Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 170 Amanda Ross

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

Amanda Ross is a highly influential TV producer who has brought us the likes of Saturday Kitchen which celebrates its 20th anniversary next year, the Richard and Judy show which ran for 9 years, and the book show, Between the Covers, which she is now touring live and presenting herself. Amanda and her husband and business partner Simon Ross, own and run Cactus TV. Amanda told me that running their own TV company means that they can organise their lives around bringing up their two adopted sons, now aged 16 and 19.TRIGGER WARNING: Amanda also revealed to me that she suffered sexual abuse from her stepfather as a child. She wanted to share her story here, so that other people who might have gone through similar ordeals can, like her, learn that it wasn’t their fault, and that they should not feel guilty about what happened to them.Amanda's other big message is: just do everything with your children because you can take your kids anywhere. It’s just about attitude.Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lusbexter and welcome to spinning plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates. Greetings from Thursday morning. It's actually a really nice morning. I had this idea of, oh, bless you to that stranger that I just walked past. I had this idea of filming my introduction,

because basically next year I'm thinking, right, we've got to start filming the podcast. Everybody's bloody doing it. So we're going to set that all up. Anyway, I was like, right, maybe I'll film my intro, and that way, you know, could be an introduction. So yesterday, I started filming and, oh my God, it's hard enough walking past people when you're doing a voice thing, voice recording,

but filming yourself walking and talking. It's just too high up on the cringeometer thing. So, yeah, that's not happening. I'm just talking to you like this. Same as normal. I hope you had a really good week. How's mine being? actually really nice, very steady, no big shakes, no big drama.

And the last few days, the weather in London town's been pretty grey in the mornings. And today's really beautiful. It's one of those nice blue sky days. So I'm very much appreciating that. And here we are the last episode of this series of the podcast. Can you believe how long this has been going now? Nearly six years. That's incredible.

When I started the podcast, I thought, right, I'll just do 10 and see how it goes. And I have a little trick, which is that I always, every series record over 10. Sometimes it's by one or two, sometimes it's by more. But it basically means I'm committed to the next 10 because I have to finish on the end of a series, so to speak. So I've sort of, I don't know, tricked myself into always keeping pushing forward. But, golly, I've loved it and will continue to love it. So today's episode, I has to come with a trigger warning because my guest this week speaks very eloquently, articulate and openly about the abuse she experienced as a child. And I've known Amanda Ross for years, actually longer than I thought.

I thought I met her. I knew it was on the Richard and Judy TV show. which was in the early naughties. So that was an entertainment show in the evenings. I think it was like half five on Channel 4, I believe. And I knew... Actually, I've said Channel 4, was it? Yeah, I think so.

Anyway, so I knew we'd know each other for about 20 years, but it turned out I actually met her before I even met Richard. 2001, when I was promoting my first album. How crazy is that? That's a long time to know someone. And so Amanda is... the owner of a brilliant production company called Cactus TV.

And so she's a TV producer, very successful, like, in quite a sort of, what did I say, consistent and slightly stealthy way in a way, because I think she becomes part of culture without you really noticing what's happening. So, for example, as she mentions in the interview, the Richard and Judy show that I was part of, a couple of episodes, a few episodes back in the Nauties, she started on that a book club, and that was so successful that at one point it was responsible

for over a quarter of the book sold in the UK at that time because of recommendations from that book club so that's pretty astonishing, isn't it? I'm going to sit on a bench where I talk to you, that's nice, and I've done that before.

And she hosts, her production company run Saturday Kitchen which has been running now for nearly, I think she said it's nearly 20 years, is that right? Oh my word, that's crazy. So, you know,

Richard and Judy Ryan for nine years. She had her book show Between the Covers, which has now gone to a live format for the first time. And actually, while I've got you, I'm going to tell you a bit more about that because it's really cool. So for the first time this year, they did a live tour of Between the Covers,

and it's coming back next year. It's a place called Penny Hill Park, and the next one's on Friday the 6th of February. Some really lovely people. doing it. So Amanda Ross is actually hosting it. She's gone back to our presenting roots and she's on stage with Alan Davies, Alex Jones and some best selling authors like JoJo Moils and Abidari for it's a book club essentially but what a lovely thing to do. I think it's incredibly cool that she's doing that. So you can sit in the room with these lovely people so you've got you know comedians,

authors, presenters and they will have people talk about their books and you'll be able to to, you know, hear the conversations and all the stories and behind the scenes. So that's really lovely, isn't it? So that was, what was I say that was? I'm just going to make sure I got it to write for you. Friday the 6th of February at Penny Hill Park Hotel, which is in Surrey. So, yes, the point of all this be telling you about the things that Cactus TV and Amanda have done is because, to say, I've known her for a really long time, but I actually didn't know about her childhood.

So I found it pretty devastating really because it's funny, isn't it? When people talk to you about something they've experienced as a child, all you can really think of is them when they're small and what a thing to go through. So yes, a trigger warning for you there. Amanda and husband Simon adopted two boys. They have two sons.

They adopted them in 2010. and the boys are now nearly 17, 17, I think she's in December, and 19. And they are biological brothers adopted through the care system. And Amanda speaks so brilliantly about that process, about her journey to parenthood. She sounds like such a lovely mother. I love the way that she's been taking her boys to restaurants since they were small. I love the way that she has included them in her work. And I think she's a brilliant example of a really committed parent

and also one with their priorities completely in the right order. So while she might have experienced some very profound instability as a child and maybe did not have the map for what parenthood should look like, my word has she now found her feet. And I think you'll hear it in her voice, how when she speaks about the way she's raised her kids, she knows she's done what worked for them as a family. It's really inspiring and I did get emotional.

And I will pick up the leaves where we listen. So see you on the other side. So good to see you, Amanda. How are you? I can't believe I'm here. I can't believe I'm actually here in the spinning plates. Yeah, well, we've got so much to cover. And before we started recording,

we were reminiscing about how long we've known each other. Yep. And it's actually... Longer than your husband. I met you before you met your husband in November 2001. And you were on the fourth episode ever of a show that I was doing at the time that was considered to be quite risky and out there. Richard and Judy on Channel 4 and we took them to Channel 4 at 5 o'clock in the 5 o'clock slot.

And you were on show number 4. Wow. For your first album, which is absolutely incredible. And you were completely amazing. That's generous. I mean, I remember the show really well. I remember doing it later on after. You did it loads of times.

Yeah, we were on for nine years. You did it loads of times. Nine years. Yeah. Because I, my first memory of that show would have been probably the second time or maybe third time I came on. And I, so this was a live show. It was sort of like a little sitting room type set up. So I was on the show and I don't know if you would have.

have been aware, but I had a really bad cold and my mum had recommended Sudafed, which I've never had again since, because it affected me so much that I took this stuff and my pupils went tiny and my heart was racing. And then while I was on the show, Richard Madeley said, I think we've got your little boy here. Should we bring him out? And I kind of went, and I turned around to see Sonny must have been about two. And he came trotting over and his little corduroy, brown corduroy trousers had a massive radio pack on the back. He'd been mic'd up. Oh, my God!

