Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 181: Dr Sian Williams

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

Dr Sian Williams is a journalist and broadcaster and author. She trained as a trauma assessor while working at the BBC and is a registered counselling psychologist. She presents the fabulous Radio 4 series and podcast ‘Life Changing’ which I totally recommend.She has 5 children, the eldest being in their 30s, the youngest 17. Sian told me about having her glorious and unexpected first son when she had just got her first job in the newsroom in London. She also talked about how she values her close relationship with her step daughter.Sian has just published a new book called ‘The Power of Anxiety: How to Ride the Worry Wave’ which talks about turns sensitivity into a strength. I felt instantly relaxed by Sian’s beautiful voice and gentle counseling manner… and almost revealed all my deepest secrets to her!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Spexter and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it all work. I'm a singer and I've released eight albums in between having my five sons, age between seven years old and nearly 22, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a little bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates.

Hey, how are you? I feel like it's been a while. I don't know how much I've shared with you about how this podcast works, but basically when I started it, oh, golly, six years ago now, I thought, right, how do other people do podcasts? And I decided, right, I did 10, 10 weeks on, month off, 10 weeks on, month off. and the month in between and the month off is usually more like five weeks and sometimes six. So, yeah, I guess it's been about six weeks, hasn't it?

It was my intention to make it a month, but as I probably shared, the podcast is a pretty dinky little thing, really, in terms of its infrastructure. Obviously, it's me. Host, researcher, guest booker. Then there's my producer, friend Claire, who sits with me on 95% of the recordings, makes exquisite edit notes that get sent to Richard. And then Richard, my husband, does the edit. And then we have Ella Mae, who does the gorgeous artwork.

That's actually it. So what that means is, if, for example, Rich has been away working with the feeling for a week, like he was, a group before last, and I say, oh, we were supposed to the podcast go out again, start a new series on Monday, it can sometimes get a little woolly. That's okay, such is life, and if your podcast is called Spending Plates,

and it's about being a working woman, who also happens with raising a family, I feel like these little bits and bobs of actual life getting in the way of publishing my podcast, it's probably pretty much accurate for daily life. So there you have it. And the main thing is, don't worry. I got you.

I've got some amazing guests. Really, really nice women. So it's been a joy. I've already done very, I'm very pleased with myself. I've already recorded seven episodes, I think. So when I booked, oh, sorry, noisy drop, booked another one today. I'm on my way home from, I just did a school trip. My fifth and smallest child was very keen that I come.

on a school trip. And there was one in the diary and I could see that actually I was free that day, which you know, as you know yourselves can be an unusual thing. And then I was like, look, it's all booked up. The parents are super keen. It's done. I said the only way I'd be able to go on that school trip with you, Mickey, is if one of the parents dropped out. Yesterday morning, lo and behold, a note on the WhatsApp. We've had someone drop up. Can anyone step in? So I was like, ah, shucks. Farewell free Friday. Off I go to the Science Museum. You know, you know, know what though, it's sweet. There's something quite interesting, isn't insightful,

seeing your small person and how they are in a school environment. So, yeah, also it gets me of the hook for doing a few more. Anywho, today's podcast guest is actually someone whose podcast they host is my favorite podcast. It's a podcast sort of name.

It's also a, you know, bona fide radio show. It's called Life-Changing. It's a Radio 4 program. so on BBC Sounds in podcast form it's half an hour long which is great because you can kind of fit it in from beginning to end in a journey pretty much but also it's fascinating

and it's a topic I'm super interested in myself because it's about how a single life event can actually change your entire life and once you're the other side of that event there becomes a real concentric circle the before and the after of what happened on that day. at that time. And it's all sorts of stories. Some of them really immediately positive,

but a lot of them involve intense trauma and a point where your world, as you know, it has absolutely vanished with one single moment. And some of the guests are just so articulate about these extraordinary life experiences and guiding them through it is Dr. Sean Williams. She's a journalist, she's a broadcaster, she's an author, she's mother of five, four biological children and a stepdaughter, so she has two, something to get this right for you, two sons in the 30s, she has then got a stepdaughter and another child in 20s, and then a teenager at the bottom who's 17. I think I've got that right, it's all in the blood. And she, oh, immediately, had just such a soothing voice. lives and lives a very interesting life. She's trained as a trauma therapist to first responders and she's registered counseling. Oh, sorry, hi to work. Registered Counseling Psychologist and, yes,

Radio 4 broadcaster. And she's also just published another new book called The Power of Anxiety. So all talking about anxiety and how it shapes us. She herself had had moments of high anxiety woven into her personal and her professional life. So speaks to experience, has studied how anxiety works, has written this brilliant book, which kind of can be your little companion for when worry comes to spend some time with you. I don't think there's many people anxiety leaves alone forever is there. Sometimes it can be something you've always known you,

maybe you're a bit of a worrier. For other people, it can be triggered by different events. but anxiety, there's healthy worry and then there's the point where it slips into dysfunction. So, I mean, look, I know I say this a lot, but I do feel like I could have spoken to Sean about lots of different things all day, but I had to condense it for you into roughly an hour.

So here we are. What a joy to be back. As I said, I've got some lovely people lined up for you, but this is a great one to start with, and let me tell you this as well. Sean's voice is going to relax you, okay? I don't know how stressed you're feeling generally, but just once you stop listening to a voice,

you're going to feel all your muscles are going to just like, hmm, release the tension. So how nice is that to give someone? Good stories, good anecdotes and good wisdom, and the ability to relax. Perfect. All right. I'm going to go wander home from this school trip, get the kettle and have a cup of tea, have a lesson back with you,

and then I will see you on the other side. Good to have you back. And if you're new here, Thank you for showing up. Welcome to your spending place. It's such a lovely thing to sit opposite you, Sean. I'm really looking forward to it, and it's funny because I know there are so many ways we could fill our time in the conversation. You've done so much in your career and are doing so much.

So I could talk about your news journalism, broadcasting, your trauma counselling, your book, your podcast. I'm going to start just with a little bang-gall moment for your podcast, because it is, out of all the podcasts, listen to it. It's my absolute favorite. It's been my favorite for a very long time. Life changing is the podcast and I find it all kinds of everything actually. But I also really notice what a brilliant interview you are with the people who sit opposite you. Most of whom might not be very used to being interviewed about something that's very personal. And in a nutshell, it's when someone's experienced something that's like a sort of pivotal moment, a moment of trauma that's shaped the future path, whether they were knowing it or not. And so I think you are clearly a very good

listener, very gentle with people. And I think one moment that really stayed with me, you were speaking to a woman who's, he had two children with, oh, it was so sad. They had, their genes meant basically they had a life expectancy that was not, oh. And there was one point where she was talking about her daughter when her daughter died. And you just really gently. said you don't have to tell us this and i thought it was so caring it really honestly it really got me even thinking about it now gets me hard i know me too me too she wanted a white christmas didn't she yeah she wanted to give her daughter a final white christmas yeah there was lots of beauty in that conversation yeah but um i think also sitting next to me is your your new book so i think we should

start here and like we could quite easily spend a whole hour talking about anxiety. But why don't you tell me about your relationship with anxiety? Well, anxiety is one of those funny things because it is both a clinical necessity. So we need it. And also it can get in the way. It can be not helpful. When it's switched on and it is helpful is when it reminds us that there's, I don't know, there's a knocking in the car and we need to get it sorted or something in a relationship or a friendship doesn't feel quite right and we need to pay attention to it. There can be lots of ways that anxiety goes,

oh, here we go. And we feel it in our body. We feel it obviously in all the thoughts that go ricocheting around our head and we see it in our behaviour. When anxiety is less helpful is when it stops you being the person you want to be or doing the things you want to do.

