Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 190: Martha Keith

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

Martha Keith has run her stationery business ‘Martha Brook’ for over a decade, and started the Business Secrets Club two years ago, to help small business owners with things she wishes she’d known when she started out. Martha told me about her 10 year fertility journey and her two IVF daughters aged 8 and 3.We also talked about how she’d had a late diagnosis of endometriosis, a very difficult birth with her first daughter and how she’d lost her beloved Dad Philip just before she became pregnant for the second time. I really valued Martha sharing all those things, and her takeaway advice for listeners is so valuable: 1. never assume what you see on social media is real 2. ask for help if you need it and 3. don’t neglect your health. If you’re in pain that’s a sign that something is wrong.Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sophia L'Ela Spexter and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it all work. I'm a singer and I've released eight albums in between having my five sons, age between seven years old and nearly 22. So I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a little bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spilling Plates. Hey, it's me. And look, it's you.

And we're here together. How you doing? I am actually right, you know. It's been a nice week since I spoke to you. I'm trying to think what I've been up to. I went over to Limerick, very beautiful part of Ireland, and did a support gig for Shania Twain, which is really cool. because everybody was so excited and it felt like the whole of limerick was taken over with

well mainly women walking around town in cowboy boots and leopard print and cowboy hats or up for a good night with shenaya which happened she was great and it's lovely to play a stadium full of such a welcoming crowd so if you were one of them thanks it was wicked and um yeah i've been i'm only away for two nights this week so that feels not too not too chaotic. One of them is tomorrow night. I'm speaking to you from Thursday. Tomorrow I'm off to Vienna for a gig.

It looks incredible, actually. It's a festival that's in a kind of castle grounds. I'm really enjoying doing more of these European festivals. It's why I always was hoping for. And it's just really glorious to be traveling around. And, yeah, seeing what festivals are like in other parts of the world. So for this summer, I've been in, or if I've been Budapest, I've been the Netherlands, I've got Spain next week, France in a couple of weeks,

Galway in a few weeks, nice places. And tomorrow, yeah, Vienna, where the headline act is, maybe. So maybe I get a chance to say hi to him. I haven't seen him properly since. Oh, golly, it's probably about 20 years. We did a song for my first album together called Is It Any Wonder, which I really enjoyed writing, actually, written in very snowy New York. So a very happy little bit of memory that I know.

and yes this is actually the final episode of this series which is making me think because next series will take me up to episode 200 bloody hell how glorious is that where are we now six and a half years down the line and what a lovely conversation i've had for the end of this series with a lovely woman called martha keith who you might know under one of either two or both guys is you might know her because she has a stationary brittance business called Martha Brooke, which she's had for over a decade. And two years ago, she started something on Instagram called the Business Secrets Club, which is where she gives really valuable advice and nuggets of wisdom from her decade long time running her business and how to

help small businesses do what they do. So it ranges from practical business advice to social media advice, just really smart thinking. And what I love is it's a wonderful example of the generosity that can come when you're feeling secure with the world you've created and what you're doing with your own business. So I think all power to Martha with what she's doing there. I love her spirit. And I love how successful it's been. She's got loads of followers for both accounts, both doing really well. And so I approached her first because I thought, oh, you know, I always love talking to entrepreneurs. I like how she runs her business. I like how she was opening up what she'd learned to other people. But then once we got in touch and started chatting

about doing the pod, she said, oh, I had both my daughters through IVF. I'd be really happy to talk about that. So she's got daughters aged eight and three. And that's part of a 10-year fertility journey. And from that, our conversation just absolutely blossoms. There's a very good example of what can happen in the podcast sometimes where I'll sit down with my guest and we'll think, okay, we're probably going to talk about business and entrepreneurialism and yes, journey to motherhood and IVF and fertility. But then through that we spoke also about endometriosis and about the very difficult birth she'd had with her first daughter and about how her relationship with her dad and how losing him just before she had a second daughter affected her. So the conversation has absolutely blossomed in all different areas.

and it was a very rich, open conversation. And I'm really, really grateful to Martha for sharing it because I think it will help so many people who've gone through, I don't know, any aspect of this, whether you're someone setting up a business, whether you're somebody who's struggled with fertility, whether you've been through IVF, whether you've lost a loved one,

whether you've had a difficult birth, endometriosis, all these incredibly life-affecting situations and things we can go through. but Martha's been someone that's not only gone through them all, but is feeling able to discuss them and to share what she's learned and how it's perfected her with other people. So I suppose it's a really good indication of the same way she approached, you know, from her business to wanting to share her business secrets

to her life experience. I wanted to share that with other people and help people too. So all in all, a generous woman. And yeah, just be a little bit mourned, because those are sensitive, vulnerable topics. So if there's something you've experienced, then, you know, just let me know. Not let me know.

I want you to know is what I meant to say, that I'm there. And this is a conversation that might touch on some of those points. But actually, I always think there's so much value from the sharing. So I hope you feel safe within the walls of this podcast. You are coming from me. You are. All right. I will see you on the other side. Thank you to Martha and I'll see you in a minute. Well, hello, this is the furthest, the least far your podcast guest has to ever travel.

I know. How crazy is that? You're about four, like four rows away from you. Four roads away. And yet we haven't, we've met briefly. We've seen each other. Seen each other. And I know we followed each other on Instagram and I think I saw you last year at a circus. Like I feel up, I never really know whether to say hi because it must be really annoying people kind of. Oh, not always so high. I like it. Always happy to chat. And actually, Yes, I've been very happily following your business, which is ever evolving, actually, and growing. So even since I've lost, bumped into you, I think you've now launched extra aspects. Yeah.

So where would you like to start? Why don't we start with your working world? Yeah. And what's going on in that. Oh, my gosh. What a big, what a big workplace to start. So I run a stationary business, Martha Brooke, which is, I guess, the main thing that I do and the thing that takes up a lot of my time, which is my first baby is absolutely bucketing it down outside, by the way.

If listeners are soothed by the sound of the rainforest. It's West London. I turned up in Sophie's house looking like a sort of drowned wrap. You really didn't actually. But now I think we'd both be challenged by this weather. Yeah, yeah. It's rather, it's rather weird. I did have to take my shoes off the fear of.

It's cozy, though, isn't it? Walking rainwater over Sophie's got nice carpet. So that's, I've been doing for nearly a decade. I quit my corporate life. my proper job, much of the horror of my parents. And then I, a couple of years ago, decided to start a second business called Business Secrets Club, which is essentially helping small business owners with all the things that I wish I'd known at the start, which is a lot. And then I do various other things in the small business space, sort of helping startups and things like that.

