Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 38: Natalie Imbruglia

Episode Date: July 26, 2021

Natalie Imbruglia is an Australian born singer songwriter who’s got 5 albums to her name with a sixth, Firebird, coming out in September. In 2019, at the age of 44, she announced on Instagram that she I’ve given birth to a boy who had been conceived using IVF, and a sperm donor. We talked about the joy and peace that her little boy has brought her, and the new period of creativity that he has also enabled her to have. We also talked about some of the annoying aspects of pregnancy including, as two people who love their food, not being able to eat as much as you’d like because of acid reflux.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hi guys, how are you today? What's going on in your world? I have just come back from, had a nice day today actually. Well, actually, let me kind of contextualize that a little. The morning was really stressful, but can I give a shout out and a whoop whoop to the lovely folk at the London passport

office? You weren't expecting that, were you because basically clever old me we are hoping although it's you know I've managed my expectations with this hoping to possibly go away somewhere during the summer holidays but you know let's see what happens anyway a friend of mine was around and saying oh you know you've got to have six months clear on your passport before you travel anywhere in Europe and I was thinking hmm and I was mentally going through all the passports and your mine was fine your riches was fine but you know what it's like with kids passports they go up in fives rather than tens because you only have a five-year passport bear with me this is gonna get well actually no not very interesting in a minute anywho turned out

Jesse's passport my five-year-old had expired in in January. So I honestly, if that friend hadn't mentioned that, I don't think I would have noticed or known until we probably got to the airport. And then it would have been one of those things where, you know, one of us has to stay behind. Or as my 12-year-old pointed out, Jesse just doesn't come on holiday. Sorry, evil laugh. Anyway, as I was going to the passport office today with Jesse in tow, actually, who was in very good spirits about the whole thing, the tube I was going on got stuck in a tunnel for long enough for me to be 15 minutes late for the passport appointment. And I was pretty sure they were going to tell me that they couldn't see me at all because I was 15 minutes

late. But no, they're really nice. They let me in. so shout out to the friendly guys all of them at the passport place because that was really nice of them and it means that jesse is free to leave the country for the next five years that's interesting isn't it then in the afternoon i went with kit and richard to a matinee of a comedy show called The Comeback, run by the comedy duo The Pin. And it's brilliant. If you guys haven't been to see them before, if you're not that familiar with them, sort it out. It was so funny.

It felt so good to be back in a theatre. It was so nice just to laugh. And there's something very decadent about going to a matinee. It was only an hour and a half long, but you come out and you just feel really refreshed and then you've got the rest of your day and you're like oh I've just done something really nice where I just got entertained for an hour and a half so that was really cool now look I'm talking to you life is good uh so this week's guest is someone I've wanted

to speak to for absolutely ages actually but I wanted also to time it with her music so I'm talking about Natalie Imbruglia. Natalie Imbruglia has just put together a new album and it's sounding really brave and bold and beautiful. And I've always really liked Natalie. Our paths have crossed a few times over the years. And I think you can hear it in our voices when we're chatting that we both like each other, which is always nice. And she did something I thought was so fantastic when she, she always

wanted to be a mother. And she announced on her Instagram that her baby son had been conceived through IVF and she was doing it as a single mum. And I think it's really incredible. And I also saw an article maybe the next day after I spoke to Natalie talking about an interview with Amber Heard, who had done exactly the same thing. And she was saying she didn't realize how radical what she was doing was to sort of take charge with potential motherhood in that way. word to describe it and obviously we all know that there are lots of options but there can still be trepidation and fear and worry about all these things I think actually probably for anybody who's waiting for quote-unquote the right time to have a baby there's those emotions attached aren't there when you start thinking about planning it but I think particularly to think you know what if I'm not in the relationship if I'm not if I've come out the other side of a marriage or a long-term relationship, but I still want to be a mum, what am I going to do about it?

How am I going to see if I can make this happen for myself? So I thought it was just so brilliant, so brilliant. And then there's a beautiful new wanted, loved baby in the world, and this is all good stuff, isn't it? So I love how generous Natalie is on speaking about it and how her strength comes out just in her life choices. Pretty, pretty powerful stuff. I'm not sure everybody is brave enough to make that happen. So, yeah, I just thought it was really lovely and I'm sure you'll feel the same as I do. And I'm going to stop waffling on now because I think it's always better when the guests set themselves.

So, yeah, it's time for tea, of course. You know I have it by now, don't you? White with one, thank you very much. No toys in it, thanks, Mickey. And I'll see you in a minute. Enjoy. Well, we can start, and we can start with the here and now, because obviously I was supposed to see you in person, but you had issues with childcare,

and I just wondered if the novelty of that has worn off yet, for having your first person in the world, first baby. Yeah, the novelty's definitely... People don't tell you about the childcare situation. It's because it's quite boring. How integral it is. But I've thought about you a lot and thought about that you're superhuman. To manage what you manage with your tribe.

I really... I think I'm probably a little bit doolally, but I don't know about superhuman. Well, they say after you've had two, it's just kind of just all the same, right? It just gets easier. Well, you see, I believed that, but actually I don't think it's true. So especially after I had three and they're like, oh, after three, you have another one.

It's just like, ooh. But it's just not. It's all the same. Every time it is literally adding an extra level of peril. Work. Work. Per peril. Work. Work, peril. Yeah. So I fell for that a few times over, to be honest with you.

But do you know what? Nothing is as significant as that moment where you go from, you know, your old life to having a baby. And I wondered if you had that experience that I had when I had Sonny and I felt like it was almost like everything I'd done before I had him was sort of part of a previous chapter and now it gave me this new it sort of invigorated me with my work actually because it felt like I needed to do new stuff. Absolutely because I was I came out of a long period of writer's block so when I was writing for this album, I was pregnant. And 100%, just the focus

and the joy and unconditional love. It's a different experience. It's exciting. And it's something I'd wanted to be a mum since I was a little girl. So it was a long time coming for me. And I think, you know, with the job that we have, it can be quite, what's the word superficial in a lot of ways I think and I think just having I just I had a desire to be a parent also at a certain point in my life because there's something about the selflessness in being a parent is kind of exciting you know yeah um something more important than yourself definitely see this just so know, your little boy is now 20 months. So really, I mean, I just think those first three years are just extraordinary because they go from this tiny newborn

where they can't really do anything for themselves and then by now, by 20 months, presumably he's really pretty busy and starting to chat a little bit. He's not saying words yet, but he's definitely trying. He's got his own language, which I seem to understand. Isn't that funny as well? Yeah. They have a babble and you're like, yep, I actually get what you mean there.

