Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 191: Caroline Hirons

Episode Date: September 28, 2026

Caroline Hirons is a skin care expert, author and founder of Skin Rocks. She has just pulished her 4th book 'Skin Rules: Expert Advice You Can Trust'. She told me that she hates writing books becuase of her ADHD but that she is extrememly proud of her books and feels this is the best one yet. It includes advice on looking after your skin through some of life's huge changes including pregnancy, GLP-1s, cancer treatment and the menopause.Caroline has 4 grown up children: two in their 20s and two in their 30s. She built her career alongside motherhood, as she wanted two children before she was 25 and says she planned her pregnancies 'like a machine'.We talked about how she kept a priority space for the thing she really cared about, in amongst having such a young family.Caroline told me how she's still parenting (about 25 times a day onthe phone!) even though her children are now aged 34 to 22. In fact she took a call from one of them mid interview! She describes being the parent of adult children as being a bank teller, taxi driver and consultant!Caroline now has three granchildren and has talked with great passion about the new level of love to which granchildren take you. She made me laugh talking about her love for her own children now being downgraded by the arrival of her granchildren! The love she feels for her grandkids does sound pure magic!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lestepster and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it all work. I'm a singer and I've released eight albums in between having my five sons, aged between seven years old and nearly 22, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions.

I want to be a little bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spilling Plates. Well, hello. How are you doing? This is exciting. New series of the podcast, which will take me all the way up to episode 200. I get a pack of party poppers to celebrate.

And how have you been? I know it's been a little bit of a longer break. It's because my summer was so happily busy. So I decided just to pause and I started recording new podcast episodes when I got back. So that meant that, yeah, September rolled around and it was time to hit the ground running. And yeah, so I've got some podcasts recorded for you now,

so I'm ready to start sharing them. And I hope you had an amazing summer. I hope if amazing is a bit of a high bar, then I hope it was peaceful. I am not speaking to you from somewhere particularly peaceful. I'm speaking to you from Sao Paulo Airport. I'm just finishing up my final long haul trip of the year as it stands, which I have to say it's been great to be back in Brazil.

I haven't been here for yonks and that's been really cool. And great to meet some new people. And hopefully we'll be able to come back here with my band. But also I'm looking forward to being at home. And after this, I'm not away for any big chunks all the way until next year, unless something changes. So I'm pretty pretty chuffed about that. um oh yeah okay thank you sorry someone's asking if want to buy something i'm okay thank you i'm talking

talking to my podcast person um yeah anyway sorry about the erroneous sound i'm actually doing a bit of guilt looking because i have bought things for all my children just little things except for one so i'm just trying to find something for that one child and that's slightly me trying to suppress the anxiety of maybe I won't find something. You know what, it's a bit busy in here, and it? Anyway, yes, podcast. So, kicking off the new series with such a fantastic guest and someone I had on my wish list for a little while, actually, is Caroline Pyrens. Caroline, you may know her as a bit of a skincare guru. She really does know her stuff. She's super knowledgeable about skin and I have seen a few books in my time about skin but honestly her new book is one I'm

going to keep hold of because it's got so much information for even someone like me who is 47 and has always been a little bit less say fair when it comes to skincare and what does what it really broke things down in a way that felt um packed of information without kind of making me feel like I was supposed to have been doing things that haven't been so I appreciated that and she also has a skincare range called skin rocks. So she's an entrepreneur. She's a successful woman. She's very driven.

She's a mother of four. She is also a grandmother of three, two at primary school, one baby. And it was lovely to talk to her about her relationship with work, her relationship with building her business and how steadily she's done it. I think I said it in my chat, actually. I found her career path very pleasing.

because everything just seemed kind of quite logical and steady. So nothing had been rushed, really took her time learning what she was doing before she embarked on her own skincare range. And it means that the foundations of what she's up to are very strong. And actually, as someone who gets, my skin can be a little bit funny with skincare sometimes. If anything, it's a bit too heavy. My skin doesn't like it. But actually, her products and my skin seem to sit pretty well together. And she has not paid me to say that.

I'm just sharing that feeling. So anyway, this is a lovely chat about, yeah, entrepreneurialism, skin, and the absolute joys of, well, parenting kids who are now adults, so two in the 30s, two in the 20s, and the constant connection that she has with them, but also the absolute magic of grandmotherhood, which I must admit, I'm already looking forward to.

I don't know if it's anywhere on my horizon just yet, but I'm really looking forward to being a grandma one day. Anyway, I'm withering on because I'm just strolling with you through this airport. So let's have a listen to Caroline. Thank you so much to her for coming and being the first guest in the series. And also you're going to sometimes hear a little laugh that is not me and it's not Caroline. It is Liv, Caroline's assistant who sat in with us. And it was actually very cute because, you know, I like making people laugh.

And I think Caroline does too. So whenever we made a joke and got Liv laughing, even though I knew it would be a, the unusual occurrence of a third voice in our podcast. It was actually quite satisfying. So anyway, I'll see you on the other side. And hopefully I'll be a little bit nearer boarding my plane so I can come home to my babies. All right. Take care.

I'm thrilled you came and so is my skin because a little bit like when you're about to see the hygienist. I've given it extra attention. My skin's like, this is juggie. So yesterday doing all the stuff this morning, doing all the stuff. Oh, for God's sake. Just to do my very best because I was like, Caroline's coming. And I appreciate that. Well, there was no need, but thank you.

Oh, no. It's so lovely. And I've been itching to speak to you about so many things. I want to start with your beautiful book, which is so brilliant. Isn't it pretty? It's great. And it's lovely and dense. There's so much information.

It's really clear. It's really well broken down. I love even the things with the hand showing how much of the product to use. I tried. It's wonderful. What do you love so much about what you do? I hate writing books. Great place to start.

I hate writing books. It's torture for me with my ADHD. I absolutely hate it. This is my favourite book, though. I love the colours. I spent so much time. Because obviously, when it's book number four, with the exception of the teenage book,

which is obviously different, the science doesn't change. Like, key bits of the science don't change. So some pages will be very familiar from the first book. But that's because I have to cover it all for someone who's buying this for the first time. But everything else is new. new chapters, new chapters on skin and menopause and JLP 1 and cancer treatment and hundreds,

I mean hundreds of product recommendations, which is what a lot of people buy it for, right? And they've all been redone because some of the brands are recommended back in the day, like think of Wren, gone. Yeah. What a tragedy. So I love this book. I hate the process. And because the success of the books, it's really bad, isn't it?

