Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 32: Helle Thorning-Schmidt

Episode Date: June 14, 2021

Helle Thorning-Schmidt was the Prime Minister of Denmark from 2011 to2015. She was the first female leader of the Danish Social Democratsand the first female PM. I think she should wear that as a slogan ona T-shirt! She lives in London with her husband, MP Stephen Kinnock,while their two daughters, now in their early 20s, live in Copenhagen.We talked about how Helle managed to juggle work and home-life, firstas a busy MEP with small children, and then as the mum of teenagerswhen she was Prime Minister. Over the course of our conversation weuncovered her obsessions with jigsaws and transport. We talked abouthow she has been a feminist since the age of 12. And she shared herpositive mantra, which saw her through her time as chief executive ofSave the Children, that things are generally getting better, and thatwe should always listen to young people. Her energy and positivity isinspiring and infectious. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hey, podcats. How's tricks?

Talking of cats, I'm staring at my cat, Kaniki, while I talk to you. He can't understand what I'm saying, but he does look pretty terrible these days. He's such a lovely cat. He's very sweet. And we've had him and his sister, Rizzo, since they were kittens. So Kaniki is 17 now. And he's just suddenly got really old and dodgery. And he just had to start some thyroid medication and some painkillers for his hips and oh little Knickknacks he's just lying there having a little snooze all but yeah I do feel a bit concerned about him anyway I'll keep you posted if you're interested in in the health of my cat um I had a really funny thing yesterday, actually, where the vet called and said that

another of our cats, Titus, was at the vet. And I was out. So I phoned Richard and I said, you need to go and pick up our cat. He's been found in the road. Apparently he wasn't moving. And I said, that's a bit strange, but he seemed okay, the vet said. We just had to go and pick him up. So I hung up. Richard said, you go and get him. And then when I got home, the vet called me and said, we've still got your cat, Titus. And I rang Richard and I said, you go and get him. And then when I got home, the vet called me and said, we've still got your cat, Titus. And I rang Richard and I said, why didn't you pick up Titus? And he said, oh, after I hung up from you, I saw Titus in the garden.

I was like, you sure it's Titus? How can he be in two places at once? And he says, pretty sure it's our cat. He's sat in the garden and eating cat food. And when I got there, it was Kaniki. Microchips had got muddled up, which made a lot more sense because Kaniki is the sort of cat that would probably now sit in the road and not move. Anyway, that was a very long story about my cats because I said podcast. That's what made me think of it. You may or may not want to

know about all that, but what you probably do want to know about is about my guest today. So the guest for this week's podcast is the amazing Hella Thorning-Schmidt. Now, Hella is a lovely woman. She has two daughters in their 20s, and she was the first female prime minister of Denmark. And she's a very infectiously optimistic, And she's a very infectiously optimistic, pragmatic, outward-looking woman. I really enjoyed her company. I really enjoyed our conversation. She is the sort of person that just makes you feel quite sort of positive when you come away from the conversation and that there's room for change.

She also worked as CEO for Save the Children for three years. And when I asked her about how it was to handle knowing all the awful things that can happen to children in the world, she said, yes, but you have to believe, and it is true, that every day the world gets a bit better for children. And I thought that was a very, what's the word? It really summed up her attitude to life, I think, and the ongoing optimism and positivity that surrounds the projects she embarks on. So what else do you need to know about Hela?

We spoke in her very sunny conservatory. She lives not far from me in West London. She is married to an MP, Stephen Kinnock. He's the MP for Aberhaven. And we had a lovely conversation. I just really liked her. She also, like me me is a bit obsessed with transport we spoke a lot about city mapper and how much we love the app and about our love

of the tube and buses um I've had everything kept going back to transport quite a lot anyhow you're gonna hear it now why do I need to tell you what's in it you're gonna hear it you're here you're waiting for it stop talking about your cats and what you talk about. Let's hear the conversation here. I'll see you in a minute. Well, thanks so much for having me over. So excited to have you. So easy for me.

Coffee on the table. I'm in my own house yeah what's worked for me as well and it meant that I get to see you have a kettle and a toast that I actually looked at as a birthday present of course they are cool we love them actually yeah no it's okay they're a work of art they're like something you use every day I like I like things that you use every day like that has us like an artistic thing to our design thing to it I think that's really part of my me being Danish that everything has to look good like this things have to look good well that's interesting because I think that here in

the UK I think we've got better at that but I think it's still a relatively recent thing that we've sort of understood that everyday items can also be something really beautiful yeah and that's what i'm i mean i'm not like i'm not really into house making or making i just like everyday things could also be beautiful and very practical yeah i suppose especially in the last year when we've been home so much you have to look at those things all the time yeah you get the kettle is beautiful every morning to invest in a beautiful beautiful taster yeah um so there's lots of things I wanted to talk to you about. I think I might start with the current day. What are you up to at the moment?

What's keeping you busy? Well, I'm up to loads of things. When I stopped in politics, I was a little bit overwhelmed and confused about what I should be doing. And I knew that I need to stop in politics. I didn't want to go back to being the leader of the opposition. I didn't want to just sit in parliament and see time go by so I knew I had to change and find something new to do is also a factor that my children were getting bigger

and I was approaching 50 so that I think that's a good time in a woman's life to to look at your life and ask what is it I want to do so I gradually I mean also by chance I got offered to be in Save the Children as the CEO of Save the Children three years that I really enjoyed learned so much and and got into that charity world that I hadn't been engaged in before but obviously looked at from the outside and admired. And then after that, I wanted to do something completely new. And that's taken me into, I guess, a portfolio of jobs where I'm a non-executive director on various boards in Denmark and the UK and the US. And I'm right now spending a lot of time on Facebook's oversight board where we're looking into the content on Facebook and Instagram and where they're asking us not only advice,

but actually we take decisions on what should stay on the platform and what gets removed from the platform and their general way of treating their users and applying their content with their own community standards. So that's what I'm doing now. So is that Facebook worldwide or is it in Denmark? It's Facebook worldwide. Wow.