Yeah. That's really sweet. It's been great and it definitely, I would say it definitely helped my creativity if anything yeah so you talked about having writer's block I didn't realize that how long do you think that was going on for at least five years five years I don't know if you know Roddy Hart if you've bumped into him around the traps but he um came down to write with me he's a great artist and also like radio DJ everything and um I literally it was when I was living in Notting Hill and I couldn't sing a note and I kept going should we go for a coffee I kept like trying to I literally

couldn't do it it was a terrible feeling so after that session I didn't try for a long time and I just I just got to it was the last tour which was a covers album reconnecting with the audience and you know the joy of being on stage I mean I've seen you up there doing your thing and I just got to, it was the last tour, which was a covers album, reconnecting with the audience. And you know the joy of being on stage. I mean, I've seen you up there doing your thing. And it's such a great feeling that I just thought, people want to hear what I've got to say. My fans really want me to do it if I can just get over it and find a way back, you know.

So I didn't realise that, so you literally had a session where you just thought, like, any excuse, but you just didn't feel you could sing. Terror. Terrified to try and sing a melody. Yeah, like, just crippled with fear. It's so bizarre. I had to do a lot of work on being able to kind of walk back

into a room with a stranger. And I'm sure there's an added pressure if you fall into writer's block if you're also a known person because you think there's an expectation yeah I think it's even harder because you know if you're insecure and you think people expect you to know what you're doing and then you can't even you're crippled with fear so it sounds crazy now but I actually had to listen to my own albums to remind myself that I wrote those songs and really kind of take that in. Yeah, I wonder where that comes from as well. Do you have almost like a voice in your head telling you,

you can't do this anymore, you're not good enough and things like that? Or was it more just... I'll tell you how it happened. I got dropped by a label after three years of work. They didn't even release it. I think they only released it in Australia and New Zealand and I still don't know why. rocked by a label after three years of work. They didn't even release it. I think they only released it in Australia and New Zealand. And I still don't know why.

Maybe it was financial to do with the label. I have no idea. But you're just kind of like abandoned, dropped at a point in your career where you just wouldn't imagine that that would be the case. And I think it was a decent album. There's great songs on there. But I mean, I just was convinced the universe was telling me that I shouldn't be doing it. I mean, I really believe that.

I think it's healthy to take a break as well. So if you're not, you know, for me it was a time to kind of go and have a little bit of a breakdown. And I was a judge on X Factor for a year in Australia. I got time with my family, and then I studied acting. So I was creative and I did other things but I'm sure it was it was all related to that experience yeah I think um as well it's it's really heartening when you can get back into it because I think I've had lots of periods as well where I felt like there's no one like if I decided like I if I

couldn't find it again if I didn't know what I was up to or just lost my way a little bit no one would be like no no we need you to get out of bed you haven't got that itinerary you know waiting for you for the next day so you almost have to be your own your own cheerleader really and if you say people you know they do that small talk thing of what you're up to but if you just say oh this and that they're not gonna be like no no no you need to get back into this they just take it from you if you're not doing it at the moment that's just what's happening in your life and oh that's you know that's a shame I loved it when you were singing okay well you know tell me about your other projects you feel like you've lost you're your own cheerleader for a lot of it

I think and I don't think everybody really understands that you feel like you're kind of in a trajectory but actually there's a lot of there's a lot of impetus that just comes from you wanting to get up in the morning and do it. I mean, I look at people like you and just think, wow, just the drive that you have. Because it does require a lot of self-confidence to keep on kind of doing that and pushing forward. And I think I've just had bigger bouts than some others of insecurity in that.

But it's been even sweeter when I've managed to kind of, you know, write a song that I'm proud of and then it was like a snowball effect and it's just perspective. I mean, it's just changing, believing in your head that you can do it. Yeah. And I was determined to because I love performing and it is a different thing performing your own songs and your own stories.

Yeah, and I think to such, it's funny because to me, you're so synonymous with being a performing artist and a songwriter, a singer, that the idea that there was actually even that long where you were struggling with it, I wasn't expecting you to say that because to my mind, it's such a good, you know, it's so clearly like your passion. And I was watching your new video and there's so much life

and vitality and positivity in all of it. It's like clearly resonates on every, you know, in every cell that that's the thing that you want to be doing when you, you know, how you want to be expressing yourself. I think more so now than ever. And I just think becoming a mum and that being in place for me, which was something that, you know, possibly could have contributed to me feeling like

everything's not in place for what I want my life to be. It could be that as well. And it has given me that kind of, that peace. So I can probably focus easier on what I'm doing and there's just, there's a lot more joy in my life. Yeah, and I mean, you've alluded to the fact you wanted to be a mum from when you were really little and you're quite a big family, aren't you?

Is that right? Yeah, three sisters. Three sisters, okay. And where are you in the lineup? My poor dad was railroaded. So I'm the second eldest. Okay. But I behaved like the eldest. My poor dad was railroaded. So I'm the second eldest. Okay. But I behaved like the eldest.

My older sister was a bit more shy and I was like, oh, you've got to get out there. You know, I was kind of like breaking ground before everybody else and kind of, I'm going to be a star. Apparently I used to say that a lot. I was a terror. And did you look after the little ones as well? Do you remember having them around your feet?

Yeah. I remember, especially Laura, the baby in the family, I think that we had a very close bond. I think when you're nearer in age, when you're a teenager, it's a bit harder. So I think it was harder for my sister, Michelle, because I wanted to hang out with my older sister

and then your younger sister wants to hang out with you and there's this weird, it goes, I'm sure you know with your kids, you probably your younger sister wants to hang out with you and there's this weird, it goes, I'm sure you know with your kids, you probably see it. Yeah, seeing it a little bit now, yeah, as they get into that next stage. Yeah, so, but yeah, no, I was very nurturing. I always, I mean, you have an idea of how your life will play out.

So it was something that I thought would have happened in my early 30s. Yes, and did you, presumably if you come from that family and there's lots of talk about all of that as well, it sort of surrounds you, doesn't it, about, oh, you know, when there's the grandbabies and when you get married and there's all these sort of markers that you've kind of got in your head as the way it's all supposed to, you say, the way it's all supposed to.

And society. I don't think we really realise how ingrained that is until you find yourself in a situation where you're the road less travelled, which I happen to think is really cool now. But as you're going through it, it's quite intense. And those feelings come up of being different or, you know, or not, you know, I ended up divorced. Who would have thought I didn't, that was not the plan. You don't, you know, that's not why you get married, obviously. And so then that sets you back. And then that, you know, takes you a while to even want to be in a relationship again. And, you know, at this point, it's already way

past where you thought you'd even be a parent. And then you can't find the right guy. Suddenly there's a biological clock. There's so many factors. And I think this is, it's an interesting topic because there's a lot of women out there many factors and I think this is it's an interesting topic because there's a lot of women out there who find themselves in that situation not everybody but some of us and absolutely it's not it's not a choice to do it instead of I think that's an important point to make it's you know you find yourself in a situation what are you going to do with that yeah and it's wonderful that for someone like me there are there are ways and means yeah yeah no I think I mean I've had lots of conversations with lots of my I mean I'm 42 now so there's you know definitely that I've got close girlfriends who've been in exactly the

similar place where they thought they thought they're on one trajectory and then find themselves somewhere else and as you said once you've been in a relationship where you've been married or been very committed, the idea of then having to deal with the fallout of all that and thinking, oh my goodness, this wasn't supposed to be my life. I had a completely different idea of where I was at. You've got to mourn that. Process. Yes, process that. Exactly. I think sometimes as well, if you grew up in a household where your mum and dad have had a really sort of quite wholesome family life. It actually has a sort of little pressure to it, actually,

because then if you find yourself on the outside of it, you feel like you've kind of not done the thing that you were sort of, the thing you came from, actually. So I think you can have your own pressure from that as well. But I think, you know, as you say say when you get to the age and you think right it's time you've actually got choices to make and obviously there's an ideal way to start a family which is usually you know two committed parents and the baby but if that doesn't happen that way then there's actually a wonderful range of other options and I think it's it's brilliant to be able to look at all of them you know and decide what works for you and actually be involved in that decision making.

