. I was a senior buyer at Laura Ashley at the time, which meant lots of traveling, lots of traveling to Hong Kong. and it was just impractical trying to do both things be a mum and at that time there wasn't the flexibility of working like there is now in the fashion business you're either in it or you're out of it

so I suppose I come from a family of entrepreneurs I sort of remember as a kid always wanting to think of business ideas in fact when I was about seven I walked up and down the road that we lived on at the time picking flowers in people's gardens and knocking on the door and trying to sell them their own flowers, which is obviously a bit dishonest

but it was the start of a seed in my head of like, yeah, I want to do something on my own. So I came up with a name because I used to call Finn his nibs, which is the northern expression. Whereabouts are you grew up? In Yorkshire. Oh, lovely. So yeah, the kind of

tones are still there after many years. in London, you'd ever lose them. So, yeah, so his nibs came about and originally it was a children's brand and obviously you remember that, so from your days when sonny was little. So we opened a shop in Kensington Park Road which was sort of fairly local to me.

I'm northwest London and the idea and the ethos of the brand is still very much embedded in where we are now. So it's quite eclectic, It was much more vintage inspired then. In fact, I had an area at the back of the shop where we had children's vintage clothes, which are sourced from all over the place, a bit from Relic, who are local, very well-established vintage shop.

So lots of the shapes were based on vintage. Lots of the prints were based on vintage ideas. And it became sort of part of Kensington Park Road for 15 years. That must have been quite. Well, I mean, unpicked that a little bit, though, because he said you started with adversity, but going back, so when you had Finn, first of all, that was when you're working at Laura Ashley. Yeah. And you must have been a pretty young mum, right? Did you always want to be a mother?

Were you expecting to become mother at that time? I did always want to be a mum, and I, he was, you know, it was the most joyful thing having Finn, and he still is, you know, a joyful young. man at 25 is an amazing young man. So yeah, I always wanted to be a mum, but I would caveat that by saying I also love my career and I was never going to be a mum that would be a stay-at-home mum. I think I would have found that quite tricky, which back then when Finn was that age, I think I would have found that quite hard to say out loud actually, but I went back to work very quickly because at that time I didn't have a choice. It was, I needed financially to go back to work. So, so having the mixture, which I did eventually, when I opened the business,

of having a bit more flexibility being a mum, but still winning my own business and having that excitement, it was a perfect combination for me. It felt like I'd sort of won the lottery with that because you know I could be there for him when he was still at nursery in fact he was in nursery in Portobella Road

so the whole thing practically worked really well so yes it was out of adversity the sort of setting up the business in the first place but it became really joyful for him and me

and he's got lovely memories of those times it was you know it was exciting for him as well and just in terms of setting up starting a new business. I've spoken to quite a few entrepreneurs for the podcast and I'm always fascinated at that bit where you take the leap because you're leaving, you know, Laura Ashley is such a recognised brand and starting up on your own and now sitting here

these decades later you can see that the proof is in the pudding but at that time was there like an overlap were you starting to sort of do you have a plan B or was it just like a kind of I'm just going to go for broke and I will make this work. I am a bit of a gamble. by sort of my personality and I just thought I'm going to roll the dice um so I did leave law ashley first it took me a wee while to set the whole thing up because I had to find the shop the concept was brewing for quite a while before so I knew what I wanted the look and feel of the business to be and yeah with the help of my dad and my mum who were amazing in the beginning just absolutely amazing in fact my dad always said to me and

this is something that stuck with me to this day and it's so true for any entrepreneur in terms of the way your business is working is turnover is vanity and profit is sanity and if you remember that adage you will always make sure that your bottom line is looking healthy and the rest of it is sort of a relevant turnover is important what does turnover mean in business so the actual turnover of the the money that's coming into the business So the money that's coming into the business is one thing. Then all your expenses like staff obviously had the shop expense then, all those kind of expenses, rates to the council,

which are all part of the expense line. So it's just sort of, you know, it's literally just working out. We're actually left with. I think musicians quite often don't learn this lesson about a while as well. Everything's fine. It just got paid. Yeah, yeah. It's honestly, it's one of those things that you can get carried away. It's like, oh, I'm making all this money.