And Instagram, yeah. And Instagram, yeah, because it's the same thing. So basically we look at how they apply their own community standards, how that goes hand-in-hand with human rights law, and how they are also treating their users. There's been so many instances where Facebook has not told their users why their content has been removed, or there has been people who don't understand

why content does not get removed from the platforms. It's a constant discussion, of course, because you have to strike this balance between freedom of expression and someone else's human rights. So you can't have absolute freedom of expression and someone else's human rights. So you can't have absolute freedom of expression. That has to be balanced out with other people's human rights, for example, their rights not to be bullied or harassed or be in immediate danger or other human rights.

So this is what Facebook has to do much better, and the Oversight Board is made to to create that balance uh better and more transparent than it has been until now well that's really interesting because i guess those those platforms have become bigger and bigger and more and more powerful you know year on year it's like exponential growth in terms of how dominant they are and but where people get their information where they exchange ideas um so i guess the board you're on it's an independent advisory we're independent we're set up by facebook but through an independent uh trust i mean i'm not paid by facebook they can't they can't sack me uh so i

think we are independent but of course it has to be said we are set up by facebook because they paid the original sum to the independent trust and And what they want is to get more transparency on how they moderate content. It's an extremely complex issue. It is. And of course, you can discuss how these big tech companies should be regulated. And I think there is a place for regulation. But content is very hard to moderate from any government because there are so many governments who want to actually decide what can go on these platforms.

That's a powerful tool. If you look to Turkey or Russia or Myanmar right now, there's nothing that policymakers and governments want to do more than to actually decide what can go on the platforms. But then you also will stop freedom of speech for so many people who suddenly have got an agency and a voice that didn't have that before. Yeah, I mean, I suppose, by and large, do you think it's a much more positive thing than a negative thing in terms of how it's structured?

I think it's so important to balance these things out. Social media has given voice to so many people who didn't have a voice before. Just think of Black Lives Matter's movement or the Me Too movement, where you could create communities online where we could never reach each other without social media. But on the other hand, you have also seen groups that promotes hatred and false news. So it is a balancing act. And we have to discuss

how should we actually moderate content online, but also know that if governments do it in certain countries, that will actually stifle voice and stop that agency that so many people have gained through social media. Look at Hong Kong,

look at Belarus, Ukraine, other countries where people have gotten a voice because they can go on social media look at Hong Kong look at Belarus Ukraine other countries where where people have gotten a voice because they can go on social media and create groups and discuss things and find each other yeah no that makes complete sense to me and it's like you say you're looking almost to create a balanced society there but it has to be something that can be taken across all these boundaries and in all these different countries where they have different ideas of how that should work and how people should be able to express themselves and I suppose that comes back round maybe to something that I was reading about how you were an activist from a really young age and the idea of like one voice making a difference is obviously something

that's a bit of a through thread oh yeah absolutely no that's one i i mean i became a feminist when i was 12 and i was active in what i would call school politics when i was really really young and it comes from my parents who were always saying if i came home and at the dinner table was complaining about something in school or whatever they would always say so what have you done to change it yourself? Which is brilliant. I love that. Yeah, which is quite cool because that means that even a 12-year-old has to go back into school and ask the teacher, could we change this?

Or could we change how you're teaching this class or something like that? And I did that all the time. I was probably extremely annoying. But I did that because it was about how can you engage to change your own life and your own community in your school or wherever you are. Yeah, but I guess also it's a really healthy way of actually viewing politics, because I think sometimes when we're brought up, we're sort of encouraged to see politics as almost in its own little box of being, you know, politicians and the cynicism that can go along with how decisions are made. and the cynicism that can go along with how decisions are made.

And, you know, I used to know a woman that was always, oh, I don't vote, they're all liars, you know, just a sort of real us and them kind of a way of thinking. Whereas if politics is just encouraged to be seen more as just being involved in the world around you and looking to voice if you think things aren't fair or aren't right, I think then we're all political, aren't we? We are. I mean, and I really want to promote that way of seeing politics and

that's why i think it is important to engage children in politics 100 and give them their voice that was that was been a leading thought for me always that children has a right to have a voice in their own lives for example if there's divorce going on in their lives children have a right to have a voice in their schools and wherever they are they actually have to have a voice and young people as well we're so so easy for us to always talk about young people as they don't want to engage and they don't care about anything they only care about themselves i don't see young people like that so we have to be really vigilant to to listen to children and young people and give them a voice in in all everything that concerns them yeah absolutely i think sometimes when you hear things said from young people going

through stuff they have this real clarity and urgency to what they're saying that can be much more affecting i know than any other rhetoric i mean i always remember in the shooting in america at sandy hook and one of the students spoke and she said i want us to be in the history books not because we were another shooting, but because the last shooting. And that to me, like even now, it gives me goosebumps because I just thought what a beautiful, clear statement coming from something that's, that's not about politics.

That's just about a way that kids should not be, you know, life shouldn't be subjective. And you say it's not politics, but it is politics. And I think that's so important that everything is actually politics. And that's why I'm always worried when I hear about young people not voting and also women not voting because there's so many decisions that get taken that they need to influence because it's about their everyday life about buses and transport and how we work and child care and everything is politics so I really hope

women will engage in politics and young people as well. Do you think that growing up in Denmark was a slightly different emphasis then or do you think you were just quite an unusual kid to be taught? I think there is a different emphasis because people are so engaged in their community in their in where they where they live and I used to say when I was leader of my party which I was for more than 10 years that I shared a leadership an elected leadership title with one third of the Danes because they do like in their building society there's someone who runs that in the schools in the chess club in the sports club there's always someone who's elected to run it.

And I think that's politics as well. If you engage in any way in running anything in your community, you are actually a community leader and a community organiser. And that's politics as well. So I always think that there's a huge engagement in your own life and that feeling that I can actually engage and change yeah how what I what it what's happening in my community yeah no I think there's so much about that I really agree with and I think it's funny because after the Brexit vote I remember having this overwhelming feeling I've got to make sure my kids are always engaged with what's going on

in the world around them and and also that idea of focusing more on what unites us and a common shared rather than this very divisive very binary us and them it's so dangerous it's it's being encouraged way too much I think to think you're either everybody thinks they're right about the decisions they've made like that so that thing of sort of pointing at people and being like well we don we don't see eye to eye. But actually, if you sat down and spend time with people, you've got much more in common. Absolutely. And I so strongly believe in that. There was a debate, I think, here about how you could not, how a Labour person could not be friends with a Tory. Sometimes they're even married.