Oh, my God! And he started taking apart the set. So I was that there with this pseudo-fed-induced racing art, watching my son taking out... There was like sticks and pebbles in a fake fireplace. Yes, yes. And Richard Mayle... Yeah, Richard Mayle said something like...

What do you say? Sticks and stones won't break my bones, but names may hurt me. And I remember thinking, I think he's misquoted that. And please can my son put down that stick. He misquotes a lot. He misquoted a lot, a lot, a lot through those nine years.

And it was like, what's going to come out next? We never knew that that's part of Richard's charm. We have to also give him his due to what he said to Vianz Joe for, which I've been reminded us of. It's down there with the Maidley quotes of because he is considered the Alan Partridge, the real life Alan Partridge. I do love Richard Maidley, nine really wonderful years. best best of times with rich and judy on channel four but he did do you want to say it or shall

i say it he said to me where did you get your face and i was dying dying in the wings thinking what where is he going but there is a lovely story about you on that because it was one of your first tellies and you've always been so brave and so out there and absolutely everything you've done and you've just like trod your own path. And this illustrates it in that we were doing some item. And I can't even remember what the item is now, but you had to consume something that was going to die your tongue. And your management at the time said,

please don't do that because you shouldn't die your tongue. And you shouldn't do that because we're going on somewhere else, whatever. And you were like, no, I'm going to do this. I'm here. I'm in this. I'm going to do this right from the beginning. And you did. And you did die your tongue and you stuck it out on telly.

And there we go. But, you know. The dice gone now. Look, as beautiful now, as you're beautiful then. And I think he meant, where did you get that face as being, how could you be so captivatingly beautiful? That's how I've excused myself for that comment live over all the years. Well, it hasn't haunted me.

I actually even at times thought it was really funny. I've always had a soft spot for Richard and Judy. How can you knock? No, you can't. And we fast forward to now, and obviously we will talk more about what you've covered. But why didn't we talk about what? because your life is so rich and busy. And in fact, I always knew the things you were esoteres were,

but the more I was researching, I was thinking, actually, what a pioneer, what a success. How many things have you, you know, influenced, you know, the nation with what you've been programming? But what have you got on at the moment that's exciting you? Well, I've always tried to do books on telly, and I started the Rich and Judy Book Club, which was pretty influential.

We made lots of book millionaires. and at one point I was responsible, my picks were responsible for 26% of all book sales in Britain. But I've tried to keep that going ever since, not The Rich and Duty Book Club, because that's now a money-making exercise in W8 Smiths, but since I carried on doing things with books on telly, and to do that, you can't make any money out of it,

which is totally right and totally fair, because all of your recommendations should always be impartial. So my current incarnation is a show called Between the Covers, and we did eight series on the B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-Wing. BBC. But legacy telly, as we're now known, anything on terrestrial is considered to be dead. So the future, I think, is live shows. And a million years ago, I used to be a presenter. And I really enjoyed it. So last year, I went back on stage with Joe Brand and Stephen Mangon and Casey Ainsworth and David Nick. No, that was last week was David Nichols. And Joseph O'Connor and we did six

theatre dates and they went really, really well between the covers live and I hosted them. So now we're doing between the covers live events with the exclusive collection at Penny Hill Park. And I did one a couple of weeks ago with Ruth Jones and Stephen Mangin again is one of my favourites. Most people. I was amazing. David Nichols and a new author called Florence Knapp. And we've got the next one's plans for February, which I'm really excited about because I've got Jojo Moyes, who's incredible. Abbey Daray, who wrote The Girl with the Louding voice and I've got Alex Jones from the one show and Alan Davies because I have to have a sexy man in there because our audience are largely women and what's so wonderful about it is it feels between

the covers live feels really empowering as an event for women because I say come along on your own because you'll meet people through books and you do and friendships are forged during the day and people come up to me saying oh we've just met we're going to be a book club now and it's just really it's really great because I think it's really hard especially as you get older as a woman to go out and meet new people and if you're meeting someone clutching a book it's a really easy way to start conversations it's not about you it's about the book that's so true in fact I saw a woman at the bus stop a couple of days ago

and she was literally just finishing a book I read last year that I loved and I really wanted to sort of always wait until she'd finish to go over and say wasn't it great did you say anything I didn't because I could see that she had maybe a few too many pages to go before, but she was literally like the last chapter. I think that would have freaked her out. So she respects her, coming up to her at a bus stop and saying, what are the chances of that happening?

What do you think about this book? I know, maybe just thinking, I've literally just finished, can you give me five minutes? Because sometimes when you finish a book, you want to just assimilate. But I wonder if you feel this as well. I didn't really know too much about that book world, but there's a generosity with authors that I think is not, it's not actually the same in other industries.

And people who love books and authors, they actually really support each other and want to talk about books and big up other authors and getting people involved in different types of reading. And I think it's got a really lovely warmth to it. Yeah, I think it absolutely has. And I think it comes from the point that to actually write something is such a hard process and it's solitary. And when you're out there and ultimately everybody wants their books read.

And so if anybody reads them, that's great. But I think there are too many books published in. Britain I really do because so few can punch through and so and but books are timeless they are really you can read any book at any time and it will speak to you in some different way so yeah no they are I find it much I much nicer world than telly I shouldn't really know but it's a bit sort of sort of more cozy around the edge I suppose it's like you said it's the intimacy of the exchange yeah because when you if you do write something or read something it doesn't matter if you know billions of other people have read it or will read it, you're just, it's a purity because it's just

you and the page to start with and just you and the page to finish with, which is very personal, isn't it? No, it is very personal and I don't, if I've really loved a book, I don't like seeing an adaptation of it or a movie or anything like that. I'm a big fan of an audio book. You're a purist. No, I really am, because those characters live in my head and I'm a very slow reader because I act books out in my head, and I'm much slower than all my team reading.

But then we'll have a meeting about a book and I'll say, what about this bit? What about that bit? And it will have passed over them and it makes me happy and grateful that I immerse myself. Yes. No, I know that's so lovely. And it's actually nice to hear that you don't read super fast because I think sometimes when you know someone is very well read, you assume they're sort of flipping through a book a day. Goodness, no, I really can't. But it's also I do, as I've got older, I've got braver about giving books up because I used to not do that. I used to think, oh, I'll start it, so I'll finish. But because I'm a slow reader and because there are too many books and because I'm never going to read in my life, every book I want to read, I do give up. I give it a good chance,

but if it's not speaking to me, it's like no. Page 50. If it hasn't got me hooked by page 50, I'm allowed to put it down. That's quite a lot though. Is it? Yeah, I think so. If we think a long book is like 400 pages and a short book is like 200 and something, 50 is about a quarter. of a lot of books. I suppose so, but for me, I usually have forgotten that rule by the time it's caught me. So maybe for me,

it's just a way of, like, getting myself involved. And actually, I probably have stop sooner if something's really arduous. But you said about too many books published, but there's lots of everything. Lots of books, yes, lots of podcasts,

but also lots of TV. But you have, your shows, your series run for, I mean, how long has Saturday Kitchen been going now? Next year will be our 20th anniversary, 20 years, 52 weeks a year live on BBC 1 and I'm very proud of it. Yes, right to say.