but I'm not making all that money because I've got to pay all that money out and that's what I'm left with and that's your net profit and that's your that's your staple to make sure that going forward you've got a credible business. Yeah. And you're always quite good at being, I mean obviously I'm projecting my own emotions here a little bit but I can get a bit squeamish sometimes about money because it's such an emotional thing. Yeah, particularly when you're responsible for a small person. Yeah, yeah. I mean I suppose that must have really galvanised your ambition a bit because you think I, there's a lot resting on this. So exactly right. And I think in my head, once I sort of got around how this was

going to work practically, I knew I could make it work and I knew I wanted to give Finn and I choices for the future. That was such an important part for me that it would potentially, if I put everything into this, it would give us some choices, which was really important because I would have been quite an absent mum if I'd stayed in the fashion world because it's so demanding. And you certainly couldn't work part-time then. There was no way. You were in it or you were out of it. So it was important that I was there to thin because he was, you know, a little boy two and a half and he did really need his mom he had an absent father quite suddenly yeah so he really needed me around and my family weren't in london there were up north that said they were

amazing came backwards and forwards and they were really supportive but not many of my friends at that time also had kids i was one of the first ones which was also a bit weird because i was suddenly a whole new friendship group of people that I didn't really know very well. Yeah. You know, they didn't have history with me. Yeah. So, and that's a learning curve when you're a new mom, because you've suddenly got to go, oh, I've now got to go on with this whole new group of people.

Yeah. That don't, that don't really know me. Yeah. And initially, all you've got in common is you happen to have kids the same age. Yeah, exactly. And I can really resonate with that. But I think also, I think sometimes you look back on a chapter of your life and there's a sort of it's not I don't know if it's bravery exactly but it's like a sort of blissful naivety about things

because now you're sitting here and your family has doubled inside since then but at that time it's a big deal I think to be in a city that's not where you've got your roots to find yourself a single parent and to be making a start with business like that do you remember if you had a sort of plan B or a kind of if it hasn't worked by then or was it just a kind of one foot in front of the other? I think actually it was one foot in front of the other. I just sort of what was going sort of down this road of like this just has to work,

which sounds a bit naive because it could have very easily not worked. I don't think it sounds naive. I just think it's like a thing, we've all got ways of framing things to help us keep focused. Yeah, and I think it's really important. And there was times when I felt really, vulnerable just around where Finn was being brought up. You know, where I'm leaving Kensal Green now is super gentrified, it's fabulous.

And it wasn't in the same area the whole time. Yes. And he, you know, he went to school literally next to where we live. My daughter is just about to leave that same school. So, but it wasn't quite the area it is now. And I did have worries around that. And I had this fixation about the duck pond in Barnes. And I thought, I just want to move to.

barns because it feels and I couldn't have afforded to live in barns but I used to go there and sort of walk around that duck pond with him and think this is really safe I really want to live here because nothing can touch him here but as it's turned out he's it's thrived where we live he still lives at home he's got the same friends he's had since he was four years old and it's a lovely community so it's actually worked out pretty well actually yeah and I think also you must feel like now, again, with the benefit of sitting here 20, over 20 years on, quite stealthy really, because a lot of businesses might be more sort of shouty, but actually to keep doing what you're doing and to grow a business like you have is a massive achievement.

Yeah. Well, we've had some ups and downs, massive ups and downs on the road and our house has been on the line and, you know, all sorts of stuff that I could write about that. we can't legally talk about here, but it's just around all the kind of the journey of trying to make something work and what you need to do in any business is try lots of different business models because there's no one size fits all. You know, we've tried lots of things like selling to smaller shops, which is tricky to manage and you've just got to find that that thing that fits your business because I made a big mistake in 2008 and opened a second shopping kensel rise just as the crash happened so that was tricky and then and the other thing that

happened with the original shop down in in portobello road is they brought in the congestion charge so all the people used to come in stop coming in because they had to pay the congestion charge every time they came into the area so that was quite a challenging time and once you sign a shop lease you are in the lease for however many years that is. So you do have to, you know, you do have to make mistakes in order to grow. But we've got a nice, steady business in terms of we've got some great retailers in the UK. Like we're, you know, we're a proud stockist in John Lewis, which is an amazing partner for us because it's got that lovely connotation. I was going to say it's a gold standard, isn't that?

Totally. So that's amazing. And obviously the website, the transactional website, I've got a really great team around me now that really help with gel and work together really well. And that in itself is, you know, a challenge. You've got to sort of, it's always the book stops with you and the momentum and the energy has got to keep going from you. Yeah. There's nobody else. Well, actually, there is my sort of second in command, see her.

It's just fabulous. She's just become a mom eight months ago to a little boy, Monroe. So she's sort of back part-time. But you've just got to have all these layers in place to make the whole thing work. It's not entirely dissimilar in my business, in terms of like the momentum starts with me. And if I said tomorrow, I'm not going to do anything else,

people might be like, oh, but then they'd move on to something else. You know, okay, fair enough. Yeah, well, exactly. I mean, if we start designing pajamas, like, well, I can go buy my charms from somewhere else. So, you know, it's coming up. the ideas it's coming up with like you all the other stuff you've got to do to promote everything that you do we've got a similar thing to do and um digital marketing has become