So good. Yeah, lots of different things. And it's good. So at the moment in my stationery business, we are, gearing up for our busiest time of the year, which is making our stationary advent calendar, which is our biggest product, and she takes a huge amount of works.

We manufacture it here in the UK. And we're also behind the scenes building a new website, which is really exciting. And then I am, yeah, just business secrets club is just so busy. I mean, it's really exploded. I really could never have imagined what's happened with it, and it's created lots of other things,

lots of opportunities. So I do a lot of different things. For example, I'm a government, small business council, and do various things like that. So probably like yourself, dragged in lots of different directions, but in a good way.

I like being busy. Yeah, and I suppose hearing you talk about it, I'm imagining that you've put so much into your stationary company and got it to a place where you feel you are able to, as you say, share the wealth of knowledge and what you've learned. But in doing that, I imagine it also keeps your mind sharp to what your business needs of you. Yeah, the weirdest thing is that when you learn a lot

by teaching. So I have, I think, got, become a better business owner by helping other business owners. Because when you start saying to people, actually, do you realize that's the thing? You go, oh, am I doing that? You know, it makes you self-reflect. So it kind of started in a strange way, which I can tell you that story if you're interested. But it's, so I was going through a very, very long fertility battle to make my children, which we can touch on. But I also, at the same time my dad was very unwell and I hit a milestone birthday, uh, which was 40 around the same year that he, within a year of him passing away. And I had this kind of real moment of, oh my gosh, life is so short. And I really remember my dad turning forward. I remember I was 10 and I remember

hanging out the window and my parents were having a party and all the lovely noise drifting up to the windows. And I remember. I remember. just thinking, oh, he was, you know, so old. And he gets 40, you're like, my gosh, this really isn't old. And he also, weirdly ran a business, and he very much had the mindset of, I'm going to retire and do all these things I've planned to do. And he never got to do all those things.

He wanted to buy a boat and live by the sea. And I had this really, like, wake up call of, oh, my gosh, you just have to do the things now. And I decided I'd start out to do this little bucket list for myself of 40,000. things before I turn 40 and all sorts of random things I've added to the list. I've tried to do as many things as possible, you know, really try and live life. And one of them at the end of the list was do something to help other people. And from that, I started an Instagram account in secret

because I kind of thought people will think this is really silly. And for about six months, I didn't really tell anybody. I'd just post this stuff in secret. And then it sort of blew up. And then we are where we are, which is really amazing. It's turned into, I never, there was never a big plan with it, but it's turned into this amazing community, you know, 150,000 business owners in a couple of years, people saying that the advice has really been transformational to them. And it's led to so many wonderful things. It's been, it's been the best thing I could have, I could have done. And I think it's helped me find my purpose again after really struggling through many years of, of being in hospitals with my dad and also with the fertility staff,

of just feeling like I kind of lost, like lost myself. And there's something wonderful about doing something which is externally focused on other people that just sort of helps you, you know, find who you are and your sense of worth again. And that has been really something just completed didn't expect. I think that's really glorious

and I'm really glad you took me into that space because actually there's nothing waffly about that. Yeah. In fact, what I think is really magical, and I don't know if maybe putting something together that isn't quite reflective of how you feel, but you know, you spent all that time building this business. Presumably, if you've gone from this position in the corporate world

before you took the leap into your own business, that first bit when you're on your own with the business must feel really isolating and a bit of a confidence trick of, oh my God, am I really doing this? Yeah. What am I thinking? I think a lot of people feel like that. But also running simultaneously are all these real life events.

You know, what's happening with your dad's health, your, you know, fertility journey, you know, with your partner, all these things. But now that you're at a point where you can say to other business owners, they're all entwined actually. There's a lot that feeds back, it all comes from you. You have to still be steering the ship. and all these truths can be running simultaneously. You don't have to box and cox it too much more than it's protective for you, I guess, and what you need. And I think it's so sure.

I think a lot of people do, you know, you start out and there's just so much you don't know. It's crazy. And I definitely, I mean, I was a director of a company by the time I was 29. I was really like set on this like corporate path. And this is in the healthcare. Yeah, healthcare world.

I never really talk about it because there's actually a pharmaceutical company called Glatso Smith-Kline. which you may have heard of. I never really talk about that. I think people might be a bit funny about it. But I started there as a graduate and I was on this kind of

this path where they gave you increasingly senior roles. And it was a great company. I love the people that. I love the people there. I really missed the people there. I missed them terribly when I left. But the more senior I got, the less I felt that I was making a difference.

And I was always told when I was younger that I could never make a career out of being creative. I had to follow a certain point. path. I had to get a certain job. I had to go to a certain university. And then I got to a point when, again, it was the milestone birthday. This case, it was turning 30 where I was just like, what is the point? I don't, am I actually happy? Is this, can I actually imagine doing this for the rest of my life? And at that point, I thought, I'm young. I can always come back. Let me try something different. And I really, again, didn't have a master plan. I walked in one day with my

resignation letter in my hand and handed it over to my boss, who was a vice. president and he just looked at me like I was completely crazy and I said oh I'm going to go to stop the station room business in my bedroom but then you do then you do then suddenly you the next week well actually it was three months later because I had to play like play out my notice you suddenly this desperately lonely feeling of oh my gosh I actually don't know what I'm doing I'm in my house by myself and it's great but you know you've got nobody and I found a lot of people locally through through Twitter back in the day and social media and but there was no education on social media

and I think that's what's really fundamentally changed now is that you can actually get a lot of brilliant resources and that was the idea behind starting Business Secrets Club was that if you've got an idea in a phone you can learn something straight away and it will really help you yeah because because yeah I've learned so much in 13 years now running a statery business that I feel like it's a font of just useless knowledge that's in my head

but for other people it's really really helpful things that I just didn't know at the start. And you're learning all the time, things that you've done well and things that also just didn't go well that can be enormously helpful to other people and it's actually a real joy sharing that. Definitely.