And Richard Gide around nine years. We had 14 years of the Saturday and Sunday slots on ITV. But I think the reason we keep things going is we change things up before the viewers or listeners decide that they need changing. Because now, particularly now when there's so many different places to go, if you've lost a listener or we've lost a viewer, you've lost them because they won't come back. because there's too much else out there to try. So I, if something's really working at its height, I'll often change it then. And some of the teams go, oh, my God.

All commissioning editors will be, oh. And it's like, no, because people can't get bored of it because if they do get bored. I mean, there was a thing called, I don't know if you remember years ago on Saturday Kitchen, there was a thing called the Omelette Challenge. Yes, I didn't know. And that ran for ages.

And then one of the commissioning editors said to me, or you might think about one day you'll want to replace an omelette challenge. The omelette challenge. And I said, right, okay, that's it. I'm axing it this week. And she was like, what? And I said, well, if you're thinking that, the viewers will be thinking that. And if one person thinks that, then more than other people would be thinking that.

And she was like, oh, no, you can't ax it until you've got something to replace it. And I said, no, what people didn't realize about something like the omelette challenge. And it was my husband, Simon's idea, who's my business partner. is that there aren't a million omelette challenges out there. We did a show for ITV where we auditioned. We had 40-odd episodes, and we auditioned a different omelette challenge type thing. Every show, nothing worked.

And you're not going to replace it, but if you do it in the right way and you just don't mention it, people don't notice. And so I just dropped it that week, replaced it with a different kind of item. Nobody noticed. about, you know, about three months in. People were sort of saying,

oh, what's happened to the omelette challenge? And it's just if you've replaced it with a different kind of thing. Whereas if we'd have done it with another game, everyone would have thought, oh, that's not the omelette challenge or compared it. But you have to, you've got to try and keep reinventing and keep doing things anew. And I think before people notice, and I think that's the thing I find most exciting about my job.

And that's why I've remained closer to production, than anyone else that I've encountered in my position because I got into television because I wanted to create and have fun and making things and be visually part of the process. I didn't get into television to run a production company which did happen for a while at the height of Rich and Judy when we were absolutely massive as an indie.

I was doing all of the empowering for other people to do all the interesting bits. really wanted to do that I used to do like filming summer director as well as being a producer and I've done some I was being taken away from that yeah in doing the deals dealing with problems and all that kind of stuff and I just thought no and especially when it came down to having kids and having to then choose exactly what you did go out of the house for I didn't want to go out of the house just to look at contracts and be do boring stuff like that I think that's it's incredibly relatable about sometimes when a job starts as, you know, the passion, which is

live TV and the nuts and bolts of it, and then the higher up you go, the less you actually are hands on. Yeah. And actually, when you've said that, it's actually remarkable because I've, you know, I've been lucky enough to participate in lots of TV, but it's very unusual that right from the start, I would always meet you when I go on. Yes. And if you're a guest on something, you very rarely see the people, you know, the head honchos. It's not the norm to have a character to it. And I'm also really glad you gave an example of what you mean about changing things before people notice because that's a really interesting and exciting instinct, but also so cleverly done because the character of the shows you're talking about, I have them in my head immediately.

As a viewer, I know what all those shows stand for, what kind of thing I can expect. But those little nuances of those decisions and changes have managed to keep the character and the style, but also keep interest. think that's a really brilliant and probably wildly underrated quality in a long-running TV show. Thank you. Thank you. But I mean, something like Richard and Judy, show four that you were on was very different to show 14, to show 44, to show 104, to show 100 and 4, to show 1,0004. Exactly. It was on for it. We did thousands of them. And it ate content and five nights a week, lots of different strands. And Simon and the team and everybody came up. were great at coming up with amazing strands,

and particularly Simon, that a lot of people then copied, and they became long-running shows on telly. There was a really funny story about a company called Wall to Wall who make, who do you think you are? We did a strand like that on Rich and Judy. And a researcher phoned me up, because it was in the days before digital and rewatch and blah,

and you had to put a VHS in the machine if you wanted to watch a show again. And they put through to lots of different, people and ended up getting put through to me saying oh can you please send us um a tape of your strand and i said oh why so she said well i'm development researcher at water wall and we think it make a great series and i went well if you're going to rip off hard idea bloody rip it off yourself i'm not going to make it easy for you to do that and there's lots and lots of things like that like goggle box we did um we filmed on rich and judy people that's how we did film reviews is we filmed

real people watching movies and being able to chat and how we did tele reviews and all sorts of things like that. But I don't, I think there's not necessarily a thing as an original idea in tele, but there's different ways of doing things and different ways of shaking it up. And you can't be precious because Channel at the time, Rich and Judy was the biggest ever commission that Channel 4 had done. And it was massive. And just that show without any of our other shows made us consistently in the top 10

independent production companies by size and now we're tiny but we're still in the top three suppliers to the BBC by volume but we it you can't be precious about things you can't because you'd just be eaten up the whole time you can't do that yeah it's a fascinating well but also I'm thinking about as you're describing all these things you're up to I'm thinking about how all consuming those roles are and quite often for people in your line of work they are not necessarily even thinking about family life. So did you always want to be a mother? No, I really didn't. And I had a very difficult childhood and I didn't think I knew how to be a parent. I was abused as a child and my mother, who's passed away now, so has my father and my

stepfather. And I was sexually abused by my stepfather. But my birth father was, was, and I used the term birth father because I ended up adopting, and that's how you refer to the parents in that. My real father, birth father, was schizophrenic, but he wasn't diagnosed. And he used to have very violent episodes. And when I was 13, he had a girlfriend who was 16. And people used to say to him, oh, which one's the daughter, which one's the wife? And so in one of his episodes, he thought, oh, I'll get rid of the one that's easiest

to get rid of. So I grew up in a place called Essex and he took me out in a car to a place called Canvey Island, which was like marshes in the middle of nowhere, chucked me out of the car and tried to run me over because he thought he would get rid of me. And I jumped into a telephone box. I had so many episodes all my life from the age four I've been told by my parents it was my fault that they were so unhappy and it was violent and everything else because I had been born and I didn't realize that children didn't ask to be born. I thought I didn't realize that it wasn't your choice as a child and I ran and I got into telephone box and he was ramming the telephone box and I called the police and I called my mom and eventually caught a tent it attracted to

tension and he drove off but then he drove to my grandmother's house his mother and he got all the photographs of me that he'd ever had and he burnt them and he put them in a jam jar on her mantelpiece and he said these are the ashes of my dead daughter so from then i was dead to him but meanwhile my mother when i was 11 she'd moved him with a man who had been my dad's boss at work and um he groomed me and basically i was desperate for love i was age 11 i hadn't had any affection and she used to, she empowered him to do so, and she used to encourage me to sit on his lap and, oh, just sit on his lap, just give him a cuddle.