such kind of black art i would call it you know in terms of getting your product out there um instagram slightly different because that's more organic marketing and that's you know that's sort of easier to control but the paid side with all small brands like myself is a bit of a minefield but if you've got a gorgeous product you've got to get in front of people so they know you've got a gorgeous product like if you've got a gorgeous song you've got to get in front of people yeah you've got a gorgeous song yeah there's a lot of banging on saucepins it has to happen yeah constantly yeah exactly and I mentioned that your family has doubled since those early days and I think before we started recording you said you met your

your husband Charlie came into you and Finn's life and he was about four is that about four. So the first of really significant shift in your family setup. And it had been Finn and I for sort of two years on our own. And actually I'd become quite sort of, I isolated myself a little bit in that time just because, well, A, I was starting the business. And B, I was sort of conscious of him, his stability with everything. And so, so it was a nice time. But obviously, being a single parent is really challenging and having a new business and a little one it was two and a half three when I sort of started it was also very challenging because that's he was a really good baby fin in terms of I could get him to sleep and he did all the right things that babies

seem to do and then he hit three and became quite a challenging little man um he's yeah so so there was all of that and there was no three baby. Basically. Yeah, just three, yeah. And then waking up at five o'clock in the morning constantly, which became my kind of routine of, so yeah, so I met Charlie, my now husband, and he adopted Finn a few years down the line, but they sort of gelled straight away, thankfully. And in fact, it's that awkward stage of when you first meet someone and you've been going out for a wee while and you think, is he my boyfriend now? Or it's a bit awkward. I don't know whether he is or not. So we were walking to the park and Finn was sort of in the middle of his holding our hands. He went, so are you now boyfriend and girlfriend with me? And it broke the eyes. It was like, oh, I suppose we are really.

So that was quite nice. He introduced that concept to Charlie and I, which was lovely. So, yeah, so the years have gone on, they are really close. But Finn is now a cameraman like his dad, which is wonderful. So he's being brought up around, you know, filming and sort of all that side of the business. So I'm really glad he's fallen into it and he's, you know, he's enjoying it as well, which is great. Well, also, he won't even remember when he's stepdad into the picture, really. He won't.

It's, yeah. Does he just call him dad? He calls him Charlie. He calls him Charlie. He calls him Charlie. Yeah. So he did, he wanted to call him Charlie actually. But what's really?

weird is just like physically they are really similar because they're both incredibly tall. Yeah. So his birth dad wasn't so tall. Charlie's about six foot for and so he's Finn. Yeah. Clever genetics. Yeah, it's really known how to bend. Yeah. It's so, yeah, exactly. It's so strange. And lots of people are shocked when they find out they're not sort of related by blood, but honestly, there's so many mixed families now. And I think families come in all shapes and sizes. And completed our family in 2018, with our daughter, Maggie, who's now 11. So she was adopted through a charity called Coram.

Well, why don't we first want to talk about Coram? Because I find Corum is such a fascinating charity. I think it must be one of the oldest charities that I'm familiar with. It's the oldest charity in the UK. Oh, wow. Yeah, I didn't actually know that. Yeah, it's founded by Thomas Corum in the 1750s, and what was really amazing about this at the time when he was raising money for the founding hospital, Handel did concerts,

and he was, I can never say that word, I'm triple-on-lop-lissed, raise money, I'm going to say, for Thomas Corum and his founding hospital, and it's still on the same site in Corum Fields in Bloomsbury in Brunswick Square in central London and the same site was all those years ago and there's an amazing museum next to the Quorum offices the founding museum and what mums used to do then

if they couldn't look after their children they'd take them to the founding hospital with a token like a button they'd break in half and they'd keep one and give the other one to the child if they were ever able to get them back able to afford to feed them and so yeah it's a really emotive experience going around the found links museum they have these buttons they do they actually have all these little tokens yeah and all that love when you've got nothing but there's just something that says i'm thinking of you

exactly oh no yeah i know it's really that's an extraordinary emotional but you know as you know now modern social services is slightly different and lots of these children are faced with adversity, often of the same kind, actually. And it's just heartbreaking because there's still sort of, I think, 90,000 kids in this country that are still in care, they just need their forever home. And there's just a lack of adopters because the process is quite long-winded, quite rightly so. Yes.

I don't think that can be ever criticised because you, you have. have to be vetted. And they can't get it wrong. No, they absolutely can't. So it's an invasive process, but, you know, we went through it with the eyes on the prize. We had a journey with fertility ourselves and unfortunately never managed to get pregnant. So that's why we came to adoption. But we came to adoption through Maggie's godfather, our dear friend, Ben, who has got a wonderful daughter, Bella. And, you has got a wonderful daughter Bella, who was adopted also through Coram many years before. So he guided us through the process and that was lovely having that personal connection. Yeah. That must have been a massive difference

