Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 174: Kelly Rutherford

Episode Date: February 2, 2026

Kelly Rutherford is an American actress probably best known for her starring role in 7 series of Gossip Girl (2007-2012).Kelly's instagram is the most intentional and curated grid I have ever seen, with beautiful quotes interspersed with stylish selfies, many of which are taken in an elevator. It’s very beautiful and peaceful. Kelly has a son Hermes aged 19 and a daughter Helena aged 16, who were subject to a custody battle which their father won. This meant that they have grown up mostly in Monaco where he lives, and where Kelly has therefore spent most of her time, so as to be able to see the children.Kelly has a calm and philosphical air, and we talked about how the greatest gift you can give your children is to be happy. She also said that nothing matters more to her than the love of her children.We also talked about our shared joy of shopping in vintage clothes shops... a quick route to happiness for us both.Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sophia Lestexter and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women, who also happen to be mothers, about how they make it all work. I'm a singer and I've released eight albums in between having my five sons, age between seven years old and nearly 22, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a little bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates. I know it's really frequent that I start off the podcast introduction with a little note about the weather. But A and British is literally unprogrammed to do that. And B, I often speak to you on my way home from school because it's the bit of the day

where I can kind of have a couple of seconds to myself and I often think about things as I walk home. and I think, ah, I would like to speak to you. And obviously, while I speak to you, I am experiencing the weather. Today I'm experiencing weather I'm not into. This is part report, part complaint. It's cold. It's wet. It's windy.

None of these things are good things. And I had to choose quickly this morning in between a waterproof coat or a waterproof coat or a warm coat, because my warm coat isn't waterproof. And I went for the waterproof, so now I'm obviously freezing. So yeah, just not really feeling that. Yes, I do appreciate that all things considered. It's not a bad thing to be complaining about, as in, I should just get out on with it.

I just want to get out my system because no one's around, just you and me. So there you go. But actually, okay, now you're going to really, if you're already thinking this woman is moaning about nothing, it's going to get worse. Because tomorrow night I'm flying to Australia. It's like 26 degrees. So I think you can put this down to a little middle of the week, grumpy moment, actually. And actually, you know what, I think a little bit of pre-travel tension. I don't know if you get like that.

I don't know if you find when you're about to go away. It can actually be family holidays. It doesn't have to be just for work trips, but particularly before I go well. For work trips, it tends to get a bit tense because you're trying to prep things and you sort of can't really.

I feel bad for the house. I feel like I've got this simple cloud of busyness moving up, you know, up the ramp to jumping off, which is leaving to go to the airport. So it's past and stuff places. I'm trying to cram in appointments and sort things for I go. I'm going to miss a birthday.

My second one, he's having his 17th birthday, and I'll be away for that. He's not pressed feet with me. I hate missing birthdays. So anyway, sorry, let's probably down to that. Anyway, never mind all that. I hope your week is good. What did you think of Eliza Feldby last week?

It's funny. It's really, we had that conversation, and it's really changed the word. thinking about the future. And one of the things that we did, and I can't remember if I mentioned this to you last week or not, but thanks to the conversations that emerged from the podcast. So thinking ahead to, you know, when my parents get older, Rich's parents get older, we booked in to have Riches folks had a complete declutter in their house

because they had a lot of stuff that they were holding on to that they didn't really need. or use or enjoy, but also I wanted them to really enjoy and feel lighter in the space they're in their home. So that's been happening. And I guess that's a little bit crossover with what Eliza was saying about looking after your parents as they get older and how people tend to live longer these days. So we're sort of paving the way for us and for them, I think. Anyway, I digress. this week's guest. So about, oh golly, it's been coming up for two years ago now. I had a very funny 24 hours.

And I think I'm going to repeat myself because I'm pretty sure I said this to Kelly as well. But I had to, I didn't have to, I was invited to come and sing at very fancy do. I do all kinds of gigs. Sometimes they are fancy plants. And that was what was happening on this occasion. Venice, I mean already pretty dreamy. And I was singing at the, it was like a jewellery, jewelry launch, diamonds, essentially, I think. Actually, I don't know, maybe all kinds of jewelry.

Oh, sorry, that's a terrible description of my night. Essentially, it was a jewelry firm and they were celebrating their new collection and I sang for about 20 minutes half an hour inside this beautiful building in Venice. and while I was on stage sometimes when you sing at what they might call a corporate event they can be a little bit more dry you know people are not necessarily there to enjoy

a gig that they're necessarily want to dance so you know I'm quite chilled but I also like a little bit of interaction because it kind of loosens things up so I that's funny someone's put a sign of here have you seen this Zebra?

Oh, it's a little soft toy called Bowie. Oh, I haven't seen that zebra. That's kind of sad. Someone's soft toy. Sorry, that was a real. I wasn't expecting to see that sign. Before I wait, have you seen the zebra? I was like, so I'm having a laugh.

Anyway, sorry, yes, where was I? So anyway, as I was on stage, I can see a lady holding up her phone with what looked like a teenage girl on the phone. at high in like a FaceTime and I was like oh that's fun the daughter's having fun so I sort of beckon the lady over picked up her phone and sang to her daughter when I was on stage and the girl at home was like smiling away at me and made me feel good and lifted up my spirits and it was fun anyway I didn't clock at first that the lady who's phone I was holding was the actress

Kelly Rutherford so afterwards Kelly came up to me and said oh that was my daughter he was singing to and we just got chatting and I just thought she was so lovely she's got that lovely calm grounded wise sort of energy around her you know when you just automatically feel very comfortable and you have a nice chat and it's just yeah just I just really liked her I liked her vibe and so we started following each other on Instagram and we kind of kept in touch and she's been very sweetly

supportive and I really like where she's coming from in life and the more I uncovered about her, especially in prep for talking to her for the podcast, the more fascinating and strong and smart she became to me because I could see what she'd experienced

and what she's learned from it. Kelly is an actress first and foremost and she has two children they are now in their late teens boy and the girl Helena and Hermes and she's experienced something that I can't really imagine actually

which is that when she separated from their father thus began protracted and fairly public custody batter which eventually resulted in the father winning and changing the course of Felly's life the extent where she moved to Monaco

to be near her children and to see him the most as she could. And of course she did not choose for this to be public but as I said to her during her chat I didn't know how to talk to her about her life and then just sort of skip over that bit because it was so public and I thought what does that feel like? What does it feel like to go through that? and have it be part of the public domain when you're going through something where you don't really have a map and it's a lot of emotions.

