Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 33: Kath Gillespie Sells

Episode Date: June 21, 2021

This week’s episode is very close to my heart as it’s a friend. Meet Kath Gillespie-Sells MBE. She talks with kindness, honesty and humour about making bravedecisions and following her path as a mother who was also a lesbian, back when that was acheivement in itself. But she didn’t stop there - she was awarded an MBE for her work founding REGARD, campaigning for LGBTQ+ disabled rights. She has 3 sons, one of which, Dan, is in a band (The Feeling) with my husband Richard which is how I’m lucky enough to know her. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Hi there, how are you? How's it all going? I am greeting you from the serenity of my youngest's room and Rizzo the cat has just come to join me. But I suspect she won't really contribute very much.

She's, how old are you now Rizzo? 17 eh? That's pretty senior. She still looks young. I reckon when she's out and about other cats are really blown away when she tells them how old she is. She looks a lot younger. Today I am surrounded by clothes. I've been pulling out my wardrobe.

I'm going off to film a TV program this afternoon. It's a show called Would I Lie to You? Have you heard of it? It's basically a show where you say things and sometimes you're speaking the truth and sometimes you're lying and then the other team have to guess. And in my mind I'm going to be quite good at lying. I think it's making the truth look like a lie that I might struggle with let us see I'll get back to you with how that went it's also weird when you have to pick an outfit for for doing those kind of quiz show game show things because only the top half of your body is going to be shown I have to pick a dress with a nice top

or just a nice top I guess uh anyway how did you find last week's podcast with hella thorny schmidt wasn't she lovely thanks for the positive feedback from that one and i love the eclecticism of this series so far so we've gone from a spice girl to a former prime minister and now we go to an lgbtq disabled rights activist and also someone I'm lucky enough to call a friend with Kath Gillespie-Sells, MBE no less. So Kath is the mother of Dan, Dan Sells from The Feeling, my husband's band. Bear with me. So I've known Kath for getting on for 20 years now. 20 years now. And I've always loved her company. One of those very resilient, wise, kind women, lovely to spend time with. And as I've got to know her, I've got to know her story.

But even then, you know, you never really get the full 360 of someone's life until you sit down and actually interview them in the way that I get to do for the Spinning Plates podcast. So thank you for giving me that chance because wow, what a privilege. I can't wait to share this story with you. You know, she started her tale in a straight relationship working as a ward nurse and finished the other side of motherhood as a newly disabled woman, young kids who then found herself realising that actually she didn't want to be in a straight relationship at all and that's became her start of her life living as a lesbian and all that that entailed in the 80s. So she'll tell you all about that. One thing I should make clear which doesn't quite come across in our chat because we spoke for a really long time I I could have easily done another hour, but I wanted to not wear Kath out too much. Delish, who is the

other mother of her third son, Tashka, Delish and Kath are no longer together anymore. So I don't think that came across. But apart from that, I think we're good to go, actually. And I think you're going to love this story and adore Kath because she really is one of those people. I'm incredibly lucky to have her in my life. And thank you so, so much to her for her generosity with her time and patience with me in telling her extraordinary story. I shall see you on the other side. Well, thank you so much for today, Kath. It's lovely to speak to you. And you are only the second time that I've interviewed someone for the podcast who I actually know really well in real life. The only other person was was my mum and I actually found that really hard it's actually quite hard talking to someone that you know really well because it's not and you know you don't

normally have those kind of chats um no you don't but I did want to speak to you about so many things and I thought I thought might be as well to be a little Julie Andrews uh and start at the very beginning because it's a very good Andrews uh and start at the very beginning because it's a very good place to start and ask what was going on in your life when you were having your first baby oh that's a question good question good question uh what's going on my life I had very recently been told that I had a spinal cord disease condition and that it would probably get worse. And that was caused by the septicemia. Right.

But unbeknownst to me or anybody else, the septicemia was also in my pelvis. Oh, wow. So it was a case of, have you thought about kids? And, of course, we had. Keith and I always wanted kids. So I said, yeah, yeah. Have you thought about having them now?

No, no. Wasn't ready, you know. Thought I was going to get back to work. It's put lots of things home, you know. Difficult and, you know, quite exciting. But having kids and having them now, even if they're not planned by you, planned by some medic.

So this was as a result, so at the time you'd been working as a nurse, is that right? Yeah, I was working as a nurse and I was a water strut at a local district general hospital, which is Barnet and um I got uh I had I had two wards to look after basically and um I had to do so many teaching hours as a ward sister you had to so of my teaching hours I chose chose to do this nasty dressing because, you know, everybody has to do nasty dressing at some stage. So I got the students around and I did this de-sloughing a wound.

It's not nice. That's like changing the dressings on the wound. Well, it's a bit more unpleasant than that. If something is infected and it's left, it coats over. And you get like a, I'm not going to say top of the custard because you'll never touch custard again, but it gets like a skim over it. Those two things are forever linked in my mind now.

Sorry. Sorry. Anyway, it gets a skin formed on it. Oh, you have to take it off um oh you have to take it off your color one and and you have to and it has to you have to you have to cut it off and and and then you go in and start cleaning out all the gubbins and um as i say it's it's some people can go through their career and not have to do it at all but others it could be something that you come across, depends where you work.

So I wanted to get these guys to do it, and it looks good on their tick sheet. So I got that done, and just as I was finishing the dressing, and I just said, don't forget to leave the patient comfortable and tidy. I just ran my hand along the side of the bed to straighten the sheet, matron him, talking to the back of my head. And I got a splinter in my right ring finger, and that caused septicemia,

septicemia which then caused the infection in my um my abdomen and the longer nasty cyst in my spinal cord which is the one that's called the ongoing disability for 40 years now anyway so um so it was a case of having i can't't remember what your question was now, but having seen that there was an infection there, it was a case of, like, we can blow the floping tubes and we can help you now, but if you leave it any longer, they're going to get infected as well, and then they will close down and no eggs, there's no chance of getting eggs through. Wow, and so how quickly did it go from that day with the splinter to being told all this information with the sort of long-term effects oh it was

it was a few years it was um actually it was about three years three yeah i had um yeah three years only um because and some of that was having James as well. Because just a few years after that, I got my first spinal stroke and then I was in hospital having my back opened and my back, well, I couldn't actually do anything but sewn up, but at least we had a proper diagnosis then. Because it was just before MRIs and I couldn't actually do anything, but sewn up. But at least we had a proper diagnosis then. Because it was just before MRIs and you couldn't actually see into the spinal cord. So the only way you could see what was going on was to actually open it and look at it.

Wow. So I had that laminate for me done and I was nursed in the ball free. And Keith used to bring the babies up to me to see them and um so they were wow I'd had them in that and that was that was in 81 so I'd had I'd had the kids by then so just to get a chronology of it this is what in your sort of mid-20s is it or younger than that yeah so you're 27 so you get the splinter you haven't got any babies at that point uh just you and keith and you're you know thinking about your future you thought maybe at some point you have babies but the time being you had this career trajectory in the hospital um and so you once you'd already got the septicemia and things

were looking quite serious, that's when you actually got pregnant with James? Yes. And that was the suggestion of the people treating you, saying, we think you should probably get a bit of a hush-hung of this. We'll blow your tubes and see what happens. Wow. So actually the fact that you had those two babies was really already, the odds were sort of against you.

Yeah, yeah, very much so. And that's why they're so quick between them. What's the gap between Dan and James? 18 months. 18 months, right, yeah, that is a small. Yeah, yeah, quite tight. Yeah, but how did you manage with very tiny babies at a time when you were physically adjusting to a new sort of disability?