I'm lucky in that anxiety didn't stop me doing the things I really wanted to do. I don't think I could have done a radio and television for 40 years had I had the kind of anxiety which I know can completely rob you or for yourself can keep you inside away from people and places and opportunities and those are the people I work with but it's always been there and it's it's a lifetime companion for me and I think sometimes it's in the foreground, sometimes it's in the background, sometimes it's helpful, sometimes it's not. Perhaps the journey into psychology was partly to try to understand how best to live with complexity, difficult emotions that pop up and you think, what do I do with this now? But, yeah, so I was very sensitive as a child and a warrior.

and I remember being told to grow a thicker skin and to not be too sensitive. And I think, and you're frowning because I know you are a sensitive and compassionate person who understands that sensitivity is an absolute gift and it is not something to shut down. We don't need to grow a thicker skin. And I understand why that was the narrative,

you know, if you think back to the 60, 70s, I'm saying I want to go into journalism. That's a rough-dy-tuffty-old business. And for a sensitive soul, I could see why those who love me might have said, and not also for you. They're trying to protect you, I guess. Yeah, of course they are. I understand that. And actually, I did want to do it. And I think being sensitive has helped in both journalism and psychology. And in the book, I talk about highly sensitive people who are likely to be more anxious. and experience the negative more intensely, but they are also adaptive, creative, intuitive, empathic,

they think and feel deeply. Those are amazing skills. So it's how then do we, if we're highly sensitive people, and I don't know whether you've done the quiz there, I'd be really interested if you've done the quiz in the book. But if you're a highly sensitive person, you are more responsive to music. you're more responsive to art.

It is a more intense and deeply felt experience for you, but you have to look after yourself in it. And I think that's what, hopefully, part of the book is about helping people manage that stuff and go, don't try to fight anxiety because it's going to be there, but appreciate the difference, appreciate when it is helping, when it is harming.

Notice, acknowledge, accept, and then act, what can I do with it? Is it productive or unproductive and unhelpful? Yeah. And spotting that difference can sometimes be quite hard. First, your voice is lonely. I feel like all my muscles are relaxing when you're talking to me. It's really nice. If I had any anxiety, it would be completely evaporated at this point. But, yeah, I completely agree. I'm, I suppose, The way I've termed it, if I'm ever having conversations around anxiety,

is to do with if it's helping functional or not functional. Yes. And just keeping a bit of a watching yourself. And look, this book is so timely. The world is so rich. And you can be walking in one direction and looking at one thing on your phone that's making you laugh. And then the next second, it's something completely horrific.

And you're being bombarded. And there's uncertainty about world politics, there's uncertainty about the environment and complete transparency about the chaos of those conversations as well. The I don't know's ring very loud too with what to do next for lots of things, lots of opinions. So I think, you know, this is a really big moment. And obviously you've also, you've seen you'll have to be navigating your own experience with anxiety. And also, you've been raising and continue to raise, five children. So you have your sons in their 30s, year old is two, and a stepdaughter in her 20s, and then two teenagers at the bottom, 19-year-old son, 17-year-old daughter.

So that's a lot of people. It's a funny thing, isn't it, when you're mothering someone. And there's almost like this moment in childhood where suddenly they realize there's a whole world out there and that lots of gray areas exist. And so how to navigate their worries and also your own. As a sensitive soul, how did it feel to become a mother? Surprising. I was in my 20s, late 20s.

I think I was 26 actually when I had my first son. And he was glorious and unexpected. And I thought, I'm not quite sure how to perform this role. I remember one of the first things my dad said, because I was working in Liverpool as a local radio reporter, and I'd just come down, I was coming down to London, you know, bigger job, Radio 4. And as a producer, my dad said to me, what about your career?

And I thought, yeah, how am I going to manage that? Because it was already quite a male environment then. My mum was absolutely thrilled. And I thought, how do I do this? I'm not sure what the role means. It was a really strange and glorious and chaotic time, I think, because I didn't tell anyone at work that I was pregnant until I was seven months. Wow.

How did you manage that? I was small and I hid it well. And also I think because I was new to the newsroom, they didn't really know me well enough to go, oh, hang on. So what was your instinct about that, just that you wanted to keep the focus on what you were there for? Yeah, I think it was, I felt I had a lot to prove. And I didn't want anyone making a judgment based on me leaving to have a child or, me not being fully present or whatever else would have come up, whatever narrative I suspected, although I probably suspected wrongly, might come up.

I felt this is a big job for me, you know, loads of people who were there at the time were Oxbridge and I wasn't. I was, there weren't that many women who worked in that environment. So I wanted to leave, I guess, my private stuff at home to be dealt with privately and my work stuff, which is all encompassing. And I say is because it was and still is. Of course it is. It's very immersive stuff. You've got deadline. I mean, you know what it's like. You're a performer. I mean, we do very different things. But you know when you're going about to go on stage, how things, I mean, we're talking about anxiety. You know, I bet there are sometimes when anxiety shows up for you when you're about to step out there. And you need to be in the zone. You need to be in the role, don't you?

Definitely. This is who I am now for this role. Yeah, absolutely. Does that make sense? Yeah, completely. And I'm a sort of person where if I'm feeling very nervous about something, I won't normally say anything. I kind of just pretend it's not. I model how I want to be treated until I've sort of,

on it until I say, and then afterwards I'll be like, I was actually really nervous. That was a big moment. So there were lots of moments like that and me thinking, oh, should I talk to somebody? Who do I trust here? Lots of going into the loos and having a little, and coming back and go, you can do this, Sean, you can do this. So it was a, it was a strange time and a glorious one. And sometimes I look back on the pictures of me and Joss, who's now 34. And I'm a child looking after a child, not having a blueprint, not knowing none of my friends had children. For quite a while, I just did not know what I ought to be doing. And then how to manage this with a very intensive job where I was leaving the house at half-past six in the morning, getting back quite late.

I was still quite new in that environment. We had somebody living next to us an amazing, amazing woman called Anne, who was Irish. She had a very big family, Anna and Mickey. They had about five kids, I say about, because they had more kids after that. A really warm, glorious, loving family. And Anne said, you look like you could do with some help here, because I was, My mom and dad lived miles away. And I said, I really could.

