Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 43: Rachel Ama

Episode Date: October 4, 2021

Rachel Ama is a chef and a vegan, as well as mum to her one year old boy. We talked about the pros and cons of having a 'lockdown baby', about her amazing-sounding home birth, and how living with her mum has helped with the birth of two babies: her son and her new book! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello my darlings. You join me as I walk back from school run. It's been a really, really

rainy night so I'm having to tuck in on the pavement because every time a car goes past I get threatened with a big splash from all the huge puddles hasn't got me yet though which is good because I don't want that um I to the passing pedestrians look a little bit insane because last night I recorded Graham Norton TV and I have still got the makeup on from the show. So I've got a very beautiful blue eyeshadow and false eyelashes. It's not completely out of character for me to sleep in my makeup. However, the reason I ended up not being able to take it off was actually because... So the show was really fun but i was a little bit nervous because graham

not in such a big tv program and it's the first time yeah it's the first time i've ever been on that show where i'm just a guest not singing so that's a bit scary And the other people on the show was Kadena Cox, who's an amazing gold medal winning Paralympic athlete. She won two golds in Tokyo this year, as well as just winning Celebrity MasterChef. Oh, oh, blimey. Greg Davis, who's a very funny chap. Blimey.

Greg Davis, who's a very funny chap. And Dave Grohl, who is obviously like one of the coolest people there is. Plus music with Jack Savaretti and Nile Rodgers. Because obviously, I don't use the word legend very often, but I think with Nile Rodgers, you probably are okay with that, aren't you? Amazing man. So anyway, I was a bit nervous. It's like quite a, you know,

big group of people to sit with. So after the show, Richard and I went for some drinks, which was nice. And then I just got home and we were watching Squid Games, which if you haven't watched it, it's really good. Anyway, and I was like,

oh, I should probably go to bed soon. And then little Mickey, little Mickey Jones, decides to wake up. And he was up basically from like midnight to about half three. So it felt like absolute torture. Anyway, so that was my night. And that's why I slept in my makeup, really. Because I sort of passed out with fatigue

at some point around like 3 15 not having had the opportunity to take my face off that's what you did to me Mickey you made me do a walk of shame in my blue eyeshadow anyway uh yeah because my book I've got a book coming out next week which I feel like I have talked to you about but then I don't know maybe not that much anyway it's um it's coming out what I say next week when you hear this it will be this week uh because I'm talking to you now it's uh it's Friday morning and this is published on Monday so yeah so I'm very excited but also really nervous about it coming out I feel like in like two weeks time it'll be you know old news baby it's just yeah there's something funny because you write down your book

and you're really honest and you write all this stuff and you think about how you want to articulate things and then people ask you questions about the book and you're a bit like I've sort of said what I wanted to say and how I wanted to say in the book so can we just not ask me any questions please but anyway it's coming out now so that's what's happening anyway um my guest this week you can tell I haven't had much my brain's a little bit foggy yes so my guest this week oh she's lovely Rachel Ammer so Rachel Ammer is someone I've been following on Instagram for ages she's a vegan chef she's her food always looks beautiful and delicious and she's also one of those people who's got that lovely sort of magnetic charisma about her when she's talking about her food and her lifestyle you feel like oh that looks like health and fun and vitality she also

has had a baby and the glimpses of him you see on instagram confirm he is incredibly sweet uh she lives with her mum and so we spoke about the bond she has with her mum and having a lockdown baby and uh you know the good bits about that and the bits that were a bit more challenging. And of course, we talk about food for a bit as well. I thought she was completely delightful. And yeah, it was a lovely chat. And now I'm going to share it with you. See you on the other side. But how's everything going? You've got a new book coming out at the end of this month, haven't you? Yes, so I have a new book coming out at the end of this month.

Yeah. In less than four weeks. My brand new book that I wrote while I became a new mum, which I don't know who I thought I was. I was like, yeah, I'll do it. I was six weeks old. Yeah, let's go. But I'm really, really excited about it. It's like the two babies in my life.

It was actually very emotional when I actually got given the book because I didn't realize how much of my emotions were wrapped in it because it was my whole new motherhood journey so um I remember I just got it and I kind of like just froze and was like I don't know what to do with it because suddenly I have to process all my motherhood in this book and I was like oh my god what's happened this is really emotional and now it's made it even more beautiful which is very special to me yeah that is really beautiful and it's I mean I suppose how do you ever untangle those things anyway because making something to eat either for yourself or for someone you care about be a friend or a loved one or whatever it's it's so

imbued in nurture and love yeah already isn't it when you're creating something to eat for you both um I mean you've already just said like what what was I thinking, you know, six week old baby. Can you remember how you were feeling at the time when you thought, yeah, a book is a great plan? Well, it's like, I planned it before I gave birth, but I was pregnant. But it was, I was going back and forth with publishers and ideas. So it wasn't set in stone. So it was only kind of after I had the baby that it was like okay go this is the deadline you've got to deliver it and it was really hard because like I didn't know what motherhood really was like I have a great mum I have a great role model and I love her so that was a great start I wasn't sure what motherhood would be like for me in terms of if someone else's

baby if someone had a baby and I was around them I would not be the one going up to the baby because I had that kind of like oh the baby doesn't like me I'm gonna be sad so I'm just gonna I'm just gonna let the baby do what the baby wants to do and I'm not gonna interrupt but I always knew that when I have kids one day like I'm really excited about it so I became a mum and like one I don't know why like I plan breastfeed, but I had no idea that breastfeeding was all through the night. I think part of the problem was because of lockdown, there was no like mum groups or like antenatal classes or anything. So I just kind of threw myself in and suddenly I'm like, I have a baby that has colic. I didn't even know what colic was. Oh, I'm doing reflexology on his feet to try and make him fart and poo and and he's upset like it was just this whole like

