Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 35: Sarah Willingham

Episode Date: July 5, 2021

Business woman and former Dragon's Den dragon Sarah Willingham surprised everyone some years back, by taking her 4 children out of school and setting off for a round the world adventure. She and her husband rented their house out, put all their possessions into storage and were only allowed 23 kilos of luggage each, which she found hugely liberating. Now back in the UK with the children back in school, she is a fan of talking to her children about everything, including money, as she wants them to grow up earning and knowing the value of money, just as she has done since her childhood in Stoke-on-Trent. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello lovely people, how are you this week? I hope all is well with you. I speak to you from my bedroom any minute now. The kids are going to be coming home from school and it's just me and my cat Rizzo for a minute. And Rizzo's looking all serene, even though I'm pretty sure it was her out of my three cats that pooed on the upstairs bed today. Rezo, why did you do it?

Why did you poo on the bed? She's avoiding eye contact. I've made it awkward. She didn't know I was going to talk about her in your presence. Now she doesn't want to discuss it. Anyway, enough of all that. What am I talking to you about? I'm talking to you about this week's podcast, you ninny. So this week's guest, oh, what a lovely woman. So I spoke to Sarah Willingham. So

I met Sarah because I was introduced to her through, um, my friend, Deborah Meaden, who did, went to the same dance school as me she and I both did strictly back in 2013 I absolutely adored Deborah she was such a lovely woman and became a friend which is great and recently I started working with a gin company called Pink Marmalade that was during lockdown we together have done a bottle together so I thought I thought I better ask for business advice from my Dragon's Den friend so I spoke to Deborah and she said oh if it's gin you want to meet my friend Sarah Willingham because Sarah Willingham has invested in this hugely successful craft gin club so through that I started speaking to Sarah and then she started

we had a phone call together to talk about the gin and ended up talking about loads of other stuff and i just thought she was absolutely brilliant we had this phone call where i sort of put the phone down feeling really energized and excited and i thought oh my goodness i must have a conversation with this woman and share it with you so my producer claire and i traveled to Brighton to go and speak to Sarah about a month and a half ago now. And Sarah has got four children who are now aged between 10 and 15. And she lives in this beautiful house that's right on the coast of Brighton, the south coast. So when you walk into her home home it's this spectacular glass wall

that is in front of you opposite the front door and all you can see is the sea and it's absolutely jaw-dropping in fact it's so striking that Claire who I've known since I was about 16 sort of spontaneously found herself getting quite emotional which is quite a funny way to walk into somebody's house. But it's because it was so extraordinarily powerful, just being greeted by what almost looked like a wall of the sea and nothing else. You couldn't even really see the stones going down to the water until you got close up to the window. And I think there's just something so dramatic and um poignant about being faced with nature in that sort of way it's very handsome it was beautiful but it was also very handsome it had this real strength to it anyway so that was the backdrop to our conversation

and I absolutely loved Sarah she took her four children with her husband on a trip around the world they went traveling what was supposed to be a one-year trip ended up being away for three and I just loved everything about the spirit of it to be honest with you it's a bit of a fantasy of mine that idea a proper big lot of travel with your children it'd be very tricky for me to actually actually make it happen but I loved hearing about. And it sounded like it was every bit as enriching and exciting as you think. And, you know, Sarah said that she's not one for planning. But of course, if you're someone that can also be an entrepreneur and build businesses, I think chances are you're probably very good at planning. But maybe it's quite nice

to be able to put yourself in a different gear and just give yourself over to not making plans so anyway waffle i do i know that oh there's a doorbell i bet you i'm gonna leave you with the chat so on the other side i love you very much Well, I kind of want to jump straight in a little bit because I know you're a mother of four and I know that you've spoken a lot about how you believe business and parenthood should not be things where there's compromise involved. But how on earth do you manage to do that

when you're a businesswoman mother of four and not feel like you have been compromising things I suppose it's a good good place to start yeah I mean I think look I think in in the grand scheme of things everything really is a compromise in everything you know nothing is ever perfect perfect but what I don't believe you have to compromise is your own sense of being. So your own balance. And I think that's the bit that I really struggled with when I first became a mum.

But I guess as I've got older, I've got so much better at listening to myself. So I'm one of those mums that needed to be a mum I just I just need to be a mum I love being a mum so you always wanted to be a mum always want to be a mum I'm really maternal even the way I run my business is a maternal like I am just a maternal person and it was really important to me to not compromise that role of being a mum or that it wasn't even a role it was just how it made me feel in my tummy yeah um yeah yeah so because it was so important to me to be a mum what I

learned quite quickly is that the moment you try and mix the two is the moment you fail so I was trying to run a big business with hundreds of staff and have children and be a mom and I didn't just want to be this caretaker of the children kind of delegate it because I was like well that's what I work for you know I should be able to delegate some of the tasks with work not some of the tasks in my family and I found that trying to find that balance really really difficult but I did find it and the the way that I found it is by not compromising what was important to me at that moment so if um let's say for example one of your kids phones up and they're they're not well that day from school what would actually tear me apart is if I can't be there on

that day if I've set my life up that and obviously sometimes it happens but I'm talking like big picture if this always happened you know that actually I'm never there I'm never able to go and collect them from school when they don't feel well or hold them when they're poorly that was a really important part of being a mum to me and so I very quickly changed the way that I worked and kind of changed my work life to fit in with me being a mum and in fact to be honest with you I've never been so I'm going to say successful I kind of hate the word successful because I think everybody define we define this in the grand scheme of the word successful but actually success is something that's really really personal yeah so I my success is my ability to combine lots of things that I love you know I think I'm a great friend I'm a great mom you know I enjoy what I do with work. I'm still able to do that. I'm still able to succeed in inverted commas. And it was when I was able to keep the things that were most important to me,

my family, at the heart of my priority, or the heart of everything that I did, I kept them as my priority, that actually everything else always had to fall into place so I would always say right you know what what really drives me and I came down to it in the end which was freedom and it was freedom to control my time freedom to make my own choices it was freedom that was this that was the thing that I realised motivated me more than anything. And that helped me so much every time something came in my path or it might be an opportunity, because I'm one of those people that sees opportunity in everything.