And she said, well, I tell you what, you know, let me look after the kids. And she, when I had my second one, a couple of years later. And she did. And she was just, it was a lovely environment for them to be in. And it was just next door. And until I worked out, how am I going to do the working life and also be a mother? And it was, as we all do, it's a, it's, you often. think you're not doing it, you're not doing either job as well as you could. And I think it's

watching out for that perfectionist bit of you that goes, because your mind is elsewhere at the moment, you can't be a professional or because your mind is elsewhere at the moment, you can't be a good mother. And it can feel very polarized. And I think it's understanding that care and love and attention are enough. And it's learning. We're all learning. We're all trying to do it as well as we possibly can and just give ourselves a bit of space and compassion

to go, you're doing a good job, actually. Might not be perfect, but you're doing as well as you can. There was a lovely instant when I decided with my first, well, I don't eat meat. And I thought, well, let's see. if I can bring up this child not eating meat like mine. So I did these little puree ice cubes, as you do, a sweet potato and banana and all these things.

And I remember taking them around to Anne. And I said, so this is what he's having today, those are his because we're weaning and blah, blah. And then I get back from work, and he's in this loving, chaotic household eating Irish stew. I knew you were going to have some meat. That's four months. and like big proper hunks of, you know, meat.

Wow. And I look at teeth, that's challenging. That is a challenge. And I looked at her and said, I was hoping he might be vegetarian. And you're all on, see, she turned to me and she said, you can't be a vegetarian all day. Oh, my word. And I just. I don't have an on the podcast.

It was so funny. And so she was just thinking, well, she's clearly, you know, we need to feed him well. He needs to have a proper meal in him, this hungry baby. It's given some decent food. So, yeah, so anyway, none of them, none of them are vegetarian. Wow, but she sounds pretty amazing and I love the idea of this household because it sounds like in your working life. And actually you said in your friends, you were the first one to have this baby and maybe there wasn't, wasn't that many women in your work environment where you felt like, you know, there was a reflection of what you were dealing with. because it is a lot to go from those two things,

particularly as even before motherhood entered the picture, it sounds like you were feeling like you had something to prove maybe to your dad a little bit saying, he said, stay away from this career, and you've gone, I'm actually going to do that. And then you're thinking, okay, now I've got the new job, but I'm having a baby. But I'll leave that till that point.

Then I'll announce it, sort that out and kind of muddle your way through. It's quite a lot of things to juggle at once, I think. I think it's a lot of things to juggle when you're in your 20s. Yeah. I mean, now, you know, having my stepdaughter in her 20s, having seen my two big boys, boys through their 20s, it's a complex time and a different time for them. And I see the complexities that they're trying to wrestle with, as I'm sure you do with yours. You look at your kids and you think they are different challenges that they're facing. but they're no less complex.

They take a bit of, I don't know, they take a bit of navigating without sometimes you having all the information at your fingertips to be able to do it in a way that you'd like. So yeah, it was an amazing time though. What an opportunity. And I was in Liverpool and Manchester and Leeds and Sheffield before I came down to London.

Right. So I did the most incredible, quite intense. and sometimes difficult news stories and knew that this was the job that I loved, knew that this was what I wanted to do. And so being offered an opportunity to work on big current affairs programs that I used to listen to as a kid, the world at 1 p.m., the world this weekend.

You know, it's just, and now I'm working on them. And then I'm actually putting them out on air. I'm the one in charge of the running order who's going to say, this is the news today. and we're going to deliver it to you at one o'clock, you know, or that's mind-blowing for a 20-something-year-old. So it was exciting, it was thrilling, it was challenging, it was, you were learning, you were like a sponge, just sucking everything up. And it was, yeah, yeah, I mean, it was a fascinating time when I look back on it. Yeah, and never a boring moment, I bet, it's just completely sort of.

of lots to thrive on. If you're hungry for it, there's a lot of nourishment. There is, but, and I guess that's the thing about news, isn't it? And I was in news for 35 years, daily news. And the thing about it then, of course, is that nobody got in touch to say you weren't doing it right. I mean, like feedback. Yes, apart from your bosses, who would say. I'm sure. But there was a lot of trust there as well. I was given a lot of trust to run a program quite early on in my career, I think. And there are some bosses who will say, right, it's up to you. And if you mess this up, that is your mess up, but I will support you in your mess up.

And that's quite liberating and also scary. I remember sending a message to them on a computer, my overall editor when I was editing the world this weekend and it was a big old day. and I said, I'm going to lead on this. And there were just two words he sent back, which were brave choice. And I thought, oh, what does that mean? What does that mean? What does that mean?

Thumbs up emoji? No, no, that. It was just you're on your own girl. You know, you've got to do this and just brave choice. So you were given freedom and responsibility at a time when you still felt quite young. That's probably the best time to make those. Just go for it. Just go for it and make the mistakes of which there were plenty, plenty of mistakes.

And I think it's actually having people around you who are forgiving and who have, who say to you, I have been where you are. And I trust in who you are, but I know you're, you know, I know you're learning. I know things will go wrong. And they went wrong plenty of times. And in fact, when I first started on the ten, in 1997 when News 24 started as a rolling news and I went from production which I loved to presentation which I was a bit unsure about there were loads of falling off air and just the order queue not working and the wrong uh straps or Aston's or names over the you know over different

picture I mean it was just I thank goodness that there's not much out there which will remind you of how we were all learning in that in that space and place. But yeah. But all those layers that have gone into all the experience of it. There's a lot to be taken from it. And I'm wondering your latest skills that you, you know, did a new degree in psychotherapy and having to become a counsellor, what were the raw ingredients of that that were present then? Because I guess you're dealing with news stories and how to deliver the news.

It comes down to individual stories and individual voices and how did, what were the seeds of that talent. Yeah. I think when you're speaking to somebody who is in a difficult and dark place and often in news, you will be talking to people and it's their worst day ever. That's what news is. And you're sent there to be witness to that and to hear. hear their voice and then if they wish it to, to be able to broadcast to people to let them know what's happening, to be transparent about the thing that this person or these people are experiencing. So it's a huge responsibility and when you first start doing it, I'm not sure,

are you aware of that responsibility? You're aware of the weight of emotion and how much of it can you take on? And what do you show and what do you not? How do you protect people who are vulnerable in that place? Yeah. Yeah. What's part of the news and what's something they've just, yeah. They're sharing without really knowing what they're sharing. Exactly. Exactly. Because sometimes somebody who's grief-stricken, and I remember this in the late 80s covering Hillsborough disaster, somebody who's in shock might not be aware that they've even spoken to you. So true. It's so you have to be so mindful from the very beginning of your responsibility as a journalist. And I think, so I was, I was very aware of how carefully you have to handle somebody's life experience and their vulnerability from quite early on.

I'm not sure I felt I had the skills to be able to hold that in ways that I felt fully confident about. And I trained as a trauma assessor in the BBC because I had seen my colleagues coming back from similar riots, disasters, tragedies, war zones, difficult. You know, cases of child abuse where they were sitting in a court endlessly, that kind of stuff, and thinking, I don't deserve to have these emotions that I'm feeling because it's not my suffering, it's somebody else is suffering. And then that guilt leads to more trauma, more difficult. more struggles with emotion.