Because I know that there are people out there who would kill to be a bestselling author three times over. and I don't take it for granted, but I definitely don't appreciate it the way that someone who would crave to be an author. I imagine with you, you know, with your career, if you meet someone and they've always wanted to be a singer,

and you're like, I'm not singing today, I'm tired, I'm a mum. And, you know, and they're just like, wow, I wish I could have that life. You know, but people will say,

oh my God, do you love writing? And I go, no, I hate it. Well, maybe, as you said, it's probably to do with your way of processing as well, because if you find it arduous, just the idea of taking information

out of your head and sort of downloading it into this format. If that's not how you would consume your information, then that's really hard to get in the headspace. But the irony is, I love a good book. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, I love a good book. And I'm always reading. I've always got my head down.

And I think for me, the problem is an empty page. I'm not a writer in that way. So I like to say I'm not a writer. I'm an author. I can write, but I literally sort of gained success, if you like, from writing the way I speak before dicta phones I would just be like

well I would do this but I wouldn't do that you know what I mean spelt J.A do you know what I mean is on the wall in our office because I'd be like I mean you know what I mean

because I knew I'd made the point you know I'd be like oh yeah but you know like you know you know you know very West London yes you know so I have to sit down with like a template almost a skeleton and build out from that that's how I do it

okay yeah so and also there's a lot of information in here. It's a lot of information. I'm what it's like in my actual brain. But I think actually you're right about the tone that you have when you're giving advice and how you've put it onto the page. You're right. It comes from you.

I can hear you in my head as I read what you're writing. So we've written, I should say. Yeah, no, you have to do it like that because I have such a distinctive tone of voice. I know this about myself now. In the early days, I didn't realize that was the thing. But now I know this about myself. And so where I have. had help. So like the cancer section, obviously, I'll go to the experts. Yeah. I'm not a doctor.

I'm not an oncologist. So when they write, it's clearly someone else. It's very professional. It's very, you know, it's as you would expect. Of course. Of course. And get it from the source. So, you know, my spin on it is, look, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Like, I can talk like that. They can't. So it's, yeah, it's very me. And I think this is my favorite. It's, they've also slightly changed the shape from the previous books, which has made it a bit stockier. And I really, love the shape and the style and it's so hard these days to get as it's i think books these days that look like this are similar to vinyl everyone wants it but it's so expensive to do yeah so the only the only way you really get a book like this these days is usually cookbooks and even then it's got to be a

jami oliver scenario yeah because it costs so much money to do a full color hardback with color and photography is the most expensive format for a book as my publisher is always telling me but it wouldn't work another way and i wouldn't do it if there was no pictures because that is is with my ADHD, that's also how I take in information. Yeah. It's visually. So it had to be me all over. Yeah.

Well, it is. It's brilliant. Honestly, I think it's wonderful. And I was gaining so much while I was reading through it. And I really like the sort of hand in your back feel of someone just being like, look, let's boil it down to this so that you don't get overwhelmed. Because there is a lot about skin that can be really overwhelming. I mean, you must have seen so many shifts and changes since you started working in this field. field.

Yeah, it's just relentless. But ultimately, you know, people just want the same thing. They just want to feel good about themselves. Ultimately, people just want to look in the mirror and be comfortable. That's what it comes down to. So my job I see it is just I don't want everyone looking like a surprise tambourine. You know, everyone just needs to be comfortable in their own skin. And if I can help them do that, literally like, oh, yes, okay, yes.

If I can help someone do that, then that job done. And what I found really interesting about your career, which you've very much built alongside motherhood. I mean, you're a mum already when you embarked on what become now your whole world with that. Yeah. It's how it's very pleasing to watch because it really is sort of foundation layer by foundation layer. And I wonder how that's worked alongside your clear work ethic, ambition, drive. to keep such momentum but actually never rush any of the stages because everything looks very intentional and very,

you've always got a wealth that's been driven from each chapter of each part of your career. And I think we're very used to looking at things and it being like, oh my God, you're at this point and you're 32 or something. But there's so much, I think that's maybe part of what is so appealing is it's built on these layers of like, I've had all the facials, I've worked inside all these brands,

I know how this is all built up. So how have you managed that your engine level? I don't think I ever sit still. Literally, figuratively, metaphysically. Like I just, my brain is always on. And I do have to decompress. I do have to line the sofa and put SVU on and just be like, and not speak, not be spoken to.

You know, that's how I put petrol in the tank. But the layer upon layer is exactly how it's done. And it's not that it's even intentional because I think I'm actually more, because I think I'm more ADD than ADHD because I never got the, I got the diagnosis, but I didn't really score high in the hyperact, because I'm very good at chilling, but my brain isn't. And am I right, this diagnosis came in your adult life? Yeah, when I was writing the first book.

Because I really thought, I know what I'll do, because my daughter was diagnosed first. She had an excellent teacher called Mrs. Hithersay, shout her out, because she's still in her life. Good teachers, man. You've got to hold on to them with both hands. And they become a team around you, don't know. And she's still one of Ava's mentors, you know, Ava's doing her yoga training.

And she messaged Ms. Hithersay and said, I mean, we all still call her Miss Hithersay. You know, it's a teacher. You call her by their name, don't you? You can't do the first thing. You can't. No, you just can't. And she said, Miss, I need help. I'm still going to miss, I'm doing this.

And she said, okay, this is how you learn. Your brain can't take in more than 45 minutes. So you do 45 minutes. I mean, she's still getting advice from a teacher and she's 24 years old. And so when Ms. Hitha said, I think Ava has ADHD. and if you get a tested, she'll get longer in her exams. I was offended. I was like, there's nothing wrong with my child.

Don't be ridiculous. I mean, of course she gets it from me. Of course, does all of our kids have ADHD. This is a really familiar tale as well. People think not suddenly... How dare you? And also, like, it's a negative. Because when we did the test, so the teacher does a quiz,

the child does a quiz and the parents do a quiz. And we did the quiz, and I'm looking at it going, oh, God, this is me. Every single question. It was like, it was like perimenopause. You know, there's like 38 symptoms and I had 32. And I was like, wow, this is me. She gets me, time to wind your neck in, be humbled.

Let her get a diagnosis. The irony is all the kids got diagnosed, none of them take the meds because it changes their personality and they don't like it. So they didn't want to take the meds and I'm not going to force meds down their neck. You know, everyone reacts differently to it. So she would take the meds to do her exam and then come home and just be like, I hate these meds. I'm like, don't take them then, babe. Yeah.

And also you're out of school now. You know, I don't believe in overmedicating, you know. It has to be what works for the child. Also, the shape of diagnosis, the aim of the diagnosis and not to go to medication. No, exactly. It's just one of the options you have beyond. This is how you can. And, you know, when I was diagnosed, the doctor I had said, you've clearly, your self-coping tools have, you know, you've managed to cope this far.

