Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 27: Giovanna Fletcher

Episode Date: March 29, 2021

Giovanna Fletcher is a writer, presenter and blogger who has a hugelysuccessful podcast Happy Mum Happy Baby. When we chatted I asked aboutthe course which took her to marrying her childhood sweetheart, TomFletcher, she also told me how her three boys loved watching her onI'm a Celebrity and we compared notes on how many people ask her, asthe mum of sons, whether she really wanted a girl! Aaaaghhh! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello to you. I speak to you from the past. In my time, it is Saturday night. in my time it is Saturday night I am getting ready to do a DJ gig actually but don't get too excited it's just in our kitchen of course yeah we're doing a DJ gig live on TikTok and then yesterday night we did a disco which was fun we're going to stop doing them soon and I'll miss them

we're going to do our last one on April the 9th, if you fancy it. And I'm taking requests. So if you've got any song you'd like me to sing, let me know. Oh, hold on a second. Yes, Ray? Okay, thank you.

Yeah, I'll watch that. Okay. Anyway, I had a funny thing. I did actually leave the house once this week. I went to sing... Hold on, Ray. I'll do it in a minute.

I went to sing Groove Jet on The One Show. And it's quite funny because I left the house. So, you know, singing outside of the kitchen. And guess what they've made the set look like? That's right, a kitchen. And it wasn't even as nice as my kitchen. It was sort of photo, what do you call it, a computer-generated kitchen with, like, some bread out on the side. you call it, computer generated kitchen with like some bread out on the side.

I mean, come on. I would never leave bread out on the side when I'm doing a disco. Anyway, my guest this week, ah, well, she actually did a very helpful thing since we've spoken because I have to confess,

I think if I was speaking to you a week ago, I would have probably said, hold on, Ray Ray. I'm nearly done you a week ago, I would have probably said, hold on, Ray Ray. I'm nearly done, Sweet Pea. I probably would have said I was speaking to Giovanna Fletcher, but she very helpfully put a little post up saying that it's Giovanna to rhyme with Savannah. So yes, Giovanna Fletcher. So I had a lovely conversation with Giovanna. We've met a few times over the years. She's always been completely gorgeous.

And yeah, I wanted to speak to her because she obviously came across so brilliantly and I'm a celebrity and has been doing such brilliant things with her podcast, Happy Mum, Happy Baby. And yeah, I thought I'd turn the tables and ask her some questions and it was very very nice and yeah so i'm gonna be sitting down having a listen in while i'm i'm actually dressed in a

ridiculously uh ott party outfit for someone who's only staying in their kitchen for the evening um and i don't know what ray wanted i'll have to go and see what he wanted i don't actually know he gave me some things to be washed while i was speaking to you. But I don't think that's why he's persistent in speaking to me. Anyway, I would normally say I'm going to go and make a cup of tea, but I'm actually thinking I might go and find Richard and see if he can make me a margarita. What do you think? Is that a good idea? If you're listening to this on a Monday morning, you'd probably say no. If you're listening to this on a Friday night, you'd probably say yes. All right, darlings, see you you on the other side thank you for coming and thank you for tuning in

thank you very much for speaking to me this evening not at all thank you I was really looking forward to it because I wonder if you have this with your podcast where it's basically like the best chats I've had in the last year I've probably been recording my podcast um completely yeah it's a bit of space and time yeah and I think when when we started making them remote and doing it like this I was really worried

about what they would be like because I think there's something about being face to face with people and and reassuring them that everything's fine you're in a set you know it's I think there's something very different about being together but actually it's been incredible it's been so nice having these conversations and having something um that can take you out of the little bubble that you're in yeah and remind you that everyone is going through a similar situation or the same experience in terms of COVID but different versions of it different variations um so I yeah I have found the podcast chats really quite therapeutic and lovely to just get away from it all really and uh to have that bit of a breather

yeah and I suppose as well we've sort of been cast into this very strange space where your day job and who you are outside of parenting and the parenting is just all, the lines are blurred. So I think for everybody, you've sort of had this, everything is sort of thrown into real, well, it sort of throws it into relief how sort of murky it is in a way because you're suddenly thinking, I don't really know.

There's been so many times where I felt like where I end and the other part of me takes over for going to work or doing motherly stuff, it's just, there's no definition. And I found that I definitely struggled with that in the last year. Definitely. And I think there's this big thing about how much you're used to doing, especially creatively, how productive you used to be. And I think there was a thing early on in lockdown

that I've just realised I'm not going to be that productive. I'm not going to be doing as much as I was and I have to kind of lower my expectations of myself, which was fine for the first lockdown, I would say. But as it's gone on, you then have that frustration of not being able to do it anymore and kind of when when can I do the work that I'm meant to be doing and you know commit to the stuff that I've already signed

up to do and in terms of books and things like that so um it has been really challenging working out how to juggle those things um and uh yeah feel like you're doing anything in the way that you normally would whether that's parenting or work I know I mean are you giving anything 100% I know I keep on feeling like you know when there's um there's cartoons where there's like a little kid running at a big kid and the big kid's just holding their forehead they're sort of running with all their might and the little one's just not getting anywhere because that big hand's on your forehead I felt like that a few times that's so true but I want to talk to you about well there's so true but I want to talk to you about

well there's so many things I want to talk to you about but I'll start with what was happening in your life when you had your first baby what were you up to so I was writing books by that point so I'd written um I think I'd written two I'd written uh Billy and Me and You're the One I Want um yeah because I can remember having to go back so I had to sort out what I was doing with Buzz when he was six months old because I had a deadline and I had to get back to writing. So that's why I know that. But yeah, I was writing and my day was very relaxed, I would say.

So I would get up in the morning, probably around 10-ish, come downstairs, have breakfast, have a shower, get into a fresh pair of pajamas uh look over the you know go on social media or see what's happening in the news read over what i'd done the day before have breakfast have lunch then maybe have a have a little nap because you know i'll be tired by then uh and then probably get to work about three o'clock in the afternoon and then work solidly so I feel like my routine back then uh was very different to what it is now now I feel like every second that I'm not with the kids has to has to count it has to be I have to be doing I have to make sure that it's

not especially if it's not if they're not at school if they're being looked after by someone else I have to make sure that it is for a purpose um which is why I'm awful at things like getting my hair done or anything like that it's just you know how do you I don't know how you fit all that stuff in at all I've just it's um yeah so I don't so every time I go to the hairdresser I'm like yeah I've not been for a year sorry wow this is resonating with me hugely yeah exactly it's hard isn't it like knowing how you fit everything in and what the priorities are and um and that you know what that's just something that we've put on ourselves because no one has told us that that is the way that we have to live our lives yeah that is just how we feel um so yeah so yeah my days pre-kids were very, very different. Quite chilled, I would say, because writing is a very...