It was very, very difficult. Very difficult. It was difficult for a couple of reasons. Apart from I kind of thought, well, I need to rethink lots of things. You know, how am I going to do this? How am I going to continue to bring in an income Keith and I were doing the job share you know not a job share we were doing a role reversal so he he'd always agreed to be the one that stayed at home when we had kids and I would continue to

work so I had the career and he didn't care about career he you know he was a very very clever mechanical engineer, but he wasn't interested in any career structure. He just, every time he got promoted, he left the job. Oh, wow. He just wasn't. Yeah, just wasn't turning on. No, no, just got that sort of G.

Yeah. So, yeah, so I was, so it went quickly from having the kids, but also in getting that kind of, you know, you're working full time, you know, you've got this trajectory, as you say, and you've got all your planning ahead, you know what you're going to do when you're going to do it, as much as any of us can, and then suddenly you're toppled off of that

and you're thinking, you know, is this really going to happen? When is it going to happen? You know, when am I going to become disabled? What does this mean? Surely I should start thinking about doing something else okay I can't nurse but surely I can teach you know I've got a mouth on me I can teach um so you know it's thinking about the future what else can I do you know I was the kind of young woman that could not sit at home.

So I loved being a mum. I loved having the kids around me, but I loved going to work too. And all that kind of balancing act, which was difficult enough. But I don't know. I just felt I needed to keep trying for something. I felt I was giving up if I don't know. I just felt I needed to keep trying for something. I felt I was giving up if I didn't. I was giving up on this young woman that wanted to do something with her life. And so I retrained as a teacher.

So in fact, one of the very first course I did, I'd just had Dan, baby number two, and he was literally just born and I signed up for this course. I must have been mad. Anyway, I took that post and I could do anything. I had the opposite to depression. I was a superwoman. I was going to fly to the college with Dan on my back. But anyway, I went to college and they signed me up and said,

yeah, you know, you're welcome. You come and do this. To start with, it's a day and a half a week. And then if you do get this course, you go on to Middlesex Uni and you do something else there. So I did this introductory course. It was, I don't know what it was. It was a sitting skills course, I don't remember now.

And the wonderful woman that was running the course, I said to her, there's only one problem. I've got a small child and I'm breastfeeding. So I said, can I run home in between, you know, one half of the session and the other half and come back? So she said, don't bring the baby in. Sit him in the corner. And if he cries, feed him. I'm sure no one else will mind when you and he's gonna say no oh i mind miss

so uh yeah so we uh so yeah he was he was in the corner like did that and um that was all a bit nuts to be honest I don't think there's an awful lot planned it was just like rolling into oh here's something else about my disability you know here's another problem uh you know oh I'm getting through that oh here's another problem oh I'm getting through that do you know what I mean? It was just like up, down. It was a seesaw, riding a seesaw up until really, up until I sort of, Keith and I separated fully and I bought my own flat and Dulish moved in and it's some sort of semblance of a life. Yes. in and it's some sort of semblance of a life yes but that that took that you know that took an awful lot of uh not so much planning but dealing with yeah thinking thinking about

for me the welfare of the children as much as the welfare to ke and myself. Yeah, I suppose, I mean, becoming someone that was working on one trajectory to suddenly finding yourself within the space of, let's say, four or five years, now a disabled mother to two young children, it sounds like you had so much resilience and also sort of almost like a quite a good understanding of what mental strategy would allow you to cope with that and that you you felt almost quite instinctively I must keep working and that that made you feel quite empowered it

sounds like when you said you know you're like I was just going to get there with down on my back you know that's not that's that's more than just survival that's sort of an understanding of what what you needed to still feel so free and able in your in your head I suppose is had your life been quite calm up until that moment when you became ill and stopped being a nurse I mean were there previous times when you'd have to deal with ups and downs like that yeah I often wonder what life would have been like had that not happened yeah you know you do look back and think changed everything what if yeah because um Keith and I've been together um probably we got married in 71 and um I'd had I yeah I'd had the babies and I had my spinal stroke in 81. So within that time. But we'd had a good, it seemed longer because, I don't know,

maybe it's because I'm so old now, but it seemed between getting married at 20, I was 20, and having to become disabled at 27 it just seemed like we had a good chunk of living and we went we went to Canada and we spent it spent a good while over there just trying life over there didn't suit us we came back bought a house in Barnet. We were living in Barnet. We both had jobs. We were doing up an old house, this old house, and we both loved doing it, you know.

So we both enjoyed ripping out the bathroom and putting tiles up. And, you know, if a tile on the roof slipped. Keith had all the knowledge, but he was scared of heights, so he'd go, up you go. Sort of like, I'll hold the ladder, up you go. And we had a lot of fun doing that. And we used to, you know, to earn a bit of extra money,

apart from our jobs, we used to buy and sell old cars and i'd help him sort out the inside of the cars the interior and maybe do some painting of the car some spraying but so but between it meant going to auctions and buying things and then going back to auction and trying to sell something you know it was good fun yeah it was good fun there's always a lot of of uh grease monkeys about you know mechanics and the like but but you know they're all we're all good fun it sounds like keith and you were very much equals in your relationship as well in the way you handled things absolutely yeah we'd always always intended to do that i mean we never in all earnest, we never really intended to get married. It was just that we wanted to live together.

And I was a student nurse when we met. I met him at one of these terrible nurses' parties, which is all about take the bulls to the cows. It's all that kind of, in our area, that's what we do. Yeah, traditional. Line the fellas up, line the girls up, and then push them together. And the nurse part is a bit like that. How many blokes have we got in? Who else can we push in? Can we get

any through the window? Because we weren't meant to have men in the nursing home, but we got them in. And so he was one of those blokes that came in. And, you know, I saw him and half the nurses in my set were mad for him. Absolutely mad. He'd just come back from travelling around Europe and he was very tanned and he had bright blonde hair and this lovely, really sort of ginger beard. And he looked very handsome. He looked very handsome.

And it was a time he actually bothered to put on a shirt for one of his occasions. So he was looking quite good. And, you know, so I heard all this chattering going on around me um I wasn't one for for saying a lot about how I felt in about fellas in front of or anything really in front of all these women that were sort of undressing the fellas virtually and um anyway but you know I thought oh wow can't be bad because I'd fancied him but thought no maybe not maybe I'm wrong maybe he's not that great then I heard all this and I thought

yeah I'm up for it too he's a good man yeah and he chose me and I was blown away I was blown away. I was blown away. I felt like I was the, you know, the happiest woman. And just, well, I still feel a bit like a child then, really. But, you know, I just felt I'd got the cherry on the cake type of thing. But as we got to know each other, you know, we were good friends. And there was romance, certainly, definitely. And we wanted to live together before getting married because we both had dodgy feelings about marriage, really. We weren't sure about marriage, how we felt about it.

Because my mother, I was really Roman Catholic and my dad was very, very Catholic. He's one of the Knights of St. Columbus, which kind of, you know, within the Catholic Church, he was almost a lay preacher. And my mum, who converted to Catholicism so that she could marry my dad, she was a Baptist, almost became more Catholic after my dad died.

She died when I was a teenager than before. So she was insisting that the only man that I would live with would be the man I married. So I told Keith this. So I said, not on. And we'd found somewhere as well. So anyway, he ran me back two nights later and said, I've got a licence.