And I thought, oh, this is interesting. And how can we best help the storytellers so that they can still do their jobs? And actually, that's what I'm doing now in the NHS, but in another way. But at the time, at the time, I trained to be a trauma assessor where you're with somebody,

a fellow journalist, who's been on something difficult, and you're not going deep into the emotion. you're hearing it factually so they feel safe and contained. And then you go back to them a bit later and see how they are and if there are any flags that suggest held trauma. Because obviously in a traumatic event, you are going to experience difficult stuff.

And that's normal. So it's a normal response to an abnormal event. And anyone who's experienced difficulties or trauma or grief or loss or suffering will know that. the sudden feelings that come up from nowhere that perhaps you've never experienced before that you go, what's this? That is normal.

But it becomes something that's more difficult when it becomes long-lasting. So I trained as a trauma assessor. And then I had a very complex and difficult at birth with my third son. And he was born without oxygen and he was ill. and I was in emergency surgery because I suddenly lost four and a half pints of blood very quickly

and we were both very sick and are very lucky. And also he took a long time after, I mean, thank goodness he was okay. He took a long time to come into the world. He wasn't fully, didn't seem fully present. He wasn't engaging. It was hard to connect. Do you mean like, when you talk about months there or weeks? Oh, well, yeah.

Yeah, and longer. And then he had fits for the first four years of his life. He had fits. So, and I thought, we're going to have to learn how to manage this little brain. Because this is different to the other two. And I was working at the time. I was still on BBC breakfast at the time. So I felt I needed to manage this and then just manage the family

and go back to holding family and work. and it was a very different situation that I was in that now looking back I think oh that was a lot yeah it was a lot and I think that's that and also having seen what I've seen push me into doing a

there was a master's science master's program that came up at the University of Westminster in psychology and it was about the brain how to understand the brain and I thought yeah that would be useful to know We might all need that, but especially me and him. And I signed up to it, not thinking it would go anywhere, but just thinking I've got a bit of time now because I'd been doing BBC breakfast. And in 2012, when I had more time, when it moved up to Manchester and I couldn't go with it because of the children, I thought, I've got a bit more time.

Now I'm doing a weekend job. I can do this. I can do this psychology. And so I did it. And it was some years after Seth had been born because we were still trying to work things out, I think. And I did the Masters and absolutely adored it and thought, wow, I love psychology. I love the brain. What lights up?

Which bits of the brain light up when we're traumatized or struggling or anxious or compassionate or mindful or which bits of the brain do that? And then how does that affect the way we think and feel and act? behave. That was so thrilling. I did that and was aware of my perfectionism in that as well because I was determined, having been quite an average student, I was going to get really good marks. And sometimes when I didn't, you'd get somebody saying, yeah, okay, well, you know, scale back because you're learning and you're going to fail. And that's quite grounding, very grounding. But yeah, So I did that and then I did a counseling psychology doctorate, professional doctorate in counseling psychology. So that's how.

It's so fascinating. Oh, I think you have an interest in people. And I can hear that when you're interviewing. You have a compassion and an interest and a fascination. I do. I think you would love it. Yeah. I mean, I like your description of doing a degree when you found that you had like young children.

and we're still working. I think some people's response to finding their diary loosening would just be like, okay. But I love the fact that you were like, I'm going to learn more. I'm going to do an actual degree. I think I would find it fascinating. I just hope I've got, I think I might be a bit lazier than you, Sean. Do you think? I don't think you know until you're in it.

Maybe so. I mean, I definitely think, I definitely think the counseling aspect of it I find fascinating. I think there's such a privilege. and people sharing their stories. I think there's so much wisdom. I think there's so much, for once a better time, healing that can come out of the conversations. Yeah.

And I mean, there were a lot of things I was thinking about while you were talking. I was thinking about when you were training as a trauma, special, no. Yeah, so I was a trauma assessor. So it's assessing trauma rather than, because I didn't have the skills to manage post-traumatic. stress disorder. So is that a role you were doing? You said you were doing it with your colleagues. Yeah. But was that a role that was already existing? Did someone help you with that, for example?

Yeah, so I was trained. Okay. And I think I... But I mean, when you were first reporting on things, was someone checking in on you as well? Did you, was there some, was there that, was that, was an interesting question. Because sometimes I feel like there's a bit of a gap with those things that comes quite late when the, when enough people have said this has actually been very difficult for me. is when the mental health of the reporters might have been noted. So when you're coming back from Hillsborough, is anybody checking in on you? That is such an interesting question,

and nobody has ever asked me that. That's quite a big thing, I think. You're basically being accountable to something that maybe wasn't very accountable to you, I think, in some ways. I wonder whether, had somebody checked on me, I might have done what I see so often now when I'm with journalists or emergency responders who I work with in the NHS,

firefighters and police officers and ambulance workers, who say it's my job. It's what I'm paid to do. I've been doing it for X years. I'm doing this one thing now and tomorrow it'll be something else. Or later in the day it'll be something else. Yeah. There is no time.

to pay attention to how I am in this. Yeah, where does it go though? I know. And also, it's not mine to hold. It's theirs to hold. I don't feel, I think I probably, certainly in the late 80s and coming from a family that didn't indulge emotion. I think, and I use that word indulge emotion,

because I think that it might have been seen as a bit of an indulgence. that I probably wouldn't have heard if somebody had said, how are you? I might have shut it down because there is simply too much to be getting on with. Yeah, I can understand. And I hear that all the time now. Since I've qualified as doctoral counselling psychology, I'm with people all the time. And a lot of them wait until they're broken to go, okay, now I can't do, can't live the life I want to live, I can't work, my relationships are breaking down, I feel flat,

or I'm constantly vigilant, either way there's a feeling of I don't know what's going on here, but I've come to a bit of a dead end and now I need help. And I think what we need to do is catch people further upstream. So at the time, yeah, of course it would have been helpful perhaps for somebody, if they had asked how are you for me to take a moment to think about how I was

or to process. We don't, a lot of us and I think this goes with a lot of people in life and just before we started talking on air we were talking off air about how quickly, how busy life can be and how quickly life can go

and how we're often not present reflecting on what's here now And I think that that can be the case as well If you're working and you've got children There is always a to-do list There is always something else to be looking at That means that you don't stop and think And sometimes thinking can feel dangerous

So I haven't got time to bring that stuff in here Do you know what I mean? Of course I mean I just think things have a habit of catching up with you at some point Yeah they do They do. And the other thing I was thinking when you were speaking, I'm really sorry you had such a traumatic time having your third baby.

That's a lot to go through, a shocking amount of blood for you to lose. And your poor bubba having repercussions from the birth is a lot to carry. And I do think there's a lot of trauma that can people that can experience when they're having a baby that gets swept to one side when the baby's here and nobody does the things we do. to just go, ah, the baby's here, flowers, balloons. And I think you see a lot of walking wounded post new birth. And I don't know, couples, single people, I don't know what's around them to deal with that,

when the headline is, your baby's here and you can go home now. I don't actually know where that goes as well. No, you're right. Your baby's here and safe. And of course you are profoundly grateful that that's happened. Yeah, and you know that's what you're hoping for. And you know that's what you're hoping for. Exactly.

And also, because you can hold the two things at once. You can be profoundly grateful for this child. And also, you can be thinking that was tough. And do I have space now to acknowledge that? Yeah. You can hold both. I think it's hard for many to do that because of the demands of being a new mother again or being a new mother for the first time. Exactly.

