Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 185: Becky Barnicoat

Episode Date: June 8, 2026

Becky Barnicoat is a cartoonist who has recently published the paperback version of her memoir ‘Cry When The Baby Cries’. It’s a cartoon depiction of new motherhood and it makes me laugh out loud. Sleep deprivation; the tricky time-consuming bedtime routine; the body after birth with deflated stomach and huge boobs; and perky youthful-looking parents pre-birth compared to the same couple with their new baby, but now looking haggard and baggy-eyed. Brilliant obsevations!Becky started out as a journalist writing horoscopes for Bliss magazine and then junior editing at The Guardian, but drawing cartoons was always her first love and she’d get up an hour early every day to draw before work.Becky told me about her journey to motherhood, going through fertility problems, and then how she chose to enjoy every minute of her pregnancy rather than worry all the way through it. She now has two boys age 6 and 8. Becky and I went to the same school and I’m pretty sure I know exactly which teachers she honed her cartoon skills on - and they very much deserved it in my opinion! Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sophia L'Esta and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it all work. I'm a singer and I've released eight albums in between having my five sons, age between seven years old and nearly 22, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a little bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates. It is Sunday morning, nearly 11 o'clock, and I'm having quite a crazy week. I feel like I need a massage. I don't know about you, but I only get a massage maybe like once a year. I think I'm approaching it. I feel like my body is saying,

why have you been doing so much travel and weird stuff this week? I started this time last week. I was already on my way to Emmeritt Stadium to DJ for the Arsenal team post-parade. I should say the teams, all the men's and women's team and all their friends and family. The Emrit Stadium, that was a pretty wild Sunday. Then Monday took the kids to the circus, went to see gorgeous Giffords, who very sweetly and absolutely joyfully, from my point of view, have put freedom of the night into their show.

And I was just beaming, because I love Giffords anyway. We've been going for years as a family. So I'm just making some tea for the teens. And yeah, what a joy to be included in their magnificent show. And if the circus is coming to your town, do go and see it. It's really good. It's really thoughtful. There's a live band.

It's got a really good playlist. Obviously, star of the show is all the talent of all the performers. They are incredible. How does circus performers know they can do that stuff? Imagine the practicing when you're like flinging yourself under the air to land on two other people's shoulders. I don't know. Anyway.

Tuesday, I did my radio because I had to pre-record it this week because of work commitments. So I then flew to Stockholm. Wednesday saying in Stockholm flew that night to Budapest, Thursday a gig in Budapest. Friday flew home. Scooped up the kids into the car, and Richard went down to a campsite

because it was the primary school camping weekend. I did one night at the campsite. Then I left yesterday morning to drive for about four, four and a half hours to get to Western Supermare, where I was there for a gig and I was greeted by Gail Force Wind. I mean, I'm talking,

my spidey sense was like, is this safe? And eventually it was deemed unsafe. So I was always, already I was in my seat quins, I was in my heels, I was ready to go, and then a guy came over and just said, no one's going on that stage, it's not safe. So I missed my slots so I couldn't perform, so then turned around, got back in the car, drove another three hours back to London. So in total yesterday I spent approaching eight hours in the car, but actually absolute hats

off to my tour managers up. He also drove himself an extra bit of time either side, so he probably spent, I'm actually thinking about it. He must have spent about 12 hours driving. Anyway, I think that's possibly what I've woken up with my neck a bit stiff. Richards and I were driving home from the camps up with the kids, and then today we're off to Southampton for another show, which would be lovely, but it's busy.

Next week's really quiet, actually, so this is all me just riffing off a very silly week. Not every week is like this, but this one was particularly kind of, a lot of, like, wiggling around and how I make it work. One thing that came out of the weekend though that was really lovely is when I got back last night

my big boys so my two teenagers and sannie they waited for me and we all eight slapper together so that was actually very sweet because I missed them too anyway how are you?

I hope you're doing well I hope you've had a really nice week I have such a gorgeous guest for you this week delightful Becky Barnacote who makes such beautiful drawing she's a cartoonist and I really

love her work. It's got a beautiful quality and also she tells stories through her drawings. She has a book that's just been released in paperback now called Cry When the Baby Cries and I would absolutely recommend it as something you can give to someone who is entering parenthood because it sums up the glory and the absolute crazy chaos and sleep deprivation. That is new parenthood. Although actually her story in the book starts a little before she came to mum because she was on round after round of IVF. I had a very long fertility journey which Becky is very generous and open about when we talk. She now has two little boys who are six and eight and yeah, I just found absolutely fascinating to hear how you become a cartoonist and develop your style and, find your people. She writes and draws for all different manner of publications from the New Yorker

to The Guardian, but also how she was actually kind of deterred from embarking on that career path when she was young through some of the teachers at her school, which for me, I was very easy to imagine given that it was the same school I went to. So we had some of the same teachers. And isn't it amazing? It's crazy, isn't it? And I'm sure you've got the same examples where the decades can roll by, but something a teacher said to you that made you feel diminished, it stays with you for life. It's crazy. I can still remember their faces of those teachers. But yeah, poor Becky being told that, so she had to sort of rebuild her sense of self. And actually, she's been so successful. That must be gratifying, but also frustrating that,

you know, she was told to back away from something that actually. she's really good at. Anyway, it's a joy that she came over. It was really nice to chat to her. And yeah, there's lots of lovely bits of this story. I think one of my favorite things actually is something that Becky shared about how, you know, after all the desire to be a mother and all the years that went into that, as soon as she got found out she was pregnant, she gave herself permission to just completely enjoy being pregnant and let fall away the kind of what-ifs and the worry. I thought that was really a really good. special and I really sort of appreciate the fact that she made a mental decision for that to happen.

Here we go. This is Becky and I and I will see you on the other side. I'm going to go and wake up my teenage boys now because it's no little left. When I knew I was going to speak to you today, I had this idea that I would put next to the microphones some paper and pens so that we could draw while we spoke. Yeah. But then I thought it would probably be a bit annoying for producer Claire with the sounds. But if I was just like, like to see you in your, how often are you pen in hand? How much a part of you is drawing? How much part of me is my pen? I was infused with my body, yeah. That's such a great question. I would say growing up, we were inseparable. And partly it's just school, isn't it? You have a pen in your hand, but I drew through every lesson. I just, if I have a pen, I'm drawing. And that's always been like a compulsion and just unstoppable. And it from that kind of developed this, I don't know,

what came first, the pen or the love of drawing. But yeah, I do remember picking up a pen as a kid and being like, I want to do this for a living. I want to be a cartoonist or draw children's books. And I was very focused, even from my very little age, that that would be what I wanted. And so nowadays, it's just having had kids, it's all sorts of things in my hand, but not always a pen. So I think I did put the sort of 10,000 hours in before the kids came. And so, yeah, I mean, if I have a pen, I'll be drawing with it. Yeah, that's so lovely. And what a little companion, I imagine, it is.

