Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 175: Dawn Williams

Episode Date: February 9, 2026

Dawn Williams is a mum of three and an Olympic weightlifter. She is also a campaigner for exercising throughout cancer treatment to get the best possible chance of recovery. And this is all before we even touch on her full-time job in life sciences. Dawn and I met by chance on a train when I was travelling to a gig. We got talking and I knew I wanted to share her amazing story with you.In the podcast we talk about the way Dawn faced her breast cancer diagnosis, not long after becoming a single mum, how she talked to her children about having breast cancer, and how they supported her and kept a mini fridge and a snack box stocked in her room, for any time she needed to be on her own. Dawn carried on training, and even became stronger throughout her treatment. She also told me about recent research which shows that carrying on exercising may reduce the risk of cancer coming back. Dawn is now cancer-free and trains 5 times a week before coming home to the place she and her children call Team Dawn. Was it the fact that she’s an ex-paramedic or that she has 5 gold medals and can snatch 45 kilos that made me feel very safe in her presence? Either way, I very much did!Here's to more conversations on trains!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lestepster and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it all work. I'm a singer and I've released eight albums in between having my five sons, aged between seven years old and nearly 22, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions.

I want to be a little bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Well, I don't want to be too snug about this, but to those of you listening in Blighty, I'm in very warm, very sunny, blue sky in Melbourne. And I've got to admit, the warm bones I'm experiencing feel pretty good. I feel bloody miles away, though.

I mean, I know that's obvious, but it's so unique to coming to this side of the planet from where I usually reside. It just feels so comically far away. I think it's to do with the fact that you're not only, you know, you've travels the other side of the planet, but also the seasons flip. So winter to summer. The clock is absolutely backwards.

So, yeah, it took a little bit of getting used to, but I have actually been out in Australia, New Zealand, for a week now. So I feel properly acclimatized. I'd like to raise a imaginary toast to the... half of my band who turned up on Monday to New Zealand ready to do our first gig on Tuesday and our second gig on Wednesday. They've coped very, very well. But Richard and I came out a week ago because last Sunday I sang at the tennis. The Australian Open and then the single final. So that was really cool, literally was on the court and then I watched the final Djokovic and Alcarat. It was really good. I was ringing for Alcarat, so that's a really good.

good. He won. He plays, I mean, they both played so phenomenally. It's amazing watching people who are just that extraordinary in what they do. So that was pretty cool. And then through to New Zealand for my first ever band shows there. Never mind that. It's also the first time I've been there in 24 years. I went to Hamilton, which is a very sweet little town. Travel to Hobbiton to the set of the Holbeam in the ring, which felt slightly incongruous, but Pablo and Richard were very excited. I know it will mean something to my two teenagers back home. And it's actually very beautiful countryside. It's well done.

And we played Christchurch last night. Really cool. I liked Christchurch a lot. And now today I've got a day off in Melbourne. We've flown back here tomorrow gig. Saturday, Sydney, Sunday, Tasmanian Festival. So lucky me. This is another little adventure I found myself on.

I'm talking of adventures. Last year when I was promoting, Peri Menlo Pop. I did lots of signings in record shops up and down the country. And to get in between them all, I was on the train a lot. And one time I was sat opposite a lady and we just got talking. And she looked kind of about my age, but, you know, dressed sort of quite smartly in a suit. She had her laptop out. But she sort of said in passing, oh, I'm actually a weight lifter. I'm a British Olympic weight lifter and my ears absolutely pricked up like what so she has a day job working in the healthcare sector but she's also a weight lifter she lifts incredible impressive weights as

has medals to her name and she'd also been doing a little bit of promotion of course it's got really windy a head editor richard aka my husband isn't too cross for me for talking to you and a windy was just sort of walked into a bit of a wind tunnel. Anyway, as I got talking to this lady, she told me her name was Dawn. She has three children, a 20-year-old, twins who are 17. And she revealed that she'd actually was the other side of her breast cancer diagnosis

and treatment. Happily was in remission, cancer-free, but that her oncologist and her had basically been so, grateful to Dawn's fitness program and regime that she maintained throughout all of her treatment and they both so Dawn's been now talking oh gosh that's another noisy thing an advocate for keeping your okay sorry about this guys I'll get ricted to egg that was noisy basically if you do exercise during cancer

treatment it has been proven that There's research to support that you are 30% less likely for the cancer to return. How phenomenal is that? Something I didn't know. So I thought Dawn was pretty impressive, actually. And before we got off this train journey, I said, right, we must stop details. I would love to have you on the podcast. And thankfully, that's exactly what's happened.

I'm going to get off this noisy road and let you listen to a much more calm environment of Dawn and I speaking. She came around to my house and she just is so articulate and open about a very traumatic experience but also testament to the relationship she has with her children and also with the people in her gym, the weightlifting community, her trainer, all these people that gave her the support to get through something that she didn't know she'd be experiencing but she's the other side of and now is happy to speak about. So over to Dawn and an incredible story. And sorry about all the noise, guys.

You're going to go into a nice, quiet space. I promise, I promise. See any other side. It's so nice to see again. And I'm chuckling a bit because we met on a train. We did. And so I remember we had this really, relatively brief, but really fascinating conversation.

And I'm so grateful you've come round because sometimes you'll say to someone in passing a while, I love to see you again. But I look here you are. I'm super excited. Yeah. And there were so many things that have fascinated me. I think, so when I saw you on the train,

you were in your kind of day job attire, very smartly put together shirt and suit and your laptop and busy with things. But I think what sparked my interest was when you mentioned that that weekend, you were going to be taking part in a weightlifting competition because you're also an Olympic weightlifter, which I thought was amazing. But it didn't stop being interesting there because you also told me that in 2023, you'd had diagnosed with breast cancer.