There are so many competing demands that allowing space for your own stuff, again, might feel a bit too overwhelming or threatening or dangerous. Sometimes, Sophie, I think it's not until somebody notices it in us. that we don't see it in ourselves. That's very true. And I think also you haven't got loads of experiences to compare it to. So I think then there's always a story of someone first hand or second or third hand who had a worse outcome. So you feel maybe you're letting yourself sit in an emotion that you don't need to give it that much space

because actually you're the one who got lucky enough to bring them home. Yeah, you know. Exactly. I think those comparative anecdotes that get swashed around. I think you're right. Can maybe mask being able to say, actually, that was really tough. And I don't know if I'm quite the same person as before. But then, I mean, you have obviously had a baby after that as well.

How did you feel about your fourth pregnancy after that? Well, I was going to ask you about yours because you've had five children. Yeah. Were they all very different? Yes. And actually, I had my. most complicated ones first without knowing about other ways of doing it. So I had my first two prematurely.

I had something called preeclampsia. Yes. So I had Sunny two months early and then Kit two months early. And they were very small babies. My second baby was £2.6. That was definitely, there was a lot going on with poor kit. I mean, he's 17 now. He's the same major children.

You would never guess it in a lineup. He doesn't betray his tiny, tiny statue. at birth. I remember listening to you talking to Jacinda Ardern, the former New Zealand prime minister, and she was talking about, and hearing you talking about that and how you connected with those tiny babies, the importance of connecting when they are surrounded by white beeping machines. Yeah, and finding your role as a new parent to them when you feel a bit useless, actually. and you can't have visitors

but I had a very good example of my sister being born early and that really helped because I'd seen her be happy and smiley so I thought right well that's what we're heading towards and I mean I must have been gung-ho I had another three but I do sometimes look back

I think finally that was enthusiastic it's funny I don't think I really much like what exactly the themes we've been talking about I don't think I really stopped to think about it too much And I think I was just very keen to grow a family above the noise of the what might be's. And I think that, I don't know, I don't know what that says about me. That's a good phrase.

Oboptimism. Above the noise of the what might bes. I suppose that could tally with your, the anxiety actually. Yeah. Because would you agree it's quite an epidemic at the moment? What happens? Or are we just talking about it more? Has it got better visibility?

Oh, gosh. That is interesting. I suppose it's hard to answer, really. Well. The conclusive one, isn't it? How are we going to know what people didn't tell us? I think at the moment there's a lot more information for younger people to process and a lot of things coming at them, some of which is useful and some of it less so because it's disinformation or misinformation. And I think filtering that is a tough job.

for them. And also, perhaps financially, they're facing more difficult times than certainly I was, I think. It felt a lot more linear. Maybe that's the wrong word. But the complications of trying to find a job at the moment and sending out loads of CVs to be judged by AI before you sit in front of a real person facing that level of rejection is tough, tough. And also, can I get on the housing ladder? Do I want to get on the housing ladder? What are my finances going to be like? How long do I carry this student loan for?

The world looks really frightening at the moment. There's a climate crisis. Is there anything I can do about it? I was talking to my children about this actually at the weekend. It was Mother's Day. And they came down for Mother's Day. And I asked them, that's good. Yeah.

Right way around. And I asked them, you know, what is what is it now that is making young people anxious? What's the main thing? And it's not, of course, one thing. It's a whole plethora of stuff that they're navigating. So is the world a more anxious place than it was? I think young people are dealing with an awful. lot of stuff that was different when I was growing up. And I think they've had to develop some

pretty good filters to work out what's worth attending to and what isn't. And part of that is understanding what they can do and what is outside their control. So controlling the controllables. And there's a lovely study in the book which is about young people who engage in some form of of sort of eco-activism. And that can be a litter-pick or just doing something local, really small. But those who are most anxious about what's happening in the environment become less anxious when they play a part, however small that is. Yeah. Because they're engaging with the community, they're connecting.

And I think that kind of thing can help with anxiety, where you go, this seems overwhelming. Okay, what can I do in this circumstance? And we can all do a little bit of something because the world is uncertain. So how do we navigate uncertainty? We learn to live with uncertainty by saying what's productive worrying, what's unproductive worrying, what's habitual worrying. If I can do something about the productive worrying, it's productive and it will help me. unproductive worrying probably isn't very useful at all where your brain just goes round and round with all the what ifs that you can't answer. Yeah.

But being able to do something, however small, take small steps, is part of what it's about and noticing it. Oh, here it is. And saying, it's not your fault. This is anxiety trying to keep you safe. This is anxiety trying to keep you out of danger. Yeah. And it's, okay, now I've noticed it, named it, accepted it, acknowledged it.

What can I do? And seeing where it shows up in the body, a lot of people try to outthink their anxiety. So they spend loads of time in their head going through worst case scenarios and catastrophizing. And I think if you're thinking, that can stop you feeling. And if you're all feeling, that can stop you doing. And if you're doing, that can sometimes mean you're trying to escape thinking and feeling or withdraw from it or ignore it. And it's how do you hold all three together to say this is a thinking, feeling, doing thing? And therefore I need to act on all three levels.

Yeah. And you know, you said, going back to the birth and you said, how was it with a fourth? The anxiety about the third birth could have stayed in a perpetual worry. the feeling was I acknowledge actually that that was a lot harder than I acknowledged at the time I now know actually it was a health visitor who said oh we might need to do something about this you know do you realize this that and the other that was that was helpful but but feeling anxious perhaps about the the fourth child because of the third child experience not not allowing the what ifs and the catastrophize it catastrophizing to

take hold, not allowing the kind of, you know, the heart grip of emotion to stop you doing things or the stomach tightening, which keeps you so rigid and thinking, what can I do? Well, what I could do was speak to the people who are the experts in this area and say, is it likely to happen again? If it does happen again, what can we do? Is there anything preventative we can do? And Evie was born by Caesarian and it was a very different experience. Completely different experience. But it's the, is there something I can do to navigate this? And think about it, feel it, but then do it.

