Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 25: Mim and Liv NERVO

Episode Date: March 15, 2021

I first met Australian DJ twin sisters Mim and Liv (aka @nervomusic) over 10 years ago when we wrote a song called Not Giving Up On Love together. It was the most fun writing week. I immediately adored them both. Such smart, talented and gorgeous women - and so much positive energy! When they both became pregnant around the same time it seemed the fates were smiling on them. They both have gorgeous baby daughters now but for Liv, she has had to face a very different beginning to motherhood than the one she had envisaged - one as a single mum and the road to that has been traumatic for her. This podcast episode features lots of tears.. but also life lessons and laughs. Some of the themes might be upsetting to listen to but there is still lots of optimism in there, too.. and tons of sisterly love.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hi, happy Mother's Day. What do you do if you are a mother or you have a mother that you celebrate um for your mother's day i'll tell you what my mother's day is every year i really look forward to it it's a lion breakfast in bed um i got a lovely breakfast in bed today with a little vase of daffodils

and some chocolates and richard even got me a little present which was a tiny electric screwdriver. This is a good thing because I'm the one who does all the flat packs in the house. I love putting things together like that and I love the fact I have my own screwdriver. I already have my own hammer so I'll add it to the collection. Anywho I have come out the house it's peaceful and quiet under the guise of collecting milk and ketchup but I'm actually going to talk to you so I am going to learn from my mistakes and I'm not going to keep ending the previous podcast with who I've got coming up because I got it wrong twice. It's a new thing I

was trying out. I've seen professionals do it. It doesn't work for me because I'm obviously not quite at that level yet where we're streamlined ship and everything always goes as it should. So I know I said I'd be speaking to Ellie Taylor this week. That will be next week. This week... Okay, so I recorded this conversation back in November. And then there were some complications with putting it out. Because this is the first time ever I've spoken to two people at once. And they are incredible. They are called Mim and Liv Nervo.

They are these beautiful Australian twin sisters. Who DJ and songwrite. They've written some massive tunes. I met them 10 years ago, maybe more actually. We wrote a song called Not Giving Up, which is a big trance record I did with a DJ called Armin van Buuren. But I had such a lovely time working with them. They were so full of energy. Oh, sorry if it's getting a bit windy. Rachel, tell me off for that with the microphone. Yeah, they're so full of energy, so positive, so lovely. We had lots of giggles and we got lots done. And yeah, I was really thrilled with them. I mean, I see them every once in a while, but they travel the world a lot.

And when I saw they were both pregnant at the same time, I thought, is that, you know, a photography trick surely these girls who are so close together and also work together um you know they're such good friends I mean as well as sisters surely they're not also having a baby at the same time but they were how lovely and then it was my 40th birthday and I invited them to come to my birthday party and Liv came with her six month baby bump and Mim with her tiny I think then maybe only six-week-old baby strapped to her front and poor Liv was in a bit of a state of shock really. She'd found out two weeks before that the father of her baby actually

wasn't going to be involved in her baby's life at all. He um he had another another family and so she was suddenly facing the prospect of raising a baby on her own I mean not completely on her own she has Mim she has family around her but you know not not in the way that she thought and not without and without a supportive um father in the frame for her daughter so when I came to speak to them I would have spoken to them anyway I mean being international DJs who also have tiny babies that's pretty unique but obviously Liv has another side to her story which is even more well it's not the typical but sadly it's far from being the only story of its kind so anyway I should probably say there's a bit of a maybe I don't know is it the right term a trigger warning for anyone that might find it traumatic

to listen to a tale where someone has you know going to gone through something very upsetting that involves um deception and uh yeah being lied to effectively uh but anyway i don't really want to put it in my words i want to let live tell her story but i think the overwhelming themes are that mim and live are such a powerhouse sometimes they're so entwined with each other you won't be able to tell who's speaking when it doesn't really matter actually if you get a bit confused sometimes you'll know when it's when when the time's right you'll know when it's live and when it's mim and they're now raising these daughters who are cousins but obviously they've got this sisterly bond too so it sort of continues as it will there's a lot of optimism and positivity there but um but yeah it's been sort of forged by fire really uh the the framework of how they are raising

their their children anyway as i said they put it much better than I ever could and I've really by now my family would have expected me to return home with the ketchup and the milk rather than just wandering around the back streets talking to you so anyway I will speak to you on the other side and um yeah I hope I hope me maybe have some tissues nearby all right lots of love to you in a bit. Bye. Why are we programmed to not like the sound of our own recorded voice? Don't you think that's quite odd? Yeah.

No one likes the way they sound. No, no. You can cope with it though, Mim. You're better. When we're recording vocals, but speaking? Oh, yeah. singing is different yeah yeah yeah of course yeah but yeah then i can listen to myself forever singing not for me i can't i'm not joking i'll never listen to myself back then either i can't it's really bad i mean richard because he's a bass player when he's listening back to his album stuff yeah he'll listen to it over and over and over. And with me, I'm

like, get it on. If I'm ever in a meeting or at a friend's house and they want to play our records, I'm like, please turn it off. Because I can't relax. I'm the same. I'm exactly the same. And I don't want reverential listening either. I don't want anyone being like, you know, the head nodding. It's a really good one.

I'll stop it. It's so embarrassing. Just take it away and listen to it privately. I't want to know and actually i like not listening to music a lot of the time like i like silence oh really so at home you don't have music playing no i don't like talkback radio well you like podcast i like classical music and talkback radio how old am i no but it's probably quite reassuring as well because it's a step outside of anything that might refer to work. Yes, exactly right. So it feels like it's just your own. You're not analysing it.

Something separate. I think that's quite healthy sometimes. Where are your girls at the moment? Are they together? They are. They're at home with our miracle nanny. We call her Miracle Megs. And she helps us, you know, in times like this when we have

to both scoot off to do work. She lives with us. Oh, that's so nice. But you weren't all together through lockdown? No, Megs was with me in Australia and Min was in Barcelona with her in-laws. Okay. But Megs is one of six kids so she can handle the drama as well. That's very important.

Super important. You might need to send her over here sometimes. Yeah. Emergency shift. Because sometimes, because it's quite a lot of kids here, Super important. You might need to send her over here sometimes. Yeah. Emergency shift. I know. Because sometimes, because it's quite a lot of kids here, you do feel like you need to sort of make sure people are all right with, it's a certain pitch that happens in big families that's slightly different to small families.

Yeah, some people can't handle the drama, the constant drama. But we're two of four, so we're kind of used to the constant drama. And where are you in the middle? We're in the middle. In the middle. Yeah. I only just realised you've got different birthdays. No, that's fake.

It's fake? Yeah, there's so much fake. That's so disappointing. Wikipedia, it's so weird. Yeah, Wikipedia. You know, we try to edit that all the time. I never even normally look at Wikipedia. Someone looked it up earlier because I was telling Niall,

who you met earlier, and he was like, different birthdays. I was like, I didn't even know that. No, it's not true. It would be really cool. It would be really cool. It would be really cool. Identical twins on different dates. Yeah, I was like wow. I can't believe that's fake. That's so funny. We've tried to edit it.

Are you actually even sisters? That's a conspiracy theory. Let me call my mum. Yeah, we've tried to edit it a million times and each time it just gets edited back. Who's doing that then? I don't know.

Someone who really likes the idea of you having different birthdays. Who knows? Are either of the dates on Wikipedia correct? No. No. Oh, it's not. It says 18th of February, isn't it? No, it says the 17th and 18th of October.

There you go. Oh, well, we're the 18th of February. That is so weird. You've not even got the month. That's random. That's really not even wikipedia needs funding it does it always someone's definitely my one i mean and rich's one for ages said something about how he had a like a heroin overdose backstage they just like buried it in there. Who would write that? Which he didn't. Oh, well, because he was doing cred a little bit. I know.

And someone's definitely edited mine. And then I've suddenly thought, should I go in there and like make it correct? And I thought, ah, I can't be bothered. I don't think because we've tried as ourselves and you can't do it as yourself. So we've gotten like an assistant to do it and it always gets changed back. We go back to October. The world of mine. I find that really funny.

Yeah. Because also most people do start like lazy research. Not like me, obviously. I've extended that. Of course. People look at Wikipedia all the time. In fact, I actually love Wikipedia. Yeah.

You think it's an impartial view. Yeah. Because if you go to an artist's website, you think they're you know they're upselling or whatever yeah yeah but no where is the truth right here on this podcast maybe we could finally edit it back because of this podcast exactly let's start a petition and get it changed or just keep it open then you then you get birthday presents in February and in October. So it could work out quite well. In fact, you get two days in October, so it's all good.