And actually, you've now been working with a charity to try and promote the fact that actually if you train during your treatment, you're much less likely for the cancer to return. Yeah. So in light of all of that, where should we start? What about the here and now? What are you up to at the moment and how is life treating you and your three kids? So, yeah, mum of three, 20-year-old man boy, as I call him now, and 17-year-old twins, boy and a girl.

So they're super busy with their education and I am now back at work full time after I was poorly. And I am really pleased that at the moment, I'm touching wood. no evidence of disease. So that's the words that you want to hear when you've had, when you've had cancer. And with regard to how am I, I am back lifting. I competed in the English Championships on the 6th of December. I won, but I didn't just win. I got a personal record. So for me, that was, I'm definitely coming back, back to Dawn, who was before I got poorly. I think that's the one thing that impacts you, both as a mum. But as a woman, with breast cancer, you kind of lose your identity for a little while. So I am really pleased to say

that my identity is coming back to the old dawn. I feel more confident again. I've got my hair back. This is all of my hair. But it's those things that you don't realize when you're from the outside looking in, that somebody who's previously been quite confident at work with the children in sport, that it disappears for a little while. So you have to fight to get it back. Well, that's so much to go through. And also I'm very aware that a lot of this is very recent times we're talking about. When did your treatment finish? So I was diagnosed the 6th of October, 2023.

Managed to squeeze a weightlifting competition in before the British before I started my treatment in November, 2023. So I had eight rounds of chemotherapy every two weeks. and then in April 24 had my surgery. So I made the radical decision to have a double mastectomy in reconstruction. A lot of that was driven by me being a mom and trying to protect my future. So I had that in April. So that's when my surgery stopped and then not wrong after that, I had scans to say that I was clear of a disease.

And then my body then had to physically repair, not just mentally, but physically repair, because I'd had quite big surgery. Yeah. Yeah, so that was kind of my treatment journey. But I was able to get back training after six weeks. So I was six weeks. So I was super lucky. Yeah, I was super lucky.

I had an amazing surgeon. But also I didn't stop training throughout my chemotherapy. So it kept me really strong. And because it kept me strong, I was able to recover quickly. So my muscles were strong, my tissues repaired quickly. And I guess this to your point, I really want women to feel confident that they can exercise, that they should exercise, that they need to look after themselves. It doesn't have to be a little weightlifting. That's probably a bit extreme for everybody.

But just any kind of exercise that keeps your body moving, maintaining blood flow, so the cells start to heal quickly. I think it's such an amazing thing. And I am working with breast cancer now. I'm a volunteer. And when I go to the volunteer sessions, that's one of the things I've done. reinforce and I embed for sure. So you're volunteering in what regard this is with the charity that you've been working with? With breast cancer now. Yeah. So I'm super lucky that the organisation that I work for give me four days volunteering time. So I've used all of that time to go and

volunteer with breast cancer now. So it's about moving forward. So they do a really good program called moving forward. But when you've just been diagnosed with breast cancer, gone through treatment, you come out the other side. You actually feel quite exposed because there's no regular check-ins. There's no nurse conversations every week. There's no scams. You know, you're kind of left feeling healthy-ish, but dealing with what you've just been through. So it's so important that the women get that support afterwards. And it's not just for the six months or 12 months. It's like two, three, four years afterwards. So that's what I do. I've got four more sessions in the new year as well. So I really enjoy that. I really enjoy hearing people

stories but also just supporting them as well yeah because i was going to ask about the the after because i'd imagine that that almost needs a word of its own for what that that bit of the journey is like i know i've used word journey but in terms of the the progress where you've got your diagnosis you're dealing with all this information you're trying to wrap your head around where you found yourself then your own personal treatment plan and all as you say the rate regularity of it, the people you see, the experience of that. But then when you come out the other side, I mean, there's so much you've already explained. I can really touch the corners of that, the idea of getting back into yourself, factoring in that you're now post that, but actually

letting it all percolate and acknowledging what you've been through, how it affected you, how affected other people. And obviously for you, you've got children at really crucial time in their lives, but also a time when they're able to see you as a 360 person a bit more as well, which has positives and negatives actually because they're more aware of, well, of your, what makes us mortal actually? Yeah. And our vulnerabilities. I mean, if we can go back to the time of your diagnosis, how did you talk to your children about what was happening? Yeah, you are advised. So I did ask the question of the breast cancer nurses. How do I tell my, that was the first, as soon as I got told, the first, my first, my children, my poor kids. And just also for contact, you told me just before we start recording that you'd also not long since been divorced and moved into your own place with them and they're with you all the time.

Yeah, so this has a whole breathing new world already. Yeah, new beginnings that were kind of put on pause. That's how it's. that's how it felt and it wasn't just to pause out it was something quite significant that I had to get through but I couldn't do it on my own I needed I needed to tell them and I needed to share so my immediate response was I can't tell them yet because I needed to also process it myself but I did tell them sat them down and I just said I will get through this I will get through this one way or another I will get through this because it's really difficult I was a paramedic a previous life and the words that you cannot ever say to somebody is you're going to be fine because actually I don't know I didn't know that I was going to be fine but I did know that I was

going to get through it whether that what that looked like at the other side I didn't know but those are words I could use that were more reassuring but also not untrue um so I just talked about the treatment plan I talked about what that would look like and they were they were really cute. So in my bedroom, I'm on the third floor of our house. I had a mini fridge and a snap box and all sorts of things that they pulled together for me. So when I came back from chemo, they were there to support me. Everything was ready. They left me on my own and I was on the end of the phone and they check in and message me. So it became their journey. We've used that, but it became their journey. But I think they became part of it, but in a positive way.

that they could see that I was actually coping with it and it was okay and it was fine and it was nothing to be scared of because then I'd get up the next morning and I was okay. So they never came to the hospital appointments with me. I didn't do that. I didn't take my mom either. I did the bulk of them on my own and people find that quite bizarre, but I couldn't bear the thought of having to look at somebody going through the trauma that I was going through. And I would have been more concerned about that than actually listening.

to what I was supposed to be listening to. So that's the way that I dealt with it. And there's no right or wrong. And that's the one thing I will say. Everybody will deal with it in a very different way. But bringing my kids along with me and explaining every part. So when I got an appointment, what that was for. I think it really helps.