Yeah, I like that. That's, as you say, the controlling the controllables as a way of giving yourself, taking stock of it and feeding back into like, right, what's the practical takeaway from this? If I do that, will that mitigate some of the things that are providing me? with this worry. Exactly. And it's about having an anchor in the storm. If you think about anxiety being like an emotional storm,

which can toss you, toss your little boat over and leave you struggling in the waves, if you think about just anchoring, how can I anchor? Very often that's a grounding technique or a breathing technique. How can I be here now? Not thinking about that trauma that happened in the past. Or that thing I was told in the past about not being good. enough or worthy or lovable or not being listened to, not being heard. You know, how do I acknowledge that? That stuff is there. It's part of my past, but not let it influence your

present or determine your future. And it's being kind to that stuff or you in that stuff in the past and going, and I'm here now. And what do I do while I'm here now? And I think that sort of breathing, the connecting, the grounding stuff is helpful as an anchor in the storm. I really do. So it's it's the acknowledging, the connecting and the engaging that you need to engage, engage with yourself and the outside world. And I think a lot of engaging is about reconnecting with your values. What things are important to you? You know, what's the stuff that when everything else falls away, you hold closely to your heart. They may shift your values. If I asked, I'm going to put you on the spot a bit now, if I asked what your values were, what would be the first words that

would come to mind for you? First thing that popped in there, well, I suppose family and kindness are quite intertwined actually. Don't overthink. No, I'm not. I'm just trying to think of what I'm not thinking is right answers. I'm thinking the ability to express yourself without judgment, actually, and be given a good people who accept you for who you are and help you sort of navigate life in a way that means you can rub alongside other people, keeping yourself intact, but also not upsetting people along the way. And I think, yeah, prioritising, nurturing the relationships that matter to you actually. I think you can't just settle for, oh, that will take care of itself because of what has been. I think you have to walk in the present with yourself and with the

people around you that matter to you so that you can all keep marching forward together. I think those things really matter. That's so interesting. So that's, so curiosity. Yes. Yeah. Oh yeah. Being curious is actually one of the best things you can be like. Yeah. Because you are curious about other people. Oh yeah. And I think that's also like all the people, I think. I love spending time with the curious people. Yeah. It's such a nice feeling. I much prefer it to when I thought I knew everything.

So that comes with uncertainty, though, doesn't it? Being curious comes with a dose of sort of feeling not sure. And actually not sure is a good place to be because that means that you are more open to the stuff that might be in your periphery. If we're certain, safe certainty is quite a rigid, dangerous place to be. Yeah. And being, having safe uncertainty and being curious and open and, oh, okay, let's see what comes up. So I think you can play more in the gaps. They can't.

Yes, you can have more fun with risking, not working at how you think or if you do that. I suppose I'm very lucky because I work in a creative space, so I've been allowed to nurture that side of me and keep it alive. and I know everybody's lucky enough to play for a living, so I do appreciate that. So play, play is a value. Definitely. Having fun. Having fun. Yes.

Connecting. Yes. Being compassionate. Yeah. Being happy in the doing without wondering, without having a goal or mind that means that it rests on really. Yes. That's served me well.

Everything would fall apart without that, I think. Yes. Because you realise that is the thing. I think when you're younger here, it's all about, you know, the climb and the lads. And of course, that's unique. that. That's actually helping you out because that's when you're working out who you are and working out the values, I guess. But then when you get old enough to be able to still be playful with it, it means that you can, that whole goal of like this must be into that.

If you can alleviate that a bit, then the value is in every day and they're living more in the moment, I think. Yeah. I think it depends a little bit in what suits your brain, though. some people really like to have a bit more of a trajectory. I get a bit unnerved if I start thinking and how will I feel in a year and a half or something. I don't know. I'm not very good at that. No, I think it's about a psychological flexibility, isn't it? It's about having a flexible approach to what might come up.

Because values and goals are very different, I think. I agree with that. And I think probably, you know, with your, and with her big family next door, when you've got all these the chaos of a young family yeah you realize pretty quick that whatever objective you thought you had it's not going to work out that way so you're so right i mean it couldn't it couldn't i've never had a five year 10 year 20 year plan ever no i've just thought this has popped up and seems interesting yeah what what do i think it would be like if i tried it and can i try it without it having to be the best without it having to be, I must do this really, really well.

You know, who, and I think it's worth asking if that, if that thought comes up, is, is, who's, whose, whose judgment or expectation are you doing this for? Oh, that's always a big question. Yeah, who's praise are you still seeking? Is that something you ask yourself? No, I think it's, but I think it's, I think it's for, for all of us. to sometimes ask ourselves, what is behind this and the feelings that come up? Are we trying to do it to prove to somebody else that we have worth and value?

Is it enough for us to do it and to fail and make mistakes, but to just bring that curiosity to it and see what it's like? Because whatever happens and wherever you go with it, it'll reveal something to you that you didn't know. be useful to you in a way that you didn't know. I think sometimes a lot of people are guided by a self-critical voice and that self-critical voice can come from somewhere. Definitely. It might not be theirs. It might be theirs. It's probably not most times I think. And it's loud. It's, it's one of those things that is so much louder than a self-compassionate one. Definitely. And many people haven't

been taught to be self-compassionate. It feels selfish. It feels indulgent. Agreed. And it's not. It's definitely, as you say, when you think about how you, your family, you know, you said yourself, your childhood family maybe didn't indulge emotion or chat. But you've obviously in your half-household have made it a very big part of how you live your lives. But then you will see that roll out and now you have your, I do want to know that with your conversations and engagement with people's trauma, where do you, how do you deal with it? Where do you put that for yourself? Where's that being stored? Well, I think when you start, and I guess I started doing this professionally once I'd qualified about five years ago, but I was doing it for three years prior to that in training.

When you start, it's hard because if you've been a problem solver, and I think as a parent, you have to be a problem solver because stuff is thrown out. You only think, what do I need to do in order to get this sorted for whoever? Yep, relatable. Okay. So you tend to be a bit of a problem solver. And actually, in journalism, it's very much, okay, what are the top lines here? You know, what are the facts?

And it's bish-bash-bosh, and that's the story, and out it goes. And you can do it not in a tidy fashion because news is never tidy. But you can write the story and the story is and it goes out. and then something else the following day. When you're working with people's lives and their emotions and their deepest, most difficult stuff, it's untidy and it's messy. And if you bring a problem-solving perspective to it,

it'll go wrong. And I learned that really early on in training. It's not your job as a psychologist to solve people's problems. It is your job to be with them to help them navigate the difficulty and the complexity of emotion that they're experiencing. Because they are the expert, not you. You know, you, Sophie, are the expert in your own life and your own emotions. If I were working with you, I'd be alongside navigating with you and looking at some of the things that came up and being curious and interested, where does that come from and how does that show up and what does it say? and what is it, does it make you do something?

And if so, what is that? And how can we work with that? But it's not saying, I know, Sophie, you've got this issue. What we need to do is that. Because that doesn't get you anywhere. So the solutions come from the person who's sitting in front of you. That makes sense. Not from you.

However, when you're starting, you feel like you've got something to prove. And you want to help people. Of course you do. And so your immediate instinctive reaction is, right, let's do this. Because if we do this, it'll take some of the pain away. And it's a lot muckier than that. And you have to go to the dark places and stay in the dark places sometimes. Stay in the stuff.

Because it's when you're staying in the stuff that you look around you and you go, oh, okay. Right. What do we do now we're here and where has it come from? I remember being with one guy who was a journalist who had a, post-traumatic stress disorder from being in Iraq when he thought his team had been blown up with a rocket that had come overhead and smashed into the office. Luckily, they were all okay. But he developed post-traumatic stress disorder. And what got him out was exploring what he described as the labyrinthine sewers in my mind. And he said, what you find down there can be quite dark, but it's also quite interesting, tells you quite a lot about yourself. And there's a philosopher, Danish philosopher called Ludwig van Dichtenstein. Ludwig van Dittgenstein. Every time I say his name, Ludwig van Wittgenstein.

