Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 192: Dolly Jones

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

Dolly Jones is a former Vogue.com editor who spent over 20 years at Condé Nast overseeing digital content at director level. Based on her experience of motherhood whilst in these roles, she has written a book called 'Leaving the Ladder Down' which is a funny, positive and practical guide for women thinking about how parenthood might affect their career. She has two children aged 11 and 13.Dolly describes getting support for young children during your working hours as the 'patchwork quilt of childcare'. She also said that one of the many women she spoke to for the book, hadn't realised till she had children herself, that as a parent you can feel that you've run a marathon before you even get to work!She also asked people to share their worst parenting mistakes, and once she had shared her own, people were very forthcoming with some great stories!Overall the book has a reassuring positivity, which I love.With both of Dolly's children now at secondary school, she spoke about how our identity is like a little candle flame, and said that now that school drop offs and pick ups are a thing of the past, she is looking forward to putting a bit more time into nurturing that flame. For instance she's started learning the piano, and can now play 'very badly'. So I asked her to play us out with a tune. But she seemed oddly reluctant to do so!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Spexter and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it all work. I'm a singer and I've released eight albums in between having my five sons, age between seven years old and nearly 22, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a little bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates.

Hello, Sunday morning here. I'm in the park. It's actually the first time I've taken the kids to a playground in absolutely ages. I feel like it's just not something we do that much of at the moment. But actually, it's very sweet. I'm watching my two youngest and a friend for the 10-year-old playing on swings. And we cycled here, and it all feels quite wholesome. And I'm having quite a nice Sunday, actually.

So happy to be home. It's been a busy old time of it, but it's also been good. I came back from Brazil. when I last spoke to you, I think I was actually a bit jet lagged. There's only a four-hour difference, but it was just enough, you know, to really knock my sleep out of whack.

And then it's just been usual week, really, but kind of plugging back into everything because I'm home now. I don't have any long haul trips until next year, and I'm so relieved, actually. I love what I do so much, but I'm just really happy to be home and in my bed at the end of days,

and I've had three gigs this week, and I did a... university visit day yesterday with Kit, my 17-year-old. Come in a minute. And what can he need me for? He's on a swing. And yeah, so it's just been usual, lots to do, time pool kind of thing. But one of the gigs I sang at on Thursday night was a fundraising ball with cancer

research celebrating what would have been Deborah James' 45th birthday. and Deborah James was one of my guests on the podcast a few years back and you know what an impactful incredible woman she went on to receive a damehood in fact for all the in recognition for all the work she was doing for bowel cancer and hold on down I'm just doing something did you hurt yourself is that from on your bike oh ouch ouch ouchy pouchy that looks sore give it a little suck oh well listen when we get home I'll put some cream and a little plaster on it

Those little cuts. Oh, it's all right, Jess. Those little... Come here, let me give you a cuddle. Come here, it's all right. Let me get home, we'll put a plaster on, okay? Yeah. Okay, good boy.

Look all in the colours of the leaves on the trees, Jess. It's so pretty. That's actually quite a nasty little cut. He's just caught a little bit of skin. I'm sure you're happy to be hearing about that. But yeah, anyway, the point I was trying to make is it was glorious to be seeing Heather, James, Deborah's mum, who also has been a guest in the podcast,

and her husband, Sebastian, and the two kids, Eloise and Hugo, and just, you know, a family who got through, still getting through, something as big as losing her daughter, mother, wife, and the legacy she left. And how, gosh, oh, gosh. Okay, what with your bikes? Yes. Okay, go on then. You can do that.

We don't like to. The swings are too low. Okay, all right, maybe you are. People are on the swings and they're going to take long hand. All right. Let's take the bikes outside then. Sorry, this is a really silly time to do the intro. The point I was trying to make is,

I woke up on Friday morning, I was feeling tired, there were loads of things to sort, there's been some things going a bit wonky this week. And I thought to myself, Deborah would have done anything to have the stresses and strains and busyness of everyday life like I have right now. And honestly, talk about perspective. And it's such a privilege to get to be part of those things

and to get that mindset, you know, redressed. And, yeah, the perspective it offers you. It's pretty magical. So that's giving me a lot of food for thought this week. The other thing that's given me food for thought this week is maybe unexpectedly, actually, but Esther Anson died this week. And it's made me really think about my childhood because my dad used to direct that slide.

and we were always going to Estes, and Childland was like something I was so aware of of my childhood, and it's just been so special to see how impactful a life can make. I suppose we're talking again about legacy, aren't we? But these people who come along and actually do something, I mean, my whole ethos, really, when it comes down to it, aside from the big stuff, like family and, you know, being lucky enough to be creative. But it's really about trying to leave everything a little bit better than you found it, which involves, you know, it seems to motivate so many. of my guests, including Dolly Jones, who's my guest this week.

So Dolly was the editor at Vogue.com and worked at Condé Nast at very high level for over 20 years, overseeing their digital content. So incredibly experienced and has two kids at secondary school age now, 11 and 13, girl 11, boy 13. But she found the nature of going back to work. and how her new skill set as a parent was sort of just not part of the picture when she was talking at work or the stress of the life. She was supposed to, you know, basically be this mother in the outside, but at work pretend that none of that life existed and drop it all so that she could seem like a really efficient worker, even though really so much going on all the time, so stressful, so isolating. So she started speaking to other working women, I suppose, not dissimilar to what the podcast is about, about how they've,

navigated it, the advice they could offer, the tricks and tips that help them get through it all, and just sharing the wealth of knowledge, really. And what I really like is even though it's really easy to talk about the bits that are really hard, and they can be really hard, I like the positivity that comes with sharing the experiences and how actually we say, you know what, we're all doing the best we can, doing a good job, and, and, and, and, I'm Just acknowledging that really and acknowledging all the skills that you suddenly have to develop when you become a parent. You didn't even know you could have. And the juggle and, yeah, just the network, the strength that can come from women sharing their stories.

So, yeah. It's very much on brand for what spinning plates is all about. So this is my chat with Dolly, who's written a book called Leaving the Ladder Down, all about just that, how other women can help support women getting back into the workplace, building on their career, whatever it may be. So yeah, it resonates a lot because it's so many of the themes we've explored in so many of these conversations.

So I'll leave you with her wisdom and all the things she's learned and her own story. And I'll see on the other side. And meanwhile, I can just about see where they are on the bikes. And I have to say, I'm really enjoying this lovely warm weather. It's a nice place to sit on a bench in the park,

surround above all the leaves as they change colour, listening back. So here's the chat with Dolly. See you on the other side. Well, I can't believe we haven't met or spoken before. When I was reading your book, I just kept smiling.

I could feel my cheeks going up because I was like, this book is essentially so much overlap with the conversations I've been having for a last little while. And as we sit down, I noticed you've got a little ladder. Yes.

I suppose in tribute to your book. Well, I was given it. Actually, I was thinking about the title for the book. Quite far into writing it. We had sort of various working titles that were quite dull. And I suddenly found myself writing the phrase leaving the ladder down.

And then I thought, oh, I think I've got a gold ladder charm. My mum had given me a set of gold charms she'd found in an antique market when I was about 18. And there was a ladder to represent my career, because I was already quite sort of ambitious in talking about it all the time. There was an elephant to represent some time I'd spent in India. There was an iron, as in to iron clothes, to represent her, which I always think is an interesting detail. Yeah. A little gold bagpiper to represent my father who blew the bagpipes and various others. Anyway, and I suddenly thought, have they still got that somewhere?

And it was knocking around to the bottom of an old jewelry box. That is adorable, actually. And then I thought, there's the title of the book. And I've wanted ever since. Thank you. Thanks. So there's a story within a story. Yeah, exactly.