And as you say, that generosity of sharing the wisdom just leads to this community. Oh, it's been brilliant. The community's been the best thing. I think that's the amazing thing about social media is that you can find other people that are in the same situation as you

and actually find genuine community, genuine support, and let's alone with whatever situation. you're in and I think that's brilliant. And also other people's stories and without sounding to try it, I think if you've been through a lot and I'm so sorry with what's happened with your dad's sound so lovely and I'm sorry he had such a protracted and cruel, you know, what happened with him and also fertility. But then all these other business owners, maybe they've got their stories that they're bringing

out as well. So there's a sort of a healing process as well that can happen with what brings people then to these. Yeah, I never, ever, when I was going through all the fertility stuff, knew anyone else that was going through it. And I think now it's different. And actually it was Emma, Emma from, you know, you used to post, Women's Hour podcast, actually sharing her own experience of endometriosis. Emma Barnett. She's done a documentary recently about it. And she wrote an article, I think it was in one of the newspapers about endometriosis a few years ago. And it was her ex bearing her own experience of IVF and that really made me feel, less alone and actually have the courage to talk about it myself. So I never talked about it before. And I think it's a case for a lot of women going through fertility. It feels like a real, you know, it's almost like embarrassing that, or you feel kind of

scared to talk about it or like you're sort of broken in some way. And I think that has changed, that has really changed now. But certainly when I, it was a 10-year journey for me, when I first, you know, when I first started realizing that this was not going to come easy to us, I really didn't know anybody at all that was in that situation. And it was, that as well was enormously isolating. But I think now, you know, I still get people all the time in my DM saying, oh gosh, you know, we're going for another round.

You know, I just wanted to let you know. In my stationery business, Martha Brooke, we've made an IVF journal, which I know a lot of people use. And it's lovely hearing people's stories. And I think we all need somebody that we know who's been through it because it is really, really difficult thing. Yeah. And, you know, for me it was seven rounds of IVF, which is a lot.

Sometimes I look back and think, how did I do that? Yeah, pick yourself up and go back into it. It's the, yeah, it's emotionally and physically just so, so draining. And there were four pregnancy losses as well. And I had two hystereoscopies and a laparoscopy. And, you know, it was just constantly, being in the hospital as well, like constantly being in hospital. But we got there in the end. And I think it was things like hope that really got me through and thinking, actually,

this could be, this could be the one. And hearing other people's stories, I think is really helpful, which is why I now I'm not afraid to talk about it, because I think it does, it is important for other people to hear that it's worth sticking out. Yeah. And I guess, I mean, wow, yeah, seven. is a lot. Yeah. And I think when people are going through their own fertility, I suppose you do get really careful with who you're talking to about it as well because everybody else has got their own things going on.

And people are worried about saying the wrong things. Maybe they haven't experienced it firsthand. And I'm trying to, chronology this. So this was all happening sort of simultaneous, I guess, with starting your business. and finding out about endometriosis and your first round of IVF around the same time. Yeah, so I started a business in 2013. Me and my husband got married in 2011.

And I'm from a big family. I've got four. I'm one of four sisters. My husband's from a big family. He grew up in a house with five boys. I always just imagined. Yeah, I just imagined like your family. So neat of you both.

I kind of imagine. Well, he's got this theory that you end up being attracted to people who have the same. family situation. If you are from an all-boy-girls family, you put boys in a pedestal. And if you're from an all-boys family, you put girls on a pedestal. And if you, like, have one brother or one sister, you tend to marry people of... But he's got this theory. And I swear, we've gone through everyone we know and actually checks out for like so many relationships we know. It's quite a weird theory. Anyway, so we got married to 2011 and I was like, yeah, we're going to have children. It's going to be fine. You know, on a honeymoon, we just like, you know, stopped even, you know,

using protection or whatever. And then it got to like, I'm going to say 20-14. where nothing was happening. And I have always had the worst periods, like the worst. And I just thought that was normal. Like horrendous, like I would say I'd have days of school, I had days of work. Like every month, it was like a real thing that just dominated my life. And really excruciating, like pain up my legs, up my back. Like it would make me horizontal every month.

And I always had real problems with my bowel as well. And I just kind of thought that was my mind. my body and that was just me. And it wasn't until 20, I would say 2014, 2015 when, you know, we've been trying to get pregnant and nothing was happening. And I thought this is a bit weird. And I ended up getting referred to this guy, a consultant who, I'm not joking. He knows, I think he's one of the people that knows me the most. I've seen this, I saw him for over 10 years and he is the loveliest man. And he was the first person that mentioned the word endometriosis to me. And I genuinely had never, ever heard of this thing in my whole life. And at the time, because my husband was still

working for the old company we worked for, we had private healthcare. We don't now, but we had private healthcare. And we paid, because the NHS waiting list was like years, to have a hystoroscopy and a laparoscopy, which is where they go in through your tummy. So the laparoscopy is. And basically, I was riddled, like riddled with this. stuff and people kind of think it's like a condition of the wound but it's it's not is the fact that the womb tissue grows elsewhere in your body and then forms scars which means that your organs all start sticking together so like I had bits of my bowel like chunk together like bits of my abdomen were like and like one of my ovaries was completely surrounded with scot like it was like it was horrendous

and so what they do in that operation is they then try and like burn a lot of the scar tissue off and they also with the hystroscope was where they kind of kind of go up your bum, go up your vagina. They do all the stuff around there. So he was like, look, you were riddled with this stuff. We've taken it all out. We're going to give you a year now. And this is the time where you'll get pregnant if you do.

And I didn't get pregnant. And he said to me, a year later, it's very unlikely you'll ever conceive naturally, that you probably will never conceive naturally. And I just remember hearing those words. And it was about, I would say it was about 2016. And I can't tell you how much that flawed me. I just had always imagined. I spent my whole life trying not to get pregnant.

Of course. I was a very Catholic family. I was like no sex before marriage. And then then to find out that actually I couldn't get pregnant. And I remember my sister, it was around, it was pretty much the same week that my sister told me she was pregnant. And she was like, it was really hard. We've been trying for ages. She got married like six months before.

She'd been trying for six months. And I just remember thinking, oh my God, this is just, this is not what I imagine would happen. And so that was when we started on the path of IVF. and my first daughter was actually only a one round of IVF baby, but I thought it was very difficult to get there because I'd had all these different procedures and stuff to run up to that. And unfortunately with her, I had a very difficult birth where,

oh gosh, that's a story in itself. That's a story in itself. A very difficult birth where I, because I was so focused on getting pregnant that I had not anticipated the bit after the birth and like long story short they left a lot for centaur in and they're like cut me open and didn't sew me up and I got I was it was really awful so the recovery from that was awful and then I ended up we had some in the free

some embryos in the free so I'll go back and put one in it'll be fine again and then that wasn't what happened and it was then could that continue rounds of IVF while my dad was also unwell and getting increasing unwell. He was diagnosed about the same time that I had my first daughter with a, no, a bit earlier than that, with a very rare muscle wasting condition. And he, I imagine my dad was like a mixture between like Clark Kent from Superman,

