Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 187: Lisa Oxenham

Episode Date: June 22, 2026

Lisa Oxenham is a mum to Eliza who’s 10 and to Wolfgang who’s nine and a half months old. She started out as beauty editor at More magazine and then worked for Marie Claire magazine for 20 years concentrating on beauty and, later, on wellness too.Lisa became a mum for the second time at the age of 50 and she now has her own YouTube channel concentrating on wellness and motherhood.She told me how she hit fertility problems in her 40s but her determination to have a sibling for Eliza meant she continued with her IVF journey through her 40s, and eventually had her much-longed for son Wolfgang as she entered her 50s. She told me how she’s experienced trolls telling her she’s too old to be a new mum, and will be too tired to bring up her baby, but she says she’s never had so much energy - or confidence - in her life before.Lisa certainly radiates joy in her new motherhood - and fittingly baby Wolfgang refused to be parted from her for this interview. So please excuse the background noises in this chat, as he explores the nooks and crannies of my living room during the recording! Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sophia L'Esta and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it all work. I'm a singer and I've released eight albums in between having my five sons, age between seven years old and nearly 22, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a little bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates. Hey, I'm feeling a little bit self-conscious and I'm trying to find a little quiet space because I'm recording this waiting for a flight and I just hope if people see me they think. I'm just like leaving a note for a friend rather than according an

instruction to a podcast. Not there's anything wrong with that, you know what I mean? Just don't want to seem like, I don't know, a bit of a brat. So I'm keeping my voice like this and I hope that's not distracting. I'm coming home from Copenhagen. Just did a festival here today. It's been very hot. I flew out of this morning and I'm going home tonight so that's good. I'm looking for me back

in my own bed. Looking forward to seeing my kids actually. It's been quite a busy week. I've had a gig in South of France earlier in the week and then last night I did a show in Hampton called Palace on the outskirts of London which was really gorgeous. I mean so pretty also so many fun facts.

for the beginning of the show. So I had lots of fun facts, which I won't bore you with, but I really enjoyed doing the research. It's a good way for me to do my little geeking out. I get quite nerdy about these details. And, yeah, join the sunshine. More gigs on the way. It's quite a lot of travel at the moment,

so I'm just trying to keep my head above water, really, because it's also end of term, so there's lots of stuff with that. We had Sports Day this week, summer fair today. parents even i've got a monday so you know just yeah living up to the title of the podcast essentially um my guest this week is a rare thing which is someone i'm actually friends with mostly i've i've got some incredible incredible friends but i've always been a bit wary of interviewing them for the podcast because it's quite an unusual dynamic introduced into a friendship but with lisa she has got a

public side and also so what I mean is so she's familiar with being interviewed and doing things like that but also her story's really interesting and I was like I think this actually is worthwhile so Lisa Oxdenham was a beauty editor at Mary Claire for over

20 years what she doesn't know about beauty is not worth knowing she really knows her stuff it covers all areas of beauty and wellness and she has 10 year old daughter called Eliza and she also has a little called Wolfgang, who is adorable. He is, oh, he must be, how many months is he now?

I think she said he's six months. He's a dinky tot, but he's super pooch. That's lovely. Actually, no he's old than six months. I'm going to say he's eight months. He's that lovely stage where he's made of circles. They're nice and chubby, spent all his time crawling around on the floor. Very happy baby.

When Lisa was pregnant with him, she decided to give up her job and marry Claire and go alone with our YouTube channel and with Instagram community, all focused on wellness. So follow her if you want someone who really lives what they speak and looks really well on it. So there's a few things that are remarkable. Lisa is a single mum. Lisa made the decision that she wanted to give her daughter a sibling

and spent four years attempting to become pregnant. with Wolfgang. So there's a happy ending, but it's a baby that she had to go through IVF to have, and all of this happened resulting in the fact that she had her baby the same year she turned 50. Now, she's a brilliant advert for this. She looks wonderful, but she radiates happiness. You will hear her talk about the fact that she did feel like she had to keep her foot on the pedal the whole time, and she's only recently allowed herself the kind of slight, moment of putting the brakes on and going, okay, I'm actually really tired, this has been a lot. But she feels empowered, she feels really good, and she feels fulfilled by the life that she's

creating for herself and her babies. So I'm so, so grateful to her for talking to me, and I'm sorry I'm talking in such a weird, her voice. But I do, as I said, a fair bit self-conscious in the airport about talking about all this stuff. But it is going to be, such a gorgeous conversation. I have actually just checked my notes. Wolfgang is nine and a half months, and I think that's still pretty accurate because I only recorded with Lisa last week.

So it's a pretty recent one. Oh, definitely worth mentioning that while we were talking, Wolfgang was crawling around the floor. So producer Claire had to, she was basically on her hands and knees trying to stop Wolfgang from going through the, like, have a drinks trolley and sitting around

He was grabbing at that. He was under the table. I promise he was safe. He was super happy. And he was, yeah, Claire was beaming looking after such beautiful baby. Yeah, it did provide the odd distraction. But actually, I think we managed to hold it down and still have a really good conversation. So thank you to Lisa for that.

And thank you to Claire for looking after Wolfgang so that we could sit and have a good conversation. And every once in a while he'd, like, go under the table and I'd fill him on my shoes, on my feet. He was very, very sweet. Anyway, enough muttering. Here's Lisa and I have our chat and I'll speak to your next side. I have to say it's really nice having a baby in the house in the moment.

I'm enjoying that. This house has had so many babies in it but not my own for a while now that my youngest is seven. But Wolfgang's such a beautiful baby, Lisa. He is absolutely gorgeous. I love him so much. He's got such an amazing character.

He's really strong. He's a really big, strong baby. It's got the strongest, strongest hands. It's amazing. So did you always want to be a mother? Really, really wanted to be a mum, yes. I remember, one of my first memories, I think, was talking to a friend that lived down the road. And I remember saying, I want four children. And it really was a conscious thing. I grew up with a lot of cousins around me. We see them every week. There were 12 of us, I think, if not more. And I've got a brother and sister.

