Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 36: Deborah James

Episode Date: July 12, 2021

Deborah James is a podcast presenter, campaigner, writer... and mum to 11 year old Eloise and 13 year old Hugo. It's nearly five years since she was diagnosed with stage 4 bowel cancer. Since then she has found a loyal band of followers on instagram as @bowelbabe, where she talks about living with the diagnosis, her ongoing treatment and is just all-round inspiring. She’s often dancing around - even when she has a chemo pump attached - and generally makes the most of every day. We talked about turning up for sports days, making memories, how much we both love Halloween.. plus the joy of throwing parties in general and what a great life skill it is. She is honest, brave and beautiful and I felt very lucky that she came to talk to me and now I can share it with you. Thank you, Deborah. Xx Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello darlings. How are you? We're in sort of nearly at the end of term time around here I don't know about you if you have kids in your life I wonder how they're all doing because for my lot we've had a lot of sort of hitting a bit of a wall now really they always seem to grind to a bit of a halt at the

end of term I feel like the schools have kind of done their bit of all the assessments and all that and then there's a bit of like filler happens at the end um and funnily enough I haven't had sports day yet that's coming up next week so funnily enough because I actually spoke about that with my guest this week so my guest this week is Deborah James who I've been following for a while on Instagram she goes under the name of bowel babe and I remember when I first started following her, I knew a little bit about her. I knew about her podcast, You, Me and the Big C. I'd read some things that she'd written on papers. And so ostensibly what I knew about her was that she had spent time talking about her cancer diagnosis and also giving lots of inspirational chat and information

to people going through similar experiences. But when I first started following her, I was a bit like, is this definitely the same lady? Because she seems so upbeat and she looks so healthy. And I think that's kind of part of what magnetises you to her, really, is that she's got this spirit about her that's kind of part of what magnetizes you to her really is that she's got this spirit about her that's very positive even in the face of something incredibly challenging so deborah's got two kids with her husband and she's had to raise them for the last nearly five years alongside coping with

everything that comes along with a cancer diagnosis and let's face it this is a fear that if we haven't already experienced something similar this is a fear that everybody has regardless of whether you're a parent just the idea of receiving medical information that completely switches up everything about where your life was headed. So for Debra to have had to stare that down and still get out of bed in the morning and put on her nice clothes and throw parties and dance is nothing short of flipping incredible. And it was an absolute privilege and a joy to meet her and to talk with her.

And we had such a great chat. And she just, she blazes very bright deborah and that's a special thing not to be underestimated by anything and her strength just radiates off her and her mindset and pragmatism and yeah it was as i said just a real privilege and as I said to her in our chat, I'm not going to lie, I was actually quite nervous before we spoke, partly because I'm now approaching the one-year anniversary of what happened last year when my stepdad died of cancer last year, so it's something that's very close to my heart,

the idea of living with incurable cancer. But also because she's young with a young family and these are not easy conversations to have are they it's a difficult topic so I'd like to say thank you to Debra for setting the tone and easing my apprehension about things because that's that's something she obviously has to do with lots of people all the time and I really appreciated it and yeah I'm very glad I get to share it with you and I think it's going to give you lots of things to think about because I mean all these conversations I get to have leave me with things in my mind and thought provoking conversations but obviously this one resonated on many levels. So thank you so much to Debra. Thank you to you for finding us here.

And I'm going to make myself, you know what, cup of tea, white wig one, please. And I will see you on the other side. Lots of love, see you in a bit. Well, with these chats, Deb, there's only two things I've realised that I tend to ask everybody. And one of them is what you're up to at the moment, and one is what was happening in your life when you had your first baby.

So which would you like to start with, the here and now, or going back in time? Good question. Well, I live very much in the here and now, because that's all any of us have, right? So let's much in the here and now um because that's all any of us have right so let's start with the here and now okay because I think that's kind of um relevant to all of us when we just have today to live yes yes absolutely and I suppose we're in quite a significant time for you for lots and lots of reasons not least because you're coming up to five years since

diagnosis and that was I know when you were first diagnosed, that was the sort of, they always give it, don't they, in a sort of how many people reach a five-year point. And your diagnosis was pretty startling, actually. Really shocking, I think. So with stage four bowel cancer, you kind of always think, you know, statistics, you don't really want to hang too much on them. You know that they're old, you know, statistics, you don't really want to hang too much on them. You know that they're old.

You know that science, you know, medicine accelerates forward so quickly that you always have to hold hope. But I've learned over the last nearly five years that those statistics exist for a reason. And less than 8% will survive for five years. And I unfortunately have a really aggressive mutation where a couple of percent might survive so the fact that I'm still here I am so much of an outlier it's surreal but I would say it's I've seen even recently um how hairy um things have become um and as a result a kind of you know I never forget

those statistics um and I think that's that's all it is is kind of I have it hanging over me and in a weird way that that drives every single day yeah it's yeah there's a lot it's really impressive how you've taken that and sort of interpreted it as a reason to be really embracing the here and now but I guess I don't even know how you'd fathom involving that in your day-to-day life and I'd be the same as you I'm quite pragmatic and I'd be googling everything and I think I'd want to know what's there but at the same time you know just an hour before we started recording you were talking about your kids and school things and how you didn't think you'd live to see this bit but does that ever stop being completely surreal I know you can talk about it but no it's like it it's like it's

happening to somebody else so I think even when I was diagnosed it was almost like this this nightmare um that you kept on waking up thinking is this real and then you know you would go back to sleep and it might be I think people have it maybe when it's a traumatic event it's trauma in your life and the carpet has been whipped from beneath your feet and suddenly you kind of um you wake up in the world that you knew um didn't exist anymore and we've we've all had that recently with Covid you know everything has had to change but but the great thing about us as humans is we are adaptable and people say how do you carry on and the reality is i don't really have a choice i mean i do have a choice i could just go um and i have to say like

the last couple of weeks i've been at this point i've been at rock bottom where i've gone actually maybe i should just close the door and walk away from all treatment, because it's really tough. It's so tough. And then suddenly, I don't know what it is, but suddenly you might have a good night's sleep, or you might see a smile on somebody's face. Or the other day, I think I actually finally wanted a glass of wine. I know that sounds really silly to say that, but when your body shuts down, you don't want things that you enjoy. I didn't want food.

Suddenly, I demolished an entire pack of Venetian swirl biscuits, which was so good. And it was about three o'clock in the morning. And actually, in a weird way, that gave me a little bit of kind of, oh, there's a bit of hope, because suddenly my body wanted to almost live, in a weird way that gave me a little bit of kind of oh oh there's a bit of hope because suddenly my body wanted to almost live in a way um and I think yeah it is that balance it's really hard um it is really challenging um but yeah yeah well you know and I think you know before we spoke today you know full disclosure I felt quite nervous about speaking

to you for lots of reasons not just because it's you know quite a big scary topic but also because I've been recording this podcast which is all about you know busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they'll get all done and following you on Instagram I had this thing of like Deborah must think like people like me who get to indulge that feeling of like oh golly I've got to do this that and the other I mean how does it feel when you're looking out to the world where everything is still running on its same normal energy but then suddenly everything doesn't really apply when you've fallen into a club you didn't mean to be a member of that That's a really good question. I think sometimes, I think it gives you a little bit of a...

I've always got quite a hard edge to me, especially when it comes to parenting as well. So I kind of, in a weird way, actually, it makes me think, no, my kids are really important because actually when you don't know how long you've got with them, the reality is actually, you know, people not pampering to their kids, but actually, you know, wanting to be with their children. Absolutely. I actually want to be with my kids.

I weirdly, I might complain about rocking up to sports day and I might be standing, you know, at the back going, oh, just hurry up and don't give up, which I was doing yesterday at my daughter's sports day. But at the same time, had you asked me seven years ago, do I care about attending sports day? I would have said no. And that's really selfish to say that.