I mean, they were 16 at the time. So they weren't small children anymore. You know, they were turning into adults. So I kind of, I owed it to them as well, to be honest with them, as honest as I could. in the situation. So yeah, that's how I dealt with it. And we even did the race for life together in June after. So I had my surgery in April. We all did the race for life together in June. So that was almost like the closure for them as well. That was moms at the end of the journey. So we were a team. We did work really closely together. And anybody that's going through it,

I would recommend having proper conversations with your children because I think it definitely helps. Yeah, and also I think it's so wise what you said about not saying you'll be fine because you don't even know what the other side looks like at that point and it also allows all the conversation around that rather than what does fine look like anyway really and what if they're presenting of fine but underneath the surface there's all the other turmoil and the fears that they didn't want to address rest at the time or fears they are experiencing right then and there.

Just insofar as your route to diagnosis, had you always been good at checking yourself? Is this something that was coming out? Have you been prudent? Was it kind of more by accident? I mean, obviously, if it's too personal, you don't feel you have to share it. And actually, it's a point I want to reinforce. So I found, I started to go through a menopause, went to the GP a year before. And the GP found a lump.

I just thought it was menopause, saw boobs. A lot of us go through it. He found a lump. So I went through the system the first time and it came back that it wasn't cancerous. Fast forward 10 months later, the lump is still there. So I went back knowing I was starting my new life with the kids and I just wanted to be really clear.

So mammogram was clear. The ultrasound was clear. But obviously I knew the lump was still there. So they did a biopsy and it came back as being cancerous. So for everyone out there, please check yourself because a mammogram is not full proof, an ultrasound is not full proof. Know your body inside out and back to front. It's so important.

Did you have to advocate then to say, I think you need to check it out again? Or were they saying? Because I was back a year later. That's the procedure, is it? Yeah. The sonographer insisted that I, she insisted with a consultant that I had a, had a scan and actually that lady I can't remember her name

but I think she saved my life wow she saved my life because she was insistent and spent probably good 45 minutes just double triple checking everything wow that's so impactful that so she yeah and so I was really really lucky

but it came back as unexpected breast cancer I don't think anybody expected with the previous 12 months and the tests that it was going to be breast cancer so but I kind of knew I don't know. You get like a six-thence. That's why I went back.

But yeah, know your boobs. Know them inside out and back to front. I think as well, you just have that thing of, I remember years ago, I was experiencing some discomfort on one side. And so I went to my GP and very quickly got referred for a check at the hospital. And you sometimes, you know, you find yourself in the waiting room and there's all the other people. and I was chatting a little bit to some of them and then you suddenly think

it very much could be me I mean so far I've made it to this room and then I'll be in another room and then maybe that room I'll be going to that room so your brain is starting to kind of why do I think it wouldn't be me that goes through to those different rooms and gets that diagnosis

but I do yeah whoever that sonographer was she really did She really did save my life. Yeah, she did do a job very well. And if we go back, I want to talk a little bit more you said about being a paramedic. Yeah. So what was your, how long were you doing that? Is that what you did when you first, like, left education? I dabbled in some part-time jobs, but yeah, at the age of 20, pretty much after education. I was always intrigued by what was going on in the back of an ambulance for years, even when I was younger. Yeah. So I joined the ambulance service at the age of 20,

and I was a paramedic at the age of 21. So I had no fear, had no expectation of life really at the age of 21. And I would say it was the best time for me to do it. Because there wasn't that, you know, the nervousness as you get older. And the anticipation, well, that's going to go wrong or this is going to go wrong. I didn't worry about any of that. I just dealt with what was thrown at me. So I did that job for seven years.

Oh, wow. I did it for seven years. Yeah. And then I moved into the life sciences industry. But I dislocated my knee quite badly, so I was medically retired. Okay. But, you know, I think seven years is a decent, it's a decent stint. I saw lots of things in my time there, and it made me grow up really quickly.

It really did. Wow. And taught me a lot of things about life. There's no rhyme or reason behind why a lot of things that happen to a lot of people. No. I only that's, yeah, in a way, it's sort of, well that's kind of the thing about life as you said but it's one of those things that we can kind of soften the edges of when we want to but if you've actually been going into those

situations and people who are experiencing that moment where everything pivots literally in seconds in seconds yeah wow I think that was the biggest thing for me life changed in seconds whether it was somebody having a stroke that was just sat with their family then they have a stroke and then that's it their worlds got turned upside down they They can no longer speak and they can no longer walk. Road accidents, some of the road accidents were pretty horrendous. There were life changing for families. And it was split second decisions that people have made that impacted their life, you know, forever.

Yeah. How did you deal with the trauma of a lot of that? I was young and I was pretty resilient. So we didn't really have counselling back in the day. It was quite old school. I'm not shocked. It was quite old school. It was right, off to your next job.

So you'd clean the back of the ambulance and you'd be off to your next job. And I guess you're in a culture of doing it together. Yeah. So at the time, I mean, I've spoken to people from many walks of life. And one of the things that we stay with me when I spoke to a forensic pathologist. So, you know, doing autopsies. And she said as well, no, no counseling, no help with how to, you know, if you're, I don't know, bring your family member in to identify body, how you might frame that,

how you might what you might take home, how you might help yourself with that. So have things changed? Is it better for paramedics now? Is there more resources for them to, do you know? I think it's a very different job now. I've obviously been out of it for quite a while. I think the actual jobs they go to are very different. There's a lot more routine work.

