Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 169: Jacinda Ardern

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

Dame Jacinda Ardern is the former prime minister of New Zealand, who was elected in 2017 and in post for 6 years.In 2018 she became the second elected World leader to ever give birth. Her partner Clarke (often referred to as 'first bloke'!) frequently took on the role of stay-at-home dad. Together they took baby Neve with them to many important meetings, including the UN summit in New York in 2018, while she was still breastfeeding. Jacinda told me she felt she needed to prove she could lead the country despite being a mother... and also show the world she was a mother, in order to be a positive role model. Jacinda and I talked about the fascinating and intimate documentary ‘Prime Minister’ which will have its UK release on December 5th, in which we get to see behind the scenes both in government, and at home through videos shot by Clarke. It really brings a humanity to the role of leadership and this insight makes Jacinda’s style of leadership all the more impressive, modern and inspirational. Jacinda really wanted to reiterate that she was lucky enough to have support, that she never did anything alone, and that we should not expect women to do everything on their own: ‘Yes, we can be wonder woman… but even wonder woman deserves a sidekick.’ She now still remains dedicated to helping encourage leaders to highlight their humantity by teaching empathetic leadership. Special shoutout to her gorgeous children’s book, Mum’s Busy Work. It’s so sweet to see a lovely picture book for young kids where the mum works hard, yes, but it doesn’t mean she’s any less dedicated to motherhood. Cheers to that! XSpinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lusbexter and welcome to spinning plates, the podcast where I speak to to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons, age 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how to be. other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates. Hey, I'm back in London town. How nice. I'm speaking to you from home. I had such a glorious tour, but I can't lie, I'm so happy to be back and I've been

doing lots of like, you know, organizing drawers and cupboards and I went through all of my kids' books the other day since I got back on Thursday just to kind of have that nice grounding feeling of being back in the house. It was such a good trip though. So since I recorded today's guest, which I did the week leading up to leaving to go to the States, I've been to L.A., San Francisco, Vancouver, Mexico City, Toronto and New York. And it's been absolutely glorious. But I'm just saying it out loud actually makes me feel a bit tired. And I got back on Thursday morning. We landed at like six in the morning, so I got back in time to the school around, which is pretty cute. And I've just flung myself back into UK timings, UK routine,

I've put whatever time with the kids for school, that kind of stuff. Got slightly thrown out of whack yesterday, though, because we had a really nice day celebrating my fourth born's 10th birthday, and yes, that does mean I do need to update the little voiceover at the top of this podcast. I promise I'll do it for the next series. I know I say I have five children aged between 16 months and 16 years. I don't. They're now between 6 and 21. So just a teeny bit out of date. But yeah, my fourthborn has just turned 10. So we were at trampoline park in the morning with him and his mates through to a fireworks little thing in our garden and sleepover last night. And then at about half 10, Richard and I got in the car and went to a gala for children with cancer UK where we put. performed with the rest of the band. Finished by about 12.30.

It was a really good atmosphere. Back home, kids still awake, of course, for their sleepover. And then I think I got up about 8.30, and I just feel... I feel really tired. But it's okay. I haven't actually got a gig for a few days. Today's a lovely day. It's really sunny.

And in a minute, we're off to Chinatown for some dimson with the rest of the family to continue celebrating Jesse's 10th birthday. Because I don't know about you guys, but in the Ellis side of things anyway we love a rolling birthday we can easily keep it going for two three four occasions to market it's it's quite good fun if you're into that kind of thing so today's guest so i have been wanting to speak to the guest today for years because as soon as i heard about jacinda adern the prime minister of new zealand she was elected in 2017 and then in 2018 became only the second woman in a position of power like that to give birth.

So I started the podcast in 2020 and I'm thinking, I want to speak to this lady. She surely is such a extraordinary example of what this podcast is about, how you compartmentalize and handle the demands of your work alongside being a mother and not just a mother, a first-time mother. I think that's what was extra significant to me, is just the idea of coming into all that new parenthood brings while you're also running a country. It's quite hard to imagine, although Jacinda Arden's documentary, which is just coming out, really helps to bring a reality to that situation for me and for other people who watch it because she lets you in on so much of what that would have felt like the

day to day. They've got this documentary compiles. So, Jacinda reflecting on her time in office. So this was between 2017 and 2023, but also with extraordinary amounts of footage. A lot of it shot by Clark, her partner, now her husband. They got married last year. And it's just really wonderful because it brings such insight, but also humanity. It really brings a humanity to this role. And I really hope that other leaders would consider such insight. Because no matter what you're dealing with, everybody's a human, everybody's got demands in their life. And I think that in politics, with everything the way it is in terms of, you know, the speed of information, but also are encouragement sometimes to inhabit

very strong, extreme views and then sort of pop them on the internet and share them and get involved in debate. I think bringing about people's real life experiences, how they handle things, ups and downs, the realities behind the politicians, I think it invites you to remember the people that are actually at the result of

they are feeling the ramifications of the decisions that get made, but also to have a sympathy, a bond with people in all these positions and what it comes with. I say this, aware that there's lots of different types of people that enter into politics. And for some people, that idea of appearing vulnerable or real actually doesn't really serve how they've chosen to rule. But for people like Jacinda Arden, it's so effective because you just think, wow, she just seems very decent all round, but also very real in terms of what she's dealing with, the stresses, the impact they have, you know, the tears she's shed over the difficult things

she's had to deal with. She had two horrific terrorist shootings and mosques in Trice Church in New Zealand really early on into her term. COVID, just lots of things to deal with. long as I'm not having this little girl. She's now seven, Neve, Clark and Jacinda's daughter, but just a tiny baby growing up and then being taken to the UN and Jacinda and trying to keep breastfeeding and all the things that are so resonate. It was fascinating. I'm going to listen back with you and I will do it like a slight bit of trepidation because I'm going to be

honest, I was feeling a little bit nervous and I'm not normally someone that really acknowledges my nerves. I don't find them very helpful. I don't mind the sort of nerves that mean focus. That's like different. But with this, I did feel a little bit out of my comfort zone because I went to interview Descinda in a hotel in central London and producer Claire and I were suitably keen and suitably early. So I think we were there a good, like half hour at least before the interview even, you know, even the hello started. And so we had plenty of time in this lovely hotel room just to sort of get a bit worked up about what we were hoping the conversation would go and all the billions of questions I had in my head. I'd also taken questions from other

people because I had all the things I wanted to ask her and all the insights, you know, everything I thought after watching the documentary and reading Descender's book as well and listening to her and other podcasts. This is how I do my research. But I also reached out to a few people. Some of them were connected with Jacinda Arden's work. So there's a woman called Lindsay Uttes, who I became chatty with on Instagram because she was one of the directors of the documentary film Prime Minister.