And so there were children all around me. And I really felt like motherhood was my purpose. I always felt like that. And then, yeah, and then I just moved to London in my early 20s, knew that I wanted to get into magazines and then two decades went by really quickly so yeah that was that was the thing and did the world of working in a magazine

did it feel like it was conducive to motherhood or did you feel like you had to be kind of quite sort of careerist for that time or maybe just enjoying it and not thinking about it at all yeah no I am I was always really set on working for Mary Claire I really loved the title. It was very much talking about, you know, the world and women's rights and female empowerment and all of that side of things. So it had the glamour, but also, you know, it had that other side, which was really sort of purpose-led and conscious. And I really wanted to be part of that.

And also creatively, Mary Claire was incredible. You know, the beauty team would do these incredible shoots all over the world. and these lovely cover stories and fashion shoots. So I always knew that when I knew that I wanted to get into magazines, I knew that Mary Claire would be the place that I really wanted to stay and build my career there. Was it always beauty, that aspect? And it was always beauty, yeah.

And I used to shoot covers and stuff like that as well, but it was beauty that I really wanted to be a fashion stylist, actually. and then I got into beauty PR and then my beauty journalism side came off the back of that. Yeah. And I really had to work hard on my career because it's such a competitive area. Yeah, I can imagine that.

Publishing and particularly what I was doing. And so I really, really focused. focused on my career, yeah. Yeah, and when you talk about beauty at the beginning, was it always the same world in terms of wellness as well? Or is that something that sort of evolved culturally? Yeah, definitely. It's definitely evolved. And beauty back then 20 years ago,

when I first started at Marie Claire, before that I worked for in style, as beauty editor in style, and before that was at Moore Magazine. Do you remember Moore Magazine? I remember it very well. Yeah, which is incredible. I bought a stack of them from a car boot sale when I was too young to be reading More magazine. Oh, really?

And I used to hide it inside Smash Hits. Oh, really? Oh, my God, that is so funny. It was pretty raunchy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then quite funny a moment because there used to be a model that they'd feature in it quite a lot called Colette. For some reason, her name and her face always really stayed with me. And then my mum, when we moved to the house, we moved into when I was 11, they got new neighbours.

and she said, it was a lady called Colette, and the first Colette that popped by was that Clette. No way, that's hilarious. She'd often be like, you know, they have a position of the fortnight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you work there. Yeah.

It was a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant title. It was so huge. You know, we sold half a million every fortnight. It was such a brilliant title. And I started there as a beauty editor. So that's how I got into beauty. And I just loved it. I was never really into beauty.

I was more into fashion. So it was a lot of learning about, you know, what our audience would want out of their beauty pages. But I really loved the sort of shoot side, the beauty shoot side. I really felt like I excelled in that sort of creative environment, working with amazing photographers and teams. And I also really loved

the business side so more commercially, I would build, you know, I would help the advertising team a lot and partnerships and that sort of thing. And I've always loved that side. Yeah. But 25 years ago, it was definitely more about hairstyles, makeup. There was just so many sort of very crazy, gimmicky marketing, so much marketing language during that time that people just were allowed. to say there was there was a lot of things like you know this smell is going to make you thinner um all of that type of thing at that time and um it was definitely more about makeup and then i always believed in um it's not just what you put on your skin it's about what you put inside your body and it's about how you feel about yourself and it's it was all about that sort of emotional health and well-being

and how that related to beauty yeah and so that's sort of of what I really loved talking about at Mary Claire. So with all that in mind, when you get to the point where you meet someone and have Eliza, how are you feeling at that point about this idea of this sort of idea you had of these four babies and what your life might look like? Did it all kind of feel like, okay, well, you know, things have followed a different path and here we are and sort of quite instinctive?

It was quite, I feel like it's quite tricky. because I went through my 30s having the most incredible time with my career. And I absolutely loved my job. And I was traveling all over the world with all these big brands and I was shooting all over the world. And it was just so exciting. There were so many opportunities and so much access to, like, you know, incredible women and experts.

And I was at the time, had a serious relationship with somebody called Nick. And he was amazing. We had a great time, but we split up at the end of my 30s. And it was then that I suddenly realized that, oh my God, I don't have children. And I think this has happened to quite a few people that I've spoken. to as well is that you go through your 30s and not you don't understand the urgency of time around fertility and I you know speak to speak to so many experts and interview so many people all the time but fertility was never on my radar and um and I panicked and I was like oh my God what am I

going to do and I you know dated and then I met Eliza's dad and we had Eliza and and we had Eliza and it was amazing and she's so beautiful and it was just, I just love Eliza so, so much. But at the time, we were renovating a property in the Cotswolds and it was very stressful and we ended up sadly splitting up when she was quite little. And it was then that I was sort of grieving in a way. obviously the relationship didn't work out and it was sad

and I felt sad for Eliza that, you know, she didn't have that, you know, traditional, the traditional parents, like a family set up. But I was also grieving the fact that I hadn't, that I only had one child and I always wanted to have, you know, four. And then I just, I was just sort of trying to work out how I was going to still make, try to make that happen. But at that stage, that was my early 40s, and then COVID happened, all the clinics shut.

And I sort of felt like I'd, yeah, missed my opportunities, but I don't give up easily with anything. Yes. And if I want something, then I will try and try and try to make something happen. So I'm sort of picturing this, imagining that's like a hum, right? So you've got your beautiful daughter and your life is blossomed into this whole other shape. You're in a new place, new chapter. That world of how you've been living in your 30s is very different to this entering into your 40s. And you're thinking, I cannot turn down this sound in my head of, is there the possibility of adding.

to our family and what would it look like for Eliza to have a sibling? Yeah. What would it look like for us to be a, you know, a bigger us? Yeah. And so are you having, is it quite, like conversations you're having with people sort of seeking things out or, I mean, I mean, you say you don't give up, but if it was me, I can imagine myself going very, kind of, very stringent on research, start just looking around. How does this work?