Can you remember sort of when you first had the idea of sort of going it alone? I don't think it's, I don't think it was necessarily, I can't really say without going too deep into my whole path that I don't really want to talk about. Yeah, fair enough. So it's tricky. But I just, all I can say is that for me, I just knew I really wanted to be a mum. And so that was my driving thing.

So it's just, I just kept going with that feeling. It's almost like, you know, your baby's going, yes, keep going, keep going from the other side. Yeah. And obviously there was ups and downs and there was difficult periods of that, but there was this pure desire to have, to give love to a child. And I had so much love to give.

And so I just, you know, I trusted in that. And that kind of guided me. Do you know the Bjork song, I Miss You? Do you know that song? And it's all, I miss you, but I haven't met you yet. And it's all about that emotion of sort of waiting for this, that maternal love and knowing that that person is out there and you have this feeling of like, they're there.

I haven't met you. I don't know you. I don't know what you look like. I might not even know your name, but I miss you. And I'm going to find my way to getting to you. I don't actually know that song, but funnily enough, I wrote a song in Nashville before I was pregnant about that. Really?

I know I haven't met you, but I've known you my whole life. I can't remember the next lyric. But yeah, I wrote a song and I said to them, I want to write this song about this child that I haven't met yet that I'm going to have. And yeah, it's a powerful yearning. And I don't know if guys really understand for a woman how strong that desire is.

I mean, it's a very powerful yearning in you if you have it. Because obviously it's so completely personal and I don't want to say any ask you anything where you feel like but if there were because I've got I've literally got a girlfriend at the moment she's um she's 45 and she's just starting the same process are there things about it that you wish you'd known or wish someone had told you? I think what's important, you know, on the journey is to have support. And so if ever I meet even strangers at a dinner party and they're talking about wanting to do IVF, I give them my number. Yeah.

And I think, you know, and say, ask me anything. Because it would have been really nice to have that. And I've offered that you know and you see these women well up yeah because there's still some kind of weird taboo around it so I think um support and any kind of support I can give to anyone or just encouragement to to seek that support out I think is is worth think is worth letting people know that it's not something you really want to be dealing with on your own. No, I wouldn't say, yeah, I can imagine that. And I'm actually quite surprised to hear you say you think there's a

taboo because... You wouldn't think so until you're in that situation. I think there's, for a lot of women, it's kind of like, oh, can I talk to you? You know, they come up to me like that. It's like I've become a trailblazer and I wasn't even trying to be. It's funny. It's like having the courage to do that and feeling like I was going to get, I don't know, what kind of something back at me or judgment or whatever. In the end, I've received nothing but love, nothing but support,

nothing but encouragement and um and that's been really reassuring for me um because anything you and I do it's on a much bigger scale obviously we're in the public eye but yeah just being able to ask questions women need to share women need to support other women you know yes I think that that's something I've always been big on in our industry or in life. You know, I love women and I just, I hate to see women not supporting other women. Yeah, no, I'm exactly the same.

So when you put out your post, how did you feel when you pressed the post button and then you just... Oh my God, I jumped in the car and headed for Oxford and was like, ah, what's going to gonna happen and then I was in tears within five minutes because when it hit it was like so much love and you'd be surprised how many people dm'd me going I need to talk to you yeah um you know thank you so much for being open about this. So, yeah, although I don't go into the details of it, I think it's important that people know that it's something, yeah,

to be open about that. Yeah, and I think everybody likes to know that there's happy endings out there waiting for them, you know, and there's no more, you know, a wanted baby has got to be, you know, one of the most moving things really, actually. Oh my goodness, yeah. Whatever that looks like, and I'm quite a spiritual person and I feel like, you know, the soul that is your child finds you and, you know, you're meant to be together, whatever shell that comes in, however that looks, you know, it's such a beautiful way to look at it and that comes in however that looks you know it's such a beautiful way to look of it look at it yeah and that leaves it open to kind of a family can be anything you

decide it to be some people's biological family doesn't show up for them yeah so they have to find their family in the world so yeah I think um I think where thankfully times are changing and what family means is it looks so many different ways now, which is a beautiful thing. Yes. And actually going back, I don't know if I phrased it right when I said about having a baby and I was saying, what I meant to say is the easiest way or the most traditional way or typical way is normally to, you know, a committed relationship and that. But actually, I think there's so many times that doesn't happen my own I have one one of my sisters is adopted because my my mum I'm sorry my stepmum and my dad found

it incredibly hard to have a baby and that taught me such a big lesson when I was 17 and um Dulcy came into our lives because it really really showed me beyond all doubt that family is this it just when that that baby and that child is part of your life it's just oh yeah that's my that's my sister yeah like from the get go and I'm really I'm really glad that I've I've had that experience firsthand because I think it really set me up well actually for everything that's happened in my life with family. My family is very, it's been a very amorphous thing, not just in all the kids I've had, but in my own upbringing.

I went from being a single child to my parents and then they separated when I was four. And then out of that came babies and different things on different sides and extra bits of family. And now it's sprawling, you know. And I got married to Richard, like he had his mum and his dad there and I had like okay well here's a 30 of my family on the other side you know and I think I just think that it's it's been a good good preparation really for for what family can mean actually and that's why I've got family tattooed on my arm as well because I've got you know good friends I would count under

that banner as well oh gosh yeah I mean I've been separated from my family, you could say, since 16 and a half purely because of work. I was working in Melbourne and my family was two hours away on a plane. And that's from 16 and a half. And I was a determined kid, but I had to find family in the world. You know, my parents aren't in a situation where they can jump on a plane and come visit me in the UK. I go home every Christmas, sometimes twice a year. But although I was very independent, everybody needs family. So my friends and my family, like I've found in different countries

in my life I had in LA or my life here. And, you know, you find your tribe. So whether your family's around you or not, you know, some people have a great relationship with their family, but then they also have their friendship family. Definitely. Yeah, you seek it out, don't you? And there's things that, I mean, friends are for life, right?