But I also, she had brilliant questions, by way. Thank you, Lindsay. And then weirdly, on the day that I was going to go and interview, Jacinda Arden, I went to get a coffee from my little coffee place in Chiswick, which is called Four Leaf. And Nile, who is the manager of the coffee place, he'd weirdly been to a party

the previous weekend in celebration and I think it was a charity fundraiser for theatre in the arts and he also does acting and his friend had invented Jacinda Arden and her husband Clark to the event

so he'd ended up chatting with her and he had some good questions for me as well how funny is that small world and all that so anyway what I'm trying to say is I had about I don't know 30 questions balanced on the tip of most top of my head ready to ask her So I think we covered everything I hope to

But if I seem a little bit, I don't know If I seem a bit nervous at the beginning, that's why I actually was I did say to her, you know, you're someone I wanted to speak to for so long And I just want to cover everything So thank you to her for her patience To her brilliant team for giving me the time with her I've really, really, really appreciated it And it was good chat, oh, I'm being called

Anyway, I've waffled on for long enough I'll see you on the other side I'm coming, Mickey I'm coming I really am coming and enjoy the interview I think I'm coming so I think

producer Claire and I'm a little bit you'll very pick up on I like excited energy because oh thank you I don't know how much you know about this podcast so this is podcast is called spinning plates

and I've been doing it now for nearly six years and the conversations are with working women who happen to be mothers and probably pretty much for all of those six years I have wanted to speak to you I got in touch with your amazing team probably a time when thinking back

the idea of doing my podcast was probably not top of the priorities I think it might be like 2021 or something I think you had a couple of things you were handling at the time but I think for me on the way here I was just thinking how much you embody

so many aspects you're like the ultimate guest for me. And I was thinking about that. I was thinking, well, is it because you're in leadership? I've been lucky enough. I spoke to Heller Thorning-Schmidt, so I've interviewed, you know, at the Danish PM. So that's amazing. And then I was like, well, there's that, yes.

But what else? I was thinking it's not just motherhood during a, you know, term of leadership or prime ministership. It's also because it's your first baby. Yes. And I think that carries so much resonance. And watching the documentary, I was blown away actually by how I understood so many emotions,

even though I've never first-hand experience what you've been through. And I wondered for you, you know, this is your baby daughter, this longed for a baby. You find out you're having a baby just before you get sworn in. This is an unexpected thing. There's, you know, no reluctance with the motherhood. The leadership may be a little bit more unexpected. So so many things happening at once.

And when you reflect and see the documentary, Does it help you process the enormity of all the things you were dealing with? It's a great question. And thank you, as you were describing the reasons you wanted to have a conversation. And when you're saying, why did you have that eagerness? I thought you were about to point out the difference was that everything turned to custard while I was also trying to be a mother. But you're right, being a first-time mother is, you know, there's something different there. isn't there? I have friends in my life who would their second talk about how they just got to

enjoy it a little bit more because there's so much extra that comes with the first time you enter into that new role. Watching the documentary and I've only watched it, that final version. I've seen a version I saw for the first time after it was submitted to a film festival, so the point of no return. And then the only other time I've seen it, the final version, which was quite different, was when it was screened at Sundance. So really, I've seen it really once. What with all the other people? Yeah, a big shared experience.

I watched it with everyone else. And watching it, I remember thinking two overwhelming thoughts. This is so accurate. This is exactly, you know, how do you condense five years down into 90 minutes? You do it like that. it was really accurate. The second thing I felt was it was as overwhelming to watch it as it felt at the time, and I don't think it feels any less overwhelming now.

So maybe that means I haven't fully processed it all, but the documentary certainly captures it. It really does. And I would say, I appreciate what you're saying about your friends with their second children, but I think, you know, look, my first baby, not me for six, everything's upside down. I had to kind of find my way back to feeling like myself again. And so much of that process is about finding your tribe around you, but also talking to other people, sharing stories and starting to sort of feel the edges

of what your version of motherhood looks like. And what's that, how is it to rudder yourself in that way when there aren't really any, there's no one else who's exactly done what you've done. And I guess in some sense that can be a good thing. Well, I was wondering if that does come with some positives, because there's There's no map. No one can say, hey, well, in this situation, this amount of maternity leave was taken and this is how much we saw the child. So there was, there was no real guide. There was Benazir Buto, but she was, you know, in a different generation of political leader.

Yeah. So there was, there was no map. So that was helpful. But on the flip side, I felt I felt these dueling pressures. On the one hand, if you're the only second person in the world to do something, you feel like you need to prove it can be done. That's very true. So I felt like I needed to prove I could be a competent prime minister first and foremost and that motherhood wouldn't get in the way of that, so to speak. But on the flip side, I felt pressure to show that I was a mother because, you know, there was some expectation in that regard as well, you know, to model motherhood and leadership. And so it didn't feel finally balanced some of the time. And yet for all of that, I think my take home from the

experience of being a first-time mother in the public eye was that it doesn't matter if you're leading a country, it doesn't matter if you're leading a company. Motherhood is such a shared experience and it's a great leveller. It's actually something that, as you say, you watched the film and thought, I can relate to that because it doesn't matter the role you have. You know, so many of us struggle with breastfeeding, we struggle with guilt, we struggle with sleep, we struggle with all of that, and my experience was no different. Well, that's exactly why I wanted to have these conversations, because I do love this idea of that which unites us rather than that which divides us.

So you can have insight and empathy and start to understand all the different challenges people have and the different things that inform us, but then also the bits which actually join up. Yes. And the comfort that comes with that. And I guess it's slightly juxtaposed to the way that a lot of things are handled these days with, you know, these very sort of binary responses to things, which I completely agree with you. I think at the root of all the worst aspects of not just politics, actually, but being nice, kind human beings to each other, actually. And in many ways, I agree with you, there is a lot of binary thinking.