And I honestly think, firstly, what comes across in Spade is Kelly's absolute commitment to her children and the philosophies that have helped her through and have to navigate the complexity of that situation. So my right hand is absolutely frozen and I'm ready to. to stop talking and listen back to this lovely conversation. Record, isn't it just before Christmas? I don't think we talk about Christmas. But it is a really good chat, and you're going to know just what I mean about this calm wisdom. It's a really nice spirit.

It's a nice mood that's about to be cast around you. Sorry for a waffling on quite so much, but I'll hound you over to a lot more intelligent discourse. Okay. All right, see you know, Aziz. So, I think this is Bonnie with the first time we properly meet, actually. Because I was trying to explain to Claire how we came to know each other. And it's quite a wild one, really.

I've always been lucky enough to have quite a diverse range of work that I get up to. And last year I found myself in Venice, a very glamorous night singing. And you were a guest at this beautiful event, which was celebrating, I think, the launch of of a new range of jewelry? Yeah, show me. It was true me. Right. I, the next day, just so you know,

I had to leave the beautiful world of Venice, obviously get the gondola to the airport, where I flew home to go to a place called Plymouth. Do you know where Plymouth is? No. It's probably what you're imagining. It's very sweet. It's coastal.

My uncle lives there, so lots of good stuff about Plymouth. However, on this particular day, even though it was a festival called something like Summer Fun Day, it was pouring with sideways rain. They nearly cooled off our show. And all I was thinking is, how did I start in the day in Venice for breakfast and Plymouth for supper and the rain?

But in the glamour of the Venetian world, sometimes those events can be quite dry when you're on stage and you're singing and you're thinking, I'm going to feel it and try and make people feel relaxed. But, you know, it's quite, everybody's dressed up. It's quite glamorous. us and I noticed that you had your daughter on face. I don't know it's your daughter, but I could see a young girl on FaceTime, and I thought

I'm going to sing to her for a little bit. It's so sweet. I didn't even realize it was your daughter. It's just so nice. Yeah, she was having a sleepover with her friend, Caitlin. And I was like, you'll never guess who is singing on stage. And she's like, Mom, I want to see. I was like, okay.

So I turned it around and everybody was kind of standing up enjoying it. And you were so sweet. I guess you, yeah, you saw me holding up the phone. and you took the phone and started singing to them. You, like, made their world. It was so sweet. Well, please pass back. It really helped me as well.

It was really nice. It's playful. It was nice to see them. No, and as a mom, you're like, oh, that was such a good moment for me as a mom. Major points, you know. Well, same here. And I think, yeah. So how old?

I know your son is now 19. Is she 16? She's 16 now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So do you feel like you're kind of in a new chapter with them now that they're at this later stage of teen years? It's quite significant, I think. It is. I took a road.

trip with my daughter, I think it was two summers ago, and we went from Monaco to Rome, and at one point I remember sitting in the hotel room and she was sort of under the covers looking at TikTok, I'm sure. And she said, Mom, it's time for you to get back to work. She said, we're good.

And it was like a Nancy Myers movie. It was out of nowhere. I looked at her and I said, I think I'm going to go upstairs and have an apparel spritz now. Like, I don't even know what in the world where it came from. Yeah. It was like, and she's so been that oracle along the way. I remember when she was super young and I was traveling a lot and she said,

Mom, you need a puppy. You need to get a puppy. And I was like, and she was like maybe eight or nine. And she was so right. Like I needed a little puppy. She's, she's, anyway, so these are the moments that you think, okay, I'm giving permission now in a way because you still hold on. I mean, I was holding on. Do you know what I mean? And waiting. Is it okay? Is it not okay? because of also what we do. You know, it's very, sometimes you can be home for a long time and then other times you're, you know, away. So it was a good, I just kind of wait for those.

I'm a bit blown away, actually. Messages. I think that's incredible. I think it's so, she sounds like a very emotionally sensitive person. Because it takes a lot to be able to see your parent as a person outside of that role, especially at 16. I mean, my word, I definitely wasn't giving my mom permission to, I mean, I think that way. I probably would have said you can stop now and I kind of, please stop checking what time I come in from a club kind of away.

But not in a, I understand that you need to spread your wings a little bit. Yeah. Or even just have permission to, I don't know. I'm trying to think what she would have meant by that, just saying we're okay, I suppose. Yeah, I think she knows that I was very, you know, I think, and like we were just talking about, I think there's always this like mom guilt when you work or you're away or, you know, you have to have time to focus on these things, even though, you know, all I ever wanted was to be a mom. That was like, you know, everything else is just, okay, partly practical, partly creative, you know, just an expression, right? So, yeah, so I think it was just she was realizing that I had kind of slowed down a bit and was like, okay, I just want to be with them.

And they were thinking, mom, it's okay. Like, you know, go have fun, go enjoy, go, you know, which is such a beautiful thing that your kids, like you said, can see you in that way. Absolutely. Can want you to have a relationship, can want you to get back to work, can want you to have a full life. I think it's important for them. Yeah, I would agree with that. It helps them. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, from where I'm sitting, you already have a very full life. So I don't know what you're going to talk is about it's next to. I don't either. I haven't gotten those orders yet. I haven't gotten that. Am I not doing enough? Have you seen my Wikipedia? I'm waiting. I'm like, what does she want me to do? I think next is like get married and move to

Tuscany, you know, have a house. She knows I want like a house with like lots of animals and, you know, that was probably, that's probably the next phase. What animals do you have currently? I have two dachshunds. Sweet. Yes, cappuccina and Twombly and they're very sweet. And what has brought you to London on this trip? Are you working here at the moment? Well, my daughter's in school now. So she's studying and, um, So I'm here, you know, with her, hanging out with her a bit. Nice. Yeah.