I know. It can actually happen. And I was baffled by that whole conversation because of course you can be friends with people from another political background or another social background, whatever. And I think we need to encourage that conversation much, much more. The debate, the dialogue, finding out what we have in common. If we haven't learned anything from the last year since 2016 I don't know what it should be rather than we need to have a conversation with each other and try and understand each other absolutely and in your family so you're an only child

no I'm the last of three okay which played a big I mean made a difference for me as well it was a big family. And my mum and dad got divorced when I was 10 or something. So that was a big break in my family as well. Yeah, that's very significant, particularly at that age. Yeah, it is, yeah. You're old enough to be able to take it in. So I've heard you speak about your mum and how you've been close with her. And this was probably quite a,

it tends to be like the foundation of your relationship if you've been through something like that, I think. Yeah, also because there's no doubt I moved with her and this was probably quite a it kind of tends to be like the foundation of your relationship if you've been through something like that I think and yeah also because there's no doubt I moved with her um and and my brother my sister stayed with my father which is something that you did back then but not oh wow so you didn't all stay together no that was a bit she chose that because I think because he was 15 she thought she could go out more she stayed my father and uh and go to more parties so uh it was a weird split of the family so you didn't spend time in each other's yeah we did but it wasn't like it is today where you live somewhere so i was really my base was with my

mom we spent time with my dad and we went on holidays and stuff with him um but it was very based my life was very based around my mom and her values and a lot of what I am and what I've learned, I've learned from her and her hard, hard years because it was hard suddenly to be on your own and be on a much smaller income and move to a smaller flat and she didn't have her own room. She slept in the living room. And so it was a big change in our lives that they they decided to get divorced or that my dad decided to find another uh another woman lovely woman but but at that time we couldn't

really see it yeah no that's no especially when it's your mum all you think about is yeah and so she was working throughout all of that time? She was working. My mum has always been working. And that was the way I was brought up, with a very hardworking mum who tried to learn more in her job and moved up through the ranks in her profession. So, yeah, I can see her coming home. You know, we didn't have a car. So she was walking back from the supermarket with these heavy plastic bags of groceries.

And I can see her coming in. And before she even put anything down, she put the water on to boil the potatoes. Because things had to move on in the family. We had to get the food. And so she was a very hardworking woman. And I think I learned a lot from her from being hardworking, but also trying to be present in the family life. Yeah. So what was the thing at 12 that made you realise you were a feminist?

Is there like one specific incident? I guess actually it was the divorce in many ways that made me realise that things were not equal between the two of them. I mean, my dad stayed in the big house with a car. He kept all the friends because that was how things were back then, that friends had felt they had to choose side we suddenly found ourselves in a small smaller flat and not so much money and so I just saw that inequality from a child's perspective and these were also this is the mid and late 70s and and

there was a lot of movement in women's discussions back then. And there was, you know, new music coming in where you could, where women were forming bands and singing about these issues. So that really made a big impact on me. And my sister was six years older. They were talking about women's issues. And I remember lying under the table and listening to those conversations so it's a very strong thing in me I became a feminist before I became political much much before so that is actually the the ism that I've taken with me all through life basically well it's interesting isn't it when you have something in a time in your life like that time when you're just more you and

your mum and taking on you know so much from her and deciding that, as you say, becoming more into the political, it's been such a defining thing. And it can be quite strange when you bring up your own kids and then they haven't got that same experience, so you think they're going to have to do something really different because it's a different experience. I know. I mean, I think that our children's life, my children's life is very different from mine.

But I don't think it's better or easier or anything. It's just very, very different. But I also hope that I brought some of my mum's upbringing with me because I think she did some really good things for us. But also there are some differences in the way that I try to influence and bring up our daughters. So what was happening in your life when you had your first baby? I had my first baby, Johanna, who is 24 now, in Brussels, when I was working in Brussels. And I remember that time mostly because I was very alone.

I had friends, but none of them had children. And if I had had children, my first child in Denmark, I would have had my mom, my sister, my close friends who were also pregnant and having children back then. I would have had a support structure, but I didn't have a support structure when I was in Brussels. So I had to sort of invent everything myself um and I went a bit nuts for a while because I was very much alone I mean I remember if if Steve he went to work if he didn't come home exactly the time that he had said he would

come home I'd do I mean a massive crisis about that so I think I went a little bit mad being so much alone and that also formed the basis that I wanted to get home wanted to get to Denmark and yeah so we changed our plans a bit after that yeah well I think it's incredibly isolated even if you have got friends and family nearby it can still be quite isolating yeah first baby but particularly if you're in a different country and I can totally imagine that thing of looking at the time and thinking they should have been home 20 minutes ago I know but what is that I mean I did realize then this is not normal that to behave like this and so I we had a very nice time I remember that time in a very positive light because we were so proud that we were like a little family and we had that little baby and we loved her so much um but I also remember it was hard being on my own for that much of the day how long were you

there for when uh we were there for a couple of we were there for a long time and with her we were there for a year okay and so was this all the time you had been doing politics at the same time or did you take I worked in the European Parliament at the time as an assistant, and that's where I had my first child. But I was very planned. I really wanted to become a mum. It was one thing I knew I always wanted, and I had this idea that I wanted my first child before I was 30. So obviously I was 29 and 11 months when I had her.

So that was part of the plan. So we were extremely happy and felt very happy that everything went so smooth and uh and she was so lovely it's funny I'm smiling when you said that because I'm a bit like that so when I had my last one I was like I'd worked out exactly when I could have him so that I would still not be 40 so it's like I was like 39 and nine months or whatever you you are like you've got a three-month window. So you're like in a different category. I mean, to have five, that's just so impressive.

Is it though? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. I mean, I have two children and I always wanted number three because I also come from a background of three children. I just didn't have time. That third one. I'm not sure I have time to ever see that.

