Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 34: Emma Barnett

Episode Date: June 28, 2021

Journalist Emma Barnett is a regular presenter of Newsnight andhas recently become the main presenter of Woman's Hour on BBC Radio 4.She's good at asking questions and bringing people to account but saysshe's had to learn patience because as a mum, 'losing your shit' getsyou nowhere! Emma struggled to get pregnant, which after two and halfyears she realised was because of endometriosis. She had her babythrough IVF but she says she will always have one foot in the camp ofthose who would like to be mothers but have not managed it. We talkedabout childcare, we talked about periods a lot, and if you stay listening tillthe end you will hear us sharing our most embarrassing stories with each other. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Greetings, podcats. How's tricks? I am speaking to you from a quiet room, today's quiet room anyway, because Mickey's having a nap, so I'm in his room, he's sleeping in his buggy. And if your ears are very, very, very finely tuned,

you might be able to just hear the gentle whir of the washing machine, which I always quite like. There's a space in our house where we do all the laundry, and I actually just really like being in there. Is that weird? I like the way the detergent smells. And I like the fact that it's a kind of productive, useful space. And there's something quite reassuring about the whole thing.

I think it's also where I went to hide for a lot of lockdown. Because laundry was kind of something I put my hand in the air for. So I did all the laundry. So I spent a lot of hours in that room and actually it was quite nice just seal myself away for a little bit anyway maybe you have a similar space in your home I don't know it's quite nice to have a little space that's sort of you can squirrel away to sometimes I'm trying to create more of them around the house um I didn't really know I was going to tell you about all of that, but I guess hearing the washings made me think of it all. And I am looking around the room.

I can see all the clothes are left out from last week's. I did a photo shoot, actually that must be two weeks ago now, for the cover of my book. That's quite exciting, isn't it? It's quite funny because the book is an autobiography and I talk about lots of stuff, things that I think hopefully you'll find a bit amusing, stuff that made me laugh anyway,

but then also stuff that's a bit more personal, intimate and serious. So for the cover, I was trying to focus sort of a little bit of both, a kind of Mona Lisa-esque, you know, if you read a funny bit and you close it and look at the cover, I look like maybe I'm smiling with you. If I'm telling a serious bit, you can look at the cover and be like,

oh, yeah, she looks a bit sad. When I showed it to my eldest, Sonny, he just said, oh, you look a bit sad in all these pictures, which wasn't really my um my goal so let's see if you pick up an autobiography with a sad looking woman on the cover who's also trying to maybe look a little bit like she's smiling it just might be me anyway uh this week's guest so this week i speak to emma barnett so emma barnett is someone that i've listened to lots on the radio, on her own news channel. Oh God, I'm sorry, I realise I'm recording the wrong place. It's fine,

I sorted it out. Yeah, listening to her on the radio, she's recently become the main host of Women's Hour since the beginning of this year. She used to sometimes go on there and present it before now, but now she's the official main presenter and she regularly does news nights. So I confess, whenever I speak to women who are whip smart like that, like journalistic types, I do get a little bit intimidated, but there was no need for it. Emma was completely lovely and charming and candid and honest with me, which was wonderful because we covered lots and lots of stuff, with me, which was wonderful because we covered lots and lots of stuff, everything from periods to endometriosis to difficulties with getting pregnant. So Emma spent over two years trying

to have her little boy. And we also spoke about embarrassing stories. I've got so many of them. But Emma has a really good one. If you are listening to this and you fancy sharing, I'd love to hear your embarrassing stories. I feel like everybody's got at least one or two where it's a real, like, every time you think of it, it just brings back that real cringe of embarrassment. Anyway, don't hear it from me. Hear it from Emma and I,

and I will sit here in the quiet room listening with you and see you on the other side. Thanks for lending me your ears once more. See you soon so how are you finding everything at women's hour women's hours it's it's great it's been it's it's lovely and we are now at an hour which i'm so excited about yeah because that's what it says on the tin so we've i'm speaking to you at the end of the first week of that in its 75 year history so yeah I know I was looking that up 75 years is a long time and also I was I didn't realize that every presenter stays for a really long time

like sometimes over a decade yes yeah I mean my predecessor is as kind of the you know the main the main presenter is Jenny Murray. And she was there, I believe, 33 years, which when I took over in January, I was 35. So that is the whole time I was alive by two years. That's amazing. And so when I can talk to you when you're 70 and see how you're finding everything. Yeah, I mean, I don't even like to say minutes if you want by then. No, but I'm one of those people that gets very nervous about, you know, when people say, oh, is this your your house now, for instance, is this it? That's the last house, the one.

And I go, no, of course not. Because the thought of anything being always is quite, I find it quite a breathless. Me too. Really claustrophobic, actually. I don't like planning way in advance at all. Six months down the line is about as far as I'm comfortable, I think. Also, you have a lot of people that you're managing. Yeah, but for all I know, they might like a little bit more structure. I think it's just me. I think that's me being pretty selfish there really I just I I sort of predict and I suspect that we'll stay living here for another five years but I don't really like I don't like sort of voicing it it makes me feel a bit tight yeah I know exactly

that's exactly yeah that's just that feeling that you know doesn't have to be like this it could be something else and when you say you just had a meeting about the book is this the book period are you still is this like promoting the the next yes so we're just um we're just getting out the paperback which has been delayed a couple of times due to the pandemic and bookshops not being open and I wrote some extra content for it which has been lovely because I've had so many conversations with women and men up and down the country when we were allowed but also on air about a lot of the issues that you know I wanted to explore that and people now come and you know I was on a shoot yesterday for it and there's only eight people on the shoot uh this is for some media coverage for the paper and the papers and

three of the women I'm there with have endometriosis and then one has some issues with fertility herself you know all these things are part of our every day but they are still talked about in quite hushed tones and people now seek me out yeah well I actually was thinking that in a way there's a bit of serendipity I mean I appreciate that putting the paper back you know postponing that release is frustrating but at the same time the fact that you're able There's a bit of serendipity. I mean, I appreciate that putting the paper back, you know, postponing that release is frustrating. But at the same time, the fact that you're able to broadcast and the last few, you know, 14 months, I think radio has taken even more significance in my life, actually.

