Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 5: Janet Ellis

Episode Date: August 3, 2020

The most personal episode of spinning plates yet sees Sophie talk to her mum, Janet Ellis. Janet has 3 grown up children.. Sophie (her eldest) and Sophie’s two younger siblings Jackson and Martha. she also has a dog called Angela. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates.

Hello, welcome to Spinning Plates. How are you? I hope you're all well in true working mother fashion as we are all doing now that we're all working from home all the time. I'm in the garden with two of my smalls so you'll hear them in the background no doubt. This week is my conversation that I recorded with my mum. We recorded it back in March just before lockdown. Went round to her house, was allowed to hug her and all that stuff so it's very strange listening back. It's not that long ago chronologically but it feels like a lifetime ago in terms of how things have changed since then. And I'm going to be really honest. I found this the hardest of all the interviews I've done

and all the podcast chats. This was the hardest. Hold on a second. Kit, you can have it in a second, but let me... Yes, you can go and finish it. That's fine. Kit wants to finish his popcorn from yesterday. That's quite reasonable, isn't it? Yes, he can go and finish it. That's fine. Kit wants to finish his popcorn from yesterday. That's quite reasonable, isn't it? Yes, he can finish the bag.

But, yeah, I found it really hard interviewing my mum. I guess it's because, A, I don't have loads of experience as an interviewer anyway, so that's still quite new, and, B, she's very close to home. She's talking about her own life, and the child in question while she's working is me, so I'm sort of responsible for the good and the bad, aren't I? With how it affected what she got up to.

So, yeah, I found it really lovely to talk to her about it. There's so many things you don't normally talk to your mum about, like how becoming a mum affected them. You don't really think about your pre-mother mum, do you? You don't think about them and the life they lived before you came along. You don't normally, unless they keep reminding you you i used to have time to myself before you anyway i hope you enjoy it it was recorded around my mum's house and her comfy sofas that's my four-year-old in the background and um i'm gonna go and disappear into the kitchen make myself a cup of tea as i like to do while i have a listen to and uh see you on the other side so we've talked about motherhood and being a working mother and all aspects of motherhood

and working like countless billions of times since I had my first baby 15 years ago but um there's actually still a lot of stuff we probably haven't really spoken about about when you had me but also we've never had a long conversation about it it's usually been piecemeal hasn't it about one particular aspect of what's happening or I remember and yeah we haven't addressed it no course of an hour half an hour or so no and also probably I'll ask you something and then I'll be in amongst something else and the kids will be here or whatever yeah um but yes um it's really nice to talk to you about these things because basically I think the way that you raised me and the fact that you were a working mother has had such a massive well it's basically formed the template of how I the kind of mother I wanted to be and the kind of, where I wanted to approach my work.

And even now that I've had, I'm sort of five babies in, I still take comfort from the fact that you were doing all of this before me. Because when you had me, what was going on with your work? Because everything that people would know you for is all since you've been a mother. Yeah, it is, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I wasn't long out of drama school, really. And I just, I'd had a couple of jobs.

I mean, I was really lucky in that I worked really quickly once I left, and I'm aware that that's happy and unusual. So I was sort of tolling along quite nicely, and then, for my agent, certainly put a fairly large spanner in the works by not planning to get pregnant um but nevertheless from the moment I knew I was it never occurred to me that I would be your mum you know I didn't ever think of an alternative um it's a funny thing though because I was I was working at the time

and I was feeling a bit this will sound really daft I was feeling a bit, this will sound really daft, I was feeling a bit queasy in the morning. And I went to the doctor across the road from us, who I'd never actually been to before. We lived then in St Margaret's, in a flat that was part of a bigger house. And opposite us was a whole doctor's practice with this ancient small doctor, sort of all-night-sized doctor, who used to come in and out, to my deep fascination, really,

because he just seemed to inhabit this entire house on his own. I remember going over and saying, you know, would you take me on as a patient? And yes, and I've had this. And then I listed my symptoms. You know, I'm feeling a bit queasy and generally feeling a bit tired. And he diagnosed gallstones. Almost immediately. And then he tapped my tummy with a little rubber hammer and said yeah that was definitely what it was

how has having gallstones influenced your creativity well weirdly enough it influenced my medical knowledge because even as I was leaving his surgery I thought but I think I'm pregnant and I hadn't even thought that before it was only having it so clearly refuted that I thought, but I think I'm pregnant. And I hadn't even thought that before. It was only having it so clearly refuted that I thought, A, this man's an idiot, and B, I'm probably pregnant. And I was just finishing off this television play. And... You were 22 at this point, weren't you? Yes, yes.