I'm exhausted like I haven't slept in days and my mum was looking at me like wow Rach you look rough and luckily she she would just walk him up and down the stairs to help with the colic and I would just be like on the sofa in the summer just melting and then it came to writing a book so I kind of feel like I was a bit of a zombie through the the beginning and luckily my mum was just that kind of hero that I could be like okay mum I have to test recipes and she would just hold him in the kitchen or put him on the bouncer and just bounce him make him laugh and then I'd just be there cooking and then at the end of it she would get a really delicious meal and then she also got to like create this beautiful relationship with her grandson and it just became this really crazy hectic wild but beautiful experience in writing

a book yeah well I'm smiling for a lot of that because you've already touched on so many things I wanted to speak to you about not least your relationship your mum which sounds amazing and the idea of this sort of three generations under one roof is really really gorgeous and I imagine if your sort of early few weeks of motherhood and all those months and the last year is anything like my sort of existence when I've just had a baby it sort of swings between this really wh know if I've just had a baby. It sort of swings between these really wholesome things when the baby's gurgling away and you're cooking and you're thinking, this is actually really lovely

and everything's almost sort of super good. It gives you this sort of rush of, yeah, it's sort of like eating something that's really good for you. Like it's so wholesome. Or all the wheels are falling off and the baby needs something and you're thinking I don't actually know how it's like hanging by a thread the entire thing there's not really a lot in the middle it's sort of either like one or the other it really is that because I honestly like when I

would explain it um people would like friends would ask me like oh how's motherhood and I mean like I'm so in love and then someone close to me will be like but you're always tired and moaning and I'm like yeah but I love him I'm always tired and exhausted but I those moments of bonding and the breastfeeding like everything just is so like you say wholesome and amazing yeah and you're actually in I presume you're now at home in the place where you actually gave birth is that right yeah that's pretty sensational Rachel I have to say I'm pretty amazed by that wonderful I think it's wonderful I would have loved that I mean was it kind of the plan right from the start that you like is that where your mum had you were you born yeah wow so yeah this house my mum and dad bought this house over 30 years ago so the price comparison is a joke but luckily me like me and my brother

were raised here and London is so expensive that I haven't moved out because I want to buy I don't want to rent but it just meant I'm still here but luckily it's just me and my mum and she's like my best friend and then when I found out I was pregnant I just said I want a home birth it was like a that was the only option in my head and because I knew I was born in this house and it was just like I mean fair enough I've never had a close friend or family member give birth so I'd never really seen it but I just knew I want to do it at home and I had to fight and push for it because of the state of the pandemic and everything I just knew that this was the safest place for me to do it and I just knew that I can't have one person in the room I can't have my

my son's dad and not my mum and I can't say to his dad can you just sit this one out so I can be with my mum because that's just not okay but whereas if I do it at home I've got them to I'm in my safe space I know this house it's I I've lived here my whole life it just made complete sense and I fought for it and it was it was so what was hard but it was beautiful it was I had two midwives come and I had Neo Soul in the background. I had Incense. The first two midwives, their shift ended, but they didn't even want to leave because they were having such a nice time. So then I had another two midwives and there was four midwives. My windows were open. It was a warm summer's day. I mean, I was in pain, but there was still

something really calming and beautiful about it. And I've recorded some of it that I look back on, which is amazing. And at the end, when he finally came, it was like everyone just broke for recess and there was an ambulance outside because I had stitches and the neighbours all came out and they're like, Rachel, congratulations. And the all came out and they're like Rachel congratulations and the middle eyes broke and they were like wow that was amazing I'll see you see you another time and it was just like quite surreal when I look back at how special that whole thing was and I'm so grateful that I for me knew that I needed that and I stuck with it and yeah it was perfect yeah like I imagine if you're close to your mum in the way that I'm close to my mum,

if your mum hadn't been someone supporting that from the get-go, it would have probably been really hard to actually push for that, even if instinctively that's what you wanted. But having your mum say, yeah, I've done that and it worked for me as well, that's really helped. Massively. And I think I'm also really grateful for my mum in that respect because she's my other anchor.

So even in childbirth, if I'm kind of losing myself a little bit, she just brings me down to earth. She's done it. She's done it in this environment. I trust her with my life. So it gives you so much confidence to fight for yourself internally and externally and yeah yeah and can you feel the layers of your relationship with your mum building through

what you've gone through just in the last 12 months yeah yeah that's pretty amazing isn't it she was really close but yeah she was already a best friend and then her I said to someone the other day like I felt unconditional love through how she raised me but having a baby kind of really showed me what it was and even in becoming a mum she just had my back so much and her focus in raising me was always to nurture and help first it was never to try and control or try and tell me what to do and that's why even now when I have my baby she's still the same nurture first I never feel like oh go away mum it's like she's she just has my back and she's she's there for me and it's is such a beautiful relationship and I'm glad that my son now will get to have that

with my mum because I just think that's so great for him yeah and I think one of the things the sort of unexpected joys actually of of um raising a small person is seeing the relationships that they form with other people and it's sort of nothing to do with you in a really good way so like your son and his grandma will have something that's just just theirs and yeah you're kind of in the peripheral of that and that's quite a nice feeling like it's just just for them yeah and it can actually end up being really you know beneficial and I think you know that whole thing about the grandparent is they have that very non-judgmental way of helping to raise their grandbabies uh which as parents it's sometimes quite hard you think

you're being like that but really you know it's very up close to your face and you can't help but let all your feelings and worries yeah get in the way i mean my eldest now i'm actually because of the plan is that when he moves out i'm gonna my mum lives 10 minutes away and she now lives on her own and i want him to move in there i think that'd be a really good place so he can go and live there so you still be near yeah uh we in there. I think that would be a really good place so he can go and live there. So he'd still be near. Yeah. We get an extra bedroom back, which would be handy for my next one down. But yeah, it would just mean that they can continue living like that.