actually. Yeah, it really did. Almost mentoring you. Absolutely. He was amazing. So we weren't going through it cold in terms of we had some advice away from the advice of the social workers. So it is, you know, like I said, the process is quite long-winded, but really enjoyable as well. It was you find a lot about yourself doing these kind of processes and then you finally get to the end of the process and you go in front of a panel and get approved to adopt, which is one of the most scariest things ever because at that stage you kind of know you're there, but you don't. don't know the final outcome. It was really nerve-wracking. Wow. So you just like one minute sat in the lobby waiting to be called in and then they sit in front of these people. Yeah, you're in a panel. Well, there's all these, all that, like you're around a table of, you know, doctors and all sorts of people that have to make the final decision on this board. Then you ask to leave the room

and, but at that stage, like I said, the social worker knows she's got you to the point that you will get through. So we, We got through and that was all fine. And then everything goes a bit quiet because you're like, oh, so now I'm adopted. This child, you know, you have to then wait for the child that you matched with. So at that point, yeah, there's no question. No. And who's doing the matching?

So it's on a database and the social workers match you with, because Coram isn't a local authority. You match with children anywhere in the country. So it could be anywhere in the country, which is. better in lots of ways because it spreads the net a bit wider as opposed to. So I think it was a couple of months went by. Oh, a long time. Yeah, no, because it's not, you know, it just happens to be when that child is right for you. So that was a weird time because it was a bit in limbo.

Yeah. And you're thinking somewhere out there. Yeah. They're already here. Yeah. They exist. Yeah. They are there somewhere.

It's giving me chills. Yeah, no. It's a weird. It's very weird. And then we have actually got matched with our daughter, which was amazing. And that process then starts all over again because we met her social work that came to our house. And she had to meet us and make sure that she thought we were the right family as well. So that's another process that's quite long.

And then you have to go to another panel to make sure that you're matched, you know, that the match, they agree with the match in the end. So, things can still potentially pivot. It could. Your heart's on the line for absolutely on the line. Because you were already so invested in that, you know, we were invested in that little girl. So I cannot. So when my stepmom and dad adopted my sister, the adoption process in terms of that sort of, I don't know, for a phrase vetting period.

Yeah. So about two years. Yeah. Interviews and paperwork. That was the same with us. Same. Yeah. It's, it can be less and it can be a lot more, but it's, but it's not normally much more than that.

I think it's about about two years. But, but the, the most real bit was when you are, when all of that's done, you go through what's called introductions, which I don't know whether you may have remembered that. So we, you go through the introductions, which has to be in the town therefrom. So we virtually kind of camped out in this city for two weeks and went backwards and forwards to see her in her foster home but the most surreal moment is the moment that you knock on the door knowing you're going to meet your daughter.

I was going to say, what's that emotion like? It's so strange and we were so nervous. There was this door and behind it was our little girl and that's the first time you meet her. there's no, because lots of people found that really, you know, our friends found that really surreal. It's just like, so that's the first time you met her. It's like, we're not going to meet her and then we go, oh, well, she's not quite right. So, you know, children can't go through that. You have to meet them for the first time in this way. And all adopters will relate to

this. Yeah. That is the most surreal moment ever. Yeah. So we knocked on this door and, and there she was. Wow. Yeah. I mean, I suppose I don't find it quite as, look, whenever you meet your small person and however you find yourself getting to parenthood, there's always a moment where you kind of meet this individual. Yeah, totally.

Yeah. And all, in a way, the, I don't think there's any other version of it in some ways because all those preconceived notions of, of what your child will be like that you you know if you if you're a kid who's dreaming of like when i'm when i'm a parent or as you're getting older and thinking yeah no maybe now's the time right or even if you're carrying your baby you've got all the expectation and then suddenly they're there and you're like oh pop all those other little full bubbles just pop and suddenly it's like it was only ever going to be you yeah so i can relate on that level but i suppose what is

extraordinary is the how profound it is to meet someone that is formed in that way and it be in such a visceral, literal, physical sense, a doorbell, a door opening, little footsteps. And all the doctors, obviously, they have the same experience. And then over those two weeks, we got to know her by gradual meetings. But it was so interesting. In the first few days, we took her into a part where there was one of the little merry-go rounds. And so she was only just four at the time. and she got on a little horse going on the merry go around

and my husband and she didn't want us to go on and he was stood at the side and we videoed her and he kept saying to me she wants you to go on with you she's upset she's upset and I was getting really worried that oh she's she's on her own and she was going around and a little face was like this down sort of looking down in the dumps and she was winding us up she was actually and she went around and she started giggling

because she could see so she's got she's quite a sparky little character And you kind of, I saw that straight, I thought, yeah, you're a sparky one. So her character was forming in those two weeks. Obviously, we were getting to know a little formed four-year-old as well, which is challenging. There's no easy way to say, oh, it was all, you know, unicorns and rainbows, because it certainly wasn't. No, and I guess you're second guessing everything as well. Everything, making sure. micro expression every moment.