What anecdotally can I find out about other women in my situation? what have they done? What options do I have? So were you quite sort of... Yeah, although thinking of it, there weren't, I didn't, I don't think I spoke to many people at all about it. I just sort of was obviously working for Mary Clow at the time. I had Eliza. I was still dealing with the renovation in Australia. We had COVID at the time. And I, the only thing that I could do really was talk to the clinics and because it's actually really, it's a difficult topic to research still. Yeah.

When you say clinics, is this just like a fertility clinic? Fertility clinics, yeah. And what greeted you when you went in there and having those first conversations? It was all very normal. So I would just tell them what I wanted, and it was just me, and I would have to use a donor for sperm. And it's not unusual to any of them. So they're very matter of fact.

They're like, okay, you can do this, this and this. This is where you can get your donor from. And they explain the process. And it's just, I actually went to about three different clinics in the end. To find somewhere that you felt. had the atmosphere that you felt right? Yeah, although I did start IVF at one clinic and I moved to another one

and then from that one I did most of my IVF there and then I moved to the London Women's Clinic in the end who actually London Women's Clinic are actually amazing and it was very easy there. I just found the other ones quite difficult to work with. Yeah, because I mean, I'm... And I'm really aware this is all...

I want you to feel, you know, you're leading the charge of how, with what you're telling me and when. So I'm trying to be very sort of, be sensitive around it as possible because I think some of this is... This is all, obviously, very personal, but also I know there'll be people listening

that will be thinking, this is absolutely what I want to explore. Maybe they haven't got any children yet, or maybe they want to add. to the family they have. Yeah. And so within that space, what was your support network like in your day-to-day life? You know, is this through like your friends and family or is it something you were keeping really quite close to your chest at that time? I think I was keeping it all close to my chest. I mean, I've got a really incredible group of friends who I absolutely love.

and if it wasn't for them, I might not have done this. But also I, you know, just came out of this relationship with Eliza's dad and then, yeah, we had lockdown. So it was actually really difficult, but I knew that if I didn't look into this then, then it wouldn't maybe happen. So I'm just thinking about, you know, also the people that are messaging, me a lot on Instagram and what's going to be helpful for them as well.

Of course, yeah. And what I probably say was that, yeah, I just knew that I wanted to do it. So I literally did it step by step. Yeah. So contacting the clinics, contacting the sperm banks, and just going through everything, yeah, just step by step. and just trust, you have to put so much trust in the doctors and the experts. Yeah. And you have to have so many tests and you have to have, you know, there's a lot that you have to do during IVF. And so just for the chronology, I mean, the lovely thing about our conversation

is that we are starting with a happy ending. That little bug that the happy ending is literally roaming free around the sitting room as we talk. But I think, I think, I think I'm not surprised you've had so many messages because you've been such a glorious advert for one of a better words for how radiant motherhood can look and to see the pictures of you when you had your 50th birthday with this bubba

it just just the goodness absolutely beams out of those pictures and I think it's just such a wonderful thing really glorious and I imagine that there's just so many people out there that will be thinking they want to know everything so what are the questions

where does it normally start when people get in touch with you what are they asking you and then we can also move on to how it's absolutely radically changed your life in terms of your working life and how you're structuring your world around both your children now and yourself and also making time for yourself too

and the life the bigness of your own life too and yourself. I mean, there's a lot of people that are messaging me firstly saying that they really want to do the same. There's a lot of people that, yeah, maybe haven't had children yet

or have had one, had a relationship breakdown and then they want another one as a sibling. And they're scared about whether they can do it on their own. that's like a really big thing. And were you scared about that too? Do you know what?

I said to somebody the other day that I don't think I... I mean, I said in that Vogue piece that this is the most self-aware decision that I've ever made. And of course it is. But it is also hard. It's hard to have two kids with a career and build your own business.

And, you know, and work. It is really hard. But equally, it's incredible. And I cannot believe that I went through it all and did it. I know. Do you even now just feel like absolute pinch me? Do you almost feel like you're living in like the version of reality that ended up with the baby? Exactly. But I also can't believe how long it took me and how long it took me and the strength that I had to have to get here. Like I actually can't believe I did it. Because we're talking about four years, is that right? Yeah, it was four years, yeah.

And that's meaning the sort of more practical aspect of, I guess, the actual intentional, you know, starting the process, let alone the bit before that of all the... It's like five years, five or six years, really. Yeah. So there's, you know, there's a lot of people that have said they're scared, and they're scared of going through it, and they're scared of doing it on their own,

and they're scared of having a baby on their own, afterwards as well and yeah I was I was scared but I because I was so set on the outcome I just plowed through and and had it going in the background it became part of my day to day life that that's what I was getting up for every morning I was getting up to look after Eliza and do my work but also I was getting up to plow on with this IVF situation yeah um but I would also say that I feel so proud and I have so much confidence now in myself because I feel like I've done it and I'm like oh my God if I can do that then anyone can and also you know I mean it's it's so difficult it's difficult emotionally it's difficult financially and incredibly difficult and it's

it's also difficult to have, you know, to find the time to do it and the energy to do this. I'll imagine as well aspects of it pretty lonely because you, I think there's enough about parent hooker that can feel really isolating anyway but you are having to be absolutely present for Eliza keep pushing the wheel with your work projects

building the life around you, but also how to navigate your own emotions without that sounding board of the other person that would be possibly there, like also, you know, sharing in the same... This is something you're like a warrior, basically, with your doing it on your own terms. And being so intentional, as you said,

about how you're treating your body, how you're looking after yourself. Every bit of it is sort of geared towards this... this journey. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the thing. I mean, that's why my friends are so important to me

because they are with me 24-7. Like, I have a really amazing group of friends who I love so much and I speak to you on the phone every single day, like more than once, which is amazing. And I just don't think I'd be able to get through it without them. Yeah. I mean, they are so generous to me.