I said, a licence for what? You know, car, dog? He said, we can get married on Thursday. Oh, wow. It was on Tuesday. So I said, well, okay, if that's what you want to do, I'm up for it. He said, yeah, I'm up for it.

He said, I'll have my fingers crossed. I said, so will I. So that was the deal. We'd go and do it so that we could live together. And so, you know, suddenly, he told his mum, of course, you've seen Monica about, but if you really knew Monica, you'd know, she would have a wedding planned and organised

and executed within 48 hours if necessary. 48 days if she had her own way, but, you know, 48 hours. So, you know, we really thought we'd just turn up in our jeans and sign on the dotted line and go, but no, you know, it was all the clothes and, you know, all the stuff. You couldn't get away with just having a casual, yeah. All the wedding cake, nothing. There's an old photo knocking around somewhere of Keith and I on our wedding day.

It's very funny. Big hair up here. I kind of think, who's that? Well, also so young. I mean, 20 is so young. I know. I know. It would never have occurred to me to.

It's just a different, you know, what would have have occurred to me to... It's just a different... You know, what would have happened if my mother hadn't pushed that? You know, I'd been going out with boys since I was 14 and I hadn't found a boy that... Well, I had one boyfriend when I was quite young. I was really, really upset when that broke. But I hadn't really had a boyfriend that I was that keen on. And I was really, really mad about Keith and so you know why not we didn't mean it but then you know you

live like that but people kind of impose it on you yes you know you're then you're then suddenly invited with all these married couples to things yes you know You know, so we're having a supper party. It's almost like a thing that happens to you, isn't it? Like there's a form that goes along with it and a shape and an expectation of what happens next as well. Absolutely, absolutely. So when did that path veer off the traditional for you? I mean, because obviously what happened after you and Keith separated

was a very different story. Because obviously what happened after you and Keith separated was a very different story. So what was happening as the kids were still little but getting a bit older and you and Keith were separating? What was the starting point of all that? I think, Sophie, I know it's because I'm an old lady now and my dates aren't that great, but just to say, when, you know, I said I was taking Dan to,

I was taking Dan on this course with me. Teaching course. To feed him, whatever. Towards the end of that course, it became quite clear that the teacher had the hots for me. And I didn't know what to do with that. So I kind of did absolutely nothing about it.

But it got me... This was a female teacher? it got me this was a female teacher is that is that a female teacher or a male teacher yeah yeah yeah that's the one that looked at the class and said you don't mind her breastfeeding here do you lads wow so she went from that to making it quite clear that she actually had feelings for you yeah it's about a year later but you know the end of the course not a year um but anyway at the end of the academic course when you all start going your own way she invited me around for tea and one afternoon and why not um so I went around minus the kids minus child Keith had them and um it was just chatting.

And, yeah, she made an approach. And I was quite floored. I didn't know what was going on. But I had started reading Spare Rib. And, you know, every so often there'd be an article about or for or from a lesbian in it. And the ads at the back were often, you know, for women, for women wanting to meet women. And so, you know, the concept was not alien entirely.

But I hadn't thought about it that much. I had when I was 14, but being a good Catholic girl, I packed it back away again. Never thought about it again. And, you know, this was something that I found it really hard to put away. Yes. something that I found it really hard to put away. Yes. You know, and then we had neighbours

that moved in two doors up and they turned out to be a lesbian couple. So I seemed to, they seemed to be everywhere coming at me. And Pam and Pat, Pam was an opera singer. She was one of the main singers at the ENO and she used to come out in the early morning to do her scales in the back garden. I'd hear her singing merrily

and I'd just open the window and look out, sort of wave and she'd wave back and it just that first started almost playing on my mind that these women were living two doors up yeah what was that life like you know so I didn't hide any of this because Keith and I shared everything so I told him and you you know, he said, well, you're not going to know until you try it. Really? That was his response? Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. What do you think that response was about? I mean, is that just because he could sort of see where you... He'd see more of you than you even really could understand about yourself? Or was it just that whole thing of loving someone and setting them free? I mean, what... I think it's more the latter because he was a...

He was basically a hippie. Yeah. At heart, you know, everything was peace, love and understanding with Keith. I mean, you wouldn't know it was meeting him now, you know, as you have, but as a young man, you know, it was all about, he still signs everything, peace and love, but there was peace and love everywhere, you know, going to music festivals.

Yeah. Yeah, he was a real hippie at heart and he thought, you know, each of us to our own destiny and, you know, if it's our own destiny and you know if it's right for you you'll find it if it's not right you won't i do find that incredibly moving though the idea of you yeah relationship having so much support and respect for each other actually I think you know amongst the backdrop of all that traditional landscape your relationship actually was way ahead of its time in terms of actually being able to properly give each other the space to be exactly who you needed to be in the in each stage of your

life actually um for you to talk to him about your even to be able to talk to him about your feelings is a very pretty alien concept to a lot of relationships when it comes to thoughts and feelings of it you know something that doesn't that doesn't include them excludes them no absolutely yeah and he didn't feel threatened by it he just thought well you know no no i mean i I... Honestly, I didn't know what to do. I mean, I brought a lesbian home at one stage to show him. This is what one looks like. This is what one looks like. What do you think about that?

How do we feel about her? Terrible. Yeah. Shocking. Shocking. We were so naive. We were so naive. I think it's really sweet, though.

It's really charming. It's like, it's proper, like, awakening, isn't it? Wow. It's like, door's opening. What's behind this door? This is exciting. Yeah. Yeah.

And I guess it was both exciting and and scary at the same time it was all those things but you know but the respect and the the respect for each other's space and journey was very important yes um and i think i think he was way ahead of me in that one. Yeah, maybe. And he, anyway, we talked more about it. And he said, I think you should find somewhere. And, you know, as I say, just, anyway, I think we, between us we found the number for Lesbian Line and we gave that a call and had a chat to a few lesbians.

And then about coming out, although I really was very hesitant about it. And I didn't know if it was me anyway. Yeah. But I didn't know what this inability to stop it in my head was about and anyway so I did go to a club and there weren't many around so I went to one

and we were so we developed into some sort of almost suburban couple in terms of when we went out, when we didn't go out. I arrived at this club at nine o'clock. I mean, you know, we had kids. You put the kids to bed at seven and you go to bed shortly after nine so you can get enough sleep. So anyway, yeah, we went to this club and got there really early

and it was empty, of course. And it was just me and this bar woman. And I was thinking, oh, I can't bear it. This is like something out of a sitcom almost, you know. It's crazy. And I had one of these old telephones in the corner, you know, put your money in and dial it and sort of box things, I don't know if you remember.

And anyway, so about 11 o'clock, or about 11, it must have been before 11, but anyway, shortly before 11, I rang him and I said, look, Keith, nobody's coming. Nobody's come. It's 11 o'clock. Nobody's coming. I want to come home's 11 o'clock. Nobody's coming. I want to come home. I think I'm going to come home.

So he said, well, do so, you know, when you want. But why don't you just get another drink and give yourself 10 minutes or so and then get a taxi and come home. You know, if it doesn't change of course by the time I'd even got halfway through that drink it was 11 o'clock and they were coming through the door

right left and centre and my mouth had dropped open and I was looking at them oh that's what a lesbian looks like oh and that and that and that so it was it was yeah mind blowing and I and that. So it was, yeah, mind-blowing. And I met somebody, but I didn't sleep with them

that night. Very Catholic of me. I wanted to date somebody, not knowing that you don't do that. But anyway. What do you mean you don't do that? to date somebody not knowing that you don't do that but anyway what do you mean you don't do that

well I you know we didn't then to be honest if you found someone that you liked and they were willing Barkis is willing

you'd you know you'd jump into bed but you didn't know when there'd be another chance when you might come across another 74 bus almost

but you know you didn't have to meet another person or, you know, you're going to get another chance, whatever. Anyway, so then subsequently I did sleep with a woman and that was it. I thought what Keith and I were having was lovely. Yeah. Because I loved him.