I'm like an overexcited puppy at everything in life. I think it's all brilliant. That's a good way to learn. And I would look at things and think, oh, yes, that's so exciting. And every time I would stop myself and say, is this adding or is it taking away from my freedom? Or is it neutral? And if it was taking away from my freedom, I wouldn't do it. And that became such a driver and so easy for me to make decisions that I think that was the point at which I felt I'm no longer compromising and of course I what I am you are compromising because there are some things in

that that as an excited puppy I would quite like to have done yeah but it took away too much than it took away more than it gave so I didn't do it yeah and I think that's really when I use the word compromise where I come back down to is well if you stay true to what really drives you and what really matters then it doesn't feel like a compromise well what I'm getting there in spades is a real sense of self-awareness because if you can prioritize freedom which I think is a brilliant word to sum up as you say the things that give you a better quality of life and actually allow you to thrive and be productive it also means that you know you're someone that is quite good at being self-motivated because for a lot of people freedom is a scary idea in terms of

that sort of work like home life balance but if they don't know how they'll remain engaged in all the things that make them excited but if you're someone that can feel like you're like as you say like that puppy dog thing I totally understand that feeling of just that fizz you get when you think that's a project I want to get involved in and can see that that sort of self-awareness of of knowing you're going to get on with that no matter what and it's just a matter of shaping the rest of your day around giving you that space but Completely. And I think it's one of the things that's so important that, you know, people listen to, you might read self-help books or self-motivation books, you might listen to podcasts or you talk to different people.

And we're always going to take away the bit that matters to us or that, you know, inspires us individually. And I think self-awareness is probably one of the most important things to us or that you know inspires us individually and I think self-awareness is probably one of the most important things in in all of that because you know I can I can look at somebody else's life and go god that's amazing I mean you know wow wow wow wow wow wow but actually I'm built different than them and I couldn't live that life because it would, you know, go against who I am naturally. And I think the self-awareness, especially, you know, when we're trying to juggle so much, is a really, really important place for us all to start. Now, you know, some of my closest friends, they are very, very driven by routine, by security. These are not

something that drive me. You know, in fact, if I have two days at the same, I completely implode panic and start to try and cause chaos. You know, it's just who I am. So if you put me into a box and make me, and put me into, a routine or try and try and let me have a routine i will do everything in my power naturally this is a natural thing it doesn't come from my head to fight it yeah other people need structure and need a routine so i think it's a really important starting place to come like how on earth do I do it all you have to start from well who are you naturally like and I you know I think one of the things I have said time and time and time again and I believe this in every aspect of my life and that is that you can't fight nature

nature is always going to win whether we're talking about the elements outside or whether we're talking about us as human beings nature will always always take take home the big prize at the day of the day because you can't go against that force no matter how much you try to go against it you can't and that's you know when I sit and talk to large businesses and they they're trying to encourage more women back into business for example one of the things I always say is you know if if a woman wants to be a mom you have to let her be a mom if you try and fight that you will lose 100 you will lose there of course are lots of women i've got friends that have had kids that actually find it much much better for them to delegate that monday to friday it works really well for them they go to work they separate the two and then they have

an amazing weekend with their kids and that's great because that really suits them so I think it is about finding that structure that works for individual people and who are you in your core what matters to you and go with that I mean if you're always going with the tide you will you will win yeah because that's natural that's that's who you you are born to be but you're right that self-awareness is the starting point of what really drives you yeah and I think when you're talking about looking at other people's lives and saying wow they're amazing but actually being able to sort of say well yes they achieve great things but there's a there's a whole life that's going on behind that and whilst you can cherry pick the bits where you think, I wish I could do this, that and the other,

do you ever really want to step into someone else's life and have everything that comes with it? You know, probably not. I think we are very guilty of that, especially in the UK. I think we're very, very guilty of looking at, of trying to sort of showcase lives as this sort of perfect life. Everybody's completely different and everybody's very individual. And I find so much inspiration of, you know, some of my closest friends that, you know,

they're lovely, lovely, kind of that almost, that repetitive simplicity of the world that they exist in. I don't want it because I couldn't live like that because it's just not who I am naturally. But there are so many days where I wish I could. You know what I think? You know, Sarah, why can't you be really, really uncomplicated, really simple and not always try and create chaos all the time?

Why can't you do that? But, you know, I'm 47 now, and I just, I'm not going to ever stop causing chaos. You've acknowledged it, embraced it. I am embracing my need for mayhem and chaos around me. Is that why you had four children very quickly? It is why, I think it is why I had four children very, very quickly. I mean, four kids in four years, You know, that is utter mayhem.

And I absolutely loved it. Really, right from the get-go, just each new person coming along, just thinking, yep, this is... They were brilliant. I mean, brilliant. I've got great kids, actually. I am so unbelievably blessed.

You know, I think the challenges of parenting are bigger than anything else I've ever, ever even dreamed of smounting. But they're four wonderful individuals and to see how their little brains work on a daily basis is, for me, it's an absolute gift. You know, it's such a joy i god i love it love it love it love it love it no that's great it's actually so nice to hear there's a

couple of things you've said already where i think we don't really hear hear that roman i'm thinking you know through the conversation i've had at firstly saying i'm a great mum i think is a lovely thing to be able to say about yourself and also being so such big supporter of your offspring is good as well I always found I'm my children's biggest fan especially when they're not in the room with me I tell them I have solely lovely memories lovely thoughts oh yeah don't get me wrong I mean you know there's not a day goes by where we all don't want to throttle each other but um it's all part of it like I'm so proud of them they They're really incredible human beings, actually.

We've been really blessed. And I think, you know, I want to embrace that, this magic that we have, you know, this family, that it's more important to me than anything else in the world. And I'm just, you know, lucky that because I have that and that, you know, I'm very, very lucky to have that, everything else is a bonus. You know, it's all because I have that, it's all a bonus.

Which means that when I do something that I actually enjoy outside of that, I'm like, oh, this is good. You know, or even when something goes really wrong outside of that I'm like well you were a bonus anyway you know it's yeah as long as I've got as long as you don't touch that I'm going to be okay if that makes sense no I totally get that when I first had my first baby I felt like so long as we're okay inside our four walls I don't really mind what's happening elsewhere like that that feeling of like that's where the heart is that's where the important bit is it did kind of really help it actually I found it really liberated me with decisions I was making with work actually because I felt like I could take bigger risks in a way I mean obviously you want

to make sure you you know reef over your head and that kind of thing but in terms of like that fire in my belly and just running towards it was like well yeah you know so long as that bit of my life is okay I'll just you know throw some wild cards in there with work and it actually was really healthy what was actually happening when you did have your first baby you said you were running a business with yeah so um yeah I was running a public company that um and I had my chain of Indian restaurants I had 17 Indian restaurants um and was also responsible for lots of other brands within that public company so I had like 1500 staff at the time wow um this is the company where you took it from four restaurants to that's right the Bombay Bicycle Club and I had many And you know what it's like when you have your first? It's actually very portable.

Your baby's really portable. I've used that adjective myself. It's very, very portable. People are a bit shocked sometimes when I've said that. They're really portable. They're really portable. So, you know, actually having Minnie didn't hugely change the way in which I functioned with work. I still did my really long hours.