it's just they've got so much love for me and that's just incredible I literally feel emotional talking about it that can buoy up a lot can't it yeah and um you know I just I think doing IVF on your own

is very very difficult but you have a lot of amazing people around you as well like the doctors like the guy in the pharmacy on Baker Street who is just amazing the pharmacist there. He was so incredible. I'd go in and I'd be crying to him about, you know, something or another and he would give me a hug and he'd say,

this is what you need to do. And he would give me personal advice. How lovely. This pharmacist. Yeah, he was amazing. Oh my gosh, shout out for him. And, but, you know, I think it is a lonely process because you're doing it at home on your own

and you're injecting yourself with this huge needle in your bum. So it's like even you can't, even reach behind to do it. So, you know, it's that sort of thing. And did you have an idea of if this doesn't work, this is how long I'm going to, or this is when I'm going to just, or you're just thinking, I'm just going to stay in the moment. And for as long as I feel okay and I'm looking after myself, I will just keep moving forward. Yeah, I mean, you do with IVF because you've invested so much time, effort, money into it and energy and your dreams. And you have to stay focused and positive that it's going to happen because you you sort of think in your mind

if you don't think that then it's not going to happen why would you bother it's like if you're negative about it then there's just you know it's a very you put yourself into a really difficult place mentally yeah i suppose yeah i can see that but i suppose we'll be humans aren't we so whenever we're dealing with anything where the outcome is uncertain it's hard not to try and prepare yourself for every eventuality. Because that's how, sometimes how we, and through all your positivity, you're also dealing with,

I can see you're also quite pragmatic and you're having to, you know, this is a process. Yeah. So I think that's a lot to think about too for yourself, isn't it, in the moment? Yeah. Weirdly, I mean, I always just plowed through. There's a lot of ways that it can work nowadays,

and there's a lot, you know, and I sort of did plough through, but weirdly, I think it was when I had just turned 49. I, oh no, sorry, it was when I just turned 48, I was beginning to sort of feel like it wasn't going to happen. And weirdly, it was the first time that I just thought, actually, it's okay. it's okay you gave it your best shot and there's other things that you can do in your life you can meet somebody beautiful you can you know

make the most of Eliza and like I just I became this I just felt like it's okay to let it go yeah yeah and then it worked so how did that feel when it worked um I mean I was just absolutely over the moon and I did the test with Eliza, actually.

I was going to ask about her involvement with all of this and how where she was. Because obviously the two of you must be so incredibly close. Yeah, we are very, very, very close, actually, very close. And she knew every step of the way. Like she's nine now, she's almost 10. But at the time, you know, I never injected in front of her and I kept a lot of the IVF away from her,

but she knew what I was doing. And, yeah, I mean, she's just learned so much about biology now. It's amazing. Yeah, and also I think it's special because children don't see things the way we do, and they don't project into different versions of the future. So she would probably have just thought, okay, and then when she's older, if, you know, she'll only remember it as a sort of a thing that was happening alongside all the things

she's discovering about her world and herself. Yeah. You know, because we don't, in you're little, you don't take on your parents' emotions to that extent because you're seeing everything from your own perspective. Yeah, yeah, true. I mean, I never told her when it didn't work. So I might have a little cry, but I'm just,

but at this stage, after doing it for so long, you just sort of, well, for me, anyway, I just had a little cry and then I'd move on and carry on. It wasn't like I was absolutely, distraught in a way which is quite a strange thing because it was just a part of what I was doing it was so lot it happened it went on for so long yeah and I guess so she didn't feel that sort of you know shouldn't fit I hopefully she didn't feel how upset I might have been because I never sort of was upset in front of her um but when it was positive when the test was positive she was

over the moon and actually we had the stick and I obviously tried it and everything and we took it to my mum's house and Eliza passed it to my mum when my mum was talking and mum didn't know what it was she was just waving it around finishing off her conversation

and I was like mum look at the stick that you're holding and she literally screamed and we were like oh my God so Eliza remembers that and it was just really a funny moment and everything yeah wow And then I was, you know, growing this bump and Eliza was kissing it all the time and she would read to it every night, which was really sweet. There's also something really lovely about that story with your mum about the sort of three generations of the women as well, you know?

Exactly. It must have felt like what a lucky baby Wolfgang is to be born into this, such a sort of strength in that. We have a very special relationship with my mum and she's just been incredible. and she has looked after Eliza a lot. She does a lot of the sort of pick up from school, take her to gym, you know, that sort of thing during the week. So I've been really lucky in that respect that we live really close by.

And she's been a massive support. And she knew about everything with the IVF. And she's just been really amazing and understanding. And she's always, my mum has always said to me, if you want something, go and get it. And I've always been like that, apparently. So she's, yeah, she's just been such a major support to all of us. And she's like Eliza's second mom, really.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it sounds like for the, you know, I know that she's someone I've heard you talk about before. And, you know, you've spoken to be about your, like, that support system that you have around you and how that important that is. Yeah. But also, I think for you to be able to share that with her and for her to be able to be a sounding board and someone to kind of scoop you up when you need it as well and giving you that nurture.

It's so important. Yeah, exactly. It is. When we were approaching our meeting up today, you sent me a very thoughtful, I suppose, a little map of what you wanted to cover in our conversation today. One of the things I saw in there, which I think makes total sense,

but I was a bit like, oh yeah, I hadn't even thought of that, was talking about dating alongside it. So what can you tell me about that and how that was involved in your life? Because obviously that's something you are still open to having as part of your world and actually would really like to share your life with someone, I'm sure. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I really would love to have a relationship and I've always felt that way. I think it's been tricky for me because I live in Stroud and it doesn't seem to be that.