And actually, it's an incredibly rich book. Thank you. Well, it is. And it's, I mean, I have no idea how you put it together because it covers so much ground and so many different voices. But it's gathered together very comprehensively. And it would basically be an excellent book to give to. anyone who is actually even just contemplating how parenthood would affect them, even if it's not something, necessarily a path they're going to go down. Because I think, actually, I've met people

who listen to the podcast who have either never had kids for, you know, they wanted to, it didn't happen, or they've chosen not to. And they're curious because it's such a big, a big, you know, life-changing event. And there's a curiosity isn't there about how that might affect you. But particularly if you're standing on the precipice and thinking, I don't know how to do. this and how does life look like on the other side of parenthood when I'm also wanting to be ambitious for myself and work yeah and who I have always been beforehand yes and also the moment you start thinking like that I think you feel so alone and so what was lovely about writing the book that was that whoever I spoke to wherever they were on their career you know path or whatever

profession or whatever kind of background there was so much we all have in common yes but then that doesn't mean that we can assume anything of anybody but there just are all of these kind of threads that everyone was like, oh yes, and so that's why the questions that I asked every single person, there was a kind of, you know, 10 or 12 questions that I started every conversation with. And so whenever I said something like,

you know, and sorry, I'm going to have to approach the subject of guilt, and everyone will go, oh my God, the guilt. Pretty much everybody had the same response and then lots of different responses as we talked about it more. But I loved the idea that anyone, I wanted anyone to be able to pick the book up, open it anywhere and either recognize or really strongly disagree with the various bits that they would come across because it's yeah it's that commonality and and the different experiences i wanted to kind of

hang together yeah and i suppose as well it's it's it's going behind the you know you're the first impression you get of someone and all that invisibility all that stuff that goes on behind closed doors how they're prepping the day how they're keeping on top of child care how they're organizing themselves And what I really like as well is the emphasis is on a reassuring positivity that whatever you're achieving is actually pretty phenomenal. Yes. If you're keeping on top of these things. Because, I mean, we were a sort of similar age.

We're similar with our kids. So you've got a 13-year-old and 11-year-old. And I think, you know, when I had my age-equivalent child, It was very much the time as well of not being very positive about some aspects of motherhood actually. It was all a bit kind of, you know, the sort of sloppy side of it and, oh, you know, let's just get to having Proseca or gin. You know, it was quite sort of, I understand that, you know, scales always need to be recalibrated. But I think it wasn't very much about saying, oh my gosh, we're actually doing a pretty good job here of actually just trying our best to keep on top of everything. Yes, trying our best and doing a brilliant thing.

Well, first of all, if you paid somebody else to do the mothering part of your job, you'd pay them a lot of money and expect them to work really, really long hours and be really well-researched and you'd really be impressed with the new ideas. All the stuff that we're doing every day just as a given as a parent is really phenomenal. If you looked at somebody else doing it, you might be really impressed. But when it's ourselves, we're just like, yeah, but we've just got to get that done because we have kids. And so that's just sort of a given. But yes, I think that that negativity, when I first was going back to work,

I was full-time at Vogue. It was 2012 when I had my first child. And everything I could read was negative. It was sort of, you know, porridge in my hair, stress, relationship failing, child suffering, work suffering, me suffering, unable to lose baby weight, wardrobe just shot. Just everything about my life was going to be kind of subpar from then on. And so I started to try and read around to kind of find some more galvanizing stuff. And I couldn't really find. I could remember, I read one book and it mentioned hemorrhoids in the first couple of pages.

And I was like, oh, no, it's not sexy. You're like, oh, not where I wouldn't need me focus, thanks. And then somebody else wrote, you know, wear flat shoes all the time because you're running around so much. Like, don't wear heels. I mean, fair enough, but also not, no, I don't want to be sort of told what to wear that much. Don't eat carbs. I can't remember, don't eat carbs after 12 or do eat carbs. Anyway, there was some rule about food.

I just was like, no, this is not. I'm not. I don't need that lecture either. I think you at that stage. And then I got back to work. And obviously, there were days when it was, you know, panicky, and I did feel guilt and I did feel, you know, such worry. But the days when it worked, when I did like what I was wearing,

the sun was shining, the tube had worked. Work was going well. Fundamentally, I'd left the house that morning with a child who was well and safe and in childcare that I was happy with. And you had this kind of, I had this surge of sort of euphoria of like, oh my God, this is amazing. And I'm going to go home tonight and he's going to be there. And it was just such a wonderful feeling of capability and hope and excitement about life.

And I just thought I've never heard that spoken about, that sense of achievement. And then the children grow and little by little, they're interested in your work too. And then they get quite excited about your work or their potential because of what they see you doing or the joy they see you experiencing. all couched in a lot of them having joy at home with you and you being with them and the connecting stuff that you do at home. And so it seems to be something, this joy and the potential in it wasn't really ever voiced. And when I did interview these women, you know, from taxi drivers to lawyers to pilots, to actors to whatever they did with themselves, there was always this, when you really start to pick at what they do and what their day-to-day is like,

you would hear this sense of self-worth and excitement and they were so pleased and proud that they'd kept doing it even though at times it had been challenging for whatever many, many different reasons. But there was a sense of, you know, they were pleased, they were proud of having done it and that seemed to me to be something we should be able to celebrate rather than apologise for.

Yeah, no, that's really wonderful. And also I imagine that for a lot of these women, this is when their children have grown up a little bit and they've got the different perspective. Because I think that early parenthood is the most shrouded in this big question mark of, oh my goodness, I've upended absolutely everything. And I don't quite know who I am right now. And I'm also thinking to myself when you're reading that book you were talking about

and it's all about the porridge and the hair and the knotie calves and the frumpy and all this horrible sounding stuff that's going to homogenize and not all the edges off you. There's not many more juxtaposing environments that you're returning to work in than working at Vogue. No, no, just for Lolls on that level, where that whole world is about aspiration and beauty and fashion and glamour and really heading towards something gorgeous and sort of like an elevated version of reality. So it really is very, very opposing. That's what the kind of prevailing narrative was, that it was completely and utterly, you know, two opposite ends of the scale. But actually there's an example I write about it in the book.

When I came back from maternity leave the first time, Kim Kardashian had had their first baby, I think, while I was away, or she was pregnant, who was around that time anyway. And her Instagram was suddenly filled with pictures of presents that people had given her for the new baby impending arrival. And like Phoebe Filo, a very, very hugely cool fashion design of the time. She was designing Celine.

And she'd sent her some booties. So that was super cool, fashion people. And prior to her pregnancy, Kim to Kardashian hadn't really been mentioned by Vogue. She was a bit reality TV. And now she was being invited to the Met Gala and getting presents from Phoebe Filo. And I was like, oh, hang on. So it wasn't the pregnancy that had changed her kind of Vogue reputation. But the fact was now we could see via her Instagram that she was being celebrated as a mother by all these very high-fashioned people.

And I was like, people spend money on their own kids, but they spend money on other people's kids. We need to do Vogue for mothers. We need to do mini-vogue about babies and pregnancy and all the rest of it. And so many people at Condodas said to me, no, you don't. That is, you know, people. And Alex Schulman said that she'd always thought that people who like Vogue don't like babies. That was her. And she likes babies.

She's an incredibly maternal person. She's got a child and stepchildren or whatever. But from a commercial point of view, that was what, you know, how the brand was understood. And I was like, yeah, but every time we write about a model having a baby, because we could read the traffic on Vogue.com. running the website. And so we had the traffic live up on the wall every day in the editorial room. And we could see if you wrote about somebody having a baby and posted a photograph of them, the traffic would go wild. The audience were interested in how models dressed when they were pregnant and how they dressed their babies, albeit this was before really the news

took hold of how bad it is to be on social media the whole time and it's posting all these pictures of people. But this was, yes, another conversation. Yes, the naive early days, exactly. So I was like, A, the audience is interested. B, I can see people spending money here. So I think we can do this. So we did eventually launch MiniVogue online. And it was hugely successful, both commercially and with the audience. And then they re, and then they kind of redressed it and did a section on GQ called GQ Dads and a section on Tatler called Totler.