I was still present everywhere. She just did my really long hours. I was still present everywhere. She just came in a papoose, off we went. You know, I was feeding her, so that wasn't difficult at all. And actually, I managed to do that for quite a while. I was pregnant when she was five months, I think, five months old with Monty. And even pregnant with a baby, again, the whole thing's really portable. Where I first struggled with my life and, well, actually my life, I can say full stop, my life,

or I first struggled in the context of me being a mum, was actually when Monty came along. So Minnie was just 15 months at the time and so less portable right they're walking on they should just be like oh hang on a minute and I had another one I put you down here you might get over there and then I had another one so Monty was really portable because Monty would come with me on a papoose and I was feeding him and so all the same rules applied but I'd got this toddler who's not so portable couldn't take her with me little defiant maybe everything

exactly like and you just just a danger basically I mean you know it's not whatsoever yeah and suddenly double buggies are not quite as easy to get into restaurants you know because I was running restaurants at the time as oh wow you know as a papoose and a, you know, a nappy bag on your backpack. So I think Monty was five months old. So Minnie will have been, God, what? I don't know if, so 20 months, so just over one and a half. And I went into London for the first time without either of them and I was still breastfeeding actually and I sat in a board meeting I don't know did you breastfeed

yeah so you know that feeling when you literally fill up and you're like oh god I'm this is going to go really wrong yeah and you think somebody's crying somewhere, wanting this milk and I'm sat here. It controlled all of my brain. Oh God, it was awful. And I left that board meeting and came home to Michael and I said, I can't do it. I can't do it.

I cannot continue to operate as if I haven't had children. And it wasn't until then that it hit me because actually Minnie had been so portable. So I'd had a baby and everything had continued as normal, really. So it wasn't until I had the second and that I left them both and I had that moment in the boardroom where I said, what are you doing, Sarah? You cannot continue to live like this. And that was it. The following day, I went in and said, right, either I'm going to take a year off or I'm going to sell my business. And I sold it, sold it back to them, agreed a price. From that day onwards, I basically said,

okay, nobody else in my life can be reliant on me getting up in the morning other than my family. That was my decision at that moment to say, I still want to work. I still want to use my brain. I still needed to earn money. You know, all that stuff that we all have, all that normal pressure that we all have all that normal pressure

that we all had all of that was still there but I said I have to find a way of doing it and not leaving my breastfeeding babies at home you know metaphorically when it was actually real at the time but um so that was a very very very big defining moment for me yeah um but again that was a very, very, very big defining moment for me. But again, that was that whole I'm driven by freedom. So be free. Allow yourself to make these decisions. And once I'd made that decision, it's like the universe just conspires to allow that to happen

because I was open to things I'd not been open to before. And I was close to things that perhaps I'd had been open to before. So I ended up, you know, managing to fit my life around that need to be with the two kids and then three and then four very quickly. Yeah. That's a big deal, isn't it? Selling the business. But I um when you make those big decisions if there's even if there's a lot of a doubt you know in your peripheral vision if there's something in the kernel of it that excites you and it's normally the right decision isn't it yeah and for me I mean of course I I was like on a roll I could have opened 50 of those sites and I could have sold it

and made a lot more money I did not care I really didn't I what I could not do ever again was sit there like and feel like that had made me feel split in two feeling I just came home and I said to Michael I I can't do it I just can't do it it's it was fighting too much um of who I was naturally so I needed to make that decision and it was the right it was the right thing to do do you think that the you before you had babies would have been a bit nervous about the idea that it might affect you in that way um god it's a good question I'm not sure i thought about it enough actually before i just plunged in um no i think i was excited i you know i i had no idea it was going to affect me none whatsoever and i probably did quite blindly think that everything's possible you know everything um and it's it's not you do

have to find your balance for what makes you driven and what makes you tick um and I also don't think that that's finite I think that moves all the time. And I think going back to that self-awareness point that actually if you are in touch with yourself, that can move daily. I mean, it can move weekly. Sometimes you stay in one place for a month, you know, in your soul or in your brain. And other times it can move on a daily basis.

But I think it's really important to listen to that and I especially think you know at times when life can get very stressful you have to listen to yourself and say okay you know what do I need to do now to rebalance where I am at the moment you know we I've been very very guilty of being a proper adrenaline junkie for many years of my life and now realize how unhealthy that existence was to have to be pumped full I was literally I was hooked up when you say adrenaline what kind of like jump like bungee jumping no I mean I'm very part I used to be very partial to the old bungee jump but not anymore but anything really love roller coaster love a roller coaster love a fun fair yeah love a fun fair love a roller coaster love a you know anything

fast all that stuff but it wasn't so much that it was just gen life in general that buzz that you get i mean even if you do you know even if you do live tv you know that it's a buzz right it's that you before you go on your body naturally fills itself with adrenaline so that you can survive the experience. Survive is a good word for it. You know, and all those things, I just kept throwing myself into these situations where I would constantly be out of my comfort zone

deliberately to get that buzz from the adrenaline. So do you think if something scares you, you would be quite likely to say yes if that's the only reason to say no, if that makes sense? I think certainly the younger me would definitely have said, you know, I'm just, I had this such a huge addiction to adrenaline that then, I mean, I do still now, like I can feel it in my system when I get the,

I do still get such a buzz from it, but I've also now spent many years of my life weaning myself off it and realised I'm a lot healthier for it in my head and also in my body, actually. I'm a lot healthier for having a more balanced existence, basically, than I used to. So I think pre-kids,

you know, it was like, I was so addicted to adrenaline, it's like, yep, let's have loads of babies, let's do it, we can do this, all great, and then, you know, actually, you realise after a while that you, you know, if you've got too much adrenaline in your system, you don't, you never sort of stop to think, to reflect, reflect to take time to sort of feel the things around you you spend too much too much of your time in the future not enough time in the present you know all that it protects you doesn't it totally protects you about things as well um and actually it is it is much healthier to um have a balance yeah much healthier and to reflect but i think yeah those things have to come at the right time in your life because have a balance. Yeah. Much healthier. And to reflect. But I think, yeah,

those things have to come at the right time in your life because, you know, a lot of the things that you, the seeds you sowed in your 20s and 30s gave root to the things that allowed you that canopy. Totally, totally.