Well, you seem to manage. I tell you, sometimes we'll be like going somewhere and I'll look behind me like, oh my God, it's like they've all multiplied. I feel like I don't remember each individual new person coming. They're just sort of all here now. Like a massive group. But I remember when my kids were small

and I had my nephew who was a boy, all of them, when I sometimes had him with me or for some reason we were going out with him, I just pretended he was my son and I had my nephew who was a boy all of them when I sometimes had him with me or for some reason we were going out with him I just pretended he was my son and I had three and I was very I loved I loved to pet the big family is quite an impressive unit it's definitely quite a defining thing I think I think for all of my kids I can see that it'll play quite a big part in what happens next it's just yeah there's just a sort of atmosphere of that household that you i think there's a love hate thing really of just the chaos of it but also the glory in that yeah the chaos and the love and they always look after each other i think it's

amazing yeah and i think it's always there's just always something happening which i think is quite nice i find that quite addictive yeah and also you have to give up being perfect yeah you have to give up having a perfect house where everything is in order and that everything has its own place and that everyone does what they have but that's what they have to do and that there's no arguments you have to give up on that whole idea which i think is so important important for women who work and have children at the same time or just if you have loads of children it's so important important for women who work and have children at the same time just if you have loads of children it's so important to give up being perfect yes i think that's very true and i suppose if you're a mom i wonder how that must have felt then to have gone from a house where

there were three kids that she had to manage and then just being the two of you and we were the two of me and my brother and it was we i think she was so good at creating a family vibe with us and of course also my sister when she was there she was very good at creating a family vibe with us and, of course, also my sister when she was there. She was very good at creating moments where we were one family and creating that. It was very hard for her. I know that now. I couldn't see it then.

But she was very good at creating those moments. Yeah, well, it sounds like it's really special and there's a lot of love there, which I think gets you through a lot. Yeah, absolutely. And also she it's really special and there's a lot of love there, which I think gets you through a lot. Yeah, absolutely. And also she did something which I always liked, that she invited our friends to be with us. So our friends could come with us on holiday and it was a very wise move of her

because then she didn't have to entertain us so much because we had friends on holiday. So we were always the household, even though we didn't have the biggest flat, we were always the place where people would come. Yeah, that's a smart that's so you'd have loads of kids in the sofa all the time people could always come for dinner and they always felt very welcome so I think that was a super smart move and it was the same in my household even when I was prime minister I would come home and I'd just be like loads of kids in the house I mean teenagers everywhere having a nap and one sofa sitting at the

the table and I would come in and having done something really important that day I would think that that was important and some kids would be asking me hello hello do you know where the ham is or something like that so it was always like that and I I found so much I I mean, happiness in, and it takes you down to the earth immediately when you come in over that thread or you open the door and they ask you weird things. And it's so fun and so much fun and so grounding. On each step with Peloton, from their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in.

Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes, led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. Yeah, I think that's great. So this is during the time that you were Prime Minister of Denmark, which of course we haven't quite got to yet. But that's, do you think that really helped you then with having that, the intensity of that day job, being able to come home and there's just all that happening? Yes, yes people always ask me how was it not hard to have children I mean my children were quite small when I became the leader of the party I was leader of the party for 10 years so they were quite

small and didn't quite understand what was so what was going on and we laugh about that now because they were like a little bit there was so much happening it's only now that they're seeing what actually happened. So they were quite small. And it was hard. It was very hard to make the ends meet and just try to be a good parent and try to be a good leader of the opposition and piece it all together. My God, it was hard.

And I don't want to say that it wasn't. But it was also extremely healthy for me to come home and just be mum to come home and you know be asked about normal things and discuss normal things with them what happened their school today it was such a break for my brain to have to deal with those questions and I always made quite sure that I didn't bring politics into the dinner table and didn't talk about that all the time because politics overwhelming for children. And it can be very hard place to put your brain. So I try to keep that a little bit away from them, succeeding sometimes, sometimes not. But it was a place of peace for me just to be with them.

So just as a bit of a timeline, so your second baby, you've moved back to Denmark. Moved back to Denmark. And yes and no, because then I managed to get myself elected for the European Parliament. So then we actually moved back to Brussels. So we were in Denmark for a short while.

And while I was campaigning, I was actually heavily pregnant, which was so hard. And then just started in the European Parliament came there with my big pregnant belly and tried to make myself you know understand what was going on the European Parliament as a new politician it was really hard yeah but had my had her then my youngest daughter had her in Brussels as well, by the same midwife. So back in Brussels, and we stayed there for five years then, having a really great time, me as a member of the European Parliament and my husband working.

So after the five years there, you moved back to Denmark then, and that's when you became the leader? That's when I became the leader. So your children are only like five and seven or something? Yes, the youngest was like five, six. So very, very young. So when you look back on that time, do you feel like you were running on a sort of crazy adrenaline of just getting things done?

Yeah, I was kind of running on a crazy adrenaline. And it's funny because there are certain parts of that life with two children, five and eight, running for leadership in my party, running the household too, because Steve was working in other countries, coming home over the weekends. It was a bit crazy time.

And some of it I can't remember. And I think that's because you are running on an adrenaline, which is, it was a happy time. And I remember it as a happy time but there are parts of it I can't really remember because you're so focused on doing so many things I remember sleeping really well because I was just totally exhausted when I went to bed but I tried so hard to be a good parent so I had two things work and and the children, and sometimes seeing friends, but that was all I could focus on.

I didn't go to the cinema for 10 years. I didn't do any cultural things. I missed all that. I mean, I love to do cultural things, go to a concert, listen to live music. I did very, very few of those things. So you just squeeze out everything that is not completely necessary to what I had to do.

I'd imagine it's quite hard to set work hours for that kind of thing does it yeah I know you say you keep the politics out of home when you're home but you is it something where is it easier to say I need to finish at this time and be home for that time? I became extremely good at finishing uh quite early in I had to pick both things the leader of the opposition and? Yeah, both things. And I changed the schedule on how politics would work. Because sometimes I had,

my mum helped us a lot in those years, but sometimes I simply had to pick them up from school or from their daycare at four or five. Things close really early in Denmark. The workday finished at four or five. So I had to rush out of the office so many times I had to just insist that we started a little bit earlier in the day got done by four so I could rush out of the door and pick the kids up and I did that and I changed the schedule and because I was the leader I had the power to do that

because when you are running all the meetings and setting all the meetings yourself, you can actually decide the schedule. And that's why I think we should ask from leaders to set a schedule that is where women can manage within that schedule. Why set a meeting from six to seven? It's a really hard time for women. Really hard. So I've, for my own life, I had to start organizing the meeting schedule in the office in a way that I could cope with that. And that meant that the hours between five and eight were not meetings. Yeah, off limits. It was off limits.