Because they could just see the commercial potential. But prior to that, everyone was like, I know once you've had a baby, you know, you're off the radar of this kind of both from, an audience point of view and a commercial point of view and you're no longer interesting which is not true in real life no and actually I think very much when you said about vogue doesn't like the vogue readers don't like babies I think also that that ties in with what you were talking about in the book where you're saying about the fact that you felt that you weren't allowed to bring this other world you had to you this motherhood in your new baby and talk about it at work out we're supposed to pretend almost that that hadn't really happened and

So that was kept in another space. But actually, I suppose, as time's gone on, these conversations are opening up. And I think even when I had, so my eldest is 22 now. And when I had him, I didn't really, I couldn't really think of even other pregnant pop stars or seeing them after they've become parents or how you could be a mum that also performed at clubs. I didn't really know what that world would look like. And I've definitely felt part of that kind of thing of having to try and almost pretend that mother. had just hadn't really happened or it was just a separate part of me that wasn't wasn't at all appropriate to bring into that environment which is so extraordinary because it's you know i always say to

people if you you know if you worked in an office and you had an accident you've had a car accident and you broke your leg and you came into the office whenever it was a month later and people would probably say to you you know how are you so glad to see you is your desk in the right place should we move it so that your broken leg isn't sticking out into the corridor you know it would be quite a kind of boring but essential conversation are you comfortable if you come back and after having had a baby, whether or not you've had traumatic birth, whatever, your life is different. But honestly, beyond a possible baby photo, it's just not mentioned in any way.

And they don't have to be huge changes to make, you know, huge flexibility, you know, awkwardness. You just might need a little bit of, you know, dial up the flexibility this way or that way at least have the conversation just to make sure everybody feels comfortable in their new sort of, you know, personal circumstance. But in fact, during the research for the book, I watched the documentary about Paloma Faith, which, by the way, we need a documentary about you, having listened to all your podcasts recently. My God, I want to watch that. But she's going on tour in the documentary, and she wants to take her newborn, obviously, and therefore also take the nanny.

And all of the people working on the kind of finances of the tour are just saying, this is absolutely crazy. Why does she want to take the baby? Why does she want to take the nanny? It's, you know, costing so much. it's just, you know, I mean, I'm paraphrasing, and it's a while ago, I'm not being specifically true to the documentary. No, no, I can't understand what you coming from. But I was thinking, if she can't take the baby, you don't really have her. Like, she's just given birth within, you know, weeks or whatever. And if you have the baby there and you have the nanny there and she's

relaxed about the child and the child's well-being and the child's care, you get the full performance from her. Yeah. But she will be so depleted as a human being, because she is a human being and part of being human is having children. And it was just so odd that it became a financial conversation and had absolutely no, you know, didn't take any notice of the reality of the human experience. Which is a really sad thing actually because I suppose in the world of music I've always thought, aren't I so lucky that I can, if I bring my, if I brought my babies to work, I already went, oh, a baby, that's nice. Yes, yeah. And I could kind of shape my world a little bit around them and actually I did take my youngest came on on tour with me I went back to the tour

when he was about I think he was about 16 weeks so about four months and I I felt so clever I'd come off stage and there'd be this little little bubba waiting on the tour bus and a little moses boss I was like this is the life it was really I found it really um halcyon actually and I think of those memories it was a real sort of peak happy moment I don't know if I would have had the confidence to it at my first I think it helped that I was older I was aware that you know this was my fifth baby, so I was a little bit more, you know, used to what I needed and what worked for me. But also for Paloma in that situation, I suppose, that's, that's, I feel like that's extra sad because actually in that situation, she's actually the boss. That's actually her.

It is all her and all those people questioning her choices are being paid by the industry she's created. If she's not there, then they're not there either. Even if there's a really cynical choice, it's really daft. Yes. And also it's really sad because I always thought that if you're creative, you can kind of take, advantage of that world a little bit and say this is what works for me. I'm really curious to know the 10 or 12 questions that you asked each guest when you were speaking to them for the book. Gosh, I can't remember specifically now. I mean, first of all, I mentioned guilt earlier and I was

determined writing the book that I wasn't going to mention guilt just out of principle because it really annoys me. It's not to avoid going. Actually, I think it's the longest chapter. And weirdly, there's a bit where you talk about, I think it's called something like a book about mother, what is it about really it's not guilt guide the good mothers yes yes the good the working mothers guide but you thought it kept it saying working mother's guilt i know when i read it i also thought it said it even though i just read it so that's by um day mary beard who's you know professor of classics at cambridge and is you know has done all kinds of incredible work and that she early in her career is out of print now wrote this book the good working mother's guide because she couldn't see around her any

working women with kids. And so, yes, I found it. So I tried to interview her for the book, but she was travelling, promoting her latest book, so she couldn't do it. But her PA said she says, try and find a copy of her book. It was written 30 years ago.

And what's worrying about it is that so much of what she's written is absolutely still true today. I knew you're going to say that. But I found it in the library, and it has a library sticker over the end of the title on the spine of the book. So on my desk, I kept seeing it,

and I kept seeing Working Mother's guilt. Oh, no, hang on, it's guide. But so that was a big conversation, both about some people don't feel guilty. Yeah. Which is so brilliant. It's so good.

It's so free. And also it helps, doesn't it? It actually helps alleviate your own weighty little heavy boots. Yes, exactly. And why don't they and how don't they? And some people felt guilty then for not feeling guilty because they were like, why are you asking me? Why are you so interested in guilt when I don't feel guilty?

Oh God. You know, then I made them feel guilty. That was awkward. And then some people said, well, they kind of investigated it and like, you know, I think, hang on, I'm feeling guilty. What does that mean? And actually it was a red. flag to just change the strategy a bit of how they're living. So maybe clear the diary and just

focus on having a weekend, you know, with your kids and just nothing else or whatever. So that was quite helpful. There are practical things you can do rather than just be sunk by guilt. And the whole discussion about whether it's guilt or shame. And if it's shame, that tends to be it's because it's a sort of cultural, the cultural expectations surrounding motherhood and the kind of bind that you can feel, I certainly felt that I'm a rubbish mother because I'm working and I'm rubbish at working because I'm a mother. Yeah. And also just practically how it feels. I remember standing outside Vogue House really early on crying on the phone to my husband going, I just feel dreadful, guilty. And he said it's so unfair because we leave the house every morning together. And we know

he's safe and happy and you love your work and I love my work. And I don't carry this guilt with me. It's so unfair that you do. It's about something outside of us that is doing this. It's not, you know, it's not yours to carry. That's very wise. Yes, it was good. I think he was in a panic like what you're doing don't give up your job um but uh so yes and then and very much i talked about the practicalities of it because when people are asked about working and parenting often they say oh sorry this is probably really boring and i was like no no it's not really boring it's really fascinating you're an officer in the army and i want to know how how and when you got back to work and how how you decided on nursery versus nanny versus you know mother-in-law whatever and

to really unpick the sort of details of, okay, so if you did that, if you changed from nursery to mother-in-law, why, what happened, what went wrong? And so when you did, you know, persuade people they weren't being boring and I wanted to know, it would pour forth from them, all of this detail and all of these emotional experiences that they've had about quite practical experiences. And then it would become really funny and really emotional. And also one woman who was in the army, I think I put in the book She's the first woman who cried in an interview When we were on Zoom, it was during lockdown

And she had had a little boy who was two and a half And then twin boys And her husband was away in Afghanistan at war And then she had to go back to work really quickly Because she'd taken masses of time off When she was pregnant Massively leave early Because she was so big she couldn't fit in her uniform

Had the twins Starved herself to get back into her uniform Back to work with these three small boys One of whom who kept getting very ill and she started to sob as she was talking and I said, shall we just, do you want to just stop?

Should we just wait and, you know, take a break or do another day, whatever? And she said, no, no, no, no, it's doing me good. I don't think I've ever talked about it before. And her husband popped around the camera and said, I'm here. I think it's really doing her good, please keep going. And also I've made her a cup of tea, don't worry.

That she'd never talked about it. And actually, it was really traumatic what she'd been through and she was saying, if only she'd spoken to the army, because she was hugely well-trained, and they really, really valued her, but they didn't know she was going through this kind of hellish time at home. And she'd only had gone to HR and said, look, just give me a year's grace.