Yes. I do love him. Yes. I still love him. I'll always love him. But, you know, this was something else. This was in a different league altogether. And I obviously was very ignorant about my body and to some degree I was a nurse I

knew where everything was and what it was meant to do but you know I'm not sure I engaged with it very much I was you know much more about pleasing the other pleasing Keith yes you know whatever um and so yeah my mind my mind blew and and um i just kind of knew i'd found i'd found the beginning of my way home i didn't know what it looked like i didn't know where i was going i don't know where i'd end up or if i'd end up um because of quite some dark sides to lesbian life in those days. And it was the Gateways Club was a very famous lesbian club. But there were a lot of women that drank too much and it was very often a suicide and, you know, some very dark corners to it because women weren't allowed to be lesbians in those days.

Yes. You know, and I subsequently realised it was a reason for me to lose my kids, although I didn't know that at the time I didn't know in what way could you have lost your children custody custody right yeah yeah yeah well it's it's interesting when you're talking so beautifully about you know finding your way home and I think actually so many people would understand that feeling of of not knowing your body in that way and of thinking all about pleasing the other person and not really feeling that you've quite seen the full 360 world of what all of the other stuff can

look like happiness satisfaction contentment, in every sense. I think there are a lot of people that maybe never quite find that in themselves, actually. Sure, that's true. And a lot of fear and a lot of trepidation of what shape and form that happiness comes in as well. So I think that's an amazingly powerful thing and i think as well it's really sort of poetic in a way that you can have this relationship with keith

that because of its nature and how sort of um genuinely loving it is it actually allowed you to do the thing that would mean eventually you'd move into another chapter. That's an incredible thing, really, isn't it? An amazing gift. It is an incredible thing. It was also a very painful thing for a while. I think when the realisation, it's all very well you have grand philosophies and you want to live by them but when it starts paining you in the chest yeah you know it it's hard to maintain those philosophical high ideals yes you know you you you're kind of brought down to what you're going you know that that's you're taking my boys no way you know there's there's which is all it's almost like a it's almost like you know a patella hammer hitting someone's knee it's it

really isn't a an emotional jerk really i i don't i don't think any of this is thought through. I never wanted to hurt him by going down this road. He never wanted to hurt me. You and his family were very much, you know, you keep the boys, Keith. We don't want those influences. And more even the people that knew Keith, his friends, people from the nursery, then people from the school, really didn't understand, you know, what we were even trying to do. And thought that would have been bad enough to start with.

You know, he shouldn't have done all this. And he shouldn't have allowed me to live my life so to speak you know all of that kind of stuff and it's easy if you're in pain for whatever reason to just suck some of that in and instead of sitting down and negotiating, you can start with, you go, I'll stay. I'll have the house, I'll have the kids. Not that it was ever said like that, but that was the kind of ultimate outcome of all the little bits that were said in the back of his head by people talking in his ear all the time. People's attitude to me, which was like I was a monster.

And I suppose after a while, if everyone treats someone you care about like a monster, it's going to be hard for you not to. And when your family said that Perns is a monster, it's going to be hard for you not to look at that in a bit, look at that way in a bit and go, yeah, you know. So for a couple of years, it was very difficult because I knew if I pushed it, I wouldn't get custody.

I was surrounded by women who'd lost custody of their boy children in particular. And these were, when you said surrounded by women, is this a lot of other lesbians that you'd become friends with who'd had gone through similar things? Yeah, yeah. It was a, you know, it was an awful lot of, an awful lot of women that had been in relationships.

Oh, heartbreaking. And then discovered themselves. I mean, I say a lot. I mean, if you put that within society, it probably wasn't a lot. But the thing is, we were all pushed in the same space. Yeah, and anyway, it's anecdotal. It was relevant to your situation. So that meant it was a very real possibility.

Absolutely. So I backed down and for a little while I was seeing the kids a lot less often than I wanted to. It was like once a week on a Saturday for a while, you know, and then that was really hard. That must have been so hard. Because you've basically chosen, you've had to follow your own path for a little bit and chosen something that on the surface of it might seem quite a,

well, it's not selfish exactly, but it's something that's all about your happiness, isn't it, and your future. But you've had to put all these other people yeah i was i was bloody miserable i was anything but happy i um i i couldn't i i couldn't get into a relationship i didn't feel it was the right time i didn't want to bring anybody into into this it was our problem to sort out. And bringing someone into that was just going to add to the mess. So I wasn't seeing anybody. And it was just a case of we're trying to work through this thing

to see where we wanted to go. And then, you know, a bit down the road, I'd met Delish. Just before meeting Delish, I was working two, three jobs, even though I was actually very ill at the time. And I was trying to save money for a deposit because I knew if I had some, I didn't have anywhere to take the kids. I was living in a squat in Hackney. I'm in Hackney, but the other side of Hackney,

the less lubious side of Hackney. Yeah, Hackney before it was Hackney. Hackney that was full of awful old, almost derelict houses with no heating. you know there's always something in them that meant they were cheap and you know women uh had moved in and taken them over made them as nice as they could but they were often missing something important like heating or hot water if you got heating you might you might not have a lot of hot water. Anyway, so for a tenner a week, I moved in to one of these places

while I was saving money and obviously still paying the mortgage and maintenance to Keith and blah, blah, blah. Someone had to be there for the kids and somebody had to earn the money. So you had three jobs at that time as well? Yeah, because I wanted wow i had no way to take the kids i couldn't take them to the squat because the women didn't want them there and i

could and i didn't want to take them anywhere it wasn't an environment for them and um i didn't want to i did see them at home i mean to start to start with. I went there every evening and far from living the gay life, I was going to work, going back to the house, cooking supper, putting the kids to bed, doing the washing and then going back to my squat, 10, 11 at night, getting up early in the morning to start again. And because I didn't want Keith to feel he was abandoned, I didn't want Keith to feel he was abandoned, I didn't want him to feel he was alone.

And I was probably full of good old Irish Catholic guilt. So I was doing everything I could to make their life easier and to try and normalise it. So Mummy came in from work, she cooked the supper, she bathed and put into bed with dad's help and um and you know i was around yeah they didn't know i was around until the morning when um i could have gone to work anyway i wouldn't have seen them yeah in the early mornings for nursing duties. But whatever. So I got the money together and I bought a flat

and then hurrah, I had someone to bring them to. So I could then start negotiating with Keith to have more time with the boys. And how old were their boys at this time? How little were they? Roughly. They were about four and five. Oh, still very little.

Still very little, yeah. So they weren't aware of anything about your new sense of yourself? No, James was. Oh, really? Yeah, James was. And maybe a year older than that. I should have written the dates down. No, you don't have to do that.

It's how you remember it is as much a part of the story as the actual facts, in a way, because that's your perception of it. And it's interesting what your brain does prioritise. But they were just, you know, you could you know could sense what was happening a bit and i mean did you ever feel did you ever have any conversations with him about about any of it in a sort of broader sense or was it just did you just keep the focus on you know your dad and i still still love you still love each other but but we just need to do something different now.