I wouldn't particularly change anything. But the irony was, of course, by the time I got the diagnosis and was able to have meds if I wanted them, I'd already written the book. Wow. I'd already written the book. So I had all this going on at the same time. I don't know how people go on holiday and switch off for two weeks. No. I don't know how you do it.

I would be by hour to sunbathing, I'm out of my mind with boredom. I cannot do it. I'd rather go to New York. I'd rather be surrounded by noise. Noise calms me. You know, I think that's why I've got 27 children and grandchildren because the noise calms me. I'm never more peaceful than when I'm surrounded by. I mean, don't get me wrong.

I don't mind's way, can you just please shut the fuck up? Because of a five minutes peace. But actually, it's quite, I'm never more chill. than when they're all under my roof. Yeah, and the bustle of it. Yeah. Yeah, I can understand that very much. And I think also, maybe it's also partly why you've created a business that's shaped by you.

Because I think then you can, it sounds like you instinctively curated these bits. I mean, you said, you know, I know I need this time, this switch off time. Before you knew a name for how you're, how these things were functioning, you'd already found. Oh, yeah. I mean, the coping skills were already there because I already had the business. I already had the family. I already had staff. You know, I was already doing everything.

And obviously, but the overwhelm was just familiar. Yeah. You know, and I was like, okay, I'm overwhelmed. I need to chill. Don't talk to me. So was it a relief to, did it change anything? No. No.

It didn't change anything. I was kinder to myself. So I was kinder to myself. And I remember things like when I was younger, like blurting is a big bit of ADHD because you want to tell people that you can relate to them, but you can come across as rude because you interrupt. And so that was a learning that as kind of lessened as I've got older. I don't do it as much as it were.

It didn't change anything for me, but I was just a bit kinder to myself. And maybe as well, given the fact that your first instinct, when NADD was going for this assessment was like, oh, that doesn't seem right, you've realized that unwittingly you've been modelling how to have a world that works around you. Exactly. So that's, that's reassuring as well. You've been doing it. Yeah, I'm already doing the coping skills. Some of my fears, I can already soothe with how things are grown. And actually, it's so normal these days. It is. You know, it's so normal. And the fact, I just kind of say,

when I do meet and greets and parents say, you know, I get quite a few moms going, my God, my daughter's got ADHD, you talking about it made me feel like there wasn't anything wrong with her. That's fantastic. You know, and I say to them, don't worry about the meds, don't worry about their exams. What are they passionate about? And they've all got an answer. What are they passionate about? Let her do that. You know, one of my friends said yesterday, I said, well, what's that? She's 15. Her daughter's 15. She's got ADHD. She doesn't want to go to school. She hates everyone. She wants to go and live with her nan. I hate you. That stage, which I went through with Ava, 15 to 18, wanted to kill her. And she'll say the same thing, you know, not with the boys,

just my daughter, because she was a teenager as I was perimenopausal. Yes. Just explosive. And I said, well, what's her passions? And she went, oh, she knows exactly what she wants to do. She wants to do the three sciences in A level so she can go and be a Formula One tech. And I was like, let her do that. And she went, well, well, she doesn't get, Caroline is she has to do her frigging O levels first or a GCSE first before she can do that. And that's what she doesn't want to do. So, you know, it's just that if they've got a passion, let them follow it.

Absolutely. Not everyone has to be good at math. Not everyone has to enjoy English. But if they've got a passion, indulge it. I'm 100% with you on that. indulge it. Well, talking of a passion that's been indulged, before we start, actually do start talking about your big relationship with skincare. I do want to go back a little bit before that to when you had your first baby. So you're 22 years old when you have your first.

Baby Ben. Did that seem very young at the time to you? Yeah. It seemed young, but my mum was 22, my Nana was 22. I just kept the tradition going. Well done, because my mum was 23, my grandma was 23. And I was annoyed with myself and I didn't have a baby at 23. I was like I dropped the ball on this one. You made up for time though. To absolve myself. Exactly. But it sounds like maybe somewhere in there was just like this 22 was this sort of maybe. I mean I knew I wanted two kids before I was 25. I don't know where that came from but I always had this vision of I want two kids before I'm 25. I didn't expect to want another two. That was a surprise. But the planning of them wasn't. I mean, I'm type A all the way. Because you're one of two. So sometimes

when you've kind of got a little 10 plates. I'm nine years older than my brother. So I'm more like his second mum than his, and his big sister, you know. And I knew I wanted two. And then there just came a point where I thought, I want a daughter. And I was, the only word I can use is ravenous. I was, I want a daughter. And if the thing is when Ava and I were arguing, I wanted to say to her, if you knew how much I wanted you, you wouldn't be such a fucking bitch to me right now, like literally. Because I could taste my daughter. Like it was, I want a daughter. So I followed the girl diet, the girl's sex.

I did any old wives tale, anything could do, got pregnant with Eva. Boom. And we, I am hyper fertile. So I've had almost as many miscarriages as I have pregnancies as live verses, they would say. But I, I know that I'm very fortunate in that way. because I have so many friends who struggle and I didn't. I could plan the babies to the month. I mean, literally, I go, you need to get me pregnant this month.

That's what it was like. But I've never been as determined. As determined as I'm in business is how determined I was when I came to planning pregnancies. I mean, like a machine. I take the Taipei thing too far. Well, no, I think it's really nice to hear about that. And I think wanting family being lucky enough to have one is like... Exactly.

I don't take it for granted. And I recognize with... every pregnancy that went full term that I was very, very, very lucky, you know. But equally, it's a strange one. I don't know if you've had any miscarriages, but I've had three. I have. And with each miscarriage, I knew it wasn't going to term. Really?

I knew. I would be like, this doesn't sit. Well, I'm not comfortable. Either it wasn't planned or it wasn't planned. Like, there was just something. And they weren't late. I was lucky. I had a mismiscarriage.

So the latest I went was like 12 weeks. But I was also very sort of just logical about it. I didn't grieve, which seems cold, but it wasn't because I never made the connection with the pregnancy. No, I don't think that does sound cold. I think that sounds like a... Like self-protection almost. Yeah, and actually, it reminds me of conversations I have with my mum, and she's always

been very pragmatic. Pragmatic is the right word. Yeah, and I don't think that's cold. I think that, I think there's a comfort in it actually. Yeah, literally. Because you think if you imagine those pregnancies as the, as the, the, you know, the, you children you have everything shifts but if you imagine it as something that wasn't meant to be something was up and your body exactly and i knew and so my reproductive era was pregnancy

so i had ben dan miscarriage ava miscarriage max miscarriage abortion like in a row and so i've done all of it swings and roundabouts for various reasons you know but i i know i got pregnant so easily that I have nothing but the strongest wave of empathy for people who struggle. Absolutely, yes. Because I know what it's like to have the craving. Yeah. But my craving was satisfied. Yeah, absolutely.