I need to get myself back on track, emotionally, mentally, physically, in the whole thing. Then they would have probably had her in the army a lot longer, but as it was, she ended up leaving and always slightly regrets it. Oh, that's such a sad idea of that loneliness she must have felt carrying all of that. Again, when masses of us are, but we don't necessarily talk about it, because there's this sort of apology because we should be able to do it, you know, without question.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm just trying to think as well of what the most practical ways. I mean, I suppose some of this is generational and what we feel we're allowed to share. Some of it is to do with basic practical structuring, just needs more transparency. I love the idea when you're talking about how you, would sometimes act as a mentor within Condon asked for other women to come and speak to you about it. I think something like that sounds like a really great thing should be everywhere. Maybe it is in more places now. I hope so. I'm not really too aware of how it works in the corporate world in that regards. I should have looked that all up about government policy. That's the biggest piece of advice I give people because they often say having written the book,

you know, what would you say? And I say, search people out who've done it in whichever industry you work. Oh, definitely, 100%. And it might be, it might feel awkward, it might feel that you're kind of asking personal questions. But these questions, you know, are the ones you will be asking of yourself. Yeah. So, excuse me. So I would, you know, be brave because when you do ask people these questions, which sound boring and practical or over personal, the stories pour forth.

Because it is a huge, huge experience people are going through that they don't generally get asked about. And also, you know, expect to hear. stories that you will be really impressed by and want to celebrate. There's one woman in the book who's a journalist, and she was when she was pre-having children, she'd get into work every day really early and raring to go. And her editor would come in and say, oh, my God, thank God I can have a break now. I've just put three kids in three different schools, and thank God I can have coffee now. And this young journalist was thinking, why do you want to rest?

Like I am, you know, raring to go. And she said it wasn't until I had kids that I realized you run a marathon before you get to work in the morning. And I thought, if she had run a marathon, you'd be like, God, you're incredible. Like, where and how? What did you eat? And why are you doing it? And who's sponsoring you? But this is a marathon.

It's really fun and it's really skillful and tenacious and energetic that we're doing. But we get to work and pretend it didn't happen. Yeah. And I think they're good stories to tell. Oh, there's such good stories to tell. And as you say, I find each and every one of them fascinating. And the more people I speak to about. how they've navigated, you know, pursuing a career, raising a family, the simultaneous thing,

where it's, where it's work, where it's struggle, the more you walk past people on street, and I think everyone here has got something that would be fascinating. You know, it doesn't have to be the same conversation, but there's everybody's carrying something. Yes. And sometimes it's so unexpected. It's someone where they'll, as you say, or just pour out of them, you'd think, I would never have. You would never know. I understood that you've been through all that.

There's a girl I used to see on the, a woman I used to see on the school gate. And she was often there, and she was always had the most glamorous cakes at the bake sale, homemade, really elaborate, really, really beautiful. And I thought, you know, obviously she doesn't work. She's one of those brilliant mothers, and I felt massively sort of less than around her because I was working full time, and my cakes were, you know, bought from Tesco's on the corner or whatever. And she, then I met her at a children's party. We'd never really spoken about sort of good morning.

And then at this children's party, I ended up chatting with her. And she's a forensic psychiatrist and works in prisons with, you know, criminals of the worst possible frightening kind, working out why they did what they did and whether they can be helped and a fascinating, difficult, extraordinary job. My assumption, because of her cakes had been that she didn't have a professional job at all, and it really taught me that, you know, whatever you see at the school gate, you can't make assumptions. Everybody in their gym kit has a story to tell they might be working or they might be jimming or they might be doing neither. And so that was nice about the book as well to just, it's always. It's all. It's all.

was a reminder that people are going through, you know, you have no idea. You really don't. And also it's made me think about the fact that sometimes women can perpetuate these situations. And actually, the more you open up, the more you can start to, you know, put down those walls. Because I think some of it comes out of, you know, we've been taught that we do need to worry about our jobs when we come back from having a baby. And, you know, there's so much talk about, oh, you know, you're not going to be as effective, you're efficient, you're not going to be as focused, you're not going to be able to be as flexible. And I think sometimes we probably don't help each other as much, especially when you're young

and in the throes of like that bit where you are climbing the ladder. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I'm sure at Vogue you could see that some of it was being not helped by women actually who were also going home to this other life too. Absolutely. It's extraordinary how we can be unhelpful. There was one person at Vogue who, so I went back full time, but the working hours in the office were 930 till 5.30. And I asked if I could go in at 9 and leave at 5 so that my, that gave my nanny.

I had a nanny in the very early days that gave her time to get home. So I just wanted to shift it by half an hour each end of the day. So I didn't really see that as flexibility. I also got in by about 8 o'clock every morning and worked all weekends and whatever. So, you know, I didn't feel in any way that I was over-asking. This woman mentioned my inadverted commas flexible working every time she saw me. Which was just, well, you know, what problem do you have? She had children.

She was of a different generation. And it always struck me that, you know, how unhelpful that could be and how we have the power to be unhelpful or helpful. But also, I think people are so nervous to admit, you know, their own mistakes. And one of the funny questions in the book was, what do you, you know, what's one of your worst parenting mistakes? And people would say... I bet that was a rich topic. It was so good. But people would normally say, oh, no, I can't really think of anything.

So then I would have to say, okay, I'll tell you mine. And mine is really bad. So it's funny bad. And it was when my daughter was at nursery. She was about three. Have you? Yes, you'll remember it. No, I do know.

Please tell her. It is great, though. It's so awful. It's so awful. It still makes my stomach kind of cringe. They gave her a questionnaire, and she couldn't read, obviously, all right. So they'd asked her the questions verbally. and then they had written down her answers,

and the questions were like, what's your favorite food, pizza, which was embarrassing, what's your favorite toy, iPad, which was embarrassing. And question seven was, tell me something mummy always says to you. As I was reading it on the way of nursing, I thought, oh, you know, I love you, sweet dreams, darling. And she'd written, she'd said,

you can talk to me when I finished my call. Oh, my God. I mean, I just died. And I thought, gosh, I haven't ever said that to her. I've never said that her, but clearly I have because she's three. and she's remembered it. Anyway, funny enough, I mentioned it on a podcast the other day

as one of my worst fails. And then I'd also talked in the book to Julia Samuel, who I know, you know, psychotherapist, and she'd talked about the power of repair. So no matter how we muck up our children, whatever mistakes we make, as long as they grow older, we can allow them to give us feedback in a way

and we don't cry and shout and scream and deny everything. You know, then hopefully you can say, I'm sorry that that really upset you. I may not necessarily do it differently if I had the opportunity to you now, but I'm glad you've told me and on we go. So I said to my daughter the other day, she's now 11, look, I feel I should apologise to you. I'm so sorry, I said this. I don't remember saying it's just so awful. I must have said it so often.

And she was like, oh, mommy, for goodness sake, like I was three. You probably said it once that morning. You probably didn't say it with a cross voice. Just forget it, you know, almost like you're being irritated, you're being needy. But the funny thing was I was then on a podcast the other day. and there was feedback underneath a clip of it, talking about the questionnaire horror on Instagram, and one woman had written,

God, this woman's awful about me. She, not only has she, it's really nice, not only has she been so foul, I'm paraphrasing, to her three-year-old, but she's also now, you know, being so needy to her 11-year-old and cutting the 11-year-old to solve the problems. And I was like, no, no, I was trying to do what Julia Samuel advised me.

I don't think there's any reasoning with that individual. No, but. You know, people are mean to each other. Oh, they can be so mean. But if we can all be brave enough or lighthearted enough to laugh at our mistakes and really understand that we're not terrible humans if we've made a mistake. And then, you know, we're all making them and it's okay. Everybody can move on.

I know, because I think, you know, so much of it as well is when you start out as a parent, you feel that there's a sort of another version of you out there somewhere who's just nailing it all a little bit better than you. And I think that's where that's where that judgment. judgment can come from, can't it? So that lady with the amazing cakes at the school. Yeah, you think, oh, it's you. You're the one who's just that bit more present, that bit more on it. I mean, at least you bought cakes from Tesco.

I don't even supply. Really? I mean, God, judgment. I know. Bad. But I think as I've got, as my children have grown, I've got more confident in the areas where I think this is the thing, areas of parenting. I feel like I'm good at. And if I'm not good at that bit, then either someone else can fill in or we're just going to let it go.

because you can't be all things to all people. But I think what you said about the advice about finding other people who've done the early years parenting and ask them loads of questions is such a good bit of advice. And that's exactly what happened with me, that my hair and makeup lady friend, Lisa, I basically would just talk to her every time we're getting ready for any work, I would just ask a question after question about how she found raising her kids who are now in their 30s. So then they would have probably been, I don't know, approaching 10, maybe around there. And it was fascinating and so reassuring.