And it's also a pretty glorious word to say, you're a cartoonist. It's such a lovely word. I was actually looking up the derivation this morning because I didn't really know where it came from. No, I don't, so thank you. Please tell me. This might be my search engine failing me, but instead it came from an Italian word, Cartone, which was for a large piece of quite thick paper

that artists would use before they would do a fresco or any kind of drawing actually. And then over time, it's morphed to mean doing little drawings that are often satirical or witty. but I thought that was interesting because I didn't know it came from something that was quite weighty really the idea of this sort of

you know the masters using this cartoon but I like the idea that that's before there being a master that's outside of the masterwork it's sketching and trying things out and being a bit more free and having less rules yeah exactly so yeah it does that kind of does resonate

and it's funny you mentioned school as well actually because for unlike a lot of people I can actually picture school because we went to the same school Not in the same year, I'm older than you. So when you say you're at school, you were drawing. I'm like, I actually know the picture, you know, the uniform, the rooms. But we should talk about the here and now because what's brought us together is the paperback version of your book coming out earlier this year,

cry when the baby cries. And it's so glorious, Becky. I absolutely love it. And it's made me laugh out loud, which is no small feet, I think, when you're reading something. because you process something a bit differently sometimes when you're reading to, you know, if someone says something to you. But what's your relationship like with your book? Oh, thank you so much. I'm so glad that you enjoyed it. It's been such a positive experience, actually.

And when I didn't set out to write a memoir, that's not what I thought I would be writing. I pitched a book about parenting and I thought it'd be a collection of funny observational cartoons about parenting. but maybe I would distance it a little bit from me and make it more generally relatable about, you know, just a typical parent. When I first sent my sort of pitch to the editor, she went, no, this needs to be about you. I want you to tell your story from beginning to end. And I was like, you know, I've already signed the agreement and said I'm on board.

So I sort of nodded, go, yeah, oh, fine, that sounds. And so she was like, more of a memoir. And I'm like, yeah, okay, absolutely fine. We logged off the Zoom call. And then I kind of held my desk being like, oh, I have to write my story and reveal everything about what happened to me, my body, my family. And so, yeah, I did have to take a minute to think, is this going to be okay? Is that me?

Am I okay to share so much? and my partner, my husband, he was going to be in it. So I had to have a chat with him. So I'm going to maybe write this thing. It's like our whole life and I'll be like naked in most of it. And we'll be doing some stuff that's like, some people might call embarrassing. How do you feel about that? And he was just like, just don't name me and it's fine.

So yeah, it was quite a little bit. I felt vulnerable, you know, it was quite scary. And I suppose I had lots of fears, being embarrassing, or would people think it was too much, I've overshared, or would I get it wrong and somehow offend somebody, and you have all those worries. But since it's come out, I've had the nicest messages from parents, from mum's and even dads,

who are some of them in the really early days of having had a baby. I had a mum who met her and she just had a C-section for twins and she was like, I'm reading your book, I'm two weeks in. Wow. And it was so touching. Yeah. You know, you don't imagine that, that point of writing a book where there's someone actually reading it at the right in the deepest, most confusing moment of parenthood. Honestly, just getting a message like that, it made everything feel so worth it and I was so happy. I couldn't have asked for more than that sort of response, I think.

Yeah, and it's really, well, I'm not surprised you felt that way. I find it a gorgeous tribute and acknowledgement of the sort of, I don't know, the spectrum of new motherhood and actually not just the new bit, but as the years pass and the children grow too, but your relationship with this new version of yourself, the sleep deprivation. Actually, what's very sweet about the mother with the twins, that probably someone gave that to her,

thinking this might be something that is a comfort to you now. And I can see why you would feel vulnerable because I can see objectively this is your story. But what's so interesting is I realized when I was reading it that it could easily be my story too. And when you say things are shocking and, you know, it's so extreme. I realized I didn't actually find a lot of it shocking because I think you're so numb to you sort of give yourself over to this experience,

what happens to your body, your emotions, this, you know, the early stages where you're so ragged. I just thought, yeah, I've been through so much of this stuff. I can relate to so much of it, the extremity of it. And I think in a way I was thinking, you know, I'm 22 years on from my first baby now. And I thought, gosh, I wonder how it feels for you to have absolutely. absolutely documented that early years and early months and early days of new motherhood because I think it is something that's quite hard to hold on to sometimes. Your brain and your memory

does funny things with those memories. Absolutely. So when you look at it now, can you see the value in just the fact that you've put it down for yourself as well? I'm so, so glad I did it. I'm for that exact reason because even coming to have this chat with you now my kids at eight and six, I was like, can I remember? Do I, do I, maybe I need to remember. again to remember what it was like because I feel so different now as a mum to how I did in the early stages. You forget really, really fast and you're just constantly adapting and reforming yourself. So now I'm so glad that I did it. But again, when I got asked to write it as a memoir, I had another panic which was, oh, I don't remember anything. So I think the kids were

maybe four and two or nearly five and three when I got the book commissioned. And even at that point, the baby stage felt far away. And I didn't keep any journals. I didn't draw at all after having my first. Oh, you didn't. I was going to ask you that. Okay. So you really were reaching back into what helps you access it then? Yeah.

I mean, at first I did think I don't remember anything. So where I started was with any memorandum. I did have. I would like jot down the things that came to the front. You know, you always have a few memories. And then I'd start with that memory and work out. And weirdly, there was a lot of memory there. I could remember it step by step from any given memory, the things around that. I also had done a clever thing, which was to download the Mum's WhatsApp group transcript. And this was ages ago, I just had this, like, years and years ago, I had this feeling that it would be a really brilliant resource or a really amazing stash of material about our very early moments and all

our fears and worries. And is this like NCT moms or who are the other moms on there? I did hit no birth thing. And we had a little group in the local area really for the friends. You do these classes of groups and you know, you're supposedly there to like learn how to give birth, but you're really just building a WhatsApp group. very expensive WhatsApp group. Premium.

Just so you've got some other people in the same moment as you. But yeah, so I found out how to download a WhatsApp transcript as a text document and put it, saved it in a file. And then that was brilliant. I went back to that and I could go right through and find our, like, darkest moments are, like, you know, funniest conversations. And that was really useful. God, that's brilliant.

I'd never even, I didn't even realize that was a thing. but actually that's a really genius, genius thing to save it in any case because I think going back into that world, I mean, no wonder you can't remember it. Not only does nature probably help you forget it. Yeah. Also, you're in a state of mind where your brain is so frazzled that memory is kind of the last thing you're going to need to prioritize at that point, right?

You're just, you're so in the trenches. You are so. I always say that phrase, in the trenches. It's a cliche, but. No, but it really is. I think that's why it made me laugh. That brilliant picture you've done of you and your partner, us before, babies, enough after work.

These little smiling figures, and then there's all like little haggardy, you know, lines under the eyes. And I remember looking at myself thinking, I look so old. Like my face, you're like a husk of a person with this new baby. And the new kids have got such lovely skins in all the photos. They look cherubic. And I'm like, oh, that's a withered thing.

They get more, more gorgeous, and you feel it's so, like, visually obvious that they've drained their life from you. And you've given your life for them. My vitality. It's your turn now. The other one that really made me laugh out loud is I really relate to the bedtime. I mean, I'm terrible at bedtimes, and I've always felt at other houses that probably nailing it. Kids are asleep. They're done.

out by, you know, in time to go and sit down for your supper with your partner or whatever, or watch TV or whatever it is you prioritise in the evenings, I'll come out, I'll emerge, having normally slumbered alongside my youngest. Yeah, and there's a picture you to, how long was they in there? I can absolutely get that. I don't actually ravaging experiences. Since the birth, I would say it was bedtime. Bedtime was the next thing that made you, like, it stripped the skin from you.