No, I told them what I thought they could understand. Oh, yeah. Probably more all the way along. So apart from them being very small. Because Dan, I know Dan was two when I started living in this house, this squat. So that would have been immediately after we separated, Keith and I. So he was, you know, he was... Keith always remembers that day as well.

So he was two. I think Dan had a birthday. james had started kicking off monica was there and saying this is because you can't sort yourselves out and it wasn't he was just having a tantrum or you know it's what they do yeah but people read all sorts of things into your situation when they know it. It's all because you've got a sore knee. It's not. It's all because you're a lesbian. Everything is because you're a lesbian.

There's been a tsunami somewhere. It's because you're a lesbian. Well, actually, as a newly, someone who'd just come out, did you have much of a sense of what it was like to be a lesbian in that time? So this is all in the early 1980s, isn't it? Or was it very much just thinking about one step in front of the other in your own world? Not really.

I mean, you know, I did feel that I needed the company of other women and I wanted to know what was going on for women. As I say, I had no idea about the custody thing. I had no idea where women met. I had no idea about the custody thing. I had no idea where we met. I had no idea that there was a newsletter where you could, you know, sent to each other in a brown wrapper so that you could find out what was going on.

I had no idea about this whole underground world that was going on. And it was good to be part of it. It was good to be part of it was exciting to be part of it but subsequently down the road a bit when I felt able and better myself would come to this I've been a bit but I then felt I wanted to change things yes Yes. For other women to come on. So anyway, so I felt I did need, so yeah, I was kind of, I was involved in both, if you like, both communities at that stage, you know, kind of swinging back and forth. I can imagine that.

Sorry, Sophie, I can't remember the question now. No, I suppose I was asking to what extent you saw yourself as part of a bigger community of lesbians in 1980s britain i suppose and i think i suppose if you were talking to the women about you know had similar experiences of coming out and moving on from relationships where they'd had children and also starting to become aware of i suppose suppose, the element of the seed of activism, really, which then became a much bigger part of your life later on. Was that after you'd met Delish or was it all kind of running alongside, do you think?

No, I think that came along much later, really. Or later, anyway. Once you had a bit more strength, maybe. If there was a large gathering about something, then I would go to it. And as you say about involving the children or asking the children what they knew about, you know, this, that or the other, part of how I did speak to them,

obviously, asked them, told them about this and about that, answered their questions as much as I could. But I also felt the best way was to involve them. Not that this wasn't an intellectual thing. Yeah. This was like a gut thing. You know, I'm going to that um we'd say demonstration but

largely there were celebrations really there was as much fun as they were anything else but i know there was something there was a the greenham common dragon was one of the very first things it was a the dragon they're taking the dragon away from Greenham and parading it around London just to raise awareness and a bit of money. And so I thought, well, that would be fun. I'd like to go on that. Because it was a woman's thing and it wasn't entirely a lesbian base.

I was interested in feminism. So I took Dana James to that and um they loved it they had a great time I was spot rotten by them um uh you know it was a real mixed bunch of you know booted lesbians and and heterosexual women with frilly scarves you know it was a real kind of um lovely mix and um so yeah so the boys were entertained spoil give them food um play games with i mean they were falling asleep before i could get them home, they wanted to go home. So, but, you know, I got them back home and, you know, they were going on about, well, when can we go to the next one?

Can we go to the next party? Can we go to the next party? Party with the flags. Party with the flags, don't you say? Party with the flags. Party with the flags, don't you say? Party with the flags. And you just, so it was a real mixture of fun and tension for a long time until I'd got my own place and somewhere to bring them to. I'd got my own place and somewhere to bring them to.

And then, as I say, bit by bit, through talking and dealing with each other's fears and encouraging Keith to not be unkind here but take control of the situation, not allowing everybody else's thoughts to particularly his mom is very powerful lady it still scares me but uh well she's just about dozen now she's 90 just about comfortable with her um but to you know she's quite quite a formidable lady. And so he did used to listen to her far too much and do what she wanted rather than what he wanted.

So when we started going down that road, we both were much happier with finding our own ways. And he enjoyed being a single dad. He enjoyed all the status it gave him. And all the women thought he was marvellous. He never went to so many coffee parties. He must have been, you know, just like shaking by the end of the day with all the coffees he was given.

And it just, yeah, the women at the school, the day of all the coffees he was given and it just yeah the women at the school at the gate really spoiled him and he got to know all of them and they looked out for him I guess as well with you and with your breakup

you know once all the sort of anger and the hurt starts to dissipate and the new life unfolds for both of you and you both find yourselves you know, once all the sort of anger and the hurt starts to dissipate and the new life unfolds for both of you and you both find yourselves, you know, moving on, it probably really mattered to him that, you know, his sons could see their mother happy, engaged, you know, getting involved in, as you say, the celebrations, the activism, you know, it's a good thing to raise more male feminists, actually. You know, and it sounds like both of you had the sort of, you know, the sense of peace of mind

to actually want to give that to Dan and to James and to raise them in that way. I'm sure that, you know, Keith would want them to be celebrating their mum as much as anyone else. It's just that there's always a bit of breakup where it's a big deal to break up after a long marriage and a shared future. Suddenly, no matter how much you love someone,

if your future changes and it wasn't your doing, that's hard, isn't it? It takes a lot of adjustment. Yeah. Yeah. It's a... It's a... I don't know.

I think if either of us could have seen down the line whether we'd have had the courage to proceed with it. But, you know, it's one foot in front of the other. And as I say, I think it was a bit later on, certainly, and if you asked him now, he would have, obviously, he'd say that. Of course, he'd want, you know, he says, he always teases me and says, you know, can't do enough for a good ex-wife.

Well, we're still married. He didn't divorce me. That's quite sweet. I think we're going to wait for Monica to pass before we can't divorce. Yeah, exactly. It's like the final thing. Yeah.

She still sent us a bottle of something for our 40th anniversary. Really? Oh, Monica, let it go. It's never going to happen. It's not, is it? Never going to happen. Yeah. And I still visit her now.

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe she's thinking it's just a phase Kath absolutely and she's hanging on in there she will let go I will win so when you've got your own

place, you met Delish and that became a really long and happy relationship, which saw you become a parent again, because together you had Tashka. Absolutely. And what was the process of parenthood and becoming parents like for a lesbian couple at that time? Well, it was a lot better, you know, as kind of almost as every year went by, really.

It seemed to be getting a bit easier. But it seemed, it was very stark at the outset. You know, you lost your kids, you lost your life. And lots of women did lose their lives, there's no question about it. And it was, you you know it was um it's kind of like oh we survived that but the you know issue still cropped up it's still going to be you know every Christmas who's having who or every birthday who's coming to what party you know um

I think Keith and I could tolerate each other much more than the parents could. So for many, many years I didn't see his family. And my brother's disowned for me. Really? Except Vincent because he's also gay. Oh, wow. But, yeah, so my eldest brother and my next brother and the next brother, so three brothers.

Wow. Just, I didn't see them in over 20 years. One of them had died by the time we got back in touch. Well, his wife got back in touch with me, which was when they saw I'd got my MBE, they got back in touch. Well, his wife got back in touch with me, which was when they saw I'd got my MBE, they got back in touch. Right. And so I hadn't injected myself and drunk myself into a gutter of my kids behind me.

Yeah. But all these horrible, you know, projections of lesbian women on TV and everywhere, which way, it's just not a nice, you know, Sister George, it's very much the killing of Sister George. The film is very much how women were treated. What's the killing of Sister George? I'm not familiar with that. Yeah, yeah, it's a classic, it's a classic film. Brilliant actresses in it, brilliant actresses.