who's very tall, six foot three rugby player and Ned Flanders from The Simpsons. Moustache glasses like Catholic. But he was like my hero in life. He was like the man I looked up to. And he went in a very short space of times using a walking stick and then a wheelchair and being very, very unwell. And so, I mean, the lot, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, there's a few years where he was permanently in and out of hospital from having fools

and, and things going wrong. And I was just in hospital permanently having rounds of IVF or losing pregnancies. And, um, and during that time, that was a really critical. part of growing Martha Brooke because we were going through our first round of crowd fund investment and we decided to go around down the crowdfunding route and I remember I'd be like I'd go and have an embryo put in and I'd come back and be on Instagram stories being like oh hey we're about to close this crowdfunding around or I'll be like injecting myself like walking in to go and talk to investors and I look back and I'm like how do how did I even do how did I do that and I think I was just

put in this front the whole time that you know behind the scenes I would then really struggle and and be very emotional about the whole thing. My dad was told in February of 2022 that he could no longer eat. It's a bit by bit his body had kind of given up on him. So it was tube feeding. It was awful seeing this man that was like your absolute hero, your person you looked up to most in the world,

you know, being really a shell of him, his former self. and I had that same week just got found out I was pregnant. And so I said to my mom, I can't come and see him because I'm finding the trauma of it. Like, I keep losing these babies. And I kept thinking it was my fault that I was losing the babies. And I remember she was so angry at me. And then I ended up losing this pregnancy. And I thought it was the stress of it all.

And the same time, that day, I went in to have, have, you know the pregnancy taken out of me and I remember my mum and me having this a really big argument on the phone and I think

because the whole of my family were like this heightened state of like anticipatory grief and stress and I remember the I remember for months I beat myself up saying

it was my fault I was too stressed I lost and then I found out they tested the pregnancy after it was taken out of me that had an extra chromosome

and I think I had beaten myself up that it was my fault but it clearly wasn't. Anyway, and then I decided I was going to do one more round. That was it. I couldn't do any more. And it was October half term in 2020.

And I was going to go to the Cotswolds for a week to, we'd hired this B&B, you'd like to try and get away. But it happened to coincide with the IVF. So I was coming back on the train to London to go to the fertility clinic near here. And then my dad got admitted to hospital with pneumonia. and I know from having worked in healthcare for a long time that that was not good. So I went and sat with him in the hospital

and he was slightly delirious and he was like, oh, you know, doing this round of IVF. And then I went back to the Cotswolds and my mum phoned me and she said, his lung has collapsed and I was like, oh, this is not good. And I said, I don't think I can be there with him when he dies. I just, I've always got this fear of seeing somebody die.

I just don't think that's something I can do. and I phone my friend who's a medic and she said Martha look I think you should do it I think it's important you'll dare I'm going to get upset talking about it and I remember it was 10pm and I thought I'll get up the next morning and drive there and then I thought I got into bed and I thought I can't I need to drive now

and I left where we were staying and it was pitch black and I'm not a driver like my husband does all the driving I was like trying to drive down country roads with like the car sat laf which was so shit And I was like driving down these dark like country roads It took me such a weird route I didn't get to this hospital until about 1.30 in the morning And all of my sisters were there, my mum was there

And my dad like rallied He'd had one claps long, he was tied up to these machines And he sort of sat up in this bed And he looked around all of us And he tried to be the father, the man of the house And he did this speech which I'll never forget He was like, I'm so glad you're all here It's really important to me, I love you all

It was this like, like, Like everyone was like crying. It was like this speech. It's like a good by speech. And I think I stayed there to like quite late in the early hours of the morning. And then I went back to my sisters for a couple of hours. And then the message from the hospital saying you have to come now. And I think his second lung had collapsed.

And yeah, he passed away early hours of the next day. And it was awful. And then I got a message from the hospital the same day saying we're going to put your embryo in in like two days time. So I had the last embryo put in and that was the one that made my daughter. And she, she's, I always feel like part of him is in her, which sounds really weird. So his, one of her middle names is his name or a female version of his name. And I, I, I don't know, I feel like it was sort of meant to be in the end. And I feel like she, she, she, I always feel like all those rounds of her and all those pregnancies.

I lost were kind of worth it because she's just her. You know, she's just her. And I would never have her if all of those things hadn't happened. And I kind of feel like some, in some ways, he's with me, if that makes sense. So I'm going to talk about it. But yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot. And then I felt after she was born that I just had this urge of, I have to do stuff with my life. And no same person with a baby decides to start a second business, no sane person in the world. decides to do this. But yeah, that's when the second business started was when she was six months old. But I'm glad I did it because it has helped me find purpose again when I really did feel like a broken person after all of that. And it's brought so much joy and not, you know,

and I think it's helped a lot of people as well, which has been brilliant. But yeah, I do miss my dad. I sometimes wish I could tell him and say, God, dad, guess what I'm doing? And he was such a great, a great person to talk to. And his big thing, which I'm sure you're related to, was music. Like, he loved music. That was our thing. That was what we, that was how we connected was he took me to gigs. We sent each other music.

He loved music. That was, that was his big thing. When I was 18, he bought me 18 records that he'd love when he was 18. Oh, that's very cool. He was a real, like, he was a real, he wanted you to share it. He wanted to share it. He loved it. So, I'm so sorry that you've been through so much.

No, it's a lot. It's a lot, but... Well, thank you for talking about it, but my word, I felt we just need to have sort of... No, sorry. A five-minute hug now. I got to you. If the podcast goes quiet for five minutes,

I was just sitting here holding your hands. Yeah. While this is all happening, how many people were aware of all these things? What was your support network like? I really did not have a support network. After my... I really didn't.

And that's what I've really, really learned. And actually I know you had a previous guest, Steph from Don't Buy Her Flowers. And I remember, I had my first, I've had my first daughter, who's now eight and a half. She's, she's, she's, she's, she's, she's cracking. And she, I was, that was very much the era of, like, do you remember like, mum influences? Like, and it was like the era of you can have a mom, you can be a mom and like, you can do it all. And I remember seeing, like, a picture of a mum influence. I still remember this picture.

Like, she had like a baby on her lap at, like, a, a, like, a, a, you can be a mom. baby she'd given birth four weeks ago she's like back to work and i was like okay well that's what i need to do and i had with my first daughter this awful birth where um oh you know i had really quite bad medical issues after she was born by i just kind of tried to work through it well also you don't have anything to no i had nothing to compare it to i kind of thought as a business owner that's what i needed to do and um i did not look after myself at all and i i i don't know about you that when you have your first baby, it's like your whole life changes and I had not anticipated that. And also it had a huge impact on my relationship with my husband who, bless him, I was really

struggling. I was really struggling to just give a little bit more context. I, this is so awful. This is maybe a trigger warning. But they, to get her out, it was New Year's Eve. They pan it because her heart rate was really dropping. And they did a double apisotomy, which is not a thing. Like anyone medical listening to this will say, tell her that's not a thing. They meant to cut you open at 5 o'clock,

and they cut me at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock. Oh, my gosh. They basically didn't show me back together properly. I know it's really awful. Well, no, I'm just thinking. I mean, I think also it's just, I don't understand how these things can still be happening. I know, honestly.