I guess you do get a bit frustrated at times, especially if you're on deadline and you keep pushing forward. But yeah, I would say... Yeah, I'd say it was quite chilled, carefree. But also focused, I would say yeah and I totally I've used exactly that same phrase about making every minute count when you're away for your kids once you're working and you have them because yeah you feel this onus of like well it's got to mean something what's the point of being apart from them if you're just gonna sort of

you know not be productive so you do kind of get that I think it actually really helped my my focus actually with my work I do yeah so you were on a deadline with a with a book when you were when you had buzz when you just had yeah yeah so I think if I think about time I think I would have had a book out a few months after he was born um which would have been the second book and then I would have had to yeah I would have to start writing so that it could be in with my publisher by the following oh or maybe I just yeah I think maybe I just handed one in I just handed one in that's right Because then that book was out a little bit after Buzz was born. And then I had to start writing for the next one. So yeah, it did feel like there was a countdown

in terms of me when I had to get back to my desk. And we sorted it out with Tom's mum, actually, that she was going to come and look after him a few days a week. And at first I did that typical thing where, and also I found it really hard because, we'd sorted out at five months and for me that's when Buzz his personality really started to shine through yeah you know as you start to see more of who they are the interaction is just amazing the connection is so much richer and all of a sudden

something's come along or not all of a sudden because you know it's there but it's sudden it just feels sudden and you're not going to be able to be there with them all the time um but we were lucky that tom's mum uh we were able to sort of well employ her really and um and she could look after buzz um which was brilliant knowing that he was going to be with a grandma and someone that he really loved. And they still have an amazing bond now. But it's that thing of once you have this idea of what, you know, the plan in motion, what it's going to be like. And then once it's actually there and it's happening, it really hurts. It hurts knowing that that is the plan and you're

not going to have your baby a few days a week. And I try to do that typical thing of having Buzz here every day. So if Debbie was looking after him, I'd take him off for a feed and I'd put him down for a nap and I was still trying to do all of those things. So in the end, he started going to her house, which still meant I had to go off and express and stuff,

but it meant that when he wasn't here, I could probably focus a lot better and get a lot more work done because you're always otherwise your ear is always in the other room is he crying? is she okay? is she getting a little bit stressed with it?

you know it's just and then for her as well I think if they were in her house she could do things her way and not feel like I would be there listening in from the other room judging or worrying so yeah so that is what we started doing yeah um yeah I mean and and it was it helped because we could get the job done yeah and it's actually it's interesting what you're saying

there about that thing where you know their personality just starts to come out because we're so encouraged to think about taking that time off when they're tiny and then getting your work set up actually in the bit where their needs really grow. And I remember working with a really good girlfriend of mine. She's a makeup artist. And she had kids that were probably already in double figures when we started working together.

And she used to really struggle leaving them. And then when, you know, we went away for work. And when I had Sunny, I remember her saying to me it gets it gets harder as they get older to leave them and she was so right you know a child who's older saying like crying you know my two-year-olds around it really perfected the double that you know the big sort of bottom lip quiver and tears because that leaving them at that point you know when they're small you can sort of yeah you know that a lot of their needs are quite easily met in terms of you know right temperature food in their tummy all those kind of things sleep when they get older they're a lot more aware of where you are and also the

things you can do with them grow all the different scope so missing out on stuff can be can be tricky well katlin morano she said on the podcast podcast about the teenage years and how when it comes to teenagers, they might work up the courage to come to you once about a problem. And if you are not there for that one time, then that's it. That opportunity has gone. Yes. So, yeah, it is interesting to think about how their demands or needs of us will change as time goes on. Yeah, I think that's true about the teenage thing, actually.

And I remember when you were talking, it reminded me when I was watching you on I'm a Celebrity, which we were hooked on in our house. It was brilliant. And there was one bit where you were missing the kids. And I can't remember who it was, but they said to you something like, yes, they will have changed so much in the time you've been like wow thank you that's very comforting they barely know you you'll come back and they'll be like who's that lady it was weird though because for two of them I hadn't seen them for five weeks

so for the two-year-old I'd seen, it was about three and a half weeks with him. But for Buzz and Buddy, it was five weeks and it felt so huge, such a huge amount of time. And I can remember coming through the door and it is that weird thing of, it was a bit like they'd changed. Like their face, you just kind of want to touch them. And it's that thing, I don't know if you've ever had it,

but when you give birth and you take your baby home to your other children, they all of a sudden seem huge. It's that weird thing, isn't it? Time and your memory and everything, it's all kind of warped somehow. But yeah, I can remember. So I came home and the Christmas tree was already up. And the two-year-old just kind of pointed at the and go look tree i was like oh hi you're talking and everything um but yeah but that then fades you know and that's you know it what's the longest that you've

ever been away from your boys um i've done i think the longest is actually about 10 10 days yeah um but i remember when i can't remember who it was one of them was very little and i was about to go away for work and it wasn't my first baby it might have been the third or the fourth one and i was sort of seeking solace on the internet so i sort of googled you know leaving my baby i think i was actually breastfeeding him at the time so i was like you know looking and it was just basically all these um forums of women saying well you can go away and express milk like this and you can I mean personally I couldn't bear to leave my baby but of course you could there's definitely ways you could do it it's just like that very subtle like yeah really like thanks a lot for

that like there's real solidarity I think I think in times of need probably stay away from those forums they don't give you what you need the boys were so excited to have me back and the first thing they wanted me to do was sit with them and watch I'm a celeb they wanted to tell me about all the things that I'd done yeah and actually I think I think isn't it great that my kids have been able to see me in another role not just as mummy as someone who goes off the edge of a cliff who isn't scared of snakes and spiders you know so I do feel like actually it was so great for them to see me doing that oh yeah it's brilliant and not just that for you five weeks away like look at the experience you got from it and how significant that is in your memories but for them

five weeks, you know and they could see you as well, you weren't actually gone gone, you know they could still check in with what you're up to and be super engaged, it's not like I know one time when Richard went away a lot when Sonny must have been about two months two years old rather and I had to keep

Richard so present while he was gone. He was away for about six weeks and I had to keep going, oh, Daddy does this and Daddy does that, just to keep him part of Sonny's everyday world. But Tommy could just say, look, there she is. That's what she's doing today. They'd literally watch me at breakfast every day just to see what I've been up to the night before.