It felt like community so much of the time and hearing voices, having chats about all sorts of things, especially things outside of the pandemic, was such a welcome addition to the atmosphere in my home so I think it's probably quite timely. I think it has been it's been a huge privilege and it's also been very upsetting at times to to be on the radio you know with people during this time and I think especially from well I started the pandemic for the majority

of it I was at Five Live still where I was doing the morning program and that's a three-hour daily program with everything going on in it and a lot of people getting in touch and they did want is that mixture exactly as you say of escape but also to reflect these very unique moments and you just become aware sometimes of what you're recording and before I joined Woman's Eye I read up on its history and there's a couple of huge books that I really enjoyed looking through of how women's role and our lives and even our voices have changed and all these different things but you are aware sometimes at the moment that you are making the archive for the future you'll be having a conversation, I did the other day,

with a woman who'd just come off stage the night before the first reopening, you know, on Monday evening, as it is this week. And she's talking about a semi-empty theatre, but the love in the room, the feeling of being with people again, and just the fact she's describing that as so odd, will be listened back to in 70 years' time or so.

And people will think how odd that we didn't have this for a long time. Or just to say one more example, which I think might pertain to what we'll come on to. I was very aware, I think it was January, I mean, it had been going on all last year, but when I joined Women's Hour in January, I was very aware we had to try and find voices to express the load that women were carrying now it's not to say that only women are carrying it but we know disproportionately that so much of the homeschooling the extra care we know women have given up jobs or are giving up promotions or giving up being on the fast track in the law or whatever they're doing or they just simply haven't had any work and they've had to do everything else you have to try and find those voices to reflect it and what I found so interesting is so many women in that exact position

don't want to come on the radio actually and complain that's how they view it they they think well there's so many other people so worse off that I mustn't say anything. But they're breaking. You know, a lot of those women are at breaking point. And we did finally find someone. She didn't want to do it under her real name. And, you know, nobody's going to represent everybody, but she really has to work. Her husband works outside the home.

They have three children, all being homeschooled. Her work actually made her do more work, otherwise she was going to lose her job. And she just didn't want to say anything bad publicly but we gave her the space and I again think that will be something people will listen back to and see really have we come as far as we think we have with what women do yeah no I think you're right I think there's so many conversations that have come up as a direct result from, you know, sort of typical families looking at what works best for them at a time when both people can't go out to work, what gets shelved, just the mere fact that, I can't remember the statistic now, but it's something crazy like

80% of women don't have a space in the home that's sort of designated for their work, but men are something like 60% more likely to have a space that's their own. And I'm definitely one of those people. And our house, I'm speaking to you a space that's their own. And I'm definitely one of those people. And our house, I'm speaking to you from my husband's studio, I don't have a place in the house. So whenever I was trying to do work in the last however many months, it was at the kitchen table in one of the kids' rooms, on my bed, you know, this kind of thing.

And even just finding that space. But it made me look at myself as well and decisions I'd made and ways I'd spoken about and prioritised my work. And I think, you know, quite often because I wanted to have a family, I felt like I didn't want my kids to feel like my family and my work were at conflict. So I actually kind of kept work quite far away from them. And actually that suddenly was incredibly awkward, not least for me, that I hadn't really given it a space at our table as well. So I had

to kind of build that in really I mean it's quite funny that we should be talking about this because the episode I've just broadcast literally just come from the studio was uh one element of that was about the rise a terrible name some people love the name but I thought it was quite funny and I also struggle to sort of say it is the rise of she sheds so the sale of sheds I've gone through the roof and women are loving having sheds and you know and and somewhere to call their own somewhere to work somewhere to have this space but I you know as I made the point not everybody can have that she shed really hard to say um and this this woman messaged in to say because I said obviously not everybody's going to have that or want um and this this woman messaged in to say because I said obviously not everybody's

going to have that or want that and this woman said my space because I said tell me where your space is is near my bed but away from where you can see me from the door and I create this little area and my children can't see me and that is my space also known as hiding yeah but she described it beautifully i didn't want to oh yeah well it will be interesting as you say we are sort of living living a space in the history books even one of the kids was saying it to me this morning you know this is a bit of history they're going to look back to see what children and school children experience with a pandemic like yeah absolutely it's it's so unique and I must confess I wasn't listening to Women's Hour today because I was listening to a lovely podcast that you've

done with Elizabeth Day her How to Fail podcast and it was lovely to listen to not least because you sound like such lovely friends together but also because one of the things you spoke about as one of your examples of failure was actually to do with becoming a parent and the time that you spent trying to have your little boy. Because am I right that your son is about three? Is that right? Yes. Okay. But there was two years before you had him when you were trying to have a baby. And it sort of became something that's massively defining because it also is when you found out about the endometriosis. Yes, yes, that's massively defining because it also is when is that right that when you found out about the endometriosis yes yes that's exactly right I mean and just before I say that I was going to say that I think the other thing just about this time that we're living in and women's health and everyone's

health is that we aren't getting investigated for things in the way that we normally would and we know that's going to be incredibly problematic and distressing and tragic and it already is whether it's cancer whether it's through hip replacements all those sorts of things but I do worry because women already uh we're living with some sort of discomfort or pain and not getting it seen to so I think just linking to the pandemic that's a really big concern of mine um and a big part of the book is me talking about you know I thought I is you know as someone who interviews people for a living and and certainly I interview a lot of people also my job was news night who who hold a lot of power you know you hold people to account and I thought I sort of knew my period was awful but I kind of had accepted that women in pain go together like

bread and butter you know this this was this was how it was but in in myself even though I'd gone to lots of doctors and gynecologists over the years so I had sought information but I'd always just been told I was unlucky and given some very strong painkillers when we started trying for a baby I said to my husband oh it's not going to work and he said can we can we at least just you know give this a go? And I said, oh, there's something not right with me. And I know that there isn't. And I've been dreading this stage of my life. And I hadn't really articulated it aloud until that point. And I'm also an only child.

And my mother had suffered enormously with very bad periods. And that's why she just said to me, this is how it is. Does it tend to be hereditary? Is it a hereditary condition? Yes. Okay. And my mum was, when I did get get diagnosed fast forwarding a tiny bit she looked horrified because a as a mother she was so upset she'd not been able to help me get a diagnosis for 20 years and that's how long

it was but b it was like a light went on for her yeah because she must have had this um and so many women do and so i you know the book isn't purely about that but i include this because i think be not knowing anything about our fertility and not knowing anything about our health but we sort of know when things aren't right you have to advocate for yourself and you have to push really really hard and you you have to also say to people which I am actually used to in my job and that's why I was horrified ashamed really that I hadn't got answers for myself but no that's that's not an adequate answer I need more and I need some help and honestly I took on the decision very quickly to take IVF as a route after two and a half years so basically I got diagnosed with endometriosis about halfway through trying for a baby for a long time and

I know it's not as long as others but it felt enormous amount of time to me as it always will for people um and then afterwards still didn't get pregnant after the surgery which diagnoses you and tries to treat you doesn't cure you and this lady with a really cool ponytail she's about 60 odd in the nhs she said to me can you just bloody try it ivf please can you just almost like put yourself out of your misery and even if it doesn't work you have a period for two months and i'm sold i was like okay take me there um and you know we obviously uh i couldn't believe it worked you know and that's where my luck actually finally came in because it was a hellish two and a half years. What do you think the reluctance was about IVF? What, what did it represent to you that, that made you not want to depart from, you know, the not knowing about the period bit, but what, what was putting before that?