And I also have, you know, my heart goes out to anyone who hasn't found comfort in the way we have with that, if that hasn't kicked in. But I do think some of it is luck of the draw for how you're emotionally wired with these things. It really is. Yeah. I think, again, my, and I think it is my ADHD brain always steps in to protect me. I was saying this on a pod the other week how I, when my mum died,

the three things that are immediately in my head, I had, oh wow, this is what this feels like. This is one of those major life events. This is the worst day of my life. And thank God it wasn't one of the kids. That's how my brain immediately went, you're going to be okay. This is horrendous. Part of you is dying inside right now, but it wasn't the kids. Yeah, well, there's.

Isn't that just like, it was immediate. I get that, though, because I think grief without. If loss follows the natural order of things, there is something to be said to the fact that it's not got the tragedy of... Oh, my mum would absolutely agree with me. You know, when my nana died, my mum was devastated, but if it had been me or my brother, she would have been far worse. So it was the natural order.

It was too soon for me to lose her, but it was the natural order of things. I always think you need different words in the vocabulary for these different, you know, interactions with grief, actually. And it sounds like your mum influenced a lot of what followed in your life. anywhere with even... Oh, number one influence, easily. Easily to all of us. Even, you know, when we were in hospital,

I found a video the other day because Ava had the baby in June. And she was doing an impression of my mum as we were checking out the hospital and my videoed, we were both doing an impression of my mum and what she would be like if she was there. It was very funny and entertaining.

But, yeah, my mum was absolutely my number one influence. What's your mum's name? Kathy. Oh, Catherine. Yeah, Kathy Black. There's a lovely bit I found online, actually a picture of your mum behind a beauty counter and a picture of your nan behind a beauty counter back in the glorious days like are you being served like leak everywhere chiffon everywhere

everyone smelled amazing can you imagine i would love a little walk around that so gorgeous just my earliest memories are going to see my nana on counter and just the smell the smell like girlan just the fragrances just the heady fragrances and everyone looked immaculate and it was the service industry the service industry there was no shame in it it wasn't like oh it's retail you know, everyone loved that job. The fact they made a whole show around all you being served is, you know, people don't get it. Like, it's the service industry. I mean, I always say if it all goes to shit tomorrow, I'll go back to the shop floor happily.

Well, for a lot of people I've spoken to where they've had a similar experience of starting in that and then building your business later. They often talk about that as a real halcyon period because of the interactions with people and how that would really. It teaches you everything. The service industry, I think everyone should work in the service industry at least once. So how old were your baby? when you started working in Harvey Nichols? Max Nova weren't born and Ben and Dan were, well, I went full time when Daniel started nursery full time at four,

so he must have been about three. So they would have been like three and five. And did you go towards it as a kind of, I'll see how this goes, or was it something? Just needed the job. Just needed a weekend job. So you weren't looking for it thinking, I need an end to this world.

No, not at all. No one was more surprised than me. And equally, weirdly, as much as beauty had been a part of my mum and my nana's life, that we'd never discussed me working in it. Really? Never. And so I got the job at the evader counter in Harvey Nichols.

And it was a Saturday, worked on the Saturday, you know, shadowed everyone. And on the Sunday, because obviously back in the day, Sundays weren't, were quiet. They weren't the day they are now. And the other person was supposed to be working called in sick. And I was on my own on the evader counter in Harvey Nichols. And took more money on the Sunday than they had as a whole team on the Saturday. And I was like, not only do I love this, but I'm good at it. And I'm not selling people stuff.

they don't need. I'm just sharing my passion. Like, smell this. This is amazing. Smell this shampoo. You need this. Do this. And that was it, really. I never look back. I literally on day two, went, I'm never going to work anywhere else. Everything I do has to be. And somehow in retail, beauty, something. And now come here. I'm stuck. Oh, it's so neat, though. I speak to you my peripheral vision with your fourth book. It's very, very perfect. And I'm thinking about the time as well when you're studying your beauty qualifications, skincare qualifications, and you've got, by now, you've had your third baby.

No, I'm pregnant with Ava. Oh, you're pregnant with Ava? Yeah, I'm pregnant with Ava. And because I got pregnant with Ava while I was in the middle of doing college. Did you have two pregnancies during this time then? I had to stop, have Ava, and then I went back to school, and they got pregnant again with Max. And I took my exam when I was eight months pregnant with Max

and got my certificate, like two or three days before I gave birth. So do you look back at that and think, that looks tiring? I look back and think, fuck me. Like, excuse my French, but Jesus Christ, I was, I mean, running on petrol just, just, you know, four kids. So three kids, pregnant with another. I'd go and work all day and then go into central London, into Steiner in Wardle Street, and do three hours of beauty twice a week, Monday and Wednesday night.

And for like, in the end, it was over a three, three and a half year period to do all the hours I needed to do to get the level of qualification. wanted because I'm type A. Incredible. And how... Why picked it easy route? Well, I mean, that is an extraordinary thing to be getting up to. And how did you manage your... How did you manage to keep a priority space for the thing you really cared about

in amongst having such a young family? Because I think for any working parent, that can be really challenging. And I know that it's all very well to sit here now and say, but I was working towards something and they've obviously got such a fabulous example, a working mother and a working grandmother. But at that time, there's a lot of uncertainty in the air. Yeah.

The path is not already laid. So how are you helping yourself with that? We need the money. I need to feed the kids that I'd been desperate to have. I mean, that's literally out. I don't come from money. My husband didn't come from money. We both worked.

bootstrapped everything from the ground up. And we needed money, so I had to go to work. And when that has been such a drive, the economy of it, aside from the fact that clearly is something you're passionate about and you're like, I'm not doing anything else ever again. But if it is economically driven, how do you try to instill the same thing in your kids? It's not as easy.

It's not as easy. Well, the thing is as well, like I think as parents, well, certainly I can speak for myself. I don't want my kids to have to work as hard as I did. I do think some struggle is good for you. You know, you do need a character. I don't know if I'd go as far as doing like a Bill Gates and saying, my kids are only getting a million dollars each when you're Bill Gates.

You know, like sort your kids out, but if you've instilled good character in them, you'll be okay. And my kids have all got good character. So I'm comfortable with that. Will they ever have the same drive? I did, no. Of course not, but then not a lot of people do. I know I'm a bit of a lunatic. I don't expect it from my kids.

You know, I expect them to do something and get off their ass. But they now talk about me in fond terms in terms of watching me work when they were growing up, all of them. And see it as me setting an example. You see, I think this is something, well, and I don't think that's an aside. I actually think that's a really reassuring block capital thing. Because I think with parenthood, we're very encouraged to think about the early years as being so, you put so much pressure on yourself about those early years. but actually parenting is a long game. I'm still parenting.