And I think the ultimate foil to that is rehumanization. Absolutely. People are complex, the world is complex, and maybe we just need to be reminded of that in subtle ways again. And if, you know, opening the lid on life a little bit when you're in leadership as a way to do that, then I'm more than happy to. I know some people when they saw some of the footage said, oh, you were brave. And I thought, after I saw it, I thought, do they mean I was brave? Because, you know, there I am, no makeup. Half the time I feel like I'm in my pajamas for some reason.

and it's there for everyone to see, but that feels like a small price to pay if the end result is that little reminder of the fact there are humans in these jobs too. Well, I think that's where people find the bravery, because I suppose for a lot of roles, and this obviously goes big time for parenting, but for professional roles as well, we have an idea of what that looks like. Yes. You know, for example, with your books you've written, you might have thought, well, if I'm now an author, how do we have to present? What do authors do? How do we do this? And so we have an expectation of leadership as well. And traditionally, although we've had many female leaders,

I grew up in the Thatcher era in the UK, and that presentation of female leadership was very much to dial down feminine aspects. That was the way to, in fact, that was kind of celebrated, this Iron Lady, to dial all these things down. so I guess the bravery comes in this 360 version of yourself but also exploring that leadership can look like lots of different things and I suppose I did wonder if that's why I know sometimes you said about the idea of your leadership being reluctant and I thought to myself well I don't know if that's I don't think you are reluctant you didn't say no and you took it on and you finished you know you handed in your time and you were ready to leave so what is that really is that a way to differentiate

from this other form of leadership we see. We're familiar with these other tropes, the stereotypical. Yes. But it sets you apart. You've immediately said, I'm going to do things a little bit more like what I look like when I lead. Yeah, and I think, you know, the reluctance for me was in part, you know, an expression of imposter syndrome, really, in some ways.

I hesitated because, A, you know, I didn't necessarily think that I had what was required for the job. I mean, it's an incredibly difficult job. But part of that, one of the layers to that was that was when I looked at the job within the frame of what I'd seen. And what you previously, I thought you had to possess in order to survive or be seen as successful as a politician. And yet, my version of leadership was quite different to that. In many ways, being thrust into leadership without necessarily expecting it was a blessing because it meant there was very little time for anyone else to tell me to do it differently.

and it was an opportunity to test alternatives. And so I was a third female leader in my country. I didn't feel like gender was part of the critique for me and how lucky did that make me in many ways. So instead, I thought about breaking some other ceilings, you know, the idea that you can't be kind in politics, that there isn't a place for compassion, or that you can't be both of those things

and yet have a level of decisiveness and strong. strength of character at the same time. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that's so clear, and I wonder if that was your intention early on, or maybe certain aspects of becoming a new mother might have informed some of these things, because you are going through this period of transition, and, you know, as soon as I had my first child, I would read a new story, and the child in the story was my child. Oh, yeah.

You know, and I was not expecting that sensation. No, no. You're linked to all these other stories, aren't you? it's sometimes quite overwhelming, I think. I, it's interesting, because I used to, I always worked in children's policies. This was always an area of interest for me. I was particularly focused on child well-being and child poverty, even before I had my own child.

And I remember before Neve came along, you know, I once went through decades' worth of coroner's reports for children who had died in state care because I wanted to understand how they had been failed. Where had the system gone wrong? What had happened to these innocent children? And so I saw that as a part of my job, and so I went to that level of detail to try and understand those circumstances

after Neve arrived. You know, if it was part of my job, I would still do what was required, but it just, everything hit differently. And, but because I already had that vehemency around children's policy, it was just really extra motivation, not a new one.

The one thing that did that I didn't expect was how fixated I would become of solo parents because I would constantly think about how people did it on their own. It really struck me after I had need, because I felt so blessed to have, you know, my husband was the primary caregiver, my mother was around a lot, my mother-in-law, my cousin. How do people do it alone?

I just couldn't fathom that, let alone doing a loan in poverty. Yeah, that's enormous, and I totally understand why looking through it. I mean, looking through those coroner's reports must have been. Oh, brutal. Brutal, yeah. But, you know, that old saying is that when you have a child, it's like there's a piece of your heart that's running around out in the world. I don't know how to express it as well,

but somehow children themselves become emblematic of that for you. yeah yeah and it's striking yeah no i totally agree with that that feeling sometimes with my case i want to just almost like grow them all together seal the doors like that's it we're just gonna stay here right here let's freeze us in time we're good let's just stay here even though you know the independence and curiosity and all these things are also something you're supporting you're like in fact you're rooting for them but every once in a while just that what you've opened yourself up to of course and that constant battle of reminding yourself that it's not it's not for you to curate your child either, which is obviously the constant struggle as well, but they are their

own person. Yeah. And so we're somehow in that coach role, really. Yeah. And there were so many sweet bits of footage with Neva, like when you took her to the UN, I think. And I actually did a little first point. That's so cool.

I loved seeing all that. Oh, there's a bit where you finish a meeting and she goes around shaking everybody's hand. And they're all so pleased to see her and the warmth that brings and that positivity. made me feel really good. I thought it was gorgeous. You know, when I see that, I mean, the UN was just out of necessity, she was four months old and I was still breastfeeding. She just had to come with us.

They're quite portable at age. They are quite portable. They are quite portable, but I do remember that when we first landed in New York, because it's a big trip from New Zealand. We took two flights. One was about 13 hours and then another, say, four hours. At the time we got to New York, Neve was just done. She was done.

She was tired. she didn't know what time it was and you know we just struggled to get her down and then Clark just said you go to bed you know I've got this because I had I had to speak in the morning and so those moments where you know you've got your eye on two different things at a time and I'm always whenever I see that footage I'm reminded of that first that hard first first night but again I still had the village yeah that's true but that makes me think of when I've done that sort of thing and you've got your new baby and you're doing something, and then part of you wants people to say, oh, congratulations,

or, oh, they're still tiny. Another part of you is like, don't mention it. I'll probably cry. And I remember during this so old, of course, you know, now I'll become this moment where it's hold some important, I guess, for the fact that she was the first child on the internally assembled a week floor, and yet my memories are jet lag,

or she just stopped wanting to breastfeed while we were away. And so we suddenly realized that we didn't have enough of the formula she was used to with us. It was a very particular kind because she got upset stomachs. And just a number of people that helped us try and find this wretched formula while we were away from New Zealand or the fact that I'd very carefully before we traveled set out outfits for her for each day. Oh, wow. Just because, you know, when you're, you know, give a busy person a job.

I was just, you know, it's one of those things. I think. I don't know if this happens to anyone else. When there's just so much going on, you control what you can. And one thing I could do was just pack her outfits for this trip, you know. So I'd carefully plan them. And one morning I went off, Clark was obviously getting Neve ready for the day. And he paid no attention to my carefully laid out outfits. And I saw them. He'd just gone to a spouse's lunch. And so the baby, Neve had gone and met all these spouses from around the world. She was dressed in the most atrocious outfit. He'd been given a, we'd been given a UN General Assembly onesie,

but it was about three sizes too big for her. So she had on this red undershirt, this baby blue onesie draped over the top and all kind of misshapen and floppy. I was like, where's the cute, spotted little dress I bought over for her? These are so trivial in the grand scheme of things, and yet I have these little mothering memories. In amongst everything else.