I mean, especially some of the girlfriends that I have that I met early days of coming to the UK, on Portobello Road, actually, in Jimmy B's Cafe. I don't know if you remember that one. I made some lifelong friends in that cafe. They said I used to hang around there on my own like a weirdo and they felt sorry for me. But I've just got some really longstanding friends,

you know, friendships that I solidified before everything went crazy with Torn and people that are very grounded. Yeah, that's pretty crucial actually. And talking of seeing your family in Australia, so how has it been for you for the last, because I suppose, I'm trying to think of my chronology here, so you must have had your baby just before the world tilted.

Is that right? October 1st, and then I flew home. Okay. And this was before, the first time I flew home with Bubba, he was tiny, and that was, there was no pandemic. Second time, last year, was quarantining and all of it. So you went home last year. You managed to do it.

And did you have to go in the hotel and all that kind of thing? I went on my own. And we were in a hotel on the Gold Coast quarantining the two of us. But you know what? It was actually a really bonding experience. Because I have a support system here and nannies that help me. And I went on my own. And so it was really great to just

be me and him for two weeks um special bonding time alone before we went um to mum and dad's but also great you got to go home and actually see your parents and stuff very much so my dad's a bit poorly so um it's important and I'll probably go again this Christmas so I'm probably looking at another two weeks quarantine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because your mum and dad must be like, are you looking at flights? Can we just get something in the diary? Exactly.

They must be pining to see you, and presumably he's the baby of the family right now. They're in love. Oh, watching him with mum and dad, and he's obsessed particularly with my dad. They have a very special bond. And that's really important really important that they get that time together so yeah and I think you know everybody loves a baby but I

think actually your timing's pretty good because you have this like very happy joyful little person in amongst everything that else that's going on and I think it's just like everybody can kind of gravitate towards that so he probably gets a lot of attention, I would imagine. A little bit. A little bit spoiled. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Everyone's kind of obsessed. Yes. Oh, I know that feeling. That's a good thing though. He'll thrive in that. He'll absolutely thrive. So when you've wanted a baby, you know, very much, and then you find yourself pregnant,

did everything, was it kind of the way that you imagined it would be, do you think? Before you were pregnant for the first time, did you ever dream, have a dream about it, of having, like, a baby in your tummy? I thought I'd be, I found my first pregnancy really tough because I wasn't very good at it. That's what I thought. I was really struggled. God, you wouldn't think that now.

How many of you have got five? I sort of got better at it, I think. But the first one in particular, I didn't realize it, but I actually had something called preeclampsia, which is like this really unglamorous pregnancy condition where you get really, really puffy and headaches and um had swollen ankles my feet like grew a shoe size oh my goodness I didn't want to see anyone I didn't really want to do anything and I thought oh I'm just I'm just really bad at this so when I got diagnosed the same week I ended

up having him which was early so he was born at seven months I was actually quite relieved because I thought oh I'm not just bad at pregnancy then there's actually a reason but um gosh that's intense it was a bit intense but also I didn't know any other way so it's just it just was how it was and I think I think I was quite disappointed really because I thought I was just gonna be one of those women that was you know really feeling great and really good at it and have a natural birth and instead it was kind of complete opposite on every you definitely got to that natural place because I saw you at Carfest and you were pregnant. And you were just like, I don't know, were you staying in a tent that night?

You were totally chilled. Yeah, I think I was actually. Kind of wandering around. You looked like you were breezing it. I mean, but I also saw you come off stage when you'd just had a baby and will perform on stage and just be like, yeah, yeah. I mean. Yeah, but I don't know if I would have had that confidence and just be like, yeah, yeah. I mean, so you definitely got there. Yeah, but I don't know if I would have had that confidence

with the first one, to be honest. Well, I had a dream. I had this dream that was so real that there was a baby growing inside of me. So that was something that I was really excited about and looking forward to. Yeah. So I really enjoyed that part of it.

The last month or so, oh my God. It's kind of intense towards the end of the year. Yeah. So I really enjoyed that part of it. Last month or so, oh, my God. It's kind of intense towards the end of the day. It gets a bit comedic as well, doesn't it? You sort of feel pregnant, like, to the end of your fingertips. Like, just every part of you is pregnant by that point. The acid reflux, oh, my goodness. Mine was so bad. When you're short, these things, like, you know, it's even more intense.

So, I mean, I was just sculling Gaviscon pretty much but um yes it can't be that different depending on your height because surely the gap between it it's not going to be like oh yeah no it makes a difference because yeah everything's pushed up so if you've got more space for everything to push up it doesn't really affect as much acid reflux that would mean I'd have to have a longer but I think I've got more space for everything to push up, it doesn't really affect as much acid reflux. That would mean I'd have to have a longer back. I think I've got quite a short torso. A short torso. I think sitting down I could be any, I could be dinky easily. Like when Richard and I stand next to each other,

he's nearly six foot, but our legs are the same length. So it's my body that's... Wow, you've got a short torso. So did you have the same yeah really bad oh my gosh i find like old packs of renny's lying around for like yeah completely all the time i remember i had to keep doing this thing like stretching my neck up all the time after after eating probably like a cat or something it's just i love i don't know about you but i love my food um yeah and there's this this there's this they don't tell you this bit about

being pregnant that you're really hungry but you can't actually necessarily handle a big meal no so you've got this appetite and then it's this decision of but are you going to have that full bowl of pasta and have a massive acid attack or are you going to control yourself there are a couple of times where I push through and that's times where I was really happy that I was home on my own where afterwards it's just like literally hyperventilating just waiting yeah for the body to recover while you digest quickly please yeah so I'm just thinking actually you've you've done absolutely loads even throughout all this time and trips to Australia, because you've written a whole album, and also it's coming out in September, is that right?

September 24th. September 24th, but the first single's already out. Out. Which is really exciting. And it's brilliant. I find it so catchy. In fact, when I was setting up the tech side, I had to stop myself from...

I don't know. I don't know, I think I went... But do you feel like you've been... Did you imagine you'd be sort of doing as much and still so driven with your work or were you a bit worried about that as it just felt very natural? I think when I got to the place where I stopped singing, stopped music and allowed myself, and I think it's a

courageous thing to do, but I encourage anyone who gets to a point of disillusionment to take a break away from and not just carry on for feeling like this is my lot, this is what I do. If you stop believing in something, especially as an artist, it's okay to find other creative channels and do other things. Because when you come back to it and for me to make the decision that I was going to find a way over this writer's block and get myself back on stage singing my own stories and then to do that there's a confidence in that and I think just with age and wisdom you know what it's like you just get to you as the years go on you just feel more relaxed about you don't care so much what people think.