My kids are 34 to 22 and I'm still mum about 25 times a day on the phone. So you have two in their 30s, two in their 20s. What does parenthood look like then with that age? You're a bank teller and a taxi driver. I always describe it as you go from being a manager to a consultant. You know, you go from being a manager where everything they do is under your control and you have to make sure they go this way and that way and this way and then you become a consultant and they call you for advice and money that doesn't change I called my mom for

money for years when I had kids I'm like monkey by the uniform I'm skin course I can babe you know and so I I'm very we're very active in each other's lives and they know I'm here if they need me and sometimes I will step in and be mum and they don't like it a lot of the time because they're adults I don't care still you're still my kid you know I saw someone describe it once as like when you have a kid and especially because I've got four it's quite handy it's like the four chambers of your heart have left your body and they're out there walking around without you. And that's what it feels like, doesn't it? It's like the first time they start going out on their own, you're like, okay, well, when they're coming home. Yeah. Because when my boys were

out on the road, there was no phones. You couldn't track them. It was just like, be back for so and so, you know, where are they? You'd have to call them moms. Have they been there? Torture. Yeah. So when the kids, because three of them have taken me off a fine my, and nothing gives me more rage. I'm like, put me back on fine my, because I don't need to know where you are. I just need to know that you're moving and alive. And I just need to be able to chill. So when they're travelling, like, Ava, if she's travelling, like, make sure you turn on fine, which, you know, my mum and dad would be like, be back in at tea time.

And then you're gone for the day. Gone. Yeah. You know, if the lights were going dark and they'd be like, Caroline, your mum's calling you. Be like, shit, quick, you know. Oh, my God, I'm so glad it wasn't fine mine when I was young. I was actually just picturing all of that. Where is she?

She's in a field, snogging a boy. She's in a field snogging a boy. She's in a field, snogging Lindsay Adkins. It would have been better if it was a field. I would be like, why is she in Kings Cross? It's two in the morning. It's way worse, way worse. But I do think I've loved hearing you talk about, well, first of your family life,

but also grandmotherhood, which looks like such a rich and wonderful role to be in. It's the highlight of my life. How can, I've always struggled to get my hands. head around the idea of this love that's somehow even sort of more richer for a grandpapie sometimes without the complexity of those that you gave birth to. How would you sort of sum up that? Well, I saw a comment that said, grandchildren are the Lord's gift to you for not killing your teenager. And never is anything wrong more true because they are, it's just joy. Just joy. The first time my son held past his daughter to me, because I picked them up from the hospital,

feel to take them home and it was because it was during lockdown. We weren't allowed in. So he was with Lily when she had the section and then he brought the baby out and passed her to me to put in the car seat. I had this immediate, here she is. Here she is. She was familiar to me. You know, like this is, this is mine by default, you know. And then my son starts using words like boundaries, whatever. But the baby, the baby thing with the grandchildren is, for me, was all encompassing, powerful, just a different level of love. Like you love your kids to the point where you would die for them, but you love your grandkids to the point where I'd push my son in front of the bus to save his kids. And he knows that. He'd laughs. He's like, that should be, mum, that's fine.

Like, I love you. If the choice is there, I'll go in front of the bus. Don't get me wrong. But don't get me wrong. I'm not going to sacrifice you for me. It's not you than me. Yes. It would be me first. But, and it's instinctive. And I, I feel. feel it from because we have a newborn and then I have the other two that are sort of you know primary school and I feel it from them every time I see them it's just this instinctive deep awareness that we are connected. Sounds very magical. It's absolutely magical is the right word. You know, there's just and it's strange for my son because you know I share things with my daughter or who I adore. She's one of my own kids, you know, I share things that say, you know,

like my son will say, you know, well, who's the woman that. raise me. Where's she gone? And I'm like, well, she's not as stressed anymore. And now we have money. So nanny's just going to spoil them rotten. He said to me the second year. He said, Mum, look, last year was insane. We don't have anywhere to put all this toys and just all this shit you're buying them. Like, just don't go mad. I went, son. And I've told this story sometime, but it rings true with everyone I speak to. Son, I do everything you ask. They don't get the food they're not supposed to get when they're here. I don't overply them with sweets. they go to bed on time, they have a bath, they do their teeth, everything, you will never dictate

how much money I spend on my grandchildren. And he just went, what's the fucking point? I went, I really don't know. And I said to him, you will be lucky if you don't turn up on Christmas Eve and there's not a fucking pony attached to that tree. And he just went, okay then. Glad we had that chat. Great. Don't even bother. Everything else you have a say. Financials, no say whatsoever. I will spend whatever I want to spend. Because I didn't have that with the kids. Yeah. We were always skint and scrabbling and like, oh God, I want to get them this.

You know, borrow your brother's uniform and all of that. So now I'm just like, it was my granddaughter's birthday this week. And she, I went around to see them because I'm going away for a few weeks for work. And she was lying on top of me like this with, you know, the hand on the chin. Nanny, in my face, like here. Nanny, and you know how they talk when they're that age? Everything's so, they enunciate so clear. Nanny, did you get me a present for my birthday?

And I was like, yes, I did. and Daddy's going to have to put it together for you because Nanny won't be here so happy then. I've got your card and she went, is it? And she went, and is it a pink Barbie truck? And I went, no, but you didn't ask Nanny for a pink Barbie truck, did you? And she went, okay. But I could eat them.

Could eat them. Back to the ravenous again. Ravenous. I mean, I will, I'm just saying to all my kids, just have babies. Like, not the younger two, not yet, you know, but Ava got in there, so that's fine. but I'm yeah obsessive is the word I'm one of those grandmothers I will pull out of phone it sounds like a great grandma

just love love love love love them and I also think it's funny when you said about your son saying you know you have me trying to say can you just curb the spending of that no no no you don't have ownership of that this way that you have of being very clear with your thoughts and what works for you and what doesn't which runs throughout everything that you do and the way you deliver your expertise.

Is this something that is, if I, if I'd met you like 20 years ago, would that we've been running through then? Or is this something that's grown with your knowledge and your, you know, the chapter you're in? I think it's always been there. I think it's probably stronger now that I'm post-menopausal than it ever was. I certainly have grown to be very comfortable with my own thoughts and feelings and being who I am.