And they can be very triggering as well because you're like, you can be thinking, you know, I know she's fine, I can see you're fine, but I want, you know, that's the thing, that was my participation and what you're up to today and sometimes seeing those little things with your intention and how you'd laid them out, it'll make you feel like, again, it's that feeling of it's wonderful to have lots of support, but sometimes when people are functioning really well, you're like, well, kind of, kind of want to know that there's a role in it for me on these days as well. And that I think was at the heart of it.

what I really struggled it with when, you know, I had to acknowledge my breastfeeding days were over. And it wasn't my decision. It was Neves. She just gave up in the end, just wouldn't have it anymore. And it was that exact sentiment. That was the thing that I was meant to do. That was the thing that I was meant to be able to provide for a period of time. And now that I'm not, does that mean she doesn't need me in the same way? Can other people fulfill all the jobs that she needs and you know I know that in many ways it was a very silly sentiment but I couldn't deny it existed and it just made me feel deeply sad but it also actually allowed Clark to be able to be fully independent with her in lots of ways it took a lot of pressure off him and so there were

upsides if I was willing to see them yeah but I get that and I don't know what it is about breastfeeding, but I think if it's something you decide is important to you, your brain can get very obsessive. Yeah, I was absolutely obsessed. So I just, and it was, I was, were you one of those people who was like, look, I'm just going to, what will be will be. And then that was out the window. I don't know if it's a sleep deprivation. I think it depends on lots of things. I think it's what the association is. I think my first two were really early, so they were in hospital and babies that are born before 34 weeks, I haven't got any sucking reflex. so they can't actually feed.

So I couldn't breastfeed at all, but I could provide milk if I could get that going. And because they were having quite a medicalized introduction to the world, I'm in hospital for up to six weeks, the only thing I could do that wasn't a medical and the beeps and the whistles and the wires was bringing this milk. So I got obsessed. I had a little rucksack with a little double pump thing in it. Yeah, it was absolutely my thing.

And I was hardwired for as long as I could manage it. And I had to stick with my second. Same thing. It just wasn't working at all. That's totally understandable and I hadn't really thought of it from that perspective. But I think one of the things I became fixated on was I have to make the logistics of this work. I had six weeks of maternity leave. And I remember in some ways thinking this is the time where I have to get a routine down.

We have to sleep down. We have to have this feeding schedule down because I have to go back and we have to make all of this work. work. And so I think trying to get to a place where I could breastfeed without the logistics of pumping in between became part of that. Because it took up so much time, but I wasn't going to be able to do that when I was in the office. So I became fixated on making that become seamless.

And those are two things. Breastfeeding is seamless. Just do not go together for so many people. So many people. Yeah. But there's also the physical process. that feeding a baby means that if you haven't got the baby with you, what happened? Where are they?

Sometimes you can, like, nothing's changed here. Yeah. The physical baby makes you feel connected and makes everything stop. There's actually, like, I'm sure, hormones that happen to make you relax, that you sit down. If you don't do that, for whatever reason, choice, health, anything, then I think it makes you feel like there's a punctuation mark. There is. You've decided not to sort of part of your life anymore.

And the old pumps aren't quite full that. Man, I pumped in some weird places. Oh, I'm right there with you. Back of vans. Back of vans, yeah. Planes. I did it on a little domestic plane. I know it's a small, small, small plane right next to a protection officer who just did not know where to look.

I mean, it's not that you could see anything. I discreetly, I had portables. So at the airport, I discreetly got into the airport bathroom. I put them in place. I came out looking like Dolly Parton. Are these like disco-boobo style ones? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I had those as well.

Yeah, and got on the plane and they were very just, I thought, well, I'm going to wait for the rumble of the engine. Yeah, because they do make a noise. They do make a noise. You sound like you're in a, you're at a dairy farm. And so I flicked them on, and I thought I'd done a quite good job of being discreet, but I could just see the colour of this DPS office. face changing and the way he just awkwardly was looking around this like very small space as if to make eye contact with anyone else but me and I thought yeah he knows what's going on

under my shirt right now yeah yeah it's sometimes can be a tough one to style out it is a very tough to style out yeah I know that feeling well I remember that feeling yeah um when I was watching the film I had this sensation almost like I was holding my breath the whole time and I guess when you said it's in a 90 minutes it sums up that time. It's such a strange thing because you know what happens. And yet you're, it's as if you don't know what the ending is. Well, I think it's also because you're so drawn into it. And some of the footage is intimate, you know.

It's you and Clark, which my kids love that he called himself first bloke, by the way. And your relationship. And I think it just pulls you into that feeling. So you're sort of, you're kind of thinking like, whoa, this is so much. But then I was thinking maybe there's aspects, are there aspects you miss? Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I know it's easy to see the stressful side. Yeah, it is.

I miss the people and it's the one thing that the film, for lots of reasons, you know, you can't have too many characters, I guess, but I worked with amazing people. And I miss that, you know, because obviously I work with a smaller, equally amazing but smaller group now. I miss seeing a problem and knowing you have it within your power to do something about And that doesn't mean that something you can do is easy or straightforward or always seen favourably. But, you know, in a world where so many people feel disenfranchised and disempowered,

that is a real gift. So I miss that, but I don't regret the choice to leave either. No. So I think you can feel both things. Yeah, and I think your choice to leave is symbolic as well of your whole style of leadership when you were in that time because you were you left a time when you felt like you weren't you felt like you've done what you needed to do you weren't going to keep delivering the way you intended yes whereas i think politics can sometimes be a world where

there's lots of ego involved and that's not always put front and center sometimes people can get can shift the emphasis so i think it all it's all very fitting but i also wondered what's post leadership life like? What's it like to move into a more civilian aspect of life? I imagine for everyone it's different. But one of the great things about being a leader in a place like New Zealand is there's some elements of the day to day that aren't very jarring to transition out of because when you're in a small country, your security detail is not as large. You might still be able to do normal things like drive your car or go and get your groceries and those are all things I still, simple things in life that I still did while I was

in office. And so when you return, it doesn't feel like as much of a leap. I know that sounds strange, but I heard one Prime Minister recently say, I just drove a car for the first time in eight years. That wasn't like that for me. And I think also if you, if you do come into leadership with some hesitancy, then maybe leaving power feels a little bit different. For me, power was akin to responsibility, a great weight of responsibility. And so rather than it be something that you cling on to, when you think about whether you cling on to deep responsibility in the same way that you might, the perception of power,

it probably hits a little different. So that's probably why for me it felt like something was lifted rather than lost. Yes, and it seems like it was lifted really quite quickly. Oh, instantly. instantly I don't think I appreciated that I think they're almost, I had it in my head that there's, I don't know, some kind of transition period but actually

when you think about it you either hold the power of office or you don't and so once it was signed away with the flick of a pen it was gone. There was nothing more for me to do and so after that moment at the Governor General's House of New Zealand it suddenly occurred to me of course that I would have to find

transport from the building, like being bought there as Prime Minister. And so I remember saying to the driver, can I hit your ride back? Am I still allowed? Yeah, am I still allowed? They were like, yes, ma'am, we will at least give you one last ride. And so Clark and I, we went down to just a little cafe down on the waterfront, just had a cup of coffee as a normal citizen and took a walk. Yeah, what a normal thing.