You'd know the names, Sophie, if I said them. If I couldn't do them myself, you'd know them. That's one worth digging out for anybody. But the acting's good. Anyway, it was... So it was like, yeah, so I hadn't seen Colin, who was like another dad to me because he looked after me when I was small because both mum and dad worked.

And then when dad died, dad had a heart attack when I was 13 when he first got ill and I was 15 when he died. And so Colin kind of took over, was almost like the dad of the house. But his and my relationship was always very strong. So I missed him the most. Having lost my dad, I then lost him. And that was really hard, not seeing him again.

I was, you know, as well as being his auntie, I was godmother to his son and he had two, born two girls and I loved them to bits. I was doing my GCSE when his first child was born and I was doing needlework of all things. Surprise, surprise. And I made Paula romper suit. You know, I was just so mad about them.

Yeah, I just didn't see that. Not an easy thing to do, make a romper suit. No, that sounds like a stretchy fabric as well. I've heard that's not right. It's not easy. I can still see the green check. Terrible. Anyway, so, yeah, we were very close.

So that was really hard. And my next brother, I did see him. We got back in touch. He came and saw Dan play. He was around for two years and then he died um banged his head um extending his garage and he had a bleed wasn't really noticed and he he um I'm sorry that's tragic yeah he died in hospital just slowly and so that was really sad

we were looking forward to spending more time with him he'd met Edie and he wanted to wait till she was a bit bigger so he could chase her around and this was very typical Graham you know but always the fun

one the family the, as we called him. And so that was sad. That was hard. Really hard. And so my, you know, my family, my own family, my own children and my partner, I suppose, became more and more important because everything else dropped off. My mother didn't really want to see me. And then she developed a stroke so she couldn't talk to me anyway.

So that was really hard for both of us. And in fact, when I was in hospital having my spinal cord open, she was in another hospital dying. So it was really, really really hard difficult time it's like everything happens so for those years it was just like whoa where's the next thing yeah um satellites out the sky or whatever um and then so uh tashka douche Dush and I had been together a decent time, about eight years, I think. Oh, a long time.

And we started talking about, she started talking about wanting a child. And I was quite surprised because I thought it would have worn off by now, being around my two, because she was very much the other mum. You know, there was, much the other mom you know there was dan would always you know kids talk to each other and they're on um you know we used to go to these sort of campsites and play parks or together thing and and um we and kids just chat to each other when they're on a holiday they find find another friend and they start chatting. And Dan's line was always, who do you live with?

You know, it's this little question, isn't it? I live with my mum and my dad. I live with my mum and my nan or whatever. And Dan used to say, I live with my mum and my doodish and my dad. My mum and my doodish. my mum and my dad. My mum and my dad. He's like, what's a dealish, Dan? Exactly.

And James has been that much older, was better at, not that much older, but he took on the role of the big brother for Dan, you know, when they were very little and they kind of got lost in the park one day

and it was just like, oh. You know when you turn around and you can't see your children? It's probably never happened to you, but Dears and I were chatting about something and we both took our mind off. Usually we've both got our eye on the children. Yeah, of course. Once in our lifetime, we both took it off at the same time.

We'd turn around, where are they? And of course they'd taken off as soon as our eyes were turned, it seemed. And they hadn't got far, but we didn't know that. Yeah, no, it's terrifying. Those minutes feel like they've gone for hours. Yeah, we had the people of the, I think it was a little festival, local thing.

So, you know, there were voices being called out, you know, if you see two little boys, and see and um anyway they were they they were found and they weren't very they were just the other side of the field but we were looking too far and um anyway they came back and and um you could see j James had been crying, you know, with tears down his side. But Dan just looked fine. He looked fine. Typical Dan, you know, sunny side up Dan, you know. And so Dish looked over at him and said,

Tashka, you know, not Tashka, Dan, are you not upset? So he said, well, I wasn't lost. I was with James. And it's that kind of relationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a kind of just... Proper big brother. It was just so poignant that that was it.

You know, James looked after me and everything else was fine. So, and James kind of continues that role with Tashka. So, and Tashka was born, James would have been 11 and Dan was 10. So, yeah. And that was quite a, as I say, getting from the shock of, I think I want to have a baby to, okay, how are we going to do that?

Yeah. So how did you do that? Why did we do that? No, not why, how. How did you go about becoming? Exactly. I'd helped a lot of other women get pregnant because that's what they wanted. When you said you helped them, what do you mean?

You were helping them find... We provided the sperm because it was still of a time when women weren't getting custody of their kids. That was definitely not an on. So women were too concerned about involving a bloke and also then they probably wouldn't want the guy involved in the relationship. They would want to be the two parents. And if, you know, on the basis that there are lots of examples

of fellas saying, well, we only want to see them every so often, and then finding that they're actually applying for custody of one of those kids or both of those kids. So there was a lot of anxiety and fear around all that issue. So the best thing was just to provide the sperm. So we used to interview men, sit them down in front of a film about lesbians, how they didn't get any help to have babies and how they very much wanted babies often.

And it's very hard after that to say, no, we won't help. But where were you finding these? How were you recruiting the guys? Just sort of word of mouth? Yeah, word around of word of mouth it's what yeah word around word of mouth and um where were you so they were coming what around women's brothers just coming around to your what's your house or was it this isn't this isn't an official thing is it this was this more no this was just um yeah it's like providing condoms to women in Ireland. It was always done under the counter, so to speak. So you'd get these guys come round and you'd say,

watch this film. Yeah, watch this film. Wouldn't it be good if some of you might want to be donors? And then you'd say, if any of you do, the equipment's in the bathroom. Wow. And you'd provide little bottles any of you do, equipment's in the bathroom. Wow. And he'd provide little bottles, little jars. Yep.

And, you know, they would obviously put who they were and you'd check that there were any major illnesses, whatever. This is, I think, what I came to do to myself quite a lot. Because we could ask sensible questions. So you were doing it in quite a sort of official paperwork kind of way, even though the whole thing was off the grid? Absolutely off the grid and no sign of anything. We kept it in our heads, really. It wasn't a big enough number of people to do it to to to not remember the guys you know so um

yeah so we've done it for a few friends and that had worked out so there were babies born out of all of that yeah thing yeah sometimes you'd have to have two or three goes but yeah a lot of it worked and without being too sort of, I don't know, I'm trying to think of the word nuts and bolts about it, it's all coming to mind. Is this like literally like a sort of turkey baster type of an experience? Yeah, but it doesn't take a lot of sperm really to make a baby. So, I'm sure you know so um you would know um anyway so

we yeah they they provide this specimen yeah and we'd meet the woman and tell her you know how long she had to keep it warm and get home and put it in. I mean, we could usually put a syringe or something in with it. It's a small syringe. And with that, they'd draw up probably about five mils of sperm and insert it into the girlfriend. And that, legs up, that would do the job. Well, that's, I mean, did you know...

Sister on a cushion. Did you know other people that were providing that service for lesbian couples? Not really. There must have been other women around, but there wasn't really any networking or anything about it because, you know, it probably wasn't anything like remotely legal or acceptable or moral or any other thing so the best thing was to and you know it was important not to expose the men if they didn't want to be exposed and some did and some didn't and likewise with the women

you know um there's not letting, we didn't want their kids to find out if they weren't meant to find out. You know, there was a lot of trust going on. Yeah, I can see that. So I suppose, yeah, it was very much a kind of very basic physical thing. Not a turkey baster in sight. Far too big. Yeah, I realise. I see my error now.