And what exciting things have you got going on at the moment? If you can start with the here and now, that's always nice to hear about. Exactly. What, oh, my God, I'm just, you know, kind of doing a lot of the same things, doing campaigns and the fashion things. And it's really freed me up to be able to travel and, again, be with my kids. So I love it. And I've always loved fashion. I don't know how it kind of, I think it was.

And this, you know, what we're talking about earlier, it was just, you know, that time during 2020 when we all were like, okay, you still want to be creative, you still want to find things to do. You may not be able to do what you normally do. But, and that's how it kind of, I got involved with this girl who was doing a platform and asked me to help her bring on some brands and I was posting some things. So I think it just kind of. And these were like smaller independent brands initially, were they? Yeah, yeah. The idea was to do a platform. form for global brands and emerging brands. So I just went on the path of discovery and found all these beautiful. And you think about fashion. If you look, you know, you go to the museum, you see

fashion. If you watch film, you see fashion throughout history. In our history books, it's, it's so a part of how we represent ourselves throughout history. Or even, I'm sure, for you on stage, how you feel, you know, it makes you feel a certain way. It's energy. Even, you know, if you walk into a vintage store, how you feel versus if you walk and then buy something new and how things, whether it's clothes or this table or whatever, it carries energy. I totally agree with you. I mean, you had me at vintage shop. You had me at vintage shop.

Right? Do you like vintage? It makes my heartbeat faster. In fact, the other, when I'm on tour, that's what I do. I travel and I'll wake up in a new city and I'll be like, whereas vintage shops near me and I will spend my day trawling, well, I love it. A little too much. Too much, I know.

It's good, though. It's a passion. It's beautiful. And I'm not talking high end here. I like things that have got stories attached. For me, it's about that, and I feel like I'm a custodian of something for a little while. And I'll try and show it some fun, and then it can go back into the world and go on to its next owner. And I love the fact that you can basically find your character because they're not being dictated.

I mean, there will be fashion elements to it because you might have seen, oh, I reckon. and now this is in vogue, so I'm going to go back to that source. But you're also taking yourself out of that thing of, I had a brief dalliance with the more designer things when I first had my first full flush of success on my first album. And suddenly, you know, people are inviting you to, you know, London Fashion Week. And I just, I couldn't really do it. It didn't feel like me.

And I couldn't really carry it off. And I felt that the things were wearing me a bit. So I think for me, vintage allows me to just not worry. It takes you out of all of that. You're just having your conversation with your own clothes and your own self, really. Yeah, and you also are bringing, yeah, it's energy. It's kind of what you resonate with, you know. I mean, vintage is so cool.

I mean, you can really walk into a venture store and feel all the stories that are there. I mean, you look at one of these dresses and you're like, who was the woman that wore this? And what was her life like? And I think that's part of as an artist, what, what we love about it is, is I want to step into that role or this makes me feel a certain way. Or there's certain smells or certain, yeah, for sure. Vintage is beautiful. Even those, I love those like old vintage diamonds and things and stones and jewelry.

It's so beautiful. Yes, that's really lovely. I think as well, you know, we're both singing from the same song sheet when it comes to the significance of what you wear and how it makes you feel. And when I was looking through your Instagram, I have to say, hands down, the most beautiful Instagram I've ever seen. It's so intentional and it was so clear that this is all coming from you, which I think is gorgeous. And so for people that haven't seen, you've got what's the most sort of frequent is shots of you in this lift, an elevator, sorry, which I understand is in Monaco, is that right? and then quotations.

And the more I looked, I actually found it really moving because so many of your quotations are focused on love and a sense of expanding self and sort of trying to make yourself feel limitless but also trusting in the process. If you live your life in a way that has meaning to you that appreciates what's around you at that time, you will not be looking further than that for happiness or something unobtainable.

Would that sound fair? Oh my gosh, that was incredible. What you just said, that's so beautiful. But there is so many quotes about, yeah, I think the one I saw this week was, is it Kurt Vonnegut about their everyday saints, they're the people acting decently in an indecent society. It's about being a good humanitarian, really, a good member of, whoever we're sharing this planet with at this pleasant moment.

It's actually quite humanist. I don't know if that's something that's part of the world. Yeah, I really, I think that's, I really believe in humanity, right? And I think it's, it's, yeah, and the connection to it. I think we're distracted by so many things. And when we come back to our humanity, everything makes sense. It makes more sense, right? And when we see each other through the eyes of love, which isn't always easy,

because it also requires us to see ourselves through the eyes of love, you know, which is, again, you know, unless that was reflected to you growing up or unless you found it somehow, it needs to be sort of recognized because it's the most important thing is to, and, you know, people talk about self-love, but I almost think it's just seeing the preciousness of yourself. Yeah. You know, it's like we're each preciousness. in our own way. We're each the child of some mother who gave birth to us who really loved us and had her own complicated story or our father had his own complicated stories. So it's really just seeing,