That is how we worked it out because everybody, all our fans were like, happy birthday. We're like, so weird, they're all saying happy birthday. So out of sync with the reality. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we even posted a birthday post like years ago to kind of set the record, oh, happy birthday to us. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then everyone was, yeah. You know what as well, people don't really necessarily want the truth. It's like there's things that come up a lot of times and then, you know, I remember recently there's a story that said that I was offered the Kylie song Can't Get You Out of My Head. Oh, yeah. And I wasn't. And I remember I did an interview, funnily enough,

for an Australian radio show earlier in the year because I was supposed to be touring Australia in April and I'd already done a few bits of press for it. And so I said on this radio show, oh, no, that's not actually true. And they went, oh, we can set the record straight. I went, I said, look, I'll tell you. I didn't. And it will make no difference.

People will still continue to think I did turn that song down. And it's like sometimes the truth just doesn't want to get in the way of a good story, you know? Yeah. That's why I like things like these podcasts and also the other day. I mean, I love a bit of the Daily Mail. Oh, yeah. You're not supposed to admit it, but yes, of course.

I just do. I love the account. How much of that do you think is real? Well, not a lot of it. But I remember, you know, recently there's this saga going on with Will Smith and Jada yes I'm aware of the saga and she has this uh Facebook program yeah the red room room or the red table or something like that and it was really good because she was setting the record straight

because the press had but she only set the record straight when the whistle was blown. Of course. But that's okay, isn't it? Well, it kind of, for me, is a little bit of a reactive, I don't know. Up until that point, you believed that they were in this incredibly honest relationship. Well, it was incredibly honest. Well, no, I don't think it was. No, it was, Liv. They actually broke up, but they just didn't want to tell the world that they did break up i guess that's the whole thing they just didn't they left out the bits you leave out the bits but then you then you still let this facade carry on yeah but that opens

up a big big can of worms like how much do you need to tell everyone i know that's true i mean you you're like that so if like you don't show photos of your kids, their faces, and you know, you keep a lot of stuff private. I sometimes think people, it's nice to keep a bit of privacy, right? It's also, it's so personal, those decisions, because everybody has their own thing. And for some people, what I've done with what I've shared is too much. And some people, it's not enough. And I think you've just got to do what feels comfy for you. And my instinct is normally, if just before you post something or whatever,

or tweet something, you think, is this the right thing to do? Don't do it. It's probably answers no, yeah. Yeah. And occasionally I've done something and then it's always sort of bitten me back a bit. But I mean, during the lockdown,

I ended up showing the kids, all of them, in my actual home. Yes, because of the disco. Yeah, and it just felt like suddenly the idea of the privacy thing just suddenly felt completely irrelevant because the whole world was so topsy-turvy. But you share a lot of your life online, don't you? Yeah.

Of your life, yeah. But I did a little bit at lockdown, but I got coronavirus and honestly I was out for 11 days. I was completely out. and then when I was finally getting better my boyfriend got sick and then when he was getting better my mother-in-law got sick oh no you've been through it with all of them yeah we really did that's why when I hear these stories about some people how they don't uh have like they have maybe they lose their smell and their scent and that's it you know we, we had fever, we had sore throat, cough, fatigue.

Yeah. We lost our scent and our smell. So, you know, I'm glad I don't have coronavirus anymore. Yeah. And I'm glad to be back in the UK. And, yeah, I'm just, I think, you know, this is the new norm. Yeah. Well, but it's still shifting, isn't it?

It's a little bit of standing on ice plates or something. Just stand up and get your balance and then something will kind of shift again i was reading an amazing quote the other day and i sent it to my friend actually let me get it out it's a a darwin quote oh i love this quote charles darwin it was not it wasn't it isn't the strongest animal that survives it's the animal most um here we go yeah it's not the strongest of the species that survives nor the most intelligent that survives it's the one that is the most adaptable to change that lives within the means available and works cooperatively against common threats i think that's so incredible for right now yes because everyone gets stressed and understandably so with COVID

because you're thrown into completely different situations of, you know, being with your in-laws the whole time or being without income and having to feed your family. But it's true. We just need to adapt. We need to be able to try. Well, I do think that maybe the fact that we're all musicians might have helped us a little bit because yes you'll have the same thing that i felt and as soon as everything went

topsy-turvy and my diary was clear i thought well i'm so used to the fact that until i'm literally on stage doing the gig yeah it can always change the last minute yeah i mean it's unnerving to have a completely you know quiet year don't get me wrong but i at least i'm i'm used to that feeling of you know you're never doing it till you're there doing it you know what i year don't get me wrong but i at least i'm i'm used to that feeling of you know you're never doing it till you're there doing it you know what i mean yeah see it was a bit different with us because we were really we're always booked up six months in advance we can't change things no but it did clear our calendar it cleared our calendar but normally your work's really really rigid that is quite unusual in the musician. But that has only been for the last ten years while we've been successful.

I say it just for the last decade. I know. It's true. I know. I find like I know with me when I want to plan my personal time with my boyfriend, I've had to plan it months in advance. Oh, wow. Okay, I can see you this weekday.

Oh, my goodness. It's really, yeah. So you've had a big, big change then if you've suddenly found a lot more quiet and not working. And is that the longest you've not seen each other? Yeah. Physically, yeah. But we saw each other every day on Skype and Zoom. That's true.

Yeah, we were doing, catching up on things like, you know, filing our Dropbox. Yeah, all those stuff, yeah. Admin. DJ admin. And it's still not even, we haven't even scratched the surface. No, exactly. Well, I think maybe you're like me,

I had such good intention at the beginning of sorting so many things and then I just, I had this weird mad rush of it at the beginning and I was like, you know, sorting out drawers and cleaning cupboards I hadn't touched for ages. Amazing. And then after about, probably about a month, the novelty just totally wore off. It's great that you lasted a month.

We were like, we're disinfecting everything. We went around with alcohol and we cleaned absolutely everything and I think that was the only time. Oh, really? The first time? Yeah, well, I've dusted things that never have been dusted before and now they look dusty again, so what was the point of that? Turns out you have to do it regularly, otherwise it's no effect.

Well, you've got an army of helpers. That's what's good with you as well. Do I? Are they helpers? No. Really? No. I mean, no, they're not really helpers, no.

No, they kind of just pootle around and do their own thing. Everybody leaves their little trail. I think if I just stepped back, I'd be able to tell what everybody did all day and where they were. Yeah, definitely. See, I think our family, our parents had kids so that we would help because we all had. Well, we were trained to help, weren't we? Sure.

Non-stop. Weekends were garden, you know, time to help dad in the garden on the weekend. And we were all separated and had our own patches. Oh, wow. That we needed to do. Did it work? Do you think you had a good, a positive effect? Do you know what?

We're so different and actually when you speak to our siblings we all have such a very different um recollection of our upbringing which is so weird we all lived in the same house you know um i think we had a great upbringing yeah it was strict it was strict yeah but you'll speak to our sister and she thinks well she should have been able to do this that and the other and she didn't get this, that. So it's very interesting. My dad was a bit more strict with her because she was the first. I remember her first school dance,

she wasn't allowed to wear a skirt that was shorter than above her knee or anything like that. And I remember when we were, she got really upset at that because we wore mini skirts. Yeah, well, that got in the way, isn't it, when the first ones had the slightly more stricter upbringing, the next one is just like, and it's also there's the two of you. Exactly.

It's a bit more of a force. It is hard as a parent if you're outnumbered with kids. So, yeah, suddenly there's three of you all wanting to do the same things, even though she's older. Yeah, and then I think with my brother, he didn't care about the school dances, did he? Whereas us girls did. They're probably even more lax on him. Oh, yeah.

I think you're under the radar number four. It's just like, I'm not sleeping off of Din's own thing. I already know my fourth will be the one who's shimmering down the drainpipe. For sure. He's only four, but I can see it. I can see that look in his eye. Do you ever, because you've got all your kids now with all different ages. Do you ever worry that, you know, you're doing something wrong that could that could like disturb them mentally in their life later on like of course yes yes that's just

parenting in a nutshell for better and for worse I mean yeah I think I try not to but sometimes I feel like a really great mum and other times I feel like a terrible mum and I you know I like to read up about stuff and have conversations with other parents and take on board new things and sometimes I think, oh, my goodness, I've been doing it all wrong. I should have just started again. I should have done this, that and the other. And, yeah, I think parenting as a whole is just a lot more reactive than I thought. I thought it was more about what you intended to do,

but actually you get your small person and then they dictate so much about what they need from you. I mean, how old are your little girls now? My little girl's 14 months and mine is 16 and a half months. How crazy is that they're so close? Don't you think that's crazy? I mean, obviously you work together now. We live together as well.

Yeah, you live together, yeah. So when you found out you were both having babies at the same time, did that feel like, of course we are, or was it? Well, yeah, because we were both trying at the same time yes and um and we were lucky we both got pregnant super easily yeah that could have been really difficult couldn't have one of you it was much further on and yeah and then it was just perfect as well with you know taking breaks it was great it was perfect and now it's even more perfect yeah i see already the benefit in the two little girls you know they don't at the moment they don't share the same nappy size but often they do Now it's even more perfect. I see already the benefit in the two little girls.