They actually had an inquiry in the hospital after this and I had to go and give evidence because they also left a lend to centre in. It was horrendous. Oh, no, you can die from that. No, I know. So I went 10 days up, this is honestly in hindsight,

like, actually, I did not do this to my second child. 10 days after I gave birth, I went and presented at a blogger's brunch that Martha Brooke were hosting, right, with bloggers, right? Sorry, did you just say 10 days? 10 days, right?

Okay. Yeah. And then three weeks later, I was in the office, and I came home. I just wanted to see the team. I was not like working, working. I came home and suddenly I felt these cramps in my stomach.

I rushed to the loo and I gave, it looked like I'd just given birth to a small baby in the toilet. And I started like hemorrhaging like bits of tissue out of me. Went to hospital and they're like, oh, you've got a load of placenta left in you. And I was like, okay, great. So I was admitted to hospital and had to have a gemina anesthetic to get the placenta removed.

And I was in agony with like down. below and my mum had always told me as a joke oh you know I have to give birth you have to sit in rubber rings I thought oh maybe this is normal me sitting on my rubber ring and it got to like two three months after birth and I can't even tell you how much pain I was in and I've been to the GP and they just like oh you're fine pull yourself together sort of thing yeah honestly I had this GP who I feel you just been let down over and over again no no I know and I had a friend who's like please go and see this consultant and I and I went to see this consultant and she looked at me and she's like, okay, you've not been

what happened. I'm so cross with myself. I wish I'd looked at it with a mirror. Is that they cut through my lab ear and not sowing them back together again. And I, she was like, we're going to need to do some reconstructive surgery in you. So I had another operation

at three months. Anyway, really long story sure. Martha, this is too much. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. This is too much the podcast. No, it's not that. It's more that I just, I I suppose, I'm starting to feel quite angry on your behalf. I, I mean, even,

even winding back to just only hearing about endometriosis. No. Why do we not talk to young girls? Well, this is why I want to talk about all their stuff. Menstruating to check what their cycles are like, to check their pain levels. It's not normal. Why is it not being investigated?

And when, you know, when I spoke to Emma Barnett about endometriosis, it made me think of those girls at school where their period were all around and they were flawed. And they'd always be in the nurses' rooms. That was me. lying down and they'd be grey in the face. Why are we not more, why are we not more accountable to make, these are young, these are, you know, children, not even understanding what their bodies should and shouldn't be feeling like.

If it was boys who are there in the hospital room, like in their nurse's room once a month, people would be like, right, we need to something about it. Well, we do still have the largest gender health gap in the whole of Europe and it comes to, you know, funding for female health and men's health. It actually makes me really, really angry. But then when you're, when you're running a business and you've got your two, now two little girls, there isn't always space in your life to fight those battles and to take that on?

No, but I think I, so I, I, I, I happened after my first daughter's, I ended up getting PTSD, which I didn't realize, you know, I didn't, it wasn't diagnosed until, you know, a little while later and I think that working the trying to do everything did not help trying to just be you know do all the things and and carry on working through all this stuff and that transition to having a a child and that changed the relationship with my husband of course me actually really struggling and you know being tearful a lot of the time and angry a lot of the time which I hadn't realized was as a consequence of the fallout of this birth and not and I was still in a huge amount of pain and then me asking him to help with childcare and that was a real transition for us

that period of like finding how we parent together yeah and he um so for a bit of context he he um left he took us a basketball from his job we've actually met in our old company whereas hilariously he interviewed me for a job That's how you met. Yeah, that's how we met, which I got. And we ended up working in this team together, but he ended up not being my boss. But we worked in a team together. And my first experience with him was working together.

And so we worked together. And when I, it got to a point, because we had Martha Brooke in the house for many, many years. And I'd have people coming into the house, like employees coming into the house. That's hilarious occasion where Chris would accidentally eat people who worked for us, his lunch because it was in the fridge in the kitchen or like, or like we'd come home and there'd be like boxes piled in the bath or in our city room. And he would come home from work and he would help me because I'd be like, I can't do all these orders by myself.

Overwhelming. Overwhelming. And he got to a point where he was like, okay, we need to get this out of the house now. This is getting silly. And so he took a sabbatical from his job to help me move the business into our first premises. And he ended up never going back to work and becoming Martha Brooks head of operations. And so in my mind, we were running this business together. and then we were going to have a baby together,

so we would do it 50-50. But all of his friends, their man is like the main breadwinner or certainly, you know, is the person that probably doesn't do the childcare in the house, in the household, certainly for a lot of his example or, you know, his representative relationships.

And I think for him, it was this real adjustment of, I want you to have, you know, to do 50-50 parenting with me. That was really, really, really, really a just, really a big thing. He found that really hard. And I, at the time, obviously, was really like struggling with my mental health, having had this awful birth. And I remember it, we would get to the end of like,

I was working three, I think I went back to work three days. And I was looking after my daughter. And then we'd get to the weekend and I was completely shot. And he would come to me and he said, he'd be like, I've done four hours and 20. 26 minutes of parenting today. And I was like, sorry, what? You're timing.

Your timing this. And we would have arguments about it. And I just felt like I was going insane. I was like, I just, for me, it was normal to look after your child. And we would have, we, we would, our relationship was just, we would shout at each other. We'd get angry at each other. Like he would get so frustrated by it. And he went to, there's a real telling,

point where he went to, I think he went and had a drink with a friend and he was like, oh, it's awful. I have to look after my child. And his friend said to him, Chris, you need to put yourself together. Like, I missed a lot of my child's parenting because I had to work. And you have a choice. Like, you get to spend that time with your daughter. And that's amazing. Like, how lucky are you and think of the, what, and he's like, I think it's affected my relationship with my children for not being there. and you've got an opportunity to have something different. And it was like this eye-opening moment for my husband. And I'm so glad he had that conversation.

And I do think for all the things I do now, like he's brilliant. Like, honestly, he's amazing. I don't think I do all the things that I could do without him. So we don't have child care help, but it is the two of us. And he is brilliant. But it took a while to get it took a world. Yeah. And I think also, look, relationships have to evolve like seasons, right?