And it was lovely because I realized then, poof. Incredible. I mean, I feel like I already know the answer to this. But when you're in office and, you know, you've got the intensity. And I know you've got this amazing team around you. But did you and Clark ever had discussed this kind of almost? If this does top, if the balance topples with all these new things we're dealing with, there's like a panic switch of just like, okay, when I'm not going to keep doing if it gets too much, so to speak.

Yeah. Oh, it's an interesting question, but no, we never did have that conversation. I don't mean to doubt, like, anything about your ability to lead. I suppose it's more just because it's all new. And also, you have got this new baby. Yeah, what's the threshold? Yeah, exactly. There might have been a point where you think, like, because everybody's got the balance

of when they know they're actually needing to prioritize. I don't know if they're held for their. I wonder if we never had that conversation because we both have in some ways similar personalities and that we're both pretty stubborn. And I don't think we would have, you know, it was obviously me that first put the conversation of, hey, is now, is now the time. And he was, you know, remember it being this real back and forth where I would try and solicitor response.

And he was almost trying to put out this neutrality on it. Wow, that's what you've decided you want to do. Oh, it's quite frustrating sometimes. It was, but it was because he actually had an alternative view, but he knew I needed to make the decision, you know. He wanted me to stay. And eventually he did offer that up. But he wanted me to stay because he didn't want it to be seen that I was giving up.

We also probably wants to check that you'd be okay with all of that. Because you can't really change your mind, can you? And nor can you change the way that people will perceive it. That's out of your hands. And I think that was my perspective. That bit's out of my hands. I just need to make, you know, what I believe to be the right decision. And then as a family moved to Boston.

Yeah, what was meant to be three months Oh really? Is that what the intention was? Yeah, it was. Because I wondered how significant was that you moved to another country for a bit. I wondered if that was a sort of deliberate move just to kind of relieve the pressure cooker or change the landscape for a bit. When we left, we didn't really have any intention of leaving New Zealand.

We didn't really know what was next at all. We kind of took every day as it came and then this opportunity landed. And we thought, well, that could be a fun adventure. You know, it was three months. We thought we'd go, September, we'll come back at Christmas. But then we got over there and thought, well, yeah, this is, we made the decision during the fall, which is lovely in Boston.

Very pretty. And then winter hit. But we'd already made our decision, so there we were. Is it quite a long, cold winter, though? I don't really know Boston. A Boston winter is, they can be quite brutal. Right. You know, snowy, short days, you know, very cold.

cold. But, you know, they still had a novelty for us. Yeah. So, yeah, we went through two of them. And I did wonder if, once you take yourself to this new landscape and this new role, does your relationship with motherhood change for you? Like, does it take on a different shape? I know that's a strange question, but I suppose everything is shifted. It's a big thing for a family to relocate. And your days would be a different shape because you're doing a different style of... They are, but I think what I've also discovered is, and I always say this about kids, don't they? Their adaptability, but I think kids adapt to, you know, the shifting sands of whatever work is doing for your life and your timetable. So when I was prime minister and, you know, I was mostly present first thing in the morning and then at barth time, then that's what need was used to.

I suppose I meant more for you, really. I think Neve is clearly like she looks like such a happy little person. There's so much goodness radiating from your family unit in general, like the relationship that you have with, it's so beautiful to see it. Oh, we're very normal as well. Like I would not hate to give the idea that we're not. No, I can see that. Everything seems really grounded and pragmatic and really supportive of each other and working

in real time with each other as well, which is so important for any relationship, particularly when you've got these shifting sounds. Totally. But I suppose for me in the way I see motherhood, you know, has it. I think having the experience of being a mother when I had ample reason to excuse myself from guilt and still feeling guilt was a really great lesson because I think I realized that I can have what will feel, you know, the most important job in career that I will ever have, and one where if I was ever going to think that my absence was justified

and still feel incredibly sad at times about my absence, that is a message to me that that's actually just the privilege of parenting. That's a nice thing to say. I'm going to remember that for my heavy boots days, actually. Yeah. Is there anything you think that can be done, to better support parents going through those emotions, or do you feel that you had the best version of what that would look like?

I almost... I think I had the best version I could, but I realized I was privileged. So then I would think, well, I'm a policymaker. So then you go back to that single parent. Yeah, so I have some responsibility. And so, you know, we extend a pay parental leave. We put in a universal tax credit and, you know, payment for all families for the first year of their child's life.

We, I mean, one of the last things we did was increase the child care subsidy for families, but we made especially sure that it would reach almost every sole parent to New Zealand. We increased sole parent payments. We did lots of things based on. Once you have that knowledge and that understanding and that belief, then you need to do something about it. But the one thing that's less tangible that I try and talk about, because I don't think we're very good at this, is how we give ourselves grace.

and the one trick that's worked for me is to give myself the same grace that I would want my daughter to have you know in the future if she chooses to be a mother and she chooses to have a career I hope she's able to do both and feel good about both and yeah that requires a bit of grace

that's so lovely I can really feel that and I think I love what you said about guilt as well about how that is maybe just one of the privileges of it because that is, everybody's got a version of it and goes back to that resonance of the movie where even though it's not my first-hand experience, we've all had a version of what that look. It's almost like a sort of caricature of those emotions,

the bits where you're trying to be all things to all people, or you feel like you're spread too thin, or you're just not quite sure how to make it work for yourselves. I think it's because we naturally associate guilt as an emotion as a sign of us that we're doing something wrong. I think as humans, perhaps our prior experience parenting is you feel guilt when you've done something wrong. And so when you feel it as a parent, you think, okay, I feel this way, I'm doing something

wrong, I'm balancing my time badly, I feel this way. And so I either, you know, I need to change the, and maybe in some cases you do want to change it against, but actually, I just think often, it's not that you're doing something wrong. It's just that you're feeling torn. Yeah. And so maybe thinking of different ways that we can characterize that sentiment. Yeah.