They do get more support for sure. I hope so. Yeah, because it was. I mean, I was still, I worked with five men in my shift group because we worked with the same people all of the time, which was great because you got to really trust people. But I was with five men and a 22-year-old blonde with five men in their 40s. That was kind of how it worked. But they supported me and we supported each other. But I mean, there were some amazing things. You know, I did save people's lives. People go into cardiac arrest and I'd resuscitate them. And that I changed their

family's life forever because I got their dad or their brother or their son back to life. Baby's born. That's always quite exciting. Not as glamorous as I thought it probably was, being on the other end. But equally, very special for people. Not that you ever want to have a baby in the back of an ambulance, but equally you're bringing a baby into the new human being into the world. Oh, that's very poignant. Yeah, 100%. But it taught me so much. And I, on the odd occasion, and I did used to go to people I knew as well. So that I felt quite privileged that I was supporting somebody when they really needed, really needed help.

So I don't know whether they were so pleased that it was me that turned up when I felt privileged that I was supporting them. So it just taught me so much about just about life, actually. Yeah. It's an insight into so many things, isn't it? Because I guess it's a real, I mean, but I don't want to sound trite.

It's a real leveller that in that situation, everything else falls away. You just want to feel that you're in safe hands. That's it. That's all people want to know. Yeah. Yeah. And I think going into jobs afterwards, I always say I had a real job before I started

this job. Yeah. Because that's what it feels like, you know, I had a real job that it impacted people's lives. Yeah, you feel like that. If you made the wrong decision, that was somebody's life. So. Yeah, and it's also, it's gnarly, you know.

For a lot of us, we might never have to confront those things, those situations. Yeah. I have to say, Dawn, I feel incredibly safe in your presence. I mean, you're trained paramedic, you can lift heavy stuff, you're very calm to listen to. I'm feeling great. I feel like anything could happen and you will take care of it. Hopefully. Fingers crossed.

Let's not wish that. Was it life sciences you were working when you had your babies then? Is that what was going on at that time? Yes. Yeah, and that was probably a good move. I don't think I could have worked the shifts with small children. So I was in life sciences when I had all of them. Yeah, so I was married at 30.

First baby at 32. Twins at 35. So I was moving into that older mom category. How did you find it having twins? Was that something, is it, are they, no, they're boy and girl, you said. Boy and girl. Yeah, so this is when there's just two eggs at the same time. They were IV.

So they were super, super precious. The other thing, I went through eight miscarriages. So having children was super special. It is for anybody. But you don't realize that you really want them until you can't have them. That was what I was faced with. So I had four miscarriages before I had my son, my first son. And then I miscarriage four sets of twins before I have my twins.

Oh, Dawn, you've been through so much. But it became a kind of, it sounds like. really awful, but it became, I knew what I wanted. I knew that I wanted babies. As long as my health was okay and my body could cope, um, I had one shot at IVF and I ended up with the twins. So, um, it worked and we were super lucky. So yes, they were two embryos that went back in, so two separate. They said, boy and a girl, they look and, well, they're both dark, but they do look very different. Yeah. But yeah, I was, I was 35, nearly 35 when I had them. They've just had their 17th birthday. Wow. Very wanted baby.

They were. All of them. Yeah, they were. But again, I did quite a lot of work for Tommy's charity. And did a few stories on women that had been through that process. Because, you know, there's so many similarities for everybody's journey. You know, you look at a scan and there's no heartbeat. Or, you know, every time you get pregnant, you're paranoid. You spend 50% of your time set on the toilet, for instance,

because you just don't know what's going to happen next. So I did write some stories about my feelings. how it made me feel, but actually how do you pull yourself out of it? What is the positive that you can take from it? So, yeah, and I hope that's supported people. But my advice was never give up. If children is what you really want, they're so precious. They change your life.

Yeah. If it's what you want. And as long as you're keeping yourself safe, then don't give up. There's always a way. Yeah, and there's also, as you say, many ways to have a family, many ways to form a family. Exactly. So you might start off thinking with the traditional way of making it. a baby but actually the world is wide there's many ways to bring those people together and create

what family means to you actually yeah and as you know when your children are here by whatever means they came to you you always feel like there was nobody else they were going to be it was always going to be those people yeah yeah but that's um i mean i suppose that's again like your it sounds like there's a thread of an instinct to bring into it people bring some light to the shadows of the bits, you know, bring community around things that can be tricky for people. And I suppose if you're having quite a medicalised approach to falling pregnant and then having a pregnancy supervised, there's an energy around those meetings, those appointments, you know, the care of, you know, checking everything's all right that can actually suppress sometimes

the loneliness, the fact that you're going through those things. Yeah. And what happens when you're out the other. So just so I heard you right, was that your own only experience of IVF, was the time you had them. Yeah, so I was super lucky that it worked the first time. Yeah, that is wonderful. And you tend to go through this experience with a group of other people

that are going through the same cycles, there's the same process, but not everyone's a winner at the end of it, and that's really difficult to deal with. So there could be four of you. There's lots of chats on Facebook and different groups as well. So everybody's starting positive if you're waiting for your results, but then there could be 50% that drop off at,

don't have a positive outcome. And that's really difficult to deal with. Especially as well, because mostly your friends are getting pregnant at the same time. It can also be hard because you feel like you're sort of left slightly straddling to communities because the people that are around you to give you support when you're going through the miscarriages and the longing. That's, you know, we now know where to find other voices, other people to find the solidarity and the comfort. But when you find yourself lucky enough to be having the baby and a new mum, you can sometimes feel a bit like I can't speak to that community even though those people meant so much to me. Yeah, yeah, it's really difficult. It's really difficult. So, yeah, three very precious children I have.

And when did the weightlifting start with all this? It started in lockdown. Besides my double buggy. Yeah, there is that. It started. So I've played netball the whole of my life. I've always run, tough mudder, any kind of sport. I'll try everything. I love it.