And I just wanted to do it naturally. You know, I'm not a herbalist. I'm not someone, I'm always being told by anyone I ever talk to who is much more into health, for instance, than me, as in fitness and mindfulness. Oh, Emma, do you actually ever breathe? You know, all these things. I'm not into all of that. But I just had it in my head that I wanted to do this with my husband, like we are able to we should be allowed to and I think that's the biggest injustice of of it for me and the thing that I actually have always got very upset about is that I cannot reproduce naturally um and it felt like a huge failure it just and I'm wrong to have viewed it like that and it was pig-headed of me and it was ill thought out and it also felt like a weakness and you know I I've I've learned a lot through this process and I think you know I think it is it is your body failing you know there's nothing wrong with saying that I mean the World Health Organization define um being reproductively challenged as a proper disability you know it's not a disability in the sense of um of the way that we know it but it it does mean my body cannot do something other women's bodies yeah can do without help yes and I didn't know for a while if at all and it feels very very distressing to say the least yeah and I suppose if you're somebody that because I know

you've been with your husband for a long time before you even started trying for a baby and for the fact that you hadn't actually had that conversation of going look I just I've always been dreading this and haven't actually voiced a lot of this out loud shows maybe there was just a lot of fear about and shame and awkwardness about how your body worked and the way it made you feel and one thing as well about IVF is it immediately opens it all up in front of a load of people you've never met before and you've got to suddenly be incredibly open and honest about all of it to sort of explain how your body might work I think my husband would probably laugh at the idea that I hadn't opened up to him about my body

because my goodness I do and I I will and I say it on television podcast and radio but um there was I think there was a man who got in touch with me once at five live who said are you going to talk about your periods every single day and I went no no just once a month there anyway um but but you're right about if you medicalize something a bit like with a child you know the minute you medicalize something it's proper it's real it's it's something you've got to think about and then there's a treatment path and then there's a lot of paperwork and it gets taken out of your hands and there's also you know I've spoken to some women since talking about my own experience who are some of the toughest hardest women a couple of them in, who have done some extraordinarily brave things.

And one of them said to me, I just couldn't hack the hormones. I could not hack the roulette with my emotions and my physicality. And I don't think women who go through fertility treatment talk enough about that, actually. And I've only realised that recently, where I met a woman recently who's written an HR policy for a company for those who are going through treatment because not only does a woman who goes through fertility treatment have to work during the pregnancy if she is as lucky and as blessed to get that yeah working through pregnancy it can be incredibly hard it can be absolutely fine I was great there you go it's the one time I've actually felt amazing because I didn't have a period for nine months I mean I had other things going on

but um going through fertility treatment and going on air for me every single day and also hosting the general election coverage on the radio for the BBC and doing all sorts of things at the same time it was so hard so hard so hard and I suppose as well it feels like you can't talk about it not just because generally people don't but because in a weird way you feel like you're almost going to jinx something if you start inviting the conversation people going how's it going and any joy and you don't you don't necessarily want to talk about any of it actually until I imagine no and I think I think I requested a mini fridge when we were on the election trail.

We went to Skegness to track down the then leader of UKIP. And I just said to the team... Sounds like a fun trip. It was, yeah. I was going to go to Skegness and UKIP. Exactly. I'd just come from...

It's like going back in time, but not that far. But I'd just come from interviewing Jeremy Corbyn at Woman's Hour, actually. An interview that caused lots of headlines. So that was going mad. And my phone was buzzing every few minutes. And I needed a mini fridge in Skegness.

And I couldn't get Paul Nuttall, the former leader, to talk to me. So it was a very weird afternoon. And my team happened to be male that day. And I was requesting this fridge. And I just thought, well, I can't tell them why. Because because exactly as you say I don't want anyone to know I'm doing this it probably won't work and it's really personal however I need a mini fridge so I said this is the irony because of what you said before I just went oh yeah I'm doing vaginal injections for endometriosis I'm on a trial and no one knows anything about it anyway and the minute I said

the word vagina and injection one of them looked incredibly pale and then the fridge was supplied. Just take the fridge. We've heard enough. Something along those lines. Maybe I've got some of the details wrong, but there we go. It's funny that you just reminded me when I was first in the public eye. So this would be back in like, I don't know, 2000. And a designer had offered to

make me a dress for something it was one of his dresses he was going to tailor it for me and it was a really sort of bodycon type thing something I would never wear and I didn't feel comfortable and I said to my mum oh he's tailored this dress and I just it's just not me and I don't know how to wear this kind of thing and she said phone him up and tell him thank you so much but you've got your period you don't feel comfortable wearing it at the moment he'll be so embarrassed till he won't bring it up again it really worked if anyone wants to get out of something quite yeah it's I think it's the only time though that I've used it or said it out loud as a sort of adult woman I think you're right you know I know that your book and your um diagnosis was probably a massive point to sort of adult work I think you're right you know I know that your book and your um diagnosis was

probably a massive point to sort of start unpicking the whole nature of periods or maybe I'm wrong actually was it something you always thought you might want to talk about in detail no it has it has sort of followed me around quite doggedly because I did this thing on the on Sky News where I said I was menstruating and I said it live on the news and we were talking we were doing a debate program and I just brought it up because we were debating menstrual leave but I was in loads of pain so I thought well I'm menstruating right now and Nick Ferrari the radio host who's also a good friend looked like he was going to vomit, Graham Lasseau the footballer who also a good friend and Rachel Johnson was there and June Sarpong all of them looked like they

were going to just you you know, combust. And I thought, well, it's not that odd, especially to the three women there. So after that, I used to get people coming up to me all the time saying, oh, I've had this happen. You know, lots of people are fine, and lots of people don't have a disease, and lots of people, but there are lots of people where it does affect them in some way, and not even negatively. They're just funny stories stories so I started writing them down and collating them and it was then it was actually when I got the diagnosis because I didn't know I had a

condition when I was doing that television program I thought okay there's something something's gone wrong here you know with me with this but there are amazing stories and and that's when it all started to percolate. And I actually had no desire to write a book. I stupidly wrote a book on maternity leave. I do not recommend that. Oh, that's when you did it on maternity leave. Terrible. I love talking to the people. I love doing the interviews like this. This was great, but writing them up. Maternity leave is, as it turns out, as you know, very well, is a very poorly described period of time. There is leave involved yeah um so I yeah don't recommend that bit but I I just felt I had to

write it and I remember at the time seeing a publisher who wanted to take a book from me and all he did was try and convince me to not write about what he called lady business he wouldn't say the word period during the meeting and write a proper book about current affairs, news and Brexit. And I said, well, no, that's not the book. Well, is it the first of its kind? I don't know any other books that have... There are books that have done the feminist theory around it. There are books that have done what I would call kind of the more new agey stuff there are books that really looked at like Maisie Hill's done period

power which is about trying to harness your cycle and and the pattern trying to explain hormones but I think it's the first one which put a lot of regular women's stories untold stories in one place quite funny very funny at times I have to say yeah uh the things they the things they told me but also some of the sadness but also uh put the religious thing together like how religions impacted the way we treat women who menstruate and their health and also kind of looking at the psychological elements of how it makes us feel yeah and the sort of ongoing stigma of it really and I think the fact that weirdly women sometimes seem to sort of sign this sign this pact of secrecy about it. I suppose because it's not really spoken about at school.