And I think there's nothing that can shift your relationship into a new chapter like a new baby or actually like any of the things you've been dealing with. Never mind actually the new baby. You know, the trauma of your dad's diagnosis, starting a new business, finding out about your endometriosis, your struggles of fertility. These are all things that really tested everything. And I kind of forget that probably had a big impact on him as well. You know, seeing all of watching all of that and seeing your wife going through all that. Absolutely. It's a lot. And it sounds like the two of you really have been able to shape where your relationship is now because of having those bits where you've gone like, this isn't really working or this is dysfunctional. And you have to be able to have those difficult conversations sometimes. Otherwise, you get stuck in a relationship that doesn't really reflect how you hoped things would be running. And now if you say now, you know, the two of you together, I mean, not having any childcare with young children. children and running the business is loads, I would say.

It's so hard. I would, I, I honestly don't think you can do everything. And I don't know if you heard this. Have you had this really, this is really stupid theory that I think I heard once on some man podcasts and it really made me rationally angry. Oh, I know that feeling. If you had the four burners theory, if you heard this. No, go on.

Am I going to get angry? No, it will make you angry, but then actually I flipped it on its head to actually help me. Okay. So you've got like a four gas stoes burning. This will make you're angry. Family, friends, health and work. And you can't do all four. So to be successful, you have to turn one off.

To be really successful, you have to turn two off, right? This made me irrationally angry. Because I can imagine a man be like, yeah, I can, you know, I don't need, turn off my family, turn off friends. And I can just do my work and health and bro, yeah. You know, get up at 4 a.m. do it. Anyway, but then I kind of thought, actually, this is. a point of the fact you actually can't do all these things you can't and what that misses of course is that there's a fifth one which is home household and that takes up so much of my time you know the

yeah the admin oh my god laundry yeah dishwashers relentless a lot of it like it never stops and i think if you look at any woman who looks like they're bossing it like one of those stoves has to be turned down a bit like it's impossible to do all five of those things but literally I'm like, but you can have all four car gas. But, but, but. You can have four saucepins on at the same time. Yeah, you can, but, yeah, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. I'm like, surely it's designed to work all at once, otherwise just make it with three hubs.

But maybe this is if you've got, but yes, but you're not, but you have limited gas as a human, right? Okay, sorry. Yeah. So, so go with it. So in my head, I kind of think, I do, you do have limited gap. Because this is where I think I fell over with my first child was that I thought I could do all the things all the time. Yes. And I, you can't.

do all the things all the time. And I think it's really misleading for anybody to look at anybody else who has, it looks like, you know, they're doing lots of these projects and work and children and think that every single one of those five stones is perfectly burning. So I don't think they are. And for me, and I think I have learned to be really realistic that I have to do things in seasons and compartmentalize because I can't work and look after a toddler at the same time. It's the sure far way to insanity. Like I have to, she can get to nursery for a bit. I can do my work for a bit.

And then I can be my full attention on her. And that for me is so much better. I say we don't have childcare. I mean, we don't have a nanny. But yes, we have nursery and yes, we have after-school club. But it's much better for me to do things, you know, not trying to do everything at once. I think that's what I really struggled with for the first trials.

I try to, like, run my business with her on my hip. Like, she'd come to the office with me. Like, it's madness. And I think it's so much better to be able to realize that you can't do everything. And in our household, we've got two gasses. We've got myself and my husband. And, you know, you can't do everything all the time like it. You just can't.

And it's helped me to learn that I do need to make sure that I do look after all five of those things. I do need to look after my health and not neglect that. I do need to invest time in all five of those things, but just not at the same time. Well, in light of that, and I'm thinking of you here, and you've obviously been so open with me about all the things you dealt with. And I genuinely, my heart goes out to you, Martha. I think any number of those is a lot to carry, let alone all of those. And given that you're sharing that, what would you,

you like to come out of sharing that? What is your hope for that? Because I don't want you to feel that it's just a matter of, I feel like you've been let down and that there's been things you just carried and bottled up. And as I said, any number of those things would be traumatic. But to shift it into a positive, well, you know, this is being recorded and people will listen to your your story, what could come out of it that would actually be like a meaningful, positive? I think that I got very good at putting on a brave face for a lot of my life. And I think that really comes from my parents of, you know, you put on a front and you don't talk about the bad stuff. And an expectation that you will just show up and you just

handle the stuff behind the scenes. And I think my biggest takeaway from everything is that you have to ask for help when you need it. And with my second daughter, I absolutely had time off. And I actually got a, had a post-birth douler who had a C-section with her.

I couldn't do another, do another vaginal bath. I had a post-birth doler who came and looked to help, looked after me. And that was genuinely completely transformed my life and my experience. of that period recovering from a C-section. And I think with everything, like asking for help, like not being afraid to say, I can't do it all and not looking at other people and thinking that they actually do it all

because there's always stuff behind the scenes that you don't see. And I might have looked like I was coping and I had my first daughter, but I wasn't. I was really struggling behind the scenes. And I think anyone, I think first of all, never assume that what you see on social media is real. Secondly, ask for help if you need it. That does not mean that you're any less of a person.

We all need support. I think thirdly, don't neglect your health. I think that is the other thing for me. If you, in pain, that's a sign that something is wrong and is really important to work out why and what you can do about that. And I think I think I have channeled all of that into now turning, you know, doing something where I feel, I'm able to take those

lessons and, you know, help other people. But yeah, I feel like I've really dumped on you. I feel like I really dumped on you. I feel like I really dumped a lot. I don't think you have. I was expecting to talk about all those things. No, I don't think you have at all. I actually think everything you've said is really valid and I'm really grateful that you've shared it. I just, I want, I want you to, to own the fact that when you share things that are. personal, I want you to feel good that there's something positive will come out of it. And I think you're absolutely right. I think that there's such power in being open about these very private, very isolating traumas that so often are the stories people don't tell, that are behind closed doors,

that don't get, don't become part of the public facade at all. Never mind on social media, but also just, you know, in day, day life and all the things that people are holding on to, as you say, that you have no idea what they're going through. And as a result, generationally, your little girls will grow up in a household where they know that all these things are, they can share them, they can look out for warning signs, they can ask for help, they can listen to their bodies. That's incredible. I think previous generations didn't encourage that. That transparency, that communication.