It does all kind of tessellate. Yeah, I've got a really good friend, actually, and we feel like we're almost like sort of soul sisters and we've lived each other's life in reverse so she in her 20s did everything I dream of doing now you know she went and lived in India and you know spent her whole time in meditating and I mean just this

beautiful existence in her 20s sort of traveling nomadically freely um and now in her 40s she is running so fast really trying to make business work whereas I did it the other way around yeah I mean I do not live in India and I do not meditate and I never meditate actually I really ought to but you know I still live quite a hectic life obviously with four kids it's really we have a really busy house and a busy life but um it's really interesting because I think those decisions that you make in your 20s I mean I worked like you know 100 hour weeks in my 20s I was so driven and it definitely has helped me now to feel whoa I need to really rebalance those almost two decades where I lived off adrenaline yeah and it's also because I you know financially as well I almost I'm gaining from that time then yeah you know now if that makes sense so um yeah i guess it's balanced it's all about balance and

i guess as well if you've had that kind of eye on the i mean you know presumably your peers when you were in your early mid-20s and you're getting you know you're right in your flow and these ideas and picking up the phone and all that stuff they're probably going through what you know happens all the time now that's a protracted adolescence and going to uni and finding your feet and ups and downs and making mistakes and some people don't get to that point till much later where they feel like that driven but then because then you had your babies you almost get that little bit of time back when you're doing things that are just a bit more present in their world at the same time sort of synonymously with you know yeah simultaneously is what I meant yeah with with your kids do you think that was partly what I mean you say you

sort of calmed down the adrenaline but you still did take four children like around the world for a few years I like the way that's taken the foot off the gas should have calmed things down and traveled the world do you know what that was actually mean, health-wise, that's like the best thing I've ever done. I mean, well, no, I'm going to start by saying full stop, that is the best thing I've ever done in my life ever. Totally magical. Amazing. So just to sort of paraphrase,

you took when the kids were between, did you say five and ten? Five and ten, yes. So we left in nearly five years ago now. Yeah, nearly five years. Five years ago this summer we left in nearly five years ago now yeah nearly five years five years ago this summer we left um and this was a two-year planned trip it was a one year round the world ticket day-to-day I mean how much you'd spent a couple of years planning what you're going to do or so um we actually ended up staying away for three years we only just came back last year that was brilliant I know it's so brilliant I think it's fantastic it's so brilliant

it's the dream yeah to be honest it was always my dream so it was very much driven by the fact my dad who's proper northern grafter was like you're not going traveling now Sarah you need to get a job and i was like no no no no i if i go traveling you know i need to get it out my system i'm naturally it's what i want to do i'm naturally nomadic no you'll never come back so i went straight and got a job straight from uni but managed to uh get a job which allowed me to travel. So I ended up running the international department of Pizza Express, loved it, did loads of travelling and found my route to travel through work.

So when did you first leave the country? Were you like in your 20s when you first left the country? No, so we'd been on like Euro camp and stuff when I was 14, I think, or 15. But I was desperate to travel. Anyway, you know what, this is back to my point, you can't fight nature. Like I just needed to travel. I really needed to travel. And every time, even in my twenties, when Pizza Express or whoever I was working for, I was renegotiating my contract. I would always negotiate for days off. That was always my thing.

No, not bonuses. I wanted days off. So it was always trying to get the maximum amount of time off that I could have so that I could actually go travelling and go away. I'd save every penny, spend every single spare penny that I had was on travelling. So when we decided to take the kids travelling,

it was two years before so it's 2014 so we we knew we'd finished having kids Marley the youngest was three and Minnie was seven at the time and we sat down and talked about it and said this is you know we there's only there is a window in children's lives where it is, I guess, most easiest to do. So you haven't got kids in the middle of A-levels or GCSEs. You haven't got teenagers that really want to be with their mates. Yeah, their friends, yeah. You haven't got a baby or a toddler that could drown and every time they see a bit of

water um so this five to ten was literally we were like if we don't go now we are not going to go because Marley had just old enough to ride a bike to climb a mountain and Minnie was young enough for the whole friendship thing not to be an issue so we're like right we've got to go now this was two years before um and it took us almost two years to make ourselves redundant from our life and because we were so intertwined with so many different things because of this new life that we created where we said right we need to work around the fact that we're a mum and a dad. Because Michael does the same, has exactly this very similar life to me. So we're like, right, we had little investments

or businesses that we worked with or maybe sat on the board. We had lots of different aspects to our lives. So it took us nearly two years to make ourselves redundant. Michael was really reluctant at first. He didn't want to go. And then I kept making little scrapbooks of uh like with pictures of the kids in amazing places sticking them onto photos with a big smile on their face and like made the kids write him letters saying how much they wanted to go to all these places I mean I was terrible emotional black man it's terrible this went on

for honestly for so long all his christmas presents were like traveling stuff little books and things it was really fun anyway just kept like putting little pictures in front of him and anyway in the end he came around in each room scratch book um picture of the world oh it's anyway how would i look in a sombrero i know mommy's told me to ask you always you always wanted to do whatever anyway very very it was brilliant finally came around and then from nowhere dragon's den i mean it was so left field and um they made they called me i think it was in february or march they made contact we were supposed to be going away that summer oh wow you're all planned not planned planned because

we didn't really plan all that much but it was like yeah we'll do it this august so we'll we were going to give notice to school you know in april so that the term and then we were going to go sometime during the summer nothing booked or or anything, but that was the plan. Anyway, Dragon's Den came along and I was like, oh God, you know, literally offer me anything in the world. The answer's no. However, Dragon's Den, that would be so much fun. So fun. Get to meet Deborah Mead. You know, this is so cool. You know, it's just like, how cool. So anyway, I thought, right, well, I'll just go. I didn't think much of it.

I went along, did actually meet Deborah to do the interview. And I thought, you know, there was tens and tens of people that they were screen testing. So I thought, oh, it'll just be a good crack. I'll get to meet Deborah for the day. Nothing, think nothing of it. And obviously, anyway, I then got offered it within sort of a week or two um so and I'd said to Michael my experience in TV was you never do one series you have to go back for a second series because the first series you're always like a rabbit in headlights you don't really enjoy it you're the

new kid on the block you're trying to find your feet you don't know how it all works second series you love it always hit the ground running you enjoy it you know everybody you feel comfortable you're at your best it works so I said to Michael you know unless they kick me out basically I need to commit to two series of this yeah which meant then postponing the trip for one more year which we were very comfortable doing, but we couldn't postpone it for longer than that because of the ages of the kids. Yeah. So that's what we did.