You know, they don't, at the moment, they don't share the same nappy size, but often they do. Oh, you can make nappies fit different sizes. Yeah, just go bigger. Go bigger, exactly. Don't go smaller. We act a lot when they saw each other after they've been apart. Yeah, yeah. They're at the stage, though, where they annoy each other a bit.

You know, they want all the toys. We're trying to teach them how to share oh i know grown-ups that are bad at that yeah it's just you know they want both we bought two parrots and they're identical we wanted one for each kid and for some reason my daughter ithaca will want both of them and steal them both and then ace will want the other you know do you find she's a bit more dominant being that little tiny bit older? They take it in turns. No, I actually think Ace is a bit more ballsy.

Yeah, your girl's a little more gentle, I think. Yeah, Ace is. And so where do you get your advice, like for five kids? Well, I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons why I started the podcast because, you know, when you start doing a project and then halfway through it kind of dawns on you why, you think what made me want to do this and I think I've been spending time talking to all these other amazing women

and like I always wanted to talk to you guys because I think there's a lot about our work that's similar but also I think there's lots of things that we just totally unique to you and I think it's for me to get advice and sometimes solidarity and sometimes to be reassured and other times just to be encouraged. Yeah, to learn. I think as well, even though my mum was really strong and was always a working mother, I think...

Is your parenting similar to your mother's? In a lot of ways, yes, but I think I've struggled more with giving myself permission to have my own thing. She didn't seem to... She always seemed to be brilliantly sort of guilt-free even though she was always working and in a brilliant way like we've got a brilliant relationship I don't I never viewed resented any of her work it didn't occur to me but I think I've sometimes been a bit more apologetic about having to go off to go for work and also the fact that I need it it's not just something I do

actually I want that for myself and I've had to sort of remind myself. So I think it's part of the reason why I'm in the chats anyway, yeah. Yeah, I remember. I think your parents can teach you so much and grandparents as well. We're lucky our mothers are still alive and they were very involved in our upbringing. But what I like about speaking to peers and women in your same age group or who have had kids maybe a few years before you,

like when I spoke to you about sterilising. Oh, yeah. You were the first person that said to me, don't worry about sterilising those bottles, you know. It's a lot of work and a lot of time and you're busy. Just, you know, wash it with hot water and soap and make sure you wash it well and that's good enough. But you know what?

I didn't get upset. I've got my girlfriend, Lauren, told me that when I had my third. Oh, no. She was like, do you see what I mean? She was like, are you still sterilizing? I was like, well, yeah. And she goes, look, if you're breastfeeding, you don't sterilize everything. Like, it's okay as long as things are clean and it's fine.

So that was like passed down, you know. Yeah. So I spent a lot of time doing things like that. And, you know, there's no judgment about any of it. You know, if someone's just sterilized to their seven or whatever, one of the things we end up doing, some of them are common sense things and some of them are there to make us feel like we're doing the best job for us more people.

So there's sort of different ways you're approaching everything and learning on the hop, aren't you? And of course, especially your first child when you have a kid if it's such a disruption in terms of you know nothing about it you've been working so hard at your career for so many years so you you feel confident in that but then when a baby comes along and you're like oh do i need a crib do i need a special pillow for them to sleep in do i need a sterilizing machine you're a special pillow for them to sleep in? Do I need a sterilising machine? Well, you're a new consumer market as well,

so they'll be like, you need these things for the best kind of baby. But, I mean, you said you felt confident about your career, but how long did you take before you went back to work with your babies? Oh, don't. That was terrible. Eight days. I was going to say, it looked like you didn't really stop. Eight days?

Yeah, but 11 days. I got guilted terribly. Terribly. You got guilted, what, from the work you had booked? We had a client that we've got guilt. 11 days. I got guilted terribly. Yeah. Terribly. You got guilted, what, from the work you had booked? We had a client that we were working for. We were doing like a branding deal for them. It's a three-year deal. It's a three-year deal.

We're still in the deal. And we had to do service days. Service days. And we had to provide assets so they could post on their, you know, social media or use them. And anyway, we. After year one, they had the option to pick up year two and three. And we said to them, we knew we were pregnant at that time,

but we hadn't told anyone. No, and also because I had a threatened miscarriage, so I was like really not telling anyone. I hadn't told our agent. We told our agent about you. Yeah. But we were like... We said to them, look, guys,

I know you're going to be expecting us to create some more content because it would be them having a film crew come and create content for us. But because they wanted to shoot it right in the time when I was seven months pregnant so I was going to be big and fat and didn't really want to be shooting visuals for that big. And Mim was basically would have had a new newborn. for it that big and Mim was basically would have had a new newborn.

And I said to them, if you need us to create content at that time of the year, do not pick up option two. We don't want to do this deal. And it was a woman. It was a woman who was running the whole campaign and she's like, don't worry, I'm a mother. I get it. We'll create tools beforehand or if we don't get the chance, we'll do something creative.

Yeah. And then what do you know? Yeah. Literally a week before I gave birth, our agent was like, you have to do this. You've signed the contract. Oh, golly. And we were like, I told you we didn't want to do this.

Yeah. That makes me feel terrible for you. That's awful. It was awful. And what's worse is, oh, God, our house was broken into on the shoot. Oh, the shoot was a disaster. Because we, a disaster because Ithaca was 11 days old. Mim's partner wasn't in town. He had to dash off.

At that point we hadn't had a nanny. I was seven months pregnant. And so we found a nanny. Seven and a half months pregnant. Yeah, we found a nanny but then somebody left um a suitcase on the road with all of our everything in it our clothes yeah and of course it got stolen because it's in notting hill so it was just a disaster it was a total disaster that is i can feel the pain of that and then the house got robbed because of something in the suitcase and it was just it was like just

a dominoes of like we didn't want to do this job. No, well, that's basically bullying you as well. And someone, as you say, the people who reassured you, just not thinking at all about how you were feeling. I'm sorry, they don't care. No, they don't. Agents don't care. No.

Their job is to get you gigs. But the problem is we did warn them. We gave them six months notice. And even the company, we said, please don't, you know, don't continue with the contract. Well, I mean, I remember when I was having Mickey, I got a job offer, but they said, but the thing is, I knew I was going to be about seven months pregnant,

they said, but the client's asked if you can dress so it doesn't look like you're pregnant. And I was like, well, no, I'll be pregnant. Well, how are they going to do that? You're going to get a pregnant woman on stage if that's what you can get me. And how creepy anyway. Why do you want to conceal my pregnancy from your guests? It's rude.

That is rude. Yeah, and I also had a traumatic one where I'd booked in when I had Mickey's. I mean, not Mickey, Ray, my third. Because I'd had the other two prematurely, I had a DJ gig that was in the diary. And I remember when it got booked in, I thought, well, I'll probably have him early. Not planning premature births, but I just assumed it would happen. So by then he'll be like three months, I'll be fine. And of course he came full term.

Oh, no. And I'd forgotten all about it. And I remember the week before looking at my diary and going, oh, my God, Richard, we're supposed to be in, I think it was like Serbia or something next week. And it was too late to get a passport for him and I just had to leave. And I remember the night before just sobbing. I could not stop crying.

It was like he was being pulled off me with Velcro, like ripped off me. Like, you can't leave this tiny baby. I just was all, I vowed to myself I will never, ever let myself in that situation. Do you know what happened with us, which I found really interesting, is we did go back to touring, so quite extensively. A month. Oh, did I?

I got one month off. You did. I remember crying at Stansted Airport in the toilet. But we took with our babies. We had such a tiny baby. They got passports within three weeks. It was amazing. And so we did tour with the newborns for six months which was quite

easy it was easy in terms of they just sleep the whole time but one thing that was really interesting it was a little bit it's doable just yeah but your body when you're breastfeeding does not like touring in the baby when you're at home and you're on a lovely schedule, you are creating a lot of milk and everyone's happy. Mama's breasts are happy and baby's happy. But it happened to us last week. We were in Belgium. We had a job for some unicorn promoters that we worked for.

And the same thing happened to you, Liv. Oh, no. Breastfeeding for me was the hardest thing to do while touring. Just the managing of it. You know, a pump breaks. You know, I was an idiot and got the electronic one at the beginning. But, of course, you know, if you lose one part or if, you know, there's not a strong enough power source, then it doesn't work.

So luckily I moved on to the hand pump ones. Yeah, the manuals. But I was – I couldn't even get on with them, so I don't think you are foolish. Oh, really? The electronic ones are supposed to be – I be, that's what I used to use. Oh, really? No, no.

I know that panic of when it's not working. When it's not. You get obsessed with the idea of not being able to keep your milk going. The amount of things I've Googled of like, how long can you be apart from your baby? And of course, all you get are all these mums and that people going, well, I mean, you can leave your baby, but just don't. Why don't you just not go on that trip? Why don't you just not do the work? And you're like, I have to do it.