Which is brilliant. And I think that is inspiring to them to see you not being scared and jumping with both feet and doing something for yourself like that. I mean, who doesn't want their mum to look like she's fearless? That's just, that's really inspiring, isn't it? And I wonder, I was thinking, is it right that you have been together, Tom, since you were 13? We met when we were 13, yeah. We met at Sylvia's when we were 13, at the Sylvia Young Theatre School. And we dated for three days, and then he dumped me for his ex-girlfriend.

Oh. Yeah. Sorry to remind you of that time. No, no, don't worry. And then we spent two years going, I like you, I don't like you, I like you, I don't like you. And then in year 11, we started going out again. We went out for a year,

and at the end of the year, we broke up. And then we went our separate ways for about two years and I dated someone else he dated a few people um and I started Rose Bruford and he started the band around the same time um and I was dating someone who was in the Metropolitan Police at the time and he was just not bothered about what I was doing couldn't care less whereas Tom was just always engaged really excited about what I was doing, couldn't care less. Whereas Tom was just always engaged, really excited about what I was doing. And actually, before I started college, I went away to Namibia for a month to do this gap year thing.

And it was amazing. And I had no phone, I had no way of contacting anyone. And Tom's 18th birthday was around that time. And I spent the whole month thinking about Tom, not the boyfriend that I had. And then when I came home, the boyfriend wasn't bothered about me starting Rose Bruford or Rose Bruford is a theatre school yeah and he just wasn't bothered about any of that didn't change his life in any way um and just carried on being him whereas Tom found it all fascinating was

writing me letters to my flat and um just being adorable um and yeah I don't even know because it's not even like me and my ex had any big arguments I just literally on the drive over to him one night so I'd done the whole week in Sidcup where the college is and um literally on the drive over to him on a Friday night I just thought I'm I'm breaking up with him tonight it was just like a like a it was such a clear thing I hadn't even thought about until that point um so I broke up with him and Tom was straight away kind of going come over come over to ours and I was like no no I'm good I'm gonna go out with my sister and get really really drunk um and then a couple of weeks later I went over to his and, yeah, and actually I met the band then

who, they hadn't, they'd started recording and Dougie, when I first met him, he said, Tom talks about you non-stop. Aww.

I was like, aw. So yes, we've been together now since we were 18 and I'm 36. So a long time now. That's pretty cool.

It's getting serious. Yeah, we are, yeah, I think things are serious these days i would also say that if you go away on a gap year trip to nabibia and you're not thinking about your boyfriend you think that your ex is probably there's some big clues there but that's the thing isn't it but i think sometimes when you know with our phones and everything like that and everywhere life is so busy when you're forced out of your comfort zone and you're somewhere else, thoughts that you wouldn't necessarily have had time and space to let in before suddenly come flooding in.

And every year, actually, I do a charity check, a charity trek with Copperfield. So we take 100 people, men and women, who have been affected by breast cancer or are just hitting a landmark age-wise and they're just like, I want to do something for me. We raise money and awareness for Copperfield. And it is absolutely incredible

and something that I wish everyone would do just because it's that thing of taking you out of your comfort zone, putting you somewhere completely different, making you focus on something that is not your day-to-day. And your mind and the conversations that you have, it's free to just do and say anything yeah and um so i love it i love it when you you're not focusing on anything other than what your feet are doing because your mouth and your heart just kind of let loose a little bit yeah walks are good for that generally aren't they you can sort of i think as well they say that um actually it's quite good for older kids as well that when

you're walking because you haven't got that eye-to-eye contact, it's not at all confrontational, and that can be quite a good time to get things out of the older kids as well because you're both sort of focused on there's a task at hand and it's quite gentle and you're out in the open so it's not going to turn nasty and it's just quite a nice space really. But when you had those breaks from Tom when you were younger, did you always kind of have it in the back of your mind

that you were going to get back together? I think so. So we stayed in touch the whole time and he'd send me songs that he'd written, ones that were called things like Leap of Faith. Or like, we're going to get back together one day. And we'd meet up and there was always this there was always this thing um and yeah i think so i we we split up around the same time that my parents split up and i and i do think that

looking back is completely connected and um you know i think in my head my the people that I look to as to see what a relationship was they had had fallen apart so for us and and to be honest my mum and dad are amazing now they're great friends we're so lucky um but I do think that kind of made me look at me and Tom a little bit and I think I was going through a bit of a rebellious stage off the back of that um so yeah so we split up but stayed in touch yeah maybe you needed it as well you know I know that's the thing isn't it because so many people that space we had between 16 and 18 I know we weren't legally allowed to do lots of things but we went to clubs but you know we did all those things and got drunk and had no responsibilities and we didn't need to check in with anyone and um so I do think um that it was good for us to have that time apart yeah I wonder

as well how it'll help you parent that bit of your kids life that you've known each other since that time of your lives because that's quite uh I mean every everybody kind of goes back and reflects on that time in their life when they get you know when you get to that point of having a teenager you can't help it you're not you know the amount of times I go oh I remember when I was 13 or you know this you know it just all comes flooding back but being able to know each other really like properly

at that time is actually quite unique isn't it for your mum and dad to be like oh do you remember when we did this well Tom at 13 was literally snogging every single girl in our class. Everyone. He snogged one girl before school, one girl in the morning break, one girl at lunchtime, one girl in the afternoon break,

and one girl after school. But now that you know that you got together properly, very, like, relatively soon after, you can see he was just, you know, this is his experience of, like, other women. There we go. 13-year-old snogs. So he's got something to reflect on of, like, hey, I'm experienced, you know, this is it. That was his experience of like other women. There we go. 13 year old snogs. So he's got something to reflect on of like, hey, I'm experienced, you know.

So you must have had about 11 years when it was just the two of you then, by my- Yeah, a long time. And I do think there's that thing as well of when you do get together really, really young, I think it is you forget that you're the ones that have to make that the decision the leaps to get engaged get married have kids I don't know I feel like when you get together older you already know that that's

what that's what you want you already know that that's where you are um and you know I think I was ready to get married and have kids a lot sooner than Tom was. I say I think, I know I was. You know, I was acting in the wife role in the house. We moved into this house when we were 21. Tom was 20, I was 21. So I had years of playing the wife, if you like, but not being the wife.