And like any woman, I think, when you're younger, you sort of suppress it. you know yeah but i don't suppress anything these days if someone's not comfortable around me then don't be around me that's absolutely fine it's so good though and what i love is that you're of all the noise around skincare i really firstly i really trust what you say and secondly i know that you're not going to have any bollocks in there it's absolutely going to be tried tested um i just think uh you know it says on the book actually expert advice you can trust. I think that is absolutely true. I feel very solid with the information you partake. Well, that's a compliment. Thank you very much. No, absolutely. And I also think,

I mean, I listened to so many interviews with you before you were coming today. And I found you so captivating. And I love how much humor is laced in there as well alongside all the knowledge. Always. Always. It has to be. But, well, it's not always there. Sometimes people will get very serious about things. And it doesn't ring as true with something. because it becomes all a bit tonally one level. So, yeah, it's a real skill, I think, to be able to keep people engaged while they're also being told things. Yeah.

I think that comes from the sales floor. That comes from having to talk to customers. You know, I've been in sales for 40 years, literally 42 years. And so I know how to talk to people. I know how to talk to people. I know how to look at people and go, do they really want a sales pitch? Because a lot of people do. Obviously, when people, by the time they get in front of me,

they're like, tell me what I need to buy. And that isn't normally how I operate. Normally operate by, you need this, you don't need this. That's where all the packaging came from. You don't need that. Try this. You know, and it's certainly got stronger as I've gotten older. But then it's just more experience. You know, I'm 57. I don't suffer fools. I sleep well. I think my moral compass is very strong. You know, I've never lied about a product. I've never sort of taken money to sell a product that I don't think would work for people. I've always been very clear. You know, every time we get a product. You know, every time we get a product. a brief through for ads. We look at it and go, well, I'm not going to say any of that. You know, because they want you to follow a script. And I'm like, I'm not going to say any of that. Give me three key points. You want me to get across and I'll do it in my way.

But, you know, we get things through from like usually American brands. And it says all over it because they've once sent me a wrong contract this shit. I've got sent one that was for an American influencer. And it said all over it, do not declare this as an ad. Do not declare this as an ad. And I was like, I don't think you're talking to the wrong person here, babe. And they're like, sorry, no, that's the American contract. Legal maybe?

Literally. And I was like, it's also illegal in the US. Why, the FTC saw this, you'd be torn to shreds. Don't declare this as an ad. Don't use the ad tool on TikTok. And I'm like, wow, you guys really do this shit. We just said, no. So not only can I not say any of that, I'm not going to not declare an ad. So, yeah, my moral compass is very steady. Well, it's an asset, isn't it? It's such a good feeling to know yourself like that. And I do think, I think it's really brilliant to sing the praises of, you know, getting older for women because there's so much power and joy in it that I don't think was really I don't think I saw those that that lighthouse flaring from when I was young no I didn't either and that's why when I was going through perimenopause I didn't know what it was I was just piling on weight I thought carbs and red wine were in my food group and I was I had brain fog I had no energy I mean every cliche vertigo my vertigo was so bad I they called an ambulance and thought I was having a heart attack. So the fact that menopause is spoken about so openly now is the reason women,

I think, have really changed their direction. You know, menopause information and social media are really galvanising women in a way that men hate. And I'm here for it. Those kind of men. Not all the men we love. Those, those, handsmaid, handmaid tail men. Not the ones we're raising. Not the ones we're raising. Not the ones we're raising. No, they're fantastic. But, you You know, that kind of the sort of typical cliche stereotype, man in business who there's something, you know, there's a reason that all the most, the wealthiest people in the world are men. Yeah.

With the odd Walton family in America who own Walmart, you know, but I think the tide is shifting. I mean, the Lindsay Clancy case has been key in this last month, you know, for women just being like, oh, the fact that it was 11 to 1 and the 1 was a man was no surprise to any of us, you know, and all the women saying it was so clear how much. much she loved her children, even her mother-in-law defended her in court. That was a really difficult. Horrendous, horrendous. So, you know.

I was trying to explain that to my boys, actually. I'm not sure I was quite the right. I was saying to say, like, don't engage too much in what you think about the case. Look at where it resonates. That's what I'm trying to draw attention to. Yeah. Because obviously the case is horrific and terrifying. The thing is, though, I find when you're talking to women about it, we don't even need to

mention the children because we all know what she, we don't know what she's going through, but we know what the result is of the actions. So it's not that the children have forgotten. It's that we don't even need to talk about it because every woman, especially women who's had multiple children, especially in her case, gets it. Us talking about her and what she went through is not taking away from the children, not being here anymore.

Quite the opposite, I think, you know. So yeah, that kind of thing. And then the abortion movement for me is key. If I was going to sell the business, retire and have a lot of money, I would put it all in women's rights, all of it. women's rights worldwide you know how dare you try and tell me what i can and cannot do with my own body how dare you think that i will leave this world with my granddaughter having fewer rights than i had in the you know in the 21st century absolutely fucking not yeah yeah absolutely and obviously those are

very those are the extremes but even in the as you say about how social media is galvanized i'm i'm quite fascinated by that because you're right i think all these conversations around perimenopause menopause, you know, it means that all these conversations and communities that previously would have got quieter and quieter, I've now got spaces. We can all find each other and have these conversations. And we're all out there and we all go the same way. Absolutely. Absolutely. And if we go back to skin, is perimenopause up there as like some one of the biggest sort of skin changes

along with your sort of teenagers? Yeah. And for women, hormonal change is a key. And perimenopause, I developed acne out of nowhere when I was in my early 40s and still didn't put it down to menopause. I didn't know what was happening. I went to the doctor. I got antibiotics. I took them for a few days and then went, hang on a minute. What are you doing? Change your skincare. You know, the irony of it happening to me and then not doing what I tell people to do, you know. And then I changed my skincare and I sorted it out myself and I didn't take the antibiotics. I came off everything cold turkey, which you're not supposed to do, but that's very me. And then I started slowly to realize, hang on, this is my hormones?

And then a couple of friends said to me in the same space of a couple of weeks, oh, you should go and see the hormone doctor so-and-so because we did and it's life-changing. But that took years, years. I mean, I was 50 before I got HRT. And if I had got it in my early 40s, my God, I'd be a weapon now. I think that's awesome. Can you imagine? But what if you're, so most people who listen to my podcast,

in that demographic. If you're someone like me who's been a very, what's the word? Yeah, because they're slightly negligent owner of skin. Is it too late? And what should I be doing more of?

It's not too late. I would go and see a professional if you haven't done anything with your skin because a lot of people are intimidated to go to a beauty counter and I understand that or to go into like a space in K or a Sephora because you feel like you're going to get sold to.