I don't know I don't, it's quite difficult to socialise in the countryside that's the problem. I live next to you're an amazing pub called the Walpac and have you been? I've been there. It's beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which I absolutely love. But dating is just, it's just really non-existent. And in fact, the dating... You can't just hang out at the wolfpack and see who turns up. No. It's really tricky. And dating is a really difficult, world at the moment with dating apps and I mean I've known a lot of people that have met on dating

apps and they're really happy together which is amazing but it's it's quite rare that that happens nowadays it's very hard nobody goes out maybe it's just my age I don't know no I think from what I've heard anecdotally I feel like um but what dating apps can be a place where you just get some really funny stories out of it rather than like meeting someone where you're like, oh, this is really wonderful. I mean, I've had some ridiculous stories, and my friends have had ridiculous stories as well. Like, actually, one guy said, it was on Raya,

and he was like, aren't you pregnant? And it was when I was pregnant. I had a bump on Instagram. He looked at my Instagram. And I said, yeah, and he said, well, let's meet up. It's a story of nothing else. And I was just like, oh, my God. And I had a lot of dates.

Well, I dated a lot actually during the time of doing IVF before I was pregnant. Because I also didn't think somebody would come in and swoop me up and say they want to have a child with me. Because I knew that that wasn't going to happen. Because, you know, I'd meet somebody. I was older. So I would have had to push through the relationship to let's have a baby stage really fast. and I knew that that probably wasn't going to happen. But I still dated because I still have needs.

I still wanted to be, you know, have intimacy or just have a bit of fun and that side of things. And you never know what that other person might have wanted. Yeah, and I guess, you know, look, it's always a different thing if you're dating as a single parent, full stop, let alone also going through a fertility journey at the same time. I mean, that comes with its own complication. But I think when you get to our stage in life, everybody's got their own story going on and the fact that you're self-sufficient and have goals and, you know, a whole life you've got planned would not...

It wouldn't be surprising for anybody, but it's at the same time, yeah, it's something that would be a factor. Like, if you're going to date me, you date my full life, everything I bring with it. Yeah, exactly. So I did tell the date when we would meet that that was what I was doing. I probably shouldn't have been that honest because I don't think I saw any of them.

Again, no. I did date, you know, a couple of people and more than once throughout the IVF. And actually, they were really fine about it all. And they were really loving and kind. I had a couple of people say, well, actually, you can use my sperm if you like. but they didn't want to date anymore. So it is very odd. That's a real mixed message, I would say.

Oh my God, yeah. It's very funny. A little bit of ego in there maybe. Exactly. And I'd be like, I don't want your sperm, actually. Thank you for suggesting it. Very odd, actually. And I do feel like it's difficult for men.

to commit at the moment for some reason. Yeah, but I suppose as well, like, look, what amazingly sort of, what I'm going to try and say, if you're dating someone who's got such a full life, but also such a intention of what they would like for their future, I think that can probably, you know, if people don't have the to have the same intention for themselves, or maybe they're feeling a bit more woolly about their future, that not everybody has such clarity of thought. Yeah, maybe.

That they can match that. So I think it's just what happens to people when they're at different stages in their life or working out what they want. Yeah, well, that's a really big thing. Timing is everything. Exactly. Timing.

And talking about timing, since Wolfgang has been part of your world, it sounds like everything has shifted. So you left Mary Claire after 20 years, and now everything you're doing is about embracing and bringing in your full 360 world into your work life too. Yeah.

So let's talk about where you found yourself with all of that and how everything's changed in every direction. Yeah, it's been... It's becoming a mum again. I mean, it's been incredible. I was so scared. like I've never felt fear like it, um, leaving Marie Claire because, you know, I sort of felt like it was 20 years. It was 2025.

Um, it was a good place to stop. And, um, I also was pregnant and I knew that I would have three months maternity leave. And as a solo parent, I didn't have any financial support. So I had to work out how I was going to make it work so that I could take longer off over maternity leave. So I left Marie Claire knowing that, knowing the business that I wanted to set up. I wanted to build a YouTube channel.

I've been working for Mary Claire for so long that I'm talking about, I've been talking about the same things that I really am very passionate about and really believe for so long. So that's around sustainability in the beauty industry, it's about emotional health and well-being and how that integrates with beauty. I talk about creativity and sort of purpose-led beauty. and I've had that in my DNA for a long time being at Mary Claire because that's what I've always spoken about. Yeah.

But I can see that there's an area that there's a bit of a gap when there isn't this information out there for people that are creating awareness around purpose-led topics in the beauty industry. Yeah. So that's why I wanted to start the YouTube channel. And I thought when I was pregnant, it's a really good time to leave and build this for myself. so that I can build the business before I gave birth

and then take a little bit of time off and then have that business waiting for me to step into it and carry on during my maternity leave. So it's a really complicated way of explaining that. No, no, but it's funny. Actually, I'm really struck by the fact that you said that that's a really good time when you're pregnant to move on from that and set up a new business.

I actually love the ambition of that because I think for some people that might be like quite a scary time, you must have just felt imbued with a certain kind of energy and focus and purpose. Exactly. That made that make sense. And it's also so easy when I'm sat here, you know, to be thinking about, you know, intentional living when you're looking after your body, you're thinking of what's going into it, you're basically wanting to make sure you're ready to get pregnant,

to grow the baby, to be a strong. healthy mother for your children, it seems so natural when I'm talking to you. Like, well, of course you work in the beauty. But actually, the fact that that was always the thing you were doing is it's almost like the full scale of all the choices you've made as you throughout your adult life. It must have felt like all roads were almost leading to this point. Yeah, exactly. Which is kind of crazy because all these strands, you know, you could have, maybe you did end up being the fashion stylist. Maybe you did end up staying in a different relationship with a different outcome. But now that we're sat here and now with this beautiful bubble crawling around and, you know,

nine-year-old Eliza, or in your full life, but such intentional living, and I'm using that word a lot I know, but I think it's because it really is so crucial, I think, to why it all feels so woven together, all these threads. That, yeah, it must just feel like you've hit this point where it's like, you know there's that old adage of like life begins at 50. Yeah. But it actually does feel like this chapter of like, okay, all this stuff is leading to now. Yeah, exactly. I, weirdly, I was on holiday, I've just come back from being in Lanzarotti for the week.