I just want someone supportive. Our mum is a super mum. Our mum flew over for my birth because I had a horrendous breakup when I was six months pregnant. Remember, I found out. Yeah, well, I know. The old double life with my boyfriend. So then I found that out when I was six months pregnant,

and then my mum, and I was terrified of being a mum. A, being a single mum. Well, we were there but still. Yeah, having to push a child out at birth on my own. Like the whole thing, I was literally. Well, you've clarified already of the idea of having a baby or giving birth. I mean, I wasn't. Well, do you know what?

No, I wasn't terrified until this whole thing happened. Then I was really terrified. I think you'd been programming yourself for so long to have a baby with your ex. Yeah. And then he was, yeah, he'd been speaking about it for years. And then you were expecting him. Was this someone you'd been with for quite a while? Yeah, I was with him over two years.

Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. And it was a topic of our conversation since like the first couple of months that we were together. But then, so anyway, I went through a major traumatic breakup and my mom came over and Yeah, yeah. And it was a topic of our conversation since like the first couple of months that we were together. But then so anyway, I went through a major traumatic breakup and my mum came over. And I remember I think Ace was a month old and I had to go to Holland

just for one night. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I went to Holland. I remember being at Stansted and that pump broke. So I remember being in the toilet and I didn't know how to express because no one had taught know how to express because no one had taught me how to express so I'm literally crying over a sink in Stan said going why am I on this plane why did you accept this gig yeah yeah you do have those moments well I mean obviously

not everybody can relate to the idea of having to fly and do that sort of work with a tiny baby but I think every mum that's gone back to work when they're still breastfeeding their baby will know that feeling of just the desperation. And like, I mean, it's sadness. It is sadness. It is sadness. And it also feels like the most important thing you're doing at the time is feeding your baby. And I think particularly if you're dealing with the weirdness of being back at work

and the worry about that it's a job you can know you're doing that sort of connects you to the fact that you're a new mum because otherwise you feel like you want to go up to everybody and go you know I've just had a baby I've actually got a really small baby at home and um yeah I think that I've had bits where yeah there's been problems with breast pumps and things breaking and stuff and then you just feel like gosh this is this is awful I've sacrificed the ability to feed my baby for a job like what was I thinking what's wrong with me and my priorities just feel like, this is awful. I've sacrificed the ability to feed my baby for a job. Like, what was I thinking? What's wrong with me and my priorities? You just feel, like, really screwy in your head.

And actually, I think once you get, you know, stop breastfeeding, you get your brain, like, recalibrates. Yeah, you were saying, I can't wait for that. Clarity comes back. It does a bit because I think it sort of takes over. Well, just for me anyway. It was like I was sort of almost obsessed with feeding. I think that's a great obsession.

Feed your baby. I think it worked for me because I had hospitalized babies, the first two, and so they weren't with me. And it was the one job I knew that the doctors couldn't do. It was like, okay, this will be my role. I will wear that hat and take home the industrial pump I got sent home from afterwards. Yeah, we did that too. They've really improved a lot since then. It's still pretty industrial, don't worry. It's still pretty big and heavy, the industrial pump I got sent home from afterwards. Yeah, we did that too. They've really improved a lot since then, but it's like 16 years ago.

Don't worry, it's still pretty big and heavy, the one. It makes this horrible noise. Oh, yeah, all of that, all of that. I remember so well, yes. So how does it work in your field though? Because so much of what you do is on stage and it's young and it's youth culture and it's clubbing. Well, we were really worried about that whole youth culture thing because our fans are young.

You know, it's 15, 16, 17. Yeah. But I don't know. I think they've kind of moved with us a little bit. And I think, I mean, certainly from when we do post the babies. Yeah, we get a lot of love when we post baby photos. We probably lost a whole bunch of fans, but I think we might have gained, hopefully, we get a lot of love when we post baby photos. We probably lost a whole bunch of fans, but I think we might've gained, hopefully we might've gained some. I think it also goes back

to Liv and I, we did want to keep a few things private as well. Like our social media, like there's so many things going on in the world all the time. so many tragedies going on, you know, and we don't always, we don't like to post on all the tragedies. We like to. Like what tragedies? All the big issues. I know we posted, of course, on Black Lives Matter. Oh, yeah. But, you know, and we did post on the fires in Australia.

Yeah. But the fires in California we didn't post on and there'll be certain worldwide topics that are sad yeah that we don't post on because we like to keep our page happy yeah and bright and exciting you're positive people and what you're doing is it's a positive thing that you do and when you're DJing your your whole thing is the catharsis and the escape away from of course everybody knows about all these things and i've spent a lot of time thinking about this too because when you're an entertainer and things are quite cataclysmic stuff's happening yeah globally you think is it okay that i'm doing something that's quite sort of oh yeah light-hearted

when some people are going through tough things but actually humans we're really complex and we can have all those emotions running concurrently and especially you know when you're talking about a a platform like your you know your celebrity platform there'll be other places that will be supplying them with all the information about the fires in california and how it's affecting people and the rescue efforts and what's going on, they don't necessarily need us to also be the people informing them because they're getting that information as well in their feed. We're just sort of providing a different tone that's also reactive to what's going on because you do have to be reactive. You do.

There is a pressure to we have to post on this because this is what's happening right now. Yeah, I suppose you get people sometimes going, why are you not mentioning about this? That can be quite. Well, I read an article the other day where there's, that's right, Red Bull, Red Bull, the company, they just fired three of their COOs or whatever, CEOs,

the high up people, and they've been patronised. Yeah, they've been ridiculed. Ridiculed. That's the word I'm looking for. They've been ridiculed for not posting on the Black Lives Matter movement. And we did post. Yeah. But that pressure to post as well, it's a lot of pressure.

It is. Because everyone's talking about it. You do agree with what a lot of people are saying. You know, I find that. I don't like posting all the time and I find it's a big pressure of ours. Yeah. Because it's your window to the world. I don't enjoy making political statements.

I just, you know, I don't. I know at the moment we do go a bit more deep, especially now like Mother's Day we posted something quite strong. Yeah. Well, it's funny when something happens to you, your eyes open like you have a child and then suddenly you become so aware of what it takes to be a mother or you go through a betrayal or a trauma and you become aware.

But, yeah, we did. So it was Mother's Day when you posted about your experience. Yeah, because I was literally frozen. I couldn't. And a lot of people asked, you know, because Mim's very, well, prolific, especially her partners in the public eye. He loves social media. He's always posting.

His posting is all about Mim and their baby and stuff. And so we got a lot of questions, like, is it the same guy? Is it the same dad? You know, Liv, who's this guy? Could you imagine? And I know you laugh, but honestly. The amount of times even friends asked us. Not friends.

Well, colleagues, colleagues. Well, yeah, but not friends. Well, just like casually. Like, so what, same dad? Yeah. You would be surprised how many people ask that. It's full of people. I know.

I'm sorry. It just makes you think a lot of people are very sick in the head. Yes, that's true. But also it's such a weird thing to, even if you're thinking it, which I'm surprised at, to actually then ask is really brazen, isn't it? It is brazen. But I think, like yourself yourself you're like well you got pregnant at the same time how did that happen it is a bit of a freak factor when people see us

with two kids at the same time it has to be the same person no i agree but it's i do people not understand how this thing works i think people don't realize it's possible you just you know met other people at different same sort of time frame. It's like chronology can still work. Yeah, that's all it was. Yeah. Yeah, but we, yeah, I don't know. We pick and choose, I guess, when we like to go deeper with our posts. But with, you know, with what happened, what made you want to post?

Because I appreciate that you feel like you're certainly set on the record straight, but sometimes these things come from something else. It's not just about that. No, um i mean i've been through every single emotion under the sun and there's there's still a lot of anger involved in what happened um we'll just give a little recap basically you explain what your story no so i found out when i was six months pregnant that my partner of over two years actually had a longer-term partner, a girl that he was with in Auckland, for 12 years, and he had two children, and we were both pregnant at the same time. We haven't told you this?

I didn't know all the details. Yeah. Oh, I thought I told you. Well, I knew that he had a partner. He actually had another partner as well. He had three women, actually. Yeah, it's a horrible story, but he, not three, three at the same time for one part

but there was just two of us for the most part. Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, Sophie, honestly. Yeah, I went into proper shock. But it gets even worse. But it gets even worse. How can it get worse from that? Well, we were both pregnant at the same time.

They were through IVF. This is the girl in Auckland. Yes, the 12-year relationship. And I found out, I mean, through this crazy sequence of events, but basically the sister of his partner found me in his office. And the deceit was so crazy. A lot of his mates were in on it. All his work colleagues were in on it.

What? They all knew about our relationship. The godfather to his first child was the one that actually set her up. Yeah, who introduced me to him, you know, three and a half years ago. And he went to school with his – With the part – I call her the wife. So I just went through this like, whoa, what I've been living has been a lie for a couple of years

and I'm six months pregnant. What the hell am I going to do? And so now I see the world differently. It's really changed me. Oh, my God, I don't want to cry. No, there's nothing wrong with crying. Yeah. It's a big thing.