And for the most part, you are. So if you haven't done your research or you're not sure, you're still done your research, you're not sure, then go for a facial. Go and see a professional. I always say, you know, we brush our teeth. It doesn't stop us going to the dentist. You know, you, we brush our hair and wash our hair. It doesn't stop us going to the hairdresser. But I think the, you know, the media has also done quite a bit to put people off going for facials as if people who study skin aren't important unless you're a dermatologist. And it's just nonsense, you know. Our basic training is like 300 hours, physiology, anatomy, all of it. So I would go.

and see someone, you know, we've got Skin Rocks pros around the country. There's a find facialist tool on the website and they're all trained in the product and how to do the advice and, you know, not that they needed our training, they were already qualified. But it helps to have someone to talk to, to go, oh yeah, that's totally normal or maybe that product's not for you, you know, just an extension of what we do online, really. You know, it's, I would say, sort out your washing as in your face. You know, like if you're using wipes, please throw them away or keep them for a festival. But yeah, sort out your cleansing, check you using the right

moisturiser and then go from there. There's no point in going out and spending a load of money on a really expensive serum if you're not doing the basics, right? And that's kind of where I start with everyone. What do you wash with? What do you moisturise with? Do you use an SPF? Those are generally the first questions that come out of my mouth.

And, you know, and what aren't you happy with? Yeah. Because I'm not going to stand. I'm never going to stand in front of someone and critique their face. That's not what I do. I just say what are you concerned about? And how does having a baby affect your skin? Well, it depends if you're having a boy or a girl.

Really? Weirdly, yeah. Because the hormones that rage around your body are slightly tweaked. So when I was having Ava, I was, this is for me. My skin was, I mean, the bounciest, juiciest it's ever been because I was overflowing with estrogen is how I felt. And when I was having the boys, I very clearly felt some testosterone. own. I just, you know, psychologically people might say that's nonsense, blah, blah, but actually,

you know, you're growing this, this person in your belly and the hormones are there, the blood exchanges are there. And I just, you know, I got more spots when I was having the boys, just little things like that. But essentially, you have, you go through the biggest hormonal surge and drop when you give birth than you ever will. And so that period when you're given birth, I would say, just take it easy on yourself. Don't try and do too much. Don't try and introduce actives, give yourself time. You know, they say it takes nine months to have a baby and nine months to get over it. I think it's a bit longer, you know, especially if you breastfeed. Yeah, I would say longer. The hormonal surges in your body are huge. It feels like at least a year.

At least a year to sort of start to feel, okay, I remember who I am now. I'm not just a cow. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not just others. Yeah. And also just who am I again after. I mean, when you were having your babies, did you ever worry about how it might affect? your ambition? Not really. I mean, I had moments where I thought I should be further along in work, but I'm not because I've had a baby, but that's fine, I'll get there. That's your own drive speaking. That's my own drive speaking, yeah. But no, I always felt like I could do both. And when they were little, were you going back into studying pretty quickly

then? Yeah, so I had Ava at home. I didn't have her at home. I mean, when she was at home and I would, you know, I would be working. And then I'd go into, started college again when she was a little bit older. I didn't go straight back. So by the time I went back to do my final year was when I got pregnant with Max. So it was at least 18 months, two years later.

Wow. And then I got pregnant again. I was like, wow, okay. The school are like, are you going to keep having kids? Are we going to finish the course? I'm like, no, I'll finish the course this time. It'll be fine. I've looked at the timings.

I'll be very big. And so when I did my exam, they had to put me at the front of the room because I couldn't fit behind the bed. So they had to, they had to, so when if you go into an exam room, there's like long layers of, it's like a hospital ward. Bed, bed, bed, bed and you sit behind it. And I couldn't fit behind the bed.

So they had to put a bed out in the front, like a long side. And then I, so I could be seen by the examiner, but also fit behind the bed because I was so big with Max. I'm actually just marvelling at all that you were going back home to the three babies. Three babies and work. And work. And I think, no wonder you're tired. And I know you've got a very pragmatic mind. What's the pragmatism with the bits that?

Because there is always a bit where you're like, right, I'm going to, I have to go out again. I know you needed to put food on the table. I understand the economic thing. But the mother heart that's like, I know I won't be at that school pickup or, you know, bedtimes. I didn't mind missing school pickup. I didn't miss the school playground at all. I picked a bad example. No, I think I'm like Danny Dyer.

That clip he talks about. I just want to get in the motor or pick up the baby, getting the motor done. I've heard you talk about soft play and I feel like exactly the same, by the way. fuck itself. It's the one thing, when I think of the worst aspect of that is where my mind goes, soft play. Yeah. It looks all the edges off you as well. You could be anyone sat there.

Yeah. It's so hard to bring your sense of self. It's the air and the wheel pit and the way it smells and the sounds. The noise, the screaming, the birthday parties. And then, I mean, some of them. A Lord of the Flies style, sending them in, they come out holding something. Yeah, someone kicked me. Oh, what's going on in there?

It's the all. I mean, some of them. Come with me. No. No. I don't want to go down a tube slide. Some of them cottoned on and started serving booze during them, remember? Yeah.

Yeah. Which seems to me, to be honest, I don't want to get drunk there either. No, and I don't want to get drunk with the kids. I just don't want you to be here. I just don't want to be there. We went to soft play in Longleat with the grandchildren, and we walked in and my grandson was hurt within 30 seconds. So get out, we're going, we're not doing this again, ever again.

Why don't even bother? I hate soft play. Yeah. Hate soft play. I think for me it was also the loneliness of it, because they run in and then they run off and you're just sat there at those little tables with some shoes and everything's sort of sticky. And you think, what do I do now? I just sit here and wait.

And then I just start thinking about nits. And I sort of itching and I think, oh, God. So yeah, no, soft play is not for me. But in terms of the kids and all the different sort of, all the different bits of, you know, I never missed a play. I never missed a PTA. Not the PTA. I never missed like a parent's evening, that kind of thing.

But, you know, there would be things where I'd say, I can't drop you all. off today and I'm not going to be home for pickup tomorrow. Dad's going to do this. So by the time we had Ava and Max, Jim was doing all of the sort of parenting with the day in and the day out. So I did the first two. He did the second two. We kind of just switched because I was earning more money. I was more ambitious. But I was always there, you know, if there was something wrong, if they're not well. If they're not well, it's easy because their dad's at home. But, you know, for example, Max was hospitalized. It turned out he was lactose intolerant, but he had pneumonia when he was a baby and he was so ill and just vomiting and couldn't keep

anything down. And of course then, Yeah, I know, I'm in bed with him. Like I'm living in the hospital. That's different. Oh, yeah. But I found it quite easy to compartmentalize. Which is, again, one of those things, I think, if you're lucky enough to have that style of brain, it's a big asset, I think, be able to compartmentalize. And I think my ADHD comes out in, I mean, I blame it on the ADHD.

It could just be me. But, you know, I don't, I'm very good at rescuing my brain from going too far worrying. So I don't really get anxious. I don't really get stressed. Like, oh God, what about this or that? I'm like, it'll be fine. We'll work it out. That's always been the way I am.