But I think I was caught up in a very much a, like, I want my career. This is what I'm doing for my kids as well um but actually they just have to make do their mum's not going to be there but now actually um sometimes making those things um means quite a lot to me because I don't know if I'm going to do it again that's all it is um and no I don't I don't kind of get um jealous or or kind of put out by it. The one thing I do kind of, I don't have any time for is when somebody's saying, oh, my darling so-and-so won't eat like this

and I'm really worried about this. And I'm like, and I think I was, I used to have this attitude when I was a teacher as well, is that kids are really resilient. And I think that actually we don't give them enough credit. And I think COVID has taught us't give them enough credit and I think um COVID has taught us like kids bounce back they they yes they they we have to look after them but at the same time um you know they're more independent than we allow them to be half the time

they have brilliant thoughts they they can do so much more. And actually, the best thing for your child is, I'm the mum that will never do homework with their kids, mainly because I hate it. But also, having sat on the other side of the fence, I'm like, I don't know what these kids don't know if their parents basically give them the homework every week. And the thing that grates on me is still seeing like um parents of children uh you know with kids um of sorry with kids my own children's age of 11 and 13 still like going have you done your homework have you done

this have you done this yeah and I'm like let them fail because it's the only way that they're going to pick up and that's to be, I don't think that's cancer. I think that's just my kind of, my hardened, like, get up, carry on, like, attitude, which I think probably has got me through cancer and certainly kind of gets me through juggling parenting and cancer at the moment. Yeah, well, no, of course,

because lots of things you're talking about, you know, the natural order of things is trying to equip your kids to grow into adults that can thrive and survive in the natural order of things is that we're not going to be there for the whole time of it absolutely but and a lot of what you're talking about in terms of that resilience and everything is something that they'll always know their mum instilled in them and actually when you're talking i was thinking i think a lot of that stuff of going like not wanting your kids to worry too much and going oh I'll help you with this it's probably a thing I've made a mistake of especially with my eldest yeah I think with the first one I kind of the idea of them feeling anxious or worried but actually yeah the older

they get you're like oh my god I've just got to let them just do this now yeah yeah and all my friends that I think regard as really brilliant parents are excellent at that that kind of thing just yeah just going like you're your own person I've given you everything you need to do this can you do it or can't you and then if you can't as you say with the the bits they can't do you don't know what they don't know unless they do it themselves unless they fail and then you give them the building blocks so you can step in to give them the building blocks but it's like you don't want to give them the first step you need to actually let them work out what steps they need help with exactly and then and then walk alongside them rather than just doing it for them yeah and

I think that's the key isn't it it's kind of and trust me like we all have different views on on parenting and none of us are you know I as my daughter will tell you yesterday in an argument because I did go to Sports Day yesterday and my daughter is the polar opposite to me in terms of she's brilliantly creative and, like, Sports Day is, like, just, it's, like, her worst day of the year. And when I was growing up, Sports Day,

I used to love Sports Day. I used to dream about Sports Day. Really? Oh, I used to love it. I'm definitely more your daughter in this conversation. So I was growing up, Sports Day, I used to love Sports Day. I used to dream about Sports Day. Really? Oh, I used to love it. I'm definitely more your daughter in this conversation. So I was there, like, and my daughter, to be fair to her, like, you know, did pair herself up for different activities. You know, she basically came last in all of them.

And I'm there going, oh, well, will you just hurry up, please? This is ridiculous. You need to run faster. Basically, just run. And all the other parents are going, well done, good effort. And I'm going, well, I just don't think it was very good. And then she came back and we had huge tears. She was like, I can never be good enough.

I can never be good enough. So I think, you know, none of us are great we all get it wrong all the time our kids will always kind of love and hate us yes regardless of what day it is and yesterday Mozilla said definitely hated me well it's interesting because I know that you were talking I read something where you're saying that in a way it's sort of post-diagnosis you felt you became a better parent, actually. So the fact you're there at Sports Day, albeit with some constructive criticism to offer,

that's just something that wasn't part of... How do you think of it, like the former life? Yeah, the pre-cancer life was very different. And even pre-COVID life as well. There's been a seismic shift when I got diagnosed with cancer. And I think for me, that biggest shift was actually the loss of my career. And I have then, you know, gone about creating a new, I suppose, pathway or a new career as such. But it was traumatising, actually.

But what it did make me realise is I was so one-track minded in terms of, like, my career came first above everything in terms of... I think it's because, and I know we're going to go back to this question, I had kids young, I hadn't had time to prove myself. I'm always like, I'm quite a competitive, ambitious person. I knew what I wanted to do, but I kind of was never brave enough to be able to take a step back and realise that actually it didn't have to happen now. And I could do both. I think I just always thought,

no, I can only do career. and I think my my kids they didn't suffer they were absolutely fine you know they were always really well looked after but would if you asked them was mummy around the answer would absolutely be no and this is what you're a deputy head is that I was a deputy head um but I I just I used to work in um I was on a really fast track um to headship and when I um and it seems like a whole different world away actually like I haven't really stepped foot back inside a school um since I got diagnosed because emotionally it was something that I'd really wanted and then it just went but yeah I kind of um I was working I was working kind of in failing schools and when you're working in failing schools you literally give your life and soul to turning around those

schools um including your health potentially um but it just meant that you know I didn't I I think I was around with my kids but I think it's about being present and engaging with them and I think to be honest with you I was so emotionally knackered from like my job that I actually probably at the weekends I was there but I definitely didn't really engage in what was going on in their lives whereas now um even if I've been in hospital I can absolutely tell you where the friendships stand between Eloise and so and so and so and so did you know this person today and um I think in a weird way just being present for those conversations has made a massive difference yeah I mean I'm nodding a lot because I'm thinking actually that really sounds familiar for me in the last year as well in terms

of not being traveling as much and I really love my work but I think it's sometimes something you can hide behind a little bit really because especially if you're passionate about it and imagine those failing schools you feel completely engaged and it's involves loads of children and it's their future so you've got these collective you know this purpose yes absolutely but you're right you hide behind it a little bit because I quite frankly I hate that I hate the the parenting logistics of life like I am I'm my strength in parenting comes with fancy dress and generally doing fun stuff um anything that involves the logistics of practically like um for example today today it's my daughter's second to last day. They all have to go in with an item of uniform for their next school.

Who on earth? And having the uniform that you're supposed to get for September. Thank you. Who on earth has brought a uniform for September? Well, they grow those during the summer anyway. Exactly. Wow, it transpires that I'm the only parent in the class of 40 who hasn't brought one single item.

What? Who are these people? Really organised. Why are they buying uniform now? Really organised people. Even to the week before where you panic about having to pay for extra shipping. That's what I do. I'm like, oh my word.

So when it comes to the logistics, my kids are the kids that will turn up with, like, you know, last year's shoes because the queue has gone down the road for getting the new shoes. And I'm like, it's fine. You know, a week into school term, everything settles down and it's all fine. But so I can't do that kind of stuff.

So to be honest with you, it's not I can't do it. I just really don't want to do it. So, and I know we all have to do stuff at the end of the day but I think you're right you end up hiding behind kind of your career or whatever it's but also I don't think I was confident enough or brave enough in my own ability to be able to kind of say no I'm not going to do that I'm going to park it I'm now going to do family life yeah and I think that comes a lot with age as well um I would say like now approaching my 40s um I think just my confidence in my own ability regardless of what that is whether cancer has made that happen

has has been very different and you kind of value yourself I think I value myself a lot more rather than rather than that desperate kind of need to please somebody else to prove your worth. Yeah, it's interesting. When you say your strength becomes the fancy dress and the fun side, was that really something you could really bring when you were doing the deputy headship then?