And because I've been so, so, so, like, gung ho about my career and about my business and about looking after Wolfgang and Eliza and so, so busy and so, like, it. you know, focused when I was pregnant, and then when I had him, and then really busy building the business. And it was the first time that I actually stopped. And I just literally just cried because I was just like, oh, my God,

I can't believe that I've just gone through all of that. My life, I mean, I'm used to working really quickly. I'm used to having a really fast-paced life because of being a journalist in a magazine that is just so, so fast. So I'm used to working like that, but it's, I feel like through this last year and a half, I've been suppressing a lot. And when I was in Lanzarotti, I was like, I literally felt like this explosion, like a volcano in Lanzarotti that I was just like, oh my God, I can't believe that.

I've just gone through all of that. And one thing that really came up was my 40s. And I was a bit like, oh, how did I go through? my 40s like that, I just, I feel like there was a lot going on. And I've learned a lot from all of it. So the first part was, you know, trying to set up my new life after a broken down relationship with Eliza. And then there was COVID.

And then, I mean, I guess a lot of people feel this because of COVID. And then the second half was all about IV. and you know i just feel like that's a whole decade yeah and so i was sort of like releasing yeah that on holiday as much as i could looking after two kids by a pool um and then but now i just sort of feel like a lot lighter and like it's okay to feel like i'm letting go that decade of like that was really hard. So do you feel like you've had a lot to carry in terms of proving to yourself

and to lots of other people that not only could you go after this but also that you were going to be able to absolutely carry it no matter what? Because it could be easy for people to say, you know, I mean people say stupid things all the time. Anyway, they're very tactless and you know what it's like.

I mean, I remember when I was pregnant with my first baby, I bumped into someone. And I said, oh, any advice? And you went, get out while you can. No, you won't be able to leave the house in a bit. And you just never forget these things, do you? And then you're like, right, okay, pack that in my, put that in my rucksack. Yeah, I know.

It's terrible. And so you're sort of scooping up these comments and you're thinking, I have got to just push on, show up for myself, show up for the kids, keep on, keep on. And it is a relentless mindset. And that's when I've got, you know, I remember when you remember when you message me, you said the one thing you're really feeling like you need to get really nail now is the support network. Because I guess in the bigger picture, I know you've got your friends and

your mother, but your daily thing, that punctuation mark of, as you said, I think you mentioned it to me, the sort of 6pm kind of like, right, hand on your back, like, how was your day? You know, that bit? That is a lot. There's something that I'm not surprised you get on holiday and you're like, oh my word, I'm letting a decade out now. And also coping with circumstance change. And you say a breakup of a relationship and it's constantly like, right, okay, well, I'll scoop us up then and we'll make sure that there's food on the table and, you know, you're uniform ready for the morning. And it's a lot of things, I think that, well, it traditionally, not always, but traditionally

falls to the mother to provide those things and to be quite unflagging and scooping up so that the little person in their life is just as unawful. where as possible and everything's kept as consistent and smooth. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So, because I've written about this quite a lot in the press, I have had the odd troll.

And they do talk about, like, you're so old, you're going to be so tired, you're never going to be able to look after your children because you're of your age. You won't have energy. And I have more energy now than I've ever had in my life. have more clarity, I have more focus, I have more confidence than I ever have. And that's only a good thing to looking after kids. So the confidence is a lovely thing to celebrate. Yeah. And do you think that comes from trusting yourself and from knowing yourself like you do now and from experience as well? Yeah, both. And I just also, I also feel like so many people want to celebrate this amazing

you know, journey. And they would want to do it too. And I just feel like, oh my God, well, I've done it. And this is how you can do it. You do wonder what motivates someone to write those comments anywhere. I mean, what motivates them? I know. What is that about?

What is going on in their world? Well, exactly. That feels like an appropriate thing to... Exactly. But what's, what I've found really incredible is that, you know, I've left those comments on all of my posts. And I just think, look, the world needs to see this. And so many women have my back on this.

And they're like, you know, and they're saying the same. They're like, what motivated you to say that? This is from you. This isn't about her. This is about you. Absolutely. With trolls, you know. And it's just, and I feel confidence in that as well.

Because it's like I'm allowed to do, I'm allowed to have a baby whenever I want in my life. and so is everybody else. You can do later motherhood whenever you want. You can be a mother whenever you want. Absolutely, and it's a lot more, it seems to be a lot more prevalent as well. I see so many examples of high-profile women in their 40s, having babies. It just feels like that whole, it's really shifted.

I don't know if it's because I'm in my 40 somewhere. of it now, but it just feels like there's a lot more of that that's being written about, and it's not with the side-on look anymore. It's just a kind of, it's not commented on in the same way, certainly from where I'm sitting anyway. Yeah, no, I don't think it is. I don't think it is. The celebration is important too.