It was strange. So with the donors, they would then have nothing to do with the, you know, any babies that came out of that. They weren't involved. Well, each one is different. Oh, really? So it's incredibly bespoke, all done on a very case-by-case basis. Yeah, yeah, some would, some wouldn't.

Some would say maybe down the line a bit. That's an amazing thing to be part of. That's real, you know, future happy stuff, that. Well, when we had... When Tashka was born, there weren't any lesbian or lesbian mother baby groups. So we started one. And it was great fun.

And so was it a similar process of getting pregnant for Delish then? Yeah, um, yeah, Delish, um, we had a friend that used to come and, yeah, Doolish, we had a friend that used to come and spend a lot of time at the house and was great, knew James and Dan and they were, from when they were tiny. Lovely woman and she offered her brothers who, you know, asked them if they wanted to see the film or whatever. And a couple of them did.

And it was from one of those donors that we made. And Dears was happy because he was a curly-haired Irish fella. because he was a curly-haired Irish fella. So, yeah, so that was little Tashka coming along. And I was there through her, I was in the hospital with her during the entire process of, you know, obviously starting the contractions through to the birth. Amazing. Afterwards, that amazing cup of tea you have when you know, obviously starting the contractions through to the birth. Amazing. Afterwards, that amazing cup of tea.

I felt I needed a bomb on my feet. I've been walking around, holding her up and then massaging her toe. Not my toe, my back. It's exhausting. But, you know, it was, I couldn't believe it. I thought she was so clever. I couldn't relate it to what I did. I was going to say that, yeah, you've been through the same thing yourself,

but you just felt different when it wasn't you. That's actually a very unique perspective to have, isn't it, on becoming a parent when you've been the one previously to carry the babies and then seeing your partner go through the same thing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it it was amazing it really was amazing I did just I sit now when I see James and and Daisy when she's produced another child he looks at her like she's you know she's just the most amazing creature that I've ever put on this planet, you know. And I certainly thought the English was amazing. Noisy, but amazing.

And so clever to use that chart. But yeah, you could hear her streets away. Unlike me, I was quiet. I was well behaved. Don't do anything wrong. I was far too quiet. I was quiet I was well behaved don't do anything wrong I was far too quiet it's far too inhibited yeah well maybe if you'd had a baby later on you might have been a bit noisier you're still in your quiet quieter phase of your life I was I was I was trying to do it all right well talking about a more noisy phase when you you founded regard which is the disability lgbtq activism group like is that over 30 years ago now yeah yeah so around the time that tashka was born is

that 89 90 yes yeah a couple of years after after tashka was born i've've been in, I mean, I've worked. Even though my disability was coming on, I had to have periods when I was off, but by and large, I always worked. So I just had to work, do a job share instead of a full-time work, which I like because I could spend more time with the boys at home. And I could do work at home.

Because I was a job share at London. It was on a borough of Camden. And with Jane Campbell, who's in the house, she's Dame Jane of Surbiton now. She's in the House of Lords. And, yeah, so we... It's largely training disabled people to become trainers, awareness trainers and then equality trainers as it became,

as it becalls now. Intersectionality it's called now i think anyway diversity but it was a it's always the same thing by different yeah yeah you know but we're looking at equality and we're developing courses but the thing is you could do it meant that i could not only work those three days, but I could throw in the extra course at the weekend and earn some extra money for the family. So it was do it as you could as well. I didn't have to do the self-employment thing if I didn't feel like it. And if I wasn't well enough, I'd just stick to the three days. And then obviously because I was doing awareness stuff,

I was working with disabled people on the left hand and lesbians on the right hand and the two never mixed, the LGB community and the disability community, never mixed. And I felt, oh, I need to do something about this. Yes. As I said about, you you know you go back and

you look at something you think oh I need to I need to change this now yeah I need to I need to make it different so going in and assessing up regard was to bring those two communities together so they could learn about each other and they could provide services for each other yeah so like you know get some clubs that were accessible get some you know pamphlets and the from the gay community that was accessible um have interpreters and all this kind of thing on the other hand get lesbians to appreciate or get disabled people to appreciate that the lg existed. Yeah. And that, you know, because they were very down on it, because sex was not something to say people ever talked about. So talking about other sexualities was horrific for them, really.

They were not used to it. So obviously that's in general, but there was a lot of awareness raising needed doing and acceptance and fear fear is always something that stops progress it's just fear you know if we if we include all this lgbt stuff into our disability work people won't want to talk to us as disabled people just that kind of fear so yeah it was bringing those two together i've set up regard it was yeah 1989 90 so so these years ago yeah that's so forward thinking i think because actually you know you think about the importance of i don't know pride marches and gay clubs and all that that

community but you you i should imagine that as you said a lot of people might have gone well you know if you're um right you're a lesbian you want to go to a gay club there you go there's your gay club and then oh what you're a disabled okay so that means you can't go to that one but you can do all that other stuff because we're working on that over here it's like no i want to be able to go to that club that's where i want to be yeah and having to actually think about the access and i don't know if it's a pride march about where the vantage points are and where you can where wheelchairs can go and how you get access to all those things that just normally would just totally fall off the radar really yeah it was terrible yeah sophie to start with absolutely shocking yeah i hadn't got

a balls notion as they say back home anywhere they really really didn't have a clue and there was a lot of resistance you know people didn't want to do it so to encourage them to want to do it and did you have lots of people coming up to you you know as soon as you started forming the organisation saying this means so much to me I felt a bit invisible

up until now oh stop I mean that used to make me cry every time because whenever we put on a large enough event, there's always someone. It used to amaze me how people used to, you know, I used to use a power wheelchair for work, but, you know, I could get into my ordinary wheelchair to get home, get in the car, whatever.

But, you know, do you have to use a power wheelchair all the time out on the street? It's pretty heavy going because you don't know where the drop curbs are. whatever but you know you have to use a power wheelchair all the time out on the street it's pretty heavy going because you don't know where the drop curbs are the whole the whole nine yards you know how it goes trying to get on a train that's not accessible etc and they weren't accessible in those days but we on many occasion we'd have people that would women that would travel she was women some men obviously travel, obviously, travel, you know, miles that come down from Scotland, they would come from all over the place to get to London to

meet another person like them, because they had never met a disabled person, never met a witch or user that was a lesbian. Wow. Never met, never met, you know, someone of small stature who was gay a gay man i mean it was just unbelievable that they put themselves through so much and without bringing their carers you know couldn't bring an assistant with them which they really needed because that person would tell the person back home where they'd be. It's extraordinary, isn't it? And that was too... Oh, it was extraordinary. I can't believe, really, when I think about it,

which I don't that often, but when I do, how hard it was. And so, yeah, I used to sob. I'd get them to stay in my house the weekend so that they could have a chat about their lives. And it made the boys very comfortable with disabled people. They saw them coming into the house. We used to have meetings.

We were 10 years before we got an office. We had all the regard meetings at our house. So they'd see, you know, this one's blind, that one's deaf, this one's a whole bunch of disabled people with different impairments going around the house, you know, having tea, more cups of tea, this one's staying over, that one's going home. And they just got very comfortable with it.