But also look that you're here and strong and you've come so far. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. It's pretty crazy what a mind and heart can endure. It is, but also, you know, this won't be just your story. There are other people that experience this. I've learned that a lot. Yeah, you do. But now I just have such like a strong, what is it,

like admiration for single mums. Yeah. Of course. You know, just do it. I'm sorry. No, honestly, I knew there would be tears because it's... You don't realise, you know, because when you... We did come from a lucky family.

Our parents are still together. You know, that's what we envisage for our life. Yes, yes. Going back to that Darwin quote, you know, Liv was on the path, thinking she was on the path to that. To that, yes. And I think that's what's happened. It's just shattered her whole, well, a lot of dreams.

And now she's doing so much research. She's been listening to podcasts and that kind of stuff. And sadly there is a world of women and men that are gravely betrayed by their partners. Yeah. And I think actually what you say about your own upbringing, it's very... You're not programmed. You are. You definitely are.

And you have examples of what... You don't know until you're older how much is programmed and and and learned behavior by the time you're only tiny like seven or eight you've already learned um your first experience of what what love how love is demonstrated how um you know your relationship with finance actually money these things are so difficult your relationship with food all these things become things that actually learn from when you're really small and everybody you know assumes that growing up in a happy happy family together family it is amazing it has yeah it has untold rich but it also can sometimes actually set a really high bar because if you see your fat your mum and dad it's been a

traditional household and they're always they always seem really solid yeah but it not just sets a high bar it it you you don't realize that people like this exist. No. You don't realise that. And rightly so. Most people are not like that. This world is, I still believe the world is full of more good people than bad people. Yeah, I believe that too. But I think people are difficult.

I think people. But I think you learn, I think part of growing up in a, like at least an honest environment, don't get me wrong, I don't feel like I or we are like naive people I think I'm quite cynical you know in business we've been done over more times than I can remember but and so I don't feel and I obviously have had friends cheat on me and partners cheat on you know friends you know everybody I know gets cheated on at one point but um I think what happens is when you grow up in an environment

where there's more truth, you don't actually believe that a massive lie could be happening. No, of course not. It's hard to explain still. It's just still hard to wrap your head around it. It is. Well, even from where I'm sitting, it's, you know, there's like a billion things that i'm thinking and most of it's just what is going on in the head of someone that well they're not right

no they're really not they're really they're sick it's pathological well i think yeah it is pathological and i think but it's hard when you're a first-time mom how do you teach your kid what do you say to your kid when your kid's like three years old? That's stressful. I don't know what to say to little Lacey. Presumably her dad is not in the picture. Oh, he's completely ghosted. Disappeared.

He won't even answer a text message. You don't know if he's got any involvement with the other two women. Oh, no, no, he lives with woman one. He lives with woman one. Yeah. This all would have come out of lockdown anyway, presumably. Yeah. We would have had to choose.

Well, also, what's crazy is that our baby was born on our birthday. Our real birthday. Yeah, our real birthday, February 18th. Not October. Not the October one. And so it would have been, had he carried on, he would have carried on because, you know, he really would have. No, well, people like that think they're being very clever.

He loved the triple life. He loved deceiving people. It's excruciating. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's next level. It is next level. Yeah, it is next level. It's a movie.

It really is. And, you know, unfortunately, I've learned it happens to more people than you would believe. It isn't just the movies. No. You know, I think the hardest thing, I was in a park the other day. God, I didn't even tell you, Mim. There were kids playing with little apes and they're all playing in the dirt

and they're all varied ages and one of them goes, where's your dad? And I was just like, because the mother had seen me there like every day and I just go, oh, she doesn't have one. And then I just literally burst out crying because that was the first time that I'd ever had to, because she's 14 months, no one had ever asked me that question. Yeah, of course. So then I went home and I was like, oh, actually,

I need to change that answer. She does have one. He just lives. Yeah, but you can't give someone a mother. You know what? I think you're entitled to whatever answer is like, oh, actually, I need to change that answer. She does have one. He just leaves. You can't give someone a mother. You know what? I think you're entitled to whatever answer is good for you, actually, with that. I don't think he's lost any right to dictate how you paint him. And you know what?

Everybody who wants to be a mum or who finds themselves having a baby has a version of the ideal event. But then life never turns out quite like that anyway but also there's lots of ways to have a family around you and lots of ways to raise a baby well people tell you that they always tell you know flip it reverse it you know make it make it's like obama came from a single month yeah and they tell you that's what happens people tell you what happened you know they give you the silver lining but just something about being conditioned to this like partnership like I don't think anything ever prepares you for being a single mum like it's really yeah and also it's very recent so I think

yeah I understand why people would be saying that but I actually think you've got to go through the process of grieving for that life that is not what you expected. Yeah, no. And the joy in it is the relationship you have with your little girl. Yes. And that's where the magic is. But feeling all the spectrum of emotions, that's what happens with trauma, actually. Yeah, it's definitely trauma. I've got girlfriends that have had their families just, you know,

one of my girlfriends going through a horrible breakup and, you know, she just kept saying to me over and over, it's just not where I pictured myself. Of course. I wanted to be with my other half and raising our kids together. That's what was supposed to be happening. And I think reconciling that, it's shock, actually. Yeah, it is shock.

It's going through shock. Yeah. You know, and when something awfully traumatic happens, like if your other half had been in an awful accident and died. Oh, gosh, yeah. People understand the shape of that grief. Yeah, they do. It has a very obvious, but when it's something that's complex.

And involves deceit and this sort of web, then there's all this other stuff. And probably sometimes people have asked you a question, you're thinking, I don't want to be answering that. I'm really hurting. I don't want to be starting to you know marvel at the extraordinary situation i've inadvertently walked into you know i'm not in a film this is my actual life you know but the world is full of strange people but i still do believe most people are good they are that's why people react that way because it's not you're not alone but it's also not not that commonplace and that it must be hard to keep the perspective and it must be weird for you to see your sister having to go through that horrible yeah i was listening to a podcast

on a single mom survival the other night and it was this um girl who had been raped and um the baby came she actually took the morning after pill when she went to the hospital and um but sure enough she was still pregnant so she had the baby um and anyway long story short she was in university when this happened and she needed some money so she approached the father because she knew who he was because he worked in the diner at the school at the university and um get this the so then he gives support, like income or whatever, part of his income, and then he asks for custody of his child. So she was talking about how she manages that whole situation.

I was like, okay, maybe my situation isn't quite as bad. So that's why when you asked to do this podcast, I was like, look, you know what, maybe I think they've really helped me podcast. Like it's been my therapy. And when you put the post up, did people, was it things in the reaction that were helpful or did people you knew come forward? I thought the reactions were beautiful.

And, again, so many people saying thank you for sharing this. It felt freeing. This is a similar story. It was amazing, I thought. It felt freeing to me because I was so sick of all the questions of, where's the dad? Yeah. Yeah.

You're just going to also have to work out how to manage that in the future. Also for little Acey, I don't know what to say to little Acey. God. Well, we'll just have to work it out. Yeah, but the story will unfold. It will unfold. I know never to say a bad word about her father because you're never meant to say bad words.

Or his family. Or his family. She'll figure it out anyway. You don't have to worry about that. I mean, I think that's a good instinct, but actually I think it won't be that long before she'll start working out. You know, she'll ask her own questions, actually. Well, that's why I asked you, like, do you ever worry about what you're doing will have psychological effects on your child?

Yes, massively. Later on in life, like, I'm just high alert. Like, I have this massive hurdle. Yeah, but you know what? The thing I found. To manage it well. To cut you massive amounts of slack all the time. But doing enough is good enough, actually.

Doing your best. Yeah, it really is. And you can't... We are going to all do things where the kids turn to us and go, Oh, my God, you used to do X, Y, Z, and I hated that, or that really upset me. Sonny tells me one time, What did you say I called him when he was little?

It was something like I said, Oh, you were a bit cocky about something. Like I must have said it like years ago. And he still brings, I don't even remember saying it. But to him, he said something like it was the first time anyone had said anything to me that made me realize something just about me could be a really bad thing without knowing. And it was like, oh, terrible. But that's just it's gonna happen you're gonna do stuff but it's as long as you give them lots and lots of love and

and also communicate with them when yeah and and actually there's lots of talk and research about how positive it is to show them coming out of failure or things not going to plan you know your daughter's gonna grow up knowing you can go into the fire and walk out the other side. Yeah, I think that's beautiful. It's true. At least her bar won't be that high. Look at your role model. Huh?

At least her bar won't be that high as a whole, like, family unit. Oh, I don't know about that. She's going to be like, my mum is the strongest woman I know. Oh, yeah. Yeah, actually. When it comes to partners. Yeah, when partners, she'll probably, maybe she'll just have a kid with a donor. Yeah.