I did, weirdly, yeah. Because it was kind of like, again, it's like you're engaging on a different level if that makes sense you bring it home you mean or at school bring it home and at school great which is always fun what this failing school needs is fancy dress trust me this is exactly what it is I know that was happening yeah that was absolutely happened but no I think it's yeah it's a bit of both actually but you do you do kind of um yeah you I've always managed to do that with my kids but my kids will tell you that since cancer um yeah I'm like a different person um but I think you know I think also since Covid actually but I think since COVID as a family,

because logistically it showed us that we can actually be together all the time. Yeah. Not all the time. You know, that's a bit too much, to be honest with you. But just, you know, my husband doesn't travel as much. I'm less frantic. I'm the person, I've realised that I have massive, massive FOMO. So I want to be at every possible party.

Life is short. If there are three parties going on in a night, I will want to go to every single one of them. And I find it really weird to kind of, I never recognised that in myself. So I'd just be running around London like a headless chicken just like having to desperately like live and go to everything um and it was actually quite nice that covid has forced a bit of a slowdown in me um i think probably more so than cancer actually yes when all the covid stuff first happened and people would start putting

things up about like it's forced us to slow down I was really reluctant to be like I don't want to say that anything's been taught to me this year because I already knew a lot of stuff I knew I like like the people I live with luckily um I like my job uh there are lots and then slowly slowly you think actually there have been some nice some positive aspects that have come out of a very heavy time like Like when you're talking about the family life, I do like the fact that now I can pretty confidently tell you what's going on in all my kids' lives. And I think before that, you know, if someone asked me a question about, I don't know, does so-and-so, do they all eat vegetables?

And I'd probably be like, uh, we ask them all because I can't quite remember who eats what. But now I'm just like, I quite like being more across those things. Yeah. But yeah, do you think that you're, as a family, you've got, now I'm just like I feel I quite like being more across those things yeah um but yeah it's um do you think that you're as a family you've got because every family as well they have a sort of characteristic of what's sort of celebrated in their home and do you think generally being sort of quite quite resilient and finding the fun yes is this something that's part of your whole family yeah absolutely um I would say as a family like

always before cancer um or you know sadly the thing that I've missed the most is as a family is celebrating those milestones I'm always the person that throws the party um so I love throwing a party like my favorite party every year is Halloween um it's just a bit weird no I love Halloween so somebody said what do you want to do for your 40th birthday because it's in October I said I want to throw the biggest Halloween party ever that sounds good that's probably why you love Halloween as well

by the way so it's my daughter's birthday it's the end of October and I've just brought her up almost like merging her birthday with a halloween party and she got to she got to the point where she was like mum everybody else has like princesses all these things you make all my friends turn up with blood yes i do and now she thinks it's quite cool so i would say during covid the thing that i've missed

is actually those those excuses to bring people together to kind of celebrate and have fun. But I would say that's probably the common theme. Like I got that from my parents. I grew up in a house that was a massive open house. Like, you know, still now my parents are the people, you know, I'll go back to my parents and I'll see, when COVID allows, I'll see 10 people in the garden all drinking rosé because that's what my parents do and anybody's welcome. And including, I've had so many dinners.

I grew up having so many dinners with total randoms at the table. And I love that. I absolutely love it. It was kind of like well of course like bring your friends friends brother-in-law that's great and and I think that's a really nice thing I think it's lovely my mum's the same yeah like we scoop up extra people for Christmas and all that kind of thing and I I often invite people over for here uh they sometimes look a bit unnerved because it can be quite intense can't it if someone casually mentions they're not sure they've got plans come here just go it's

fine i don't need to spend christmas with your family but um we do exactly the same because i hate the idea that people because sometimes i understand like i understand that people you don't have to be the party for it but if you are then invite people you know scoop everybody in because you know it's it just makes people feel welcome doesn't it definitely and it's like yeah why not so your your parents are you part of a big family have you got brothers and sisters yeah i've got a brother and sister um my brother's probably more similar to me he's he's exactly the same already he's like throwing but he's 10 years younger are you the oldest yeah and already he's Already he's like throwing the party. He's 10 years younger. Are you the oldest?

Yeah. And already he's kind of, you know, throwing the parties. My sister's a bit different. She's much more homely and enjoys baking. That does her a disservice, but she's kind of, she lives at a, she can cope at a much slower pace of life than I can. But my family mean the world to me um because I think um that is how I function um because of my family basically

yeah um and I I literally want to share life with them and so everything that I do I feel really lucky that I'm in a position where I actually really enjoy being able to take my mum away on holiday or yesterday we were at Hampton Court Flower Show and I don't want to go on my own to Hampton Court Flower Show. I actually want to go with my mum or I want to go with my dad.

So yesterday I went with my mum and my dad and my husband and my son because, well, why not? No, I'm exactly the same. I like spending time with my family too do you live near them then so we live about an hour away okay but not too bad doesn't kind of you know stop anything um and I just you know I haven't always been like that um growing up I definitely have been you know definitely I was again the the 16-year-old girl who would throw the house parties

and ruin my parents' house and ruin their kitchen floor and ruin their bathroom. I'm really sorry, Dad. And I remember once my 18th, them finding beer bottles in the garden three months later. Oh, wow. Yeah, I was really impressed with my friends to be honest but yeah I think I think you know I love I love that but yeah for me yeah them being part of

everything but now funny enough my brother lives so they live an hour away my brother lives five minutes in one direction and my sister lives 10 minutes in the other perfect direction and did you did your mum work when you were young yeah she still works now so we've always kind of been a family that um it sounds a bit weird but a bit of grafting um and my mum is mid-60s she she um i used to be a gymnast um she still teaches gymnastics and circus skills so one of my love of the circus comes from the fact that my mum is in her mid-60s and still teaches like aerial hoop um that is so flipping cool which is quite cool yeah yeah which is fun so I kind of like get that kind of love of I get that love of kind of um you know fun from my parents but also that attitude of well just get up and carry on

because she's quite sporty as well then than anyone does she do all the stuff yes she's yeah no she does do you actually do yeah yeah she's she definitely attempts to um but you end up um but i think both of my parents are very much like even in their mid-60s they're like get up working all the time and yeah they're you know they're slowing down a bit but um and trying to enjoy life a bit more but actually they've always had to work to bring us up to afford to bring us up um and and kind of I think that attitude has been instilled in me as well you can't just you can't get something for nothing so when when you say you're a gymnast were you actually doing that you mean like throughout your teens or yeah throughout so um I get well I-teens, but I was a national gymnast.

Oh, wow. So I trained about 20 to 30 hours a week from the age of seven growing up. Wow. So my whole childhood was gymnastics. And I was in the national team and used to train at Lily Shore National Sports Centre and was part of the Woking Gymnastics Club and then I kind of knew that I wouldn't make it to the Olympics because now things have changed quite a lot but then almost at 16 you were kind of past it with gym

and I actually funny enough I got to the point where I was too heavy to carry myself like I know I'm quite petite but you have to I went through puberty basically and as soon as you go through puberty I couldn't like it's really hard to lift and spin yeah but it gave me like massive resilience so I was trained by um some brilliant coaches but I um you know there was this real mental toughness with the training that was essentially like you fall off the beam, you never end on a bad beam, you never end on a fall unless you break your foot or whatever it is. But you literally, you got back up and you carried on.