And I was so grateful for the attention at first that I really didn't know. I couldn't think when it crossed over, when it was wrong. And then when it does cross over and you feel it's wrong, if your mother's watching, you can't think it's wrong because your mother is saying, these things are okay. And I don't want to go into all of that now because it's a waste of time and there's so much positivity about becoming a parent and being a parent is amazing. But because I hadn't had parents, I convinced myself that I didn't know how to be a parent and I didn't want to be a parent. And when I first got married, I said very firmly to my husband, I didn't want to be a parent.

and it wasn't until my 30s that I actually had therapy for the abuse and I discovered through my brilliant, brilliant, brilliant therapist who I love beyond love, Lorna who's empowered me in my life and I'm seeing her again now because I think she's amazing. We had a big long gap but I've gone back again now. And she taught me that it wasn't my fault. And she taught me it wasn't my fault. But first of all, by making me.

watched Goodwill hunting. It's hilarious. But she taught me it wasn't my fault. So then I just thought, do you know what? Maybe I can do this. Maybe I can be a parent. So my husband and I embarked on trying to be parents. And I had a lot, a lot of miscarriages. And my problem has been, not that I couldn't conceive. I did conceive, but I couldn't carry them because my immune system was very, very strong and I was constantly having miscarriages. And we went through a long journey to try and have controlled pregnancies with IVF. And sadly, that was all ended very sadly. I even tried surrogacy and that didn't work either. And I decided, I decided actually, I think it's fair to say this. This is my truth and not my husband's truth and he might see it differently.

But I decided I was ready to adopt before he was. I think I felt that it was more important to him that our children were blood related. To me, that means absolutely nothing at all. I've adopted two boys from the British care system. They could not be more my children. They are totally my babies. And I say to them,

they're more special because I chose them. And I encountered through the adoption process, so many people, obviously, who wanted to give away their kids and they find it too easy to have children and the children are literally in life's been because it can be too easy for some people. It wasn't easy for me

and there were thousands and thousands of children I could have chosen from in the British care system. And I picked them and I've always said to them they were born in my heart not in my tummy they were born in my heart and they are

I totally knew well I didn't completely know what I was getting but I knew those two boys are my two boys and they couldn't be more more more my two boys oh wow

well thank you so much for sharing all of that with me if it was really inappropriate I'm emotional because it's your story No, I'm emotional talking to you because... I just... I'm so sorry you went through all that when you were small. And here's to Lorna, who sounds...

Oh, she's incredible. I mean, how she's managed to... She'll listen to this. Yeah, I don't know, sending out... A big shout out to her for truly excellent support with you and all the conversations you must have had. Well, she was brilliant. I had to sort of wean myself off her in the end

because it was... I had... I think it's about three years in the first lots of sessions in my 30s, and she helped me completely come to terms with what had happened and to find a way forward with that. And actually what happened to me was part of the process or part of how I actually got my boys, and I will tell you that in a sec.

But she, it's not easy having adopted kids who come from very difficult backgrounds, and it's their story, and I'm not going to tell their story because it's their truth. And they sort of don't want to know the truth of their story either because we are their family. But I do need support. And so in the last couple of years I went back to Lorna and I was in a dark place.

And I contacted her and I said, I don't know if you're even still working because it had been 20 odd years. And she said, yes, I am. And so I started again with Lorna and she's very much part of my life again. Amazing. I don't think I'll ever give her up now. No, but I think I'm a big advocate for therapy I think it's brilliant

Oh my God, me too And I think what is coming to me That's so special And I think what made me emotional Not at least, you know, all the awful things you had to deal with And thinking about yourself in that way And understanding that, you know,

it wasn't your fault you were born That's a huge thing to have to Find acceptance And put yourself back in the shoes of you over the years to give your to reframe and bring out the strength that you needed to to see yourself in that way that's huge but also the fact that you can talk about it is massive as well not that there's any shade on anyone who would feel uncomfortable but just it's powerful i want to empower other people because i want there is nothing wrong with me

because i was abused and for years i thought there was i thought i totally thought it's my fault but I just want to tell you the fact that the positive, the most positive thing that came out of that was when my husband and I were going through the adoption process, and I have to say it is too hard to adopt in this country. It really is. There are thousands and thousands of children who are looked after.

And even after you adopt a child, and I've never ever wanted to use this term because they're my babies. And I hope you can feel the passion in my voice when I say they're my babies, is they are looked after children, they're not. There are, the year I got my boys, it was like a handful of what's termed babies adopted in this country.

It's just, it's too tiny. And we went through three years trying to prove that we could be approved as parents. There's too much discrimination against people adopting. I think there's too much emphasis. put on racially matching people because it doesn't matter. Love matters. Nothing else matters. And unfortunately, there's not enough people from the ethnic groups that want to adopt as there are people up for adoption from those groups. But the final, and we are sort of, we were at the bottom of the pile in that 75% of kids up for adoption at the time we adopted are black or mixed.

race or some kind of other ethnicity and 93% I think it is of people who want to adopt are white and they want to racially match you and we went through three years of difficult process and they made us do so many hurdles they said things like our house would be bewildering to kids from British care system because it was too big. I grew up in a council house in Essex. It's not bewildering to me. And just not my whole life, but quite a lot of my life was spent like that

and it's not bewildering to me. But lots of silly, silly, silly, silly hurdles. And it got to the very final meeting and the social worker said to me, is there anything about your childhood or about anything that would make you be able to deal with kids from a difficult background?