I mean, luckily I worked with people who had children themselves, also men, and they had the same feelings. So it was perfectly fine to phone someone and say, it's fine if you can't speak right now. Can I phone later? So it's perfectly fine to use your children and your family life as a really perfectly fine excuse. I'm just putting the kids to bed. Can I phone you later? Or the dinner's just on the table. so I'm just putting the kids to bed can I phone you later or the dinner's just on the table and I think that should be how it is if you work in very busy lives where you don't have office hours

like that you need to have some time which is off limits and where it's a bit sacred yeah I think sometimes um in in very sort of high powered workplaces there's a sort of expectation that if you somehow want to try and balance it with having a bit of a home life it's like saying you're not as dedicated to the job as that you are if you just give yourself over to it like 24 7 I think it's really old-fashioned sort of it's super old-fashioned and I've I just found that it was relief in the whole organization when I started setting those boundaries, that there was something that we didn't talk so much about, but it was between five and eight were like the sacred hours where we would try not to disturb each other

unless it was very, very important. But then after that, you can start talking. Then after eight or nine, you could start having chats again or answering emails or doing stuff. But it is important that that children also feel that those hours are are theirs that they can that's where they can you can have the fighting that's where you can have the dinner that's when you'd read the stories and do the homework and all these things it is very important that they feel that the time is given to them as well i

take it even broader than that as well because i I think that if you, for some people, if you give yourself over to a job, you can actually hide behind that busyness as well and not deal with other things. So, you know, people that aren't parents still benefit from having time set aside that's just for living, see a friend, play with your pet, do whatever it is

that is part of your life. It's so important. And actually, you know, you don't get congratulated at the end of 20 years hard work if you haven't done those things you know so the one who's carrying the weight of it ends up being the individual really and I I suppose it's this is not but obviously men want to parent too but as you were the first female head of the opposition and uh the first female PM I wonder if it is significant that that that did come from a woman,

because I suppose we have got this unconscious bias towards people in those positions tending to be men. Absolutely. And that's why it was so important that we did that and that I was part of that change. And I can see it now. I think it actually became a change in how Parliament works, I think it actually became a change in how Parliament works, that it was clearer to all of us that we could end parliamentary business at five. We didn't have to go on into the evening and vote into the evening. You can change that you vote at 12 o'clock in the daytime rather than 12 o'clock in the evening. So there are ways of changing parliamentary schedules so they fit more into family life. And that will benefit women, of course,

but it will also benefit men. So I think it was part of that change, and I'm very proud of that, both in how the leader's office worked but how the prime minister's office worked, but also in a way how parliament works. Not only me, but loads of women who started asking, can we actually organise parliamentary also in a way how parliament works not only me but loads of women who started asking can we actually organize parliamentary business in a different way

yeah so just thinking about as you became leader of the opposition with still very young children is that something that you had your eye on from i suppose yeah you said you were campaigning when you were heavily pregnant but was there any part of you when you were having a baby that worried you might it might take the edge off that sort of ambition um no I never felt that I always felt I could combine having children with what whatever I wanted to do in my career and I think that came from my mum as well she was always I think also because of the divorce where her economic life was very influenced by that or the way what she could do in her private life with the money that she had,

she always said to me and my sister, you have to be independent. You have to make your own money. And it's such an old-fashioned thing to say, but it was also a very clever thing to say to us that we had to be economically independent. So I always knew that I had to work and I was very ambitious. had to work and I always

I was very ambitious so I never thought I couldn't combine being ambitious and having a career with also having children I saw that with my mum who was single raising us and I never doubted that I could do that myself no that's wonderful it's interesting because for some women um having having a baby sort of clarifies things but there are definitely other women like you where it's almost like right strap that baby to my back i'm still headed in that same direction yeah i really was but it's also because it's a different system i mean denmark is a different system there's a there's much better child care and everyone puts their children into childcare and it's affordable for everyone. So it's a completely different system where more women are in the labour market.

So that also, it's not so big a question whether you are working or not. Everyone tries to combine, or many, many women tries to combine a career with having children as well. Yeah, but that's such a big shift. If we had something like that here, I imagine the difference it would make to everybody career with having children as well yeah but that's such a big shift it's a you know if we had something like that here i imagine the difference it would make to everybody if it was

just something that wasn't such a big question or it wasn't two people set up to each other saying well i think you've got more earning potential than me so i'll stay at home with the kids exactly and i think there's three things here that makes a difference uh first of all the working hours if if the working hours finished at four or five it would be much more manageable yeah then affordable child care for everyone yeah and then of course the transport people spend a lot of time transporting themselves to and from work so those three things would make a huge difference in in women's lives and I hope that there will be a time where there will be more affordable childcare. So even when women don't make the same as their husbands, which they often do not,

they can still contribute to the household economy and afford the childcare. Yeah, and it would just be mammoth, really. So if you had your sort of, I suppose, political awakening during your teenage years, could you see the same thing happening with your girls while you were leader? I mean, they're very politically awake. I mean, they're so advanced. They are from the woke generation. They are so advanced.

And one of the things that we discussed much more in their generation than before is, of course, climate change and the political mood that is changing and, you know, the whole gender issues and the political mood that is changing and you know the whole gender issues and the me too movements and so there's there's so much more woke and they understand much more about these things than than i and my generation ever did and i appreciate having that in my life now because i get educated every day by my children and stay a little bit woke with them so that's that's how they're thinking about things they're extremely political but in their own way not in a party political way but in in all aspects of of life um this black lives matter movement and the me too

movement had has had a big impact in their political thinking yeah i can see the exact same thing in my eldest, who's going to be 17 tomorrow, that he's very engaged in exactly the same way. And it's brilliant because I don't know how you'd really encourage that, but I think it just seems to be happening. They do it by themselves and also by their generation and the conversations they're having.

Yeah. And also, I don't know if we did this in a conscious way. I don't think we did. I don't know if we did this in a conscious way. I don't think we did. But we tried not to make gender the most defining part of our children. And it's so easy to make gender the most defining part. But it became very clear to us from their early age that they were not like that.