So I think my harshness also comes from that because when my kids go, I'm really tired, I'd be like, well, I'd be doing three hours in the gym now. Which I know you can't compare and I think that's something as a parent a lot of us do we compare like what we're good at or used to be good at or what we were doing as a child and I think that's really bad and I have to stop myself because actually my kids have so many better traits than I do um but but yeah that was that was my childhood well that's yeah that that sounds like something that would absolutely lay the framework for all sorts of ways of

handling things and in fact actually having to experience something you've trained for 20 to 30 hours a week from the age of seven and then having to deal with the fact that changes in your body have meant that that's no longer an option. Do you remember how you felt about all that? Awful. So I remember giving up. I remember, so I think quite a lot of, not children, but yeah, possibly children actually, you may be training for something,

maybe that you haven't made the Olympics or that one milestone thing. And you kind of, you get to the point where you kind of go right um that now needs to be parked and i remember feeling utterly empty because literally i mean i used to go to a school that would allow me um out early in the afternoon to then go and train so my whole life was like based around gymnastics and um I just went overnight and then I I suppose I spent the next um of you know growing up my teenage years filling those gaps and so I went through like a lot of other sports say athletics and tennis then filled it with boys really to be honest with you good choice which is quite a good choice. And kind of, I would say, yeah, different phases of my life, I filled those gaps with different things.

And never really found, like, the one thing that I then wanted to do. But, you know, in a way, I have great memories of gymnastics. And I think it gave me a really good foundation for kind of probably mindset, really. Well, I would say so it's quite unusual i think to to i mean that that way of thinking about things like an athlete is quite a defining thing but i think doing it at such a formative time in your life yeah it's it's another it's like two things sort of like you've got um given very solid foundations to that that way of

thinking um so when you were what way do you then end up being involved in teaching and i mean forgive me so if you're a deputy head does that start off as being all through the rungs of teaching or is it its own route no all through the rungs of teaching so i just went straight from university into teaching to be honest with you i didn't have a bloody clue what i wanted to do okay and i just literally was like I don't know what I want to do in life um and I went to university I basically went to university um and I had the best four years of my life and where do you go to uni I went to uni in Exeter oh cool and um it's actually ranked as still as one of the best places to go to uni and it in terms of student life. Oh, God, it was... You know, and funny enough, some of my best friends,

we still live within a mile radius of each other here in London. And I said to you when you reached out to me about the podcast, so Murder on the Dance Floor was our university song because I think it was released... When was it released? 2001. Yes. So I was at uni 2000 to 2003.

So you can..., well, 2004. So you can imagine, like, that every night, like, when we were supposed to be doing our finals, or, well, not even, when we were just supposed to be actually working. And me and my friends, we wanted to go to every, you know, we just loved life there. And it was all about fancy dress.

It was all about, I'm very much a joiner inner if that makes sense i'm like one of those people who you put me into uh like i love where i live in london like it's a local village and i love getting involved with the local village it's like it's other people's idea of like hell but for me i'm like i like to know like what's going on in the village. And at university, I was exactly the same. I'd be part of the rag society and I'd do the fashion show every year, which is like a dancing show. And I just loved it.

And then your song is something that is etched in mine and my friend's memories because it was so prevalent at university in that time period. And it was just one of those things where it would come on at like one o'clock in the morning and I would just go mad. Thank you. Well, thank you for telling me that. Which was hilarious. I'm glad I was there.

I think it's funny because I'm a little bit older than you. I'm two years older than you. But obviously when that came out, all my friends were at uni oh yeah so that was like it's all part of that same backdrop in terms of like going to visit my mates when I could or you know one of my friends borrowed this massive ball gun I'd worn for a video for her end of uni ball and all this sort of stuff so I was like I was really um quite sad to miss out on uni life because it looked like so much fun um but I'd sort of missed the boat with applying and ended up going back into music so yeah it's quite nice I got to go in a in a small way well I didn't really did I stopped you from doing the homework and the coursework but

no no I love it it was it was just it was just brilliant but the problem is I got so caught up with the uni life that I failed to kind of work out what I wanted to do after uni um and I just I tried a few things um not tried but did um a few kind of um job placements in different things and nothing really fitted and then I um I used to teach a bit of tennis um like I'm rubbish at tennis now but I used to teach a bit of tennis and I I realized you end up if you do something that you love then actually it just doesn't really feel like work right yeah and I thought oh so from a practical perspective also I basically wanted to stay and be a student for another year and um it was at the time where they were offering loads of bursaries for people to do shortage subjects.

And they just introduced, well, they just made computing part of the curriculum. And I, for some reason, I just, I like, I'm a bit of a tech, I'm not a tech geek, but I like playing with computers. So I can't do the technical setup of I like, I like playing with computers. So I can't do the technical setup of anything, but I quite like using computers. And I also worked out it was the biggest bursary. So I didn't need to ask my parents for the money. And I ended up being the only girl who applied for the course. And I think they just had to give it to me, even though my degree has nothing to do with computing. And I remember um so I got a place and I was one of the first girl I would think I was the first

girl in the country there was a couple of us one at Exeter and one at Roehampton I think that trained in in computing which was a great foundation because it then meant that we could just really champion girls and in science subjects and stuff like that, when I then did go into teaching. So it was a really great kind of area that I ended up being in. But I remember turning up on my first day, wearing like the shortest of skirts, probably the shortest of skirts, trainers,

and some like inappropriate top. And I remember walking into a room of, like, utter geeks. And there was, like, 22 boys sitting around the room. And I walked in, and one of them went, I'll pease down the corridor. And I literally, that was the fire that I needed. Anyway, I ended up, like, coming top of the class because I was like, excuse me. Wow.

Excuse me. And basically was like, no, no, no. I was like, you guys may have the knowledge, but at least I can communicate. Yeah. So it was all fine. That's really impressive. I love that. It was quite funny.

It was like one of those moments of like like you know the kind of no no no yeah don't paint me yeah yeah suddenly there was no other option it was going to be like let's get me to the top of that we're gonna destroy you yeah exactly so then when you were teaching so when you were teaching you when did you have your first baby then yeah so I um so my first so Hugo who's now 13 was a very pleasant surprise um so I met my husband um my now husband um Sebastian about a year out of uni okay so we were just all partying in London and my ex-boy... I went to a nightclub to... probably to impress an ex-boyfriend of mine. It was Cafe de Paris.

Oh, yes. So when people have all these romantic stories about where they met their husband... Like, I did meet my husband in a nightclub. And it was sadly closed down. Yeah, I know. Quite recently, right? Really recently. Yeah, it's a shame because it was actually a very pretty venue.

It's a beautiful venue. And I'm thinking when you're saying that, I'm thinking I don't think I've actually heard of anyone else meeting their potential husband in a club because normally people don't really actually, you think you might meet someone that way, but it's quite unusual, isn't it? It's really unusual.

Yeah. And I, so yeah, we, I met him and he's kind of really, he's a local boy, actually, and really lovely. Very kind of opinionated and feisty. And I think he, I can't, this sounds really weird to say this, but I can't walk all over him in terms of like,

which is a good thing. Do you know what I mean? In terms of like, and he's changed a lot. He's mellowed over the years, which is is a good thing do you know what I mean in terms of like um and and he's changed a lot he's mellowed over the years which is which is also a good thing yeah yeah um but yeah we met so I met him at 23 and I was pregnant by 24 um and it certainly wasn't oh did I mean no maybe I met him at 22 but yeah I was pregnant by 24, but it certainly wasn't planned. But it was the best thing that ever happened. Essentially, I remember, like, I'd just turned 24 and found out I was pregnant. And I had, like, polycystic ovaries and never had periods, ever.