And I still think, I think part of my mind is still so reeling, even just about, as I said, the endometriosis. Like, it's shocking to me that you just thought that was part of what your body was like when you had a period. Like, if my daughter said to me, if my daughter's like off school with her period or like in crippling pain that she can't stand up. Yeah. Like I'm taking her instantly to go and get her checked out. And, yeah, it makes me so. It took me, you know, like two decades to get a diagnosis of something which it shouldn't take that long. Like, the other thing for me was I never took the pill because I was Catholic, I was always like, oh, I don't.

And actually I realized in hindsight that meant that it could run rampant and actually the pill is quite good at controlling it. Because the hormone. Yeah, the hormone thing. And by the time, you know, by the time, you know, got to having children, it meant that I couldn't have children naturally. and I think that's really, really awful. And I think we need to, this is something we absolutely should be talking about more. And it's not, people seem to think if it's a disease of periods, it's not, it's a disease that affects your whole body.

That it's really affected my bowel. And we don't talk about that enough. But also, someone said to me recently off that generation, oh, I presume you would never tell your daughters that they were IVF children. What? Yeah. And I was like, I'm going to tell them and be so proud of that fact, because for me it means that they were wanted, they were wanted even more.

They was like so wanted that I would move mountains to have them. Yeah. I think it's a really precious and medical thing. It's a magic. Like I, I think it's one, like for me they are a little bit of magic. And that lovely doctor who I first saw, who first said to me, I think you've got endometriosis who then went on to transfer both of their embryos. I still think of him all the time.

He's such a nice man. So he, you know, he, I really feel like he was a miracle worker. And I have a friend who, I don't know if she'll listen to this, but a friend who is currently going through IVF with him. And I just, I know she's in good hands. I, when she tells me about it and, you know, it's been really hard for her. And she's, you know, she's like me. She's not been a straightforward process.

And I think it's really important to know other people that have been through it. because it's so worth it, but it feels so isolating when you're in that process. The inject, oh my God, I hate needles, injecting yourself, the scans, the hopes and then the dashed hopes and all of that, it's really awful. But I think knowing that you know, you're not alone and these things can make you a stronger person

and are not, you know, things that are going to define you, they're things that hopefully are going to make, you know, come to something better on the other side, I think. But I'm proud of my girls being IVF babies, and I, and I'm excited one day to talk to them about it. Yeah, and I wish all the best to your friend as well. Yeah.

With everything she's going through. No, I think IVF's incredible. I just feel like it sounds so hard. I think having something medicalised like that and also having to share every tiny bit of your body and all the levels and what's going all the time. I really noise to me. It's when people say on social media,

oh my God, I've got to have a smear. I can't go smear. It's so traumatic. I'm like, it's a smear test. You do not know how many things I have. I've put up my vagina. Yeah. Yeah, I know.

I suppose, yeah. I think it's really important people understand. understand that IVF is incredibly draining. It takes over every part of your brain. It reduces your every day to where you're at in the month. Oh, my gosh. And there's, I can't imagine what it must be like for you as well when you, I know from hearing you talked before that you really like to plan things.

And also your business makes a lot of diaries. And then you become, so all these passing of time is so significant. Yeah. And what's happened. We had a, and a lot of the rounds of IVF were like, During COVID times as well. This is really funny. My first daughter ended up being born in January the first.

But yeah, you feel like you're constantly tracking everything. And I think for me is I'm the sort of person that likes to be in control and know that if I do something to the best of my ability, I've got a good chance of it happening. Whereas the worst thing about fertility is that you have no control, like you have no control over it. Like you have, you feel like in some ways you fail because you can't get to the solution that you want to get to. And that's the hardest thing about it is you just feel it does, it consumes you. Like it takes over all of your headspace. And I don't think I could have done all of what I've done if I was still doing my old life, my old corporate job. So how on earth do you go into an office every day and be that person?

Yeah. I think luckily being able to work for myself and my team were very understanding. I was very, very open and honest with them about it all. So I think it's important we talk about it because I think it's something a lot of women go to that is quite secretive and it shouldn't have to be. It's something that is an experience that is not unique. I totally agree with you. And also to completely alleviate any sense of shame about your body and how you feel about. it and yeah i think that that's a big a big part of it sometimes isn't it of um your relationship

with yourself and where your challenges are in your body but also how you recover from birth and what can happen to you through birth um it's it's complex but it's so important to talk about it i think being a woman is hard it is hard and with all this with mark with your business did your Did you ever feel like it was, did your relationship with your work stay strong throughout all of this? I think that I felt, I found it, I found it very hard towards like the latter end of the phases of IVF just because I felt like it was so all-consuming.

And I think part of starting the second thing was me trying to discover, you're trying to discover what I wanted to bring to the world again. But the thing about when you run your own business is that you can't turn it off. Like you can't shut your laptop and be like, hey, I'm going to go and have a month off. Or, you know, nothing happens unless you're there. And it's definitely in a different place now where I've built this brilliant team who I can leave them to it. And that was the best thing about having my second baby was I was able to say to them, guys, I'm having some mat leave. I'm just going to be off for a bit.

and that was wonderful. But I think certainly through the early stage of the business, a lot of it sits on you. And I think the business was like my first baby and I think my relationship has changed with it because it's evolved and the business is in a different place, the stage three businesses in a different place. But I don't think it made me feel negative towards it.

I think it just made it harder. And weirdly, actually, one of the things that was really probably quite good for me in a way was I felt like I had to be in our office, in our studio every single day. And then when COVID happened and we split out the production side of our business from the rest of the business, like the marketing, the design, anything that didn't need to be physically on site, that was actually really, really good. Both of my husbands and my relationship. and for me because what happened was,

it again created more compartmentalisation, whereas I'm able to let him get on with the bit that he does. And I was able to focus on the bit that I do without me meddling in his stuff. And also it meant I didn't have to be in the office every day and it created space to do other stuff to grow the business in ways I hadn't imagined. And actually has allowed me to look after myself better. and have more time, you know, have more, have more time not to be doing all the things all the time,

which is, was really good for the latter rounds of IVF and then actually I think has been really good for, for all of us. Because also if you leave people to do things, they do things. I think as a, you know, perfectionist, you have got, there is a danger as a business owner that you try and do everything. So delegating is hard. Yeah. Making a business grow is about letting go.

the more you let go and let people get on with things, actually the faster it grows. Yeah. But you kind of don't realise that until you do it. So I think that has definitely helped. And am I right that you still look at your Martha Brook, London, like the sort of business, like values regularly is a sort of way to anchor your relationship with business?