And with your skincare range, what was the impetus for that? Because presumably you could have stayed within a sort of consultancy expert role. What made you want to take the plunge with that? It just got to the point where I'd reach the peak of the blogging world, as it were. I'd done the book. I'd consulted for all the best. brands in the industry, you know, the brands I wanted to consult for. And I got to the point where I was fixing everyone else's problems and just thought, I know what I'm doing here. So why

don't I do it myself? You know, I know how to get a product started. I know what I would do. Why don't I just, instead of making everyone else's fortunes, why don't I think about my own family? You know, and I hate the story that you get when people launch a skincare brand and they say, oh, it didn't exist. So I had to create it. Piss off. Like, oh, you've come to rescue us have you because no one else is doing it right. I just knew I could do my best work and that it might be successful. So why not give it a go, you know? I really love that. I love that you've acknowledged that there were things, you're just like, if I pull this and this and this and this, there's something here. I can make that. Yeah. And does it feel like it's allowed

something new to take flight? Kind of. I mean, if people say, did you always know you don't up here? I say no, I always knew I'd be successful. I always knew I trusted myself in terms of work and work ethic more than anyone else. So I always knew I'd be okay. I just wasn't, I was never really sure or fixed on how I would do it, if that makes sense. I was never really adamant about I've got to do this, this and this. I'm always been good at pivoting. Yeah. And it's, it's so exciting to let life surprise you a bit actually. Yeah. And be like, oh, okay. Not in terms of like one of our girls in workers just found out she's pregnant and everyone was giving her a big cheer yesterday and she said she doesn't want to know what it is and I'm like I can't relate I had to know what mine were

really yeah when they wouldn't tell you because when I first had ben and dan it was back in the days where they wouldn't tell you what you were having you'd have to go for a scan and they'd say the baby's healthy and that was it yeah yeah and I'd be like what is it is there a penis I just need to know what I'm having and then by the time we had Ava and Max they would tell you what it was I had to know even though I knew instinctively what three of them were I and I would only ever had Like, only have had girls names for Ava. I only have a boy's names for Max. I knew Max was going to be Max before I even conceived him.

I was, like, obsessed. Yeah, I'm a bit obsessed with name things. I've still got a list. It's hilarious. Crazy, isn't it? Some of my ideas of baby names are really funny. They're like really out there. Like, very old-fashioned names.

But like ones that nobody's using anymore. Yeah. I'm trying to think we're good an example. I think I had like Pam on there. Nice. Sue. I really, if Mickey had been a girl who's going to be Sue, I just thought, come on.

Brilliant. There's no baby sous. Brilliant. I wanted to get driven up. But I think when my mum had my sister, who's in her 30s, so same thing with your older kids with not knowing. She just said to the sonographer, I already have a boy, should I be keeping hold of his clothes or something like that,

something like that, you might not need to do that or something like that. Right. Coddy way of finding out. With me, I just got really good at, I could see the scans. Yeah, I'm actually quite good at reading. Yeah, because you're like, oh, I can see a penis. Yes, there it go. I mean, they weren't going to tell me with Ben, but as soon as they put the scan on,

it just so happened that he was upside down flying with his legs in the air and I could see a penis. Yeah, there you go. And I said, oh, is that a Willie? And they went, well, we can't. I went, oh, it's a Willie. I knew he was a boy, you know. Well, the running thread throughout all of this is that you seem very good at being able to know yourself in these things, which is such a glorious attribute.

And I think that's also something that people gravitate towards. because there are so many times enough when you don't really know so when someone's like come over here this bit I've got it's very reassuring before we finish

I have one final question for you and actually it's not coming it's nothing to a skin but I realise that there's loads of songs with Caroline in it you've got so many songs

and I wondered which one is your favourite I get sweet Caroline obviously my granddad used to sing Carolina Moon to me, which I didn't even know. She was like, Carolina Moon keeps shining. And I'd be like, I have never heard it since. I don't know who sings it. I thought it was just him making it up. It might be, I don't know. It's not ringing

any bells, but I don't know. And then there's pretty and pink. Oh, yeah. Caroline laughs and just raining all day. Psychedelic first. And there is. There's Caroline No by the Beach Boys. But actually, it's O Caroline by the 1975. Ah, good one. Yeah, because my sons are huge fans. We're all huge fans and Denise is a girlfriend of mine. And so we've been at their gigs where all the family and everyone turns to sing it to me and stuff. And at one point, Denise said that one of her mates on loose women said, did Matty write this about Caroline? Meaning me. She was like, no, no, it's one of X, Y, Z's his old girlfriends. I was like, well, that's kind of, that's the flattering, bless his heart. I could be his mother, you know, but probably O Caroline by the

1975. Good one. I'm glad I asked. Oh, thank you so much. And thank you for writing such a Thank you for having us. It's going to stay with me. Sometimes when I've got podcast, guests and they've written books, I'll read it and then I'll be like, okay, I can share it, but I'm going to keep my copy.

Well, thank you very much. I'm honoured. Thank you for having me. It sounds like a really backhanded compliment, but I do mean it because I just want to be able to refer to it. No, please keep the book. I'm going to write your name all over it so no one else can take it. Thank you.

Yeah, you see, I've been thinking to myself, I bet Caroline has got a favorite Caroline song. There are so many. I think mine might have to be. Caroline, which is the Fleetwood Mac song. I always like that one. It's on the album Tango in the Dark, the one after Ruiners,

which is actually my favorite album of theirs, FACFANS. I've still got a little minute before boarding, so thank you for sharing this time with me. Thank you so much to Caroline. Isn't it lovely to hear from different stages of motherhood and the path that can follow? And actually, I love the fact that Caroline,

worked so flipping hard when her kids were young, but really shows you about how the depth of those relationships can really benefit what happens later on when you've got adult children. I think so often when we're about to have our first baby and you want to have something you're growing for yourself or you need it economically or you're in the middle of things or whatever your story is, because that person had their phone on loud,

you can really get so wrapped in the the guilt of how it can all work but look, she just shows you the path is long and your kids grow up with a good work ethic and I think Caroline is such a good example of that so lovely to hear about that and also lovely yes

to hear about her relationship with her grandbabies very very cute and congratulations to her daughter because I think her baby's only a few months old maybe she could be a future guest one day listen we're up and running the new series like system go.

I've got some lovely guests coming up for you, ranging from an activist to a singer, to a midwife, to a chef. I'm just thinking of top of my head. Names you're going to know.

People I'm maybe going to introduce you to the usual, gorgeous, eclectic mix of wise voices sharing their stories with generosity. And you are being super generous with your time too. So I appreciate it. Lovely to be back.

I see on the other side, so I'm going to head to my gate. That's the luck. Thank you.