And nothing beats that and how the generosity of a woman with that experience, like the way they want to reassure you that you're going to be all right. And the good stuff and what to let go of and how not to beat yourself up about things. It was such a good thing to cling on to. Were you nervous of asking her? Did you feel you were kind of asking her questions that were overly personal? Not really, because I think, I think, I think that's kind of why I started the podcast in a way. I work with so many working women

who also happen to be mothers and the conversation would drift there just all the time. It's part of our lives. It's part of our fabric. And I guess because I don't work in a clock on clock off environment, you know, there's the bit where I'm on stage or doing the job. But most of my work is all of the parenthesis of all the other stuff that happens, all the punctuation marks of the hanging around, the getting ready, the rehearsing and all of that. So all the, those conversations happen all the time. And yeah, it just invariably heads that way. I mean, I think that asking, perhaps I was nervous, I don't know why I was nervous of asking the kind of older corporate professional women about their kids. It just felt, you know, that thing on a, when you see people on a panel,

I don't know how many boring corporate panels, you've been to, I've been to a few, and you're not really supposed to ask the one token woman on the panel how she does the juggle or has it all or balances, you know, life and family or work and family. And I agree with that when there are three men talking about business and the one, hopefully not token woman, is there, as tends to be the stereotype. But on the other hand, if you do get an opportunity to ask a woman about how she has done it, there are fascinating insights. And some of them are really practical.

Like one woman said to me, Charmadeen read in the book, she's a brilliant entrepreneur. And she said, oh, I always just take a couple of handfuls of Lego and put them in a little bag in my handbag. And so that's how I keep my child entertained if we're in a restaurant as opposed to just giving him. Of course, you and your Lego. Amazing. And I've done it a few times, especially if there are several children there

and they have conversations about how high they go. Instead of giving them all a phone, which obviously no judgment, but sometimes it's nice not to you or sometimes it's nice to do so. Or another woman who works in finance and she has a set, I love this one, she has a separate wash bag, you know, makeup bag in her bathroom, a family-sized one, with two. toothbrushes, toothpaste, you know, mosquito spray, everything you need for a holiday. So when they go on holiday, she just takes that bag.

She doesn't have to scrabble around. I need to start again. I know. That makes it so much easier, except I borrow from it when we're at home. And then when I do take it on holiday, of course, we're missing toothpaste. That's annoying. But as a concept, I thought that was genius. And it's nice to hear it from people who are doing it rather than parenting experts in inverted

comments who might write a book about, but not actually. live it. So I loved that. My life is full of people who I spoke to in the book and kind of advice from them. So I wanted to give that to other people. Yeah.

And actually with the topic of the book in mind, how did you find the process of writing the book in comparison to when you were in Condonast in terms of how much of your life it took over and how you navigated your kids and their demands? Were you working? Did you go somewhere to write? No.

No. I was, I was, I'd left Condonast, I'd set up a consultancy, the book was sort of always germinating. So it was a condonast for 20 years, is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a long time in that world, were you trepidatious about leaving? Yes, terrified of leaving. I'd been, so I went back to Vogue after my first baby, worked for a couple of years, and then I was promoted from Vogue to help run Condonast Digital as a whole. Which is presumably a vast, moving very fast, the industry, like, booming.

Yeah, it was a huge, yeah, it was wonderful. loved it. I was promoted when I was pregnant by a man who didn't have children. He was younger than me. And the experience of him going, and I was like, I'm six months pregnant. I'm about to disappear for a bit. He was like, I don't care. I just need you to do what you did to vote to all of the other websites. That's very cool, actually. He was amazing. But other people were like, what? Why is he promoted you? You're pregnant. You're about to go away. So I thought, oh, there's something in this. People weren't disapproving, but they were very surprised. So then I did nearly four years at that job

And it wasn't as fun as being editorial and vogue had been It was very corporate and by which time the children were sorted nearing four and six And I wanted a change So then I would set up a consultant left with trepulation, set up a consultancy Then lockdown was looming And I'd been in touch with Harper Collins about the book idea So as we as we locked down I signed the contract with Harper Collins And thought, brilliant, I'm going to write a book like everyone else in lockdown

But I'm going to be paid for mine And so then I started the interviewing process And it was and it was writing it was absolutely hellish Writing a book is horrible It's a lonely And B you've got this, I have this pressure to I felt it was a really good idea And I had my readers in mind

Who are all women who I wanted to reach in a place Just when they needed it Yes So I didn't want to get it wrong and let them down Then I was talking to all of these different Mostly women And they were pouring forth stories of their lives Fun, wonderful, traumatic, challenging

and I was going to cut them into little bits of quotes all over the book, which I thought I'm soon. That's why I say it's very, very rich. I mean, the names, that's, that's why I love where you've pulled, you've curated these conversations into these different zones. But they, that must have, yeah, the token of such a long time firstly, but also how, did you sort of write a list of like jobs that would be interesting? Or was it people saying, oh, actually, you should speak to this person, a bit of both. First of all, we had this unplastered wall in a room that we were saving up to have a new bathroom. and I just wrote across it, you know, actors, medical law, all of the different industries and who I already knew or who I knew that knew somebody there. And then everyone I interviewed, I wanted to, you know, that they would say, oh my God, everyone said, you've got to speak to this person, you've got to speak to this person.

And I wanted it to be really properly, properly diverse, properly inclusive, having worked at Condonast in those days for 20 years, that was not my network was not a diverse one. So I didn't want it to just be the same story sort of told and told again. So that was quite an interesting aspect because if you want to know, say, I want a disabled person or I want a trans woman or I want a black lawyer, can you just ask that outright? Is it rude? Do I want to – you know, I felt was it delicate. But it was so wonderful because actually what you do is just ask. And people are like, oh my God, yes, you've got to me this person. You've got to me – and that was a real lesson. Again, that reticence to ask what might be perceived as a sort of awkward question. It's just like, no, no, it's just a question. And it's a really – the answer is really important. It needed to be diverse. So that was a joyful aspect of it. Yeah, it's quite similar sometimes to how I approach for a podcast guest as well. Is it? Yeah, because I want all representations of motherhood.

So I'll think, okay, I want to make sure people feel represented and it's not just a, yeah, I didn't want to just sit down opposite loads of women like me. No, exactly. And also you learn so much from people who have had different experiences from me. That's the whole point. And then also it's that, you know, that which unites us, that all that common ground, all that stuff you share. Yes, yes.

There's such power in that. And actually one of the people who's spoken to is the lady who delivered a couple of my children. Oh, was it? Yeah, Gubi. Gubi, yeah. She's amazing. Yeah, and so hearing her talk about it was really good as well, how she was, because she's like such a powerhouse of a woman. Incredible.

When I was unwell with my first, she was absolutely brilliant. She was one of those women, you're like, I trust you. Yeah, yes, I can imagine. I can imagine. That's so nice. So hearing her talk about how she tried to keep going and keep her milk production up when she went back to work. and I think someone she went, who was she went to see? And they were like, no, no, just stop that.

With your job, that's not going to work. No. And it just stopped her guilt with that. Like, okay, I can let that go. But even somebody of her stature in the sort of parenting, all the knowledge she has, she felt that guilt and she had that same challenge. But again, the conversation with her was huge and wide, and they were doing a huge report at the time investigation into the experience of black women

giving birth in the UK and how appalling that situation is for so many. And so I didn't want to cut that out of the book. I mean, it was about five times longer. Sometimes it was really loudly. So I wanted to include all of that. You know, the book was so much longer at first. And Harpochlon is like, no, cut it, cut it, cut it. Because it's such an important conversation.