I think a lot when I became a mother too. I thought, my God, I just started seeing everyone as somebody's child, even the grownups. Yeah, that's quite powerful, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Wow, each one in, they were raised in a certain way under certain circumstances and they've, you know, somehow survived that, whether it was good or bad or whatever it was. I'm sure everyone had good intentions. So I think we all are in this place of managing, you know, what we were born into and also the society and our times. Yes, absolutely. And I think also, I mean, what I'm hearing as well is something that can really prepare you for, you know, as you get old. You know, as you get older and new chapters of your life because I think that I don't know if I'm putting this

clumsily but almost like walking and step with yourself like seeing yourself for your floors for your good parts can really allow you um you because there's so many benefits in that for as you get older being able to look at yourself in the mirror or have your friendships or whatever however those roots lie whatever choices you make that they really um you're not kind of almost like how can I put this? You're just not kind of masking to yourself an element so that you can really say

oh yes I did screw up there or no that was intentional or just self-awareness I suppose I think sometimes when people get older they haven't really done that as much and then it can flip bodies are clever minds are clever it will come to the surface

if you're not keeping an eye on being realistic about the life you've led and what matters to you I think I know it sounds a bit Nambi Pambi but it's something I think I think about quite a lot because I was speaking to someone not long ago, someone I know really well, someone in their 70s and he was saying, I've always had a problem with authority and now I'm in this age and I don't know how to really navigate that because I've always kicked against

it and I was thinking, you've got to walk in step with yourself. What did you think? You weren't going to reach those birthdays? You've got to have a self-awareness, I suppose. And the concentric circles, the impact you have on other people's lives. Well, it's our greatest contribution to society is to be self-aware and to work on ourselves. You know what I mean? If you want to call it that, it's kind of like just reflecting on, it's also just looking at your life and saying, why do I have an aversion to this? Yeah. You know, is it because of something in my childhood that I go, okay?

And then you look further and you think, oh, well, my parent had that because of this. And then you realize it's just kind of a domino effect of energy that you're carrying. And so, you know, to think of what legacy we want to leave. And, you know, when you think of legacy, it's really the energy you want to leave on the planet. It's really energetics. It's individual energetics and the frequency that you carry within you, you know, and you can feel it. We feel all these things go through our bodies and emotions and things. So it's how do you purify?

in a way, or lack of a better word. Yeah, have a good impact. Those, those energies so that you're a clear channel. Yeah. You know, that you're a clear channel for expression, that it's not, you're not up against this or up, you're not up against anything anymore. Yeah, because there's nothing more dangerous than harboring those emotions and carrying that negative around with you.

Not that long ago, I had someone, because I was thinking about, I totally agree with what you're saying, but I was thinking sometimes, in the sense, internet can be quite odd with some of that stuff. Oh my God. It's its own frequency. That's for sure. I know. There was not that long ago.

Someone had put, you know, you're always supposed to pretend, aren't you? That you don't read anything that put people online? But obviously, the temptation to see what people say about you when you're not in the room is like pretty fascinating. Especially if you're also the sort of person who gets up on stage and says, do you like me? Yeah. So not that long ago I saw someone had put a comment, obviously not meant for me to see. And it was something to do with my kids, which obviously is going to make me. you know, Mother Tiger.

And I wrote this really quite long response, but not mean. I said, you know, I'm supposed to pretend I haven't seen this. You're not intending me to see it. However, here we are. I've seen it. You wrote it. And for you, you have to really be, are you okay with the fact that you're the sort of person, goes online, makes a comment about someone else's kids, and then goes about your day.

I said, look underneath your comment. There's all these other people who have said, you can't say, that. So you've affected all those other people. They've taken time out of their day to interact with your negative comment. Maybe you're completely fine with this, but maybe, just maybe, there's a part of you that thinks, I don't really want to be that person today. I don't want to put that out there and cause this concentric circles, all these little ripples out from that drop. Anyway, I was quite pleased with it all. Told a friend, and I was like, I felt better. I did. Go on angry. I was just trying to reason. Like, what are you doing? Anyway, so I thought I'm going to go back online

and I'm just going to screenshot it just in case I need it again. They blam and deleted it. They deleted their comment, which I guess is what you want, because you're like, great. I was like, really could have done with that little, I was just in the right frame of mind

to put it in the sun where I was like, no, I can't remember anything I said. But anyway, the point of the story is that I think, I think that version of just all those little, as you say, the legacy, if you can just, what is the point? To leave the world a tiny bit better than you found it is really like, if you can do that,

that and the love, the love you leave. I remember feeling that overwhelming at my grandpa's funeral. Just that is the meaning of life. Who you loved, who loves you. It's true. It's true. I mean, the rest of it is fun too. But yeah, come on. It's all fun. Anyway, back to the corrals. But ultimately, yeah, I mean, that's it. But I know what you mean about all these comments and we're living in a time where people, you know, everyone has an opinion, everyone has a comment. And again, that goes back to sort of self-reflection of that person. Do you know what I mean? And obviously, you know, you think, okay, you almost want to send them love and say, well, this is how you're choosing to spend your time. And it's what we realize is that, you know, the more we just heal ourselves, again, we don't, we're spending a lot of time with all that stuff.

And that's what's crazy when you could be loving and you could be supportive. And again, it's a lot of society has been teaching us this whole thing, you know what I mean? It's kind of this. It's in movies. It's in music. It's this kind of energy of that. So it's like, how do we elevate that energy by not giving it energy? Yeah, by not giving that space.

The thing is not to give it energy. I saw a Bukowski poem actually about that, and I'm trying to remember exactly, but it's something to do with, there are some people who get so angry and they will look for the thing in the day to make them angry. Don't they realize there's so little time, and all that time they've wasted on that, they will never, ever, ever, ever get back. Yeah. It's really good.

It's only short. I haven't quoted it exactly. But it's just how you see life. You know what I mean? If you see it as every thought, every everything you do, how it does, it may not feel like it. And we're certainly not taught this. But every, you know, thought and feeling you're having is creating your reality. So if, you know, if we actually even just try that and practice that for a bit or write about it or, you know,

then you realize that there is a lot of truth to that. It's like if you look for miracles, they're there. If you look for the good, it's there. If you look for, you know, instead of being upset or jealous with someone, you think, oh, I'd like a little more of what's going on there, you know, instead of, oh, I don't have that or there's a lack of that. But like, hey, I would like to take on a little bit more of what's going on with this person or that person into my world, you know. Yeah. And thank you for reflecting that to me.

it's sent emotions through my body strongly and that means there's a reason. Yeah. There's a reason, right? Definitely. That I'm noticing this or this is in my reality. And is this something that came from partly your acting training? Because obviously if you're an empath, you're opening up to other people's energies, their stories, their emotions. Yeah, always.