Because basically every child up for a child, option has had a terrible journey. It's a fact. And my husband looked to me and he said, okay, it's your truth. You can tell it if you want to. And I said, I was abused. And she looked at me and it was like, hallelujah. And she said, have you had therapy for it? And I said, yes. And she said, what did you learn from your therapy? And I said that it's not my fault. And she said, okay, I can approve you. And so my abusive stepfather actually did give you. me something good he got me on the road to my boys so but yeah shocking isn't it it's really wrong and really shocking yeah it is and I'm also um and just so you know if I ask anything that you

don't feel comfortable to answer to me like absolutely just tell me because I'm so guided by you with all this and I appreciate the sensitivity and also the people involved with this but I do think as well it's important I'm to be honest about it. it and be honest about the journey and hopefully if there's i mean i don't know if you can ever empower anybody to think that okay i can do that i can find space in my heart for someone else or that kind of thing that or to give them the confidence to keep going because so much in the adoption process makes you want to give up and i didn't i well you've known me long enough to know i'm not a quitter i do know that but well i have a little bit of experience well my sister dulcie um it took two years

to adopt her when I was in my late teens. Wow. So that's on my dad and my stepmom's side. So I saw a little bit, you know, from the viewpoint of a teenager who's obviously pretty self-obsessed in those years, aren't you? But I remember, you know, the conversations, the constant meetings, the interviews, the paperwork. It went on for a long time. It was quite a dominant factor, I'd say, in that household for, like, yeah, my latter teen years. And I'm also thinking about, how, did you go from? having no children to having two immediately. Yes, immediately. Wow. Because we were approved for three, a group, a family group of three, because we were slightly older. But the other thing

that was really important to me is I didn't want, I knew I was going to be an older mother anyway, and I was going to be the oldest person at the school gates. But I wanted my boys to be, I didn't particularly think I was definitely going to have boys, but the boys spoke to me. I wanted them to be of an age that I could have given birth to them and both my boys actually coincide with miscarriages that I had because I did start the adoption process when I was at the very end of an IVF process and you're not supposed to do that

but I knew it's going to take a long time and so both my boys could have been my birth children and maybe they are. I mean I don't want to sound tweets. but that is pretty magical actually. And I totally understand what you mean about that. They are your babies, they are your boys, and they were meant to be.

And my heart is hugely uplifted by that. And I know that you also have to try to navigate all the other children that you will now be aware of and how that system works. And the insight is given you. That's tough, isn't it, once you've had that? But also I'm thinking about, you know, we started off by talking about all these incredible achievements,

with work, how on earth are you navigating work at that level with all of this? Well, it was just when, because I'd made that choice, I didn't want to miss a minute that was important to them. But my eldest came to me when he was almost four and the youngest was 14 months. And I, at the time, we'd sold cactus and we were part of a group. We ended up buying ourselves back because it wasn't a happy relationship. We started in Indy because we liked being independent and as part of a group we weren't allowed to be.

And I was actually told by one of the chief executives of the group, he didn't support my journey into adoption because I was a 24-7 girl and that I wouldn't be able to do most. 24-7 girl, how do

this? Sorry, who was this person again? I don't think I should name him. No, not the person. What I mean, like what There was someone in one of the other seniors. In the group that owned us at the time. But we ended up buying ourselves back, which we haven't been happier since. Yes. But, you know, working mothers make more work than absolutely anyone. So I did take when I first got the boys, I took the adoption leave and I did that and had that time.

And then because we brought ourselves back and then because we had our own company, we could structure our working day around it. So I don't think I ever missed anything to do with any of their schooling or anything ever because I have my priorities right because I didn't want to, I didn't want to miss out on something. I didn't want to have like later in life, oh, you didn't come to that and I did this or I was, you know, I was on stage and I fell over and you didn't see it or anything. like that.

And it was actually someone else who ran a TV production company at the time that I knew who actually is a woman called Elaine Bedell. She now runs a South Bank Centre. And I remember her saying to me when I did this, she probably doesn't even remember it, that she'd done a show with Lily Savage

when she was producing a show with Lily Savage and she'd missed something from her child's life or something or a play or something like that. And she said it sort of at, It occurred to her driving home. Oh my God. Later on, I want the memories to be about my child. I don't want it to me that I, you know, was with Lily Savage. So I've always made sure that I prioritise the boys and I can honestly say I haven't missed anything. I'm so impressed with that. Which I'm really happy about. But also now I need my work for my sanity because the way we have to parent and on how we parent and how isolated we feel. feel in certain situations and my boys were they hadn't lived together before they came to us and there are a lot of difficulties that go with it so quite a lot of the time at home i don't feel like a

person i feel like i'm bottom of the pile and in and you have to be as a mother you do have to put yourself last but sometimes that last position feels such a long way behind everything else that's happening that I go to work to make me feel like a person again and to give me the strength to come home and deal with things all over again. So is it like you go to work and kind of, yeah, inhabit that other side of you. Yeah, I go to work and someone like you comes in to one of my shows and you're talking to me and part of my inner self thinks, oh my God, Sophia Lys Bexter's listening to me or thinks that I'm even vaguely interesting because at home I'm just so insignificant. Oh no. But I relate to that as well because sometimes with um especially like your so your

boys now are in their late teens yeah and I've got a couple around that age too and their world is all about themselves but also if anything that's bothering them it all comes to surface during the teenage years I actually like parenting teens but it does mean that sometimes you can be the place they put everything that you know if they're gonna if they've got any frustration anyone's upset them yeah You can be the one that they can speak to whoever they feel in that moment and you've just got a shoulder a little bit. No, you absolutely do as a mother anyway. But there is an extra level with adopting kids

because it's called attachment disorder and they constantly push back but particularly against the mother figure because they want to prove all the time that you love them, love them, love them. So it's a constant test. That makes a lot of sense and that you won't leave. that you're really committed. That makes complete sense. I mean, I do start my day very early,

much earlier than everyone else, and I do at the start of every day look at pictures of how things were. Because there have been incredibly, incredibly happy times, but they've been incredibly, incredibly unhappy times. And it feels like sometimes, but I think this is true for most parents of teens. There's nothing in the bank.

You could have done something, amazing yesterday and they're not going to thank you for it today or feel like but I mean with my kids it feels like it's like they're not going to thank you for it five minutes later there's never there's really really nothing in the bank and so and that could be really really really really hard so I think it's really important for all parents to remember really good times and really positive things so that when you are going through something difficult yeah And what about your memories of the early years then when you were first finding your feet as a four? It was, well, it was literally straight in at the deep end.

Yeah. And I think the most difficult thing, and I think this is okay to talk about, is that my boys were placed in different foster placements. And they were brought together by the social services thinking it was a good idea that they would be together. But they didn't know each other. and the eldest was almost four and it had been handled so badly his transition in that he was desperate to have a family of his own and it was not a great foster placement he was in

and he, no one had told him he was going to get his baby brother coming with him. So he was, when I first met him, it was, mommy, mommy, mommy, take me home, take me home because he was desperate to be adopted but nobody had broken it to him that he was going to have this baby brother coming home with him.

So Simon and I came up with this idea that we should, because when you first stop children, there's a 10-day process. Well, this is how it was then in 2010. And it was a 10-day process and we had to go to the foster parents' house every day and we went very early in the morning and stayed all day.

And so they would get to know you. That was torture. It was hell. because my eldest was desperate to be adopted, and so it was very difficult for him every day that we went home. The baby, because he was 14 months, and he had a very different foster parent who was very trusting. And from day one, it was so much easier with him for that.