Very much so. Because you've got to show this little one who's experienced things that a lot of grown-ups would find difficult to go through, not least transient, change. For most childhoods, big change is a huge moment and we don't know when we're going to first experience that experience of change.

So for a little one that you know they've already had to see now this is your bedroom and now this is your bedroom and you have to show consistency and and try and form boundaries and parents within also showing that you're going to show up for them and everything's going to be okay it's incredibly massive navigation incredibly difficult but you do she came from an amazing foster family and this woman It's still a dear friend of us to this day. She's a warm, fabulous person and she gave Maggie a really good start in life, which we're eternally grateful for, actually.

And lots of little routines, like she had to have certain things by the side of a bed, like she had a little fairy glass ornament that she always had by the side of a bed, always a glass of water. her. So when she first came into her new bedroom, which we spent ages decorating and it looked gorgeous and, you know, everything that she wanted in the room was there. She wanted a ginger cat, not a live ginger cat, ginger cat's little toy. There was certain things that she wanted in a room that she'd said, or when I have my new bedroom, can I have a furry rug, a ginger cat toy? So everything was in place. But we put her to bed on the first night. And she had,

had descends to turn to a bedside table and she counted all the things that were normally there. It's so, yeah, it's really moving. I'm thinking as well, I mean, my youngest is six. I'm picturing him, you know, a couple of years back if he was embarking on this journey. And obviously there's things that a four-year-old would comprehend. And then there's big things that we would see that he doesn't see. And I think that's why it's so moving as well, because you've got their innocence interwoven with such a life-changing thing. And also, you know, you're holding on to the fact that she's been through a lovely foster experience, that she's come into a loving home, that she has the two of you, her amazing big brother.

There's this whole cast of people waiting to greet her and support her. But she, in amongst it all, has got to discover this. And she still take as long as she needs. She still is. Of course. She's 11. But yeah, and that's challenging for the family because she was still. So she mourned her foster mum for a long time because of course she did.

That was her stability. And, you know, over the time you just start to break the barriers down with a lot of help from post-adoption support from the core room. You're not just thrown into it that. It's a long time. There's infinitely a lot of post-adoption support and that's absolutely invaluable and all the courses we've been able to access which we still look at now. You know, As she's coming into all these different stages of life. We've got to make sure that the support is there for that. But, you know, you have moments that you remember.

I remember one particular really difficult weekend and where everybody's at the end of the tethers. and I just crawled on the floor and went into the fetal position because I was just at the end of my tether and it broke down the first barrier with her and I because she came over and gave me a hug which I wasn't doing it for that effect I was really because I was absolutely on my knees and actually one of the things

that lots of children that come into care find hard when they're in their forever home is um is kind of adapting to a new family and having those connections because they feel if they have that connection it might get taken away from them again so they're obviously very wary of that so but with maggie as time has gone on she's she's got the connections with us for sure and she says the most wonderful things you know sometimes obviously like all children she's not she's not an angel all the time but those moments where she says those things are so heartfelt um they they really are

heartfelt and you know all those years back i never thought we'd be we'd have such a close connection with her so it's it's worth the purse perseverance and it's worth all the help you can get if you're thinking about becoming an adopter it's it's an amazing thing to do it's an amazing thing to do Yeah, and also I think to go into something with such, it's sort of quite a sober route, isn't it, to parenthood? Because you're thinking every step of the way you are being asked point blank, how will your life fit this? How will you deal with that?

If this comes up, what will happen? Yeah. It's not an easy route at all. It's not an easy route at all because, you know, that there is lots of things with children that, well, I suppose like, you know, birth children as well, but obviously with these kids, they've come from a background that's potentially going to have damaged them, sort of, and you don't know how that's going to show itself in years to come. You just, it's, but, you know, our attitude is access as much support as you can, listen to her. the most amazing thing

and I can't profess to have done this but my husband does it religiously every night with Maggie he's away at the moment and he's ringing her if he can fit it in with his schedule of work ringing her every night and it's questions what are your questions for today

and more comes out in those 10 minutes than probably a lot of therapy would if I'm honest her, what are your questions for today? And she might have anything on her mind. Yeah, it could be anything. Oh, it could be nothing. Yeah.