I think that would be a good thing. Yeah, I think that would be really, really nice. It's quite cute, isn't it? Yeah. They both seem open to that at the moment, which is good. So you've spoken about when you saw your book. Can you tell me a little bit more about the book? this is one pot cooking is that right yeah so the idea behind the book really came from when I was touring my first book and everyone just kept asking you know like how do you maintain a

vegan diet and I realized that I just relearned how to cook so before I would have like say on a Sunday a roast dinner so I'd have a big roast chicken. And then the next couple of days, I'd probably use that, whether to make it a soup or make chicken sandwiches. Or you just kind of use what you have in the fridge to make meals. That's how I ate. And suddenly, when I'm vegan, the whole main piece used to be like the meat, whereas now it's gone.

So I would make something big on a Sunday, but that was vegan, and then have that different ways over the next couple of days. That way, myself, I was saving time and just that was how I cook. So it made sense when I came up with this book to kind of share that with people and create a book where I'm going to give you how to make one big pot of food and how to then use that as the centerpiece instead of meat make sure it's flavorful and easy to make and then have it this way on Monday have it this way on Tuesday and have it this way on Wednesday or have it the same way every day if you like eating the same food over and over again which I do actually like to do yeah and I really want in this to just help break that for the people that do want to have more plant-based meals but just don't know how to have it more than once or get into the habit of cooking with vegetables more often and how to make them flavorful so that's that's the goal here yeah

and I think one of the things that I really one of the reasons I wanted I've been following you on Instagram for ages because I think you make your food pictures they always look so inviting that I'm not even thinking about the fact that they're vegan, which I know sounds like a really, I'm sure a lot of people will say that to you, but it's just, I think sometimes if you're someone that does eat meat in your diet, you feel like when you go for the plant-based options, you're sort of doing, it's quite a conscious thing, like, oh, but actually, the things you make, I always think, that just looks, my brain just goes, yummy, you know, I just want to eat that. make I always think that just looks my brain just goes yummy you know I just want to eat that I mean I think food photography is such a big part of it I mean when you start cooking did you you know did you have to sort of develop that skill for how to make the food really jump out in the photos I think I was just kind of yoloing it in the beginning um like all of it like learning how to film myself for YouTube and how to talk on camera, you just kind of go with the flow. And then it wasn't until I did my first book when I was actually watching like a food stylist. And I was, my mind was suddenly blown because I was like, wow, this is

like behind the mirror. Like there's like planning involved and plates and the lighting and making the food look as attractive as possible and I think what helped me before seeing that experience was I just gravitate towards a really healthy looking plate of food and when I say healthy looking I mean just full of loads of food and variety I'm not really a fan of a beige plate. I do like some variety in colour. Yeah, and spice and all those things. Yeah, I want to see the sauce and the spices and the chargrills. And whatever I've made, it's tasty for the reasoning of how I've created texture

or added flavours and layers. And I want to see that in my pictures so that people understand that that really tastes good. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you've spoken about the sort of behind-the-scenes of a cookery book, and when you first did your first book, presumably, you know, you've done it yourself for ages, and that's why there's interest,

that's why you've, you know, written a pitch for how you picture the book being, and then suddenly cookbooks, they've got a whole kind of energy to them because the people that make cookbooks churn out lots in the year. There's a kind of, these are the people that do the different roles. And if you're not careful, you probably end up with something

that's sort of a vague version of what you do, but not actually 100% like representing the same style, especially when you've already established yourself in a very visual world with all social media and everything. And I was reading that when you did your first book the first pictures you saw you thought actually that's not that's not quite it and then when got some fabrics you had some fabrics from Sierra Leone things that represented like the extended family so that you could really draw all of that together and

presumably feel a lot more confident with your second book now they're just like I know exactly how to yeah it's out there definitely and I I think when I was came to the point of writing a book it was so important for it to feel like me like I'm giving people people want my recipes they want to know what I'm making and I really felt like because I didn't want to get lost in it because there are the different departments, different areas, it needed to feel like Rachel through and through. Otherwise, I'll feel really silly going on stage and saying, this is my book and it doesn't represent me. And this new book, I was so nervous and excited

because I was so headstrong on the vision of the book. excited because I was so headstrong on the vision of the book and I when I met well met online with the graphics team and everything I told them exactly what I want and they they really really nailed how I visualized my book and it was such a moment of relief and excitement and I was also just nervous about being on the cover because I just had a baby and I was like kind of really what's the word I tried to explain like at the time I didn't know what I liked in terms of my style and how I wanted to dress and I'd lost hair and I was like I can't style my hair in ways that I used to style my hair and it became this even more kind of precious book of mine that I was redefining kind of who I was because now I'm a mum too and this is my

second book this is older more mature Rachel but still the exact same Rachel and it I feel like the book really helped me find the voice of Rachel Amma as a mum as well as a chef because just designing it and the food in it and the voice I was sharing in it, it kind of is like the evolution of me, which I really find quite special. Yeah, I mean, that that's interesting you found it helpful in that way because I I think you've actually just summed up a lot of why I wanted to start these these this podcast and these conversations because I felt exactly like the way you've just described that when I had my first baby I mean it happens to a certain extent with whenever I've had a baby but I think the first one was the one where it's like whoa just knock me for six I remember just thinking I don't know exactly where I'm at

anymore and all the things I sort of liked before and how I used to dress and yeah it just didn't feel like is that definitely still me is that how I still want to portray myself um I hadn't you know that was before I'd even thought about making music or how I do that side of me oh this is just literally just how do I go out you know if I'm pushing the buggy around yeah I'm meeting friends and I think some women feel that to you know the greater or lesser extent I think it's quite hard not to feel that at all just because there's this new thing of like okay I'm now I'm now a mum and I think part of that process is quite homogenising in a way because you're suddenly part of this whole new demographic, if you like. Okay, you're now a new parent. You'll be wanting these products and this is how you're probably feeling