It's so good for your mind and for your body. But in lockdown, of course, it was really difficult. So I was one of those people that went and bought weights and decided that I was going to do that. So I ran, did hit classes online, but also started lifting weights. And then I kept putting more weight on the bar, more weight on the bar. And actually, my coach said, you're really strong. So when we went back into the gym post lockdown, he just said, I think, you're could actually compete and do Olympic weight lifting. So Olympic weight lifting is basically throwing

the bar over your head as opposed to just lifting it off the floor. Okay. So the bar always ends up above your head. So this is like the kind of push snatch and then clean and jerk. Yeah. That's a clincher. You just demoed very well. Holding nothing. I'm quite good at that one. So I just started and then I think it was about six months later I competed. For six months. Yeah. He's a super super coach. I've got a shout out of him. Sam, my coach is amazing. And is Sam still part of your world now? Sam has been a massive part of my world. Wow.

So he adapted all of my lifting. So I lifted throughout my chemo. He adapted my program. His brother died from cancer and his cousin had breast cancer. So he was super passionate about pulling, you know, putting my program together. But he got massive experience. So yeah, he encouraged me. And I competed.

And then the next big competition really was the British champ. So I competed when I knew that I'd got breast cancer. It kind of gave me a bit of fire in my belly. And so I won the British champs two weeks before I started my chemo. Yeah, so I just, a lot of sports you can, like you run and you can think at the same time. With weightlifting, you can't think. Because if you're thinking about loads of other things, you will drop the bar and you won't lift. So you have to almost have like that.

complete blankness in your brain before you can lift. And that's a really good thing. It's a really, really good thing to have because you completely switch off. And had you had anything in your world that had given you that feeling before that? No other sport, nothing. And this was lockdown. So I'm trying to think with my maths, how old the kids were the sort of, as you said, they're 16 and 20, 17 and 20 now.

So they would have been 13, 13, 14. So then, yeah, I just started. to go into the gym competing and then it just became part of my training program and my running decreased and my weightlifting increased. And what do you do you do any other sports to support the weight lifting or when you're doing weights does it become all about the weights and the technique of that? So I did used to run as well. I struggle to run now because unfortunately my breast cancer was estrogen fed so I have no estrogen in my body so my joints are a bit cranky these days. But did you still run, I have gone back to playing netball again. They're quite good in terms

of complements in each other because it's a lot of strength in netball, a lot of leg strength, so it works. But that's probably it. I don't do as much cardio stuff, but as you get older, you don't need to do cardio. If you're over 40, you should be lifting weights. Everybody should be lifting weight. I've heard this so much about, so let's talk about that bit. What are the benefits specifically maybe for women's bodies with weightlifting? So you build your muscles. and you build your bone. So if your bone strength increases, as you get older, your bone density,

particularly for me, because I've got no estrogen, building bone density is so important. But it's not just for people that have had cancer, it's for all women, because your estrogen will diminish like everybody else's. And your bone density starts to be compromised. So actually building muscle and bone density is so important.

So I saw two women walking down the street, the other day. They must have been in the 80s. One lady was really sprightly and trotting along and then her friend was hunched over her back was all. You could and so that to me was like, you're going to sit up shirt. You just projected us in the future. That was it. That's like the like two tails of fitness. So obviously the one lady had looked after herself and then the other lady maybe hadn't done any exercise. But that's how important it is. You can live like much healthier and longer life if you look after yourself. Yes.

From the, you know, start lifting weights at the age of 40. Don't have to lift Olympic weights. It's not about that, but just getting stronger. I think that is brilliant. And also the satisfaction of feeling strong in yourself. Yeah. Feels great. So just with the estrogen, how, so does that mean that when you're sort of post-menopause,

that you have to have a very tailored, um, situation for that to support your health now and what you've been through and your weightlifting as well? Yeah, so estrogen's my enemy, unfortunately. It's everybody's friend normally, but it's my enemy. So I actually have my estrogen blocked as well. So I do take supplements, so cod liver oil, glucosamine, all of the things that you probably heard of, but they stay on the shelf. But I have to take them in order to keep my joints stronger, but have a high protein diet. I was going to say, we eat with your diet, like. Very Mediterranean, but protein is king.

So, you know, lots of chicken, lots of fish, cottage cheese, which is the devil's work, according to a lot of people. But it's amazing. It's got so much protein in it. I have no strong feelings about conscious cheese. Everybody I say, I eat lots of cottage cheese. I like, oh, dawn. But it's so good for you. No, I think it's supposed to be. My 16-year-old's got quite into those sorts of things, and he's been educated me a bit.

Yes, yeah. So yeah, my diet's completely changed. But things like I used to have soy milk in my latties, can't have that anymore because soyas got estrogen. So I just have to be super careful about what I eat. But I feel as though now I've got into a normal groove of what I can and can't eat. But yeah, if estrogen is your friend, you just need to keep it in your body for as long as you possibly can as well. So that is taking things like soil your milk is good for women that haven't gone through estrogen-fed breast cancer. So, yeah, keep it in your body for as long as you possibly can. I feel like I have so many things to learn.

I do, but it's fascinating. And I think, wow, you've been so brilliant at integrating and actually being a good example of all the things you're supposed to be doing. And I find that very inspiring. So can we talk a bit more about? the relationship of your exercise and your treatment because it's unusual to have competed and did you say the British championship between your diagnosis and your first chemotherapy. Was that what you did then?

Yes. Yeah. At the time, did that just feel very instinctive? Is this blank space that the weightlifting giving, is that, has that been a massive part of your keeps your brain feeling healthy? So I think my treatment was due to start mid-November. I competed the end of October. So it made, it was a goal that I wanted to achieve before I started.