And still don't, to be honest with you. And I'm not in menopause. Like, my hormones, weirdly with you and I'm not in menopause like my hormones weirdly um I thought I would be in menopause but actually I'm not at all is that quite I don't really know too much about polycystic ovaries is that quite common to not have any periods yeah I think so and but what I was told about it is kind of um you know actually if you were to fall pregnant you know it would just be a bit harder to fall pregnant okay um and my sister had it and that took her ages to get pregnant and so I you know just threw caution to the wind I think you know and didn't really overthink it because I just

genuinely thought I don't know but obviously you know all men then think that they have super sperm, don't they? Yeah, they do. Yes, yes. I know, because actually I'm very similar to you. I got pregnant at 24, having not been going out very long with Richard. And yeah, so I think, yeah, Richard's always like, well, you know, it happens. And then they feel really proud of their achievements. it's just and then then then they feel really proud of their achievements and anyway so so we weren't married obviously we got married like later um after we had Hugo um because I remember I do remember telling my family and I think everybody was quite shocked because I've never

been somebody who's kind of always gone yeah I want to have loads of kids if you had asked me at 24 I'd be like nah they'll come later because I was like two years into teaching and my husband you know I look back now and you know when when I had Hugo um I was really really young actually um I know it's not that young but I think probably out of your peers as well out of my peers I was god the first by 10 years really to be honest with you um and and the thing it did the thing that I did find quite hard is because none of my peers were having children at that age so all my uni friends went off in one direction which was the kind of London party life and then I went into kind of like you know the mumsy life but then I think I then um found it really hard actually with both my kids because I think I felt like I had quite a lot to prove because I was so young so I like retrospectively now I think oh my god but I think

it's because I was so young I mean I took about four months maternity leave with both children I was I never it's not I'd never enjoyed it I just never allowed myself time to enjoy it because I was so desperate to just kind of have to get back on and yeah and I also don't think it was really an option because the reality is that we were young, we didn't have much money, we were both starting out in our careers and actually we didn't have the luxury of kind of saying, oh, I don't need to work.

I did need to work. It wasn't a luxury just to kind of say, I didn't have the option just to say, I'm not going to work. And obviously I wanted to, but actually needs must as well yeah and I'm just listening to I'm thinking as well do you do you think you're one of those people that feels like they sort of live life a little bit on fast forward like yeah 200 miles an hour all the time yeah I'm picking up on that just a thing as well I know

that when I when I felt pregnant um my mum said to me oh it's good having your babies young because it keeps you you can be a bit selfish for yourself um which I thought I sort of took quite a lot of that I'd like great that means I'm allowed to try and cram everything in and having giving my work a bit of space is good because sometimes when people wait a bit you might feel like everything needs to stop and you know then you sort of give yourself over to parenting in a different way yeah I mean this is you know big generalizations and I'm not sure if that's you know always the case for people but but I don't looking back I'm not really sure I needed that advice I think I probably would have done that anyway anyway yeah yeah and I have no regrets about you know doing

it because actually that's what made me happy my kids are absolutely fine they're really well rounded um you know despite the general arguments on a daily basis which is totally normal absolutely but they um yeah they just um you know but I did do the whole and it is you know we're talking about juggling you know know, I did whatever, what so many people are doing. And it's like, how do you, you know, you do that drop off, you do that drop off. I then went to work. The nursery's then waiting there at like six o'clock,

like going to try, you know, I'm racing out to try to pick it up. And then over the last, you know, 30, it was only in COVID because everybody's always like, well, how did you manage to do everything and the reality is that i had child care like you can't not do it without child care so i had a really hands-on mum um i um and i also had full-time child care whether that was a living person so i've had many different au pairs over the years, many different nannies. And up until COVID, I had a full-time live-in nanny. And it was COVID that changed everything.

Yeah. Which is kind of, because I don't think people always admit to that all the time. And I think that then people might look at, say, someone like me or you or whoever and say, how are they doing it? But the reality is that they do it with a team of people. Absolutely.

And I think there's no shame in that. None at all. I think, like, you know, you kind of do whatever you can that's best for your family to make it work. Absolutely, yeah. And I mean, the only reason, really, in the podcast conversations that I don't talk to, don't generally ask people too much about childcare

is because I think that is just what everybody does in terms of, you know, if're if you've got like a sister that helps out or your mum or a nanny or an au pair or you use a nursery or any of those things we're all looking at what options we have and working out what what tessellates the best with your lifestyle um and I think sometimes it can be a bit distracting and also there's a sort of weird um judgment that can go along particularly with people where they're lucky enough to have you know to live you know maybe in a better quality of life than the average person and they think oh well you've probably just passed off all the parenting yes you know yeah um and really I suppose it was more I wanted to make sure that people had the conversation where it was like,

you know, we're all actually going through very similar things, no matter where you're living on the scale. Obviously, some of us are lucky enough to, you know, have more options. But I think 100% childcare is something that I think I'm always open to those conversations. I think it's really important people know how it goes. And actually, I'm quite normally quite nosy. And I like hearing like, so how does that work for you? And do you do it because just because it's like everybody's got their own thing they've sort of worked out um and there's so many different levels of it and you know i mean i i used to go to childminder when i was a kid that was what my parents did when i was really little and now yeah we have a very like complicated system but it means that

for two musician parents richard and i can have pretty much as much flexibility as we need. But I think it plays into parent guilt, doesn't it? Definitely. Because I think it plays into how you are as a mum when you are around, depending on if you're overcompensating or you feel like, oh no, they're getting a better relationship with that person or whatever it is and you you you know we're all guilty of never feeling like we're good

enough in the roles that we're doing but I would say I would say when my kids were younger and this is obviously all pre-cancer I definitely had that classic um you know guilt over do they even you know am I doing the right thing I'm not with them at all um that's fine does it matter my whole salary was being pumped back into child care because that's basically what happens and but you you never feel like you're doing it well like I never felt like I was a mum or at work I was kind of like in this hybrid of like trying to be both and failing catastrophically I don't think I was failing at all but I think that's just emotionally how you felt and I think we all do that and you're right regardless of like what luxuries you can afford to try to support that I think we all have

those same feelings don't we yeah and I do wonder as well if your job is something I mean I think a lot of people would look at someone as a deputy head and think that probably their home is very well run very well behaved kids but you know you sort of imagine like if you're the kids offspring of teachers they're going to be like no so I I realized in lockdown oh my god I cannot teach my own children I always knew I couldn't um but teaching your own kids is an absolute nightmare yes like it's an absolute nightmare to the point you say that you weren't able to just be like come on no like give me like give me like genuinely give me hundreds of unruly children that aren't my own. Absolutely fine.

Give me my own two. And I'm there going, if you do this, they're like, well, you can't put me in detention. You can't say that. I'm your mum. And it's like... Oh, darling. Like, it was so ridiculous, actually,

to the point that in lockdown, I have two polar opposite children. Hugo is quite self-motivated and kind of just actually got, you know, suited the whole kind of actually sitting at his desk working. He likes a bit of order. He was absolutely fine. I have Eloise who was like, I'm not going to do that. And I ended up just giving up, actually.

And we did loads of other things. But it was such a battle that I just had to just, for my own sanity and her own sanity, and almost the fact that she was actually going backwards rather than making any form of progress, we just parked it and learned how to bake and make stuff um and just do totally different things because it just was so counterproductive yeah i know that's it that sounds especially i think if you're anything like me and spent quite a lot of time being fairly critical of aspects of

you suddenly put the teacher hat on and go actually it's me now i go well i'm gonna criticize you then we ended then. We ended up doing a podcast, which actually was the best thing that we did. Because... What, a podcast with your kids? Yeah. And it was really cute. It was called The Good Stuff.