And yeah, so I did the two series of Dragon's Den, finished filming it in the June. We left in the August. Where was the first place you travelled to? Canada was the first. Why Canada? Just because you've either got to go right or left. um where was the first place you traveled to canada was the first why canada just because you've either got to go right or left basically um and we went with the seasons okay so it was it was autumn it was

august so if we'd have gone right and sort of headed Asia way, if we'd have gone that way, we needed, we could have done the whole thing in reverse. But actually the way that it worked with the seasons, because we wanted to spend christmas in patagonia and there's a lot of patagonia in fact most of patagonia you can't

get to in their winter which is our summer so it needed to be that it need basically there are some places that we managed to get to you cannot go to apart from in december right and we really wanted to spend quite a lot of time down apart from in december right and we really wanted to spend quite a lot of time down there chile and argentina and we were incredible really wanted to see king pen pink king penguins that was a real thing and that's like right on the tip at the bottom did that happen it did happen wow it was amazing they're like three and a half foot or something no they're the emperor ones you have to go to antarctica to see them and you have to go to antarctica to see them but the king ones are still like they're still like a meter but they're the emperor ones you have to go to antarctica to see them and you have to go to antarctica to see them but the king ones are still like they're still like a meter but they're

the they're the proper penguin proper penguins i know bless them they're all proper but you know what i mean they're like kids sketchbook penguins but they're like the baby emperor we really wanted to see them so we were quite driven by that so yeah Canada all the way down the west coast of America all the way down till we got sort of Mexico um Chile Argentina Patagonia and then our favorite place in the world still is uh is Byron Bay in Australia. Love it. Just because the lifestyle is so easy. Just, yeah, it's very chilled. Everyone's got time. It's kind.

It's very cool. Really in touch with nature. Great for kids. So we try and go for a month a year. We have done for a long time, tried to go for a month a year. It's where we kind of, our soul convalesces almost in Byron Bay. We love it.

And we'd been travelling there for quite a long time anyway as a family. And we decided that we would, because the kids didn't have any education while we were travelling. We thought we'd stop there and live for three, four months. And then the kids could do a term there

and we could just pootle about. Everybody in Byron Bay has got this thing on the back of their car that says, my life is better than your holiday. And we kind of wanted to see if that was true. So we'd be like, right, exactly. So let's live there for a bit and see what that's like. So that was great.

Loved that. And then came back up Asia. And then when we were in Australia just about to leave Byron Bay I just said to Michael I don't want to go back that was supposed to be your last we this was April but we still had May June July and then beginning of August to do in Asia Southeast Southeast Asia we went to sort of Borneo, Malaysia, Philippines, which is amazing, amazing. Thailand, Singapore, you know, all the usual, like Southeast Asia, basically.

Do you have quite a good sense of geography already, just out of curiosity? A little, I mean, ish. I tell you what's interesting is we are so disorganised. I mean, we're bad, bad, bad planners. To what extent? Oh, like as in we would often, well, bad planners. And... To what extent? Oh, like, as in, we would often... Well, let's just see how the day goes,

or, you know, let's just see how the week goes. So we would book stuff, you know, a day in advance. We'd sit in a hotel in... Yeah, we sat in... Where were we? We sat in a hotel in Brisbane, going, the weather looks rubbish for the rest of the week we were going to go north we're going to go up to sort of um Port Douglas and all up there weather looked terrible and they got dengue fever and I just got pregnant with Nelly oh no this is

actually a different holiday what we're talking about it's a completely different holiday yeah it's a completely different holiday same place a completely different holiday. Yeah, it was a completely different holiday. Same place, a completely different holiday. No, I wasn't pregnant with Nellie because actually we were already with Nellie. But that was exactly the same thing happening. You'd sit there and go, the weather looks terrible and then book a flight to, you'd then move your flight, which was supposed to be,

as long as you kept going in the same way around the world, the round the world ticket is completely flexible. But you have to keep moving left to right if you go left to right you can't go back yeah you have to keep going in the same direction so we just kept and then we went across to perth and spent some time there and you know you just we just kept moving it to try and be um were you both keeping a sort of equal share of like logistics in terms of like phoning to change flights and stuff because that's quite do you know what we had nothing i mean what else like there was no if you think about it right that you

you're not doing anything else it was so easy to just wow right now that seems massive right because we've got lives and we do stuff and yeah it's true but when you're there but all we had was 23 kilos of luggage that was all we had what do you do with all the rest of your stuff storage storage everything went into storage we rented out our house um quite weird but you saw everything again when you come back well we then didn't come back so um we then which was really all ended up being quite bizarre. But we ended up saying, right, don't want to go back. Why don't we go and do a ski season? None of us could ski ever. None of us had ever learned to ski.

Michael had done a bit. So we sat in the room of this Airbnb, Googling ski in, ski out schools Europe, because we thought the kids should probably go to school. Found this little place in Switzerland, then rented a place for a year there got the kids into the school we'd never been but ended up staying there for two years which was amazing but the great thing with that is life continued we felt that if we'd have gone if we'd have stayed in australia which is probably our natural habitat um parents didn't want to come and visit us uh we were too far away and also um we still did have a lot of business commitments

and we said we were going away for a year so the first year was you actually said right we're not doing any business stuff it's literally just going to be pretty much I think I flew back three times, maybe four. Okay. So I did come back to do some important things. But actually, even then, we did a lot of it. It wasn't Zoom, but I don't even know what we used, like FaceTime or whatever. Even then, you could do it remotely. I mean, nowadays, you could do it so much easier. I mean, God, you could live anywhere now.

It's fantastic. I know, it's a lot easier and easier, hasn't it? And then I would just fly back from Geneva every so often, which actually was really, really great. But during that period, we decided that we were not going to return to Oxfordshire, which was where we had lived before. We felt like three years doing what we'd done,

the kids, Oxfordshire's really really lovely it was very sort of middle England um and we just felt culturally it wasn't the right fit for us anymore it was beautiful while we were bringing the kids up but we felt we needed a bit more um edge I think it's probably the word just a bit more edge so then we just started looking around thinking right we'll come back to the UK Michael really wanted to come back the kids wanted to come back Minnie wanted to come back actually our oldest um and we just started looking at schools and thought what about Brighton and here we are and here you are yeah 18 months ago we came back well I think I personally have always thought

the idea of travel like that with a kid sounds incredible. And did you find that most people were really supportive? I mean, when we went, it was a very mixed bag. Even family were like, you know, what are you doing? What do you think they were worried about? Just because it's such a big deal to leave your life for a year? It's so interesting. I think it really says such a lot about fundamentally often

how different people are. It's always about the other person. Yeah, and I just think, you know, back to that sort of thing we said earlier about some people need structure, they need routine, they need to know what's coming the idea of going traveling around the world whilst might seem like a really romantic lovely idea actually when a lot of people really thought about it you know that gave them proper anxiety thinking oh my god you're doing what for a year saying do you

really understand what you're taking on there? So many people would say to us, you know, I don't think this is right for the children. They need routine. They need structure. They need an education. It is an education though, isn't it? Oh, I mean, yeah. You're definitely preaching to the converted with me.