From the time I can remember. And it was weird because I didn't really have anyone to talk to about it or I didn't quite understand it. My grandmother a bit, Mimi, it's amazing. She understood it a bit and saw it a bit in me. She was like, oh, there's something here with, and but now, I mean, as I've gotten older and I've read a lot about it and, you know, done some yoga and done some, you know, all this stuff. It definitely, in meditation and creative visualization and all that stuff, it made me realize, oh, okay. And it took a while, you know, because you're in society,

you're undoing a lot of stuff that you've been told and, you know, generational stuff. Still. And I suppose when you first start acting school, because you're only 17, is that right? You're in New York. And on your own there, it's so, I mean, that's so cool. I did move out 18, but I don't think I could have gone to New York on my own. Where did you go? Did you go to London?

Well, I lived in London. So I've actually, in some ways, been very intrepiditous because I, even now, I live 10 minutes from my mom. Right. Oh, nice. I know she's kept the, she kept the tie is very strong, I think. And my eldest boy, you met just for, he lives with my mum. So he lives down the road with his grandma.

Oh, my God. And, yeah, but, you know, I needed to get out and have my own space. But when you went to acting school, I'd imagine, you know, in your lovely, your grandma sounds lovely, Mimi, noticing you as this observant little thing. But then you're, you've simultaneously got to, in your lessons, be open to all of that. But then if you're driving a career, there's a lot of the, you're encouraged, and it's the same in music, to look both ways, who else is going for the same jobs? How do I feel about getting that, not getting that? Why did that person do that? You know, it's that world as well, isn't that?

Yeah, for sure. You need to be really resilient. I mean, look, and what we do for sure, you know, you have to be. But I loved it. I mean, I think it was one, I believe it was a way to express. It was a way to express it through other people, even, you know, because. If you could see it in other people, I could see it in other people. And it was, how do I express this?

How do I express being able to see these things? Yes. So, and it was, and it was, it just made so much sense to do so. Yeah. The acting. I mean, I didn't know if I would like it or not, but I went down that path and absolutely loved it. And of course, yeah, we have to navigate the business side of it and all of that.

What's your favorite role you've had, do you think? I've really liked all of them in their own way. You know, I've liked all the women that I've played. I've learned something from them and grown from playing each of those roles and been able to, you know, express different aspects of myself that maybe weren't expressed before, you know. Yeah. So it's great. Yeah. And what was going on in your life when you had your first baby?

Oh, my goodness. I was, well, Hermes was six months old when I started Gossip Girl. So we were doing the pilot of Gossip Girl. And then Helena was born, I think, the third season. So it was... Why, you really went for it with the busy work and the babies. It was a lot of mother energy. I was playing a mom, being a mom.

It was really cool. What are your memories of it now when you think back with your... With Amaz when he's only six months, did you say? Oh, it's tiny. I remember sitting and knitting him a little gray poncho when we were, you know, I was in the trailer. You know, I was kind of doing both, you know. I hope you've kept it. I did.

I did keep it. Good. Ponce. What baby doesn't need a poncho? No, it was a little great one with a little hood on it. It was so cute. That's adorable. So cute.

And did you ever, you said you always wanted to be a mother, but did you always feel like you were going to, I mean, did going back to work like that feel quite a natural thing at the time? No, it was a lot. It was a lot to juggle. And at the same time, I mean, somehow I had the energy to do it. I don't know how. You know how it is. You just do. It's like this energy.

as moms that we have. I don't know where it comes from. But it was such a beautiful time because to be a new mom, to be playing a role of a mom that I really love that character. So it was really, it was such a beautiful time in my life. It was challenging and balancing it all, obviously, but really beautiful. Did they come on set with you?

Oh, yeah, always. They were always there. Mostly. Without other people that were having babies around that time, as well or were you there providing the main babies well my co-star matthew his wife had a baby while we were filming and who else i think that's it but i know if i can remember yeah because everyone else was pretty young on the show and now they've all had kids but yeah that must have been so sweet but i was when i was reading this i was thinking my word that's a lot to be taking on you know such

a high profile as well because it's you know it's one thing to be in an acting job it's another thing if it's an acting job that continues not all those jobs could turn in to things that last, but also so high profile. And what was it like to be in the middle of all of that? Because Gossip Girl had, it felt like even from here, it was a big fever around that program. It was really big. It was culturally, you know, very impactful. What's it like when you're in the middle of that feeling?

I think because I was so, it was, I would go to work, do my work, and then I was full-time, I was just mom. So when I wasn't working, I was mom. And that was, you know, and even when I was working, obviously, I was. was mom but it was and they were so kind to me on the set and I only did 10 out of the 13 episodes so I would have like two weeks off at a time I had yeah they were super respectful too that I had little ones um so it was it was doable yeah it was doable it was doable it was a lot but it was doable and I guess with when it's that sort of um show it's got such a structure to the units and how it works and the

days and I mean I suppose you know if you get anything like a steady job in and and in acting, it's like, okay, wow, you know, one of the fortunate ones to know the predictability and, okay, another season, right, this is how it's going to roll out and the hours and all that kind of thing. Yeah, because I'd have days that were super long and then I'd have full days off. So it was kind of a nice thing with the kids, really. You know, you'd have a lot of, instead of having, let's say, a nine to five job where you'd be gone every day, nine to five, I would have a lot of time in between. So I work intensely, but then, you know, and sometimes they would come to the set. Sometimes they would just go play and do their thing. Yeah. No, I think that's really sweet.