I think that's a lovely word. Yeah. Talk about celebration. I think people as well can feel threatened by people who seem to be living their life in a way that's working for them. Well, that doesn't necessarily. necessarily follow what they would call a typical or traditional trajectory. People just find that unnerving. And I don't know if it's because they felt like they weren't allowed to explore

all their hopes and desires as they were younger, so they've shut bits of themselves down. I don't know. It's just a very sad way to live. I don't understand the psychology of it, but I think people sometimes do just feel a bit threatened and want to knock spots of people where they seem to be listening to themselves and actually acting on what they're hearing matters to them? Yeah, yeah. I'm not, I think... I have to say, as well, while we're talking,

we've now got this absolutely cherubic Bubba sleeping in your arms. I mean, look at him. Oh, my goodness. Look at his little mouth going, thinking he's still on the boob. It's very sweet. He's very sweet. I do think there is a lot to be said for knowing what you want in life and going for it. And that's a really big, I think it was during COVID I put a vision board together.

Have you ever done a vision board? No, I haven't, but I've thought about it because I hear people talk about it quite a lot. And I guess it's a way to give a bit of clarity. It is, yeah. Is it literally, did you have a sort of large bit of paint card and just start? Yeah, exactly. a cork board and I just had a load of pictures and I printed them off and cut them all up and stuck them on this board. And it was, so I would sit at my kitchen desk and the board would be

right behind the screen of my laptop so I'd always look at the board. So it had a baby on that. It had, and this was like six years ago, I think. I had a baby, it had a house near a lake, It had me filming in Africa or something in a little village with a baby on my back and holding Eliza's hand. It had all of this stuff on that that I really saw where I want my future to go sort of thing. And it had a YouTube channel, picture on that. It had filming on there. It had me at Parliament, like fighting for causes that I really can.

head about all of this stuff. And within a year, things started coming and started happening. And it was so incredible. And I would tell people about it all the time. And I'd be like, I can't believe that this is happening. But of course, it's like, I'm seeing all this stuff that I really want to do. Of course I'm going to build my path towards it. That's extremely.

And it's just, I cannot believe how I've made this stuff happen. Yes. And it's so easy in a way because you just decide, well, I mean, the hard. part is about deciding what you really want to do and that's what I need to do now is find out I was going to say what's next then what's the cork board um well that's the thing and I wonder your holiday was such a release because I think you put so much into this you've almost got to now give yourself a chance to like just let go of a lot of how focused you've been yeah and all of that time and energy and intensity of thought, you know, and all the injections and the monitoring.

And it's a lot. Exactly. So like release. I need to give myself a proper break. And that's from everything, from the dating apps, from working so relentlessly. And that's when I really decided in Lanzarotti that I was going to do. and that's what I need to do for myself because I literally felt like it was just too much.

I mean we had, we've been quite sick this year, which is probably because I've been doing too much. I'm sure I've had COVID a couple of times and we also had the norovirus. So on the way to Lanzarotti, Eliza was sick on me on the train. Oh no. Oh, it's always on the way to the airport and all that, isn't it? disgusting like literally all over me and wolfguile was like oh my god we just sort of left the

carriage um and uh i just feel like yeah now i could really just do with a break from everything and stop like maybe stop focusing so much now so that i can just sort of yeah just be just be and let things flow for a bit without forcing stuff and um because there's there's a there was a lot of that in my 40s yeah so yeah so. So, yeah, and also just allow yourself to sit in the, where the path led you. Like, it's actually, exactly. You're there now. Like, okay.

Exactly. And even with, you know, even with my YouTube channel, it's like I'm excited just to let that flow. And I've got like a team of people behind me now. And, you know, that was a really big thing. Actually, leaving Mary Claire was not working in a team. It was just me. Yeah. But actually, I've created my own team.

And they're amazing. And there are people that I love working with. And it's just, you know, so it's just even with YouTube now, it's, I love doing the work, but it's not sort of, it's not, you know, going full speed at everything, anything and everything all the time anymore. Yeah, yeah. And I was thinking as well, it must be amazing seeing Eliza as a big sister

and how that's blossomed as well. Eliza's incredible. She's absolutely amazing. You've known Eliza since she was a tiny sister. baby and she's so cute and she's just stepped into this sort of big sister role and she's she's gained confidence as well um it's like we've been yeah we've worked and we're in parallel with each other um and she absolutely adores wolfgang i've never seen anyone love anyone's like she's just so so sweet um with him and she sort of picks him up carries him around she hates hearing him cry

she won't let him cry she just you know she's she loves feeding him she loves bathing him she's just a really cute little mom it's really sweet it really makes me smile because it's so reminds me of how i felt about my brother and he was born when i was eight and that was my first sibling and i was absolutely obsessed with jack honestly and it's just so cute that we work together now it's like it's really sweet but it's like absolutely changed my life and yeah i just i was like that I would put him to bed, I'd give him his bottle, I'd bath him, I just, yeah, absolutely obsessed. Amazing. You have a really good relationship with him. Yeah. I don't think, you know, she's never once been jealous of him.

Like, you can just tell, you can see it. She's just very, yeah, she wants to keep him very safe and very happy. He's a lucky bubba. He is. It's funny. Yeah, I mean, I suppose one of the things you touched on, actually, is about how we need this honest conversation about mother. and about how it's, I suppose, you know, you've given so much of yourself to the pursuit of motherhood, but also about making sure you've got room for yourself. And I guess when you touched on the necessity, the not luxury, the necessity of support, that falls under that banner too, because

having support is about part of giving yourself what you need, so you're not just this, I think sometimes with, especially with motherhood when the children are young, you can end up feeling a bit hollowed out at the end of it on days and when you're tired and, you know, you put your needs so far down the list. So I think it's important, I think you're right that having an honest conversation about, about all of ourselves that we are and how all of that needs attention as well, rather than just sort of being this sort of, I've often felt like a bit of a husk sometimes. Yeah. I mean, it was really difficult when I had Eliza. I remember thinking that I just lost myself and I felt awful. And I just, I think it was a combination of lots of things. We were renovating a house at the time. So there was dust everywhere and I was constantly trying to hoover it up. And, you know, and I just, I just didn't feel like myself at all. My hair was so thick and dark and it's just like, my hair was a really big thing. It really changed. the way I looked. I felt and I felt. So this time around, and actually it was around that time