and welcome to all these online discussion things. It can make you feel like you're quite lost in it, hard to find exactly who you are and what works for you. And I wonder if in some ways the fact that you were in more of a lockdown situation and at home with your mum and your baby and it was a lot more focused, you could sort of work through that in a different way, I wonder? I reckon so because there's a lot less external voices creeping in because I couldn't go anywhere and I had to focus on my book and being

a mum and I think you're right I just had to kind of pinpoint it was like right I don't know how I want my hair to be but I need to figure it out because I have a deadline where I have to shoot the cover of the book I'm not really sure what kind of clothes I like I'm not really sure what clothes even fit me right now and I'm not sure what clothes work with breastfeeding exactly your body as well like your body doesn't isn't the same shape necessarily and it's like I don't even know when it's gonna be in a position where it's gonna stay the same again for a while because I know for now it's going to keep changing. And it is just, you're just up in the air. And I remember my son's dad was like,

okay, I'm just going to buy you a bunch of clothes. What do you want? And I said, I don't know. Like, I don't know what I like. Like, that isn't helping me right now. And he was like, you're dressing like a grandma. And I was like, I'm just wearing tracksuits because I don't know what else to wear and then he bought me all these clothes and I was like but I don't know I don't know how to wear them right now because my body

is different and I like you're just so confused yeah even to this day like I feel like I've pinpointed and found this new Rachel from this kind of, what is happening right now? Who am I? Yeah, it's so interesting. Yeah, and I think that will continue to evolve because your baby, is he just turned one? He's still very little. Yeah, just turned one. The first birthday, that's so cute. Yeah.

one he's still very little oh the first birthday that's so cute um I mean do you did you kind of I suppose obviously you haven't got anything to directly compare it to but do you feel like there were big things that um people who became parents during lockdown would all agree is sort of a pro and a con you think there are things that you've probably experienced quite differently I think there's pros and cons in a lot I think people are I notice people are worried that I have a lockdown baby which I asked them what they mean by that and they say like antisocial and I don't think my son is antisocial at all actually um I think there's like external pressures on what other people expect a baby that was in lockdown to be like where it's like can we just remove that and just see who they are and who they evolved to be I think there was pros of not going out to mum activities because I even had the app

and I it was too much headache for me that I deleted the app because I noticed that any pregnant lady might have the worry or concern and then it's on an app and then everyone's asking and then there's this kind of intense pressure about measuring kicks and measuring this and all. And to me, I didn't approach my pregnancy like that. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, everyone else's problems are now becoming my problem. I don't want this anymore.

And I deleted the app. And I think if there was more in real life things that happened out of lockdown, that might have been more conversations that I would have wanted to avoid. But equally at the same token, I didn't know that I was going to be breastfeeding through the night. I might have known that if I had met mum who'd had kids already. And even just... So what, you think the baby was just not going to want anything to eat during the night? I don't know what I was thinking, honestly.

Why do you think people always talk about being so tired? It's so crazy to me because mums will say they're tired. Yeah, and I'm like, oh yeah, it must be. And I'm like, Rachel, what was you thinking? You had no idea. You had no idea. It's like... You thought you were going to have a very, like, just baby that goes, you know what, it's about 8pm.

I'll see you at 8 o'clock in the morning. I actually had no idea. Thank you for a lovely day. See you in the morning. Literally, I think I must have just thought, oh, everyone's surviving, so it mustn't be that bad. Like, I'm just so naive about what it actually takes so naive I even remember I said to um my uncle's wife when I was a lot younger I was still a teenager something

about my new dog and how it would wake me up through the night it must be like a new baby Rachel Rachel how dare you compare your dog to... Oh, I don't know. I've heard that comparison before. Don't worry about that. Yeah, well, now I'm like, there's zero comparisons. Wildly, wildly apart. Wildly apart.

Maybe the universe's punishment was, here, have a colicky baby that doesn't sleep more than two hours, maybe three if you're lucky, and now I've learnt my lesson. That is pretty tough, though. That is is pretty tough is he sleeping better now he's still sleeping every two hours maybe three that's rough i do feel for you with that i think as well they kind of have their sleep identity a little bit so i feel like i've had five very different sleepers and uh yeah they tend to just sort of have a version that you know they're either good sleepers or not so good or early risers or like lying in and you kind of get a sense of it probably probably right by the time yeah about one one and a half you might have a

little bit maybe a few more like six more months to kind of yeah see where you're at with them and that's what i got to i got to a point where i was like some babies sleep long some babies don't if i have another baby fingers crossed yeah i guess at least you're working from home, so you can kind of mould it around that. And presumably you're going to raise him vegan? Yeah, I am. And that must be something that's quite natural anyway, because you start babies off on fruit and veg, no matter what.

That's quite a standard way to start. And then there's so many flavours that you can just keep introducing I found it really interesting being pregnant and seeing the foods they tell you to avoid as a pregnant lady and how it's all meat fish and dairy and in my head I was like how is it that in pregnancy we are to avoid these foods but it it's taboo to live that way in general or raise a child that way um which is taboo do you think it's taboo to the sort of veganist I suppose I feel like it's become the face of veganism to me has changed so much since say I was a teenager it's just now it has yeah it's yeah it's it's it's worlds apart I think and but I still have conversations where I explain why well I have to explain why I wouldn't give my son um milk dairy um which I find a little bit frustrating or I've been questioned about how I'd

be healthy in my pregnancy or if I would get enough protein or just things like that which were a little bit frustrating but I guess because it wasn't normal before. Yeah well that must be really frustrating, actually, because these things, the joy of seeing your kid eat and also, you know, the pressure you already feel when you're raising a baby about nutrition and everything. I mean, I've actually had two dairy intolerant kids, so, you know, I've done two years solid