It's like, I really want to be a single mum. I don't know. No, because there's also other ways to have, you know, strong, great male people, you know, male figures in your life. There's always, I'm a really big believer in the sort of community aspect of raising children. They say that, don't they? Yeah, it takes a village.

It takes a village. It does. And look at the two of you together. It's so clear. I think that, don't they? Yeah, it takes a village. It takes a village. It does. And look at the two of you together. It's so clear. I think that all the time. I see them together, these gorgeous little cousins. They will always have each other live. I really hope so.

And, you know, half of their DNA is identical. Yeah, so they're kind of identical. So they're kind of like sisters anyway. So when you both heard girls, did you think, yeah, did you think, of course we do, yeah. Of course we've got like as many us. Oh, no, they look so different. You say that, but I don't think so.

I can tell they're both your babies. Really? So therefore they definitely look like each other. So, yeah. I think there's a definite strong gene pool. Oh, really? That's nice. Well, when I look at Ithaca, like older photos, I see ace.

But right now in the moment, Ithaca's just that little bit older? Yeah. Well, when I look at Ithaca, like older photos, I see ace. But right now in the moment, Ithaca's just that little bit older. Yeah. So much more hair that I can't really put it together. Yeah, she – Related, definitely. You know what I find crazy about the whole single motherhood and fatherhood because it happens to fathers as well, but I just don't understand the psychology behind people

that can purposely create a child and then walk away. Well, I mean, I suppose you'd have to look at, you know, what happened to them and their model. Because some people, and I, you know, not to generalise, but my experience of it anecdotally has been the fathers that find they if they feel like they don't have a map about the kind of dad they they want to be or what they're modeling for kids they can really freak out um yeah and it might be walking away well i don't obviously i can't relate to it but but for for you know for me it's the grandmother

oh yeah the whole family like Or even the other woman. The other woman. I get it. No, you're right. Like, you've had a son. You love your other granddaughters, you know. But I also think the other woman won. I can't believe she's just like, oh, he's working on himself now.

Oh, so she knows about all of it. Oh, yeah. Because when her sister found me. Yeah. But now this woman is ignoring Liv as well because Liv's like. Well, she just doesn't want to get involved. She doesn't want to think about that. She's working on her life with her two little girl,

or one little girl and one medium girl. Yeah, but the thing is her daughters have a sister. And it's like, come on, don't punish. Don't shoot the messenger. Just because Liv discovered it. Like, come on. There's like a whole, I don't get it. I don't get any of it well no i mean neither and also there's something very sort of old-fashioned about the idea that you you're the one who's sort of been shamed away from being able

to have the contact when actually he's the one who did it all right like he's just like had live been having an affair that she knew about had she known that he was a taken man, I completely understand the family turning their back. I get it because you're acting, you know, you're a homewrecker. Yeah, of course. But you had zero idea. In fact, you were, it was the absolute opposite. Unless she's been led to believe that that was the case. No, no, no, no, no, no.

There's no way she could believe. He lied on doctor's certificate saying he'd never had kids. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no. It's all true. He lied on doctor's certificate saying he'd never had kids. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. The lies are crazy. The fake everything, telephone numbers, everything. Maybe in the fullness of time you'll feel like they've kind of done your favour because you can just go, okay, it's me and my girl and the family we have

and let's do this. Well, we all joke about daddy's issues, don't we? And now, like, you know, I really, that's what I worry about. I worry about daddy issues, you know, abandonment issues and that kind of thing. That's going to be your worry in your next chapter of life. Yeah. I can understand the worry, but from where I'm standing, I don't.

You don't think? No, I don't see it because she's not got someone doing anything. She doesn't know any different. Kids are amazing. They don't, they never compare where they should have been or what should have been happening, you know. And there's so many different ways to have a family. And, you know, everybody's really good at dealing with that.

I mean, I've got a friend that just had a donor baby. And, you know, so there's no dad there. And there was never going to be the dad. And, you know, I don't think, I just don't think anyone's going to be, she's not going to ever fill in the gap of like another life. It's just all she would have known. There's a lot of women having donor eggs. I have a few friends that are doing it right now.

And I'm really interested. Well, you're thinking about giving one of your eggs. We got our eggs frozen when we were 30 or 29 because our career started to just take off. And we both went through a tour breakup, so we had a bunch of eggs on ice. And now a friend of ours who's had a horrible time getting pregnant, 13 miscarriages or misses on IVF and 13 years of trying to have a baby, and she just doesn't want to get an egg from a stranger.

She wants to know the medical history and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I'm contemplating giving her my eggs because I don't need them. And I think they're just eggs. I'm not a mother. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. I think mother is mothering. Would you give your egg away?

I think if it was a really close friend or, like, my sister or something, I'd definitely consider it because I feel a bit like you about that. Yeah. There's more to being a mother than the sort of biological bit. Yeah. I think I'm quite open-minded about all of it now. And I also feel the joy that i get now really like i have such joy from being a mother i had no idea i had never babysat any children before having kids

i didn't even want kids my friends had kids i gave them back i loved it do you know what i mean yeah yeah and now i have a kid and i don't know i love it it is the greatest joy it is it is actually and i was thinking as well about what you were saying, Liv, about your worries about your daughter and the issues and stuff. But I suddenly thought, hang on a minute. I can give you a really close to home example because my parents split up when I was only four. Oh, right. And they had a very, like, I can't remember any happy memories of their marriage together at all. And I can remember them splitting up.

Wow, you remember. But then when I was seven, my mum met my stepdad. My dad met my stepmum. Amazing. I started, my mum met my stepdad. My dad met my stepmom. I started, my brother was born. And now I always say to people, I've got two examples of happy marriages rather than one example of a bad one. Well, see, that's lovely.

You know, life goes on. And you never kind of sit around going, I never once thought my mum and dad should be together. In fact, I don't really understand how they were together. Wow. I'm happy to hear that. I just don't. Maybe you're not there yet. But it's actually, you know who you're really thinking about with the trust issues it's probably you yeah not your daughter because your daughter's gonna be fine

it's about you feeling like that but that will all come because you're talking about it you're not you're actually she's educating herself yeah yeah really is. Yeah, there's a lot of healing with exposure, isn't there? Yeah, there is. Yeah, and also you loved fully and now you've got to. You did. You loved truthfully and fully. Yeah. That's the beauty in this.

That is the beauty. So now you, and you have a little girl out of it who's made of love. Yeah. And then you'll start with yourself and grow with her with that. And they'll make your own future. Yeah, exactly. And one day you'll find yourself somewhere and think, this is exactly where I'm meant to be and none of this would have happened if that bozo hadn't done that.

And you'll be able to say, thank goodness, because it's led me to this bit and this is exactly the right thing now. I really believe in all that. It's your big trauma in your life. That's your big, oh, yeah you know i might get cancer or something else or gosh this is your trauma we're not gonna make a list of all the other possible traumas you might experience you don't have that many crazy traumas you'd be you'd be very unlucky yeah yeah i think it's still the best um breakup story i've ever heard no friend has been able to feel like i can trump this

it's the best dinner table yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah definitely add silence to the dinner table yeah wow what do you say next after that yeah i know i was just it was i know seeing friends reactions when because they obviously all knew him yeah yeah it was just the big one dad's reaction yeah oh family my grandmother's reaction yeah but really you're the one who'll never have a happier life and he's got to sit around stewing in whatever stupid mess with all these horrible people he's got around him so yeah yeah yeah yeah i think they're right together yeah they don't really know the full full. So I think he's definitely painted something that will play with them. How did you find your, do you think work helped you when you were doing bits and bobs? Oh, definitely.

Gosh, I think I would have probably, in a way, been that far pregnant because obviously I know it sounds horrible, but I couldn't terminate. Just the thought of it, the fact that I even wanted to when i found out was is now when i look at my little girl i'm like wow gosh horrendous that's where i believe what you were saying how the world does take care of you and it'll all make sense because i really do believe that i'm like i don't want to cry again but she was meant to be here yeah she's a little she's wonderful she's healthy she's strong she's fiery You know, I do compare it. My daughter's more gentle.

So I kind of think that's going to give her the balls to life. What was your question again? I was asking about how work. Oh, yeah. I think the work helped a lot. You can throw yourself into things. Being pregnant, like having a child and working was basically just like what got me through. I think being busy is always good.

You know, our mum has this famous saying. I think I call it the Flav Nervo saying. That if you need a job to be done, give it to a busy lady. Yeah, give it to a busy girl. I've actually quoted that just today, earlier today. Really? Yeah, yeah. I really like that as well.

As you clean up the mess of your five kids. Exactly. Women are naturally, supposedly quite good at, you know, multitasking and problem solving. And I think, you know, parenthood obviously brings a lot of those things to the fore. And actually, yeah, now that I've got a few kids, I kind of pride myself on like...

Being busy. Well, yeah, but also if something happens, like if, you know, one of them spills something or somebody's got no clothes i'm like come on problem solved it's got to be a way to get myself out of this um but um do you think you're having babies has influenced your creativity do you think it's changed how you feel about work oh yeah we're writing some really worldly heart deep deep. We're writing beautiful lyrics. Yeah, deep, deep, deep.