And she allowed us to take him with us to go to the other foster placement so that we could have them together and them try to see each other. but we did we did do bonding separately with my elder child by himself so he felt very much he was important he was wanted and when it was time for them to come home we decided to pick him up the day before the younger one so he had and and when you're three nearly four 24 hours is a very long time he had a very full like that was the time yeah that he felt this was it and we took him out and got him to buy things for his younger brother's bedroom so he could and buy clothes and little things like that so that he felt like he was going to get him and bring him into the

house so it felt like it was very much that was the thing but yeah it is we've had to have separate lives a lot with them because they don't get on and uh maybe they will one day i'm sure well also i think i'm so overwhelmed by how special it is that you and Simon have... He's been incredible. Yeah, but everything that you've... I mean, I can understand that for you, that meeting with the lady approving the adoption,

it would feel a little cynical that you've shared something about your childhood that's very difficult and she's gone, oh, great, that works so well for us. But the flip of it is, as someone hearing it all now, how incredible that you do have such a complex understanding of all these different emotions. Like that's so one day they will definitely be able to say to you, thank you for all that.

Because that is exceptional. That is an incredible thing. That you can see things in this 360 way. I mean, I wouldn't wish that on you to be able to understand it that way. But that is special because for those children that have come through it and you're making a thing as well, my father-in-law, he was through the foster care system as well. Yeah, Richard's dad. I'm thinking, well, I must have a better conversation with him about his experiences as well.

But I don't know, it's just so complicated. And I think as well for people, you know, your team, your family, extended family, it's funny, isn't it? Because on the one hand, there's so many ways to become a parent. There's so many ways to become a family. So I would imagine part of you would always want, just take it as a normal or another family. But at the same time you want to go, and also we've had to deal with these other things. So that's complicated.

So navigating that as a family is also a lot to deal with, I think. I took advice before we adopted from, there's a chef called Michael Keynes, and he's a patron of an adoption society, and he's adopted. And the piece of advice that he gave me, which has been, invaluable is don't ever, ever hide anything from them, be totally out there with them. And he said, the more open you are with them, the less they want to know. And that is absolutely brilliant. Because I say to them on a regular basis and have said it right from the beginning, if you want to know anything, ask us. If you want to know anything at all, ask us and we'll tell you,

and they don't want to know. We are their parents, which is amazing to think. And it's part of me, of course, I know I'd probably be jealous if they wanted to know, if they wanted to find. I don't know, because that's only natural, but they don't because it's there for them on a plate. They really are not interested. Well, no mystery, no secrets. Yeah, no, no, nothing like that.

That's perfect. That's perfect. That's transparency. And kids can deal with that much better, actually, can't they? It's the question marks and the grey areas that can really confuse and fill imaginations. So I think demystify it in that way is very respectful. And I think also the other thing, which is what makes me very happy about how we have handled it, is that because we've always said to them, we chose you and you're more special because you're adopted.

They don't feel there's any stigma at all. And I have encountered people who have been adopted who feel like, oh, it's different or, oh, it's not the same. my kids think it's better my kids think it's you know hey it's it's really great it's really you know because it's it's not a doubt it's like we absolutely wanted them yeah i get that i completely get that and actually thinking back when you said about them sometimes not going like loads of siblings don't get on oh no exactly yeah no loads of yeah shouldn't say that's like an anomaly i could probably give you daily examples of that yeah the other thing you've you were saying about how have I managed to spin my plates, juggle my life, is that I've always

included the minute. And with Saturday Kitchen, of course, I get invited to restaurants a lot, and I have to test out restaurants a lot. I took them from day one out to eat. And I feel as a parent, if you're paying, you've got the right to have your kids in that restaurant and to have the same. I don't believe in kids' menus. And I don't believe in kids menus anywhere. I won't ever let my look at that. They've, you know, it's they eat what we eat and they always have done. And I've had arguments with, with air stewards on planes saying, you didn't order from the children's menu. I go, no, because I'm paying the same for their seat. They can have the same. I even once on British Airways had them come around and say to, they said, oh, to my eldest, what do you want

he? So I'd like the salmon, please. And this one is about six or something. And she said, oh, well, I've only got one of those left. Can we not save it for an adult? And I went, no. You can't save it for an adult. He wants the salmon. He's paid the same for the seat. Too right. Give him the salmon. Wow, they must have amazing taste buds if they were eating that in the little. I'm very proud. I'm very so very proud of my eldest. I'm very proud of both of them because they've both found their thing that they want to do. They've both found their passion. And I feel very even more proud because they're so closely related to my passions. which is really fantastic, which wouldn't necessarily be the case, which is just great. But my oldest, his placement, I think this is okay to say. His placement was very difficult. And when he came to me almost for the weight of a healthy one-year-old, and he had very restricted eating, he really only liked bread and butter. But I taught him to eat by teaching him to cook.

And he's now going to be a chef, which is amazing. Oh, my word. He's got an amazing apprenticeship with an amazing chef and he's on a course. You got some contacts in that much. I have got some contacts. Yes, it is. Yeah, I've got some contacts. Also, how glorious.

How glorious that all those things he was exposed to have obviously got this really positive association. And he's like, I want to keep. Oh, that's so incredible. Well, I came up with this thing. Also, that's kind of the dream. I really went hoping one of mine. I'd love her cook. Yeah.

A hairdresser would be helpful. Maybe some kind of plumbing or electrician. Plumbing. Oh, that would be fantastic. Yeah, that kind of thing. Useful trades, but also someone to cook, please. I came out with this thing, though, to teach him how to make him eat things, is that I started the thing where you have to taste everything.

And because I came up with this idea that, okay, everything in life is an individual. You're an individual, your brother's an individual. You can't say you don't like all boys because you're very different to your brother, and you don't like your brother. but you can say you don't like this boy or you don't like that boy if you've really experienced or tried that boy. So think about the same with the carrot. There's two carrots that have grown up side by side,

but in different pieces of ground. So you can't say you don't like all carrots, but you can say, I don't like this carrot because I've tasted it. So I made him literally taste everything. And down to peas, all peas. They're everybody and everything is an individual. And you have denied that individuals right for what they've been born for. what they're living for. So I started off that he had to just lick things and then he got really bored

and then it was like you had to have a nibble and then he got so bored of me doing it that you just eat it. And then after... This is such good teaching. Yeah. And then after not very long, he then ate absolutely everything. And one of my proudest, when I knew, yes, I've got a foodie, is because what I used to do this, the Friday pickup from school at 3.30 and we'd go, we'd walk home across the common and go past. We've got very lovely butchers. And we go in and on a Friday and like choose what we're going to have. And Gary, he's Gary from Moans. And he's just very lovely part of our lives and his part of Saturday kitchen as well.

And he'd say, okay, what are we having today? And my son looked at rabbits hanging up and he said, oh, I think, and this is when he was six. Oh, I think we'll have rabbit. And so he says to him, which rabbit would you like? And he said, well, I'll think I'll have that one because that one looks happy and happy meat tastes better. I just thought, okay, yeah, I've got a foodie. This is it. That's incredible.