And I've probably still said that incorrectly. Wittgenstein said to his students, you must go the bloody hard way. Because when you go the hard way, it's nasty, but when it's nasty, that's when it's most important. So there you are with people trying not to solve. Now, what you do with their stories initially is you try to work stuff out. It's like being a detective. All right, well, maybe if we try this or try that.

And instinctively, because you've been taught a lot of different techniques, you'll go, right, maybe CBT didn't work, but maybe psychodynamic will work. Or maybe person-centered will work. Or maybe all these different tools that I throw at it will work and stick. Something's going to stick. And I think it's being comfortable in the uncertainty and the silence, which was new to me. In journalism, you don't keep, in radio, you keep the needles wagging. Otherwise, you'll fall off air and they'll put on an emergency program. So you don't want dead air.

But in therapy, the work is in the pause because they are doing their work. I'm trying to give a pause. to process that and what was coming what was coming up what was coming up in the polls I was thinking oh no not here

not in the podcast you'd fall me into thinking I was having a session any time I have two last questions for you I wanted to know when I knew we were going to speak today and I was thinking about anxiety

and motherhood I was thinking motherhood is pretty ripe ground for a lot of new anxieties, not least worrying about all the things that can happen to your kids. So, oh, I did actually want to know as well. When did you become a stepmom? How are you? So how was your stepdaughter when you met, I should say.

She was eight. She was eight? Yeah. And she's now, literally. And she's now, oh, it's 20-odd years, yeah. Yeah, that's a big relationship. I have a step-parent who I met when I was seven. I think it's quite a fascinating dynamic.

And I always say I've been raised by four parents, not two, because happily for me, my mum and my dad both remarried before I was 10. And they didn't, and they stayed with those relationships. So, and I have siblings on both sides as well. Yeah. So, yeah. Do you know what's really interesting is that my stepdaughter doesn't call her step-siblings half or steps or they are brothers and sisters?

Yeah, they are, you know, my three brothers and my sister. And from the very beginning, that was what it was. I know as a step-mom, I've got a different role to her mom. And but as far as the children are concerned, they feel, I say I have five children. I have a, as I say, I have a very different role to the role that she has with her mother, but I still feel as though she is one of the kids. Yeah, she's part of the family. Just one of the kids.

Yeah. And so, yes, maybe navigating that to start with is always going to be, oh, this is different. Yeah, you've got to find your way, I think, a little bit. You've got to find your way, yeah. Yeah, both of you. But it does come right. Yeah, it does. And I just, I'm so thankful that they are with each other and that when I'm no longer here,

they will still be with each other. They'll still be supporting each other and looking after one another. and when my kids were down for the weekend, we were listening to music because I've got to choose a couple of tracks that have meaning to me for something I'm doing called inheritance tracks, whereas you inherit a track

and then you give one to your children. Good name, inheritance track. It's really good, yeah, yeah, on Radio 4. And so we were running through all these different bits of music that have meaningful all of us, And that is so lovely. And I just think those things, those connections will still be there when I'm long gone. Oh yes.

And it will connect them to their childhood and their parents and also to one another. Yeah. That's the power that you have as a musician and a creative to have something which holds people together when words are too much, when it's, when emotion is too much. much, you know, that you can. Oh, yeah. No, I do, I do notice that music is the art form. People choose, you know, first dance at your wedding, the song at your funeral. Yeah.

You gave birth to. There's lots of times when people have a soundtrack where they wouldn't, they appreciate all the arts. But that's, it's a real privilege to be part of that. Yes. That collectors. I do, I do understand that. And, you know, obviously, my family have loads of our songs like that.

So I do. Yeah. I love that. And when people tell me, if I've, We've been lucky enough to be part of their life somehow. I'm like, oh, I take that as a real compliment. I do. I like the fact that's how music works.

You will be. You'll be part of so many people's lives. It's so special. It's so special. And we know that, you know, all the research suggests music lowers cholesterol, our stress hormone, can boost dopamine, which is the reward neurotransmitter, that it takes us to people and places and moments and memories that might be hard for us to access otherwise. It's like a, it's an incredible. short cut. It's crazy really when you think of how much it can do in your brain and how instinctive it is, you know, like people would say, oh, you're children, musicians, but I'm like, what child

doesn't respond to music? I think it's a real, it's part of how we're mapped, really. Oh, and a baby's first words or babbles, that's music. Nature is full of music. So lovely. It's, it's all around us, isn't it? It's everywhere. But I just think, and I don't know what made me, oh, it was the weekend. It was connecting with certain pieces of music that hold us all together as a family. Do you have a piece of music that unites your family, would you say? I think we've got a few. Have you? I've got lots of songs.

Yeah, definitely. I took us down a different path there, so. That's quite a happy one. Thinking about family soundtracks. Yeah. But yeah, how do you think for when you do have your small people at the age where they leave the home and they have funding for their lives, how do you deal with that anxiety of where they are and what they might be doing? And actually it kind of links to the other question I want to ask you,

which is with your experiences through life-changing, you must have lots of these cautionary, or at least this awareness of all the ways life can change on a dime. Oh, yeah. Do you pass these cautionary tails onto your kids? And how do you deal with the what-ifs of when they're out there, not knowing where they are? I think what life-changing has taught me, and psychology to a certain extent, but it is that it's not the thing, it's your reaction to the thing. Okay.

Which determines how you are going to deal with and cope with and live with that sliding doors moment or that turning on a dime where something happens and you're thinking, oh, hang on, how do I manage this then? So whether it's, you know, somebody who had a brain tumor who looked at his reflection and saw half of it in dark. and it was monstrous and half of it in light and it was angelic and thought, I need to capture that image and became a painter who is now showing in some of the top galleries in London, a famous painter.

You know, he could have had that not happened to him, nobody wants a traumatic experience. Had that not happened to him, though, he would not be that person. Yeah. So life can throw us the curveballs and obstacles and hurdles and however you look at it.

And it's the how you work around them. It's the what you do with that thing. So I think that, although they don't listen to a lot of what I do and they don't watch a lot of what I do. Yeah. I bet they receive your wisdom though. Oh, who knows. Who knows whether they receive it. Oh, come on, you're such a good listener.

Like your teenagers must love it. Well, I don't know. It's quite hard to get through to them sometimes. I don't know, actually. I like the chats from teenagers. Well, I do too. It's kind of my favorite bit of parenting. lot more switched on than I am. They're a lot more emotionally engaged. I did say to my son the other day, the one who has a

wonderful and different brain, I said, you're happy, aren't you? And he said, no, ma'am, I'm just emotionally regulated. And I thought that was such a funny and lovely thing. That's brilliant. No, mom, I'm just emotionally regained. Okay. And then my daughter saying to me, I know, isn't that great? I almost want that on a t-shirt. I'm just emotionally regulated. I'm not happy. I'm just, like. emotionally regulated. I love that. You can have that. What a wonderful way he sees the world, but I also completely get what you mean.

Yeah. Well, if you do get T-shirts printed, can I have one? Yeah. I think we could read your book and then I'll wear them. Yeah. So that's, they are, I think they are wiser than I was at their age when I felt I was just fumbling about as a young person, a parent, trying to find my way. They do seem wiser.