I mean, our oldest daughter, she was basically a boy. She was 12 years old. And I say that, we will even talk about that, her and I, the way she dressed, what she was playing, the game she was playing, the people she was playing with. I mean, so I think this whole gender awareness is much stronger with a younger generation. And it's something that I have not had so clear language for but I think that without even discussing it so much we brought them up in a in not a gender neutral way but in a way where gender wasn't the most defining part of who they were oh that's such a brilliant way of putting it because that's exactly how I feel as well but I've never sort of thought of it in such clear terms but that's exactly and maybe it's because I ended up having lots of the same gender I know it became even more of a thing to

me of just why is that this expectation of what that means or or even what people think I go home to you know if I if I met someone I didn't know and they'd say you know your children and I'd say oh it's five and then they go five boys oh I literally had someone this week say to me I feel sorry for you and I'm like well five of anything you know it's five, and then they go, five boys. Oh, I literally had someone this week say to me, I feel sorry for you. And I'm like, well, five of anything, you know. Yeah. I don't know what the association is with any of that. I think the association is that gender is the most defining thing about a person.

Which is so boring. It's so boring. No wonder it needs a shake-up. Yeah, it needs a shake-up because I would imagine that your five boys, they're very different. And they will turn out very different. They'll be interested in very different things. And the worst thing that could happen,

and I think actually this is a bigger problem for boys than for girls, is that they get put into a box and get limited from a very early age in what they can wear, which games they can play, who they can play with, which emotions they can have. I think girls have a wider, they have easier access to get some of the boys' toys and look like boys

and do what they want. If you even got a name for it, you can be a tomboy, which is a really weird expression, but at least there's a word for it, which is a tomboy which is a really weird expression but at least there's a word for it which is not derogatory it's so true but if boys don't even have a word for that no only words that are derogatory yeah so i think it's harder for boys to have gender defying their whole being and i think we as parents should try not to yeah and we won't be perfect

but we should just try a little bit not to and it was very clear to us from the very beginning that our oldest daughter she just wants to go her own ways I mean she only wants to wear mud-colored clothes she had short hair she played with boys toys all the time and we just had to look at and say wow what a what an individual we have in front of us here and we were like amazed this is so great yeah but it's also a really good introduction to parenthood because it's like oh I had this idea of who I was going to have and what we might do and you know I'm going to make sure my kid I don't know watches all the classic cinema and we're not going to ever listen to kiddie music we're going to do this and then actually they turn up and go oh you're you

yeah exactly we're going to do what you want. Okay, that's fine. I mean, we really felt like that with our children, that they were just themselves. And that's why I always react towards this word upbringing. How do you bring up your children? I'm not sure I brought them up when I was there, but they were like people that we just had to engage with and try to teach as much as we could

and have as many conversations with as we could. And they taught us as much as we could and have as many conversations with us as we could. And they taught us as much as we taught them. Yeah, and I suppose your biggest fear would probably... It actually turned out to be something I got quite worried about as well, just having a kid that's quite sort of apathetic and not really thinks very much about anything. I think so long as they've got a personality and character, it's just wonderful.

Yeah. But I imagine for you as well, you'd be thinking, know because they you know might have had a good quality of life and you're off doing your thing but then you come home and you say they're all hanging around and where's the ham and things but you want them to also be engaged and be interested and I suppose that's not something you can really no you can't you can't teach that and i was always worried that because my husband and i was so engaged in everything and we discussed everything and everything was important also from a political perspective that that would scare them off somehow yeah and uh that they wouldn't engage in that and i do think that we to a certain degree have scared them off going into

political life because they've seen the downside of that um but i think they luckily we haven't scared them off off about of having opinions about things and thinking that they can be part of a change and discussing things and being part of their their own community so they're still engaged in who who their own community and how they can be part of that that change which is actually a gift for life actually because once you can think about the power of one um i remember speaking to somebody once who'd had mental health issues and she said that what really saved her was finding getting involved in an issue bigger than herself find your cause bigger than herself yeah and if

you can do that it does actually mean you've always got a reason to get out of bed really absolutely no it's so important particularly if you are you that, it does actually mean you've always got a reason to get out of bed, really. Absolutely. No, it's so important, particularly if you are, you come from a privileged background and you have all those tools. It is important to use all those tools, not to only think about yourself. And one thing I'm a little bit worried about with young people, not my own in particular particular is that they get engaged in all these woke issues but the real bread and butter issues like how do we make a fairer economy or how do we make sure that our transport is working for women how do we build how how do we do housing planning like the real issues that also impacts our lives will not be interesting to them but maybe i'm wrong i hope

i'm wrong i hope you're wrong i i think you are because that that so reminds me a bit like when someone says i don't know black lives matter and then they'll say well it's fine but what about all this happening over here it's like well everybody's capable of yeah being concerned about lots of things at once of course they are no you're absolutely right and pulling me up on that of course we are and and maybe it's like uh generation x looking at the next generation saying who are they as concerned as we were and i'm i'm worried about being like that yeah well no but i think it's passing the bat on a bit isn't it's like yeah can you please take it you've got to take care of lots of stuff okay can you please be responsible i'm gonna go and do some jigsaw puzzles, so you've got to really be... Don't forget transport. Yeah.

Because transport means a lot to women as well. It's a women's issue, which housing is as well. No, and also, I hope that the next generation will not be indifferent... will not be so black and white so they can't meet. That's something that we discussed earlier on this about it's so important that you engage with people you don't agree with and don't cancel them and really engage with people and understand that everyone comes with their background

and based on that background they form certain opinions and opinions can change over a lifetime. We're not set in stone yeah and we need to just engage with each other and try to understand where we're coming from yeah but some of that as well can be led by example can't i remember one time one of one of them had a little friend over for a play date and the kid came out with something like gay people burn in hell and rather than just being like you know you're not coming around again i was like well where do you hear that and what are we talking about here and what do you think that means, you know, you're not coming around again. I was like, well, where do you hear that? And what are we talking about here?

And what do you think that means? And, you know, we sort of just discussed it. Yeah, just talk about it without starting hating someone because they say something which is not quite right or inappropriate. I really want them to do that. And I hope they will do that. That's my own background. I come from the wrong side of the tracks in Copenhagen.