But, I mean, it's worthy of a book of its own, that particular conversation. So there were important aspects of the book that I want, you know, of the whole conversation that I wanted to include. But you have to cut it out. So I felt that I was doing even her disservice then. because that wasn't what this book was about. But that felt. But this conversation's so worth having. And I just love the fact that I don't know what it is,

that there should be a word for it, the sort of desire to help reassure, empathise with other people going through an experience and sort of be the voices you wish you'd had. It's quite a drive, isn't that? Yes. You know, to open that conversation and to give a space to anybody.

who's curious or wants some reassurance or wants to know what to leave with, whether it'd be the practical, the emotional, all of it. It's such a strong feeling when you have that urge to have those conversations out there. It was funny writing the book and I would be banging my head against the desk going, this is taking too long and it's a nightmare and I wasn't, you know, immediately earning money and I was worried about that. And my husband, who then had all the pressure to pay the mortgage, said, you know, you wanted to write it because you wanted to help somebody like you at the time and he said just

you know if you write it and you help one person that's enough like stop thinking about hundreds of people obviously he's kind of hoping it does best yes just one so I was hoping hope it was successful that but then now I get

amazing messages from people on LinkedIn or on Instagram saying oh thanks I've just read this bit and this resonated or whatever and it's so amazing when you think oh it just landed with them right when it needed to and it's you know that person

and one woman in fact a an employer got in touch with me and said that she had given the book to an employee of hers who was going on her second maternity leave and she said look if you get time read it and then give me a call

to let's talk about how you want to handle your retirement or whatever so the person on maternity leave rang or set up a call and said okay I've read it and I want to talk Oh I love that as an idea for someone who's got someone about to go on maternity leave

what a clever way to have that conversation without traipsy and awkwardness and feeling like you're my asking questions that are too personal but just saying here's a book book look through this and whatever topics it raises that be relevant to me bring it back to me. Yes, exactly. It was brilliant. So she said, but the employee cried on the call and said,

I wish I'd talked to you before I left about being promoted. I really want to be promoted, but I felt that going on maternity leave meant that you'd think that I wasn't really, you know, focused on my role anymore or promotion or whatever. So they had a really apparently very robust conversation about some of the things that the book threw up. And she's being given a promotion to return. So it's like if that's, so that's helped. So what that's my one person. I helped her so fine. I'm sure it's more than one. And I think also that the nice thing sometimes about a project

is that sometimes it unveils to you as things progress more of maybe what was the some of the other reasons you didn't even know why you're doing it, but it led you somewhere. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm sure there's new paths that have come as a result of the book being published and places it'll take you.

And also I was wondering when you were talking to the women when they were saying, you know, they were talking about positive, with positivity about this the unbelievable time they put into, you know, furthering their learning or their pursuit with their jobs whilst also navigating the practicalities and all of the emotional turmoil of new motherhood. When they talked about positivity, it was like, did you notice it was quite often people where their kids had reached past a certain age where they can look back and they've kind of,

because I think sometimes with, you know, all the talk about the juggle, it's very, it's usually fixates on the early years. which obviously is the most, the biggest life change. But I think if you can weave into it all the good stuff that lies in the future about the way that your kids can respond to you and how you can grow as a mother when you've actually kept that space for yourself and kept ambitious and done your thing, whatever works for you. But I think if you can weave that in, it's so helpful.

Because otherwise we get so stuck with thinking about the sort of nought-to-five-year-old and whether you're getting that bit right. Is that really thinking about what lies later on? Yes. It can be really wonderful. Exactly. And I, well, I, yes, there are both because there are older women in there. There's an Alison Hunter who's a lawyer.

And she, what was lovely is, you know, she'd taken, I think she's taken an eight or nine year break, sort of accidentally. She had one baby and then was about to go back and then another baby turned up and then something else happened and another baby turned up, whatever it was. And then she eventually went back and she said, you know, she felt guilty about this and guilty about that. and that bit was chaos and this bit was wonderful. And all lovely anecdotes about, you know, experiences with her children, mixed with anecdotes about how much she's loving her work. And then I think all three of her children are now studying law. So she's like, I couldn't have got it that wrong if they've all, you know,

decided to go kind of the same way. But she looks back with such, you know, amusement at some of the chaos. And, you know, very pragmatic about the challenges and, you know, would she have done differently, what she would, how she might have changed things. But yes, I liked the kind of long-termism of looking back. And also talking to people right in the thick of it because they're talking to, you know, employers who aren't being helpful. And so how they, you know, what kind of conversations they need to be having or they wish they had had recently so that people could almost be influenced or learn from that in real time as well as just know that, yes, in the future, you're not going to look back and regret everything. It's, you know, you're going to be okay fundamentally as long as you can.

But you have to, I think I finish off in the book saying you do have to keep an eye on yourself. You do have to remember who you are and what you love. And, you know, I sometimes say, and it sounds a bit woo-woo, but I think, you know, our own identity, once we're having babies and working in all of the things that we're, whether it's paid work or not, our identity is like a little candle flame and it gets really buffeted by all of these different things that we're doing. And fundamentally, you just have to, you know, keep your eye on that little flame and make sure that you're aware of it. so that when it has time, you can then, you know, look after it a little bit more. Yeah. Because otherwise, you know, you can get lost and, you know, my children now are about to go to school, a secondary school, both of them will be, by the end of the week.

And I can feel that that flame is, you know, going to have a little bit of attention. And it's a thrill, and I'm so glad that I've been able to keep it just in mind all these years. That's a lovely analogy. And actually, yeah, how does it feel to be on the brink of that? And have you got a plan of what you want to do next? What's been surprising is they get to the end of secondary school, which obviously, I'm sorry, primary school, which obviously you'll know, and they start to take themselves to school.

And all of a sudden, that's quite a lot of time in your day that you're not doing a school run. Which can't feel quite strange, actually, because it is quite nice to be wanted sometimes. Oh, yes, I definitely still would want to be wanted. But I suddenly have an hour in the morning that I didn't have before. So I thought, great, I'll get straight to my desk. A whole hour. A whole hour. And I started to work really early.

I thought, no, no, no, and I turned 50 at Christmas. So my present to myself was piano lessons, which is embarrassing talking to you because I'm literally very bad. But there's a piano right behind you, knock yourself out. No, no, no, definitely not. That's when I would die. But I have... Maybe it's how we can end of the conversation.

Just interpret our chat on the piano. Happy birthday, really badly I can do. Oh, my God, I'm literally blushing. I'm glad I'm plastic. That's a compliment. But I now, they leave, and I practice my piano very badly for 20 minutes. It's so soothing. And here's to learning something new.

Yes. Not celebrated enough, not encouraged enough. So many of things we do, we just sort of plateau. Like that was me by the time I was 15. I can't do that very well. Done. Yeah, done. But actually pursuing something and doing something, learning something.

And it's humiliating, which is also quite good for me. I mean, I'm so bad at it. But I love it. And it's totally distracting. I feel like I've, you know, been for a run and had a glass of wine and meditated. and just makes me really good. So it's like, yes, that's, you know, and my little identity flame is being fed.

I love that. I actually don't think it's at all embarrassing as a concept. I think it's lovely. I'm all for her. I've got a girlfriend who's just started doing tap dancing lessons. Actually, another friend is just doing piano lessons as well. She's done her grade one, actually. She started last year.

I feel even more humiliated. Well, no, she's a year ahead of you. Maybe two years, actually. Let's give it another year. But no, I'm all for it. I think the flame idea, it can burn brighter, more easily if you keep open to new experiences and curious, about the world around you, yes, but also about yourself. Yes. It's good to be intrigued by yourself.

Yes. Yeah, exactly. There's so much of life left to live. There's so much to do. And you're allowed to have a sense of yourself and look after yourself when we're giving out so much, you know, having children and work and always looking out for other people. You're allowed. it's good to remember that you're allowed to just think, you know, who am I and what do I want? And one person said, you know, about the book, oh, is this, you know, it's just for really hardcore career women.

And I said, no, not at all. You don't, you know, it's not for women who have to go back to work. I'm not saying that. It's if you want to go back to work, this is how some people have done it. And some people in the book haven't gone back. Or they've had huge career breaks, which is, you know, can be hugely nerve-wracking to then get back into the workplace if you want to. But everybody's doing it differently. But whether you go back to paid work or you don't or whatever you do,

that sense of who you are and what you might want is sometimes one that's easy to lose sight of. Absolutely, and that's again one of the things I love about these conversations is some people, yeah, they had a baby and they almost like put them on their back and just keep going. Other people, it's cataclysmic and throws lots of things into relief and they maybe do something completely different after feeling quite lost for a while after it, actually.