You never hear your teachers talk about it. I went to an all-girls school, and it wasn't something that was ever part of the subject for any of our lessons. It was sort of done through secrecy and a lot of mystique. And I didn't know if other people's experience was the same as mine. And, you know, reading about your description of endometriosis just made me think of people I thought, oh, golly, I wish I could wind back time and speak to that girlfriend of mine at school who was always having a horrible time and debilitating time with her periods. And just say to her, oh, my goodness goodness just make sure you get this checked out because I know that you can't cure it but you can treat it and give support I mean what yeah you can try and help you can try and help and and it might make you feel like you're not just sort of going just gotta you know hunker down

and get on with this and not really talk about it to people. And I think it's just not something we do converse about. I just help somebody get diagnosed in the sense of, I said, I think your symptoms are looking like that. Here is the person, here's how to do it. And she's so, although she's still in loads of pain, she's so thrilled that she's got a diagnosis. And I do think that knowledge is power, a bit like knowing about your fertility so you can make a choice is power.

You know, none of these things. I mean, there's so many things in school that would be really helpful, not least explaining, you know, how to file a tax return. Yes. However, periods are really should be really unremarkable because of how common they are. But equally, they're quite remarkable things. They start very young. We're the only mammal that sheds our lining every single month for no good reason. And they're quite dramatic things to invade your pants. And you can't talk about it that easily, or if you do, you don't know if you're normal. And think about all of that awkwardness.

And also loads of women that I've spoken to don't even know what a period is. They don't really know anything about it. Or when I tell them things about how sort of sexist attitudes have made certain things the way when they didn't need to be. For instance, the one that often blows people's minds is the fact that if you take a pill where you have been advised to have a break and have a bleed for seven days that was never necessary medically so yes the hormonal pill used to be

much stronger so people did welcome the break but the reason the break was introduced is because it largely was created in catholic america and catholic america the men wanted to still know their wives bleed it was a disguise doesn't benefit women so i had a break on the pill for 10 years i didn't need to have because i thought it was good for me and look at i mean look at the vaccines now the fear over the astrazeneca clots now we don't need to go into any of the detail but i i think it's a very fair point to say women have taken risks with their health far higher risks to take the contraceptive pill since the 60s and whenever the reason there is not a male pill and quite good for them good for the blokes is every time a man takes part in a trial

for for a pill that could work for a man he says oh I've got to tap out of this I've got a headache I feel awful. It's changing me. It's changing who I am. You know, they won't tolerate the things that women have tolerated. Now, don't get me wrong. The pill has been a hugely important

and liberating force for us because obviously we get pregnant. But what I am fascinated by is how much women accept is how it should be when it shouldn't have to be. Yeah. Because it's been created in an environment that's not designed by us yeah no that's incredibly true I mean that goes right through

you know to taxes on tampons and everything doesn't it just the whole way it's handled um the fact that you know you can go into a public bathroom and there's not even necessarily a space to put you know sanitary towels and stuff like that. It's just never been made to feel like it's as significant as it would be if everybody had it. It just doesn't feel like that, does it? No, I think your book... They'd be free, wouldn't they? Sorry, I was just going to say, also like loo roll's free. Yeah.

I think all of this would be free if men had it. Exactly. Imagine if the whole world did it. Then it just would, yeah, it would be such a different dynamic. And all that sort of, you're right, the fact that you're supposed to just sort of have these silent things of getting on with it. Even the monthly pain and everything. It's just, and the associations that you can be, it can be thrown back at you as a reason for being crabby or a reason for being inefficient or a reason for being inefficient or reason being flaky or emotional whatever it is it's actually horrific especially as it happens often right through your teenage years that's when you start so it's a time when you're feeling really vulnerable anyway

I think you just kind of find that you just sort of have to you feel like you've just got to get through it well also there is that guy in the book that I interviewed who tried having a period for buzzfeed and he got packed like a little like a little beet juice thing around his waist that would drip into his pants. And when I interviewed him, he's called Edgar, and he was literally like, oh, my God, the admin of having to change my pad. I kept leaking and then it leaked on my jeans. And oh, my God, like all this stuff. And I didn't even have the hormones. And I was literally like, like yeah the admin of it you know like my friend who got her tampon stuck who I was meeting for

work you know and she's just ringing me and I'm going bear down while I'm in the cab you know these things are like and we hide them up our sleeve we do the tampon smuggle on the way to the loo like and Gloria Steinem in 1978 she was like if men had periods it would be like I'm a three-pad kind of guy you know there'd be like bragging rights um it would be a day off or it would be something it would be a celebration it would be competitive it would be out there yeah yeah so I know professionally around the time you're having a baby you were still doing or you're broadcasting but you've spoken quite openly about how you felt that period of time when you were trying to have a baby. And two and a half years, I think, is a fairly significant amount of time.

And you just said you felt like it brought out all the worst of you. And I wondered if that's something that you feel comes quite a sort of does it carry over into new motherhood as well if you've had experienced that for so long I think it's a really good question I think that um when you've struggled it is a real darkness and it's not a darkness I enjoy and I don't want to be jealous of people who are pregnant and I don't want to I like I like to be happy for people I like to be um in the world without bitterness and sadness and darkness and trying to remember to live with like keep on living is really key but it's very hard because your period is like an email in your pants every month of failure and I think what happens when

you struggle to have a baby I personally didn't believe that the baby that our little boy would come I think until around seven months not because I thought I was going to lose it necessarily I wasn't actually thinking in those terms although I can totally understand that for others who've had losses that they would think like that I just could never get pregnant so when our son did arrive I just didn't have like other women maybe that feeling of what will it be like and even if that's inaccurate I didn't allow myself to fantasize about it at all um I wouldn't buy anything I know that that's not uncommon because people are superstitious but I just I just couldn't engage with that. And I think then when I wasn't loving new motherhood, because most people don't in many ways, you know, even if they love the baby, they don't love their life, their new existence that they're trying to get hold of.