You do things more for yourself and for the pure joy of it. It's not about destination. So I've just had such an incredible experience writing this album and then recording it in lockdown, which was recorded in my barn here where I'm sat now, with my riot. And we had to figure out a way to do that. That was such a joy. In fact, we had the luxury of more time because of lockdown. We could take longer to do it. And you know, when you just feel so good about the

work that you've done, it really doesn't matter. Like I'm not kind of going, oh, whatever you're going to think. Like I'm so elated about it this the songs are my truth and I feel so good about it that I'm like it'll it'll find its place it'll find who's meant to find it the people that are meant to connect with it will I just don't sweat it anymore yeah yeah I mean I just it takes too much energy yeah but actually everything you're, I'm doing lots of furious nodding because I think that so much, certainly for me in my 40s, has been so far all about that feeling

when you said about just doing things because it's bringing you happiness and you feel excited about it. And actually the process of putting it all together is the fun bit and is the joy of it. And it'll find its right place. I feel like that about the work I do as well it's it's actually completely it's so liberating it's yeah the older I've got the more

I'm I'm present in the now like people ask me about two months time I'm like I really don't know even if I plan a holiday I don't think about it till I'm literally on the plane because I'm just my life flows better if I just concentrate on the now and live in the now. And obviously I do work hard. I'm a perfectionist. Anyone who works with me knows that. So I'm very detail-oriented with how the song should be.

But, you know, when you get to that point, and I'm sure you can relate to this, where you finish it and it's almost like letting it go and then it's not for you anymore. Then it's like for the audience. So there is a sense of release and relief in that that now it's kind of like the fun bit where you get to perform and everything but you're not so focused on kind of the perfection of how the song should be and all of that yeah yeah yeah no you've signed that bit off now so you can just enjoy the next bit I kind of like all the phases though I think they've got they all give you a different kind of

I kind of like all the phases though I think they've got they all give you a different kind of outlet or some kind of satisfaction yeah yeah and also I always feel like when I've got to the end

of each stage I'm like I'm in the right head space for the next bit it's like okay I'm now really sort of changed gear like okay yeah

now I'm ready to do the live thing and I'm excited about that but when I'm doing the recording the idea of going live I'm like oh I don't want to think about that now

I just want to focus on I don't care what I'm dressed different it's different isn't it even how you sing the song like how you approach it is a very different thing I've been doing that now because I'm obviously you know learning the songs again for live and I'm like oh my gosh like it's almost as if I didn't write them and you're like you know the breathing and all of that because it's a completely different thing isn't, the way you approach things for live? Yeah, and I always think when you've toured a song for a while, it's like it grows legs because you're like, oh, okay,

now it's sort of taken on a slightly new dynamic or it's something that's shifted and it's almost got, it's like it's next life. Yeah, you phrase things differently or, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Or you slightly change it up naturally. Yeah. But I loved your kitchen disco.

Oh, my God. You got us all through so much. I have to thank you for that. And the outfits. Well, thank you. But I did find it quite laughing because it really was a very barking response to a pandemic in a lot of ways. But you know what was one of the best things was actually the distraction of it as well. Because I think, you know, everything was so intense.

And I actually, I had zero creativity. I couldn't think about any new ideas, any songwriting, nothing. My brain just sort of seized up. So performing became this really good outlet for a lot of that tension as well. Of just, it doesn't matter if there's nothing you know I'm not writing new songs by the day I'm just going to focus on learning the lyrics to a Prince song and then working out what to wear and getting some new tinsel curtains and just just giving myself a distraction it was very important to me that I think but I also think

that's good for the next thing you write because there has to be those as as a writer as you know there has to be those periods where you you're just living or performing or whatever to to inform that next project I think those gaps are really useful they are and actually the longer that I think as well when we first got the news about everything in lockdown and you know you sort of taking it day by day and the sort of anxiety of that, I think I didn't really want to give too much space in my life to the sort of lockdown time. I didn't want to be like, oh, I learned this about myself or it's had that significance. I was like, you know, I didn't really want to give the pandemic anything, if that makes sense. But actually it's now been such a long time and so defining.

I feel quite differently now. I feel like, no, it's actually worth just taking stock a little bit and letting the dust settle and seeing what did surprise you about how you, all of us actually, effectively coped with being in a sort of traumatic situation because it is crazy isn't it yeah I mean it is it is crazy it does feel slowly like we're coming out of it but not completely yeah we are coming out of it but still it was like a collective yeah a sort of traumatic event really especially the for me the thing that bothered me so much about at the beginning

of the bit I couldn't get my head around was how abstract it was it was like the whole world globally we're on this this is all everything has to stop and and do things differently but you couldn't see where it was coming from so you don't you could go and see your mum but you might be carrying something you don't know and when you you give her a hug, that might pass. Just all this sort of invisible, abstract nature. It's hard. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. I found the first lockdown quite hard.

Me too. I think there was a lot of collective fear going on. Yes. You know, I think once we got the hang of it, things got much, much easier for the second one. But yeah, what a crazy, sometimes I imagine kind of skipping ahead to years from now, talking to our kids about it and, you know, yours have lived through it, but mine might probably remember it. But just what an experience to have lived through.

Yeah, yeah. I just never would have thought we'd have to deal with something like that in our lifetime. No, and also for you, you had a very little baby through that. And I think for some people I've spoken to when they've become a new parent around that time, for some people it tapped into lots of anxieties as well about that and about all the stuff that, you know, the casual stuff you can normally find yourself part of, whether it be baby groups or going to the cafe or anything casual that you can put in your day just to get out and about or see a friend or have someone around um so I guess there must be lots of people who are still you know being introduced to to your small person yeah well that's the thing I

well the good thing was he was so little that it wasn't quite that stage yet. But for you, did you not miss out on sometimes feeling like you could go and see people? Or were you quite happy? I suppose if you lived somewhere a bit more countryside. I think I was, I don't know if this is just because of the age that I am to do it, but I was quite happy to, I'm a bit of an isolate. I don't know if you know that about me, but I'm pretty, I go through phases of like kind of hiding away anyway.

So more than most people, I think I managed okay. I mean, I moved out to the countryside and I float around in the middle of fields and can go days and days and days not seeing people without that being a problem. So I don't know if that sounds weird. It sounds like you're quite well prepared for a lockdown of all the personality types yeah um I do okay and then and I think that there was enough interaction there was enough like if I needed there were people I was in a bubble with

that I was able to see oh yeah of course that'd be true yeah yeah but the good thing was being able to work from home and be able to go next door and get a hug yeah and have that'd be true yeah yeah but the good thing was being able to work from home and be able to go next door and get a hug yeah yeah and have that in in the middle of the day or just tell my producers I need to go and get a hug I'll be right back you know that was that was great and well actually if you are someone that's used to your own company did it feel like a big shift when suddenly it's not your own company anymore because that's something that happens when you've got a baby. Suddenly you're not, you've got someone that comes with you

like literally when you go to the loo and like everything. I think what's good about it is the part of my personality that would sometimes, you know, go into dark places. Like that just doesn't happen. It's different, you know. Like there's somebody else that needs you. And I think that's been a benefit because I can't indulge those, that side of myself or that, you know, where I can take things too far and hide away or, you know, not be able

to get out of bed, which, you know, it's just, that is the joy as well when it's just not about you. And not to say it's not valid to have those days and need those days, but it's great to – it's a distraction from that in a really good way. Yeah, yeah, and purposeful as well. And I know that a while back I spoke to an artist called Carrie Reichardt and she was talking about times when she's she's very open about talking about her mental health and she'd had um big struggles with depression and she said that one thing she'd found really helpful like a tip someone had given her was to find a cause

bigger than yourself and it just made her sort of took herself out of indulging that thing and she I mean she actually already had kids so for her this was probably all linked to hormones as well. Yeah, and other things. But it really resonated with me. And I thought, actually, I think that is a really good way of looking at it, this thing of finding a cause bigger than yourself, because then you become part of something.