They're certainly more connected with their emotions, yeah. Evie, my youngest, who's 17, she did say to me once, I'm not very good with conflict. And I tend to, I know what my behavioral tendency is, which is to withdraw and avoid rather than to be with. So, and that goes back a long time for me for various different experiences. And she also said to me when she was angry, you have to be here. to hear my anger. So I needed to stay in the room and hear her anger.

When she was 12, she said that. So I think they are much more emotionally regulated perhaps than I was. When they go out into the world, it is understandable, absolutely understandable for us as parents to worry because all the worst case scenarios,

especially if we don't hear from them, come shooting into our brain. Yeah. And I think being aware that that's understandable, noticing when it comes up and thinking, how helpful is it that this is going there? I remember when my son, and I think this is a feature maybe of the fact that they connect with us in ways that I certainly couldn't connect to my parents. When I went away, you know, I backpacked around Thailand and Spain and Portugal and did the most, did risky things, actually. And they were, none the wiser. Now we know.

Yeah, I think that's fair. We know where they are. We know where they're, well, sometimes we know where they're going. And therefore, if they don't connect with us, we think something has happened to them. And we think it's our job, as it, of course, is, to protect them and look after them. And therefore, when we don't hear, the brain fills in the uncertainty gap with things that might have happened. Yeah. Because the brain hates a vacuum.

and knowing that there's a vacuum and knowledge, it will come up with stuff. What if there's this? What if they've hurt themselves? What if they've been attacked? What if they've been attacked? I mean, it's endless. The number of scenarios that the brain can come up with.

Yeah. That I absolutely know that that has happened when one of my sons went off to Mexico on his own. And we all said to him before he went, all you have to do is drop a text message saying, I've arrived. Oh, no. Or every now and again, not asking for it every day.

Yeah. Every now and again, I'm here. It's all okay. That's all I wanted. I'm guessing he wasn't so good with this. Week three, week three, I am Googling. Have there been any disasters in Mexico? I am looking for answers where I know it's going to take me to the wrong place.

Yeah. And I really had to pull myself back from that. And actually it was his. sister who, I don't know how she got hold of him, but she said, ring your mother. She's driving as mad. So I think we have to acknowledge that there's going to be uncertainty and worry there. Is that productive? If it's not productive, can we let it go? Or can we schedule a worry time? That's also quite a good thing is, I'm not going to worry until 10 past 6 until half past 6 tonight. And often when you get to 10 past 6, the stuff that you were worried about has dissipated.

It's not so important and urgent. But yeah, I mean, it's, you know, we want to keep all our children safe. And it doesn't stop, does it? Well, that's why I've been laughing while you've been talking because it reminded me. It doesn't stop. Not long ago, I went to the corner shop and my phone ran out of battery when I was on the phone to my mom. And when I come back, there was like she'd called Richard. He was out on the doorstep.

I've literally gone to get milk or something. She thought I'd been attacked or hit by something. So I'm going to pass this all onto her. We all do it and it's normal and it's understandable and we can forgive ourselves for doing it because it's our natural instinct to want to keep the people we love safe. Indeed. Is it productive? Is it helpful? If it's not helpful, then let it go. If it is helpful, we can do something about it.

Well, she did something about it. It's nice to know she cares. Oh, she does care. She speaks very fondly of you. We end up being at a lot of events together. That's sweet. Because we support the same charity, me and your mum. So, yeah, she's always. Yeah.

She adores you. And thank you for such a brilliant conversation, but also I'm going to do the quiz. Are you? I know where it is, yeah. I was looking at it only this morning. Oh, please do the quiz. Because what I love about the quiz is that it shows whether you're sensitive in different areas and also whether you're sensitive to the negative or the positive.

Yes. You have to know that about yourself, don't you? Yes. And I think when you engage with it, it'll perhaps show you perhaps. I mean, I think you're quite intuitive anyway. You may know all this stuff anyway. But for me, when I did it, it was a bit of an aha moment. I knew I was highly sensitive, but actually it makes sense that I'm highly sensitive in these areas.

So connecting with people, interpreting or trying to interpret their response. Sometimes that doesn't always work. but I know that my sensitivity is in something called emotional reactivity which is my own emotions and other people other people might be more sensitive to music arts which might be yours

or you might be all of them and then it's and now what do I do with it and what we know it's the difference between an or kid and a dandelion which is a lovely theory by a paediatrician called W. Thomas Boyce who said the dandelines are like sort of hardy and they burst up through the cracks in the pavement. They're always there and very

resilient. And the orchids are fragile but also magnificent. They can wilt in the wrong environment, but in the right environment, they are magnificent. How do we help our orchids to thrive? We give them light, so early morning light. We keep them green. We immerse them in nature. we show them love. We make sure that they have, or if they don't have, we help them learn how to be self-compassionate. And those things, we give them the right soil and the right light and the right nourishment, and they are magnificent. Yay.

Here's to the orchids. Here's to the orchids. Let's have more of them. Absolutely. Oh, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure talking to you. It really has. I really enjoyed it.

Thank you. Thank you so much to Sean and actually I still need to do that survey in her book. But I have been reading it and it's fascinating and helpful. I've actually found being able to talk through how anxiety works, very helpful for not just myself, but for people close to me when they're going through similar things. So yeah, she's doing a good deed for us all and do check out life-changing the show she does. Honestly you'll be gripped. Some of those stories, man.

man, they just never leave you. And I've actually done that thing of listening to some of them twice because you're just so blown away. And sometimes you find yourself pretty moved as well. The people who come on, I think it's a mixture of people that the BBC have got in touch with and people who've reached out. So you often get that nice thing where people are kind of ready to share, talk through something. So it never feels like you are, you know, people are oversharing.

It feels like a space where people feel safe to explore all the things. emotions that came out of that and finding themselves an unlikely member of the club of, you know, having had a life-changing moment. I must confess I lied to you about having it's up a tea because I still haven't got home. I've been wandering around. It's actually quite a nice day and the school trip finished a little bit early so I've been able to get on with some other bits and bobs while I've been out. I've actually got to start the whole process of secondary school options for my children.

and university auctions for my second. And I don't know massively what I'm doing with the uni thing. I've never really done that before. My eldest just at a foundation in London, quite straightforward. So wish me luck. New chapter of education begins in the Elizabeth Jones household. Anyway, I'm rambling. I will see you again next week.

As I said, more beautiful, wonderful guests. It's so exciting. So thank you to Richard for doing the edit. Thank you to Claire for her beautiful producing. Thank you to LMA for the glorious artwork. And, of course, thank you to my guest, Dr. Sean Williams, for being so generous with their time, her wisdom, and to you. It is you who gives me your ears and stops this being just me

talking out into the ether to no one, which actually, right now as I'll record it is. I actually know there's a dog looking at me. It's not to exactly know it is at all. It's in K-9-1s are leaning in. All right. Sorry, I can tell that I've got. a little bit of a Friday feeling.

I'm just happy to be relieved of the duty of counting small children that aren't my own and them just not listening to me on a school trip. What's that about? I was never that defiant. Anyway, all right. Whatever you're up to this week. Have a lovely one. I'll see you again soon.

Thanks so much, Ray.