There was additional guilt, I would say. So rather than the darkness, because it takes time for darkness to lift and for you to feel better I think my health feeling good during my pregnancy really helped though and I was celebratory I don't want to say that I wasn't but there was this beautiful thing growing in me at that point you know I didn't know anything about him and but I did think I felt additional guilt perhaps that I didn't love it immediately or as much as I should um I couldn't get used to it because I had fought so hard for it is that something they spoke to you about during your pregnancy as a possibility no nobody you can't be yeah it has to be quite a common cycle I don't think there's I don't think there's a thing between like you know the IVF doctors are there to get you pregnant and then your midwife if you're lucky enough to see the same one I

actually was I think because of IVF is there to sort of tell you if it's all going okay I think there's probably a missing a missing bit but I did seek out writers to explain what I now know is called matricence do you know that word no I don't what's that I only learned it recently matricence is the process of becoming a mother so like adolescence right it's a phrase that's been coined obviously you can have patricence as well for for men um but it's the idea that you are growing into the role rather than you are a mother born at that moment yeah so the kind of stresses and strains of that so I did my own reading about why was I loving my baby but feeling like a stranger in my own life yeah that's interesting so I suppose is that something that would go in tandem with a sort

of maternal leaning or is that the word you might use if someone didn't feel that that came naturally no I think it's about so rather than maternal ambivalence which people talk about now which is a huge taboo and I think is fascinating and we should talk about um I it's actually more about just simply not knowing how to be anymore this is more about the adjustment of your identity and the mourning of what you had before and I think because I can't remember how old you were how old were you I was 25 when I had my first and I definitely that's quite I was I felt like I'd been turned up so I didn't know who I was I couldn't I took ages to find me again I think did it okay yeah no I didn't feel depressed or

anything I just felt no but I think we there are things Okay. Yeah. I didn't feel depressed or anything. I just felt. No, but I think we, there are things in between. I felt kind of invisible actually. It was like all my edges had been knocked off, like a sort of homogenized process. I was just my, my baby's mother,

the carer, that kind of thing. And I didn't, I just felt like I'd lost all my character and personality, I guess, for a little while. But I, I think the benefit perhaps,

as well as having a younger body 25 is um but that's very young in the national average compared to I think the national average is now 30 and it's higher in in cities maybe 32 in cities I was 32 um the the the benefit of that is that you've had less time although you know you've had a very different life in many ways because of going to the public eye and your creativity and your singing and writing but that you had less time perhaps to enjoy your independence so by the time you get into your 30s and lots of women are now doing it later for various reasons I think there's even more grief sometimes because you've had all of that freedom for the first

bit of you know your 15 years of being an adult or whatever so I think that's getting worse for people that they're sort of like we're more selfish basically to put it bluntly you know we are used to being our own masters yes although I suppose the flip of it is that my mum who had me at 23 used to say to oh, it's good you're being a young mum because you'll be more selfish because sometimes when people have their babies a bit later, they might feel more inclined to sort of go, right, stop everything, I'm now doing this bit. Whereas for me, I was like, maybe she was just trying to encourage me

to feel confident about it, but that was the sort of way she said it to me. No, that's a really, I love that. I think that's, I love that, she's very wise. She's a good bit of advice. Yeah she's definitely good for lots of advice actually. I mean the most pivotal bit of advice was right at the very beginning when I first realised I was pregnant because my husband and I we'd only been dating for a very short amount of time when we found out we had a baby, And we'd only been dating for a very short amount of time when we found out we had a baby, just about six weeks. And so I phoned her up and she said,

it might not be the right time, it might not be the right man, but it's the right baby. And actually for Richard and I, we both kind of clung on to that. It's like, it's the right baby, we'll put our focus on that. So yeah, she's very good for advice, my mum, yes. Oh, wow. That's so powerful. Also, like, only six weeks my goodness yes some people say did you plan that like you must be crediting me with some level of crazy

that I hope I don't get to really um or I suppose some people might just be like we just knew no we didn't really um but you know I'm sorry but you know I just want to say that I've been super cool throughout this whole chat like it's completely normal to be interviewed by Sophia Spexter but I do remember buying your CD uh in Manchester and then going home and dancing religiously to it and knowing all of the words of your album so I've tried to be cool until this point but I just want to point that out please don't be cool no you know what this is the first time anyone any of my interviews ever said thank you I'm just going to start everything with that like I remember the album no but I remember I remember the cover with the white and your lips and like everything about it and I I loved how clear your English accent was on your

music that's a really weird thing to say perhaps but I think having listened to Oasis and Blur back to back for like four years at that point I was so ready to kind of a hear a woman's voice and be here with you know beautiful diction and I honestly I just I've drove people mad with that it's still on one of my favorite playlists oh that's nice thank you well at least some of my later work has interested you too yeah no but it will and it does and you and your kitchen disco I have been doing a lot of kitchen discoing but I I just couldn't not say it Sophie I'm sorry no thank you Emma that's lovely I'm blushing over here um well what do I want to talk to you about now you've thrown me

well when you said dancing religiously I thought oh yes I did want to talk to you about now? You've thrown me. Well, when you said dancing religiously, I thought, oh, yes, I did want to ask about religion, because were you raised in quite a religious household? No. I think this is quite badly reported. I can blame your Wikipedia, probably. Yeah, I know. Oh, my God, my Wikipedia is...

My Wikipedia is nonsense as well. Yeah, I don't look at that. I really want people to understand that most of those things are not accurate to people's lives. They're not where I go to look up people's things if I'm going to. And there's an amazing woman actually I met recently who's helping women with their Wikipedia if they do want that help. Because she's done the whole getting women scientists to have profiles. Ah, that's a good thing.