And I think that did get to me a lot. And, you know, it's that thing of everyone would say, oh, when are you going to get married? And I think I found that quite frustrating to be honest but at the same time I'm glad that it all panned out as it did because you know if time is slightly different then maybe I wouldn't have started writing yeah you know I needed that extra little bit of time to get to that so then the career was already kind of taking off before kids were on the cards, you know. So, yeah, so if it had gone any other way,

then I definitely wouldn't be doing what I am now. And was writing always the thing you wanted to do? What were you doing at Sylvia Young? Well, acting. I was doing acting and loved performing and singing. And so Rose Brufeller did an acting degree. I came out of there, did some plays and stuff, loved it. But then suddenly following the recession, everything stopped

and the jobs weren't filtering through. So I started doing book reviews for Heat magazine. Then I started working for a few different magazines, which is how we once met working when I was working on my magazine and then because I was doing book reviews for heat magazine and also for my own blog I got invited to a book launch and I met an agent and she just said to me have you ever thought about writing yourself and I thought at the time I was a bit like look that's something that people that went to oxford or cambridge did not someone who went to drama

school and pretended to be a penguin in a field that's a bit of a stretch you pretend to be a penguin what in a film in a field and a field oh yeah wow that's very that's actually quite hard how many actors could do that not many you'd be a confused overheating penguin and i used to tell us all the time because my penguin would eat frankfurters cold that every every lesson that we had on animal studies a few times a week yeah is this that thing where you have to choose your animal and then stick to it well they give us our animals yeah you've got given an animal we got given an animal we had to study them stick to them uh and then um at the end of the term we would be put in a zoo for the rest of the students to come around and sort of watch us in our natural animal habitat do they eat frankfurters in real life no but they are my fish substitute okay okay okay

you had to ask. I was thinking I've never seen that happen, but you're the one who studied penguins. You're the expert. But they're a bit wobbly, like a fish, I thought. Plus, I think actually in my student haze, the thought of just eating frankfurters and having an excuse to do it, it was quite nice.

I get it now. So I didn't understand that the frankfurters were a real thing. I thought you meant that you were just imagining you were a penguin that liked frankfurters I was like well I didn't know you could improvise that they were a real thing and a substitute for fish I can see it now I understand now because if you hadn't done that it would have been raw fish yeah exactly I don't think I was into sushi then. But yeah, so it was quite a leap going from being a penguin eating frankfurters to writing books. But I was talking to a different author one day,

really randomly, who was just saying to me about other people that she'd met who whenever she says that she's an author, they'd always say, oh, I'd love to be an author. I'd love to write a book. And her advice was always,

well, just do it. And so I came away from that and I just thought you know what let's just let's just see what happens so I wrote out three different summaries sent them off to the agent I talked to because she gave me her email address and just said if you ever need any advice let me know and we spoke about it one idea just seemed a bit stronger so I started writing it um and then 16,000 words and I think she said that she'd like to represent me which was amazing and I just kept pushing through and that's the amazing thing at that time we didn't have the responsibilities and anything like that so I was

able to just get on with it and pour a lot of love in and and there is something really wonderful about writing a first book because you don't have any expectation on yourself, any expectation on anyone else. All you're doing is storytelling, which is what every book should be, but it does, that leaves you, I think. It's like an album. You know, you always, you know what the fans want,

what the readers want, what the listeners want. So it does change. So I think first books are very, very different. And yeah, I I mean there were many rejection letters uh but thankfully uh Penguin gave me my first two book deal um and I've been with them ever since which is incredible that's amazing and actually I mean from the outside looking in I can totally see that you don't have to have gone to Oxbridge to think you can write but actually you're right about that thing of people saying oh I wish I could do that and sort of feeling like it's somewhere somewhere else and

not everybody does take that leap on of faith on themselves or or um I feel like they've got the right time actually um yeah it's quite it does feel like quite a big undertaking to write a book well I think you can think that other people have the right skill set and that you don't have the right tools but actually as soon as I realised that, especially the books that I love to read, a lot of it is first person. A lot of it is a character telling a story. And if you can put yourself in someone's shoes

and watch them walk and be them as they walk around. Like I do a lot of acting out when I write, you know, how are people touching things? How are they feeling things? You know, so I I think I probably write books in a way that works for me doesn't mean it works for everyone else but then that's that's being creative as well isn't it I think um I think whenever when things are creative and we're taught to paint by numbers I think actually that sucks the joy out of everything

yeah and that's not why you're not a creative person to you know paint by numbers no and i think um i know that i mean my mum she didn't start writing until much much later in life so she signed a book deal when she was 60 which i thought was really cool because it was just really unexpected well it made a lot of sense but it was a nice new twist in you know what was going on with her and she's a very natural writer but said that at the beginning she had this feeling of like, how does an author act? What does a writer do? How do they go about their day?

And then she realised, oh no, it can just be me and I can factor in the things that I like to do and just make time for the writing and the way I want to do it. I think that's quite important to make that distinction really in your own head. It's your thing.

No one's watching you when you're writing. You can just do it yourself. Yeah. And I think the more people that you meet who are writers and that write books, you find out that everyone has their own way of doing it. Some people have kids and they just bosh it out in that first term back at school.

That's the first edit. They'll bosh that out and then spend some time finessing it afterwards. Other people are even quicker than that. And I've got one friend who will write 10,000 words a day on a first draft just to work out what her structure is and whether that goes into a first draft or whether that gets chucked away.

I think it varies every time. I would say I'm quite a slow writer. I'm a slow writer, but I've got a target every day of, well, 2,000 words so it's slow but I guess I keep going until I get that target done yeah um but yeah uh yeah and I think once you realize that everyone's got their own way of doing things it's really freeing yeah and how does your confidence grow when you've done more than one book? Second book is a nightmare. Second book is horrible. Because you have that expectation, you know, and anything, like writing anything that's a little bit saucy, I'd kind of go,

my dad's gonna read this, because my dad's one of my biggest fans. So I was a bit like, oh, I can't, because if he reads it, even though it's the character saying it, he knows that I wrote it, and therefore it's in my head and oh my God. But once you get rid of that, and also there's that thing of, I always felt like with the second book, my publishers would realise that it was a total fluke. First book, you know, and I spent

my advance on bookshelves, being the nerd that I am, it was behind me in like this nice wooden bookshelves carrying books. And I thought, oh my God, if they ask me for my advance back, I won't be able to give it to them back because they're bookshelves carrying books. And I thought, oh my God, if they ask me for my advance back, I won't be able to give it to them back because they're bookshelves now. So I think I panicked a lot when it came to second book.