I actually spoke to Lindsay Uttes, who was one of the directors of the documentary. And she had some very good questions for you as well. She had her turn. Fair of line. I mean, I have to say the one where she was talking about shifting things in roles of leadership, whether it be political or otherwise was something she voiced and I thought oh yeah that's a good question

but she also asked about I think you've kind of answered it really about what message you send out to women new mothers maybe who feel like they're not they're not really getting it right but I think what you've said about the guilt and those aspects yeah what is what is right

yeah so true yeah it's I don't think these are perfect I don't think there's a perfect model I don't think there's a perfect balance and some of these emotions are maybe, yeah, just things that come part and parcel with the job. One thing, though, that I do feel like

I have to credit my daughter with at certain points I realize that I was placing a lot of assumptions out there about the way she perceived the way I use my time and making a lot of assumptions about how she would characterize absence. And I imagine that will change at different points in life, you know, different ages and stages.

Our kids probably perceive jobs, career, time differently. But I think we should try not to assume too much, but just let our kids come to their own conclusions. And I think if they see that we find value, both in being a parent but also in career, that we find worth, that we find that we feel that we're making some contribution, they'll feel and see that too. and maybe not view it as simplistically as we think they might.

I think that's very, very wise. And you're right about joining the dots and maybe projecting things or something they say and reading much more into it than they mean. Yes. Because as you say, parenting is a long way, but so is growing up. Exactly. And actually you shift how you view those around you all the time. And I think if we make an assumption that our kids, you know, constantly hate our absence,

we sometimes hear the reaffirmation of that. Yes. it. Very, very true. Is this, did you get any, are there any similarities actually between your childhood and naves? Are there any things you've drawn on to? Other than the fact that I, I am slowly becoming my mother. I hear myself say things and I'm like, oh my gosh, that was Lorella doing right there. Or actually my father comes through sometimes too. You don't know how lucky. No I mean gosh

In some ways Yes Because actually the things that I really Valued about being in New Zealand Are we really try and reaffirm But I mean I didn't step onto a plane Until I was 12 years old

I didn't see the South Island Until gosh I think it was a teenager You know I had a one Wonderful childhood. Wonderful childhood. But, you know, it's still quite different in terms of the expanse of needs. Yeah. And I guess yours was a bit more rural. Yeah, yeah. I lived in a small town and yet, you know, there's, and yet there's so much joy in that as well. Yeah. Freedom. Yeah, a lot of freedom. A lot of freedom. Huge amount of freedom comes with that. So there's tradeoffs in

every version, I think. Yeah. And I guess small but free versus big. but a little more constrained. Yeah, but then you can carry through sometimes family dynamics without it being literal like for like. Yes. So maybe the way your mum would have spoken to you at something, like your dad, like you said, you're such channeling them out. Sometimes those things just sort of slip through

and it's about framing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. One other thing I want to ask you, and I don't know if this will be something you've experienced, but as I've reached my, I'm in my 40, I'm a little bit older than 46. And for me, it's been this decade where I really feel like I've been sort of joining the dots of my, all aspects of my life into one place. I think I used to have my sort of more public side of things and then my family thing here

and they would kind of be slightly compartmentalised. Yes. And getting older is kind of being about, I don't know what the word, maybe accepting or celebrating, you can be all these different things and they can all coexist. Yes. And I did wonder if some aspects of your intention to humanise the role you had and bringing people into you in your pajamas, you and your partner, would also tally with that sensation? I don't know if that's just me or if that's like a general feeling. No, I think that's a great reflection.

And whether or not, I couldn't tell you whether or not it's in part because, you know, I'm getting older that I'm more inclined to be that way or whether or not it's because I genuinely. believe that part of the issue that we're facing in these times is that dehumanization that actually, you know, bringing a bit more of your life to the fore as part of that might be, and that doesn't mean everyone should have to if they don't feel comfort with that or, you know, but, but I feel like there's some value in doing that. And I guess as well it comes back to maybe some of the things that drew you towards politics, the people, people's stories. I think sometimes we're encouraged to think politics is kind of over there

and then there's other life here. But actually politics is part of everything, isn't it? Oh, and, you know, it is. I remember having this conversation stuck in my mind because you're absolutely right. People do see it as something that happens over there by people who are out of touch with whatever it is that you're experiencing and have no interest in what you're experiencing

and are there for their own self-interest. and maybe they'll engage in an election, maybe not. And I remember when I first entered into Parliament, I was campaigning in my old hometown. And I'd been going from business to business. And as I was walking down the street, I ran into a girl that I recognised from my high school. She was younger than me, and we were just having a conversation.

And I asked her at first whether she was intending to vote. She said no, but I didn't press her. Instead, I thought, I'll just have a conversation. and she said to me she was holding a bag she said to me she'd just been to the doctor and picked up a prescription and so I talked to her about and part of her job she was an apprentice

since she was off to work and so I tried to subtly not in a judgmental way point out to her that both the subsidised cost of her prescription in her bag and the job she was going to have been created by a government and that unfortunately can't take anything

for granted, and I understand how people, I understand all the reasons people feel grievance and feel like there's a detachment in politics, but there is no changing the fact that there's a huge amount of influence from politics in people's lives. And the best thing we can do right now is have more people engaged with that, but also reflect in politics itself, more compassion with the fact that we affect people's lives. Yeah, and compassion for all the, factors that influence people's mindset as well. Absolutely. You know, even when you're vehemently opposed to some other person's perspective,

they got there through some experience. They got through some thought process and understanding that's important. Understanding why people take those positions is important regardless of where you sit. Well, I might be totally barking at the wrong tree with this, but I did wonder if, in fact, I was listening to you talk about your childhood and Mormonism. and how sometimes you were like the only Mormon in amongst 50 people. Yeah. And I wondered if that does set you up with an understanding of what otherness feels like actually and empathy.

Yeah, I think that's probably fair. I've thought about that, you know, when you're the only lefty in the village as well. I grew up in a rural place. And yet I always remember identifying. It's like I was supporting the football team that no one in town liked or something. I was, and, you know, look, other people. of course, have far greater experience of what it is to be in different groups than this. But me and my sister were the only Mormons at our school.

Sometimes that was a source of, you know, amusement. I only remember a handful of times where I got a hard time about it. But, you know, people, you know, various times people would say I was part of a cult or thought it was strange. and so I remember very deliberately choosing to never be angry or upset about that. I couldn't expect everyone to know everything about my religion. It was a bit unusual. And so maybe that starting point, maybe that's in some ways helped. Who knows?