And putting women back into the digital history but she also helps women who are dealing with really bad edits to their Wikipedia that are not true and can be malicious so you need her number well the other person I can probably ask is my dad who I think self edited his Wikipedia page to make him younger than he is I might have to go a lot closer

to him the minute we go down that rabbit yeah the minute we go down that rabbit hole although interestingly um I think yeah with the wikipedia thing a few years ago and my religion um somebody edited it to make it the second thing about me which I do not think is normal and it's certainly not the defining characteristic of me or my life and it was disproportionate and I that was at the height of me getting a load of anti-semitic abuse so I right oh yes these things might be linked that was yeah exactly so anyway sorry convoluted way of saying when somebody says they've been brought up in an orthodox Jewish household it can mean that they're incredibly religious or like me

it can mean it's where your family have paid their subscription to the synagogue. It was just the denomination that we ascribed to. Yes, we observed things and I still do Friday night dinner and I love the family and the cultural aspect and I'm very engaged with that and I love those touchstones. But no, I was not very religious. Well, I suppose that's, yeah, you've sort of summed up really why I was interested,

because it is something that has got so much family and culture, and you say touchstones, and I wondered how much of those you'd put into your mothering, but I can, have you already just told me? No, no, do you know what? I think if you're born into a religion and it's a culture that you really like, and a lot of it I do really like and the bits i know as well you know i just need to educate myself you do feel or i feel certainly that you have a duty to your child to get to gen up again you know to get better do it right and show them things um and

for any jewish parents listening there is a thing called pj books which is an amazing charity that sends out each festival of the year a children's book book linked to it that tells a story so that's also been educating me um and i think i would really like to offer our son as many windows into that world also just for community and friendship uh that he can have and then he can when he's older obviously make some choices yeah well I suppose that that leads me into thinking do you did you have any idea of what kind of mother you did want to be do you think I I thought that some of what I thought obviously I knew nothing Sophie um some of what I thought has come true which is I do I used to do a column called tough love and and what I mean by tough love in terms of parenting is you know I have been the mother the person I don't mind I sleep trained him okay you know enjoying

my maternity leave way back before pandemic times when your partner goes back to work after two minutes I did a lot of that on my own in the day and and it you know my mum walked out she couldn't handle it my mother-in-law walked out she couldn't handle it leaving the baby to scream so I'm quite I've got a toughness if I think it's good for the baby I've learned that um but I am also a complete bag of nerves if anything for him is wrong you know and I didn't know how sensitive or how awful that would be I didn't know how my tummy would hurt if he was crying for a reason other than me trying to teach him to sleep um and I I also didn't know how impatient I was I knew it was bad but now I've had to learn like the yogic breathing that I've always been told would be good for me uh I do so I don't lose

my shit um when I want to lose my shit a lot more than is feasible and also I've learned lose that's it I've also learned losing your shit does nothing yeah yeah very true but yeah you have to suddenly yeah lots of deep breathing counting to 10 just yeah yeah I've had to walk away quite often um yeah I for me I feel like it's that I've had to learn patience that I didn't think I was capable of which is really annoying because I was quite happy being impatient but you know like that's why don't they say that's why women are often amazing workers as well because we cut to it you know when we're at work we're like we've got to get it done in the amount of time that we've got to do it I can't waft around on this and also it's a joy to be able to do it without anything

dragging you you know I literally have had to learn because my brain with the type of work that I do and you know other people will have it without this work but because of the work I do whether it's you know you're about to interview whoever on telly or news night or whether it's women's hour or whether it's I don't know what writing a column in very quick order I am very used to processing a lot of information that's sometimes very complicated synthesizing it and coming up with a way of making it accessible and my brain is like and I've literally had to learn how to just slow everything down to a whole other pace that's quite hard and that is a whole new thing as well yeah and were you ever worried about your ability to still do all those things after after having a

child because sometimes you can be quite fearful of this new version of yourself you don't quite know what form that'll take totally and I think I'm still figuring that out I'm only three years in I'm a baby when it comes to the experience of having a baby um and I hate not seeing my son in the morning before our son in the morning before I go to work uh if he's not up I mean it's great if he's not up because it means he is sleeping longer, which is good for his dad who does the mornings. But I still hate that, that I go out too early to see him. But I do the afternoons. I always try and do school. But in terms of your journalistic mind, did you worry about that sort of ability to keep

up with everything? So I've got a great example, and which will always make me remember it yes I I was thinking will I be the same so it wasn't necessarily will I be as sharp although that's obviously part of a concern but it was more like will my personality still be the same when I go back out there which I think you're driving at um and things things obviously do change that I think it was day three or day four of going back on air when I was at Five Live, that was the job I returned to after maternity leave.

I had a minister on, Rory Stewart, who briefly ran to be the leader of the Conservative Party, the Prime Minister, and he was the International Development Secretary at the time. Anyway, the Brexit deal, the one that everyone had been waiting for, the withdrawal act, had literally just been published, and he said 84%, I think he said said or something like that of the british public

supports it but sophie had only been published like two minutes earlier so i just so i was on air and i just said well how how can we know that the majority of the british public support this yeah it's just happened and he went oh i was just just providing a figure to supply a figure to furnish my view here, you know, to support it. I said, you mean you just made it up? And basically, the minister just lied, you know. And he's completely admitted this. He's apologized for this since.

He apologized very quickly. He's actually talked about this interview being a really formative moment for him as a politician. And because he was so desperate to make his point. And it's not, I'm not telling this out of malice to him. The interview then went completely viral. And I was only back in the job a couple of days or whatever. It went on to the late night American programs,

like fake news is spread to Britain, you know, and it was, you know, obviously for some people, very humorous, not necessarily for him. And I thought,

okay, I can still hear something at the time it is happening and it was like the best gift I could have had three days afterwards because I was still all there yeah yeah and also it felt good because you were totally in that moment as well and because I think you worry a lot about being distracted and having that sort of parallel like what's happening to my son right now? Where will he be? What will you be able to do? Or what time is it?

Is it nearly his lunchtime? And actually just being able to be totally focused where you are. Yeah, I so agree with you. The feeling of focus. And I think you can have a guilt after that, being completely honest. I haven't thought about my child for three hours

while I've been on air. Yeah. But I I think that I don't know if this is a podcast where people should share advice or tips can we do that yeah absolutely I feel like I feel like people do I mean that's not it's not like specifically for that but I think no it's like whatever comes out of the bag really we've all had so many different experiences well I I think this is a very obvious thing in some ways to say but it occurred to me later in case it is of use to anyone listening is and as I say I'm no expert but I did set up we both did but I led it because I was on maternity leave child care that really felt very secure like very good for the times that we had it it's quite a patchwork as many people's are and I think that led me to be okay to be in work fully yeah with my mind not everybody can have

that then things happen and obviously things go wrong all the time but I hadn't realized how important that particular thing to get sorted was so that I could go and do exactly as you just said no I actually think that's a really valid thing. And to be honest, we haven't spoken tons about childcare, I suppose because it can be quite polarising because not everybody can afford all the same options. And, you know, it's very easy when people have different lives to be quite knee-jerk about, well, it's OK for them.

They've probably got nannies. They probably never see their kids. And the whole thing for me was about speaking to lots of different women to show that actually there's a lot of things that we all experience and all feel i've got nothing to do with those things it's you know take that bit away for a bit and let's let's look at the sort of humans behind all that but the fact of the matter is if you are going to have childcare in whatever form it is, whether it be your, your mum, your sister, a childminder, a daycare nursery, a nanny, when you've got the right place, the right person, it does give you that freedom. And actually it's not something that's really been spoken about that much. I think because it's sort of seen as just a box that needs to be ticked in terms of just

making sure someone's responsible for your kid when you're not. But actually it goes a lot deeper than that. And I mean, one, we had the same nanny from when my eldest was four months all the way till he was 11, Nanny Claire. And she was like family. And it was really, I always loved that. I love the fact that if one of them, even now with our nanny, if one of my kids falls over and hurts himself, they're happy to be comforted by her.