It was so difficult. because basically you're extremely sleep deprived and then you have to spend three hours in a dark room but you're not going to sleep yourself ideally you stay awake even you're trying to make everything as sleep be time as possible

and you must survive you want to sleep so bad but if you go to sleep it's like an abyss you're having to fall into you fall into a beautiful abyss but then you have to peel yourself ahead of it emerge into the blinking lights where you haven't sorted the things for the next day

yeah kitchen full of dirty dishes and nappies and it's so hard. But what you just said is such a toxic element of how we parent, I think, which is always thinking everyone else is doing it better than you or think they've all nailed it. They all know something. They've read a book or someone taught them how,

but we don't have a clue and we're doing it wrong. And it's really hard that we never see each other do it. I think that's one of the hardest things about parenting the way we do in separate houses instead of all being more communal, is we don't have any idea what goes on behind closed doors. No, and I think, I mean, you've said it yourself and I've been listening to some other interviews you've done where you talk about the hardest bits of parenting are where

often the things where you're trying to sort of wedge these free spirits and your own character as a family into these quite rigid forms of society, I don't know, whether it be taking them to a cafe or trying to get them in school on time or being quiet in places where they want to run round and be loud. I don't even know what the solution is, but I think just acknowledging it is quite liberating in itself. It definitely is. We were just in Spain for a few days in Alicante,

and they have done a great job with putting play equipment absolutely everywhere in the city. So every few streets, there was a beautiful square with lovely giant big trees and, you know, just a lovely place to sit. The parents can have a coffee or a beer. know, they're selling beer by playgrounds in Spain, just very parent-focused. Yes. But there's play there. And so, you know, there was wobbly benches or little mushroom houses. And our kids had the best time. They felt so welcome. And it was so much easier for us. And then they were meeting other kids and the parents were able to sit and chat about adult things.

But the kids were there. So that's what's slightly missing, isn't it, in Britain? So you think it is quite a British issue? Maybe because of the weather? Do you think that might have been a problem for the play equipment. I think that. And I think also, this is a conversation of having my mum not long ago, about how the Victorians have dictated

so much about how we do things culturally. Yeah. So whether it be everything from sort of how we grieve to education, a lot of it was set up by the Victorians. And, you know, famously, they weren't one for having kids run a mock. You know, it was a kind of...

Exactly. Seen and not heard was still a thing like when we were growing up, when we were in the 80s. You still hear that from grandparents. wouldn't you and parents jokingly. Yeah, it's true. And then you feel scruffy and messy.

And then, you know, just observing my own small people as they grow and how so much of growing is about encouraging what they should turn the volume up on and what they should turn the volume down on. So you're not trying to ever change them, but you're saying we don't do that here. So that part of you that wants to kick back or rebel or shout or run or clock. we are going to diminish that in this environment or within this group of people or at this time of day and then amplify other bits, you know, when you're polite or when you're smiley or when, you know,

it's sort of like these two volume controls. I love how you think about that. Do you talk to the kids about the volume controls or is that just your way of thinking of it? I think it's more just maybe I should try. I like that way. I'm going to dial you up a little bit. Yes. I think it's just a feeling as well of. you know, because every, every kid is so different. So the way you parent them is different and what you need to respond to is different.

And you start off, I think, feeling really encouraged by, you know, if you've got a child that, I don't know, can rub alongside, you know, the society of school easily or a slightly adult environment or can be polite and order things nicely when you're out in a restaurant or whatever you want to be doing or, you know, just be sort of. generally, socially, very acceptable. And then you have the other one that's a bit more wild, maybe, and you think, oh, that's great in you, but not here. Yeah. And also, sorry, not there, there, there, they're all there. Sorry about that. Yeah, exactly. It's so difficult. And then as they get older, for me anyway, I would switch to being more concerned about the one that could fit in easier. Are you okay in there? Are you showing it all of yourself? Have you done, made yourself this shape because it's nicer and it's more readily received. Are you, is there people pleasing going on?

So I think as a parent, you're swinging around between those two things because you want to, ultimately, you want to be able to bump into people and not about and hope that, you know, you seem like a nice family to be around. You do, you really do. And that is, that's, again, that can be quite a really intense pressure. And I think especially when my kids were young and they were big, strong characters, you know, and they would not necessarily always cope with a busy space or a fair or some sort of fun, you know, event

that all the other families were joyfully enjoying and my kids maybe had a complete breakdown or a meltdown in public. And that feeling of being watched and judged is so, it's quite, it's really unhelpful. And I think sometimes it would almost make me snap at the kids because you're feeling embarrassed and then you're mad with them, even though really I'd take them into a place which wasn't right for them. Oh, that's very stimulating a fairground.

There's lots of noise. There's lots of sound. Yeah. Or anything like that as well. So it's just that always feeling that other, someone else might be watching you and judging you as a parent. I've really tried to silence that in a voice, but it just doesn't go away, does it? Not 100%.

And I think some of it's also what's passed down as well. There's a thing, again, from my mum where. she would say when we're out, she would say to me, look around you, is anyone else behaving like you are here? And I was like, that's great thing. I'm definitely going to use that. And now I'm like, actually, maybe I'm teaching them

like a sort of weird conformist, shame-based control. They think you're ridiculous right now. I wouldn't say that. You know what I mean? Like, I'm encouraging them to always look around and think I must do what everybody else is doing. Is that really what I mean by that? Exactly. I know.

And I had the same thing. I was trying to give my son advice about, you know, sharing and letting others, other people's ideas in and saying that, you know, it's nice to make other people feel good. And I'm like, hang on, is that just always thinking about people pleasing? It's so hard to know. It is so hard. Well, if we go back in time, what was going on in your work in the build-up to having a baby? Because I know that you've had a few different hats on.

I mean, now obviously, cartoonist is your world, and obviously it was always part of who you were, but there were other versions of your work leading up to where you are now. So what was going on before you had a baby in terms of your career at that time? So I had kind of given up on the idea of cartooning. I'd tried to go to art school, and cartooning was not a thing there. They were really, like, not into it. It was considered not acceptable for the art college. And the head of the art college said, you know, why are you here?

not settling, what do you want to do? And I said, well, I'd really like to draw comics or be a cartoonist. And he went, oh, why are you in art school? That's not what we're for. Really? It was weird. I think that's weird. I stand by it.

I was like, I want to learn how to draw, you know, teach me perspectives. And you were at the school at this time? Yeah. And he was like, we don't really do that. It would seem like maybe, you know, conceptualism was more of what they were about. What bizarre conversation for you? Actually learning technical skills wasn't really a thing. And so then I was like, well, where do you?

How do you learn that? And I kind of started to just feel really tired of trying to do something that no one really seemed to want me to do. So I went and studied literature at Leeds, uni, in the end. And then I went into journalism instead because I was like, that is a career, that's a job. And I started out a Bliss magazine. Wow, I remember Bliss. Yeah, completely different. I was a junior sub-editor and junior writer, and I would write the headlines for the problem pages.