I think everything in our lives influences in some ways that we can't always appreciate. Yeah, well, I suppose I was thinking. I was thinking about what you might feel like if you're the sort of small person that grows up to be prime minister because I don't think, I don't know that's everybody in everybody's what they would either be gravitating towards or end up doing or desire. Yes. You know, it's just not for everybody, but I'd imagine that someone who views the world in these frameworks, that it's probably the bones of it,

must be being laid throughout your life that lead to that point where you can step into that role and think, I know you spoke about imposter syndrome, but you're still, by and large, in a position where that might occur. So I was just thinking about, I suppose, like, what it's like in a child or a teenager, and if you'd feel a slight perspective that's maybe a little bit different to your peers, because a lot of kids aren't thinking of the world in those terms. Yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting for whatever role. we find ourselves, and we're so quick to think of the, you know, the previous occupation that gave us the skills and competency for that, for that role.

But actually in leadership, it's life that prepares you. And in some ways, nothing about life will prepare you for certain things. But the values you have will, they are the compass that you, that you use. and that's where I feel incredibly lucky because I had the role models in my life people like my parents were they were incredibly generous my father was my first version of

what it was to hold power and yet isn't it interesting it was only when I came to write my memoir that I thought about that because I never thought about him as being someone with power he was a policeman a senior one of course he had power

but that's never how he presented to me or how he felt in those jobs. He was a community policeman, you know, so having a chance to reflect on the influence that things like that had was, yeah, really interesting. Well, yeah, because I was thinking since stepping away from being prime minister, it's not like you haven't, it's not like to close the time off. You've written two books, so your memoir and your children's book and been lecturing at Harvard, being a fellow there. What are you up to now?

Ah, yeah. Well, there's actually the adult book has been turned into a youth reader for teenagers. Oh, that's clever. What does that involve? So it sort of gets put into terms. Yeah, so it gets slim down. The word count halves. Some aspects, obviously, by necessity, come out, but some new aspects that are more relevant to teenagers goes in.

Is that a process that's happening to a lot of... Yeah, some memoir, yeah. What great idea. Other leaders have done this as well. And I remember at the time that I said, oh, sure, let's do that. I didn't quite think about having to go back to the keyboard. So do you like to do it yourself? Oh, so someone who professionally...

I mean to sound surprised, but I suppose I thought it would be like a... Yeah, no, someone professionally has the role of doing the big edit, but for the extra additional pieces. And then, of course, I go through it all and check that it's being edited down in a way that still carries the story. It's a great idea. Yeah. Because also getting kids, getting teenagers.

into the political, like wanting to vote and participate, something I care about a lot too. Also, just to believe that if they are that kid that doubts themselves, that there is a place for them and that we need a bit more humility and leadership. So that's something called My Mind, obviously, the documentary, whilst it's, I was the mere content, you know, I do think it carries some important messages. So it's been a joy to. be able to talk about that. I run a fellowship on empathetic leadership, so I work with politicians who are still out there on the front line and support them personally in the roles

that they have. And I'm also in a program with Oxford, and we're doing a little bit of work on what empathetic leadership and politics means, what it looks like, and to what degree that's what voters might be seeking as well. I don't know if you would agree with this, but my And mum has a theory, which I actually think is true, that some people are born with empathy and other people have to learn it. But I do think it's up to us socially to put the emphasis on its importance and its value. Well, I talk about this so often, but I have this simple view that if a value is important enough to teach our kids, why we wouldn't expect it in our leaders.

But also to remember to teach kids about it too, like empathy, like the experience of other. Like not everybody has that as an innate. Everybody can see someone else's experience and feel those things, I don't think. I think it's sometimes you have to be taught that it's worth investing time and developing that muscle, you know? Plenty of thought processes that we learn, ways of thinking, the critical thinking that we learn, the ability to think from, you know, and for me, empathetic leadership captures a number of things. One, yes, of course, the ability to think from the other person's perspective. But actually, when you're a decision-making, it's as important to bring in those individuals to, decision-making as well.

You know, for example, when we did mental health work, we brought in users, people who had experienced the mental health system. It's consensus building. It's transparency and decision-making. It's being willing to be human and accept error and mistakes, both by ourselves and others. And it's, you know, the actions that we take. Once we understand the human experience, someone has, it's the actions that we take. take as well. Would you encourage these other leaders to do documentary movies about their experience

to be? I can't imagine it doing it any other way than we did, which was, you know, when Clark first picked up a camera, it wasn't because we had some end point in mind. And that's what took the pressure off it? Because I think if you'd said to me, oh, what about the idea of making a documentary? I was just shut that thing off, you know. But because that... Just give me a minute. Exactly, because it wasn't the mindset. That's what allowed it to be as intimate and as frank and open. So I don't know how you recreate that. No, but maybe letting people into, maybe they should just be documenting as they go.

Because even if it's just for, even if it's not the end point, it does help so much to be able to step into that and demystify aspects of it. And actually appreciate the extreme levels of stress and responsibility that accompany it. We know it, but we don't really engage with that much. Visual aids, definitely, Adelaide. They do something, they do, they do have a long-running documentary series in Australia. But I want to say that the last version of it was called The Killing Season or something of something equally brutal, which I think gives a bit of a flavour of the tone that some of the have had.

They might not encourage much engagement with these leaders. Exactly, exactly. Do you still document now? Do you still have, do you still pick up the video? camera for. No, no. I mean, you know, we do what families do really. Yeah. Well, no, sometimes that involves a lot of filming. Yes, sometimes it does. Sometimes it does, which of course, some members of the family have less patience with than others. And before I let you go, I wanted to ask a little bit about music and not just in your life, but I noticed there were certain key moments of music in the

documentary. Yes. And I get the impression that it's quite a big part of your life and Clark's, and I think you DJ sometimes. Oh, well, well, I'm a mere tune selector. That's basically what DJing is. Yeah, well, my DJ husband would argue otherwise. I am a tune selector. He is, he is... I think that's semantics. I'm sorry to weigh down.

I'm not trying to create an argument, but... Well, I can't mix if that's... Oh, I see. So just one song finishes and other song starts. Oh, fade in, fade out. I mean, like, I'll do the basics. When you do that, just make them so they cross at the same time and that's DJ. But what my husband could do is much more complicated.

So he does more like beat matching. Right, got it. And music is, I would say, for both of us a big part of our lives. And there's a Venn diagram that crosses over where we have similar taste and in other cases where we... But I think we both appreciate each other's taste for the most part. He was very vested in the music for the documentary. Oh, really?