Because I didn't really know where that journey was going to take me. Once you start chemo, it's like the unknown. But the focus that weightlifting gave me prior to treatment to keep me strong. So I have to train five times a week. I'd obviously got competition. So my diet was really good. I literally gave myself the best. I always talk about giving yourself the best chance when you go through chemo.

you know you've got one shot to get this right give yourself the best opportunity and then I just continued that's red so my diet was really healthy I even like put greens powders into my smoothies just to enhance everything that went into my body was nutritious um was a diet that would keep me strong and then alongside my training um it became a routine and it was non-negotiable I think that was the thing for me And it all comes back to the philosophy of give yourself the best opportunity and the best chance. Yeah. And is that, when you say non-negotiable, is that a decision you've made solely with yourself

or whether other people around you that you felt you had to sort of push back on? Did some people say, are you sure that's good for, or, you know, and not going to say, don't be your greens. But I mean, with the training and the instinct, you have, obviously, you've now have all the medical research that backs up your instincts. Yeah. But during that time, was that a resource you had or is this more self-motivated? I think it was, well, it was research that I'd already done.

So I did a lot of research around exercise. And I was, I was really lucky that my oncologist was a national health trainer for cancer. So he was, I mean, I was a delight when I turned up and said that I lift weights because that was, you know, for him, that's a holy grail. That's what he wants all women to do that have just been diagnosed. So, and met, not just women, not just women, but men. So a lot of my mom was, oh, no, I don't think you should be lifting. I don't think you should be doing that while you're going through the treatment. But it became a prescription for me.

It was as important as my chemo. And now I am exactly the same. So I will go and train and it is a non-negotiable. For my kids, they'll say, I can't do that until later. I'm going to go and train. And is this going to a gym or do you have things in the house? I go to the weightlifting club. So it just became part of, it's just part of my life.

And don't get me wrong, there are some days. I haven't trained for three days. So I'm going to Mitchie to get back to train because I've been away. And I do take a break and I do get tired. But I know that it's from my benefit in the longer term that I have to go and train. It's like it like a prescription. And how often if in an idea a week, how are you figuring your training into? Because your day job as well must be taking up.

Is it sort of like a nine to five-ish? Kind of is. Yeah. I work full time. So sometimes it's a slightly early morning. start so I left the house at 5 o'clock yesterday morning and I'll get back 6 o'clock tonight so you know I'm in and out of the house early and then late but it's Monday to Friday but so I negotiate time around that either at the end of the day or the beginning of the day but actually sometimes and I think

other people should think about doing this when you've got a really super busy job you need to almost like cut in the middle of the day stop go and exercise and start again and the organisation I work for us really supportive of people getting timeouts and well-being time to support it. So I embed it into my working week. It's almost like my diary management is done and then I fit my weightlifting slots around it. So it just becomes a routine. So I know exactly when I'm training at what time. And ideally what you'd go every other day or five times a week?

Five times a week. Yeah. It's my flat. I train five times a week. Yeah. So good. Yeah. But the kids have been great.

So they understand, they know that I have to go and train. Well, how does it, how has it affected their relationship with their bodies and the conversations you might have around that? I don't think anyone spoke to me about exercise in that way when I was growing up. It wasn't really a conversation that was ever had, actually. Yeah, so we talk about it all of the time. I talk about their diet and the balance of protein and exercise. The garage has been converted, so I've got weightlifting.

area in the garage. My 17-year-old son, he plays a lot of sports, so he's super tuned into it. We do a protein shop every week together, and we get quite excited about the different flavours of protein shake that you can buy. So he's completely tuned into it. He gets it. The other two, not so much. They know the importance of it, but that doesn't mean to say they're going to do it, does it?

But they understand that it's very important. But I do try and train them to eat differently and to, you know, they'll actually go and exercise. My daughter plays a netball. She goes and plays netball. It'll filter in any way, though, because I think, you know, when you get to your, that age of your teenage, especially 17, you're looking outside of the family home and it's about your friends and what's happening there. But when you get older, you sometimes then revert back to a lot of those patterns and conversations. And I think even being able to navigate knowing what's good for you is really a really big advantage. Yeah.

Because I think, I mean, in our house as an example, we're quite traditional. I think for me, like our relationship with movement and food is more to do with, I don't know, I suppose, what I grew up with. So home-cooked meals and being active, yes, but not so much the structure or the components of what's on the plate. Whereas I feel like, with the way my kids are accessing information, my 60-year-old will come to me and say, I want to now eat, eat. like this or I've been searching up these types of meals and recipes that will support what I want. Yeah. Which can be quite hard. I mean, even my 10-year-old will say, oh, I want to feel healthier.

I want this than any other. And you think, oh, am I doing enough to, I don't know, we can't help? I mean, did you grow up with parents that were quite active then? Have you, has any of this been taken for your childhood or has your relationship with sports and movement and body been more from yourself? My mom played counter netball. Oh, the netball thing's pretty. The netball thing has gone through the family.

Not that you could tell by my height, but yeah. So my mom played a lot of sport as well. My dad played football. My granddad. He was a cricketer. So it was kind of in the family. And I just carried on myself and my brother played sport throughout our school years and then beyond that as well.

So I just enjoy it. It just makes me smile. Like playing sport just makes me smile. No matter what it is, I just enjoy it. And going back to a time when you're going through your treatment, is there anything at that point, did it, apart from you doing your own research and building it into what was happening, did it ever get, I mean, I suppose you had your oncologist who's very pro that, but is there generally a culture shift at the moment about getting more people involved with that side of things for themselves to help themselves with the treatment?