Do you remember that song? Rock-a-bye, baby. Oh, I love that song. No, but the I hope you dance. Oh, yeah, it's a country song. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was written for her daughter, the mother. She was a big country singer and a dancer, not singer, writer.

And that was her biggest hit. And when she was asked about it, she said, it was about my child. So I'm hoping we have a huge hit. Yeah, that would be nice, right? That would be so nice. For someone else or for anyone. It just changed us so much.

You know, we're writing baby nursery rhymes and we're really doing different things yeah which i really like yeah i think it's the next phase yeah we still i do miss djing i really do miss getting up there and just going crazy and feeling that energy and and of course we do our radio shows and things like that but it's it's not the same and did you ever feel when you first went back to do things in clubs and stuff did you feel weird about being a new? No, no, no, no. I only feel weird now.

I did on the dance floor and stuff. Really? Did you? Yeah. But you didn't have any of that? No. What about your sense of your actual physicality? Oh, that's horrible.

Because there's obviously a real look that goes along with the club scene. Yeah, it's horrible. It uses quite a lot of light crack. We do. A lot of plastic that sucks you in. Yeah, yeah. But how did you find all that? Because it's quite top It uses quite a lot of light crack. We do. A lot of plastic that sucks you in. Yeah, yeah. But how did you find all that?

Because it's quite topsy-turvy sometimes. Lots of baggier, baggier tops and learning to love your curves a bit more. They're not really curves in my case. They're just like plumps. Oh, come on. I think all of us are pretty lucky, though. We all bounce back pretty well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look at you, Sophie.

Five kids. I don't. Do you know what I found funny? Generous, but you guys always looked amazing. are pretty lucky though we all bounce back pretty like yeah yeah yeah yeah five kids but you guys always looked amazing i was i think honestly following you know your instagram and i always love you to see what you're up to but i do think it's always a place that makes me smile and you always look so happy and there's so much love that comes not just for you and your little ones but the two of you together it's like it emanates from the yeah we are a unit you are yeah she's my wife yeah yeah there you go you don't need a husband you already have a wife yeah but you know what we found quite interesting so going back to what you're saying about how we're in such a youth um a youthful business or youth obsessed the world is youth obsessed yeah and

particularly dance music particularly dance particularly for women in dance music oh gosh yeah you can be an older bloke dj yeah yeah yeah yeah but the thing is what i really the double standard in it all which i'm not mad about it was just interesting to see that when we um obviously we have to announce that we've got kids because it's so obvious that when we become pregnant, it made it onto our social media and to the outside world. But all these DJs that you wouldn't know had a herd of children at home all come up to you and start showing you baby photos. And it's like, wow, I've been touring with you like 10 years

and I had no idea that you had two kids at home. So suddenly you become part of this gang. And I think what I'm proud of and what I love about Nervo versus the mother of the male DJ. Yes, we tell people. We are transparent. We're happy. Whereas there's a lot of this kind of I think a lot of the blokes

aren't exposing the truth of their kind of family lives. They're like just sipping tequila bottles and stuff, but actually they're family men at home during the weeks. And I think I wonder how long it will be before hopefully that narrative can change. You know, I'm seeing a lot, a Brazilian DJ posting a lot about his newborn now. But I've certainly not seen the older guys who now have grown kids

ever put their family on social media. It's interesting. No, you're right. And it's... Us women have to. We do. But actually it sometimes makes you feel like you've been put in a little different box of like, okay. I mean, I remember when, because I had Sunny when I was 25.

Yes. So not like mega young, but relatively. Yeah, young. five yeah it's not like mega young but relatively yeah young and then I felt like after that doing the sort of pop music and the stuff that was you know trying to get played on radio one and this kind of thing I just felt like I'd put myself in this different sort of bracket and I did feel like it was do you think it just not that cool career uh yeah but I think um I think actually a lot of it I just sort of found my own feet with shaping it a different way. Yeah, of course.

But I think there was probably a few years where I felt like there were two different things trying to run along. And I felt fine about it. But the people I felt were not as welcoming. Do you know what I think is interesting? I bet your fans didn't feel like that. I think it's sometimes the people in the biz. I totally agree.

The record label execs, the men yeah that are around you and they're like oh you're not sexy anymore exactly she's a mom yeah she's a mom yeah whereas had had you spoken or been able to even really speak properly to your fans then i bet so many of them would have been like wow look at that well i think i think you're right about all of it because i think the narrative does has changed because one term i've always detested is that MILF thing. I'm like, don't chuck me a bone here. Like, you know, women can be all these things. What, you detest the word MILF?

I hate it. I love it. Really? Of course I love it. I mean, I love it. I want to be a MILF. No, I think it's so degrading, though. It's like you've got a term, like, as if you need a term

because otherwise if you're not called it, then you're not it, if you know what I mean. I don't like it. I think it's like you've got a term like like as if you need a term because otherwise I think if you're not called it then you're not it if you sort of mean oh I don't like it I think it's empowering okay all right yeah like dilf as well daddies you know I don't know I find that a positive okay all right I have to feel a bit different I don't know I've just always felt it's a bit like maybe because you were younger yeah you were young yeah you're a decade younger it just felt a bit like a bit pitying i suppose like oh don't worry i still would like shove off yeah oh yeah no no because you're probably still ready to be like not a milf just because you have a kid doesn't mean you're yeah an alien exactly did you find um

your friendship group changed when you became a mum? Because this is something we were talking about the other week. No, I think my really close friends are the same. But I think there was a bit when I had kids and they hadn't, where I felt like, I just used to feel like they'll get this one day when they've got kids. Why, you know, like if we, I don't know, arranged to have supper together and we this one day when they've got kids why you know like if we i don't know arranged to have supper together we were meeting at eight and i got there at eight

and then they got there at like 20 past and they'd be like i have to go home if i'd known you're going to be here at eight you know 8 20 i would have left i would have done the bedtime story and i would have had time for that and now i missed the bedtime story because you were late and now you don't you know and i just used to feel like they didn't get it that all those time all those things matter in a different way and leaving early and all that as well yeah and um and all the feeding and all the stuff that just takes over your brain so much yeah I did I felt like my friends didn't have most of them didn't have a kid till I had my third which is when I was 32 33 yeah and that was when everybody started having their first main mainly like yeah broadly speaking um except for my best friend who's just had her first last year it's was 32, 33. Yeah. And that was when everybody started having their first, mainly. Yeah.

Broadly speaking. Except for my best friend who's just had her first last year. It's really sweet. Wow. So, yeah, it's really nice. Actually, the year before last. Yeah, my godson, Finn, and Mickey are the same age. It's really cute. It's funny that you've been having kids throughout all of those women.

Yes. I'm still learning. I still feel like I do things differently with each of them and learn new bits and bobs. And, yeah, definitely. I still don't feel like I can't, like, high-five myself yet. And until they're all grown-ups. I think women and mothers, I just think they're amazing. I really do.

Do you think you'll have a sixth child? I'm really bad. I can't say, like, definitely not. But I think it's really unlikely because I honestly feel like I feel like my head's kind of a maximum capacity now. Yeah especially with Covid. Yeah exactly yeah when the lockdown happened I was like whoa this just wasn't a factor in the family planning so yeah but then I don't know I mean what's happened in the past is that they get to a little bit older than Mickey and I start thinking, oh, maybe another.

But then this time I'm like, he's quite a good one to end on. You know, he's a dancing baby. He's so gorgeous. He's a happy baby. He is happy. He is happy. And social. Yes.

Yes, he loves seeing you guys. He likes seeing new people, new faces. Yeah. I suppose the other thing I wanted to ask you actually, and I know this won't be not circumstantially, but do you think you're the sort of mums that you thought you'd be so far, these small people? Wow.

Good question. Great question. I think we're so early in the mummering, if that's even a word, mumming. Don't think it's a word. No, it's not a word. I think I'm not. I've surprised myself. I thought i would always be very strict and i think i am a pushover yeah like i'm trying to um i don't think you are i am no no like like i'm trying to stop breastfeeding like i co-sleep with my little

girl and she's still breastfeeding and she's 14 months i really thought i would stop by now i've tried a few times but i just you know it's just easier to keep her on the boob than you know then insist to get yeah but she calm herself without it so yeah i think i'm a lot softer which is a bit annoying because i want a well-behaved child i think that also comes being working mums because if we are working for six hours in the day or eight hours when we get home we just love those cuddles yeah so if you had to discipline and say no you need to eat all your vegetables and then you can have some pudding even food i do give her biscuits all the time because i feel like she's a bit skinny give her some fatten her up and do you do they come along to any work things?

Because you obviously used to bring along to everything, but do they actually come backstage at clubs and things like that sometimes? No, no, no. Unless we were going straight from the gig to the airport, they would stay in the trailer. Okay. Yeah. Which hasn't happened a lot, though.