Oh, amazing. Some really good pun material there. Love a pun. And then I also wrote the horoscopes at one point, which was... Oh, you must be a trained term. I had to have some training. Yeah, it was several years to become an astrologer, but was actually quite upset when they asked me to do that

because even though it's one of those things I knew wasn't real, it was like seeing behind the curtain and really upsetting. Oh, you do just make this up. What? The girls are literally living their lives based on this advice. Oh no. And then it was power. It was me.

I'd sit there being like, do you're trying to channel? Channel Mercury and Venus. What's going on? That's amazing. You could have, I mean, you had a lot of clout in that world. A lot of responsibility. If your name starts with an M.

Oh, don't go out on Thursday. That's all I'm saying. I tried to really feel it in my heart. Like I was genuine. I was not. taking the piss, you know. Let it resonate. Yeah.

So I became an astrologer. And then I went to the, I got a job at The Guardian and that's where I was for about 10 years after that, junior editing and then working my way up. And then after that, it wasn't right. It just wasn't what I wanted to do. Still in my heart. I was like, I need to draw. I can't let this go.

So I just drew outside of work. I'd wake up really early and draw in the morning. and I was terrible. I was not good. I always really want people to know that I wasn't good at drawing. I really worked at it. It wasn't like I just naturally could just draw anything. I had to really just keep going through the bad stage

until eventually I got better at it. That's interesting. I appreciate you saying that, but also your drawing seems so effortless and it's so beautiful. I can see every world that you create in your drawings. So the idea that you work, I mean, I'm still imagining your version not being able to draw

is better than my version. I'm not able to draw. I had been trying since I was about five. So I'd had a lot of a practice. But yeah, it was just drawing constantly and just doing it. And I'd wake up and do my hour or so of drawing every single morning. And that became like a discipline that was really, really hard. But I somehow would force myself up to do it.

and gradually it got started to pitch cartoons to little zines and self-publish and print out my own little zine and no one would buy it. But eventually it led to some proper jobs. And when I got pregnant, I was working at BuzzFeed, which, you know, was so momentarily huge. And they advertised a job for a cartoonist and writer, which I just couldn't believe when I saw that come up.

Yeah. I was like, a job for a cartoonist and writer. It's my dream job. And I actually, I remember being like, you know, getting goosebumps and being, sort of terrified thinking, if I don't get this, this will never be advertised as a job again. Yeah, yeah, it's so unusual. Yes, I applied and was so glad to get it.

I've put in so much effort. And so I was there for a couple of years. And meanwhile, we were going through loads of fertility problems. And so that was my secret life. And I didn't really tell people at work. And it was, I had to sort of split myself in two, really. I had this hidden life at home, which was very sad and dark and scary, where I thought, I'm not going to be able to have children, I really wanted to.

And then I'd have to turn up at work as if everything was fine. And I was in my early 30s, and my colleagues were about 10 years younger. So we were in such different, like, phases of our life. So it just It was this really strange Yeah secret And I think in a funny way When you have a kid

It almost that divide It just becomes more pronounced maybe Well between the front facing persona Or maybe you actually Stop being able to have a facade at all Because the baby just Breaks you open And you can't hide it

But yeah so for a few years We were going through IVF And then Fortunately I did eventually work and I went on maternity leave from BuzzFeed to have my first. And what I did was take a complete break from all work at that point. I said I wouldn't do any work or draw anything for a whole year. I just wanted to be a mum. That was it. Right. So I went from having, you know, just being career, career, career and work to just fully a parent. Wow. And I, yeah,

I actually loved it. That's quite a lot though. Is it? It's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. Isn't it, to take on, I mean, if you're living this life where you've spent years going through infertility, which is heartbreaking and lonely and has all these big emotions that you, as you say, you're almost dealing with this dual reality of that's what's, the weight of that at home and thinking about that constant, I imagine that's like an ongoing, almost like a radio station in your head of like the days of the month, what's happening this cycle. or, you know, when does it start up again with the hormones and then the work thing. So when you find yourself going from that whole community in that world into a world of new parent or impending parenthood,

is there any sort of support that can happen? Because that's quite a lot to sort of just, is it expected? Do you feel that people are supposed to just sort of almost put that away? Like, oh, that was just the buildup? or is there a space to acknowledge how the character that that was in your life for so long? Because that's a lot, I think. Yeah, it was. And I think it must be completely different for everyone.

Yes. But for me, I actually just, when I got that pregnancy test, like five in the morning, and I was so sure it would be negative because I'd done so many tests and they were always negative. And each time it was like this devastation, like a collapse in the day. inside in an absolute kind of grief. And then I saw the two lines and it was just the best feeling I'd ever known and I was like, you know, unbelievably elated and I couldn't believe it. And I felt, you know, when you get good news and you literally feel like people say like, you're walking on, walking on air, I just had that lightness. And it almost felt like everything

that had gone before just disappeared. Oh, wow. Well, that's lovely. I obviously did have the fear that it wouldn't hold, and I had to get through those first few weeks thinking, with a lot of fear, actually, in the early weeks. And I remember we got to about eight weeks, and I was very fearful, and we'd gone on a little holiday that was pre-booked, and we went on a long walk, and I was like, oh, no, maybe this isn't good. And I was feeling terrified, like, oh, my, what if this doesn't last?

I can't, I can't handle it. I can't cope with it. Then we had an early scan. You get that if you're IVF. And we saw this little kidney bean and the heartbeat was, and the doctor was like, the heartbeat's really strong. And after that, I remember having this moment where I felt, okay, you've got to make a decision. You're either going to live in fear and this pregnancy is going to be terrifying. And if something happens, all that fear won't have meant anything. It won't make it easier. It will just mean you have more. fear. Or you can decide to just have faith and trust and enjoy this moment of being pregnant, which I had never thought would happen to me. Enjoy it and if something terrible happens, it will be terrible anyway. And so I just decided to enjoy it. And it doesn't seem likely that you couldn't just flick a switch, but it did actually happen for me. I was like, if this is the only time I'm pregnant, I want to enjoy every second of it. And I just did.

I had, you know, morning sickness. Physically it's really uncomfortable, but I loved and just was so grateful for every second of the pregnancy. And that kind of carried on after the baby was born. And it became this really useful. It was a, yeah, a really useful way of thinking.

So at every point in the first hardest parts of it, I was just enjoying it even when I was ravaged and physically, you know, I'd be cut open. I was like, but this is amazing. I never thought I'd get to do this. I really love that, Becky. And I think that's a very, I think that is absolutely very like,

clever, clear way of thinking about things. Because actually we think we can feel like worrying about things is somehow paving the way towards coping with that outcome if that's what happens. And of course, you're so right. the embedding in fear doesn't actually protect you or clear the path for how you will anticipate or receive that bad news or that bad outcome.

You've just spent the time that there was happening walking alongside this emotion that's a lot to carry the whole time. So I think that that's a really lovely, and not just for pregnancy, but for so many things in life, you know, whether it me, I don't know, the early bit where you're dating someone that you realize matters or spending time with someone you care about or going on a trip. Or actually, I've used it casually when I've gone for trips away from the kids where I'll feel guilty and my husband will say, don't waste the time when we're spending together doing this feeling guilty. If you're going to go, like, let's just go and enjoy it. And actually, I think it can give you like just that little, it can really help your mindset.