And having to be present and, you know, help with your, you know, get your baby. For a child. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, exactly. You don't have that time in the same way if you know it's obviously all very bespoke to the person and but I think it can be that that way of just yeah lifting yourself out of that stuff and just being like the day's begun he's waiting for me what we're gonna do exactly I think it's the nature of the

mind as well I mean too much idle time thinking is not healthy for anyone. I mean, it's like, because the nature of the mind is to question and then it goes down these rabbit holes and, you know, so being busy is a really good tool. And like you touched on earlier with the job that we do, we have to create our own schedule. Yeah. Because otherwise there is too much time for the mind to kind of, you know, so I think I learned early on about, you know, whether it's when you're in a creative process about booking writing sessions and showing up and just, it's just about creating some kind of structure because we have a very unstructured kind of job. We have to bring the structure into it. You seem very good at that as

well. I think, again, I got better at it I think um I've definitely made mistakes and a couple of times I've tried to go back into work things I think actually very maybe too soon after I've had babies I mean that's an incredibly personal thing but just for me I know that I've sometimes done things and then found myself feeling like I'm not ready for this I don't think not so much writing not the the creative side, but more performance-led things, you know, just finding yourself putting on your heels and your makeup and just thinking this is, and I did like a video when my second baby was 10 weeks old

and I know people do that kind of thing and they're fine with it, but I just wasn't really. I just felt very, like, yeah, like an egg with its shell taken off. I just felt very very very vulnerable um yeah but I suppose well how did you find the creative side so did you were you surprised at how smoothly I mean it sounds to me from the outside looking in that that writing the album and finishing all those things off all tessellated quite nicely with still having a you know a young child yeah you know I was working really hard but there was just a sense of peace about the whole thing I'm really and I guess it's

down to that journey of for so long um you know wanting to be a parent and finally getting a chance to do that um I'm sure it freed up a lot of my headspace. I don't know. I just know that I've had projects and albums where I've been working and it's felt like kind of, you know, swimming upstream. And this one felt like I was in flow. And both times I've kind of approached it the same way. I just think also in life sometimes things, even if the product is great at the end of it, some things are more of a struggle than others. I'm so grateful that this one was just joyful and, you know, hard work, but just I felt like it was just flowing.

Yeah, I'm getting it. But that word you use, peaceful, is a really good one because that's actually what I'm getting radiating a lot from you at the moment, which is lovely. And I think it's also about, you know, sort of right thing at right time and serendipity. And I guess you get to this point in your life and firstly, with motherhood, you've been able to, you know, maybe give a bit of perspective

so you're not focusing so much on the pressure of the songwriting and what kind of an artist. Like, no, no, I've got this time. I've got the childcare. So I've got to make this count. Let's just get this done. And then I get back to my hugs. But also having a good team around you, actually.

Finding the people that actually give you that space and don't make you feel like that uncomfortable pressure. It just, I think it's a lot more nurturing, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah. There's a lot more organising that goes into it now. And I can't even imagine how the touring thing is going to play out. We might have to have a little chat about how you do that. Like, how do you tour?

Well, you can do, you've got options. I mean, but it's up to you, really. It's what works for you. I mean, for me, I think when... Have you tried lots of different ways of doing it? Well, I suppose the fundamental is you you take them with you or you don't that's like that's the first the first decision that needs to be made um and I've done that both ways and for me I find when they're when they're little like babies

I would definitely I've taken them with me and actually the tour I did when Mickey so that's my last baby uh he was about five months and I just loved it I loved it loved it loved it but I was touring with an orchestra and the whole thing felt very wholesome and okay sound checks had a harp and you know he was in a Moses basket but once they hit like basically once they're mobile, I find it easier not to bring them because for me, divvying up my head between motherhood roles and all the things that come with it and focusing on work, I was just struggling with it. So I just felt like it was easier just to be a bit selfish with my work and take that for me and go and do what I needed to do

and feel like I'd done a better job and then come home again. But I just make my trips short. So I'll get the last flight out or the first flight back if I'm travelling or get trains up on the day or whatever it is to make sure that I'm home when I need to be home. So the longest I've been away I think is maybe like 10 days, I think, since I've had kids. But it's incredibly personal because I remember going away,

one of them was tiny, and I was in the middle of the night the night before I left feeling terrible about being away for, I don't know, three nights, let's say, when they were still breastfeeding, I think, and I went online and I was looking things up and all you find are these forums. Don't go anywhere. If you've ever been anywhere near it, don't go anywhere near things like Mumsnet.

It will fill you with guilt. And it's all these women going, well, that might be all right for you, but personally I never could. I could never leave my baby. But if you're going to leave your baby, then I wish you all the best with that. So it just did not help. So do what works for you. I get the impression you've kind of sussed that out already,

but I think it took me much longer to kind of work of work that out yeah I didn't read any any books I just thought I know my personality and I'll lock into an idea and then someone will give me another idea and so did you look was that the case from day one you just didn't oh yeah I was I made a conscious decision I'm not going to read anything I I spoke to I got advice from, you know, lots and lots of people. And, you know, yeah. So I was talking to people, but I was taking what I wanted to take and letting go of what didn't resonate with me. Because you learn very early on that there's not one way to do it.

Yeah, yeah, that's very smart. And also Google is just, you don't even know where this take is coming from, you know. But if you go to people specifically, you'd be like, okay, I know exactly your perspective on this and I know that your advice comes from a solid place. Yeah. So I can rely on that. Yeah, so I'm a bit anxious about that side of it, but like you, it'll be trial and error. Yeah, and you don't need to race ahead, you just take it as it comes you know who knows what's around the corner for any

one of us really with all of it you know um and we've all just had you know obviously a big lesson in that when you know i've literally had you know work in the diary and then it's like oh no you're not going anywhere you're staying in your house for for 10 weeks um but i think you know did you have to cancel anything? Oh, loads of stuff, yeah. I mean, I didn't have anything booked in, luckily. I was actually going to Australia, funny enough. Oh, really?

For a tour? For a tour. I was going to do something called the So Pop Tour, which was all around Australia and New Zealand. And I was quite looking forward to it. It sounded really cool. Richard was going to come with me. It was going to be two weeks away,

so I was a bit nervous about that, but I was geared up for it, and I had lots of tips of where to go and places to visit and all this stuff. And then, yeah, everything. I had a very busy work year. I was about to hit nonstop touring from spring to the end of the year. So everything was very, very different. But I think, you know.