I come from, you know, the COVID epicenter in Denmark right now which says a lot about how people live there as well and it was always very important for me because I work there you know my this the jobs that you do when you're you're a kid and you meet so many different people and it's just important for me that all kids understand not that they're not in a bubble and they have to listen to people outside their own bubble. Well, talking outside a bubble, how was it when you were CEO of the Save the Children charity? Because you seem like such an optimistic and positive person, but that must have just left you open to so many stories from so many places.

Yeah, it was a bit of, even for an optimistic person like myself, it was very hard. And I often had to remind myself that the world actually gets better every day. Okay, that's a good point. I mean, there is climate change and that sets us back enormously. But if you look at children, for example,

everyday children are better educated. They are healthier. We get more equality for girls. So the world gets better every day for children. And that's a good thing to remember because it also reminds us that it is actually worthwhile trying to change the world for the better and get that pace up.

So I often had to remind myself that when I visited a refugee camp somewhere, and I've seen so bad conditions for people and seen mothers holding up in conditions that you thought would not be possible. And they're holding up, they're holding up for their children, they're fighting for their children. And I think women are so strong in very difficult circumstances. Do you think it was a job that you could have seen yourself doing when your children were younger would it have been a bit i could have but i it sometimes it was hard to let go of some of the children i i met and you know when you sit with

a small child which i did in in yemen and it was so obvious that I sat with this child. She was four months old, but she looked like she was just born yesterday. And she was so weak. And I knew when I sat with her that if she didn't get the help that day, she wouldn't survive the day. But it also makes it very real what you can do to help. And if you get those nutritional packages to these children in time, and if we help get that we as the global population we will actually be able to save children and if we get their

vaccinations to them we will be able to help them and for them it's it could be a matter of of living that day because they give they get that nutritional package that we can provide them with so it made a lot of sense to me what say the children was doing it made a lot of sense to me what we as a global community can do for those children but it taught me a lot about human suffering violence against children which will always be part of what I will be working to end. So it taught me a lot about the suffering of children globally. I think it's a good way to look at it, that the world gets better every day,

because I think otherwise the enormity of things can just sometimes drown you a bit. It can drown you completely. That's why it is important for us to remember that. The world gets better every day. Children get wealth get wealthier healthier and better educated every day and we can help that progress yeah and that's a good thing as well to say to your girls because you know for their generation there is a lot going on and it's really easy to feel like how how are they going to fathom it when things have some things do seem pretty pretty dire

but actually there's still a lot of reasons to be hopeful and optimistic absolutely and i hope i mean they're very impacted of course by climate change and i i would as well would be as well if i were their age and there's not soup they're not super impressed by my generation and how we sort of what we're given to them to deal with. And we have to respect that they're very worried and we have to act on it now. But I also hope that they can keep their optimism because there's nothing more... It will stop you in your stride if you're too pessimistic.

Well, as someone who sounds like they always get a bit between their teeth and have a real sort of forward motion, how hard has it been at times when you've moved on into other areas like when you left politics or when you left save the children are those periods of time that were really tricky or did it always feel like that forward momentum it felt like there was a forward momentum but also not without worry um when you stop being a prime minister it's a very very difficult time in your life it was in my life and i know it's for other prime ministers as well and i wouldn't say that you get depressed but it's a it's a very blue time because everything just goes i was traveling around nice car you have the security you have

all the help from your staff you have the prestige of being a prime minister and then from one day to the next it just stops and you have to find resources in yourself to put one foot in front of the other and and start living a new life and it was very physical for me because I I took the bus those days and I hadn't taken the bus for a very long time so I had to work out how do you buy a ticket how do you do all these things and go out and take the bus and people were looking and saying hello Hilly what are you doing here nice to see you here people were so nice to me and have always been so people were really fun and I started biking around Copenhagen and it was just a very emotional time where you go through a phase and I learned as a woman but also

as a as an ex-politician that it can be very healthy to go through that those phases and live them a little bit and be a little bit sad and allow yourself to be soft and sad in those moments and watch a little bit too much TV and just live that blue time and not deny it. Well, that's actually a really good lesson as well, isn't it? If you can actually run into that feeling and just, as you say, just live that. Live it and don't try to run away from it and see the good things. I mean, my friends, they would call me saying, now we have to go out for drinks and, you know. Go cinema yeah go to the cinema do those things go out listen to live music which I did as well so there were so many opportunities in it as well and since then I

really found also a new voice and found myself in a different way because when you're a prime minister and in politics particularly as a woman I found that I had to be much more controlled in who I was and what I looked like and I could let go a little bit more after that I became much more loose and people are saying talking a lot about that in Denmark where I posted stuff on Instagram that I wouldn't have done when I was prime minister so you can also find another side to yourself and I think particularly for a woman in my 50s, it's been fun getting in contact with that other side of myself. And I think that it's interesting when life have different chapters

and you find new sides of yourself in each chapter and that you learn new things about yourself, which I certainly have. So I've allowed myself to go through the different phases and there'll be ups and downs, but to learn a little bit about myself. Yeah, and is that when you left Denmark as well after that? Yeah, I left Denmark when I became CEO of Seder Children, which was amazing as well, to leave that and just go to London,

you know, reinvigorate old friendships and see new people and be part of a new community in London has been extremely helpful for me getting out of politics and into something completely new and reinvent myself. Because if you are prime minister from a small country, nobody knows you in London. I mean, it's just nobody. I mean, and that's quite helpful as well, that you come in a way with a clean slate people have to understand you they have to know you from

from scratch and that was very helpful have you not got a t-shirt then that says I was the first female I should I should find that I would definitely get one one of those really big badges it's a pretty pretty t-shirt worthy slogan i think how do you find london living do you like i love to live in london i love to to go back and forth to copenhagen to london it's a it's a very nice combination actually to to do both those things then we go to wales sometimes or did before covid which is a great place as well so I feel very privileged to have access to different communities in different parts of the world. Wales, Copenhagen, London.