Normally they're in the hotel. So we're actually only apart from them for the few hours of the show. And even now, do you still bringing them around with you? Yes. We don't bring them to the studio anymore because they're just too loud. They can't get anything done. Yeah, we don't get anything done. But, yeah, I mean, they're at home now, so straight after this we'll go home and see them.

Yeah. And do they like music? Do they kind of bop along to the clubby stuff? My girl loves it. She sings. Your girl's a little it. She sings. Your girl's a little performer. She's definitely got something.

I mean, your girl does too, but they're just chalk and cheese. They're different. Really? Yeah. You can really see that already? Already. That's so cute. Yeah.

Ace is more quiet. Much more quiet. Yeah. But she's stronger. When do you think you saw the character of your kids? Like what age? Some of it quite early, I think. Yeah?

But I think... Under two? Yeah, yeah. I'd say there are, like, little tiny things from when they're really small, but I think probably from about, yeah, like, 14, 15 months, you really start seeing quite the sort of bigger brushstroke things emerging and you think, OK, you're that kind of guy or this kind of guy. Yeah, definitely. And it's really nice. It's really exciting. You think, oh okay you're that kind of guy or this kind of guy yeah definitely and it's really nice, it's really exciting

oh you're that kind of character or I see you find that kind of thing funny or that's the sort of music you like or how you like to run around or toys you like to play with so yeah, Mickey's just sort of just getting into his stride I think and also it's normally when they stop being really sort of quiet and easy going and get really vocal

and Mickey's quite shouty which I find, I wouldn't be able to bring him to work now So it's normally when they stop being really sort of quiet and easygoing and get really vocal. Yes. Mickey's quite shouty, which I find is hard. I wouldn't be able to bring him to work now. No way. I used to bring him on tour and now it's like you're going to stay at home. Yeah. Just wouldn't get anything done. Well, we brought them on tour last week and we loved it

because I don't know about you, we just find we're cleaning the whole time. Whereas if they come on tour with us, hotels are fine. You can mess them up. I would never change a nappy without a changing mat on a bed. Just in case. At home. But at a hotel. Yeah.

I know. I know. No, it's definitely. And we ate in bed, right? Yes. We would never do that at home. No. Because then I have to change the sheets and I'm sleeping with crumbs for a week.

Exactly. Actually, that is what happens in my house because the kids and me have like toast or something in my bed just before. Oh, really? Oh, it's really annoying. Yeah. I'm a bit of a pushover basically. And so if it's like bedtime and then they say I'm hungry, I'll go, okay.

And then they'll watch like a little cartoon and eat some toast or something. But is Richard more the disciplinary parent or he both pushovers? He's quite, no, he's probably a bit more I'd say I'm like the more everyday strict like get cross about things or be relaxed about things and he's the one the bigger like okay now this has to stop

and he'll be kind of quiet quiet quiet and then just be like so basically if you've made a big booboo then that's like serious whereas for me the kids are like well I've sort of seen you angry before. I know it doesn't amount to much. They're not scared of me, which I find very disappointing. I think that was how our family was, actually.

Our mum was the everyday disciplinary. And our dad was the, when he spoke, you had to listen. Yeah. We all listened. Yeah, it's funny. And I think we're probably more traditional than I would have imagined we'd be. Yeah. Yeah.

Because you are a quirky couple, but yeah, when it comes to raising kids. Yeah, you kind of revert back to things sometimes. Do you think you can imagine your girls when they're older, like DJing together? Yes. Yes, definitely. Absolutely. You have to keep a book ready.

I would love that. Me too. Mama Jo right here. Kris Jenner 2.0. I would love that. Me too. Mama Jo right here. Kris Jenner 2.0. I would love that. I would love nothing more than for our career to morph into the managers of our kids. They loved it.

Yeah. We're so lucky that we're family and we've somehow built a career in music, you know, because the arts, the biz is difficult. I mean, you're lucky also because even though Richard's not your twin, he's your partner, so he's kind of been with you for a long stint, right? Did your mum help you through your music at all? Because she's a personality, isn't she? Yeah, but she's more a TV person.

She used to present the children's TV programme. So no, I think that was kind of in a way what was what attracted me to the idea of working in music not just the fact that i love music but my parents both worked in telly so it was similar enough that they were not phased by the fact i went to music but it was different enough that it always felt like mine your iron great yeah so they've never really i've sort of been the one to teach to tell them about how the music industry works and things like this so they they don't freak out because they know vaguely the peripheral things are the same,

but the core of it's always been mine. Do they help you with big decisions like finding a manager or a record label or anything like that? No, but I'll talk them through everything. But no, my parents normally have quite a simplistic idea of like, well, why don't you just release this? Or why don't you just tell them you want to do that? And it's me going, well, I have to, you know.

It doesn't work. Yeah, different mechanisms that go on just go number one exactly yeah I know oh I know the disappointing thing

you guys just think everything should just be massive all the time yeah sorry about that it doesn't work like that no it really doesn't yeah yeah

my brother's a musician as well so he's a drummer so I think the two of us are kind of in a similar industry which is cute

my brother comes on tour with me sometimes oh that's cool yeah it's a full family affair it is I know I love it though that's the beauty of it and because you two have always done your work together presumably a lot of it never felt like work and you've had you've learned together and always had each other as counsel oh yeah it's really good it's everything it is that's been the um the reason why we're still in it. The secret to our endurance. Yeah. I think. Definitely.

And how significant do you think it is that you both became mums at the same time? I think it's really, I think it's... It was a lucky, look, it was a mistake. It was a lucky mistake. Well, we planned it a little bit, but it wasn't really... What happened was when Mim got pregnant, we all were kind of, we knew you were trying. You got pregnant on your second go, like your second month. So then it was like, oh, wow, you're pregnant.

And then we started looking ahead at the calendar and was like, well, you'll have to take this much time off, you know, five months. And my boyfriend and I had been talking about it for like almost two years. So we were like, you know, let's also try. And then we were lucky enough to get pregnant really easy as well. So it did a great thing. It did just work out. Yeah.

I think more than that will just work out. It's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Oh, thank you so much. Lovely. Yeah, that was fun. Thank you so much.

so that was Mim and Liv telling their story um well the beginning of their story is mothers but it'd be quite cool to catch up with them a few years down the line I think um but I think you'd agree with me that those daughters they have are going to be pretty fearsome strong women they've got amazing role models. And not to forget as well that, you know, as with any aspect of parenting, not all mothers are maternal, not all fathers are paternal, but also you do not have to be a father or a mother to be capable of nurturing, supporting. I think someone used the phrase mother hearts, but there's father hearts too, aren't there? We can all have father figures and mother figures in our lives, whether or not they have their own children. I know I was thinking today, because it's Mothering

Day on the Sunday, I was thinking about the women that have helped me, or not just women, men too, but I suppose I was thinking mainly of women who'd helped me with how I set the framework of becoming a mum myself when I first had Sunny. I was 25 and didn't really have a lot of, I don't think I had any girlfriends. I had a baby at the time. And some of the women that helped me the most, people like our nanny, Nanny Claire, who was our nanny for 11 years. And she doesn't have any of her own children. But my word, she really helped me become the mother I am now. her own children but my word she really helped me become the mother I am now um and also how cool is it that you can have babies and also be like really incredible international DJs I think that's

pretty darn incredible and I know we did talk about it in the interview and say about how social media doesn't portray uh real life which we all course, but, but it does show you a little bit of how flipping fantastic women live, look, even after having these very small babies, which I think is really cool. I think it's really inspiring. They're, they're very, um, yeah, they're just women I'm really, really fond of. And I'm, um, I think they're really thriving, not surviving these days. That's all good. Um, oh, well, I'm, I am going to say next week it's Ellie Taylor because we know it is'm i am gonna say next week it's early taylor because we know it is i've already recorded it and it's done and she was great and i see that

she's now got her book uh my uh what's it my how to ruin your life in the simplest way possible uh and it's all about having a baby and how i think she might have called it my baby and other mistakes but now i'm walking away from the house i haven't got my laptop in front of me i'm pretty sure that's what it's called anyway if you go on early tailors page you can pre-order the book it looks really cool it's sort of the insight into how she found motherhood when she wasn't really sure she wanted to be a mom at all um anyway i'm really rambling now and you know what get this this will make you laugh i haven't even picked up the ketchup and the milk yeah you kind of knew that would be the case didn't you just ended up just taking advantage you know it's really nice out here it's really quiet um and besides you know maybe i'll say the first five shops i tried

didn't have said items uh yeah i'm using it as an excuse right i'll let you get on with the rest of your day thank you as ever for your time and lots of love and whoever you are happy supportive person day to you because I'm sure whether or not you're a parent you've helped someone on their way to be a parent themselves just because you know the very fact you're listening to this means you're interested in other people and the experiences they have that makes you lovely and on that note, see you soon. Thank you.