I think how we speak to ourselves about those things can really help. It does, and it's so important. And I think I felt that enjoying it would be almost like greedy or like, you know, to sort of, you know, I didn't deserve to enjoy it. That it's the confidence that comes from just enjoying something that can feel quite scary. Like you look pleased with yourself.

Yeah, and I think also if you've been in that, you know, within that sadness of trying to have a baby and it not work, I think that's, you're aware, aren't you, of all the people that are still saying in that world. So you can feel a sort of strange responsibility of carrying something alongside it. Like, I'm not feeling like this has gone really wonderfully for me. I'm still really worried that it won't work out. Yeah, yeah, that's so true. So how I looked at it was, I thought, I had to sort of view myself as a friend.

and have a little bit of distance and say, you're allowed to be really happy and glad and enjoy this. That's a lovely thing. It's not a greedy thing. It's not a selfish thing, a vain thing, to love being pregnant. Just be happy. It doesn't mean bad things will happen

just because you're enjoying yourself. But yeah, it was very much like having to rewire my brain. And I carried that through, actually, the whole way. think that's a lovely thing and I think that's a really, it's really lovely to articulate that because I think that's, I think that's a helpful thing. I feel like that's good advice that I can take as well for just being able to, it can be a lot to give yourself a mission to just be in the moment and liberate yourself of the what ifs, I think, especially when you're raising someone as well because, you know, if you stop to like allow in the enormity of like how cracked

open your heart is to all the what ifs, it's, I mean, sometimes I feel like you'd never even leave the house in the morning, you know, just be, like, we're all just staying here today. Yeah, it's just that thing, you know, I think it's mindfulness, I suppose, is just grounding yourself in the moment being like, right now, this minute, we're okay and we are allowed to enjoy this moment. Definitely. And when you're drawing, does that feel quite mindful as well? Oh, yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, I suppose it's so, it does take over, and I do get into a very intense flow state when I'm drawing and it's going well and I know what I'm doing. And it is a real, a really, yeah, pleasurable job.

But where I was at when I had my first was actually a really mixed relationship with work, like a mixed feelings place. I, and it was for quite physical reasons, which was that I felt that I left uni, and then I immediately went and sat on an office chair. I got a job straight away. I had like a few weeks off after uni. And I went into an office and I sat on an office chair, clicking a mouse and tapping on a mouse and tapping on a chair. keyboard for like 12 or 13 years or however long it had been to the point I had my became pregnant and I was I was so not sure that was how I wanted to live my life and it seemed like the expectation would be I would be in an office chair until I was 65 or 70 and then I'd retire and I was like

I'm not really loving sitting in an office it's I you know there are aspects of the work that are enjoyable but staring at a commuter all day in a chair in a very gray space with very harsh strip lighting and no sense of the weather or seasons or temperature you know it was like temperature control environment that was never the right temperature yeah you'd have like an icy air-condition draft and it was all yeah like dry and i had this like really strong feeling from the minute i walked into an office they wanted to run out and just run away into some sort of park and just be feral. And then when I had a baby, I could do that. I spent, you spend the entire first year in a park feral. Yes, it's true. That's, that's kids like, happy place. Well, I was thinking

when you said that, I was like, that's funny, because that's kind of back to what we were talking before with the volumes, the volume control, because office world is very much, especially if you're a creative soul like you, you're going into some way. You're expected to shed quite a lot of yourself and be quite a homogenised version of yourself. And I think I've always found those environments really painful. I don't like not being able to bring a bit of my characters to something. Yeah, really, like, I mean, just doing, I would like, desire, want to just, like, do a handstand or something weird,

like, just use my body. I'd have these, like, fantasies that when we were in morning meeting, which was this really serious and incredible space at the Guardian where I worked, where these, you know, intelligent journalists would share their stories and discuss ideas. And it was an amazing environment, but I had this really strong feeling that at any minute I might just jump in the air and go,

or like take all my clothes off and run around naked. And I'd be sitting there being like, don't do that, don't do that. But what would happen if I did do that? Who would be the first to push me to the ground and track me out? Or would they just watch me because it would be so awkward? That's the funny thing, isn't it? I mean, even now I'll say to the kid, what would you do if I just, I think there's this like,

What is it? If you have this part of your brain that likes the idea of slightly, like, absolutely flipping the table on any conformist sort of environment. I even had this morning in the playground. I was dropping the kids off. And, you know, there's all the other parents and, I don't know, carers and everybody in the playground, I could see the teachers. And I thought, what would they do if I just walk over and, like,

just say something weird to one of the teachers? Do you ever get on the play equipment? We, there's not really equipment that would be, I mean I'd have to really, that would be like a little bit of a detour. There is a small play area but I'd have to actually walk over that. For me it's like ever since school I used to think about just standing up an assembly and just swearing or saying something. And the idea that the only thing stopping those impulses is my sense of control is quite terrifying. It seems like such a thin protection. between my impulse and my actual what I'm actually doing.

I'm like, that's not enough. That membrane's thin. And the amazing thing about having a baby is that you've got this like little companion and they are not judgmental at all. And I loved to that. I felt like it was like the most freeing experience for me. And I'd felt that as I was pregnant and approaching my maternity leave, I had this idea that it might be like that.

That I could just be at home and I could do whatever I wanted in a way and no one would fire me. I wouldn't be judged by anyone and no one would think I was weird. And I really did feel like that with my babies. I loved that they thought I was great. Yeah. And you can play and be silly. Yeah.

And still now. You can do anything and they're like, that's normal. That's fine. But even with your six and eight year old, you can still be quite, you can still get over to like some pretty fun times. I am, yeah, I'm still in that stage and I love it so much. And I am like vaguely aware that at some point they're going to go, oh, don't do that. That's really embarrassing. And you got a little while, I think.

A couple of years, probably, with the eldest. I am really loving that just like the home can be somewhere where you can be so free. Definitely. I didn't find the home like a claustrophobic trap in contrast to work, which a lot of my friends did who they found leaving work and going to the home, really trapping. Oh, that's sad, isn't it? And that they were desperate to get out and live.

outside the house. Yeah, yeah. So it was quite a, I had quite an opposite experience. And with regard to your relationship with your work then, if you've now got this place where you're documenting your story and you've kind of shared every, you know, the good and the bad and the ugly of what all of this looked like and, you know, what your thoughts were,

and it's been so warmly received. It must feel a bit like, you know, you're seeing all these buds blossom. Like, well, if I did that and that was okay, I can take this wherever I want to now. You mean with my work or with parenting? Well, I suppose both, but it's empowering, isn't it? Yeah. To be able to put it all out there and people say, that's great.

I'm still, I'm absolutely here for it. Yeah, it's been so, so great. And I remember drawing the book and some of the pages were really raw and personal and it would be like, I very much wanted to show my body, you know, after the birth and how it felt to me and how it looked, you know, in the half-deflated stomach that I didn't really know about, and the bruising and the scar, and then, you know, these huge boobs that are like, whoa.