where they haven't touched anything like cheese or milk or anything. And actually, it's so much easier. And I think for me, the only issue I would ever have thought is actually just being able to get hold of stuff. But now you can go to any corner shop anywhere or anything. And it's just, it's become not only... Alternatives everywhere. Alternatives everywhere. And not just as a very acceptable thing,

but actually I think that people are actively encouraged to make part of their diet now, just as part of how the world is evolving yeah and actually I was going to ask you about if you're you know what would you recommend to me as a good place a good meal to cook for my broods if I'm trying to sort of give them a good really good vegan like a Sunday lunch kind of a thing see this is where I never like to talk out of my my I I don't have he's one so I know that I meant for me for like what for you for family yeah don't worry yeah um in my new book I have a really nice jean and I have a really nice I have quite a lot of recipes in my new book that are really really family friendly and I think what's great about them being family friendly is you can make it all in a big big big pot um and then you can add your

little sides to it so you can vary it for the different ages so I have like the fam I have a chapter called basics where I've got roast all on one tray vegetables and some legumes and then different spices or herbs to keep it simple for various taste buds that I think are gonna be family favorite recipes yeah we'll definitely have to check all of that out um I mean we have actually we do try and eat quite a lot of plant-based here anyway just to keep it healthy it doesn't feel right doing lots of um meat and fish I don't think anyway but I think just I love my favorite is when you've done it and no one even really noticed yeah yeah that's that is honestly I still get that to this day I on his first birthday I cooked for a family in the garden so I cooked for like 50 people and none of them are vegan one person two people were vegan and I literally had my cousins coming up to me and most of them are

Caribbean and they're like wait what is in this what did you put like they're completely shocked all the food was gone there was none left for me the plates were empty and it was constant questions how is this vegan what did you put in this how comes it tastes so good because it's my mission is just to make textures flavorful and also I think what I explain to people in vegan food sometimes when you're new to it when I was new to it I wasn't giving myself enough variety of food and I was finding myself hungry and one of the time one of the ways that I helped myself was to base my meal my centerpiece okay around a protein source whether it was a chickpea or a butter bean or kidney beans or tofu or a plant-based alternative so every time I had that main centerpiece I knew that it was full-bodied

and it was going to fill me up. And I wasn't going to go to sleep hungry because I did that in my first few weeks of veganism and it was tragic. Yeah, yeah. Well, because the veganism, this is something that happened about five years ago. Is that right? When I went vegan? Yeah, five or six. six cool and did you find do you still find that you occasionally do get any cravings for the things you used to eat before or does that has that just completely gone now like I mean chicken I've heard that you used to like KFC and that kind of thing yeah I used to love a bit of fried chicken that was my that was my thing also just being Caribbean I had jerk chicken and I had curry goat

and I had all these all this Caribbean food was just like a big warm hug to me that's what I knew and I think that's why when I went vegan it was my mission to have the same delicious food that I thought was delicious before just in plant-based ways even in my book I've got a Cajun deep fried oyster mushrooms, which they are phenomenal fried chicken alternatives that would shock. All mushroom haters would eat that and go, I think I like mushrooms. Sounds good. Oh, it's so delicious. You get the texture and you get the crispy seasoned out of skin and it will not skin just fried batter and it's so nostalgic to the original and you don't feel like you're missing out on the fried chicken I can make jerk in ways and season it on vegetables or vegan meats and

make it so good that you're not thinking I risked this was on a piece of chicken um so and that that makes me like feel good because the reason I went vegan a large part of it as well as animal welfare was just nutrition and health and I was quite annoyed as a city girl in London that I never really knew much about the farming processes and I had no idea how my chicken, my fried chicken was ending up on my plate. And it really annoyed me that I was so clueless to it. And I wanted my friends and my family to reap the benefits of having more whole foods and plant-based foods, that they are delicious.

And actually they're fueling your body in really nice ways. So to be able to do what I do now and have people enjoy my food enjoy the recipes reaping the taste and the nutrition aspects it honestly just makes me so happy yeah and that's such a great motivation because you've kind of for the last few things you've been saying you've got so many strands there um you know the experience of all the flavors you've tried before and wanting to make sure that you've got as you said that nutritional, you're getting all of that nourishment. The idea of actually bettering people, but also making it so delicious and exciting and zingy.

And, you know, when you mentioned nostalgia, I was thinking, you know, it sounded like when I was watching an interview with you and you were talking about things you wanted to do when you were growing up. And actually one of them, I think, is music management, which I thought was really interesting. And I know music's still a really big part of your life, but I wondered to what extent your family is sort of woven into the dishes that you create. Are they all kind of represented there? Do you think of them when you're kind of cooking things and picturing them all sort of around the table eating it?

of cooking things and picturing them all sort of around the table eating it well um so my grandma um from St Lucia she was a cook and she cooked uh hospitals she cooked at nursing homes she cooked at schools and when she was here she would cook on the Sunday for the family, on Boxing Day or the family reunions. My grandma would cook. And when I was younger, I didn't really, you just take it for granted. You just, oh, she's a great cook. We know that. Food's great. And now that I've found this career in cooking,

it feels like, especially my love for Caribbean food on white, it feels like a big warm hug to me I think is partly because it reminds me of her kitchen because that was the smells I had and that is my roots but I never cooked with her so I feel especially kind of connected to her and I feel like she would be looking down on me and be really excited and proud that little Rachel her little granddaughter has suddenly found this love of cooking and especially in Caribbean food which is her home and I like to think I'm doing her justice yeah so it feels really special I think you're more than doing her justice I mean you know you

get to speak her name and it continues the legacy. And also, if she was cooking in, you know, hospitals and schools, it's like, this is a woman who can cook under pressure. This is a woman who can cook for time. Like, get all those plates out there, like, cook for lots of people. She probably found doing a Sunday lunch is like a bit of a doddle in comparison because it's like she can talk to people. It's like half the number of people at least. Yeah, I that's a lovely thing about cooking I think that's the way it