Yeah. I think my oncologist just recently went to a conference down in life. and it was one of the key areas that they discussed was exercised during chemo. And there's recently, as I've been a trial that showed a 30% reduction in recurrence for people who have done strength training and exercise, which is higher than the medication. 30%? Yeah, which is higher than the medication. So it's, when I say it's a prescription, for me doing that is more important than me

actually taking my medicine. But combined, it's amazing. So you're 30% less than it. likely to have recurrence and that's actually a higher rate than the medicine itself is giving me. The medicine alone, if you throw an exercise and your medicine, it's 30%. Wow. It's madness, right? Well, I think it's, yes, it's pretty well, but I also think it's so encouraging and

it just shows how, firstly, how you have to handle these things so holistically. Yeah. And lifestyle choices, but also I think that lends itself to a lot of optimism. because it shows that you can actually, for all that time when you're feeling, so I would imagine lost and slightly at the mercy of it, to have something that you can actively build into your day that will firstly give you, you know,

will actually benefit you, but secondly, we'll give you, I think that thing of the blank space in your brain and not being able to think about stuff. I mean, just having that pause, that punctuation. Plus, the life you're going to live afterwards, and the longevity, you know, we do now know that cancer is something you can live alongside, get through, live past, it will become part of the majority, you know, is it, I think it's

one and two now, isn't it? One and two, yeah. So for 50% of us, this will be something we experience. But then you're much more likely for there to be at and after, and how much better to be stronger, fitter, facing the future, feeling better about all those things. Yeah, absolutely. And you made a really good point then about the control. It was the one thing that I had control over.

Planning my exercise, planning what I eat, that was for me to look after. That was within my gift to make sure that it was optimal. And again, comes back to giving myself the best chance. And I think everybody owes it to them, but to me, certainly to my kids. And to my family, I owed it to them to give myself the best chance of coming through this. But that would be the same for everyone, right? It would be. But I think it's brilliant because I said you've been so good about listening to that instinct

and then actually acting on it and then you get to reap the rewards afterwards. But talking about the more difficult aspects of your experience, what advice would you have for people that are navigating this? I mean, I'm thinking of you as a single mom with these very, you know, your much wanted family. You've found yourself in this situation. where, I mean, I think you said before we started recording, you called your house Team Dawn.

When did it become Team Dawn? Was that when you first moves into the house? Yeah. Yeah. So that takes on extra significance as well when you're, you know, facing things that you've got to get through like that, unexpected experiences as a family. But when things are tough and when the kids are asking,

when they're not filled with the strength to feel that, what's the positivity, how did you navigate that? And what was helpful for you then? Yeah, so I had a really good group of friends around me that I could be super honest with. And they were my weightlifting community, an eclectic mix of people, a fascinating mix of people, but the most supportive mix of people and alongside my family as well. So whilst I didn't want to burden my family and I didn't talk to them, because it was very close to them because I was a daughter or a sister or the mother.

mother, but the weightlifting community, so evolution, shout out to evolution weightlifting, were amazing. They were there to support me how much or how little. So we had a pre-chemo night out and we talked about what it was going to look like. When I went to train, they made sure it was safe. The environment was safe as well, so everything was sanitised. But I would, I've been in chat groups with them all the time. I lost my hair, but nobody ever saw me without any hair. So I had a very clever hair system. My daughter just couldn't cope with it.

But I chatted to them the whole time about it. And it was, you know, how are things? I've had my new hair put on today. And it just became a conversation without any judgment. And, you know, if you can find friends like that, I'm not saying everybody's going to find an evolution. weightlifting community, but you've got friends, find those friends that you can be super open and honest with because that makes a difference.

That makes a real difference because it's the honesty that keeps you true because if you bottle it all up, then I think you would really struggle to cope with the day to day because you're just hiding everything. And actually, I think it's important that you talk about everything. And my nurses, the oncology nurses were amazing as well. I go back and see those girls at least once a month. Do you? I go back and see them.

Yeah. They were brilliant. Why do you think that's become an important thing to do? I mean, aside from the fact that you obviously like them as people, but why do you think you need, you feel it, find it comforting to kind of... I needed to keep going back so I could deal with a trauma. Because when I first went back, it was for a routine appointment and I'd pop in and see them. But then I started going back when I didn't need to go there. So, but the first time I did it.

I found it quite traumatic. I can't believe it was actually me that walked through this door and went through this treatment process. But now I walk in and it's helped me. It's helped me get over it. It's said that it served, you know, I mean, I love going to see them. And I'm always taking bits and bobs in. And quite often they'll drag me in to speak to a patient as well while I'm there,

which is brilliant. But part of it was me healing and getting over the trauma and actually going back to the same place that I had the treatment. Because every other Thursday when I was going through chemo, that's how often I well. was every two weeks. So it gave me a shudder every time I woke up in the morning to go. Yeah. But yeah, so that's why I did. But, you know, anybody that's going through this, they know,

you find out who your real friends are as well. I can imagine that. You do. You find out who your real friends are. And you then stick with them, I think, for life now. I've kind of been through that process. Yeah. Yeah, finding people that can't judge you. And you can just be really honest with. Like my hair jokes were quite funny and I lost on my eyebrows as well and then my eyelashes

but I could go and see them and feel safe whereas I wouldn't have gone to the gym on my own I wouldn't have gone to the main gym but I used to go to the weightlifting club I wonder as well with the going to see the nurses

I mean you spoke at the beginning about how you feel your dawn again and you kind of come you lose your personality a bit but by going to see them now you're bringing your real self not just the you that's putting on the brave face or compartmentalising or going, you know, the patient you're now going in and sort of incorporating it into your world now.

Yeah. And it probably, I can find a sort of philosophy in that actually of not wanting to feel like you had to do that anymore. It empowers you to sort of. It's my choice to go back and go and see them as dawn. Yeah, 100%. I can absolutely understand that. And for you to go in saying, now I'm not a patient. I'm here because I want to talk to you about all the other things I'm up to.

Yeah. Can we talk a little bit more about the weightlifting community? Because I want to know. So you said they're a fascinating group of people. So are these people from all ages? All ages, all walks of life. That's so cool. So we've got an anesthetist, surgeon, somebody who works in project management,

somebody works in IT, police officers, myself in the life sciences. There's some people that are. actually in sport and fitness. I'm going to miss people out, and I don't want to do that, but it's an eclectic mix of individuals. So I think it goes up to 59, that is the oldest. But we've got youngsters now at the club as well. So I think they're 12, 10, 12, the youngest lifters.