But a lot of people really struggled with the concept, which, you know, I certainly would never dream of judging them for because I'm like, well, each to their own, you know. Were there any moments, though, when you're going around, you know, when everybody's jet lagged or something has gone a bit wonky and you think, oh, actually, the idea I had of it and where it matches up is not the same or is it actually just, you're just in the here and now and not really um I mean loads of it went wrong of course because it all everything

does its life right but what was kind of brilliant about it was not having anything else to worry about that was what made it so amazing so you know when we did turn up in Perth um because we had randomly booked a flight and done absolutely no research whatsoever and got off the plane and thought well how odd can it be to find you know an Airbnb or something when we get there we'll just get on the internet we literally had done nothing um only to find out that it was some huge conferences in the whole of it seemed like in the whole of the west coast of australia um we were stuck in that airport i mean it must have been about eight hours oh no with with the kids can you imagine no car hire there was no not a single car to be hired there was no um nowhere to rent in the end we had to wait until a car was returned

the following morning to be able to get into a car they had to drive three hours to the most awful place to sleep you know and that happened you know that was just because we were readers that we just didn't plan it well enough um but the nice thing with not planning it right was you know suddenly we were in in Australia we were there for long enough and then suddenly you'd be like I need to smell new smells I need to hear new smells. I need to hear new languages, you know, and you could go, right, it's time to go to Southeast Asia. And you would just go.

And the other thing that I loved, God, it was liberating. I mean, talk about freedom, was we only had 23 kilos of luggage each and that was your lot. So you would turn up somewhere and think, oh, that's nice i'll have that i think no you won't where's it going to go you've got one suitcase so you never replaced

your trainers until they actually broke or your flip-flops you know until they ripped um you know you had two bikinis or one bikini for the whole trip and that was your lot that was it that was it and it was that it was brilliant the only time it went a bit wrong uh in terms of kit we could have done with a bit more kit patagonia we could have done with a bit more kit actually but when we went to borneo i mean i, I've got this photograph. If I had it to hand, I would show it to you just to make you laugh. Honestly, so we turned up in the middle of the jungle to see the orangutans. This had been a big dream, right?

We, all six of us, in that, you know those trousers that cost a dollar from like Bali? Yeah. The cotton ones with the elasticated waves all six of us are in these trousers with um you know similar sort of caftani type tops that have cost us like three dollars or whatever in indonesia um everybody around us looks like they've come out of some Indiana Jones movie. They are in full jungle kit, hats, leech protectors, gloves, neck protectors, again, for the leeches. And it was, we were like this family that got off the plane going,

okay, we did not get the memo at all. The kids were like, mama, look at us. Anyway, we then went trekking through the jungle with our trainers on, totally inappropriate. Barley trousers on, totally inappropriate. All of us came back, we're covered in leeches I mean it was not pretty I haven't heard good things about them it was not pretty at all and that was just you know in an ideal world you would go on holiday for 10 14 days and you'd be fully kitted up, right? Because you'd planned for it

but we, that was, there were some times when it just didn't work because we only had 23 kilos of luggage and you couldn't buy the kit. And if we'd have bought hiking boots for those 10 days to go through the jungle,

we would have had to carry them the rest of the time so we didn't. But yeah, so there were times it really backfired but best year of my life. Yeahfired but best year of my life yeah definitely the best year of my life that sounds amazing i i i think i read that you said that your intention was to sort of try and like have these moments that you could almost bottle i mean

does that it sounds like it's worked like you have got it sort of in your head as yeah so precious thing i have this thing that you have to regularly do something that punctuates life so that in your memory you have the ability to remember that moment properly so if you spend 10 years doing exactly the same thing when you look back it'll all be a blur whereas if you've punctuated your life with something you will remember on that day what your kids were like age three age seven age five because something happened on that day it could be you went traveling or you you went on a particular trip or something happened where you have been able to do something where in your memory no just anchored it a bit yeah you've you've

punctuated it and anchored it and i read somewhere that if if you can remember when you relive something in your head um the emotion that it will from a memory the emotion that comes back to you is up to 95 percent of the actual event when you you really live it okay and i really believe in trying to go back always to do to these experiences in there and and to try and be able to remember something and travel has always been a big thing for us so even since the kids were very very young I can remember what they were like at particular ages not because of my normal life actually but because of something that I did it might have been part of my normal life and but when I travelled I wanted to I absolutely wanted to bottle a moment in time of our family that I will

never forget them at that age. Yeah. It's easy to forget, isn't it? Them at particular ages, very easy. I mean, now, of course, we have the benefit of video, but, which is great. Yeah, but it's a different thing as well when you're actually remembering it rather than just looking back at something anyway, isn't it? And I definitely think we did that that year. And also then in Switzerland, you know, that was an amazing experience for the kids. You know, they went to this tiny little

slipper-wearing chalet school, first-name terms with the teachers and basically skied five half days a week, you know, just learnt a skill. And they've definitely had to play catch up when they've come back to the uk on their english and some maths but definitely their english um but god i wouldn't swap it for the i mean i wouldn't swap any of it not a moment of it and you and you saw your like family members went once you sort of settled in switzerland did you

they would come and visit yeah they came to visit. My mum and my dad, actually, they're separated, but both my mum and my dad came out to us in Byron. Oh, okay. God, they went a long way. Yeah, during the trip, which was really nice, but they made it quite clear. Certainly my mum was like, this is the last long-haul trip I'm ever doing. Do not move out here.

It's like, yeah, fair enough. Well, things you mentioned, I mean, it sounds like yeah fair enough well things you mentioned you might I mean it sounds like some of your childhood in Stoke might have been a bit different to the childhood your parents your children are having but how how similar are you to your parents do you think you've a similar sort of style I mean it doesn't sound like your dad's travels the same as yours maybe no I'm really different actually from um certainly my my view of traditional view of risk and stuff like that I think is very different my my dad is really intellectual which I'm not at all and my brother's very intellectual but I'm not um and my dad's very

routine very structured I'm really close to my dad. He's amazing. I'm wondering if a lot of this is quite a big rebellion. I don't know what, yeah, maybe. The sort of monotony, I don't know. Yeah, but I'm very close to my dad. I adore him. He's amazing.

He's also an amazing granddad. He lives in France. And my mum, I think had my mum been born at a different time she's you know she's a post just post-war baby um very very working class families both of them you know they grew up with sort of three generations in a in a tiny little terraced house um i mean my mom's just sold the house that she grew up in for 50 grand which shows you know it's um this is all in stoke this is all in stoke and but i think i think she she's much more she is more sort of street wise but i guess she's probably more afraid of doing something different

than i am but but it's the era that they grew up in that you know they were real grafters it was like get a job stay there get a pension um and that's I just didn't want to do that ever and never wanted to do it but what my mum always did do um she always made me feel that no matter what it was that I was trying to do I was I was very capable and she never tried to she never solved the problem for me she always showed me how to solve the problem and I think that was huge in my upbringing and that she helped my brain to to become a brain that solves problems yeah um that's a big deal actually huge she gave me um an enormous amount of inner inner confidence i think to be able to do that i mean you know i've had my you know years of insecurities and imposter syndrome like everybody else has I'm sure but um she

definitely gave me this tool to say just give it a go what's the worst that can happen and my whole life I phoned her and gone you're not gonna believe this but this they're gonna this is when they're gonna find me out she's like you've always said that I was Sarah they won't find you out you're fine keep going like no no no honestly this time it's really big like they're definitely going to find me out this time no you said that when you did this and you'll be fine um so yeah no my parents are great my brother's great actually really good yeah i suppose it's quite it must be quite a thing if you know that you're raising your kids in a very different childhood to the one you have.