that I just got super healthy. I really wanted to eat well, sleep well. I gave up drinking alcohol at the time just because even having a glass of wine made me feel awful in the morning. So at that time, I sort of did all this stuff to change my life so that I felt better. Like I felt like my mental health was better and I felt like I looked better and I just felt generally I had more energy. So this time round I had everything that I knew

how I would feel better about myself. So you've been conscious about making sure you prepared that for yourself and gave your things. Exactly. I prepare, I over-prepared before he was born. When you said over-prepared, what do you mean by that? I just prepared everything, his nursery, the food. I mean, I was literally batch-cooked, stewed apples

put them all in the freezer. I was like, I was literally trying to make everything easier for me so that when he was born, I could just eat those stewed apples and not reach for like croissants and like pastries. And I just felt like I really knew what made me feel good. Without sounding too tweed, you think that means that your relationship with yourself is better as well? I think so, yeah, definitely 100%.

Because I think we often don't think to, Yeah. To think about our own nourishment in that way. Exactly. You know what I mean? I mean, going through everything in my 40s, the good thing that came out of it was that I knew what made me feel good, mentally and emotionally and like physically even.

Yeah, and I think you might have said it in your Vogue article about how important it felt to recognize yourself, looking back at yourself, you know, in the mirror. Yeah. As giving a, providing a touchstone to keeping a sense of who you are and your identity and feeling good. Feeling good. And that was a really big thing for me this time

was about my identity really, which obviously is really difficult when you're leaving a massive job after 20 years. It's, you know, it is very much about keeping your identity. That's really important to me. And that's what I have done. In fact, I'm even more, I'm over the other side now. where I do feel like I, yeah, I really know myself

and I know what makes me feel good and I know my values and, you know, I'm very aligned with everything that I'm doing in my life, which feels really odd, but I'm just... It feels great, and I suppose... It is good. It sounds like a very different way to enter your 50s from your 40s, for example,

just to kind of have that sense of like... like preparing and thinking about yourself in that way. Yeah, exactly. So I feel like it's not really... You know, when you're, what's the word, when you're changing who you are? Like, reinvention. It's not really a reinvention for me. It's more like, this is me, I'm going to go for it, like, a full speed.

Yeah. If you know what to mean. But I definitely think that, you know, I make sure that I really look after myself. However, saying that it has been really difficult to find the support that I need and it is very difficult to yeah sort of find the support in terms of people

to help me look after Wolfgang in Stroud even though my mum is there and whenever I need her she's there which is incredible but like on a day to day basis I find it quite difficult because I'm travelling to London

I'm commuting a lot with him I'm commuting all the time with him and going to meetings. He's coming to meetings with me. You know, I have a lot of events and he's in the next room. So he's still really little. He's, you know, nine and half months. And also when I was in Lanzarotti, I was like, actually, I think I'm going to spend this time with him until he's won, trying to be with him even more than I have been, even though I've been with him all the time. But I just felt like I just want to see him grow a bit more now. And, um,

and then work out the plan. Yeah, and it's so precious, and you know how the days slip by, don't they really? Yeah, exactly. Before you know it, you blink, and they start, like, running about and jacking and all that. Exactly, exactly. And so for anyone listening that's thinking about embarking on something similar,

what do you think would be a really helpful thing for them to know that you've learned along the way? I just feel like I just want everybody to have the courage. it can feel so scary but once you feel like you've got the courage, more courage, you get more and more confident the more and more steps you take. And I just feel like it's,

if you feel like you want to do it, do it, no matter how old you are, you will always give that child the most love. It's just, you know, I've said this in all my features, that he was so, so wanted. And I think that shows now, you know. And I just, so I just feel like take each day as it comes,

take each step as it comes. But you will gain that confidence and that courage the more you get into it. But just do it, yeah. It's hard to have anything other to add to that because it's just so sweet. I'm so nice to have this conversation with him actually being, in the room. I'm really glad he's here. I know he's snoozing, but he's listening to all as well.

I think being a wanted baby is the best kind of baby to be. Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Oh, thank you so much, Lisa. Oh, thanks, Sophie. Thank you. That's such a nice chat. It is. It's so sweet. It feels so wholesome. Oh, thank you so much, Lisa. Thank you for sharing your gorgeous story and for your generosity and wanting to spread the way. for other women in your situation. I think that's definitely going to reach people and make people want to take the plunge. I mean, you've shown so much strength

and obviously everybody will be fortunate enough to come home with the baby. But I do think it might encourage people to explore more of the what might be now that you've shared what can happen. and the positivity of the outcome, not just having a baby, but how it's given you confidence and yourself and your abilities and your strength, all really valid stuff.

I'm now speaking at a normal volume, unlike the beginning of the podcast, because I'm back in London town. It's Sunday. It's Father's Day. And, yeah, I'm walking to grab a couple of bits because Rich's folks are coming up today. we're going to cook them a feast and it's a very hot day in London town bloody hell it's already scorching

thank you so much to Lisa for talking to me this week thank you to Claire Jones for not only production actually but also shout out for your babysitting skills as well she's very good at keeping that little Baba Wolfgang happy crawling around while Lisa and I chatted thank you to LMA for the artwork to Richard for

doing the editing. Thank you darling. Happy Father's Day. And thank you to you for lending me your ears. Whatever you're up to, take care. If you're in the UK, be extra safe this week. It's going to be incredibly hot. I think it's going to get up to like 38, 39 degrees. So look after yourselves. I am here there and everywhere this week. What have I got on? I've got a gig in the south of France, two festivals in the Netherlands, something at the school. And then something. Something. Something a private party on Saturday night in the UK and then on Sunday I rest, a day of rest

for the Ellis Bixer Jones household so whatever you're up to lots of love and I'll see you next week with another glorious care take care.