works it's so it's so close to home and food I feel like your food relationship is kind of crystallized by the time you're about 10 in a lot of ways in terms of associations and your sort of emotional response to you know how excited you get about cooking something when something's in front of you it's all it's also sort of part of like your early, it's another version of language, I feel like. It is. And I feel like good food is, it's universal. There is, in my opinion, there is nothing like having a moment where you've got a big plate of food of your favourite foods and being able just to sit there and enjoy it whether you're with your friends your family if you're by yourself it's it's just I love to make that a

special moment I'm never someone that wants to eat on the go I'm like I want to sit down and enjoy my meal and take that in because it is food is one of the most beautiful gifts we have and when we make it taste right that our taste buds are rewarded and they're happy and it is a feel-good moment that if you can take time to enjoy that moment enjoy it definitely yeah yeah and actually it's become so much more like the last 16 months when everybody's focused a lot more on making themselves something delicious to eat haven't they because we've all been been stuck at home and I mean when I mentioned before that you know it was unexpected having a baby when you did but did you always think that you'd be a mum one day I'd always hope to be a mum one day and I do

think it's just such having such a positive relationship with my mum to me becoming a man myself would only be another positive relationship so yeah it was like oh my goodness my career's just started yeah I was gonna ask you about that was there a bit of a home yeah yeah was there a bit of a feeling of like okay is this is this going to work out? Because it can be really scary. And I mean, I can very much relate if that was how you felt. Yeah, massively.

I was kind of just like, I felt like the universe was, I felt like he just chose me and was like, boom, you're my mum, and that's the way it's going to go. And I was kind of like, oh, okay. I had projects lined up and some of them required me to travel. And I was like, do I tell the producers that I'm pregnant by the time we shoot it? Will I have a bump? Are they not going to to want me there am I not going to be able to do this there was so much kind of confusion in how does this fit in with the career path and everything I'd planned out for the next year and then boom everyone had to stop and everyone had to sit down and everyone had to stay in their houses and it was this kind of kind of like oh the fear of falling behind suddenly kind of lifted because everyone had

to slow down that's crazy you must have felt like some weird like I mean I mean I know this baby chose me for his mum but he's really gone at it in a dramatic fashion to alleviate like anything any just to clear my diary got amazing powers yeah everybody stop yeah that's really true because actually that first bit where you think oh my goodness and you're sort of every time someone says a plan or something in the diary and you're kind of counting in your fingers like okay yeah, I'll be like seven months. I'm sure that'll be fine. I've got no idea how that'll feel. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I remember when I got pregnant, I'd only been going out with Richard,

who you met very briefly, for about six weeks. Oh, wow. Yeah, and I phoned my mum, and she said this bit of advice that basically we both clung on to, which was it might not be the right time and it might not be the right man, but it's the right baby. And it just gave us a bit of breathing space

just to let our relationship, we still dated and we didn't move in and all that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But just like, do we want to have this baby together? Yes. You know, you're his dad, I'm his mum. That is a given. We're going to deal

with that and then we'll just have our relationship I mean I look back and it was kind of comedic because I think Richard moved in like two weeks before Sonny was born in the end but really yeah we're gonna do it separate but together yeah we're gonna do it all together exactly and like meeting his parents with like a bump and all this kind of thing but um I think it just because it just gave me a a way to just focus on like sort of separate things out a little bit so they felt a bit calmer yeah because otherwise it's just quite a lot to take in all at once it is a lot I I almost want to kind of reverse and just sit here and question you about your whole experience so I can gain some

knowledge what do you want to know I mean I'm an open book with it but I don't I don't know it's just um a big it's a big exercise in going with the flow I think yeah unlike you I didn't have and actually I think thinking about you're one of the few people where they've had an idea of how they want to give birth and it's actually what happens yeah most of my girlfriends they had an idea of it myself want to give birth and it's actually what happens. For most of my girlfriends, they had an idea of it, myself included, and then something completely different happened. And I ended up having my first two months early. So when he was born, we'd actually only been dating for eight months. So it was all a bit, it's kind of like a little bit dramatic, but then we didn't know any different, so you just get on with it, really. Yeah.

But yeah, I'm very happy to give... I never... Oh, is it advice? I've had experience, I'd say. Life experience. Yeah. Can you remember when your first baby turned a year old and where your headspace was and what you thought the next five years would look like

and did they look anything like that well I definitely don't think I felt as uh much myself as you seem to sound when you were making a book I mean I'm you know it's interesting you said your book kind of helped you feel like yourself again because I felt like that took I felt like that took at least two years actually yeah maybe even three um and all my work I just had to park it. You didn't have a pandemic then? I didn't have a pandemic, no. But when I realised I was pregnant, I was just releasing my first single from my second album.

Wow. So the timing was pretty bad, sort of comedically bad. And I didn't tell anybody. And the first single was a song called Mixed Up World, and I was singing it on top of the pops and I was newly pregnant but no one knew

no one knew I was dating Richard wow and I was also still being managed by someone I'd just

I'd previously dated so the whole thing was quite it was quite intense yeah that's a lot to take in that's a lot to take in it's a really intense time and I'd say

basically everything's kind of been much easier since then really yeah I think that was the worst bit really and next only being born early and the vision of the next five years no I'm not very good at that are you quite a planner then do you have an idea of five years I'm a planner but not at Like, when I talk to my friends about motherhood, I'm not much of a schedule kind of person. I think that's quite good. I am more of a go overflow. And I think that's the only reason I got through, like, my book and everything is because I just go, I'm just going to do it.