Loads of friends I know were exactly the same. Me and Dorno Porter actually were writing second books around the same time. And we kept messaging each other about getting on a plane to Mexico and just leaving. So it's good to know that you're not on your own. And I always said that by the time I got to the third book,

I would say that I was an actual author. But now I am definitely an author. And did the acting bug ever come back into your life? I've done bits. I've done little bits. I did a Christmas carol in London, which was absolutely incredible. And then Tom put the Christmasaurus on stage at the Apollo, which was amazing.

So we did a run a few Christmases ago before Max was born. And I absolutely would love to do it. I remember that being on. I didn't realise you were acting in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Tom was in it. I was in it.

Tom Sister Carrie was in it. Harry was in it. Matt Willis was in it, I was in it, Tom Sister Carrie was in it, Harry was in it, Matt Willis was in it. Just great fun. So it became, it was that mixture of kind of us being us, but also then becoming the characters and telling the story,

which was great. And so yeah, so that was great fun. And I do think it is something that I will go back to at some point. And the great thing about acting is that there are always lots of different characters of lots of different ages yeah um and I feel like I am using my creativity in a different way right now but there's nothing like it you know like when I take the podcast on tour and there's an audience there's nothing like speaking getting a reaction

yeah the podcast is huge I mean is that, how did you get started into all that? What prompted you starting your podcast? So I was, so I was writing fiction. And then when I was going on tour with that, people started asking me whether I'd ever think about writing nonfiction and write about being a mum. And I guess I was sharing honestly online. And I had a blog on Hello for a while that was all about pregnancy and and then becoming a mum and yeah I was sharing honestly which I felt wasn't there so much in that space I felt like everything was just amazing in motherhood I don't feel that didn't feel like what I was experiencing was being reflected you know I felt like everything was like crisp white sheets and big smiles and and I was there with you know dribbly boobs and you know just not the same picture as everyone else um so I started talking honestly about it and I and my first thing when people started asking

whether I'd ever write non-fiction was a bit like I don't know how I'd add to the narrative I don't know how I'd add to what is already there because you've got so many books that give you advice that's conflicting um you know that you feel terrible if you don't follow like I bought Gina Ford oh god yeah well I was given it actually what a great present stress in manuscript form thanks for that exactly so I read that and was just like this is just too stressful like yes because you not, it takes away any actual listening to your baby, anything like that. Yeah, it's maybe miserable. Yeah, it makes you feel like such a failure.

Yes. So I just thought, look, if I'm going to write a book about being a mum, what is it? And I just thought, writing a book about my experiences from an honest point of view, without trying to edit anything out or making myself look like a good mum, just being completely honest, warts and all, I thought that was the kind of book that I would love to write.

So after that, I took that on tour, and it was incredible, the conversations that we had. And I just, I didn't want it to end there. I think so often with books, they can have their time, and then everyone moves on. And I felt like it was a bigger conversation than that and I and I wanted that conversation to keep going um for new mums and mums that just need that extra bit of support so I thought to myself I'd love to do a podcast and by that point I was really into

um Emma Gannon's podcast and um the guilty feminist like. So many great podcasts I was listening to. And I just thought that would be a great place to have those conversations, but not about me. Let's invite other people on. So the first series I sent out, actually the first series I did just a pilot with Emma Willis. And she was really reluctant to say yes.

Why do you think that was? Because she was concerned about people hearing i think she's all she's quite she's private about her family life anyway but also she left me a voicemail and she was and she just no no she just ignored me which is very um and then we were out for her birthday and i mentioned it and she was like the thing is I know I struggle sometimes but you know you know she was kind of I know I struggle and I you know I might have moments where it's all a bit too much and I cry but you know I also have a great husband a great house a great support network um you know so why I can't I can't moan about it and I was like like, no, no, no. But that's the reason why.

It's not about moaning. It's about saying it doesn't matter who you are, what you have. We all experience so many of the same things and our feelings of being failures in motherhood is so universal. It's something that everyone feels at times. And the more we speak about it,

the more we're able to break down that whole thing and support mums and completely change it and and a few years in actually uh about a year in um i heard the statistic that the leading cause of death in new mums is suicide and that is just another push of why we keep going another push why we keep doing the virtual event. Motherhood throws up so many different emotions and feelings. And the more that we talk about it, the better. I feel like, you know, before having Buzz, I thought I was the most maternal person ever.

And then he came into our lives. And that first three weeks, I just thought, I've not got a maternal bone in my body. I was trying to do Gina Ford. I was trying to listen to every bit of advice that I'd ever been given. And, you know, I honestly had that thought of, can I send him back?

I've made a mistake. You know, and actually it's awful now looking back, but knowing that other people feel the same thing, you're like, well, that's fine because it's an overwhelming time. I didn't, you know, he was safe. Nothing happened. I was, you know, I was fine.

But I think if there was, if that was a mum who then, that was continuous and that stuck around, I just think if conversations with other parents can help mums and be that support, whether they're feeling like that, whether they're feeling low, whether they just need a bit of support

and words from other people going through similar situations um i think it's really important absolutely i also think there's still a lot of judgment um about how people it's assumed that other people do live and like you say it's about showing that actually a lot of what people deal with day to day is very similar there's lots of universal truths about what can happen when you become a parent and so you said that it was the first three weeks that you felt this sort of sense of not not feeling like you're maternal what happened after the three weeks that made things start to get better do you think I think for us feeding was a massive thing

although I would say that about three months in that suddenly clicked into place um but he wasn't sleeping very well um feeding would take an hour and a half and then you know it's you feed three hours after the start of a feed so if it if it takes him an hour and a half to feed and wind and change him then you've got an hour and a half sleep before you're up and doing it all again. And I think it was that lack of sleep, that feeling of being overwhelmed by this huge task, feeling like I should know what my baby needed and not knowing, you know. Yeah, I think it was just everything.