And we did it for, like, two series. And actually, it gave us, like, almost a focus to do something each week. And it, you know, we put it out and stuff. And it did quite well. And it was just really nice to be able to then look back on that as something that maybe when they're older. And again, I suppose now I am about, it sounds really cheesy,

like making memories. But I suppose people always say you know especially like living um on a ticking time bomb like people always say you're gonna write your kids letters are you gonna um you know what are you gonna do for your kids but the reality is like what I've been doing with my kids is what I want to do with them if that makes sense like so everything that we do um is ticking that box of like memories or forming forming an image of I suppose me and our life together that I want them to remember or the skills that I want them to have yeah because I was going to ask you about that because um I remember right at the beginning of recording these conversations I spoke to Candice

Brathwaite who talked about legacy and it really stayed with me because it's something I've literally never thought about but I'd imagine it's something you've had to think about and like I said before everybody's got to think a little bit about the imprint they leave

behind but is it something that you've is that really your decision then it's just it's the memories and there's nothing you feel quite resolved with yeah I think I think um having a incurable diagnosis it makes you look at kind of okay so if I god forbid I mean you know I've been to hell over the last couple of weeks and I really thought it was the beginning of the end.

And thank God for the NHS because I was literally just rushed in for, I mean, my liver was failing. And if the operation that I had hadn't gone to plan, I certainly wouldn't be sitting speaking to you now, which I find our bodies are amazing. But my body had started to shut down and it was very, very scary. And you don't really have time to think about things

because you're in an emergency situation. I think anyone who's had kind of, you know, situations like that, whether it's atopic pregnancies or whatever, it is a life or death situation so you just have to do whatever you can in that situation right um but I would say um had when I was first diagnosed one of my biggest fears was that my kids wouldn't know the kind of person that I was and I think that a lot of that came from probably guilt about not being present

with them in the ways that I wanted to be all the time not knowing totally what was going on in their life not that that's an issue but I think it's probably my feeling more than anything else and then I think since my diagnosis it's not I don't think it's been a conscious effort but subconsciously I think I've I've you and I think it's also the older your kids get you want you want to infiltrate them with some things that are important to you whether that's certain values that you have um for me actually is passing on my love of parties so Eloise loves to throw a party so she she already at the age of 11 she likes you know setting up the tables and she she knows how to make balloon arches and she she like she genuinely likes to throw a party and I think that's great because like I know that's a weird skill to pass it's

not a weird skill to pass on it's something that I love and actually it's something that I would love my daughter to do um and the same with fancy dress like she she went camping um with her her class a couple of uh weekends ago and they had a theme like it was Ibiza theme and most of the girls like you know put a bit of glitter on her on their face and Eloise got like I mean I have boxes and boxes and boxes of fancy dress like people will come to my house to borrow fancy dress because it just is there and she she basically I found her rummaging through my box and she came down she said I've packed for camping and she had like her regular stuff which was like about this small and then she had like an entire like bag giant bag of like sequin jackets and she said she said I can't remember her exact comment she was like oh well if you're gonna do it you may as well just be extra if Hugo was going camping would he

have a similar bag of party dick gear no he wears blazer and like chinos like the worst way the way that i'd probably infiltrate my son or trying to is i'm trying to make him not become a total clone of his father um which sounds really weird to say but i i'm making him um uh it's not a softer side but my husband and him will go off on a tangent on massive debates for hours and hours and hours. And they always think that they are right. So I probably am trying to instill with him that listening to everybody's opinion

might not be a bad thing. But I also, to be fair, so my son is 13 and recently um this first cycle of chemo um when we were younger we used to do these chemo dances which is because I was attached to the chemo pump I didn't want them to be really scared of seeing me like all kind of wired up essentially and um we did this dance to beauty and the beast but I mean he was like seven at the time and seven year old boys don't really like they don't think about they'll just do it because they're like the mum now um my son and

my daughter was away and I was on the chemo pump and I I said like come come on, chemo dancers are back. And my son was like, oh, does that mean I have to do it? And anybody, you'll understand, with a 13-year-old boy, the idea of them dancing with their mum is like, oh, my God. It's like, hell. Anyway, he did it for me. But I think because he knew it meant so much. And then it was really funny because he allowed me to put it on Instagram and he doesn't allow me to put much I would never put stuff on Instagram with him without his permission if that makes sense yeah yeah same

with my kids and he he allowed me to and then I woke up the next day and it'd gone quite viral and had like over a million views and I was like, I'm really sorry. And rather than him being a bit embarrassed, he was like, yes, I only have to do one thing and it beats Eloise every time. So I just thought that's so funny. The competitive streak. The competitive streak. You know what, while you're talking,

it's actually making me feel a bit emotional because I'm thinking that if you're the sort of person that can turn things into a celebration, you're never going to be short of friends. And the sort of extraneous parts of what that kernel is, is about finding the joy and being able to celebrate the here and now. And actually, the fact that there are people that don't have that skill is actually quite a sad thought, actually.

Because when you said it is no it is a skill I was thinking it's actually like a something you can carry with you for everything um and I think it'd probably be good if if it was given more you know just as a general thing of like how are we going to turn where we're at now into something joyful yeah you know there's so many things that are given credence but actually being able to just look for the positive is an amazing life skill. And it's really hard. I think it is really hard to do. And I think people will look at me and go,

oh, you're always really positive. I'm not, because my husband will tell you at three o'clock in the morning, I'm definitely not. But I think the reality is that you can spiral really quickly and I think whether that's mental health whether that is physical health as well and I think the mind and body really play on each other as well in terms of like you know when your mind is down my body's down and vice versa when I look in the mirror or whatever it is it's kind of it very much reflects and

changes my mindset um but but I think you you can kind of I've realized what happens and I would say like actually even even about five days ago I was kind of my body you know I started chemo again and it's really hard to be honest with you it's really hard coming back to this chemo regime four years on um and just physically like the side effects are hideous like I don't want to you know make it sound um you know I don't want to scare people but I think you know I'm I'm not fresh-faced into this I'm coming back with a knackered body which is why I'm finding it hard off the back of liver failure off the back so I know why it's so hard like it's not exposed supposed to be a walk in the park but I think I found myself after like 14 days in hospital or you know well I wasn't admitted for 14 days but

in and out where you're just doing cancer and you spiral. You spiral into what is the point? And you just get to a place where you are so down about stuff that you wonder whether it's worth carrying on. And then, like I said earlier, it's those little things that can flip you. But I think you don't... It's not that you don't have a choice.

You do have a choice but but spiraling down is so is so destructive and there's no there's no good that can come of it like even if the even if the outcome is absolutely catastrophic there is no good that can come from spiraling down that road. So you can only find, you can only look for the positives, really. You have to find something, because that is what's going to get you up in the day. Because otherwise, I don't know how you will get up. No, I think you're right, and I think as well, again, with that sort of way of looking at life

and the concentric circles that come out of it from talking about things in that way that's become part of obviously what happens under your roof with your kids so they'll be able to share that with people but also through your podcast and all the community that's found through that

and I remember earlier you were saying you sort of forged this new career since diagnosis. Has it kind of surprised you how much of your life has been touched by that one meeting in the doctor's office? Yeah, it surprised me. It's taken me out of my comfort zone in so many different ways. Like, it's kind of, because people because people say oh aren't you pleased that you got like I'm not even joking you they'll say aren't you pleased that you got cancer because

now you get to do x y and z I'm like no I wish it was something else that I know it's a bit it's a bit bonkers isn't it but I think I think it's like great I totally recommend it love it but I think I think it it has forced me to shake up my life um and I think sometimes when you're on especially where I was I was on such a kind of blinker track and I think I would have been fine on that blinker track actually yes um but sometimes you don't have an option and the whole pathway is thrown you know teared up and it's really interesting where you find yourself because I thought I would crumble um only because um funny enough I used to have nightmares uh growing up and I always think it's like a premonition actually my my rear current nightmares was almost exactly this situation where you you know that you might

die and I was used to like think how how can anybody live like that and I could never comprehend it and I just I always look back and wonder whether somebody was feeding me messages I don't know it's very weird feeling um and I you realise that when you are faced with your worst fear, actually you don't always respond to it in the way that you think you would respond to it. Yeah. And I kind of came, not came back fighting, but I kind of found fire that I, it's not I didn't know,