And I know you've spoken a lot about how it's really important for children to have a really good sense of the importance of money. And I think actually it's a thing that I think a lot of people are quite squeamish about knowing how to deal with their kids with that. And I'd love to hear any tips you have for me because I think I make a lot of really quite obvious mistakes. Do you know what? I think we all do.

I mean, only history is going to tell us whether we get it right, right? That's the thing. On so many counts. That sums up my attitude to parenting. Yeah, I know. Come back to me when they're grown up and we'll see how I did. That's exactly what I say all the time.

I have no idea. What I know is that I am doing the best job I can. What I don't know is if I'm getting it right. And I have absolutely no idea whether or not I'm getting it right. I think with money, what we've always done from a very young age, I'm completely paranoid about my kids not growing up with the value of money because, you know, I worked from the age of 11, always had a pound in my pocket, always worked really hard. Um, and you know, didn't have anything really growing up. And my kids,

you know, they live in a beautiful house. They have amazing holidays holidays they've traveled around the world um they go to a private school you know so they it's completely different for them now I'm obviously I'm like a lot of our generation's parents that want their kids to be happy you know I think we're a lot more focused on mental health and making sure they're happy and be fulfilled than our parents were you know I never had a conversation about my mental health with my parents they were like just crack on um but I do what I what I think we've tried to do as much as possible and again I have no idea whether we get it right or not is um we've tried to keep it very real all the time so we're very open with them about what things cost the value of money the alternative you know so if you spend this here this is what you could get here

how to get it cheaper um i mean even you know if you i don't believe in giving kids pocket money so they've had to earn you know where they can um where they've been able to and actually during lockdown they have the older two have um managed to find little ways of earning money online and stuff you know just mini does quite a lot with selling and buying on depop um it is isn't it yeah a month but it's great because they understand about shipping and percentages uh commission and all that kind of stuff and then they put the price up and then they realize after they paid the commission to depop they're like hang on when you get in one pound 50 and i've got to go and walk to the post office to get it sent off you know and then you

think well if you did 10 of those at the same time is that worth it you know but yeah but I can't do the 10 so okay well then you need to work out you need a better you know you need to sell something with a higher value and then so we just try very very very hard to keep it real even our business we started a new business this year which I said i would never do but anyway i have um we started a new business this year and floated it on the stock market in january and even nightcap nightcap yeah so it's it's lots of uh we're buying and growing and rolling out lots of bars basically cocktail bars it's great Sounds good to me. It's great, yeah, exactly, it's great. It's great. Simulist. Lots of fun. And that, even doing that, we have, because it's been locked down and, you know,

we've all been together, even that we have talked, certainly the older two, who are really interested, through the structuring, how we've done it, where it came from, how you buy the business you know so that the numbers which always seem so big especially when you you know float something on the stock market you start to talk about millions um so that it comes back to you know we came up with the idea walking in switzerland um which is i always call best up with the best ideas actually when I'm on holiday. But so when we're having that sort of moment of relaxation of our brain, we came up with

the idea and then to go through the process with the kids. So I think that's the thing is we always try and keep it real. So, and then I wonder whether or not sometimes I think, God, have we kept it too real? When you're like, no, no, we can't have that. It's so expensive. And it's like, it's not that expensive, you know? And you think, well, actually, I'd rather have them that way round. Sometimes I think, have I gone too extreme the other way?

No, I think it's pretty good because I think there's a lot, especially when you're talking about things like in business terms, I think so much of it is kept very intimidating and it almost feels like it's uh you know if i take it to a slight sort of you know extreme version of it i think it stops people having as much um saying what's going on in their lives you know i wish

they'd taught me at school about rent and mortgages and how to break down how businesses work because i felt it's almost like not giving people the freedom to be able to actually go and make those decisions and have a bit more autonomy over it and you know especially you know when you're a young girl I think you can feel really you can act very daft around money and be quite intimidated by the conversations and I think I really wish I could I'd love to be able to give them a little bit more confidence with that. It actually made me think a bit when you were saying about you going away and some people saying, acting negatively towards their day if you're taking the kids around the world.

I think, well, it's quite, it can threaten something in yourself when someone does something you've always been too scared to do. You know, a lot of people are governed by that kind of feeling. And money is a big thing. And a lot of our emotional response with money, and I think a lot of it is emotional, is that it's sort of done by the time you're about 10 how you saw your mum how you saw your dad how you felt about your pocket money and yeah I think um yeah I think sort of like love money and food those three areas of your life I think a lot of it is emotionally hardwired by the time you hit double yeah and you can obviously build on that but yeah and i think that's i i you know i don't believe in um keeping stuff from kids in the sense

you think oh that that's too complicated or that might hurt them or whatever i actually we always took my husband's from the faroe islands and he always talked about this little faroese backpack so it's like they've all got these little this little Faroese backpack. So it's like they've all got this little Faroese backpack on their back and what we're trying to do with our whole life is just put little tools in it that they can then use

as they get older. So even if something really tragic happens within a family, you can work through it with them because the reality is those things will happen in life. Yeah. You know, and it's the same with money.

You know, we, like, my parents would never tell me what they earned. Well, I was wondering, do you take it that far? Then you could talk to them about what you earned. I would tell them. Talk about mortgages. Tell them mortgages, tell them, yeah, everything. That's actually quite good. I'm going to go home and sit more down. But you see, I think the thing is what I, you know,

and where I'm conscious is like obviously our numbers are just bigger than you know average numbers if you know what i mean and it's really important that they understand that in the context of average so they understand you know this is where we started this was what this was my starting salary um this is a normal, you know, this is where we started. This was my starting salary. This is a normal wage. You know, this is what people get paid in the bars. This is what we would get paid. This is what, you know, so they start to, okay,

and then they look up, well, what does rent cost in London? And then they start, Minnie starts looking at like a, how much would it cost her to rent a flat? And she's like, well, I can't afford, I will never be able to afford to rent anything in London. How am going to be able to do that yes you're right end of meeting exactly you're exactly you're like exactly you know exactly and on your starting salary yeah you're never going to be able to do that you know and and that's so I just I feel like I've always got to put these tools in this fairways backpack somehow and I think we will have probably got it wrong a lot where we've given them probably given them too much too soon