You know, you've suddenly got these amazing boobs, but, you know, you also have no sex drive anymore, and you're just so fragile, and I felt as a, like, having a woman's body that I'd never seen reflected. I'd never seen a woman's body. body just after birth, really, like that. And in the book, I draw Princess Kate, who famously stepped out of hospital in heels. Come on. And looking with makeup and a dress. And in a way,

it looked like, okay, you can put heels on and a dress when you have a baby. That looks hard, though. That doesn't look like a natural feeling. That looks like an option that. I'm not even interested in taking that, really. No, but I think until I had the baby, I didn't really, know what it would be like physically. It was all very abstract. No, you're right. Yeah, you suddenly think that it looks even more improbable. Oh, once you...

The pressure she must have been under as well to present like that. As soon as I had the baby, I suddenly looked at the picture so differently and thought, you know, why do we make women do these photos? It's so unfair and having to hide away. And I was grateful that I got to have a maternity leave. I had a whole year to be this. Yeah, that must have felt like such a long time. Yeah.

Did you do that with your second as well? No, not with the second. The second was I started working again after six months, but by that point I'd been made redundant. So after the year was up, I was pretty much immediately made redundant. And actually I was okay with that. I was going to say if you've had this time to reflect on your decade plus in an office world, you must have felt like, okay, it's time for something new.

Yeah, I was like, oh no, that's terrible. terrible news and I've just had a baby. But secretly inside I was like, yes, I can go freelance. And, you know, I've got some redundancy money to help me go freelance. And it's led you to put your work in loads of places, which is lovely. It did, yeah. I started and through BuzzFeed, which had been a brilliant job, and I had loved it. More people had seen my cartoons, and I got asked to pitch to The New Yorker, and that was, you know, brilliant breakthrough for me getting more exposure for my work. Definitely.

Yeah, and it's just... And how do you come up with the ideas for the satirical cartoons? So yeah, I also do a weekly political satirical cartoon for the New Statesman. And I've always loved... I feel like that whole thing started with like drawing my teachers. Sorry to them. Sorry, not sorry. And I would do, exactly.

Some of them not sorry. So I would always, I would draw the teachers and I would draw little cartoons for my friends. and I think it's very similar. It was like skewering people in authority, caricaturring them, and then showing them as they really are. So I was just, I'd always been really into that, like, drawing grotesque versions of powerful people and then kind of trying to bring them down. Yeah, you know, it's a really fun way to respond to people you don't have that much power over.

Yeah, that's true. And would they come to, do they have ideas of what you need to cover, or are you allowed sort of a bit more free reign about what you're involving? It's really free and they're great. They really let me just go for it with my ideas there, which is a lovely way to work. Yeah. So you can, you know, I think that's when you're trying to be funny,

you have to try things out, not everything lands, but you need that freedom's brilliant. Definitely. To discover something unexpected or, yeah. And I was thinking back actually, you were talking about what you were saying about the art school, and how they were saying, oh, you know, you want to be a cartoonist

whether you come to art school. But it's not like, there's been cartoonist for so long. Why do you think it was such a side-on option for you? Do you think it was just bad luck with the people you were meeting along the way? Because there must have been people that you'd seen that had inspired you. Yeah.

Do you think? Yeah, they definitely were. And it's such a good question. It isn't like a brand new art. No. No. I've got a radical idea, guys. The idea, yeah, exactly.

You're not going to believe it. It's called a cartoon. It's drawings. And it's a real British, like, you know, tradition. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. So why? Why don't they teach it? Yeah.

And so many of my cartoonist friends are self-taught. And that's pretty interesting. That is interesting. Do you think it starts of quite, like, just a person and their ideas and their paper and in their room? And then it kind of... And I suppose for some people, they wouldn't even know where that would lead in terms of a public-facing element.

And yet, I feel like I come into contact with cartoons a lot. Yeah. And they have had a brilliant resurgence with the internet because it's such a visual space. And when I was growing up, my heroes were like Posey Simmons and Charles Adams and Gary Larson. And so there were a lot, you know, all these cartoonists, but it seemed like they had, that moment was over somehow,

that newspapers weren't hiring cartoonists anymore, newspaper budgets were shrinking, they were making cuts and maybe the cartoonist isn't like, was, you know, the first to go, or there wasn't many jobs, and people just kept saying, you won't be able to be a cartoonist, or they'd say, oh, do you want to make Disney animations?

And I'd be like, it's completely different. So it's all maybe I'm going to like animation. because that was like an industry. But yeah, I do think a lot of cartoonists do just start with a notebook on their own. Maybe they are self-taught. And although for years I thought that was a weakness and that it held me back, I think it does allow you to develop your own style, which isn't a taught style maybe.

So that cartoonists can draw in quite different ways to each other. And it can be quite straight, you know, they can draw in quite strange. unusual specific style because it's just something that's emerged from their own hands. Like an illustrator, I suppose, when you come to and recognise their work. Yeah. Because, you know, the names you were mentioning, I was like, oh, yeah, I can see that in my mind's eye. I know the sort of thing you mean with that. Yeah.

So I think, yeah, it's definitely, and I was actually thinking about this morning as well, about, because I was listening to you speak when you said that after you'd had your babies, you didn't really look at social media. And I thought, I can see that. And obviously, we've become, there are. people who do share the not so perfect side of parenting, but there's something about a cartoon that allows you, I think you put your, first I think there's a sort of soft tenderness to drawing that's intimate in a way that any other shared medium doesn't quite hit in the same way.

And secondly, I suppose, because when you see someone's world, even if they might say something that's relatable, you can still see so much detail in it that you can see where the differences are. But when it's a drawing, I think you sort of, you sort of color it in with your own character as well. Does that make sense? Oh, definitely. I love hearing people talk about why they like cartoons as well, because I've been thinking about why, why do they work, what are they? It somehow is hard to exactly pin down what it is. But yeah, I love that. You break the idea down to a fewer lines and gestures that can convey, you know, certain things. What I loved about drawing the early stage of parenting and why it seemed like the right

medium was that so much of it was almost just like impossible to put into words or like beyond language. And so many of the moments are silent. You're at home alone with a baby. They don't talk. You might be talking to yourself, but it's not really a word-based relationship. It's body language and eye contact and facial expressions. So cartooning was so perfect for trying to capture those moments of motherhood that would be me in a state of disarray or panic and the baby crying. And you can create so much expression and movements

using these little cartoon lines. So yeah, it did feel like the ideal way to tell the story. Definitely. And I think there's one drawing where it's almost like this sort of never-ending day-night cycle. I completely, oh my word, I'd put it away a little bit, I think. You know, I'm seven years on from my last baby, and I think I'd sort of locked it away a little bit, but I was like, oh, I was right back in that moment. And the baby that never just seemed to feed.

I felt like a couple of them were just on me just for like a couple of months, just stuck. Yes. Like, this is me. I'm just feeding a baby, like around the clock. Absolutely. That happened to me and it wasn't something that I'd ever been told would happen. So the midwives, doctors, no one said, and these books, these horrible baby books. Oh, the books with the timing.

Do you afford? Oh, I put that in the bin. So I unfortunately didn't put it in the bin. I lived by it like a Bible. Really? For a year. This is the first. Put your blinds up, have one slice of toast, then switch to the left side. Exactly.