So I like the idea of them coming along. And it's nice to hear that it was such a supportive environment for sure. And it's interesting because, you know, as I said, we met briefly last year through the media, yeah, the gig in the phone. And then I was looking up again about, you know, all your involvement with fashion and, of course, acting. And then, of course, you become up against all this information about the fallout of your relationship with your children's dad. And I'm really respectful of that. I'm the daughter of divorced parents. I know you are too.

And so I felt like I'm very much going to take your lead on what I can navigate with it. But at the same time, I feel like it would be a really odd thing, not to mention, but also, as another mother, my heart just went out to you. And I think there's so many ways to become a mother. there's so many ways that motherhood impacts us. For some people, it's you have your baby, you scoop them on your back, you keep going. For other people, it can introduce them into a whole new worlds you weren't expecting. And so I suppose, do you feel firstly where you're sitting now with your 16-year-old and your 19-year-old who are saying to you, go and get your, find your guy in Tuscaline and your animals,

do you feel you can now reflect on that time in a different way? And how are you putting one foot in front of another? Because I think my heart just was the idea of having it dictated about where I have to live and how I'd see it. And by the way, all I think all I could see was love. I mean, it's so clear how much you adore your children, which is gorgeous. I don't even know if everyone would feel they can do all that you've done in that way. It's a lot. Thank you. So sweet.

No, but it's true. I mean, you don't know when you become mother, you don't know what's going to come your way. But to have everything change, including where you literally sleep at night, that's huge. Yeah. Well, I think being an actress prepared me for that part because we always had to move around and be somewhere else and, you know, adapt very quickly. So I had that part, thankfully, it wasn't so crazy. But, yeah, it was a super challenging time. I'm thankful that I was a bit older.

I had my first, no, Irmez when I was 38. and Armes when I was 40, so I was a bit older. It was super, super duper challenging. I don't even know how I got through it. Like when I reflect back, I don't even know how. I don't even know how. But you do. And I think how I got through was really the love of my children.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Because nothing else made sense. So the love of my kids is, you know, nothing else really matters. I mean, to me, if my kids, if I, you know, my kids say I had a great mom, that's it. I've won. Do you know what I mean? I do. Everything in life. That's literally all I want my kids to do. Right. That's it. Like, we love our work. We do it.

We're really, it's a blessing what we get to do. You know, it's such a fun thing. But I think motherhood is probably the most important thing because for all the things we talked about early on in this podcast, you know, for all the things leading up to this, that's why. you want to start them off well. Definitely. You know, as much as you can with the awareness that you have, right? So that they have less to have to fix later, you know. Hopefully. I mean, what was it?

Like Michelle Piper was saying I put money in a little, you know, bank account for them for therapy. Because as much as I think I'm being a great mom, I know, I'm probably, you know, have a lot of stuff. I do like. I've definitely made jokes similar to that long of days. you know you're going to get things i mean everybody every every cat's got something no and we need them and i think we choose them you know if we look at how if you think of like okay we choose our parents and it's also kind of through this challenging time i thought okay well what if they chose this because they need to be do something here on the planet that's super whatever and so they needed

this experience i needed this experience though you mean as a learning experience yeah like we you know if we can look at things obviously a lot of it was looking at my own participation in it because, you know, once you get past the pity party and the blame and the whatever that this is happening and it's whatever, what I think saved me was, okay, you need to look at yourself here because you can't just blame this other person for everything. And even though I was, I felt, and most people around me felt fully justified in that, right? But if you read. And at the same time,

You have to really, and I'm, you know, just talking to a friend about this too and how that's the healing. Yeah. Is looking at yourself and saying, oh, where was I super immature? Where was I, you know, was my part in all of this? And because you can't change anything else. You can change yourself. You can look at yourself. And that's where you grow and you evolve as a person.

Yeah. Not by blaming other people, but by saying, okay, I chose this. I, you know, acted in certain ways. And how can I grow and move on from this in a way that's good and healthy? And it's healthy for the kids. Well, this is the thing because obviously it's ultimately all about them. Yeah. And about the fact that, you know, they have two parents.

You know, it's a lot to navigate. And I think that makes complete sense to me. And, you know, you are so. not alone, but I still think that it's a really difficult thing to navigate. And I think for a lot of people, it's not something that's very front and center. It's not something we speak about very much. I mean, my early childhood years, there was a lot of issues with custody from my parents and back and forth and going back to the courts.

So some of those things are really familiar to me. But it's still not something that I think I remember ever talking about outside of, you know, around the table at home, that would be it, you know? Yeah, of course. And I think, you know, look, a lot of people are quite simply wired, you know, and if you're doing small talk about families and dynamics, you're expecting quite a straightforward answer. If you sit next to someone and what do you do and how do this?

And I think for anyone where you fall outside of the traditional, you've got to now, okay, what works for me and how to navigate this? Who can I then, who's going to be part of my support network? Who are the people where you just don't really need to know any of this? stuff. It's complicated. It's a bit messy. My kids are loved. Yeah. And it's beautiful. And in the end, you know, I think if we can look at times like this, whatever those challenging times are, right? Because everyone has challenging times, whatever it is, right? It may be a divorce that might be work and who knows. How I think, you know, is, you know, and how do I get through it in the most

graceful way? How do I love and how do I heal and how do I look at this from a perspective, a higher perspective of what good can come out of these things. And with kids, I think, you know, it's true, you think, how can I get, I just want my kids to be healthy through this. Like, that's it, you know, that's, that's the main thing. The kids seem really good. Right. Yeah. How do I, you know, I could only do my part, but it's not going to help by me blaming their dad. That won't help them, right? Even though, oh my God, I was not always in that place. But as soon as I could get out of it, I would get on to, okay, let's not play that. Let's not do that because so much of things in society, you know, we're blaming everyone for everything. We're wasting our energy. We're

encouraged to do ready as well, not we? We're wasting so much powerful energy, you know, on things that really, you know, if each one of us said my contribute, what is my contribution to society and that is to be a channel of love in some way the best I can. Do you know? know what I mean? Even though, and because everyone, and you know, you can look at every celebrity, you think they have money or you think they have this, they have their own, believe me, you don't know what's going on. No. You know, and on Instagram, everyone looks whatever. You really don't know what's going on.