It could be something like, oh, you know, so-and-so did that at school today. Or it could be a really, really deep thing that's really important to her. So she knows in that, you know, that time when she's going to bed, she can use that to ask any questions that she wants. And I wish to have them that with Finn, actually, because it's just so valuable. it's so valuable and she Charlie's away just for a few days

and she's she's really missed it but she's been she knows she's been able to access it you know he rang her last night to say I've got some free time

any questions and actually she didn't have any because she was so tired because it was so hot in London yesterday she didn't know when you're installing our conditioning yeah it was she was at absolutely shattered. So, but it's lovely to, yeah, it's a lovely moment for her and the dad to have

that. And it's sort of judgment-free communication as well, isn't it? Yeah, totally. What's been on your mind. Yeah. And how was it for you, um, navigating your motherhood with the two of them? Because obviously there's another child in this equation too. Yeah. So he must have been teenager at this point. He was 17, 18. Yeah. 17. So that is a strange dynamic, as you know as well. It's a sort of balancing of

those different ages and he was absolutely desperate for a sibling. And he adores Maggie. They've got a lovely special thing, isn't it? Yeah. He's a they've got a lovely relationship. So I think the sort of on the kind of

side of when I'm trying to discipline Maggie and saying things right, if you don't do that, there'll be no sweets for at least the next two days. And Finn will say to her, she used to say that to me, she'll never carry it out. So on that side, yeah, that side is tricky. And I keep, you know, well, you're not really meant to say that, Finn. So there's, there's times that has been challenging because sometimes when she's not quite self-regulating herself, he's found that really hard. and what the social workers also said is because you know you and fin have got this really close bond if this little person comes into your family and it's clearly affecting your mum mentally

sometimes with the doctors it's physically Finn would have found that really hard and sometimes I think he did so because he was older and he was you know he could see yeah it didn't he could see why she was doing it but he wasn't quite equipped enough to understand totally why she was doing these things. Yeah. But they've, yeah, they've got, they've got a lovely relationship and in fact, when he turned 18, he said, he started talking about wanting a tattoo and I was like, well, I don't really know if I want you to have a two, you're 18, it's up to you. And then he told me what he wanted his tattoo to be. And it was the day she moved in with us on his wrist. So yeah, I was like, Yep. Where's the, I'll pay for that. Where's the tattoo? So that, that was lovely. Yeah. So

that's amazing. Oh, that we nearly got the date wrong. His own girlfriend actually, as there were, yeah, he needed got the year wrong. Oh, no. So that would have been a shame. But what a thoughtful thing. Yeah. So he's, he's, he's a lovely, um, thoughtful young, young man he's Finn. And I think it's really enriched him having Maggie in his life. And it's funny. Lots of people, at the time because the other thing about being an adopter is when you arrive with this little person in your community of which ours is quite a tight knit one people couldn't work out at first who she was because she suddenly arrived and that's you know the social workers also said to us just say this is our adopted daughter maggie you know don't hide behind it that's

exactly what she is and that is an odd concept and lots of people used to say to us oh isn't she lucky isn't she lucky and i used to want to say i think i think we're the lucky ones but people don't know how to react as well it's a strange concept for them people that know this for a long time um the intention behind that is good absolutely because they're saying the intention is she's really come to a lovely loving environment but she's hearing it and thinking yes that so i used to sort of slightly talk over them if people said that um but she's she's fitted into our community incredibly well and she's yeah she's absolutely thriving yeah and i mean it's it's just an incredible thing as well of what family can be yeah you know um but you sort of know when you

found it it's like it's really beautiful it's beautiful and you know things you know finn because of what happened in his early life had this abandonment um issue which hasn't manifested itself particularly but Maggie's got that. So they do have, weirdly, in different ways, similar issues that they've had to overcome. Well, I was thinking that. You've had to be incredibly consistent and show up every day for them.

But are you also careful to give yourself space because it can be hard holding onto the reins all the time? Yeah. Look, that is parenthood, isn't it? Once you're in it, that's it. But particularly if you've had times when you're on your own or if you're navigating a path that is slightly different to maybe your friends' experiences,

sometimes that can feel quite lonely, I'd imagine. Yeah, very isolating. And actually, work has been a good backdrop for me in terms of losing myself in it. I'm so grateful for that. And I really love what I do, still love what I do after 20 odd two years, I think, or longer now, I can't even think now. It's been a long time.

So I really enjoy that. And I do try and look after myself practically with yoga and all that kind of good stuff. You know, that's really important. That's a really important part of any parenthood journey just to make sure that you're, you know, you're in a good state, sort of mentally and physically, as much as you can be. Yeah, and I guess, thank you, Berfer. perspective, there's a lovely sense I'm getting from you of someone who really knows themselves because you, by starting out your business as you did and curating as you have

and it being, you know, you and your son and then expanding your family, you've actually got something that's completely like personal to you. And I think when you are the master of your destiny in that regard, you kind of can keep a preservation of like it sort of stops you from, I don't know, comparison, because you're kind of doing things the way that work for you. And I think that's something that in the long run really stands, Sandy Goodstead, if you've got that in your soul, actually. I mean, it is lovely. We're a very family one business. My son, Finn does all of the videos for the shoots.