Yeah. I'm just going to go this way. I'm just going to go that way. I'm going to try this right now. So. Yeah, I think being instinctive is good. I would recommend that okay yeah because plans and kids and plans don't tend to be great bedfellows I don't think no no and also you don't

know who you're gonna have like they come along and they're the whole they're just their own person and yeah yeah and they you know you might have an idea of like I'm gonna you know my like for example you know you might you might have a baby that's not really that bothered about food. He might be just a bit unfussed by the whole thing. He might not get excited. You know, I've got one kid in my house who doesn't get excited. Like, Richard and I love food. We're always, if we're not in the middle of preparing ourselves something, we're thinking about the next meal.

I go to bed being excited. I get to have breakfast when I wake up. Like, food is a big part of my life. But I've got one child who's just not, he probably just eat he eats in a functional way yeah how did I produce that yeah we'll see I'm hoping he's gonna be my sous chef but you know he might decide he has no interest so only time will tell yeah well you know what even if he's not like massively interested you can still help he can still be helpful yeah is there two different things

yeah I mean so your mum has been the person the sort of linchpin it sounds like I love the idea of your relationship it sounds so gorgeous and I don't know if there's any point moving out really Rachel I think you should just stay living at home it sounds like thank you for saying that I've literally been I literally because I'm I'm before I found out I was pregnant I was like okay I'm just gonna I'm just gonna have to go I'm gonna go I live in North London I was like I'm just gonna go Brixton and just create my own little and then I found out I was pregnant I was like okay well you're not going anywhere and then the pandemic and I was like well you've made less money this year anyway so you're not going anywhere and then the pandemic and I was like well you've made less money this year anyway so you're not going anywhere and then I felt this pressure now to like provide for him and have a garden for him and at the minute he's in my room and I'm like no he

needs his own but not right now but he I want him to have his own bedroom and I want him to have this and then the other part of me kind of checked myself like you're in a home that you feel safe in that is a really beautiful home that you actually love with your mum who is also your best friend and is taking care of your son when you're working and I'm in London in this little beautiful utopia and it's actually really perfect so why are you trying to force these ideals because at my age when my mum was my age she had a house and was married and had two kids but actually buying a house back was a completely different kettle of fish and being by I just it just kind of I got a reality check on how lucky I actually am to be here yeah that actually I should take advantage of this

and when it feels right when the time is right it will be there yeah absolutely and I think also you know you're you're productive it's not like you're feeling like lost we're talking about you're you're somewhere where you're getting things done and you have your space but also for your mum I think you know she's getting so much out of it too yeah and babies and and kids you know for the especially with how life is at the moment it does provide routine and purpose and you get up in the morning and this small person needs you and they're smiley and they go right let's you know well most of the time they're smiley not always they're like right what does what does today hold for me I think that's really that's really like stuff is happening you're in a world where things are happening and you're and I think also when

you've got a new baby it's really easy to feel very cut off and very isolated and being able to you know see your friends go into the local community places that are familiar things that you know where to go like don't put yourself under any extra pressure what's the point no one else no one else is keeping tabs on what happens yeah right like that that only comes from you really that feeling I think it really does and even like you say like with how crazy the world is the other day my mum was at work and she came home quite late and she said oh Rach every now and again when I get a bit stressed or if I look at the world in certain ways I remember his smile and then I feel better it's like oh that's so sweet well he's a lucky boy because he's surrounded by love I just think babies born

around like that it's the best best thing ever yeah I mean you mentioned mum working did you grow up with your mum working was she always a working mum when you was young yeah so my dad was a is a cab driver and my mum um by the time I was born opened her first not her first shop she'd had shop but this was in Crouch End she opened a gift shop and she's been running her independent shop since so she's always been working but always been able to be flexible because it was her own shop so I remember as a little girl and there's pictures of me like sweeping the floor in the shop or I used to have my scooter and I used to when the shop would be closed I'd be there just going around and around and around and all the staff knew me and I remember sick days I'd be in my mum's shop with the pricing gun in the basement

pricing notepads like um yeah so I guess I always wanted to also have a job where I could work but I could also be present yeah be flexible and I think also it sounds like your mum yeah she if you work in a shop presumably as well you get that community of your regular customers and seeing people and that's quite good for your head and I suppose that's what we've got now with um being able to put things online it's the community that you can find I mean did you feel like it really kind of gained something extra in the last while where everybody's obviously been turning to their phones to find things to do and places to be and watch lives and all this sort of thing.

I feel like I found my new mum friend because of Instagram. Literally, like I saw people's pregnancy announcements and I slid in DMs and was like, I'm pregnant too. And now that, because I, I followed them for interest of like what they were doing in their life or their, their diet choice. Like one of my friends was into nutrition. My other friend was into holistic healthcare and then I followed them and then they announce they're pregnant. I'm like, oh my God, I'm pregnant too. And then all of a sudden,

let's meet up and we've got kids that are the same age. And without that, I think I would still be kind of trying to find some mum. I mean, I've got two. I should slow down. But to me, that's massive.

What, two? You've got two what? Two new mum friends. Two new mum friends. No, that's good. I think actually that when you don mom friends two new mom friends no that's good I think actually that when you don't have that I didn't really know any anybody with kids when I had my first and I do think it makes a massive difference just being able to just hang out people who've got exactly the same thing to you know you meet because they're small people but then you become friends because you've got other things in common yeah that's the good stuff and actually

that as well helps you get to that bit as well feeling like yes this is me this is me when I am raising that person but I'm also myself yeah do you find it easier now to to know what to wear and how to see your hair and all these things is that kind of coming back do you think it's coming back but I actually think the gym was a massive help in that okay one thing in particular that I really noticed was my posture. So I started training, I think, two months after with a PT, but gentle training, working on bringing my abs back together. And I took pictures and I was in shock at how hunched over I was because I was breastfeeding all the time. Yeah, you sit in a silly way, don't you?