So it's important to just bless everyone and, you know, move on the best we can. It's not always easy. You know, we have to have our little pity party, I understand, and have our moment. Sometimes you need to vent, sometimes you need to rent. But we need to recover. Yeah, and apologize. Even with my kids, you know, if I do, I always come back and say, I'm so sorry. I was in such a state and thank you for being so kind and allowing me that space to feel all that stuff.

You know what I mean? I think that's very healthy. And it teaches them that like, yeah, you're going to feel it. Yeah, you have to express it. And it's not always going to come out perfectly. But how you recover from it is super important. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's what I was thinking because I was, you know,

obviously looking through, you know, everything you've experienced. And I was thinking, wow, that's so extraordinarily tough. But then the word you use grace is absolutely it. Because I thought this is somebody who's really worked so hard to distill the good bits from these experiences and use it as an opportunity to make things good. And it's such a, you can give no bigger gift to your kids with that really. because otherwise what they're going to do, like the Michelle Fyfer thing, you know, carry it forward. Okay, let's have some conversations about the times when, you know, that they didn't ever replace that,

or we weren't allowed to talk about that, or there wasn't transparency, or my feelings were confusing here. And actually, if you're a child growing up in an environment that becomes quite adult, which is what those, you know, when your parents split up when you're small, suddenly it's an adult context. Childhood you hope will be this little secure bubble, and that makes it different, you know, speaking firsthand here. but if you can give them permission to feel all the feelings, let it sometimes get scrappy, let it sometimes be confusing, all that stuff.

The worst things are when kids feel like they've got to clamp it all down, that their mum and dad don't really address it, and it's just not given that space. So I think everything you're doing with, you know, these conversations, but also how you put yourself out into the world, I genuinely think it will be helping other people in the same situation. I think they will find such huge comfort in it. because, you know, sometimes you have babies with people and then things change and you've just

got to brave new world. Okay, the days will pass. You will find all the little everyday work on how you frame it. It will come good in the end. It does. It just does. Well, the greatest, absolutely. Because the greatest gift we can really give anyone in our lives is to be happy.

The greatest gift you can give your children is to be happy. and fulfilled yourself because I remember like you know I my mom you know both of our parents were forth is when she was not happy I couldn't concentrate in school I it was like a heart you know to live with a parent that wasn't happy so the greatest gift you can give your children your love in your life anyone in your life is to find your happiness yeah and to be you know in a as much as you can you know to reflect that back to them otherwise they have to carry it. Yes.

And it's not the greatest thing, you know, to give them. It's better to say, okay, let me work on myself here so that I heal. Yep. And I'm whole and complete so that the kids don't have to. Definitely. And I wonder as well if, you know, you mentioned your babies at 30 and 40, you know, maybe 10 years earlier, that would have been way harder to navigate. Yeah. You know, if you haven't got to that point where you can be a bit more measured, know the good people around you.

These friends are great. Yeah. You know, these relationships I have. Yeah. They all really help, don't they? Oh my God, thank goodness. Yeah, thank goodness for our friends. And our support things as well sometimes.

Definitely. And I think, you know, that's what I was thinking about, as I mentioned, your cleaning and aesthetics, you know, you see the world in visual ways. You've got your love of fashion and what it presents. And sometimes we put on clothes because they're reflecting how I feel in the inside. And sometimes it's, I put this on. And then I'm turning up for my life. myself. So sometimes with your pictures in the lift interspersed with these quotes, I was thinking,

this is like a, what do you say, like a way of putting something out into the world that's steady. Like I am here. I've taken time for this. These things matter to me. It's very like peaceful. I kind of really got that feeling. Well, there's so much noise, right? Like you were saying, do we need another podcast? Do I want to start a podcast? Obviously you need this. on that. Otherwise be gone. That's what I'm saying is that you're so good at it. And I'm glad somebody, or just these conversations are so beautiful that you're having with people.

And it's, it is peaceful and it is real. And for me, that's what, I thought, well, what can I do on Instagram that is not adding to the noise? Yes. You know, it's even now they're saying, oh, you'll get more reach if you put the music on. And I'm just sort of like, and so many times I'm trying to read someone's quote or something. and the music is going and I have to like go, how can I read this quote? This song is going at the same time.

So it's a lot, a lot of layering of noise. I think it's also because people don't always know what's working when. So sometimes it's a bit like, I'll do everything all at once. I know, I know. So I've just said, let's just create something that's some, it's a place where you don't have, it's less noisy.

Yeah. And also you mentioned about podcast and for me, like the whole thing I wanted to achieve was all representations of motherhood. on parenting and ways you can either become a parent, ways you can raise and things that can affect you. And I think, you know, obviously most people's first port of course like quite a cookie cutter version of what family life looks like. But actually, for anyone that's gone through separation and then had, it's a new thing to navigate, but it's also, you're so not alone, you know, with that feeling of being so 100% present. And then the bit where the kids go and you're on

your own and, you know, I've got a girlfriend going through it now. It's really tough. And I think it's good to talk about it because it affects so many people. I didn't even really think about it personally until I had my mum as one of the very early conversations I had. You're like, oh yeah, now I see you in that equation actually. Interesting. Yeah. But then probably, you know, when you're at the centre, when you're the kid, in it, you're just busy getting on with your life and it's all just coming at you straight on. And you can have no better proof in the pudding than how clear it is your relationship with your children that, you know, you've seen lovely pictures recently of your son, and then your daughter's saying, it's okay now, Mom. I'm like, it's actually incredible.

Like, the more you know, the more impactful that is that she said it. Yeah, exactly. It is. It is. It's so beautiful. How aware. But that's what I mean. They're aware of our happiness. It was a reflection of, hey, mom, we see that you're kind of hanging out here, but we're good. Like you can now go, you know, how intuitive and how, you know, graceful. She seems pretty sorted. Yeah, she's super sort, way sorted. She should be running the world.