So a lot of those were his choice, were they? Oh, he was a big part of it. Yeah, he was. Oh, well, if he wasn't, he had lots of thoughts on some. what was produced but there was obviously someone who had that role within the film specifically but I remember at least hearing him talk about the music and I think it has its own soundtrack as well yeah but also it's evocative but also it again brings in that whole all these lives we have all these aspects of us I take the I take the view that um you know music is you know

and someone else obviously famously see that music is the soundtrack of your life and And so I associate time and place with different pieces of music. And the same was for my time and office and life. In the memoir, I use as reference points, different music that was playing a role in my life at that time. I grew up in a rural town, so around me there was a lot of Pantera and Metallica and sepulterre and tall and nine-inch nails, really heavy stuff. Um, whereas I was, you know, I was kind of a little more smashing pumpkins and the violent fiends. And, you know, I was in a slightly different, um, Tripping Daisy, a different, um, headspace. The first band I ever saw live was Porta Ced.

Really? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So some things, you know, we're all frozen with a, oh, I had a very cool friend at high school. And I remember, I'm sure that I can't remember, but I'm sure I learn about Portisid from my friend. And, and, you know, and, her dad, Stephen, drove us to Auckland so that we could go and go to the concert and it was yeah these are again as I say these are moments that are just so so clear in my mind and so I would have songs yeah and when I was in office I would like pick a song for the year that was going to be my that was going to be my anthem for that year some of them ended up being a little you know motivational and some of them just matched the mood the frame of mind for that

I'm intrigued. Anything you can remember? I often talk about this one, but 2014, which was a particularly bad year, I probably would have played no less than a thousand times, the mountain goats this year, which the main line I'm going to get through this year if it kills me. Perfect. Music can sometimes say what we, well, it gives it that catharsis to that emotion. I did actually look up some of the songs that you DJ. I did notice there's none of mine in any of your playlist.

Forgive me. You will forgive the fact that. that in 2014, I did not predict that I would find myself in this particular situation. It's fine. It's fine. I don't know if you noticed that playlist. I thought, I wanted something thematic. And so I decided that I was going to go for kind of famous, crazy, you know, counterintuitive covers. So that's a good idea. So that's why I have William Shatner singing common people. Yes, I noticed that, yeah. Which is a absolutely brilliant cover. So, so good.

Well, thank you so much. for today. Thank you. For the last thing, the director I spoke to Lindsay. Yes. She said you had a really good line about being a superhero needing a sidekick. Ah. What is she talking about?

She's talking about this is, you know, this is my common refrain that whenever I had a woman, because I did, I had several who would come and say to me, I don't know how you do it. And the thing that I felt was really important was to point out to them that that's because I didn't do it alone. and that I hoped that people could see that I never did anything alone and that we should not expect women to do everything on their own. Yes, you know, we can be Wonder Woman, but even Wonder Woman deserves a sidekick. Yeah, she really does. That seems like more helpful advice maybe than I might just stay with, just get on with it.

Very practical, though. So it was about the most British thing your hair, isn't it? I don't know what I expected when you ask the question. how she managed to raise a family and hold that life of service. What else was she going to say? Exactly. It's very fitting. You just get on with it.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Yay. Oh, that was such a glorious chat. And so many things I can take away from it. it's interesting isn't it as i as i said to jessinda in the in the interview i really did feel like i resonated and related to so much of the prime minister documentary even though as far as i'm aware i've never actually run a country or been anywhere near that but it's crazy isn't it

what themes can come out for all of us and i suppose that's part of the reason i i've always loved doing this podcast is because there's bits of other people's life that you go wow that's fascinating i had no idea i can't even imagine And then there's bits we go, oh, well, I totally get that. That relates to something I've felt in my own life. So I appreciated all of that. And also it was nice to be able to cover so much, including our own Queen's advice. Just get on with it.

That's so British, isn't it? And I guess for the Queen, Queen Elizabeth in her era, that would have probably felt like absolutely. the best option. But now maybe through a little insight, we can also appreciate and celebrate and give fanfare to the people and those around us that support us and also highlight where more support would be helpful. Thank you very much. But yeah, I absolutely loved it. Oh, and I've also thought quite a lot about the Every Wonder Woman deserves a sidekick. I like that. But yeah, I absolutely love that chat. So thank you again to Jacinda Ardan, being such a brilliant person to speak to and to, to,

Lindsay, to give her another shout-out for, not just for the questions, Lindsay, but thank you also for the documentary. I know there are other names attached to it, but I'm going to sing it out to you as well. And to the team that put together the time for me for Claire and I to go and speak to Jindra Ardan. And yeah, just felt really good about all of that. And fascinated. Absolutely fascinated. What a life. What a way to become a mum. Can you imagine? How stressful. how spread thin, but also how you've got to be able to, yeah, just give permission to yourself to occupy all these different roles and give space to them all. But also, yeah, I think I just keep going back to the stress. You'll see in the documentary. It does definitely look like

it's quite stressful at times. Anyway, I am feeling pretty chilled at my own world, so I can reflect how lucky I am to be at home on this nice sunset. sunny Sunday and be back. I mean, I've got little piles of stuff everywhere to put away. I went a little bit crazy with some of the vintage shopping, but my word, I did some good stuff. I got some good stuff, but that is no excuse really. I've promised myself I'm going to do another clear out this week. It's got to happen. And what else I got on this week? Actually, not too much of anything. There's one more episode of this week, this series podcast for you. So another lovely guest next week.

I would also just like, I know I'm always banging on about it, but honestly, some of the suggestions that you guys have sent me have been so brilliant. Please keep them coming. I promise you, even if I haven't directly gone out and spoken to that person, I've often started following them or engaged in their story, or maybe I've reached out and it'll happen in a future time. So you actively shape what this podcast is. And I'm so grateful. I've already got some really, really brilliant people for the following series, which I think will probably start in the new year. Yeah, it will, because when you're lit Christmas, blind me. Right, I'm going to do my usual shout-outs. So thank you again to this week's guest, Jacinda Adan. Thank you so much to producer Claire Jones.

Thank you to Richard Jones for being such a glorious editor, but also pretty brilliant bass player and a lovely husband as it happens. Oh, and of course, great daddy. And LMA, I'm thinking of you. She'll be back with us for the next series for sure. and I think I think that's it apart from you and your lovely ears

thank you for lending them once again I will see you soon I'm going to go off and get myself together now but it was nice to reflect and have a lovely rest of your week and I'll see you soon Thank you.