I think it can turn everything on its head. And you don't know exactly this new version of yourself. You almost have to find which bits of you to sort of chisel back in again. Yeah. Definitely I felt like that. It kind of knocked me for six in some ways. The first, or every time.

No, definitely the first for sure. The second, not as much, but no, the first, at 100. I mean, I had quite a long break as well because I had my first one, then I didn't have another five years because I think I just took me that long just to kind of get my head around on Earth that just happened. I mean, I love the idea of being a mum, but I just didn't quite recognize myself for a little minute. So I had to kind of find my way back. But I think my confidence in that has got better as I've got older.

So when I had my later babies, I found my way back to me quicker. But I'm very impressed with anyone who seems to get there faster than that because I just didn't feel like I could. It's extraordinary. Some people literally, and I thought I would, you know, bounce out of the labour ward straight back to the office. And some people literally almost do that. Yeah. And I absolutely didn't do that. But I – and it's a tricky one because I want people to – so when –

When I had my first team and somebody was pregnant for the first time and I hadn't had a baby and I said to her, I don't know how to talk to you about this because I don't want to overstep them out, but I want to be supportive. So how should we play it? And she was like, I have no idea. It was her first baby. So I was like, okay, well, hold that thought. And then she went to have a blood test and she came back to the office and she nearly fainted at my desk. And so that was a good opportunity because I just said, let's get you down onto the floor, but you're head between your knees. And I sat down on the floor next to her and said, right, I think now we need to have the conversation.

and how are we going to, what do you want, how do you want to do the maternity cover? What, you know, what are your thoughts? I'll just ask any question for this next five minutes. And if I get it wrong, you just tell me, you know, because I thought we've got to be honest. But some people don't want to talk, they don't want to talk openly.

It does feel intimate and it does feel like something private and for outside of the office. So it's one size is never going to fit all in this. But I wish for a time when the conversation is one that we don't have to feel awkward about. It is part of being human, just like you need, you know, toilets at work for people. You also need to have conversations about the practicalities of parenting at work. And then that's the least interesting part.

You know, it's just the practicalities. And then we can all get on with doing what we do. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what I love this as well. It's about firstly about this sort of reframing, the idea of keeping aware of all the positives that come along with parenthood, all the amazing qualities and skill sets that it really, you know, your resilience, your ability to pivot, to problem solve.

There's just so many things happening all the time in your brain. And as you say, that's a marathon before the days even really started. And I think there's that, but I also think, yeah, the practical of the conversations that need to happen at work. And actually, it can benefit whoever you are because everybody's got a world and a life outside of work. But we have to be able to credit each other, being able to be really quite across things. things and you're allowed to have those things sitting alongside so they you know that that's not going to get too impacted so that you can function really well when you're working yeah yeah safe in the knowledge that that's in one space i can dedicate myself because i've been allowed to

work from nine till five and then i can go home and then i go home actually i interviewed the guy who promoted me for the book but i don't i think we cut him eventually because the book was just too long and i said you know why did you why when everyone when so many people were being sort of you know surprise that you were hiring me or promoting me at that stage. Why weren't you worried about the pregnancy? And he said, because everybody's got stuff going on. You know, some people have mental health issues. Some people have parents.

They're looking after. Some people have all kinds of stuff. The fact that you might leave occasionally early because your nanny had got ill wasn't really interesting. You were coming back the next day. And it was such a simple answer. It just wasn't complicated. And I thought, yes, that attitude would be able to be able to.

I really appreciate that way of thinking. Yes. Yeah. And it's true. It's true. Exactly. Yeah. I also love the bit of advice you give and as a more practical bit, but I hadn't even,

it never occurred to me. And I thought it was so smart. The idea of almost doing a practice run of going back to work before the day comes when you do go back to work in terms of what it feels like to leave your child with someone, to do the commute, to get outside the building, to get yourself ready, and to all that stuff. I thought that's such a clever thing. I would never have thought of it. But I thought I was really a really great.

great bit of advice for just easing yourself back into that mindset if you've kind of, you know, you want to get the shoes back on and the shirt and you haven't done it for a while. Play the role sort of thing. Play the role, exactly. I mean, that came from a place of terror. I was terrified of going back to work, even though I really wanted to go and always plan to and loved my job. And I remember going to see nurseries with my son when he was strapped to me and I was

still breastfeeding him and I went to nurseries. I mean, honestly, I felt like I was being asked to, you know, I don't know, abandon him forever and I remember that and I remember thinking God the last time I felt like this was when just after my dad died my anxiety was so high and for me a little bit later on we went to look at nurseries again I was still on my energy leave and I was no longer breastfeeding for me that had a very you know changed my hormonal emotional state

and it's not obviously the same for everybody but um yes I was much more pragmatic pragmatic and less anxious about nurseries once I wasn't feeding um but just so that you know the the level of terror were so high I wanted to practice and just make sure I wasn't crying hysterically in the loo on the first day. But that's what always surprises me as well, the amount of people who call me now or write me about the book and say that they're terrified of going back to work, that word terrified about going back to a place of work that you've done a million times. You don't need to be terrified. And if you were treated like this was welcome and normal

and you're allowed to ask for what you need, then that would take the terror away. It really would, but also maybe a kind of process, as you say, like maybe you do the practice yourself and then maybe there's like an easing back in, you know, like anything really. They just get yourself back into the mindset, back into the routine. It's a big, big deal. And also it's that feeling of like that, that little bubble bits over and I can't go back to that. And now whatever comes next, I've just strapped myself in and I'm stuck with that. Yeah. So as you said, again, in your book, like changing your mind if it's not working.

That's the absolute key piece of advice. Keep yourself front and center like that. Yes. Keep yourself. Exactly. You can change your mind. And also, it is a big thing that you're taking on. If it was a marathon, people would be excited for you. If we look upon it as something triumphant. Yeah, yeah, you're going to do that. That's exciting. How are you going to do it? Everybody does it slightly differently. What are your strategies? But there's so much kind of apology in it that we don't talk and therefore we don't investigate the different possibilities of how to do it. But then people can applaud you and be excited for you rather than like, oh God, I was the first, we did a, you know, an NCT group when you are introduced to people in the. area having babies at the same time and I didn't have any of us or something and I was the only one of us going back to work full time and I was the first one going back. Oh. And God, and we all went for a goodbye lunch before I went back to work on a Sunday.

And I felt, I mean, such shame. I can remember walking back just thinking, God, I'm just a terrible human being and all of this is going to go so wrong. And I should have been, or I could have been, you know, dressing it up differently and going, no, this is exciting. This is, this is a triumphant. Yeah, but that would have been a lot for you to take on. at that place, I think, because you are, so there's part of you that does feel, you are questioning things, aren't you? Especially just sat around a table with all these other people still holding their little bubbles, and you're thinking, oh, I'm about to, yeah, what am I doing? And I think that is, that is the thing. So much of it is so bespoke, and you are at a point where you are

vulnerable and you do question yourself and you do feel a bit conflicted. Yes. And it's always hard to know how to feel when there's not really a right or a wrong. You're being led by something, you know, sometimes it's, you know, also the financial thing or the contractual thing. But it's just, yeah, like giving yourself the squidgy edges of just give, you know, this is how to set it up for yourself practically. This is where you can get your day-to-day support. But the big banner above it all is nothing is permanent. Nothing is permanent.