You adapted quickly, though, and put your creativity into other things. And the disco thing, that would have been a lot of organising. Not so much. I mean, I, no, not really. Richard did the tech side. I, you know, did the decorating and got the kids ready and we'd choose some songs. Nah, it's fine. Did they love it?

Yeah, they did actually. I think it was funny. They seemed to. I never really sort of asked them directly. But I would always just say, we're going to do a disco on Friday, do you want to come? And, you know, see who turned up really. And they used to make me laugh because quite often they'd say,

oh, no, I don't want to do it tonight or it'd be six o'clock and we'd always go live at half six and they'd be like, like my nine-year-old, he was, I don't know, seven when it started, he'd be like, no, not coming tonight. And I'd go, okay, fine. And and then he turned up at like 25 past six dressed in a sort of like monkey head and you know yellow gloves and a silver suit and he'd be like oh okay you you have come so I think it was sweet and actually my eldest I kind of said to him you don't need to do this anymore if you don't want to I think Mickey's all right now because at the beginning

Mickey was crawling he was 14 months and then by the end he was walking and I said I think I'm okay now and he still turned up and I thought maybe you kind of like it too that's sweet that's sweet yeah it it just gave us something to do as I said before really it's like that really was the main thing I didn't I didn't feel particularly creative if I'm honest but I did I did find a way to distract us yes that was quite handy well Well, we loved it. Thank you. Yeah, no, I think, you know, it's funny that all the little shoots from the seeds that were, you know, sown last year, they're the things that kind of I've ended up doing.

Like all my, everything I keep myself busy with now is like a new project. Oh, really? Yeah, I think so, yeah. Okay. Yeah. That's exciting. Yeah, it's been nice. So podcasting and are you going to be touring this year?

I've been doing bits and bobs, but my own tour won't be until next year now, next spring. Okay, yeah. Yeah, just going with the flow. I mean, you know what it's like with our work anyway. You have to be quite used to the fact that everything can change at the last minute. I know, we're kind of planning things,

but we still don't know what's really going to happen. I'm the same. Have you had a gig yet? Have you sung live since? No, well, I just announced today there's going to be a Lafayette gig happening. I saw that. So is that your first? That's my first. Wow. That's going to be great. Oh my goodness. Yeah, it'll be great. So that's the first gig in how long? Not to try and scare you, but just to be curious. Years. Wow. More than three. More than three.

Well, you know, I actually think I had a gap like that over three years after I had my first baby. And I was really nervous. And as soon as I walked on stage, I got such love coming back from the crowd, just, you know just the excitement, that all my nerves just evaporated. And I'm sure for you it's going to be even more so because you've got a new album and all this new stuff that's come out. And I just think, yeah.

There's a lot of songs that'll be great for touring, and the bands all heard the album and they just love it. So, yeah. I think when you know you've got a body of work that leads it, because sometimes I make albums that are a lot of mid-tempo songs and can be a little bit harder for the tour. And also the beauty of having, you know, a few albums to choose from is great for a set.

But this one, there's just so many songs that will be fun to play live. So just excited about that yeah and i mean can you can can you kind of believe that you're here with this new record having gone through the writer's block and all of that which sounds like something that's very very tricky to deal with actually and probably something that at the time you probably didn't even tell many people it was running that deep because... I don't think I really admitted it. I mean, even the whole campaign I did for the covers album,

you know, I wasn't kind of being honest about that's what was going on. It's not something you kind of talk about whilst it's happening. It's easier to talk about it in retrospect. Yeah, absolutely. I can see how... Look, I think, you know, you get knocks in life and it can be hard and it can affect you. It's not like when you're a kid and you're invincible and, you know, you get knocks in life and it can be hard and it can affect you. It's not like when you're a kid and you're invincible

and, you know, nothing will stop you. I think as we get older, we're a bit more fragile and things, you know, are harder. But like I said, it makes it so much sweeter when you can overcome those things. So for me, it's like, yes, there was a really hard period, but I just focus on the fact that I, I guess, had the courage to kind of overcome it.

Yeah. And the result has been so much sweeter. And I'm just really enjoying it. And I think the key for me is to keep writing because I don't want to. I probably, in the back of my mind, I'm worried if I stop, you know. But can you- I do tend to have two bigger gaps between projects, Sophie. I could work on that.

Oh, don't worry. I'm the same. I think gaps are good. They get kind of given a bit of a bad rep, but actually, as you said before, they can actually be really, really fruitful. And I think, I suppose, you know, trying to get at before as well, you've obviously got all the new music, but also you're here with your baby, and do you think you think you know there must have been times when you thought that that this

day might not come oh god yeah absolutely and I just didn't couldn't imagine life without that experience for me I was like I just couldn't see it in my mind's eye. I couldn't relate to it for me personally. It was that important. And that made it easier for me to keep taking steps, investigating, thinking about, you know, how it could be because it was just that important to me. And it probably did, I guess that yearning to be a parent probably did have an effect on my focus with my work. If I look back now if you think about the timing of everything that was probably weighing on me heavily as well so I think the combination of those two things happened at the same time you know I guess there's a link there

as well yeah you know just the worry well and also but when you're being creative it all comes from yourself anyway so it's not like if you if you're not feeling a hundred percent resolved then yeah it's got to be it's completely they're completely linked aren't they um and that is there's only one question I always ask people which but it's just you the sort of is I suppose it's broad um I'm just don't think how to phrase it sorry it's okay are you the just trying to think how to phrase it. Sorry. That's okay. Are you the sort of mother that you thought you would be? Yeah, I think I'm a better mother than I thought I would be.

Because I'm a lot older than I was, you know, when I would think about that. I was going to be much younger. And I think that I'm a lot calmer. And it happened later for me which was not the plan I think I'm more patient when I was a kid I used to have this fear that I was going to be overprotective and you know a little bit like suffocate the child with fear and anxiety and worry that something would happen to them and I think I've surprised myself at being um more more relaxed and I think you see that in your child don't you definitely um and so that's been quite a nice reflection back to see that that those things aren't really there and that's probably just because this happened a lot a lot later in life so yeah well I think it's funny because you spend a lot of time thinking as well about about the you know what kind of a mum you want to be but actually your kid teaches

you a lot about what they need from you as well and oh yeah I think that's something that people take for granted is that you know we're here to kind of set them up in life but they're not our property not you know it's separating those two things and going yes you've got to protect them but it's quite cool when you realize they're teaching you so much about yourself yeah yeah and and what and probably for you having so many different personalities they probably all need a different thing from you I would imagine no you're completely right I feel like I'm a slightly different mum with each of them really um but I think that thing you said you know a way back in our conversation about that's who they are the kernel of who they are kind of finds its way to

you I really I really get that and I think also it kind of really surprised me because you spend so much time expecting this baby but then when you have that when you see them they're like it's like you see the whole person they just happen to be a baby when you meet them yeah does that make sense yeah no totally I'm very spiritual so I think on a soul level so for me it was always something that from a very young age believed in reincarnation believed you know I've been here before and all of that had a sense of it um and I don't expect that to be everybody's experience but certainly for me with being a parent it's something that has helped me um to think about it in those terms and you know children that have been here before that are like really old souls you know you just um yeah so it's trippy yeah yeah it is um well just to sort of um