I think sleep has a huge part to play in it. Yes. Not surprising, really really is it makes sense you do lally if you haven't had enough sleep completely absolutely it's like torture it's literally used as torture in fact but you get through it and i think actually now when they're sort of toddlers and stuff and then there's a sleepless night you just kind of go whoa how did i even do that when they were newborns because one night off kilter can change so much about how you function the next day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. No, and I think those conversations around motherhood, it is good that they're shifting because it's funny you mentioned the Gina Ford thing because I feel like books in a way have taken a little bit longer to catch up with the conversation that new parents have been having actually because when I had my first so yeah nearly nearly 17 years ago all the books were quite um they're quite sort of medical and quite uh very pragmatic and not a lot of um room for things that fell outside of the typical I felt so you know if things weren't

going the way to the letter of how it was things were planned I felt like I'd sort of fallen out of that margin and there wasn't really a lot picking me back up and going don't worry if that's happened to you or if your baby's doing this and I think having that scope for the personality of the parent the personality of the baby things not going as they meant to but good intentions all around you know just just scooping you up a little bit so you just feel like it's okay something's got my back here yeah um it's really isolating i felt that was sort of the main emotion i felt with my first um and i feel like things have changed as you've gone through oh massively experience yeah i i think if i'd seen a mum like me when i had my first like prancing around doing discos at home with the five kids,

I'd have thought, I will never, ever get to that point. Never. Because I couldn't function barely at all with the first one. And I felt very cut off. I felt like I didn't really see very many people. It was my mum on Hotline and none of my friends had kids at that point. It must be the same for you, do you think, with having three now? it was sort of my mum on hotline and none of my friends had kids at that point so yeah I mean it must be the same for you do you think with having three now a very different picture to having just

one isn't it yeah completely different but it's that weird thing where it's really chaotic it's very very loud but at the same time I've got I've got a few friends who have um given birth for the first time in the last year. And it does, you know, the voice notes and things that you get and the check, you know, I always check in and see how they are. But when you hear one of your friends who have become mums for the first time crying, it just takes you back. Yes.

Because, you know, I think the chaos and everything that happens now is at a different level to a newborn when everything is so raw and so messy and you want everything to be perfect and you think everything should be perfect and it's that it's that beginning journey I think of of realizing that you're never going to be the perfect mum ever but you're going to be the right mum for your kids and what your kids need um so to get rid of all the other noise that's going on around it um but yeah I think uh yeah there is something it's something yeah I think hearing other new mums talking about it it does just take you back and it makes you go oh yeah we've come we've come a long way kids as yeah say definitely and that sort of um fearlessness that you talked about with with doing um I'm a celebrity and the fact that you were talking about you know returning to acting and the writing and

all the things do you feel like you sort of that motherhood has kind of helped that that progression to just feeling like actually I'll do what things if I feel like I want to do them I think so um I mean I guess the last year has been a bit difficult because we've had to juggle everything but certainly before that I think the year that I had buddy was my busiest work year ever you know um and there's definitely that sense of wanting to um take opportunities as they come and make the most of it and um and and like we were saying whenever you're not with them making sure that you're being as productive as possible and that the work that you're doing is good and um and making it count so um yeah I think it has changed the way I look at things work-wise. Yeah, and also, I kind of, things like I'm a celeb, I want, that for me is a little bit of me.

You know, and I think, you know, when you become a mum, that's so all-encompassing and yourself gets chucked away a little bit. And I feel like now that, you know, we're slowly coming to that stage now where, you know, most of the stair gates are gone, nappies are on their way out, dummies have gone, cots have gone, and we're coming out the other side and I find myself going, am I what do I like

where you know where do I fit in a way um and for me I'm a celeb definitely was that um you know I think the last few years my body has just aches my joints and everything is completely shot and um and for me it was a chance to kind of just sit and just and just be me not having to dart around and be everything to everyone every second of the day yeah did it feel weird doing that in the middle of the pandemic thing as well like that's quite a strange juxtaposition isn't it yeah I know um yeah it was really really strange but and also though I did say to myself if I was ever going to do it doing it after in a year that we've been together for months and months and months solidly that was probably the best year it was not a year to feel guilty about leaving at all they've had maximum mum time in

2020 uh so yeah that definitely didn't make me and you weren't in australia you would have had to go for much longer actually so yeah as well yeah i mean i probably would have had a nice holiday off the back of it but is that what you do then do you take them all with you do they fly out once you're in so you go out on your own they fly out once you're in. So you go out on your own, they fly out once you're in, and they get to stay in a nice hotel. Yeah, that's not too bad. Yeah, you're right. I think my kids would probably say thumbs up to that.

Actually, they want me to do it. I mean, is it something that you surprised yourself in doing, or did you always quite like the programme? I've always loved the show. It's a good programme, isn't it? It's so good. I'd say that and Bake Off are my two favorite shows when they're on I watch them yeah I drop everything and watch them um so I've always absolutely loved it I love just the fact that it's

obviously they have a few years where there are dramas but on the whole it's drama free it's all about the task it's all about them just living in this strange environment um so I think I knew what I was letting myself in for to an extent I didn't know what Wales was going to be like um and honestly I would just say to anyone who's asked do it do it it was the best experience ever and that's what something that all 12 of us would say yeah I've heard nothing about from everybody that's that's done it yeah and that is yeah I mean it's one of those shows that everyone will come away from and just say,

it was an amazing experience. And I think it highlights how accessible we are in everyday life. And I think before going in, you kind of worry about, but I'm going to be filmed all the time, and that's really intrusive. But it makes you realise how life is actually quite intrusive. You know, we can't go anywhere without watches or phones bleeping at us or emails going off and then

an hour later someone asking why you've not emailed back or kids wanting something some you're always going at 50 miles like 100 miles an hour 50 miles an hour it is fast but it's not fast 100 miles an hour 16 miles an hour walking pace pace. You're always going at a walking pace, getting everything done. So yeah, I think it's a lesson actually in what you think is going to be really intrusive. It makes you realise that life actually demands so much of you.

And there's something so beautiful. And for us, you know, they decide to, you start giving each other jobs. So you're only allowed to do one thing so at first I was literally running around doing everything everyone was really everyone wanted to do a little bit of everything yeah um I felt like a scullery maid at times just kind of shuffling through uh the castle and stuff but um and then once you're given a job so me and Mo were put on cooking and that's all we could do. We could only cook. So you have to chill out a bit. You have to be present.