It's so prescriptive. 20 minutes, place the baby down on a flat or a hard fly. flat surface, the baby will go to sleep for two hours. Well, why, it's not working. The baby's screaming. It made me feel like I hadn't given birth to a person, but like a sort of project. A new starter in the business of life. Exactly.

And they are not good, fire them. No. With my first, I would end breastfeeding because Gina Ford told me it should only take 20 minutes and something ridiculous. And I was on this like cycle is like plan, timetable. So my poor first, who did latch straight away, kind of over like a few weeks of me constantly taking him off, really forgot how to latch.

And then it really, it just ruined breastfeeding. And I did doggedly try to keep going with it. And we managed a year, but we had to combine with bottles. Well done. So he was really bottle fed and the breastfeeding would be like comforting. It didn't. It's so hard though. I think it's where you feel self-conscious

and people come around to visit you and the new baby and you feel like they're going, wow, she's feeding a little. lot or they hungry again. Oh, definitely. Surely this one's fed now and take them off and they cry again. Like, oh, no. Maybe I was just being like a giant, you know, comfort thing. Maybe they weren't feeding.

You're so confused. You're so confused. The first is the most confusing thing. But then with the second, everything somehow made much more sense. And I just, because I had the toddler too and he just had just turned two, so really little and really needy, I thought, well, the only thing I can do with this baby is do what he wants to do. I'm going to try that out.

I'm not doing books. They all went to the charity shop. And he wanted a feed, like you say, non-stop for two months. It was about eight weeks. And he was never off the boob for eight weeks. He slept in the bed with us because that's what he wanted to do. And then I slept. So we did the sideline feeding and I would sleep.

And it was like the most incredible difference. Oh, my, you know, I was a, I was. I recovered. I healed from the C-section because I was resting and still just breastfeeding. And it took off. He loved it. Breastfeeding was great. We managed to go to nearly two years. But I did feel really sort of sad for my other one who'd had this weird time where I kept pushing him. Yeah, but he would not remember. But I think for you, it's stressful. And it's just a really good example of how with that first one, you don't know what you're doing. you're looking outside yourself for advice and putting yourself under so much pressure to kind of,

I don't know, fit into whatever it's supposed to look like, how you're supposed to be doing it, when really, when you just let your own instinct take over, it became a lot of a softer world for you and for your baby, I think. It did. I turned out that I went with my instinct purity for just like practical reasons, and it seemed like the easiest thing.

And I thought, well, I'm going to do, if anything means he doesn't cry, I'm going to go with that, and it meant breastfeeding all the time. And so I sat on a sofa, and we just did it so much better the second time. My husband had some paternity leave, which was brilliant. He worked in kind of unlikely in a way. He was working in a postroom in a bank, but they had the most incredible parental leave policy. Oh, that's good. Very strange.

For every member of the office, the dads could take six months if they wanted to. Yeah. So how we, I'm trying to remember it's all so long ago. How we did it was we arranged for me to take, because I was freelance, just three months or something of, or did we do it the other way around six months? Whatever we did, basically, he was off with me for the first few weeks and he got to help with the toddler and then the pandemic hit. Ah. So whatever we'd plan was just like torpedo. Yeah.

And he ended up staying off for, it was like nine months off, furloughed. Oh, right. Well, at least you're all together. We were. Yeah, you can, when you've got those very small, small bubbers, you know, it's all hands on deck, isn't it? It really was, and it was amazing having another adult there for the whole, you know, nearly the whole first year, really. So needed, really. So needed. And it did make me think, oh, I started to have this like, awakening. Oh, this is how we're meant to parent.

There's meant to be lots of adults around. Yeah. So that if mom can breastfeed for literally 24 hours a day. if they need, she needs to, and rest and recover. And the other kids not like falling down the stairs or climbing into the dishwasher. How do people do this? How do people do this? I look back now at my, when I had my kids when they were all much younger and I think,

oh my God, that looks tiring. I found this really funny little video thing that one of them, he'd obviously tried to film a cooking thing and I was helping. And I had a baby in my arms, a three-year-old popping up, another one walking in and out. It's absolute chaos and so loud. There's just shouting and talking and scrambling and abate. And I was looking at like, whoa, that looks very tiring.

Did you feel like something had happened to your brain that helped that be okay for you? I think I just got, yeah. Was that your nature anyway, do you think? No, I think in the time I was probably so in it. and it's a bit like anything I do where I acknowledge that that time has passed where at the time I think I'm almost thriving a bit on the strange energy of it and I think I won't know what to do with myself when this is passed and then it passes and I look back and I go thank goodness I'm not doing that anymore

it looks really narrowing you're like oh it turns out sitting and staring into space is great actually things have filled the gap and I'm sure with it at the time I think I'm sort of in in it and really enjoying it. Funny enough, the last time I remember having that feeling was actually post, like during the pandemic when Richard and I were doing kitchen discos, which was these sort of Instagram broadcast with the kids. Love them. Oh, thank you.

Well, they were a big part of our lives for a long time. And every week it would come around. I would do this big build up and learn new songs and we'd sort of clear the room and I'd put on outfits and it was take up so much headspace. And I remember when I was coming to an end and I thought, I'm going to really miss it. And the following week, I just looked at this part of sequence, and I was like, I'm so glad I'm not doing that this week. I'm actually fine with it.

It was amazing, though. It was definitely helpful at the time. Oh, it was good for us. Chapters past. We did the kitchen discos, and it was so gorgeous. But what a funny time. Such a funny time. Such a funny time to be.

So my baby, my second was three months old when we got locked down. And so it wasn't that different to just having a newborn. No, and also for you, you must have almost felt like, well, of course, this is how the world. This suits me very well, thank you. Yeah. Can everything just calm down a bit for a while? So we just got locked down into this little bubble and we were in full parent, full parent, you know, world. And it was, yeah, it's a very different experience, I think, to if you're in your social phase of life and then suddenly you can't.

Yeah, I think for me, it was kind of having the older kids, I was just aware of what they weren't doing as well, which is hard. Exactly. If we go back to the hearing now, though, are you now more conscious of storing things up to put into your next book? Because surely there's a next instalment and what happens. I know. Life just always gets in the way of platt with sensible things like writing a diary so you remember everything. But yes, I do, I must. And I have got a sketchbook at the moment, which is like my dedicated diary sketchbook.

and I'm trying to do more like day-to-day just diary cartoons of life because I think I might want to record this and you know I need to get it down and will my technique of having no records and just basing it all on memories work but yeah I do I mean I'm doing two cartoons trips a week at the moment and that's a really intensive workload and I'm I find I'm just scrabbling about trying to get that done and then pick up the kids and they come home at home by you know the school finishes at 320 and it's really difficult to work once they're back oh yeah i can imagine i've got a shed a studio shed in the garden and they're just you know at the door and if i'm not there parenting them even if my husband's on the on dad duty they want me

and they know i'm there and they can't accept that it's very difficult Yeah, with the best intentions, it can be really hard, can't it? And they'll be fighting or crying and, you know. And you can hear them meet through the door, even if they don't come and... Hammer on the door and tears, they're funny! And if I leave, if I lock the door, I feel evil. And if I leave the door open, they're in there, and they're like getting all my pens out and their drawing, which is lovely,

but then they'll do, they'll climb on something and they'll, like, pull all the... Where I work is also where we lock. away all the toys that are just too much for the house and they'll be like oh my the duplogue we haven't played with this parade is pulling it down like mommy's just trying to finish can I just have a few more minutes boys trying to usher them out but yeah you do feel really guilty yeah but I totally relate to all of that we have our studios just off the kitchen and I can hear them before they even get to the door I can hear when they're just going to tell mommy and I'm like oh no you can feel the time running out and you're quickly trying to finish something like no no

it's done, it's over, that's the end of the day. I try to fit my work into after drop off and then finish it pick up because it's just a lot easier to be with them. And plus that is a, that's our time together. And if I'm working and my husband's cooking or clean, you know, then they're just on their own. And often they'll like put the telly on or, you know, just sit there and it's not, and that is how totally how I grew up. We'd get home from school and watch telly.