let you go because i know that um you've been very generous with your time and we also have that silly probably about half an hour trying to actually work out how to be that we could actually speak to each other and record it um i'm glad that bit wasn't recorded yeah me too just going incredibly boring um you know for for anyone that's out there that has is about to start on any journey to motherhood image which way they work it is there is there anything that you think has been a really good bit of advice that's helped you um with where you're at follow follow your intuition follow your heart don't listen to anybody else um I think everybody knows what's best for them and um you shouldn't let anything deter you or frighten you from from from doing those things you know whichever whatever parenting

looks like to you I think you know follow it wholeheartedly and reach out and try and get the support that you need. I probably tried a little bit too much to be a soldier. And so I guess I'm always very open with people about, you know, answering any questions. Obviously, don't talk about it in the public eye, but I'm just saying, you know, if ever people have approached me at parties or meeting people through friends, I try and be as supportive as I can because it would have been nice for me to have that so yeah no I also think the thing about not reading stuff and making that work for you is a really good idea actually I think sometimes we're in such an age of information that you can probably go down lots and lots of rabbit holes with all that people are very you know quick to tell you about

breastfeeding formula be opinionated about this that and the other and there's just not one way it's just not one way just do what feels right for you and you can't go wrong yeah and you know kids need love first and foremost that's what they need absolutely and actually I think if you can't really we have to accept that when you're raising someone you're gonna screw things up anyway that's just like complete given but I always feel like if you yeah raise a kid in a loving safe home then you've got you can't actually screw up that that badly well exactly and I think I think we're all um made better from our broken bits you know if you think about you look back at your history with your family

or my history with my family and there were things that you could consider to be. And you're like, well, you know, everything that's led me to be who I am is you're a product of that. And they're all things that have made me great. So there's not really any bad bits. Yeah. There's not really any bad bits. Has it surprised you how strong you've been to

make such big decisions for yourself like this? Yeah, I do. I often, I remember thinking, looking at my niece when she was 16 and a half and thinking, how was I living in Melbourne in an apartment on my own working on television? Still now that kind of freaks me out. And I'm like, how did my parents let that happen? Well, they didn't have a choice. I was going to run away. I mean, I was like, I'm doing this. I'm going to be on this show. You can't stop me. I mean, the way I spoke to them was awful. And I think some of us just are born, I just had this, I'm a bit of a soldier. I just have always had that kind of independence. And so I don't think it's

necessarily because my parents weren't providing themselves for me I think it was just how it was meant to be maybe because of the things I was going to do in my life and I needed to be self-sufficient because I was going to be living abroad and you know so it served me very well yeah no I think because when I remember when um I first I first knew what was happening with you and heard you have a baby, firstly, I felt so incredibly happy for you. But also I just was really impressed. I just think there's something so cool about anyone that just, you know, takes their destiny into their own hands.

Honestly, I think it's absolutely wonderful. And look at the magic that comes out of it, you know? This new person is in the world. It's like, it makes me emotional just thinking about it. I think it's so beautiful. Well, because I remember you had your little one and you'd come off stage at Blenheim Palace and I was dying to tell you.

I was like, I'm pregnant. Because nobody really knew at that point. I was so excited. Yeah, it's lovely. It's just been great. It's just wonderful. It's a really lovely thing and I think it's so inspiring I really do I think I think it's like yeah I think it's incredibly

strong and I think not everybody actually has that resilience um it was a long journey it was like you know a good five years yeah I know but not everybody gets to the point of actually changing their life. It's not an easy gear to do. And I know when I have one girlfriend who I'm really close to, and she's been an amazing support for me over the years, and she doesn't have her own family. And when I said to her I was having a baby, she's a bit older than me, and the first thing she did was cry, and she went, you know, you've made a big change in your life, and and I never did that and she didn't mean about being a mother she just meant

about just switching up the script actually I'm just being like this isn't working for me I need to do something about it and actually it's like not everybody nobody does that and there's never it's never too late to make those changes but it's just yeah it's always freed me out to do that it's always freed me out to kind of you know if if I feel like I'm just going along because I think I should and I'm not happy to make those changes it's like a reset um and it is courageous but it's always served me really well even if the payoff is years down the line yeah yeah I'd say it served you well definitely that's natalie talking there so brilliantly doesn't she she's really cool right i love uh people i speak to where they're not flamboyant about their strength but actually they're just

getting on with life and doing things where you think that's really brave. I'm not just talking about how her baby son came to be in the world. I'm also talking about, you know, when she talked about moving away from her family home when she was only a teen to be in another part of the country, in Australia, and also when she went back into the studio after having what she says, you know, pure terror about songwriting. These are not small things to overcome, are they?

They're pretty powerful, big, big things. But look, look at the passion and love that comes back into your life and all the happiness when you've actually got the other side of all those big challenges. So yes, impressive stuff. And hopefully you found it a little inspiring too. I'm sure you did. There's something else I want to talk to

you about oh yeah the other thing I did today back to me the only thing I think I did today is I sent off the final final manuscript of my book with all my final changes in it and I actually felt really sad saying goodbye to it so essentially I didn't realize it I finished writing the majority of the book at the end of March then it goes through edits then it goes through copywriting so like all the bits where I repeated myself which might shock you to hear this I've done a couple of times um that all got taken out then it went to a lawyer then it went back to me I made some more changes added some more bits in then it went back through the same process again lawyer again hobby editor again then my final changes which happened today and then bye-bye see you later book and I miss it I've really loved that project

and you know one of the saddest things for me about writing the book was that I couldn't put all the names of all the amazing people in my life in the book because essentially you're going to read it and I want you to be able to you know get the gist of the anecdotes without getting bogged down in too many characters and names. But for me, oh, it's sad. There's so many amazing people. So there's going to be a very long acknowledgement. I've already started to write all the names down.

It's going to be good. Shout out to the girls in my coffee shop. Shout out to my first teacher. Not really. But anyway, you get the idea. I think that's all I have to say to you for now. I'm really glad. Thank you natalie for speaking to me thank you to you as ever for lending your ears as i uh wind up talking to you i can see my kids are playing in the garden my five-year-old jess the one who came

to the passport place he's got obsessed with basketball he keeps trying to do slam dunks because he went to see uh space jam 2 the other day and he really they're all a bit inspired by this basketball it's really cute keep trying to dribble around the garden and um mickey well he's just in his nappy trying not to get uh bonked on the head and yes i do know he's getting a bit big for nappies but hey please don't no judgment here please no judgment all right i will leave you to the rest of whatever you're getting up to. Let's hope it's more interesting than my exotic going to get a new passport anecdote. Probably won't bother retelling that to anybody else.

And I think that's all. I will see you next week. Have a good one, folks. Let's keep it sweet goodbye Thank you.