And I found the biggest lesson for me is that I can so often feel like I am part of the experience of, say, being at home, but realizing I'm actually on the periphery. Yeah. So I can be washing up and listening to the kids and Tom having a wonderful time and I feel like I'm enjoying it because I'm hearing their laughter and whatever else but I'm not in it I'm enjoying it from afar and actually it made me realize that I need to start being in it a lot more and did it how was it for Tom with you having such a significant experience that didn't directly involve him

did that feel at all peculiar or yeah I guess so I think the one thing that the families really missed out on this time is that they weren't all connected in the same way that they would have been in Australia because right when they're in Australia they're all in the same hotel they all get on the bus every morning and go down to see who's going to be you know leaving and stuff whereas this time you know we should have all asked for production put them in a whatsapp group or something just so that they all felt supported we should have done that um so yeah I think it was strange but I mean he took over um all of my social media stuff and so I feel like he was really involved and um our first chat I was I got in the car and I was I had first chat, I got in the car and I was,

I had my phone and I got in the car to go to the hotel. And our first chat consisted of about 10 minutes just laughing down the phone, that whole thing. Yeah, and I can't wait for restrictions and later on in the year when we can, all the campmates can get back together and our families can get together. Yeah.

Because we've all gone through something and it must be strange knowing that your partner's gone through an experience that a partner that you know and have experienced most of your life with has gone through something so significant and you're not involved in some way. But then we also have Zooms.

So we have Zooms all together and Tom will always pop in and chat with everyone. And as far as the campmates feel, we all feel like we know all the partners or all the families, all the kids and everything. So, yeah, so I think we've come out and they've all been, yeah, they're all part of our club now. I've just realised that's your jacket, isn't it,

hanging up in the background. Yeah. Wasn't technically meant to take that. Really? You're supposed to give it back? Yeah, you're meant to give

everything back other than your hat and your boots. Who else is going to wear that? Put your name on it. That's fine. I say that's fine. And also,

it's so vile, it's so dirty. It's terrible. I did think about washing it because it does smell of smoke from the campfire and there's something quite nice about keeping it as it is. That's sweet and quite strange too.

I did have a couple more things to ask you and then I will let you go on your merry way. But I did wonder, because you have a flip of me, that obviously you and Tom have been together for a really long time before you become parents, as Richard and I hadn't been together very long at all. And I did wonder, when you've known each other that whole time, is it quite strange to see each other become parents together in that way?

Yeah, because you don't, yeah, because you're going through an experience. Yeah, because you feel like you know each other completely. Yeah. And then parenthood comes along and you're tired on a different level. And, yeah, situations arise that you have never dealt with before and you have to deal with them as a couple. I mean, I feel like we're far more frazzled now that we're parents. And in terms of our relationship, we definitely have to make more of an effort,

especially at this stage where I feel like it's so intense. You know, once they are starting to become a little bit more independent, even just going back to school, all them being at school, I think that would change things massively. So, yeah, I feel like our relationship is definitely in two halves, pre-kids and with kids.

And what about with them with the band is that because obviously McFly must have had their massive success but pre-kids as well when they got started do you think that would that was easier to deal with that already being quite an established beast by the time the kids came along I think so I think so because we'd done so many tours and stuff and and even as a partner you know I can remember the first tour that they went on wanting to go to the whole thing and Tom sort of saying well what one night would you like to come to and you're like what you can't I can't come um and then you know as years go on you go on a tour and you realize oh it's actually a little

bit boring it's not my gig and I'm just following someone around so your whole perception on how things work change and actually Buzz was born four weeks before the first McBusted tour um so what was lovely is that we could go on tour with Tom as much as possible and we did it so that we stayed in one spot in Manchester uh for a couple of weeks and so Tom would do gigs and then go back to Manchester and be with us and kind of crisscross around the country a little bit sorry this is when you had a you just had a newborn when that was all yeah yeah um which was which was nice in a way because being in a hotel with a newborn that you know especially trying to breastfeed and stuff it kind of it got rid of trying to be a super mom and be prepared for everyone to pop in at any moment and

you know it was just lots of time with your boobs out basically on the hotel bed trying to get it right that happens in a lot of hotel rooms but yeah so i guess that was that was great and and it's so lovely now so obviously so the band had mcbusted for a couple of years and then they've had mcfly so now the older two have both been to a mcfly gig and it's so gorgeous because obviously they did have a hiatus where nothing was going on but it's so gorgeous seeing our kids look at Tom yeah on stage and seeing the other side of him because they all you know they play their guitars and their drums and stuff and they all um you know have a little jam all together and it's absolutely adorable um but yeah it is pretty

incredible watching their faces yeah yeah well I think and for Tom as well I know that with Richard he said that when you when he was growing up, he always had this idea that one day if he had a kid, they'd be, you know, having them, if he managed to make it as a musician, having them see that happen. Yeah. To have them side a stage.

Yeah. It's really special. So I think that's probably really lovely for Tom too, just looking at and seeing their faces and the curiosity. They already think that he's absolutely amazing like tom is such he's he's he has surpassed my expectations of what he would be like and actually i would say the first year of having buzz um because because of mcbusted he was away a lot and actually well the first two years then because when buddy came along he was home much more so i think that's how things

have evolved in us doing a lot of it 50 50 and there's some stuff that tom is just so much better at than me and the flip side is i'm better at other things like tom was tom when um when buddy was first born so when he was a newborn tom would happily take the two of them out together and not not bat an eyelid if one of them was crying or whatever whereas for me it took me six months to work up the courage to take both of them out at the same time yeah and I wonder if part of that is also because I was breastfeeding and I felt like if one of them went on like if the toddler was running off and I was like what what do you do I don't know yeah um but it took me a long time to kind of work up that courage whereas he's he's always been

a little bit more relaxed about stuff, I guess. You know what, Rich, it's the same. I wonder as well if when you've had a baby, it's almost like you just feel a bit more vulnerable, like your skin's a bit thinner, you know? So if something does go a bit wrong, I just felt like I'd probably just burst into tears. Yeah, and I was always getting mum sweats.

Sorry? I was always getting mum sweats. Well, it's also really hard, just the pressure of checking them all the time and then when there's two, you just think, I don't know if that one runs off there and I've got to feed that one.