Same with my husband. He would come home and watch telly. So it's fine. We've turned out, okay? Yes. There's nothing wrong with it. No judgment. I love tell you do feel this sort of,

oh, should I be getting them outside and playing a game or making it a bit more active somehow. Yeah, and also if you wanted the flip from the office room, this is what it looks like, I guess. Finally, Becky, I just wanted to acknowledge because I think I was hearing that you, when you were at school, our school, they tried to deter you from doing GCSE art. Is that right?

And I was like, that must have been the same art teachers I had. Why is it we had such grumpy, horrible art teachers? Oh, they were so... They were really mean. Okay, I'm glad it's not just me. No, no, they were horrible. Like, weirdly more horrible than all the other subjects. It's so cross.

So cross. Furious. They hated me, but all the teachers hated me. I think I was the naughtiest girl in school. I cannot picture that. How were you naughty? How were you naughty? I was naughty.

I was naughty in like even like an enoblighting on steroids kind of way, like pranking. Really? Really. That's so incongruist how you present now. Do you remember we were given like a sanitary package at some point with a big pair of like paper and knickers in case we came on our periods? Were we? And I. Probably I was probably off seeing a boyfriend that day.

I put a chocolate mousse in it and threw it into. Miss Rudland's office. Oh. So now she knows that was me. Our year group, when we got to the last, you know, like the sick form, like last day, that was a lot of wet knickers thrown around the school, which was also thrown into Miss Rudland's office.

Blown up condoms. Yeah, all of that stuff. I just, I didn't like school. I was miserably miserable. I spent most of it. I was either having a fight with the teacher or I was not physical, but, you know, very verbal. And then, or I was just in the toilet crying.

I just wasn't happy. But yeah, I obviously loved art. It was my passion, and it's what I wanted to do. But my style was like very cartoon, you know, big bubble eyes and like cute bears and dogs. You know, I was 14. And I applied for art and they rejected me for GCSE. I didn't even know that they could. Imagine having the energy to reject children from their passion.

That's an interesting choice. Or a horrible, horrible thing that is. A kid that's like, wants to do something and you're like, also a kid that's maybe struggling a bit with conforming in school. but has got this creative place to put it. That's exactly what you'd now be hoping for. How wonderful you have something you love. Let's channel that lovely rebellion into the paper.

Exactly. So they said no, and it was awful. That is awful. I was broken and I felt so insecure about it. I wasn't good enough and I definitely carried that with me. I'm not really good. I shouldn't be allowed to do art. I'm not, you know.

And so I had a beg. They made me beg and I cried. And then eventually they relented after discussion, as long as I made my style more traditionally artistic. I knew I didn't like them. I'd like them even less. So I had to focus on still lives of fruit bowls and no cartooning. Wow. Well, I think you got the last laugh, but I don't know. I think that's pretty shoddy. Not cool. It's a shame, isn't it?

It's actually outrageous. But how I'm very happy that it didn't deter you from what you do. you can now share your gift well beyond that classroom. So thank you. Thank you to you and shame on them. Well, once you become a mum and you have kids, it gives you a whole different perspective on how you were treated as a kid. Definitely.

And that's been amazing, actually, because I'm like, oh my God, I didn't deserve that. I was only a kid. You see your child and you're like, they're precious and they need to be encouraged. And if they're struggling, it might be for a reason. And then you look back to the 80s, which was a brutal time. You're like, ah, maybe I wasn't just a total. or reprobate.

No. Maybe. I think you had a point. Maybe I had a point. Exactly. Well, thank you so much for today. It's been a joy to hang out with you. Oh, thank you.

And I'm here for whatever you do next. This has been such a great chat, Sophie. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much, Becky. And yes, you've got a last laugh with your glorious career. And as I mentioned at the start, Becky's beautiful book, Cry When the Baby Cries, is out now in paperback.

And it is genuinely. so lovely. So yeah. If you've got any friends that are having a baby, it's a really good book to get for them because it takes them by the hand, makes them feel less alone. And for me, it made me laugh out loud several times over, as well as recognising a lot of the situations that Becky so expertly cartoons. Can you say cartoons? I guess you can to cartoon. Is it a verb? Is it an adjective? Whatever it is, I love it. I am now in Southampton, actually. at the beginning of the episode I spoke to you from home in London

I've now driven to Southampton where I'm on stage in an hour I should probably get on with it I put my rollers on, they're heating up I've got my outfit ready I'm going to be doing a gig one hour's time and it's in support of McFly

who are headlining tonight they're on at half eight I'm on at quarter seven and I'm excited I'm at St Mary's Stadium in Southampton It's a really cool venue. They're expecting, I think they said, over 10,000 people there tonight.

So that should be cool. And, yeah, it's nice to be with the band. And I've got Tina back on Keys with me this week, which is lovely because we haven't seen her for a while. So it's, yeah, it's a really good reunion, good vibes. Everybody's in good spirits. And unlike yesterday at poor old Western Supermare, it's actually a nice dry evening.

No wind, no rain, happy days. Listen, I hope you're going to have a really lovely, week. I'm actually recording not one, not two, but three podcast episodes for later in the series this week, some really lovely people. But for now, thank you so much for joining me while I spoke to Becky. I hope she's inspired you to have a little doodle, but also to follow your instinct with your path. And so thank you so much to her for being such a glorious guest. Thank you to my producer Claire for producing the podcast yet again. It's so nice to work. with a friend. Thank you so much to my husband Richard for editing the podcast. Thank you to

LMA for the beautiful artwork. The biggest thank you of all to you for lending me your ears. Oh, Anne, thank you so much for your suggestions. Thank you for your reviews. Thank you for your suggestions. I love reading your reviews because honestly this podcast means so much to me. So if you're enjoying it and you bother to write about it on something, it really, really warms my heart. So thank you. And if you ever drop me in line with suggestions of future guests, I love it. You really challenge me and make me think about the whole podcast in a different way and also shape it to be what it is. And I want you to find your people here. I'm hoping that I speak to people. You're like, oh, I've always wondered what their inner story was when it comes to, you know, raising a family alongside building their career. So chuck me your suggestions. Test me, come on. All right, listen, have a wonderful weekway we get up to. I'll be here again next week with another guest. So sending you lots and lots of love. Thanks for lending your ears. Bye bye