My niece, Tabitha, is an amazing makeup artist. In fact, if she could see my makeup now, she'd be stressed out because I can't put makeup on, saved my life but she she's a makeup artist um my husband charlie's also a cameraman so it's really lovely a lot of creatives a lot of creatives and yeah so that that works and it does feel quite you know i feel incredibly lucky that we're able to do that and involve all these sort of family members as well it's it's a massive blessing for me is that and and also maggie can see those dynamics and she's that gives her another sense of family within the business yeah but she's you know she's models for us quite a lot of the time because she's she enjoys that so so i think

that's been that's been another um sort of security blanket for her as well yeah and she's really she's really proud of the business is maggie she's really proud of it which she's which is lovely. I mean, she does get annoyed when I'm on emails and sometimes not quite present with her. So I'm conscious that I have a cut of time if I can at night. That's quite hard sometimes isn't it? It's really hard. Because the phone

represents your little office such a lot of times. It does. So, unless she's getting older, she's starting to make comments about that and I am quite conscious of coming into secondary school. You know, that said, I do keep saying to a, well, you know, we do need to sort of live and put

food on the table, ma'am. So it's it's a balance of both yeah and you're modeling a lot of you know being getting on with things yeah exactly um we should also give a shout out to the fundraising that thenibs has done for quorum because you've had a lot of your nightwear that's also fundraiser and am i right it's for a specific sort of mindfulness for parents course so so we donate um to quorum for this particular course which in that charlie and i didn't actually go on but i wished it'd been around when we were going through our post-adoption training because it's, you are navigating all these incredible obstacles

and a mindfulness course just helps new adopters. So it's great fundraising. First of all, it's even better donating to a charity when it's a meaningful thing at the end of it. And, yeah, I'm really proud to be, you know, part of quorum still. It was such a big part of our lives for so many years. and I take Maggie back there quite a lot. There's a, they do a yearly picnic for kids who go back year after year

that have been adopted through callum. I love that because then she'll always have a place she can associate. Yes, exactly. And the community she's part of that as well. She really, I think she's getting older, she wants to disassociate herself a little bit because she wants to be known as much. Maggie, not that little girl who's adopted, but she'll come back to that.

And if she doesn't, it's fine. Yeah, and also she might meet someone who has got a similar story, and then it becomes like, oh, because sometimes if you're the own, you know, you don't want to be the one. The only one. It's such a desire to fit in, particularly when you get into double figures. Yeah, you're all about. That's been quite apparent. As she came into double figures, it was, she didn't, she just doesn't want to talk about it,

and that's fine. That's also fine. So, yeah, we've got this lovely expression for Mags, and she still likes being called this. And I've called her it since she was very little. So we call her our warrior because she is one. Yeah, but so are you guys as well. And you've really had to, you know, completely give yourself over to. it's quite a profound thing

I mean it's profound becoming a parent in any which way but I think when you've made such a conscious decision to do this and engage in it and because of the nature of quorum it leaves you porous to all these other stories so you're not just thinking about

your family you're thinking about all these kids and all these families in a way that's very much so it was never part of the peripheral vision before it was never in your psyche before there were just as many children and be not thinking about it in the same way.

That is very true. So it changes you in every way forever. You're much more aware, much more aware of it and much more aware of the challenges that these social workers have. I mean, it's an absolute mind field. But I think Quorum are so important because they are, you know, they are trying to do this work within adoption, but also all this post-adoption work,

which requires a huge amount of funding. I mean, it's purely a charity. They don't have, it's, they base everything that they run on charitable donations. So, which is, which is why, you know, I'm a very small part of it, but I'm still extremely proud that we can give back to something that's given us so much as a family. Yeah. And if there's someone listening who's thinking about embarking on this,

is there something that you, think it would have been helpful to know at the beginning that you learnt on your way? I think to think about this. Well, I suppose you had your friend, the godfather. Yes. Who helped you a little bit with mentoring

in terms of what to expect. But I'd imagine, I'm trying to think how I would feel if I was going through a similar process because on the one hand, there'd be part of me that would almost find it quite reassuring that this whole panel had decided it's okay, you are able to do this.

But I think there's always moments when you find yourself responsible for kids and you think, am I like any good at this? Can I do this? Only you do doubt yourself. Yeah. I think I would have those days. I'm sure I'd be in the fetal position. Yeah.