You do. And I just kind of going to the gym and working on getting strong again really helped my confidence in just walking and walking I felt taller in my walk once I started training again and I'd gotten stronger and my posture improved and I can carry my son up the stairs all the time now whereas in the beginning I was so tired and like mum do you mind just carrying because my room's aloft I was like mum I'm so tired can you just carry him please whereas the gym has just given me that confidence of being a mum that I can be physical and strong in myself with my son and that was really really big for me and

walking tall and confidently it really helped me yeah yeah no I can imagine that and as you say that strength is actually something that stands you in good stead for so much stuff to come as well because when they get older as well it's so physical yeah the play and all that um I mean you mentioned you know sort of being a mum are you are you the sort of mum that you thought you'd be did you have an idea of what kind of mum you'd be yeah I like that yeah yeah yeah I think I I wanted to be I my mum made sure when I was little that any sport...

I did trampolining, I loved... I was just one of the kids that just wanted to go out and play and do it. And I wanted to be a mum that would feel confident letting my child explore and discover. And I feel like... I was nervous that I would be too protective but I think I've got a good balance because I've unconsciously just watched my mum and picked up so much that I feel really comfortable and confident in how things are going yeah I think having your mum on with you like that

is actually something that's pretty magical I think a lot of people would think that that would have been a really lovely thing and especially with the lockdown stuff some people had to wait really long time to have their parents with them so I think that's wow that's actually really you've managed to take something really special out of what's the circumstance I think it's really lovely I do say to people if if if you're lucky enough to have such a positive role model in your with your mum or dad to have them there with you when you have a new baby is everything yeah yeah I would agree with that um there was one other thing I wanted to ask you and then I think did I hear a baby in the background I'm not sure yeah okay I'll make it really quick.

I know you need to go. Do you miss travel? Because as a chef, I would imagine that being able to travel and try things around the place is such a big part of inspiration and also discovery and excitement. Yeah, massively. I actually had Ghana and Nigeria booked in December. And then I found out I was pregnant.

And I had to redirect my flights. And then not being able to travel, I was so excited to get into Africa and explore some more food and taste new food. And it really, that was massive for me and it actually really made me upset and not being able to go with everything that's going on but equally I found a new love of just watching travel food vloggers god that feels like a bloody tongue twister um and I would just watch people in all over the world trying food and sharing their experiences and and that has been like my saving grace in because I love food and I

love the exploration of it I love the food stories I love understanding different cultures and how they cook and what they cook and how they eat and the history behind it. So one of my plans is to rediscover my roots in Africa, in Sierra Leone, through food. And hopefully, fingers crossed, I will be able to do that soon because it is so important and special. That sounds like an amazing adventure as well yeah it'd be a lovely lovely trip to go on and also you're gonna you know learn food reflected back from what your what your son gets excited by as well so that sort of feeling of you know how it all evolves and the journey of it and the family and every book that you do will feel like another diary entry and in the stages of your life and you'll and every book that you do will feel like another diary entry

in the stages of your life. And you'll look back at that first one and be like, oh, that was that bit just before everything kind of went into a new chapter. It's really exciting. I wish you all the best with your new book. I'll definitely be checking it out and trying some of the stuff out. I'll let you know. I'll give you some feedback from the Jones boys.

Yes. And in the meantime, is your mum with the bubba now? Take her for know. I'll give you some feedback from the Jones boys. Yes. And in the meantime, will you thank your... Is your mum with the bubba now? Yeah. Thank her for me. I will. Normally, in an ideal world, I record these in person, and I've yet to actually interview anybody who's got a small baby

that I can just have a little squidge with. Oh, this could have been it. This could have been it. I'll have to make do with just the idea of it. It's fine. Yeah, and I'll go back to my, well, they're all right. They're still a bit cuddly, but not quite so. Yeah, my two-year-old's got us at a really bossy stage.

Really? Oh, yeah. So these are all the stages I need to learn. This is where you have to teach me what's coming. Yeah, but it's nice. I mean, I actually really love the age of sort of between like two and three because they're sort of, they're kind of like small crazy people because they've got no common sense.

There's no rule book. He's quite articulate now. So he can just tell me what he wants to do and it's just whatever idea, you know, takes his fancy and that's what we're doing. I quite like all that. It's like having, yeah, like a little crazy person with you. I quite enjoy it.

Okay. I'll look forward to that then. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you. It was so nice talking to you. And yeah, I wish you all the best with everything. Thank you so much. And yeah, go and give that baby a little,

a little squidge for me. I will. Cool. All right, take care, Rachel. Thank you. All the best yeah I told you she's really lovely and now I'm about to go into my house but I'm a bit transfixed because basically for two maybe two or three weeks even we've had a spider that we've now called Gary living out just outside so outside my front door I've got like a little porch bit

and Gary's built the most spectacular web just outside my front door and I can see why he doesn't want to move it's a work of art and actually now that it's been raining the whole web is covered in raindrops and it looks beautiful I'll try and take a picture of actually and i can see gary he's not on his web he's sort of stuck to the side he's huge he's a really big he's quite a traditional garden spider in his coloring but he's a super size one and when people come to drop things off at the front door i have to kind of warn them not to go walk two steps back because they'll find themselves right with their head in the web which i don't think is what gary's intending to catch in there but yeah it's really good gary you've

done a great web mate i love it really beautiful aren't spiders amazing i don't have any instinct just to do that i do like spider webs do which is lucky because our garden's full of them um anyway thank you for as ever lending me your ears please do keep your comments podcast guest suggestions and general all-round keep up the good work type comments coming because they're really good for my morale because i adore doing the podcast but it's uh it's such a passion project and it's really nice when yeah i know it's reaching you it's a good feeling it's a nice little community we have here isn't it oh anyway i should probably go in and i can see that i've got to take the milk and we've got milkman around here and i can see that the milk is directly underneath gary's web so there's a little bit of trepidation

when it comes to bending down and picking up all those bottles i'm gonna go for it uh tune in next week to see how i got on with the web don't that'd be very boring tune in because i have a lovely guest see you soon have a great week love you lots bye Thank you.