And I feel like, great, that means I've made the right decision. And you do need to be able to just pass that battle so you can go off and do your thing that's that is completely okay when our son was really little and I thought you know it's so competitive to get them in and who you can get and because I work quite funny hours I was looking for something quite specific because I really put a lot of pressure on myself to do every afternoon you know and and not um because I miss out on the mornings I've sort of done that deliberately and I really want you know that's not a complaint um and I just always make sure I hit things that means I have to do other things in in different ways but I remember going

to see a childminder and I was so upset afterwards she was amazing what she was doing was incredible the kids looked so happy but I wasn't ready to see it yeah so I do think it's the most important job you do for yourself as someone who wants to go back to work or has to go back to work yeah be more explicit about that uh that you you set that up so you don't think you don't have to think about it yeah it's been I was listening to you talk I think it's actually in that same podcast, where you were saying about how you don't post pictures of your baby online, of your child online, because you can remember how that made you feel when you were trying to have a baby and how you find it confusing when people who've had fertility issues then go on to post loads and loads of pictures

because you think you knew, you remember how upsetting you found that before you had a baby so now being being sort of going into that camp it's a different thing but I wondered if sometimes if having becoming a mother the journey to parenthood has been tricky if there's if you almost feel like there's a version of you out there that didn't have the baby you're almost sort of still protecting that side of you because you must spend so much time just trying to come to terms with the fact that that might be where you're headed that when you sort of do end up becoming a mum you think I still need to look out for that version of me that person out there that didn't that didn't have that the lucky you know the IVF didn't work because otherwise I I will always have part of I will always have one foot in the camp of the

women who can't have children even if I'm not allowed to anymore really because I did and that's when I spoke to Elizabeth on her podcast she still doesn't have a child and she really would like one and she's very honest about that and so it is the most delicate conversation in the world to even dare to say that I could represent those people in any tiny way but I have walked in their shoes and I left their particular path and joined a different path the path that they so desperately want um but I'll never leave them not really because of how it was I don't post photos of of my family life online for two reasons one is privacy they didn't sign up to this they haven't consented I'm not judging anyone who does you can do exactly what you want but I also yeah I I know this is divisive but I'm not gonna not say it

because of that I'm I've I've got to be able to say that I have found it I'll be really specific I found it really surprising that certain people who have struggled do it so much but then equally I'm not surprised by it because it's a huge it shouldn't be this word but it is a huge thing I was going to say achievement but it's a it's not an achievement because it just happens or it doesn't and a lot of the time it's nothing you do. There is a miracle bit of getting pregnant that the doctors don't even understand. Hence why the odds of IVF are not that good. You know, they really aren't.

Yeah, you're right. It's as simple as, yeah. Yeah, it's quite important to stress that. Yeah, that's very true. Exactly. But I also understand why people do. And actually after that podcast, a lot of people in the IVF community on Instagram got together, a lot of them who also do have kids now and really

didn't like what I said. And they weren't, you know, attacking me per se. I'm all about debate. That's, that's what I live for. And they're completely right to have those conversations. And I'm happy to spark that conversation. And what I saw in some of their posts, I left them to have the conversation. I wasn't involved, was, you know, this is their life. This is what they've... And obviously I am censoring my life because my entire photo reel on my phone is my family.

And I'll have like one photo occasionally. I'll be like, oh yeah, I can put that on Instagram. And I look like a right old Billy No Mates on Instagram because it's basically just me in different places you know I I do feel like I would be betraying that other bit of me to do that for me yeah no I think well I mean all these things are really personal aren't they but I do I do think that that makes a lot of sense. And I think ultimately, when you post anything, well, for me anyway, and it sounds like it's similar for you, you're sort of picturing the other end, a version of yourself, really,

sort of going, what do I think of that? Because you've only really got your own standards to be as objective as that really in terms of setting up your store, what makes you cringe, what makes you think, yeah, I think this one's okay. So I think if you knew that that was something that was upsetting then, then to suddenly cross over into that wouldn't make sense for you. It wouldn't feel right. Yeah. I mean, listen, most people post photos of their children. I don't mainly because of

privacy, but I think especially when he was born, I just felt I couldn't cross over and I think that you know that was a driving factor then it's definitely more changed I suppose into the privacy element um but I I think that I think the particular reason I said that and and continue to say that is as I say my surprise at some people who know exactly how difficult that is posting and often I've seen them do disclaimers like I know I've been through this but I really want to show you this or whatever and I get that but I still think I still think that's hard yeah and while you were during the time when you were trying to have a baby and having your endometriosis diagnosis that's also the time when you started the tough love column,

I think, your advice column. Was it quite a good time to also be sort of thinking about what other problems other people are having? Was it quite a good way of sort of distracting outward from what you were dealing with yourself? Yes, I think maybe. But also in another life, I feel like I would be an agent or a fixer or something. I love helping people plot their way out of things.

Oh, you've got a very good skill for parenthood, by the way. Problem solving comes in handy a lot. I hope so. Yeah, I can give you some of my biggest, like, okay, how do I get out of this one? Actually, my favorite. Sorry, just when I think of it. It was my second son. He was probably about four. how do I get out of this one? Actually, my favourite. Sorry, just when I think of it. No, go on. It was my second son.

He was probably about four. We had a day out together, just the two of us. We went to a fun fair. Do you know those brown balls that you can climb in and they float in water? Have you seen those? He'd got in one of them, and I thought, I could see him inside there.

He seemed to be starting to take his clothes off, and I thought, oh, he's maybe a bit hot. Maybe he's just very hot in there. And by the time the ball had finished his seven minutes, where there was a lot of time, I realised, no, he'd wet himself inside this floating orb in full view of a sort of queue of waiting parents and impatient kids. And I had to really quickly sort of whip him out of there

take my cardi put it around his waist like a little makeshift skirt and just he just walked up and didn't have a good glance um I don't know if that was really a problem solving moment more just like make a very sharp exit from a public space but um my friend my friend had to catch her little boy's poo once in a bakery bag as they were walking along the street like parents have to come up with some really quick solutions to yeah things and you don't know how often you're going to be dealing with poo and wee as well I just didn't foresee that being quite such a permanent fixture in my life huge Oh, you've had to deal with a lot. Well done you. Well, I'm nearly ready to let you go.