I think being intentional in business is what people buy into, as much as they buy into the product itself. Yeah, very much so. I think it started from a place of wanting to help people capture things on paper. And the fact that I think still now, I very strongly feel there's something magical about writing something down. I really do think that. And I think in this digital world, it's brilliant to be able to put your phone down and have a moment, whether that's keeping a five-year diary or making a photo album.

or more, I think it simulates parts of your brain in ways that being on your phone just can't. And we're actually going through a process now of doing a bit of a rebrand, which is quite exciting and reworking out what those values are. Because I think that has always been really important to us. And I think it has been a real reason that people have fallen in love with the businesses. It's been very much about community. It's been very much about helping people be the best version of themselves and find themselves. And, you know, and, you know, do the thing, you know, people live their dreams and make them possible. And that's what I really, really love about it.

And in a way, both of my businesses do that in slightly different ways. They help people take an idea and make it happen for them. Which is amazing. It is like the best feeling ever. I love that you wrote your list when you sort of had your 40th of just all these things you wanted to achieve and how brilliant it feels to help other people. I think I do feel like when you reach. this part of your, I'm a bit older than you're 47 now,

but when you reach your 40s, you kind of either like consciously sort of open up more or things can start to calcify and draw in, but the more you keep your curiosity and like your outreach, I think the more fulfilling life feels. I honestly, in my 20s, was so hard on myself about everything about myself. And I was like, that was like corporate me.

That was not me. 30s, I felt like was just this decade of grey mouth broke, but also fertility. Now I feel like honestly my life is starting. I know I'm like 43 but I feel I've just got more to, you know, got more to give to the world. And it's brilliant because in your 40s you just stop, really stop caring about what people think about you. And that's taken me a really long time to get to that point. I'm just like, you know, fuck it, I don't care.

I'm going to do the things that I want to do. Definitely. And I continually come back to the fact, do you not want to be in a situation like my dad where I didn't live. live life well I could. And I guess as well there's part of this this chapter of your life that's about putting down any masks you felt compelled to wear and I suppose by you being so beautifully open about your experiences it's a way of also reflecting on a chapter that must have felt like just at the time you're just in it for good. I feel like I've worn a mask for a lot of my life and I kind of I want to be I want to be more open and transparent because I think it's I

think it's important that we are and I think all the things that you go through make the person you are and I don't think you should be ashamed of that like my mum are often things I shouldn't talk about these things and I think that's the wrong way I think about it because I think that not only can it help somebody else but actually it's part of you like these things are intrinsically part of you yeah and and actually positive things come out of sharing experiences I think. And look, you know, everybody's wired differently. And for your mum, that might be how she's always functioned and it works for her. But I think there's so much value in being open about things. And I think, yeah, here's to your businesses. Here's to your little girls and your partner.

But also here's your dad. Because ever since you've been talking about him so much, I feel like he's been woven throughout a lot of it. And I really have this vision in my head of him in the hospital, surrounded by all you, but he is yellow like a Simpson because you said he's like Ned Flanders. He's sort of sat there kind of cartoon drawn like Superman size with the Ned Flander's face. He looks very like, very sweet. He was a really, really sweet man and... What was his name? Philip. Philip. Oh, here's to Philip. Yeah. And his legacy and somewhere out there. I'm sure he's aware of all the good bits followed. Oh, yes. To Philip and his legacy.

indeed. And thank you so much to Martha for sharing so much with me. What a beautiful conversation. And, you know, as ever, when people are kind enough to open up with me, I always want to make sure they feel really good about it. So I spoke to Martha only yesterday and was saying how valuable I think our chat was. So I just wanted you to be reassured that Martha had, you know, it's been given her full blessing to share all of that with you. and I think it all really help people. And yes, if you need help, ask for help. What valuable advice. That's very good advice indeed. And what a glorious, rich conversation to finish this series on.

Thank you so much to all of my guests. As ever, we have bopped about all over the shop when it comes to jobs that my guests have had and how they spend their time and their roots to motherhood and all the good stuff. I am so lucky with this podcast. is given me so much honestly the amount of wisdom I've absorbed and take forward with me and the amount of strength I feel just knowing about this island of women. I mean, look how populated the spinning plates aisle is now with all these incredible women, all these smarts, funny people, clever people, sensitive people, empathetic people, generous people.

It's brilliant. I love being on this island. I'm happy with the world around me. and thank you so much for being a part of it. I think when I started this podcast, I recorded the first interview back in January of 2020, and I had no idea. Firstly, how much enthusiasm and motivation I'd have for keeping to build it.

I've loved it. To how lucky I was with the team I started with Claire Jones, who's produced the podcast from beginning, Richard, who's edited everyone, LMA, who's been doing all the artworks since the beginning. lovely, lovely team, but also so many amazing guests and quite what it was giving me, like a little handbook to this chapter of my life. I've taken so much of it and poured it into everything, actually. It's helped me give advice to my friends. It's helped me feel supported

and myself, and a lot of it was poured into Perimenopopop too, so it's there in my music as well. So lucky, lucky me. And with that, I'm looking forward to the next one because the next series will take me all the way up to episode 200. So I'm thinking I'm going to really go back to my long list of all the names I've been chucking onto this list since I started. And though I've been lucky enough to speak to so many of those women, I'm thinking, right, I'm going to really see some of the people I've always thought, that would be a good chat. I think we should really celebrate the next series and lead up to 200 with a bit of a bang, don't you?

Please, please, please, though, keep your suggestions coming. I'm not just saying it for kicks when I say you've shaped what the podcast is. you 100% have. So whether you stop me in the street, whether you send me a DM on Instagram, whether you put it in your comments on Apple or wherever you get your podcasts, I see it or I absorb it and you help me, you give me inspiration. So thank you. In the meantime, if you're coming to any of the gigs I've been doing, thank you so much. I've been having a ball, serve the band. Richard and I've been loving all the gigs we've had in the diary and all the ones that have to come over the summer. This podcast will take a pause over the summer.

if you are going away, if you've got family time, I hope it's fun, I hope it's smooth, I always get a little bit tense just before we do any family travel. But then when we're all there on holiday and it's, yeah, someone does something funny and we're all up together and it all feels nice and just all the edges are kind of a bit more squidgy around the edges and we're not in our usual routine. I always feel like, yeah, this is what it was worthwhile. It was worth the stress of the packing and getting to the airport and all that stuff. If that's happening for you, I wish you well.

And I'll see you on the other side. I'll be back in, I'm going to say September. Got to get my act together a tiny bit. I haven't even started recording. But hey, I'm keen, so I'll get it done. And yeah, thank you so much for your support. Thanks for your time. Thanks for your ears.

And send you lots of love. And I'll see the other side of summer. Until then, keep dancing and all that jazz. Lots of love.