I've always been like a competitive fiery character as we've talked about like probably from my upbringing but it's amazing how it kind of those skills come back and they come back to really help you through yeah um at the times that you need them the most and I think it's the thing that I find really interesting about where I am now in terms of, you know, doing the podcast and doing some writing. You know, I find it's all almost under another umbrella, which is almost still education in a way, you know, minus the nice clothes and everything. But it's almost like a kind of education on on how what cancer might look like and um prevention and championing things which weirdly like almost

fills me with um the same purpose that I got in teaching which was always kind of to have an impact to make a difference and I've it's funny how even four and a half years on I found like a purpose again in terms of I suppose broadcasting in the in the loose sense but um being able to use my platform in a positive way yeah to support others because essentially that is what teaching is yeah and I was thinking about you know the the way you speak in the podcast and your book which I've got upstairs um fuck you cancer um and I was thinking the people that say you know you must be glad this happened to you which is obviously you know look people get say really weird, especially when they're flummoxed by something big and scary.

But actually what that actually is is a massive compliment because you've had to walk into something that's, you know, whatever the scary thing is, one in two of us will be diagnosed with, but everybody's frightened of. And you've managed to make it actually seem like something where there's some good stuff that can come out of it and that's actually just people saying to you that's that's you that's done that that's not the diagnosis that's not any of the peripheral stuff it's your ability to to navigate that and to make it look like you know what i'm gonna shift things and

make this work for me as best i can yeah that's really what people are saying there you've actually managed to sell it you know you've actually managed to make it look like it's got some good stuff attached the thing that I the messages that I like the most well I don't I don't like them because people have been diagnosed with cancer but the thing that I found really hard at the beginning was when I was diagnosed you you want to hope right and I've said this before but you want a hope but you you in order to find hope you almost need to see it modelled somewhere you need to see examples of it yeah um and I couldn't find it because the statistics spoke for themselves so all I saw was the stark statistics that's kind of said you're

not going to make it through the first year and the worst thing is with those statistics is that about 30% make it through the first year so I always knew that even in my first year there was more chance of dying than living and I kind of thought well gosh I gosh, I'm going to have to be my own hope then. And I think, like, what I've then discovered is when, like, every day, and I genuinely mean this, like, I'm blown away by the messages that I get from people saying, I've just been diagnosed with cancer, I don't know how I'm going to do this, but I see that you can do, you know, you can still live a life.

Yeah. And I, like, I hope I showed both sides of it. but I see that you can do, you know, you can still live a life. And I, like, I hope I showed both sides of it. Sometimes I will show the nice side because actually that's the side I want to remember. But in a way, you know, that's also okay because actually if you're facing a terminal diagnosis, not even a terminal diagnosis, whatever, and you think, how am I going to do this?

But then you see somebody else doing it, you're like oh well okay I can do it yeah no no absolutely and I think that's that your book is exactly the companion I would want with me for sure but because you're you're right it's got the tone is just right it's relatable it's reassuring it's not saying this is going to be walking apart but it's just giving you all the tools to say this is there's lots about this is as big and scary but there's a way to walk through it and as you say have a life through it because golly if if you can't do that with that that is that is the hope isn't it that's the that's the biscuits at 3am that's the bit you know you've got to have those bits absolutely i i wrote um another book in lockdown but I didn't like it so I um it's really interesting so I so it was supposed to be out like now actually I think I saw this yeah I saw this on Amazon I was a bit confused because then it suddenly said it was coming out in like 2078

or something yeah which basically means we don't have a date so it's cool it's gonna it's gonna be called how to live when you can be dead So it's going to be called How to Live When You Can Be Dead. And it's really interesting because I wrote it, you know, I had this like really weird like idea that I would just write it in lockdown because obviously nothing else to do. That's totally not what happened. And I did like write, I did end up writing most of it over this last year.

And I don't like it. And my publishers agree with me. It's not the book it was supposed to be. And then weirdly, since things have gone a bit tits up for me, diagnosis-wise, I found a new way of writing writing and I think it's always the way isn't it you end up writing um I don't know with you maybe you end up um you know writing music or whatever it is when when you find you you have a reason and then that that is but you can't the problem is like when you're hunting for that reason, it doesn't happen.

You're like, oh, my God. And then it kind of just hits you. And suddenly, like, last week, I wrote, I ripped up about 50,000 words. I rewrote about 10,000 last week and was like, so much better. It's like, that's the book I need to write. So it's kind of like, essentially, when I was in education, I did a massive research project on mindset, basically, in the classroom, which is why now in schools a lot of kids will learn growth mindset. And I did the research into that, like, 15 years ago.

But then it's really interesting because I know the skill set and the theory, but it's totally different in real life. So the book is about applying the theory in real life. Ah, that sounds brilliant. But what I realised is, like, I didn't... Yeah, I realised it wasn't quite right until I actually was suddenly like, oh, my God, I might die. And so suddenly then I found that fire.

So hopefully it'll be out maybe next year but interestingly enough I kind of um yeah a it's certainly not finished and b I kind of um I keep on going am I going to live to see it am I going to live to see it and then I keep on having this like nervous like conversation with my publisher saying like what happens if I'm actually about to die we're just gonna like you know quickly get it out because I'm like I don't I don't want a book to be published if I'm dead like that'd be weird um and so then I but in a weird way being confident enough to say right next April let's put a book out is a massive mindset step for me yeah so at the moment I'm just in that balance of like finding the confidence to go I'm gonna live yeah well and it also it feels a little

bit to me that you always that kind of peas down the hallway comment you've there's been little moments of those throughout so this recent shift in and what's been going on with your cancer has been the peas down the hallway and you're like actually no I'm I'm putting a book out next April so yeah so things things are happening and I'm really glad the book's taken on a new new life because I think that's a lovely place to put lots of things and you write really brilliantly so well thank you but it's kind of um again it's like one of those things where I'm dyslexic. My daughter's dyslexic. I can't even. It's a stupid word for what it means, to be fair.

It's a stupid word for dyslexia, for dyslexic people, because actually you can't pronounce it. Essentially, so yeah, I'm dyslexic and writing has never really been my thing. And writing has never really been my thing. Like, I've always been able to write, but not, I would never have thought I would be able to kind of, I now write every week for, like, my column and stuff. And actually, I really enjoy it. In a weird way, again, it's like a platform for teaching. So it's kind of like, yeah it keeps me going and how have you found

your community how important has it been the instagram followers and the podcast listeners and all of that massively important i think it's kind of um i find it um i find i'm blown away by the support in terms of especially at the low points like like the support is incredible. And it definitely makes you feel just like you have a big virtual hug around you. I would say the only negative is that because I'm so immersed in a online and real life community, because you end up, you know, in especially in cancer worlds, like you do end up meeting people and some people that I've met since cancer and now some really good friends of mine um the the hardest challenge is I I read on a daily basis and I lose on a daily basis um you know people friends um I read catastrophic stories um I the emotion that I take on board i do sometimes have to learn and i'm not

good at it all the time is compartmentalizing what i'm what people are telling me yeah not um not uh making that my own story um realizing that I can't save everybody realizing that I'm not a psychologist I'm not a doctor um I'm not there to to advise as much as I want to I can't it's irresponsible to but that doesn't stop people sharing their stories with me which I think is amazing and I want people to continue to do that um but it can sometimes be quite a heavy emotional load to carry god I can imagine I think it sounds like you've probably had a few years of that now and can sort of work out when you need to just go yeah I need to yeah put the phone down shut the computer absolutely and I think people assume that I have somebody who does that or reads that,

but it's not as me that reads it. And I think even though my following is small, but it's really engaged. And so people follow me for a reason. And then I think for a reason, the thing that I love though is people do come up and even at Hampton Court yesterday, I had a couple of people come up.