I don't I just don't know who knows you just don't know do you and and and I but it's definitely I mean I bought my eldest a book on how babies are made when he was like three it was just really stupid idea but I thought it's great I don't want him to have any awkwardness it's gonna be great yeah he was like you were walking through the park he's like is there a baby in your tummy now and I was like no and he goes you sure it might be some of daddy's sperm in there I definitely introduced that book too small it's just stupid but then you never have to have the awkward conversation with the teenagers you see because it's like you've done it no no definitely definitely yeah I'm not squeamish about that just maybe a bit

yeah just sort of fast forwarded through things a little bit sometimes but actually I think I think the money thing is an interesting one because I think it's quite loaded and I wondered if maybe the fact that you came from an area like Stoke and I've been to Stoke lots of times and I know that you know that the country is we're not it's not a balanced country the UK no there are very affluent areas and areas that aren't so affluent and Stoke is one of those areas you know and the country is, it's not a balanced country, the UK. There are very affluent areas and areas that aren't so affluent. And Stoke is one of those areas. Yeah, exactly.

And you've got to, that gives you a certain perspective for the rest of your life, I'm sure. It also gives you, you know, I was very driven to get out, actually. I mean, I love Stoke. You know, I'm very much, it'll always be a home to me, always.

And a lot of my really good mates are still there and my mum's still there um I still get my Staffordshire oat cakes delivered every week from there you know and I love it but I definitely was driven to get out you know there was definitely a part of me that was like no I want to go and see go where there's more opportunity and you know my kids haven't been brought up into that I had a conversation with my dad about this a few years ago I remember going how on earth am I ever going to keep my kids grounded like how do you do that when you send them to a private school you know and they wear this

ridiculous posh uniform when they're five years old. And I'm like, it just so doesn't go, it goes against everything for me. But I've still done it, right? I've still sent them to these schools. Yeah, but I think that's okay because as a parent, you're always wanting to do the best for them.

Exactly. And if you can offer them a really brilliant education, that's like a really, you know, that's a very natural instinct to follow, isn't it? Yeah, my dad's like, you know know that's a very natural and my dad's like to follow isn't that yeah my dad's like you know it's not their fault that's okay it's not their fault don't don't punish them or be annoyed with them for not understanding what you understand they were not born into the same house and they you know my mum and dad came from much more much tougher background than I came from they then actually you know my mum was a maths teacher my dad worked in Wedgwood and so they

actually had a proper job with proper salaries so you know again we made that big step up and then I've made a big you know another step up but I think they probably made the biggest step actually um my mum and dad did but it's not their fault so it's just trying you know it's got I could talk about it forever because I just you just don't know you just don't know I think actually in anyone that's feeling quite fulfilled and satisfied and loves what they do they're always worried that whatever kernel gave them that drive if you take if you if you remove it through circumstance through achieving things in your life how are you going to instill that same fire in your kids i think it's like an eternal but you can't i actually really think it's nature that i think like having had four kids do you not have this with your five they must all be very driven yes

i mean sorry very differently driven like they're different right yeah all of them totally different yeah and that that's i know obviously there's a difference between number one and number four maybe or number one and number five in your case but fundamentally they're still being brought up with the same values exactly but they are so different right yeah yeah so different yeah and part of the addiction for me was the same as me i know yeah exactly who's coming now? Yeah, exactly. So exciting. Who are you? And yeah, you know, and I think,

so I just think that drive, you know, two out of four of mine are really driven and two are not. And that's definitely not nurture. That is definitely, absolutely, since the day they were born nature yeah yeah you know and i think it's just you know then i think nurture can fuel that or dilute it whichever way um but fundamentally you are absolutely born the way you're born i think

i agree with that too um i think it's very fitting that you keep talking about nature and i'm going to fight it well all the time we've been sitting here next to this incredible view of the sea just doing its thing you've got like this huge living metaphor outside your window i know and even you've tried to tell the sea to be quiet sometimes it doesn't work no it doesn't there's definitely a hell of a lot of energy. There's every crash of the waves. You can't make us quiet. I know. You can't fight nature, Sarah. There you go. Exactly. No, today I would like you to be really peaceful

because that's what I would like when I get up this morning. No, you're still going to crash against the stones. That's it. That's the metaphor. No, it's true. So that was sarah how inspired are you to now go traveling in fact i was so inspired that i thought i would find it tricky to go traveling but i've got a friend who's um she's just got one little boy and he hasn't started school yet and i found myself telling her go traveling just take three months off and go traveling I

think I just want to do it vicariously through my friend if anyone's interested I doubt any of you are if anyone's interested the doorbell just before I introduced Sarah was my second one down kit so that's two of them home now and any minute now the doorbell will ring again and it'll be the other three I've opted out of school run today. It's quite nice, if I'm honest, especially because my little one's not sleeping very well, so I kind of get them all ready in the morning, get up about 6.45, get them all ready,

and then I always think to myself, as soon as they're out the door, I'm going to go and get back into bed and watch telly, but it never happens, of course. But the idea is there. Every morning, I tell you. Anyway, do you want to know something quite exciting i've got no idea who the podcast is going to be next week that is because

next week because obviously i'm recording this speaking to you now it's now what day is it now oh rizzo what day is it now she's still avoiding eye contact it's now thursday so you're hearing this at the earliest on Monday and I'm recording either three or four podcasts next week yeah last series I did this to myself as well it's slightly stressful but luckily I've got some amazing guests lined up for next week so I will get them all recorded and then introduce them to you as I go hey it, it's nice to have a little bit of seat-of-your-pants action. And luckily for me, I'm not short of guests. Just sometimes pinning down people, the timing, and making that all work can take a little bit of choreography. But hey, we got there in the end.

Hey, there is. Do you want to say hello? She's not really purring. Can you hear her purring? She doesn't really purr. I think she's still looking a bit sheepish. Don't poo on my bed. We're sat on our bed, my bed now. Actually, I'm probably giving her ideas. Anyway, don't you think it's wonderful

to listen to a podcast that begins and ends with such scintillating content? I'm going to stop talking now because I feel I've rinsed any interesting topics I had to cover. And Sarah did a much better job than me of talking about things that are actually worth listening to. See? Doorbell. Told you.

Listen to how long they do that. How annoying is that? I can even count the seconds while they're doing it. God, that's irritating. I'll see you next week. I've got some lovely guests lined up. Have a good week. Bye! Oh, my God, they're doing it god that's irritating i'll see you next week i've got some lovely guests lined up have a good week bye oh my god they're still ringing it what what doing that to my raisin bye I'm I'm I'm I'm

I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm

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