Really? Yeah, yeah. So cool. They're the children of some of the adult lifters. But, yeah, it's, I mean, we socialised together. we do so much stuff together and when we all compete to have that support

and genuinely know you've got that support like we could be in tears when somebody competes and does really well we've gotten so close but it's a trust that I don't think can ever be broken and it's because we've been through so much stuff together and yeah you can pick up the phone to any of them and they'll be there for you

but Sam again he's developed that community because the club only opened two years ago. Oh, right, okay. Whilst he was coaching at a normal gym, he was a coaching at a normal gym and he had a smaller unit where he could coach like two or three people at a time. He opened his own weightlifting unit

into, no, it's been 12, 14 months. So he's created an amazing community. And yeah, if you can find a community like that. Yeah, I can really get a sense of that And I really get a sense of what you give each other in that completely non-judgmental, pure, you know, foundation level support. Yeah, 100%. And you could sit in silence as well some days, just drinking coffee and sat in silence. So it's, you know, it's just a really nice environment to be in.

That's perfect. And do you find you're good at looking to the future without, you know, can you allow yourself all of that? I think probably over the last 12 months, no, six months I have. Yeah, I have. So I've got holidays booked in. I'm taking the kiss to Barcelona. I'm going to drag them around the city and they can see all the sites. Always have a family holiday book well in advance.

But, you know, I want to plan things, whereas I was quite reluctant to do that to start with. I still get scansiety. So I have a scan every May. And probably for six weeks prior to that, I'm quite nervy. But I do feel I can plan more now. I can really think to the future. So, but I still, every Christmas though, because I was, I had chemotherapy on the 23rd of December. And I thought, is this going to be my last Christmas?

Because you just don't know. You just don't know. Yeah. But every Christmas, I always make sure it's a good Christmas. So I still have that a little bit in the back of my mind. But, yeah, 100% more positive. I think you've got to be. You've got to be.

And, you know, I've been through this whole medicalised process and every inch of my body's been checked. So I'm probably in a better position than a lot of other people. But yeah, you have to be positive. You have to plan things. We just don't know what's around the corner anyway, do we? No. So I think we have it to ourselves to live every day. That's the one thing it's made me realize.

Yeah. It's just enjoy and live every day. Yeah. And I can imagine that when you've had that thought, about the last Christmas, that's very hard to ever lose that completely. It kind of becomes somewhere, you know, all the visuals of it and the sounds of it kind of stays a little bit there. But, I mean, how wonderful that not only you're here to tell the tell, but you'll definitely be sharing something that will absolutely help other people with their experiences.

I'm so glad that we met on the train. I'm glad that I invited you to come over and talk to me and I'd like to finish with firstly if I'm thinking about the weightlifting as a woman in the mid-40s what would you recommend is a good way to make it part of my world get yourself a trainer a personal trainer learn how to do it properly you don't need a personal trainer forever but go learn how to do it properly don't injure yourself is one thing I would definitely yeah the paramedic in you don't do that and make it part of your life don't don't just make it a thing that you do every now and again, make you part of your life and understand why it's part of your life. Good advice. And can we finally end with what kind of thing, what weight are you pressing?

What is the winning? What does it take? How heavy are you talking? So I can snatch 45 kilos and clean and jerk, 55. That was what I just recently did in front of the cameras on the BBC. Actually, I got a personal vest. So that was good. Yay. That's so good. Maybe he'll be filmed over, may be shown over the new year. So I actually did it on camera. That's incredible. But I've got new goals. New goals.

So I want to be able to clean in Jets 60 and snatch 50. Amazing. So let's see if I can hit that by next year. It's going to happen. Oh, Dawn, here's to you. And thank you for such wisdom and sharing with me. Thank you. Thanks so much.

Wow. What a captivating. Listen, thank you so much to Dawn Williams for sharing her story with me. Isn't it incredible when you sit alongside people on the train, walk past her in the street, these stories people are holding. I mean, honestly, when I looked across around the train, I would never have thought this woman was a, you know, a weightlifter, let alone an Olympic British weightlifter, let alone a cancer survivor. And so recently, honestly, I think dawn's an incredible. spokesperson for her experience and the benefits of weightlifting. I mean, as a woman in my mid-40s,

I'm aware that weight-bearing exercise is what I'm supposed to be doing anyway. And it has inspired me, actually. I've been thinking to myself, I've got to do more of that. I want my joints to prepare me for the next bit, please. And I know producer Claire is feeling the same way. So that's already two people, that she's inspired. But also, I think it's incredibly impactful the scientific research that supports the training you can do during cancer treatment and how it can stop you actually from having it recur. That's incredible. So thank you so much to her. I'm somewhere a little bit quieter now.

I'm walking through a sort of botanical garden bit. It's just such a pretty day here. Melbourne can actually be really changeable. When I was here last weekend, it was actually flipping from warm to cold, but today has just been really nice and toasty, sun cream weather, so good. And tomorrow night,

get to do my first ever headline show in Australia, and it's at a beautiful venue called The Forum where I saw Confidence Man Player a couple of years back, it's wicked. They were wicked, but it's also a wicked venue. Anyway, so thank you so much to Dawn Williams for talking to me. Thank you to Claire Jones for producing the chat, Richard for doing the edit even one more on tour

thank you darling LMA for the gorgeous artwork and you for your ears you lovely lot thank you so much I have I have more more gifts to bestow on you

as the season continues more chats that have already done some this is I mean they're always eclectic but this is a really eclectic series in a brilliant way we're swinging all over the shop in a really good way It's exactly.

You know what, when I first started the podcast, I was like, I want to have voices. People might come for the voices and faces that they know, and they might stick around them to hear the stories of women they don't know. But I love it, I love it, I love it. Right, OK, OK, OK, thank you so much. Have a lovely, lovely week, wherever you're up to. And I will see you next week. And sending lots of love to Dawn and her family.