They then share their stories. They say how the podcast really helped them or how my columns really helped them or whatever it is. And actually, that's really lovely and I really like that. Yeah, no, it's really special. Those things, you know, that community is pretty vital really in the connections. I'm conscious we've been speaking for a little while and I don't want to hold you here forever

I was going to ask you a couple more things are you the sort of mother you thought that you would be? Yes, partly in that I am utterly disorganised I wasn't expecting you to say that and

my kids are the kids that turn up with all their missing books and I'm not the mother that helps them with homework so on that side absolutely um I would say I I would say I enjoy being a parent a lot more than I ever thought and I I would say that I think we've probably established I've got this like hard-nosed edge to me and I think I'm absolutely hard-nosed until you take me to the school play and you've got 40 girls singing the sun will come out tomorrow the Annie play and I'm like a gibbering wreck so it's kind of like I'm one extreme or the other with my kids so yeah that surprises me

it surprises me how much joy I get from my children and um the thing that it doesn't yeah no it does surprise me a little bit it's like I actually want to spend time with my kids that sounds so shocked I'm like well there's a nice quote in uh you know the film Lost in Translation? Yeah. And Bill Murray's character is asked about his kids, and he said, you have these children, and then they turn out to be some of the nicest people you've ever met.

And I always thought that was a really nice thing. I think that's lovely. That's great for kids, and I feel like, on a good day, I agree with that. But I think, I would say that's changed, because weirdly, like, I think when they were younger, and maybe it's just because, you know what, nobody likes a dirty nappy and a vomiting baby, do but the reality I think you know as kids do get older your relationship massively changes with them and I think I I did spend spend a lot of their

younger years wanting to pass on the crying baby um so I think I've been shocked at how much I'm now like I'm the person who when everybody else wants to get a babysitter um I'm now the person who's like well come I guess just come yeah well also they're turning into like young adults it's like a different shift isn't it when they're in double figures and yeah you can talk to them about loads of stuff and you know it's more about negotiation than just like you know yeah the plate spinningy bit when they're little. Yeah, it's a very different ball game. Like, you know, yeah, with my son, and I'm like, yeah, you know, we have proper conversations.

I mean, he, like, you know, they both beat me at chess, they both beat me at every former car game, and they, you know, they can, my son can now beat me at any debate around the table. So, yeah. That's great though, isn't it? It's quite nice that feeling like, oh, cool. It's like, okay, you win.

Yeah, exactly. It's a good thing. Well, one thing I wanted to, if you wouldn't mind indulging me with this, I wanted to read to you something that my stepdad, he lived with cancer for a couple of years. And he left a letter. He wasn't really a man of... It was so good with his emotions when he was talking.

But he left this letter. And something he wrote really made me think of you. So if you wouldn't mind, I just wanted to tell you. Let me get it in the right way around. He said, now a quick important homily for you. This is, by the way, what he wants us to read in his memorial. With apologies if I've appropriated some thoughts from others. If you die from cancer, you don't lose to it.

You don't become, quote, a courageous fighter who lost their battle, as many people like to say. No, you beat it by the way you live, why you live and what you leave behind. With the help of a gloriously sane and thoughtful oncologist who recognises quality of life is more important than chemical containment, I think I beat it. Is that something you agree with? Absolutely spot on. Absolutely. I think that's beautiful, actually. I think that's really lovely. I think it is about quality of life

and it is that fine balance. But it is also about how you choose to live in the darkness, how you choose to dance in the shadows, right? It's that. It is kind of you choose to live despite the fact that your body might not want to um but that is a choice um and it's a it's a hard choice to make funny enough like because it takes every ounce of energy and every ounce of fire you can find but that's the only way to win the war yeah no it's beautiful and um i think it's it's so lovely of you to spend so much time

talking to me I've loved it I could chat forever yeah I literally have we actually been chatting for an hour yes and also I'd really like to see your fancy dress collection because I've got a pretty good one I was gonna say I was gonna say my mine is nothing in comparison to yours I'm sure but it's like whenever you're doing the kitchen discos, I'm like, oh, I really want that glittery dress. You can go upstairs and try it on if you like. It's literally like, oh, my God, I love it. Hey, listen, for your October birthday, is it your 40th, you said?

Do you want me to come and say murder? Oh! Yeah? Come on, for uni mates. Oh, my God, I would literally die. Let's do it. I would literally die. Please, please die. We could just come to the party. it. I would literally die. Please, please don't.

We could just come to the party. Just like, you will have to, like, drink at the party and just, like, have fun. Yeah, I'm good at that. Don't worry. But it is going to be Halloween. That's fine. I've sung at Halloween before as well. Oh, my God.

Murder on the Dance Floor, come on. It's a good Halloween song. Maybe that's why you like to go on a lot. It's actually quite gory. The thing is that people can't quite get their head around with me and me and so I actually have like gravestones and stuff right and I have skeletons in my cupboard and I each year I like I collect you mean literally not figuratively no literally yeah well a bit both and people find it very strange I don't think

I've ever heard someone say that completely straight face before. I've actually got skeletons in my cupboard. The thing that people find quite weird is, you know, I'm a stage four cancer patient and then they're turning up at my house and I'm like, welcome to my graveyard. It's kind of like, is she okay with this? Let's make it a date. I'll come to your graveyard. I love that.

Day of the dead party. Perfect. See? Pretty incredible, right? And lots and lots of things to think about. Yeah, I suppose, yeah, just having all those conversations, but I think the bits that really stood out to me were firstly the fact that Deborah's had the confidence

and strength of mind to choose her own path through the process that is becoming a cancer patient and the fact that she's chosen what works for her and has got an instinct about what works so while the rest of us might go into a tailspin and I'm not saying Debra's without a tailspin moment she's very transparent about that but the clearer you know the bigger picture is that she's decided what works for her in terms of making the memories with her kids, how she still wants to throw the parties, still wants to dance when she has a chemo pump. It's incredibly inspiring, strong stuff, isn't it? All of that. Also, there was just that bit in the chat where I said, you know, you talk so matter-of-factly about the fact that your diagnosis means you might not be around for bucket loads of time to come. It just doesn't seem, doesn't compute. And she said, me neither. this surreal nature about what happens when we might not have lots of time left in our lifetime,

which is obviously going to happen to all of us at some point. It's something that's just so surreal. I think human beings are just designed to want to survive, actually. That is our instinct, and it runs deep, and it manifests in lots of different ways. So, yeah, it's given me lots of things to think about and i really just want to wish lots and lots of love to deborah and her kids and her husband and her surrounding family and friends of which there are billions and billions and all her supporters everybody

that's invested in what's going on there so spending lots of love and lots of love to you of course and i hope you have a good rest of your week until you lend me your ears again but uh yeah when I started doing this podcast I knew I was going to have some cool conversations but I don't think I realized how much they were going to actually shape the way that I started to live my own life and change things up and how often I was going to feel emotional. So, yeah, thank you to Deborah and all the women that have gone before with their conversations because I love sharing that wisdom and getting it firsthand is incredible. But, hey, I get to share it with you, which is lovely too.

And now from me and Rizzo, who is... She always seems to find me when I'm talking to you, actually, my cat Rizzo. Yeah, you're right, the one who pooed on the bed last week she actually did it the next day as well she's just the cat that keeps on giving anyway from the two of us uh I send you lots of love and I will see you soon Thank you. On each step with Peloton, from their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in.

Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes, led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton All Access Membership Separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running.