I don't even know if my kid would recognize what a youngest would recognize what a rabbit looks like hanging up on there. Oh, they would. Did it look just like a rabbit? Okay, fine. No skin. Yeah, it wouldn't be difficult. I mean, we're no strangers to the butcher, but I don't know if he's a rabbit. But it's so satisfying watching them eat properly, isn't it?

Oh, good, yeah. It's just like, why are we so hardwired to love seeing our kids enjoy food? But it's also so much fun cooking with them. Yes. And it's so much fun getting things messy. And I've never been precious about my kitchen or anything like that. And it's like, okay, that's it. And other people's kids used to come around on play dates and we cook and do things like that, which is really great.

That sounds so good. And do they, do you have conversations with them about the way the entertainment is going? Yeah, absolutely. That's pretty fascinating, isn't it? Well, I've taken them into work right from the very, very beginning. and my youngest started working with the sound department because he was fascinated by sound from when he was about seven

and he was marking up celebrities and things like this because it was just he's really, really, really fascinated by the technical side of things and he's got a theatre scholarship for school which I'm really, really, really proud of so he's found his way.

Didn't you also do drama as well? Yeah, I did drama and theatre arts at Birmingham University. There you go. It's all coming full circle. Yeah, yeah. So he's got his thing that way too. And what about the way they consume TV?

And because I do find that interesting with my elder boys to see how, you know, like when I talked to them about what my mum did with Blue Peter back in the 80s, it just sounds alien to them. Well, it's mind-blowing that there's that point in to view that it was like, I find it really hard now because I don't know who the Blue Peter presenters are. I know. And it's really sad. It is sad.

In your mum's day, it was national status straight away. It's just like incredible. Every generation. Yeah. So she had no auto cue, so she would learn the scripts and then do live TV, which I think is so impressive. But also, I don't even know if the kids would even think about that sort of thing. First them, you know, they all want to be YouTubers. But YouTubeers is just the TV presenters of their generation, isn't it?

That's where they're getting the information. But I wonder if it must kind of, that part of your brain that's doing your innovations must be thinking, oh this is interesting. I think one of the most frustrating things about the way telly and things like that are going is that there used to be amazing appointments to view and there's so few of those now

and when my kids were younger we tried so hard to find things that we would all watch together and movies and things that we'd all watch together it's practically impossible now really to find things that you can all watch together and then if they are watching with you I'm sure yours are exactly the same

every parent everywhere they just want to be on another day device doing something else and I'm going concentrate do that do that to be honest and when I'm watching tell that's usually me I always like to do two things at once yeah yeah so actually we did all watch traitors together there were been a couple

of things that crossed over but you're right it's not it's not a great deal in the same way that kind of yeah those lovely like Saturday night all sat on the sofa kind of thing I don't think we really no we did used to have that we did did used to have that with things but yeah maybe films still but it's all moving at a pace Well, before you, I mean, thank you so much for sharing so much

And I know there'll be people listening for whom this has resonated hugely So I really can't thank you enough for trusting me with your story Well, hopefully it's helpful and empowering because I think the biggest thing The biggest message I try to give, I've got majority of women working with me and always have had And the biggest message I try to give people is children, if you've got children, that's it. They have to come first. And that's, it's hard. And it's hard as an employer, of course.

But it is important you come with those moments. But also, if you've got a family, just do everything with them and that they're there. Because that the time that you have is so brief, actually. So if there are, you know, a choice between you could go out. somewhere where you can't take your kids or somewhere where you can take your kids, just take your kids. But also, you can take your kids anywhere. It's all about attitude and things like that. And yes, be respectful of other people. And what we've always done is we've always spoken to our kids. And it really frustrates me now if I'm in a restaurant and people park their kids with iPads and they're not

talking to them. And you think, well, how do you expect them to have a conversation? How do you expect them to know about food or to in food is such a brilliant coming together and and things like that so it's easier to spin plates and for your kids to feel like you're more part of your life if you include them that is so wise and and actually just thinking about you in your workplace if if you've come from a childhood where you felt you had so many things things to resolve. How do you deal with the TV world and find your resilience within that? I don't. I've got a very, I have a, Michael is healers. I want everyone to like me and of course everyone doesn't like you. And I'm very insecure in a lot of ways, but I'm very, very, very lucky

that I met my husband and business partner when I was 25 and he, he's still, It's amazing. Yes, it is amazing. He's still the person who I care about his opinion more than anyone's. If he thinks I look horrible, I don't want to wear that dress. Even down to that point of thing, it's really frustrating. Yes, we have very, very, very different lives now. I think a lot of it as well is we accepted that we both really like doing completely different things.

So we don't try and make the other one do those things. because it made us both miserable when we tried to do that. Yeah. And but he supports me totally in what I want to do. And like now with between the covers and doing live, and he's saying, no, do it. Just, you know, get on stage and do it because do you really want to regret

and you've got this chance again to do that. And the first time round, because when I was a presenter the first time round, you weren't as a woman allowed to be a producer and a presenter or anything. You had to choose which box you wanted to be in. And I started my own production company. And it was like, oh, which are you today?

And I remember going to three auditions. And they'd say, I literally had producers saying to me, so who are you today then? What is this? And I decided, I mean, at the time, there were far few less jobs for presenters. And I didn't want to be out of work a lot of the time. So I decided, okay, I can write and I can produce.

And I'm going to do that. So I took a step back. But always part of me, is like, God, I love it. I really, really, really love it. So to have this chance again with the resurgence of live and then to have people like Ruth Jones and Stephen Mangan and Joe Brands saying to me, Amanda, you can do this, get on stage and with me.

And they have a ball. And Ruth and David and Joe have all said to me, we love doing it with you because I don't, I have a producer's head on it all the time in that I'm keeping it right and keeping the time on. I'm not like a typical, I'm not like, I'm not doing it like a presenter. I'm not leading the last laugh. I'm not, I'm, I see my role as host is to get the best out of them.

Yeah, you've got an overview. Yeah. And they, and Stephen particularly says, oh, it's great because I can just go anywhere. I know you can bring me back. And it's really, and that's really good fun. And that's, and so it feels like a team. And it, it's, um, and you know, it's really, it is hard. because of course it would be easier to get exposure for stuff sometimes if you say okay the star leading this blah blah blah blah blah but it's we don't need that and we can keep the costs down and i can just keep the cost down yeah i can produce it and do it and do it on stage but also it's a different way of doing things because particularly as well but programming it is all about conversation and my role is to keep that conversation going not to come out of the last joke i mean you said it's an achilles heel that you're you know you're you know you're

want people to like you, but actually maybe it's been one of your greatest strengths because it's led to such long relationships and things running from people wanting to keep working and being engaged with it. I think it's a flip of that. I think that is the truth. I mean, the thing is as well, I do something as a producer that no one else does. I know and it's a, and new people who come into the company. There's a couple of things. There's new things that people are coming to the company are like, whoa, what is this? How is this? And you know, when you come to a cactus production, everyone has a name badge. And I, I think that's because you come in somewhere and you meet 11 people within two minutes.