But as a final thing, I saw when I was reading bits and bobs before speaking to you, a story I wanted to know more about, which sounded like, you said I think it was your most embarrassing thing where you saw one of your husband's colleagues at a function and you managed to put your hand in her mouth.

But I wanted to know. I didn't. I sort of want more detail to that, really. Sophie, I just honestly, this day couldn't get any better. I'm talking to Sophie, I respect her. And you've asked me about one of my favourite stories. And also because I mentioned it in a really short thing in The Guardian. So many people have messaged me about it and I've I I mentioned it in a really short thing in the guardian yeah so many

people have messaged me about it and I've never actually said it well good let's have this you know this is your exclusive this is your scoop I'm ready for it I already know the punchline I'm still ready for it I I still can't deal with how embarrassing it is and the best thing is she does not remember it because she was so drunk oh that's good that's good yeah and I'm going I'm going mad you know now you didn't buy my album because there isn't one but uh anyway I won an award really like when I was in my early 20s for for journalism and I was so excited and I didn't think I would win it and it was to do with my old uh old job and and and you know it was a big glitzy event blah blah blah and I didn't think I would win it and it was to do with my old uh old job and and and you know it's big glitzy event blah blah blah and I go up on stage and I get the award and I can't

quite believe it's happened and I come down on stage and I'm still on the podium bit coming down and she comes towards me she's so wonderful she's like American she's full of life and she's like oh Emma you know congratulations and I'm like okay Katie and I go towards her to hug her and she's opened her mouth as wide as possible because she's so excited for me and I go to hug her and she moves and the angle this very unique angle means that my hand as I go to like give her a hug around like her neck a bit slash shoulders just go straight in her mouth um on a diagonal but like just the fingers not the thumb key detail and I and and it's straight in and straight out and it literally looked like

from behind it was to look like I punched her but yeah I remember the feeling of her teeth grazing the top of my fingers and she looked so shocked and she just carried on in for the hug and I was like and she actually was my husband's boss at the time as well so yeah it was you know I came home that night I stayed out really late I had a lot to drink myself and I'm but I do remember coming home that night he was then my boyfriend and I said to him I put my whole hand in your boss's mouth who happened to be at the event and he was like what what did that work did did that explain Definitely. You know what it was that I didn't understand before was the angle. So now I know the angle.

But also I just love it when weird things happen like that. And no one says anything and it just kind of continues. Yeah, we just didn't talk about it. It's just too weird. It's not the same, but I remember one of my mum's friends had been around for dinner and as she was leaving I thought she was going to kiss my cheek but I just missed the angle of her cheek and we kissed each other on the lips and it was just mortifying it just it was so embarrassing like I just was like is that something people do like is that everything is that a thing I couldn't

really remember if that was sometimes an option for saying hello or goodbye to like one of your mum's friends I don't think it is really oh that's brilliant no that that falls into the same category we can't revisit that but we shall think about it more than we need to for the rest of time oh thank you so much Emma it's been so lovely to talk to you and thank you for all your time and your wisdom and I wish you all the best with the book I have it by my bedside and I've been reading it's brilliant and it's made me think a lot and I feel like I have maybe been you know I'm accidentally complicit really in this sort of keeping periods as a thing that isn't really

talked about and I'm determined to change that now I don't think I've spoken about it publicly since since that time of telling the designer so I'm I'm gonna go forth and make sure it becomes part of their dialogue and as the mother of five sons they're all very familiar with periods I'm just I'm like I have to be their sole example of of living with a woman at the moment so I'm like guys just get with it they have to understand how that works I don't want them to be squeamish or awkward. It's just, there's no time for that. No, no, I'm sure they won't be with all the beautiful influence that you'll have.

But thank you. I mean, the pleasure was all mine. I'm so sorry we weren't in person. Don't worry, next time. I would love to meet and have a kitchen disco with you. Yeah, that'd be really fun. I wish I still had my CD rack with with your face on it you can have my real face we'll do it in person okay great day made and I promise not to put my hand in your mouth

I promise not to kiss you on the lips okay deal thank you so much see wasn't she lovely i don't know why i guess you know what i've had a few um guests for the podcast now where beforehand i've thought oh i can't trip up or make any mistakes because they'll i'll have my guts for garters and they're always actually completely lovely and then i feel a bit silly but maybe that's just just par for the course. Actually, talking of which, next week's guest, I was a little bit, I think whenever I speak to as well, entrepreneurs, business people,

I feel like they're kind of just slightly more grown up than me. And next week's guest is an entrepreneur called Sarah Willingham, who we had a brilliant chat. She was another completely lovely woman. And she did a really cool thing of taking her four kids

and her and her husband took her four kids traveling around the world for three years can't wait for you to hear that but for now thank you so much to emma for this week's chat i um i love speaking to her and i it's funny because i already have actually contacted a couple of people um about people i think maybe who were struggling with endometriosis and maybe don't realise it one of which is only a teenage girl but I think she she talks so well about the sort of hidden pain of it really and I think so much of us probably just think that's just what periods are like and actually they're not are they they're not supposed to be something where it's so painful you can't walk or you can't you know gritting your teeth to to meet people and that kind of thing um and it was also so brilliant of emma to speak about ivf and i'm sure there are

many many parents who can completely relate to that kind of one for any of the camp the the camp of people who who didn't end up having a baby or are struggling to have a baby and still don't have one and the camp of people who manage to become parents i imagine that once you've spent a couple of years in that first camp, it's a place that you never really feel like you've completely, you know, you're still thinking of those people, aren't you? Anyway, I always end up rambling. I'm sorry. It's just because you're here and I'm here

and it's a nice thing to do, to be honest. There's probably other things I could tell you about, but some of it's so boring. You know, like I've got to fix. Mickey's worked out that if he shimmies, he's still in a kind of baby cot type thing, even though he's two and a half now. I normally move my kids into a big bed by the time they're three. So he's kind of on the last bit of having a cot bed. He's worked out if he gives it a really good shake, he can make one of the wheels fall off, thus making a side of the cot lower down,

thus making it that bit easier to climb out got fixed that today i've already fixed as well uh that handle downstairs that fallen off richard's fixed a kitchen door cupboard that fell off and there's two sets of coat hooks that have fallen down it's just uh just the fun kind of uh sunday sunday vibes but later on we have got a nice chicken that we can have for a roast dinner. So don't worry. We will reward ourselves with food for all this hard labour.

Anyway, I hope wherever you are, you've been having a lovely week. And it's good to be with you again. And see you next week for the chat with Sarah. And do please continue to leave your comments about who else I should speak to. Yeah, I think that's it for now. I mean, obviously go on but I think you probably realize that all right lots of love see you next week goodbye Thank you.