Do you think it helped you? I mean, was there any part of you that needed to come to terms with being disabled? I mean, we haven't... When you've spoken about it, you've spoken about it in a sort of fairly matter-of-fact way, in a way, like, well, that's just what was happening then, so this is how I adjusted but you know this is that there's another whole other thing that you were dealing with and fluctuations with that and changes of what you're capable with

and I mean when you look back did it can you sort of see how much you were really having to cope with all the time it's a lot of things to take on it was it's certainly spinning i mean i if i look back i think a did you really do that and b you must have been bonkers fruitcake what did you do that for um i did you know not being able to ask for help because you didn't know you could trust um a lot of that meant you kept things inside you didn't really until much later on when I felt when I'd met other people and I felt much stronger and I felt you know if Keith had any difficulties with anything I could cope with it. But increasingly, he didn't really.

And I've had a few, you know, well, what's it going to be like if he were there? But by and large, he didn't. And often he would come along. He would come along as well in the end. So, but I, it's changing now quite a lot my impairment um having a lot of incontinence to deal with now it's feeling it is double incontinence which i'm dealing with now because my over the last three to four years my spinals my spinal cord um it's like a cyst in the cord and it was always

the same size and it's grown significantly so it's because now it's lower down the back it's hitting my almost from all my waist down so walking is much harder. Yeah. And, but I've lost bladder and bowel control. It's gone. And it's very hard if you go somewhere and, you know, I have no idea what's happening. Yeah. Even in the bath, I don't know what's going to happen. So, you know, I'm still trying to work at, you know, regimes.

You know, if I do this every day with my bowel, learn to empty it these times. You know, we're trying all sorts of different products, potions, herbs, physios, you know, to see if it will help. But, you know, I never thought, I always said to myself, when I get to that far, that's it, I'm ending it. But, you know, you have those days, but then you have days where, you know,

Daisy sends me Kitty, you know, pushing her belly out and I want to see Kitty in the flesh pushing her belly out, you know. Yeah. And there's always something else I want to do. And, you know, I love those kids. But, yeah, I was the one that did say that when it gets that, that's it, that's when I'll stop. I'll take myself off with Dignitas and, you know, end it.

It's not really how the human spirit works though is it as well it's like um the the will to to push on and survive things is actually it it's a it's a loudest louder shout than that i think it's not really it's not you never well obviously i don't have a first-hand experience of it but what from what i can see, that will of the human spirit to keep going even when the box gets smaller and the room gets smaller is actually, it's a really strong desire, that. Yeah, it's a real fight. It is a real fight, yeah.

Yeah. And I think that's the, I think what you're saying just briefly, what you were saying earlier about, about the, you know, when you're saying just briefly, what you were saying earlier about when you're in the situation, when you're just told you've got to have your kids now or you're just told the cyst is going this way and it's pressing on this nerve and whatever,

things are deteriorating in a different way. in a different way um you might have you know an hour perhaps of sinking but then then you know before you know it you're fine you're trying to find a way around it you know fighting which you fighting yes hanging on by the skin of your teeth and actually to get done quite a lot of that haven't you quite a lot of fighting and hanging on by the skin of your teeth and actually to get done quite a lot of that haven't you quite a lot of fighting and hanging on by the skin of your teeth it's been a bit of a thing i don't want to anymore i want to lay down and play with my grandkids and have some fun well those days will come those days will come we know you'll have you've had your second vaccine now as well so you know it all starts to open up again and i suppose i'm a conscious i'd love to have met you in the flesh i know well don't worry sorry about that don't worry it's look we're still we're still in the precarious time we

haven't seen richard's parents in over a year and a half you know it's it's important to uh i think we've gone become quite good at being patient and we have and you know we have all i've had my first jab you've had to like you know there is progress yeah um so i guess you're right just to sort of finish up, because I'm aware I've kept you for a really long time. Yeah, yeah. How significant was it when you received your MBE after all the things you'd gone through

to get to that point in your life? I couldn't believe it. To start with. I passed it to James and said, you know, can you read that for me? I'm not sure it's for me. I made a mistake. So it took me a while to absorb it. But, you know, I was blown away.

I was blown away and delighted and felt very humble as well. Yeah. and delighted and felt very humble as well. Yeah. And I also, you know, I did have a bit of time to reflect on all those people that, as I say, put themselves out to travel miles to see another human like them. Yeah.

I mean, it was, you know, that was amazing. But I also, when I looked at the paper, it says for services to the disabled, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender community. I thought, how are they going to say that? But they did. I just got Tashka's, I just turned and got Tashka's big grin at the back of the hall and I was having a good chuckle.

Yeah, well, I think, you know, so much of the LGBTQ community and its progression is about whose shoulders they're standing on at each point to get, you know, to raise them up to the next bit. So you're you're you're you've given your shoulders now that's a that's an amazing thing and to go from someone that felt they didn't really have much of a voice with that to now actually being someone's been recognized in that way is is brilliant and also you haven't put me off custard which is another i i love custard even the gory tale we started with can't put me off custard.

No, that's funny. Forget it. Forget what I said. I didn't say it. And you have the legacy of your lovely sons and your grandbabies. That's a good thing too. Thank you so much, Kath. Well, and you.

You're an amazing woman. Oh, no. God, come on. Come on. Listen to your story. No, no, no. I'm not coming on. You are amazing, and this is all important work, and it needs to be done, and you're doing it.

Oh, it's a privilege. Fabulous. I love these, I mean, honestly, the stories, what people have achieved, ah, it's brilliant. It's just so exciting. That's right. And I'm very glad to give you a space to record it, and then, yeah, and then Dan can listen back to it.

I have been listening to your podcast and I think they're amazing. Cool, thank you. Well, thank you for being part of it. I always think of it a bit like a desert island and every person I interview, we're like getting a good clan of people. So yeah, welcome to the island. Brilliant. Thank you very much.

Proud to be there. Thank you very much proud to be there thank you so much to kath for sharing her incredible story isn't that incredible so many amazing moments um i always know when i've had a particularly delightful conversation with the podcast because i go around telling everybody about the conversation i've just had and everybody's jaws drop at exactly the same moments my did and get the goosebumps at the same moment and Kath's story is just incredible incredible what strength I can't get my head around that it's so moving actually makes me want to cry the idea of living in the squat and working the two jobs and earning the money and still going back to look after the boys in their own homes so that you could just keep custody, keep access to your

children. Because in the 80s, a lot of lesbian women were not able to still see their kids. It's absolutely heartbreaking. And what an incredible job Kath has done to help other disabled members and supporters of the LGBTQ community keep them having access to those events. The significance of that is huge, actually. One thing I didn't make clear in my intro, I realised, is that Kath actually is, she is in a long-term loving relationship with her girlfriend, Lynn.

And very sweetly, Lynn is someone I asked her about. I didn't even realise this, but Lynn is someone I asked her about. I didn't even realize this, but Lynn is someone she actually dated way back at the beginning, one of her first girlfriends. And now they are back together and very happy they are too. So yeah, what an amazing story. Just incredible. And I don't think, she doesn't seem to realize quite how strong she is. That might just be my perception but that's how it feels and so kind and supportive too ah so thank you so much Rizzo is still with me would you believe she's just sat here quietly you know I sound surprised because Rizzo of all my three

cats she's normally really standoffish but she sat here with me the whole time I've been with you that's very nice for me, actually. Good bit of therapy catting. Anyway, that's enough from me. I've got to go and still choose what outfit I'm going to wear today. I don't know. It's either going to be this. They're all vintage. I've got a yellow dress, a kind of sparkly peach one, and a blue one. I'm leaning towards sparkly peach. That's the mood I'm in today. Hope you're in a sparkly peach mood yourselves. I'll see you next week. Best love. Thank you.