If this isn't working, but it doesn't feel right, just change it. You don't have to just strap yourself in and off you go. No quite. And also, I think, for me, it's not. me it would have been helpful to be aware of where I was getting this fear from because the people whose experiences I was thinking of that were fueling my opinion of my experience, what I was about to do, were probably quite limited. My mother didn't work professionally. There were five of us. She worked incredibly hard. She was a huge support to my father. But I think within me was a sort of

judgment, a self-judgment because I wanted to recreate what my mother had created for us as a childhood. But a lot of the women, in fact, in the book, said that their work ethic was based upon, if they were, you know, from the, inadvert of commerce, traditional family set up where the father was the breadwinner and the mother was at home or had a lesser career. And they wanted to emulate their father's work ethic and also mother, as their mother had mothered them. So it would be all these people, actually. Two people at once, which is an impossible situation. So that, I think, was already setting me up for this kind of sense of guilt. Because if I had known to throughout my pregnancy or even before that talk to women I knew who were working in all sorts

of different professions that would have fueled my sense of why am I making this decision and who else has done it and I would have just gone in with more more informed yeah but I think that's that sums up a lot of what happens when when you're a mum particularly the first first baby first moments of it where it's some things are these big universal themes that so many people have gone through before and we'll do again but it can still feel feel entirely new to you and very personal and very isolating with that even if you know other people where you could you know compare and contrast you can still sometimes just feel it makes you feel like you're in that spotlight on the stage of that okay this is me about to do that and am

okay with that yes yes it's tough all the way through I mean you know whether that's whether it's breastfeeding whether it's how you give birth whether you know it's so much that you feel like your different options so as well so that always makes you feel extra level of well I've somewhere along the way I've sort of chosen this. When you were talking about nursery, it reminded me of when I dropped off my eldest for nursery in the first day. And at the time we had a nanny Claire, who was actually our nanny for like 10 years.

She's like family, but she's very northern, no nonsense. And I came back from nursery and I said, oh, I've dropped off sunny and actually I actually feel all right. I thought it'd be emotional, I'd feel all right. And she went, well, it's just the first time he's gone somewhere when nobody loves him. Oh my God. So then you felt better?

I think it did make me laugh. But then, with you talking about your most embarrassing, like your worst, you know, light of working parenthoods, what sprung to mind for me was, oh God, it was years ago now. I was taking my eldest with me on a trip,

but we were going to Russia in the morning. And for some reason, my childcare had just gone a bit wonky. I had, it was very patchwork, and I had someone coming to look after the little two from, I think, six in the evening, but for some reason I had the whole day with no one to look after my younger two children. And I was literally leaving on like a 10 a.m. flight

and it was getting later in the day. I tried all my first people or my second people, one of my sister's mates. Could she look after them? I'm on the phone to reassuring you. You can do it? She was like, I don't know I can. It got later and later on.

I think it was literally sort of six or seven p.m. And I found this website or something like, emergency child. care dot go.uky. Anyone? Please. And this woman turned up

and it was literally like there's some baked beans, there's the baby, there's the three-year-old, there's a pie chair, I'll be back. And there was a fun fair opposite and she took the little two

to the fun fair and the fun fair comes around every year so we kind of know the guys that work there and this guy said to me when I got back the next day I don't think you should have

that babysitter again. She was showing us loads of photos of the inside of your house. It's like, wow. Wow. I really got that wrong. Oh my gosh, did she. I did not like that woman.

No, it was really wonky. But it was also. The children were safe. I mean, it was called emergency childcare. I was kind of asking for trouble, I guess, but. No, I mean, that's what it's for. It was really stressful. How did you, how long, what did you do when you were in Russia?

At what point did you know, no, someone else is there? I didn't know on the day. On the day, it was okay. Then this lady who had babysat before took over in the evening. So she was doing the evening and overnight, I think. And then when I got back, it was like, Okay, I won't let that happen again. Oh, no.

Be more organized. Oh, my God. The patchwork quilt of childcare and how you have to pull it together because my normal trick is to say yes and figure it out later. Yeah, good for you. No, I'm a bit more of a panicker than that. But that's why in the... I was panicking.

Yeah, you were panicking. Yes, I panicky earlier. The childcare chapter is called the childcare games because I wanted it to sound like the hunger games because the childcare is the funniest and most traumatic part of the whole thing. It's the hardest bit. Oh my God, it is. It's probably taken up the most headspace of all of it.

And it's like, it's like, you know, talking about, you know, all past relationships. It's like, you know, it's not them. It was you. Or no, it's not you. It was them. Or, you know, all of the different funny stories about, you know, opair dramas or nursery dramas. I mean, there are serious horrible stories. Yeah.

And there are really, really funny, ridiculous stories. And there's endless stories about fun. And also, I think if you do work professionally and then therefore have a need for childcare, your children grow up. and my children, if you spoke to them, it sounds like they've had a different nanny every day. They're like, oh my God, we've had so many nannies. I'm like, hang on, no, you haven't.

But they confuse, you know, reality of stories and, you know, the things that I've told them. So it's an endless source of content anyway. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It's such a lot to handle. Actually, if we finish on a positive note, one of the things that I've really loved about motherhood with work

is actually the antidote. that it provides to a stressful job. So whilst a lot of parenting is stressful in itself, when I've had a really full-on day or a job like mine, which can be very egocentric, very other, it's not got a foundation and reality a lot of the time, when I come home and it's all about their world or playing with something or something very daft and very small,

but very simple and fun, I really love how that sets. my brain free from being too trapped in what it is I do. And I think it's nice to remember that there's loads of fun, good stuff that can come alongside it, as well as all the broad stuff we talk about a lot. But the everyday thing of that is something I really appreciate. Oh, God, and you could never, you know, you could never go back from it. That's what I, you know, I so think I said earlier that the women in the book, nobody said, oh, I wish I hadn't done it. I wish I hadn't tried. Some people said they wish they had tried. They gave up work and then, you know, found it too difficult to go back

in. But that joy of, yeah, I mean, I remember sometimes my kids loved, or I loved taking them to monkey music. You know, there's all funny little half-hour music sessions. I'm sure the kids just didn't care at all. But I would take time off work sometimes and just go in late so I could do monkey music. Because it's, yeah, it's just pure, purely joyful just occasionally. And to be able to then go back to work and have both. Yeah, that feeling of euphoria is worth, you know, working towards.

Definitely. Cheers to that. Cheers to that. I'll play something on the Ivy. Happy birthday. Thank you so much, Dolly. Thank you for having me. It's been lovely.

Dolly didn't end up playing anything for me on the old Joanna, but it's a nice idea. How cool to be learning piano. I think that's really cool. I had a bit of a penny drop moment, actually, when I did strictly, because it was kind of the first thing I'd learned anything, time I learned anything new as an adult.

And it was like, why do I think I don't have to, like, I just sort of have to plateau, like how I am at everything is kind of just set by the time I get to teenage. I don't mean like the thing you end up doing for a living because obviously you get loads of experience of that but you know other pursuits naturally there's so many things I'd like to do

so yeah it's inspiring and good on Dolly for the piano lessons but also good on her for sharing the wealth of knowledge and putting together this book which as I say is really positive and so I'll definitely be pressing it into the palms of anyone who's feeling the wobble of you know what does life look like

beyond motherhood and getting back into work And meanwhile, I can see these three little guys have been around the park on their bikes. I'm not a very confident cyclist. I came off my bike a while ago, a few years ago, and it's made me really timid. So I'm happy to watch them, but it's Richard who does the bike rides.

I need to get back into my confidence with it, really. I just don't feel like, I don't know, it really knocked me. I've got a big scar on my forehead from literally doing one of those. I came off the towpath by the Thames, and I wasn't wearing a helmet, But we were going really slow, so I just didn't think that was a thing, which obviously

is a thing. And someone stepped out in front of me, and I sort of swerve left, came off the path, went straight down a very steep incline, and then, yeah, went completely over the top of the handlebars and landed mainly on my bonts. So that really freaked me out, but it's no excuse, really, because that was years ago. And the kids love it so much, so I've got to get better again. Anyway, I feel like I'm really rambling to you today. I think you just call me in one of those reflective moods.

And I'm sorry for my very long intro. But at least you had a nice chat with Dolly in the middle. And I've been busy recording new podcasts. So yes, I've done another one this week and I've got another one tomorrow. So more glorious things where that came from. And thank you for spending some time with me. And I hope whatever you're up to in the week is peaceful. And thank you so much to Claire Jones, my producer.

Thank you to Richard for editing. Thank you to El M.A for the gorgeous artwork. Shout to to Ella May, who is launching a magazine called We Made You All for New Parents, New Mums. So that, again, very much tallies with what we're doing here on the podcast. So maybe she can come and chat to me about it in full for a guest. I'd stop one time. That'd be nice, L.M.A. And yeah, happy Sunday.

Well, I say happy Sunday. It's ridiculous things today. There's no way you're listening to it on Sunday. And then you publish on a Monday. Happy whatever. day whatever time it is and on that I think it's probably time I'm going to do something else. Lots of loves, be cheesy soon by you.