And it's so much nice to be able to say, hey, Mel, rather than, excuse me, sound woman or that kind of thing. And that's really empowering. And people when they first come in are like, oh, I'm too cool to do that. But then when someone like Tom Hanks has said, hello, Sophie, you think, I don't care. He said my name. I think the world should wear name badges. I would be voting. Oh, God.

I hate going to events now and there isn't a name badge because I'm so bad with names. Me too. And sometimes you say you get given like seven names at the beginning. You don't know how much you're going to need it. I know people say, oh, do those little games to associate. Oh, that doesn't work. Really can't do that. I can't, you know, I don't know anyone's name.

You know, and the other thing I do, which everybody really likes, is at the start of every production day, whatever the production, I make every single person come into the studio. And that includes our washer-upper Janet on Tustard Kitchen, who's very important. I won't start this until she comes in. And I make everybody come in. and stand in a great big circle

and it's people in front of the camera, people behind the camera and everything. And I say, okay, everybody, take a look around, make sure you can see everybody's faces because every single person in this room is as important as everybody else. We are all cogs in the wheels of entertainment

and if we have fun making it, they'll have fun watching it. And then I'll tell them all, what's in the show, what's happening that day. Perfect. And then at the end of everything, I always say, well, if we have fun making it, they'll have fun watching it.

it so let's have some fun and everybody feels like and it's very hard for someone in front of the camera then to be mean to someone behind the camera after you've done that no it's all for one and one for all and also the have fun thing is super important um i'd like to end on this necklace if i may because while we've been talking this beautiful silver necklace with a very large hard i mean this is a necklace and a half really isn't that this is this is more of a statement of intent an emblem. My husband bought it for me and it's by a designer and I can't remember the designer but yeah. So what, tell me about this heart necklace because when you brought it, you brought it when you knew what we were talking about today. Yeah. Well, when you adopt children, you're advised

the first few foot meetings and the first time and maybe as long as possible to wear the same clothes so that they recognize you and its familiarity and that kind of thing. But my husband had bought me this lovely heart necklace which is a really big heart. It's huge, yeah. Lovely. And I wore that from day one and I wore it every day for the first few months I had them because I said to my boys, and I think I said at the start that they weren't born in my tummy, they were born in my heart. And I've got wonderful images of my baby clutching the heart and just being there or going to sleep on me holding this metal heart and it's very special. I'm really glad you had it. It was very fitting to have it on the table for our whole chat because I think it sums up so much. It's symbolic and it's perfect, just like your family.

Oh, well, thank you, Sophia Lysbxt, to the best person in the world I know at Spinning Place. Oh, I don't know about that. No, I'm just so, I was already impressed with you, but like, but now you've shared even more. I'm even more, yeah, in awe of what you've achieved both in terms of, you know, your professional, live raising, I mean, when you were talking about, you know, your, your path to parenthood, I think part of as well what was making me so emotional is when I knew I was seeing you today, I was looking last night through pictures online and your Instagram and there's some really sweet images of your boys either cooking in the kitchen or playing or there's one was, one of them's in the garden throwing a snowball and I just, it's just really moving that that is where it ends up. That's really special. So cheers to the here and now.

beautiful necklace and your lovely conversation. Thank you. Thank you. It is hard to put into words how well firstly how privileged I felt to be set opposite Amanda while she was being so open and showing such strength and secondly my admiration for her has only gone up I I've always liked the way she conducts herself with work. She's always so warm and welcoming and engaged, which I have to say, and TV doesn't always happen. You normally just turn up, you've got your dressing room you leave, but Amanda, over the years, has always made it a much more personal experience,

which is really special and rare. But to have created this family unit that's got such strength, and to have helped our boys really become all that they were meant to be. Like, I mean, that is excellent motherhood, isn't it? And it was so special to me that we talked with this beautiful silver necklace in the middle of us with this, I don't know, the heart would probably be the size of my palm almost. And it was really symbolic. And I think the fact that Amanda had slipped it into her handbag to bring to my house to show me.

me was indicative of how she intended to, you know, explain and celebrate and explore her story. So I celebrate her parenthood, I should say, and what she's done with her work. And actually, herself. Also shout out to Lorna, who sounds like exactly what you're hoping for in a therapist, someone who can really find a sense of peace and resolve with what's gone before and build a life. It doesn't mean you're beholden to it. Yeah, incredible, really. Incredible all round and so moving.

It's funny, I've done so many of these conversations now. What is that? 160, 170 conversations. And it's just never really lost on me that it's an exceptional space to hold with someone. But especially when it's such an honest, open conversation like that, it can only enrich, empower, help people.

Conversation is so important, isn't it? But for me, it's given me so, so much. And I would say that this conversation ranks among my favourite I've ever done. So thank you so much, Amanda. And I know it also meant a lot to Claire Jones, producer, who was sat with us making her lovely notes and trying to cry quietly like I did, hopefully, because it was so moving.

Anyway, there's that for this series. A couple of days ago I went on Instagram and I asked you for suggestions for guests. And why didn't I do that sooner? It was bloody brilliant, so successful. Loads and loads and loads of ideas. Some truly excellent ones. A couple of people who clearly not really listened to anything

but not to suggesting guests I've already had. That's fine. That's fine. It's been going for a while. But honestly, some brilliant ideas. So I've been following all of that up. And I'm recording actually the first one for the next series tomorrow. It's already shaping up. Well, you know, I like to find some unexpected tales,

some interesting careers, some extraordinary examples of working women. Happened to be mothers, all of that, you know. And listen, I'll make you a promise an hour. Next series, I'll re-record the intro, so I have the correct ages of my children. I mean, it's only taking me five years to get around to it. So listen, in the meantime, shout out to Richard for doing my brilliant editing to producer Claire. They're both Joneses, don't you know? No relation.

Thank you to you for lending me your ears. Thanks to all my guests this series. It's been a lovely mixture from ballroom dancers to prime ministers to TV producers to mudlarkers. So much fun. And I think I will be back in January. now because we're in the middle of November and I need to get my things in order. So have an amazing Christmas. I've got one last song being released from Perimenop, which is a song called Time,

which is so pretty. It's kind of the heart of the record really. And we've done a little bit of a more seasonal version, especially for Christmas, which I've never done before, but I was singing it on stage in Berlin, actually, when I was thinking, wow, the sentiment of this song really is, what Christmas is about. It's not about presents and things. It's about spending time with people. So, you know, we thought,

let's get a little festive. All right, have a lovely rest of the year. I'll see you with a new one. That's a lot of the level all right.