Oh, my word. She and all of her friends are like so amazing. I'm like, oh, my God. I know, that generation sometimes, I can really surprise you. Yeah. Yeah. But it's good, isn't it? Because it can influence the way you see things too.

Well, I think our, I've always thought my kids were here to teach me, you know. I mean, I think they come in with all the new knowledge. I've always thought women were sort of portals. to the other side, you know, we're the ones that sort of from wherever we come from to earth that were the portal for that. And how powerful that is and beautiful that is and how the kids really will tell you what's coming and what they're here to do if you listen. I mean, my son, when he was about four or five, was doing a drawing of robots.

And I said, oh, it was intricate. It was so detailed. I said, wow, that's amazing. He goes, well, mom, you know, like in 18 years, we're all going to be robots. And I'm like, okay. And now here we are, like, in this interesting time. He's got three years left until his prophecy comes true. Oh, my God.

But they really, they know what they're here to do. They know if we just, we think we know so much. You know, we're sort of an old operating system. We've been here. We've been conditioned. We've, you know. And they come in so ready for what's coming and what's next. next, you know, that it's so important to listen to them and honor their, what they're saying,

even if it seems out there. Yeah, no, I can't be agreeing. Well, I think there's been a lot of wisdom here. So thank you so much for sharing so much. And just to end on something incredibly superficial, but also important to me. I loved your collaboration with Corral. They're one of my favorite brands. So, yeah, that was very cool.

Have you got a favorite brand you've worked with? Um, not favorite, because I love them all, really. I love, I love all the brands. I mean, I mean, obviously I love Karel. I wear it all the time. Yeah, they're so good. It's perfect for you. Oh my God. I can see how. Yeah. You love, you must. Yeah, I do. And I think, so those listening don't know, so Karel is like French, primarily, they do handbags, but they're primarily shoes. Very cute kind of 60s inspired. So little Mary Jane's with maybe two or three buckles, different heel heights, nice and flat sometimes, little like they do Akina, which is like a little cute. I just wish they were a little bit cheaper.

They are really nice. And all the colors, they're like sweeties. No, I know. They're beautiful. They're beautiful. When I did the collaboration, I was like, how can we even do something different? You've been around for so long and there's so many colors and so many things. Like, what do you even add to it?

You know, they're really. It's just that French thing as well. It's like, you feel cooler when you're wearing it. It's nice. It's like you can almost wear it as like a teenager, but then a grandmother can wear them. My mom does wear them. Right? Yeah.

Completely like such a span. Is your daughter into your wardrobe? Yeah. A little bit, but she's kind of, she's got her own style. Of course. You know, but she does come in and be like, I'll take this, this and this and the rest. She's the same shoe size. Okay.

Thank you so much, Kelly. Thank you. Thank you. See, don't you feel all nice and calm? I feel like Kelly is exactly the sort of woman you want in your life. Philosophical, good listener, empathetic, interesting. I loved our chat. and a lot of what she said

we recorded that back in I think it was in November and I've actually found myself thinking back to our chat quite a lot actually and I've also thought about how Kelly sings the praises of her group of girlfriends and how much support they've given her and all their adventures in life

and also her kids just come across say well don't know they sound like lovely young people so yeah cheers to you Kelly and I am now I'm now speaking to you from actually at the end of what's been a really nice day so when I spoke to at the beginning

it was yesterday morning it's dismal now it's been a blue sky kind of day I feel much better about everything and yeah I'm joined by my cat I can see Don Draper my fluffiest little cat he's lounging on my bed

which is something he's probably hoping to do the whole time I'm away but I might have to shut him out because last time I don't know if it was him or one of his little cat friends. But we got back and basically I think one of the cats had like weed on the duvet as a sort of

like little protest against us being away. So Don, don't get too comfy over there. I also recorded another podcast interview for you today. Another lovely guest. What a lucky bean I am. And

I'm nearly finished my packing. I'm heading off for a few hours in a few hours to go to the airport. but I think I'm feeling a little bit more in the zone. I also chopped off loads of my hair yesterday. Funnily enough, I think that helped. I had a really quite radical haircut. Not that radical.

It's not like I've shaved, but it's a bit off or something. I've had a bob. It's really not that radical. God, that's like middle-aged radical, isn't it? It was long, and now it's a bob. A long bob at that. So, yeah, but it does feel different. It's like a different kind of energy to have it a bit shorter,

a bit more like nippy. my friend Lisa did it for me and she said she'll give you a sexy bob and I was like you had me at sexy. Who doesn't want to have sexy hair? Come on. So me and my sexy hair are going to head over to Australia and I'm actually going to record one of the podcasts while I'm there which is the first so that's exciting too. But listen the next time I speak to you next week I'll be somewhere else. I'll tell you I'll try and paint a picture for you as best I can about where I find myself. I suspect I'll be in New Zealand by the time we speak again. So thank you so much for joining me this week. Thanks to Richard for doing such gorgeous editing work, to Claire for such brilliant production, to Ella May for the lovely artwork.

Thank you to Kelly for being such a gorgeous guest and for being so generous with her wit and her wisdom and her stories. And thank you mainly, obviously, to you for your ears. I know I am banging on about this, but every time any of you contact me, put a comment out about the podcast, tell me who you'd like as a guest, put a review on something, I read it because this podcast is very much my baby. It's like my passion project. So I really do love your feedback and I do read it all. And you have shaped exactly what this is, what this community is.

So thank you. And yeah, I will leave you with that. I'm going to go off. I've actually been a bit clever if I do so myself, and I haven't filled my bag up. That is in preparation for the amazing vintage clothing. I will be finding when I'm in Australia and New Zealand. So, yeah, watch this place. All right, I'm blathering on as usual.

Lots and lots of love to you all. And have a wonderful week where I've you up to. And I will see you very soon with another episode.