I mean, that's been already. That's again. That fetal position was quite a profound moment of, I suppose, actually, that was quite a profound moment of like, oh my good, but then some chinks of light start to come through and it's you know being I suppose being an adopted parent you've got to be selfless because you've got to accept you might not get very much back but you know if you work at that you definitely do I think that's a brilliant bit of advice actually because I think that's something to cling on to and if you go into it with that in your head

and it might be a bit of a corny question but can you remember after ringing on the doorbell to meet your daughter the first moment you thought this has all been worth it so I think when she

when she it was about the time of Halloween actually and she waddled into the little sort of playroom, back room of where she was living with a little box, a little sort of like Halloween thing of sweets

and just offered it to us and opened up her arms and said, mommy and daddy straight away, which was nothing that we were expecting. I thought we'd have to earn that, which felt, I mean, it nearly knocked me off my feet, but she was so desperate for her forever home. And she'd met us over video, sorry, I would caveat that, not talking to her other video but she'd been shown videos of Charlie and I and the house

and the bedroom she'd sleep in and her border terrier who's our pet dog and her big brother so she'd literally been given a tour of the house so she knew what we looked like but obviously to a four-year-old that's quite abstract as well it's just like you know and and her lovely foster mom showed her that video quite a few times she was very um sort of used to seeing the house and seeing us. There was a lot of funny outtakes when we made that video, actually, which I must find someday. And she'd seen Charlie read the tiger that came to tea, which was her favorite book at

the time. So it was, but I just wasn't expecting that moment. It was just like, oh my goodness, this, I think this is going to work. And another corny thing. And I keep reminding her of this as well. So when we left her foster family's home with all of her stuff in the back of our car, and it was literally crammed full of, imagine the stuff that a four-year-old little girl has, the toys and dolls and everything else.

And as we drove away, a rainbow, this sounds really cool. There was a rainbow that I could see at the corner of my eye. And I always say that to Max every time I see a rainbow. Do you remember, that's your rainbow? Oh, I love that. Yeah. So I think you've got to be a bit corny as an adopter because you've got to fill in these gaps that they just didn't have.

They just didn't have. So, yeah, it's a bit of cornyness goes a long way, you know, being a birth parent, it goes an awful long way being an adopted parent because it just means so much to them. And she might go, oh, don't be silly, mummy. But I know her face and I know. Well, that actually means quite a lot to you. Yeah.

Yeah. And those are anchors as well. And I think, you know, there's the early years, you don't have that shared memory. So once you begin to build those shared memories. Yeah. Do you remember this? Do you remember that moment? And that's wonderful.

That's what we carry as adults, isn't it? And we think back to things. So being able to have that shared experience, shared memory. Well, it's all that thing at Christmas, when you start your Christmas traditions and are now really embedded in our family. And she, because the first Christmas she was with us, we were expecting her to be up at four in the morning like Finn always was. And, of course, she wasn't used to that. So Finn had gone out to the pub before, came back early in preparation for this like four o'clock, her rushing in. But of course, you know, that wasn't what she was experiencing in a foster family.

So 8 o'clock, we were like, well, where is she? I can wake her now. But actually, having said that last few years, she does get up at a football park now. So that has changed. Well, I really hope that there's a pajama print with rainbows and ginger cats. That will be a lovely pajama print. In fact, one print we would love to do, and this was an idea of one of the lovely girls that works with us, Phoebe, in the office. And I think it's a great idea to do a print of the tokens that were for a little, yeah, I thought that was a really, I can't.

own that. That's Phoebe's idea. That is lovely. Yeah, that would be a nice idea for a kid's print. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because we're just so proud of that association and... It also plays tribute to all those little stories. It absolutely does. All those babies. Yeah, totally.

That's a nice thing too, to acknowledge those stories as well. Well, I do think what you're, what you've built is incredible, actually. I do. I'm really grateful you've shared your story with me. Oh, no, it's been a pleasure. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you.

It's been lovely. Thank you. Well, here's to your family. Thank you, Sophie. And pajamas. And pajamas. Yes, here's your family and pajamas. What a toast. And actually talking about Christmas.

She's talking about, you know, Maggie waking at Christmas. It's just making me feel a bit Christmassy. Listen, I want to thank Fiona so much. She shares her story so beautifully. and I found it incredibly moving and lovely. And I know there are so many families out there where there's so many ways to become a family. And it's lovely to have Fiona share her story.

But also, it just speaks to a part of me, actually, the idea of, I don't know, how would I phrase it, the families that can come together in that way, and then it just feels like it was always meant to be. I'm going to keep this brief because I'm now on the plane and there's this horrible tone which I'm sure sounds ghastly in your ears

so I just want to say thank you so much to Fiona Bell thank you to Claire for being an excellent producer thank you to Richard for editing it even while we've been on tour thank you darling shout out to LMA

he'll be back soon with the artwork and of course mostly to you thank you for lending me your ears we have two more guests and then it'll be time for me to start a bit together next series and keep your suggestions coming. Also, I had a little look the other day on

where you can get your podcasts on Apple and I saw some lovely reviews and it's so nice for my morale. So if you can be bothered to write something on there, I will see it. I appreciate it. And I think it's quite a nice thing because when I look at podcasts,

I sometimes look at those before I choose if I'm going to listen. So if you like it, don't hide. You're like under a bushel because it's all good. and also, you know, this is like my passion project, basically. Anyway, enough of that. I will be landing in Toronto soon.

Sorry about that horrible noise. Lots of love. See you next week. Take care. Thank you.