It feels amazing, actually. I think I really know that. I end up being the last person who really loved living in London and even taking the tube in in the morning and stuff. You really love transport, by the way. We've had buses, trains, jeeps. I do love pocket trains pocket i hope your girls

listen to this because like transport is like a key issue here it's so it's so important it's so important i i am the public transport person i'm a bit of a nerd like that i love public transport you've discovered my nerdiness i love i love to look at city map and find out how i can city map is my favorite app like bar none and find out how I can get... CityMap is my favourite app, bar none. And find out how I can get from A to B in public transport. It's brilliant. And then walk a bit and take a bus somewhere. I mean, I'm becoming such a transport nerd.

That's how I discovered London, in public transport, basically. But I love public... To me, public transport has always been my independence from when I was a teenager. Hop on the tube, get on the bus, be somewhere else. That was what it was for me. When the train came to my hometown, there wasn't always a train.

And then it suddenly came and we could go into town. Yeah. And we could take the night bus home after we'd been like in town the whole night. All those things. Maybe I'm a public transport nerd. No, no, but you know as well, the good thing about public transport

is that you could get a sort of slight anonymity. And I always feel when I'm on there, part of me connects back to being about 16, 17. I still can get that little like fizz of excitement about it. Yeah, exactly how I feel when I sit on a train. I'm so happy. Yeah, me too. I love it. And now we live in London.

We don't have a car here. We have a car in Wales, but we don't have a car here. So I actually use public transport quite a lot. Well, I can see why it's close to your heart. It's a podcast about public transport. Oh, dear. Well, I'm going to leave you in a minute, but I just wanted to,

I mean, I think I know the answer to this, but do you think you'll always be involved in something somewhere? Yes, I feel I'll always be involved in democracy, which I've been writing about, female issues. What do you mean, writing as in writing a book? No, just that I would more call it a pamphlet. And female issues,

like the whole Me Too movement has sparked something new in me. And then children and violence against children. This is something that I will always, one way or the other, be engaged in. And children's voice. I'm so keen for children to have a voice and that we ask them, and young people, that they have a voice about their own lives. Yeah. So I think they'll always be involved in that.

And one of the things I'm very engaged in now, after COVID, how do we go back to work? Yeah. now that after COVID how do we go back to work yeah and I really want us to think about how women and men will prefer to go back to work and what's the difference there because I'm seeing a little bit that when they're doing surveys in big big big corporations they ask people do you want to go back to the office and men want to go back to the office women want to stay at home but we also know that in covid women have done much more of the household chores than men so i'm a little bit worried about a divided labor market where men go in they have a great time in the office and they go to the pub after work and women stay home and

take on more of the household chores, and we get a divided labour market. So that's one of the things that I'm super keen to get into the corporate boardrooms right now, and we'll be working a little bit to do in 21. Well, I think that's really key. I think we're already seeing that, aren't we, and knowing that as well, women who are working from home

tend to be working kitchen tables, communal spaces, whereas men tend to have had an office space or somewhere they go to as well. They have an office space. I saw this survey, I think it was McKinsey doing a survey, where they saw that the interruptions of women's paid work had gone up 50% also compared to men's paid work and we just have to be careful because women are very good at being disturbed when they're working i'm very good at being disturbed when i'm working because i'm so used to it from when my kids were small i could sit at the

kitchen table the kids could come in and ask something go out into the and play again and i could carry on working and women are very good at being disturbed but we also need to create a little bit of a space for ourself and women have to be a little bit aware of these issues particularly if we're going to start working more from home yeah I think you're right about being aware of it actually and knowing what works for you and what you can hope to achieve as well so they feel they're given a bit of agency about what what they're entitled to yeah and women have to start a conversation also in their homes about the paid work and all the unpaid work obviously on a global basis women do 75 of all the unpaid work and i saw this survey that has gone up in the us by one hour so it's likely to be the same in the UK and other countries

so we have to look a little bit in that direction as women but also men because they're risking getting squeezed out of the household completely if they're not careful yeah yeah I think you're right I think everybody wants that balance actually it's not about saying men don't want to do those things it's just about it's like when you said when you change things when you were in parliament and people everybody was a bit relieved like well actually we want that time we want to be able to yeah and i want to online wasn't only me but there was a direction of travel where i could support it from where i was in those years and i do think it's so important that women who work and have children that they they allow themselves to take their children's needs

and the family's needs into how we organise our work because that will actually change for everyone, change for the better for everyone. So we shouldn't leave our children at home or pretend we don't have children or a family life that we are engaged in. We should take those priorities into the labour market and that way we will change how we work we should benefit all of us that sounds like a really positive way to finish i mean i wouldn't

sign me up i would you've got a very infectious energy i definitely thank you no it's a good thing i mean it does go back to travel it's all this forward motion you're your own tube or something you know you can get quite a good tube map puzzle, but actually I wouldn't suggest it. It's got loads of white bits that are just annoying. Yeah, too many white bits. But it's interesting to connect the lines, of course.

You get to know all the lines really well. Yeah, exactly. I'll be on the lookout for that. Thanks so much. See, how lovely was that? What a lovely, positive, outward-looking woman Hela is. It was so inspiring and infectious that Claire, my producer, and I, we both left her house feeling really the sort of fizzy buzz of positivity and can-do spirit. I like a bit of that and I hope I gave you a little bit of that today

while you've been listening as well. So thank you to Hella, thank you to you as ever. Nicky has been snoozing this entire time so you don't have to worry about him, he's fine for now. And next week, I've got a couple of options, I'm actually going to make you wait and see, they're both good, so I just, yeah, what mood am I in, I'll go with the flow, I'll sense these things, I try to be a little bit, you know, instinctive about this stuff, and in the meantime, stay happy people, stay positive, I hope everything's going all right for you, please do continue to leave your comments and your suggestions for other people to speak to. I'm forever casting my net, as you know. And some of my favorite, favorite conversations have been suggestions through other people. And it's good for me,

good for me to think outside of my usual little lists. So yeah, keep challenging me, please. I like your suggestions. I like you being here. Thanks so much for joining me. I'm going to spend some time with my cat while it's quiet. Hasn't it been nice? Look, my introduction and my outro, I haven't had any small people interrupt me. And even my cat's being well-behaved. Today is a good day.

I'll see you in a week or so. Look after yourselves. Take care. Bye. Thank you. you