It just feels like insurmountable pressure to get it right. Yeah. And some of that doesn't really, I don't think that changes if you end up having more. I think that just, it just gets harder, actually,

some of that stuff. I remember when I had my second one, I thought that's just it just it just gets harder actually some of that stuff I remember when I had um I started my second one I thought oh it's gonna be fine I've already got one it's just more of the same and it's it's not actually it's sort of double double so what about five though that's just silly really isn't it on reflection especially when that lockdown started I just thought because you know i felt quite capable in terms of having another baby and i loved just to have you know having another small one and a big i felt quite clever at first but then when everything was you know rug was pulled completely i just thought i've been such a mug like how do i do this how do i you know reassure them and keep

the house tip top and keep them all happy and healthy and not have us, you know, shouting at each other all the time. Yeah. You kind of muddle through though, sort of find your rhythm. But yeah, that first lockdown is, when I look back at pictures or anything, you know, pops up in like a memory thing. I'm just like, that was a weird, weird time. But you had a lot of kids in homeschool. Yes. Well, for a little while, it felt like we're just running a very small private

school that wasn't very successful you know not results driven i wouldn't have said the teachers open to bribery snack driven in fact yeah teachers that didn't really want to be teachers yeah yeah it's probably what wasn't very successful but yeah we've made it through and they're all back at school so yay in fact I don't know if you can see on on your computer but I'm caked in makeup I saw on Instagram yeah I did a photo and there's like honestly there's nothing more ridiculous than having something nice like some you know having your hair and makeup done then like nowhere to go except for a virtual parents evening so I spoke to like 10 teachers just

before we were speaking and with everyone i had to start off by sort of apologizing for having this yellow and blue eyeshadow on yeah it's just a little bit garish for this evening but like i want to go out this is not what i envisaged um but talking of the the visual side of things your wallpaper is gorgeous i do really love your wallpaper. Thank you, I love a bit of floral. It's really beautiful. Also, so this is my office, so I've got everything. I've got a pink door.

You have an office? I'm so jealous. Yeah. That's very cool. Yeah. I mean, it always gets invaded with toys and stuff. Did it help during the last year,

though, working from home, that you had a space that was yours? No, because we couldn't really go into our spaces because we had three little humans to referee I don't know whether I feel like I spend a lot of my time refereeing and um you know I think those little wins our little wins is one child going to the other you can have this toy you know just you know that feels like such a win yeah yeah do you ever have any silly comments for having all boys like i've had tons of them i don't know oh yeah all the time

did you did people assume you were going again for a girl yes and i said i've said since the second baby the best thing about having a girl would be that people would stop asking me if that's what i'm trying to have um but actually when i had my fourth during pregnancy i started keeping notes of the stupid comments because they were so frequent. Like people I didn't know coming up to me and being like, oh, you should have had a hot bath after sex because that would have killed off the X or Y chromosome

or whatever it is. You know, I'm like, I don't even know who you are, random man. Yeah, I had lots of strange comments. Even my own doctor, my GP, when I went to see her and I said, oh, I think I'm about seven weeks pregnant. And she said, okay, let's fill out the form for the hospital. She said, oh, that's funny. It's asking me for the sex of the baby.

And I said, oh, you should probably just write boy. It probably will be. And she went, oh, well, you'll have to get a bitch dog. I said, I'm sorry. She went, oh, well, you'll have to get a bitch dog if you have another boy. I was like, what a weird comment. What a weird comment, Weird comment, Doctor. Anyway, yeah.

It is a weird thing, and I think, yeah, I think there is always that assumption, oh, you're going for a girl, you must be so disappointed that you've got another boy. But every child, they're so different. So different. I felt overwhelmingly lucky and grateful to have three kids who are here

and they are, you know, brilliant. And yeah, I feel overwhelmingly lucky to be in a situation that I am. And, you know, we always say that we're done. We're done at three. But if we were ever to go again, it would be for another child, not a girl. Yeah, that's what I would say as well.

And also, it's that thing, isn't it? Once you have a certain amount of one sex, it's highly unlikely that you're going to have the other. I don't know if that's true, though, because how do they know what's going on? I think it's like statistics, math statistics, I think. Yeah, but if I flipped a coin and i flipped a head um like five times in a row you wouldn't say i think you're unable to flip tails which is very true it's just probability isn't it like just

it's just 50 50 each time yeah i would imagine um and I am a scientist, so... LAUGHTER I'm actually an expert, so... Oh, OK. Yeah, you've asked me and I've told you, so that's fine. Well, I think I should let you go with your nice wallpaper and your quiet office. How has it been being interviewed for another parenting podcast? It's been lovely. Really, really lovely. It's been strange being the one asked the questions

you snuck in a few questions yourself but I kept you on a fairly tight leash oh see she's very lovely you probably knew that already but it was nice to speak to her and her wallpaper really was that nice. It was kind of all roses, and I think I'm a little bit obsessed with looking at people's interiors. I mean, look, we've all been doing it, haven't we, when we Zoom, watch people on Zoom on the telly and that kind of thing. I think, ooh, look at the background.

But I think at the moment, because I'm doing bits in the house, I'm a bit fascinated by people's decor, and I'm stealing what I can. Yeah, I think Giovanna, Giovanna to run with Savannah, speaks really well about the importance of being open about everybody's route into motherhood and whatever that means to them. But also, you know, that thing I come back to a lot, a lot, a lot about the real importance of having something that's your own. And obviously, you do not need to be a parent for that to resonate um it's very easy to get a bit lost in the wash and it's also incredibly easy as an adult to find you stop doing things that challenge you or shake things up a little bit and there's one thing I'm very grateful to my job for that it has you, thrown things my way that are completely unexpected.

And obviously for Giovanna, it was going and doing I'm a Celebrity, which everybody seems to come out of raving about, don't they? It's kind of tempting. My kids would like me to do it, but I'm not sure. I think, you know, I think there's bits that I quite enjoy. I think I could probably do all right with... I'm not too bad with rats and snakes. Anyway, I'm going off on a bit of a tangent now.

But yeah, it's funny because I started off singing and then through my singing, I've ended up doing things like eating crisps in zero gravity and delivering beer on a cherry picker and dancing a Paso Doble. So, you know, I'm fortunate to do things that scare me. And I can see that to Giovanna, it meant a lot that she could just be herself and be her own person and not always be someone's wife, someone's mother. You know, they're important things, but you need something

that's your own too. Anyway, the margarita is made. The DJ decks are ready. It's Saturday night. I'm talking to you with ridiculously high platform heels on i can only wear block heels now i don't think i will go back to stilettos that's my uh lockdown take what is the point of the spindly ones they just hurt anyway thanks for joining me um this series has got another three left and then i'll be recording the fourth series so please do start leaving me some tips of who you'd like me to speak to I always find that really helpful and I have approached a lot of the women that you do suggest and I won't trail who's coming next week because I've put my

foot on it foot in it more than once with saying the person and then changing it but I will tell you it won't disappoint you because I've got some really wicked ones coming coming your way anyway I Anyway, I'm going to stop rambling now, even though it comes so naturally to me. Thanks for joining me again. See you soon. Lots of love. Have a good week and speak to you soon. Thank you.