And we were just doing the last scenes. And my first thought, actually, to be perfectly honest, was nobody must know. You know, I must just keep this a total. And my first thought, actually, to be perfectly honest, was nobody must know. I must just keep this a total secret because my character's not pregnant. I haven't been pregnant up until now, as far as I knew. And the woman who was directing it, who was a very lovely woman,

on the last day of shooting said to me, oh, and by the way, congratulations, because I'm pretty sure you're pregnant. And she just sort of sensed it because it was really early wow really early on really early and it was true um but then i did i did spend my entire pregnancy feeling like the world's cleverest person actually because i didn't know anybody with a child you know obviously none of my contemporaries were mothers then you know i was 23 when i had you but my mum your grandma had me when she was 23 so I knew it was possible yes and I knew that

young motherhood was it was a good thing actually because it never occurred to me that she was anything other than very present for me and I thought yeah that's that's that's the way to do it although I don't think it was a psychologically imperative thing that I was then going to be a mother at that age because I was really ambitious. You know, everything I'd ever wanted to do in life was directed towards being an actress. Every single choice I made at school, including leaving school very early,

was all about going to be an actress. And that was such an obvious thing to me that although I thought at some point yeah really I definitely do want to have children I hadn't really thought when yeah or how that would work and you know I was obviously as an actress I was incredibly freelance and Robin your dad had only just started out in his career too so we were both at that stage where you're just thinking right this is going okay and all of a sudden I had to go well it is going okay yeah and in fact a part I'd been up for that I was offered um they then took away because I was pregnant that's fine that's fine okay that's fine and yeah that's actually it does go pretty deep

but I I did feel really clever I just thought that's amazing and to be perfectly honest it never occurred to me that it would work out and I think that strange completely unfocused optimism has got me through most of my life choices because I've only ever chosen to do things where when you tell people that's what you want to do, they don't go, oh, you know, dentist, for example. Dentist, great. You know, you could be in private practice, you'll never be short of work.

If you say actress or writer, the first thing people do is go, it's really tricky, actually. Hardly anybody makes it. I don't know if you know. You know, the employment figures are really poor. And, you know, if you say you want to write, they go, hardly anyone.

It's published, actually. And even if you do, it's really, you know. So I've just poor and you know if you say you want to write the hardy anyway it's published actually and even if you do it's really you know so I've just unwittingly made all these choices which weren't really choices at all it turned out to be things that tested my optimistic resolve to the nth that's amazing you don't even remember so you're 22 just out of drama school all these ambitions but it still didn't really occur to you to think this is this could be quite tricky now no baby and all this stuff I think probably because I had absolutely no plan to have a child I think in a way this is a terrible thing to say I feel a bit sorry for people who plan to become a parent because I think then you focus on this ideal of how it's going to be and how your

life will be restructured and some of that's pretty scary and some of it seems possible with a lot of help and other bits of it are completely unimaginable but you're still nevertheless swapping a lifestyle for another and I never had that I just thought well I'm going to be an actress with a child then that's who I'm going to be so you know I and I did work really quickly after you were born. Yeah, was it six weeks? I got the job at six weeks, yeah, and started filming at 11. So did you have to audition, sort of heavily pregnant or with a tiny baby? No, I auditioned after I'd had you.

This was for? This was for Jigsaw. Jigsaw, okay. Yeah, and the lucky thing was that Clive Doig, who is still a friend, was, well, he is an extremely eccentric person, plus he loves the idea of more babies in the world and the people who have them. who is still a friend, was, well, he is an extremely eccentric person. Plus, he loves the idea of more babies in the world and the people who have them. So when we were first going to start rehearsing, he said to me, oh, you can bring her to rehearsal.

And I knew perfectly well even then that that meant I would not rehearse properly. And I actually, I then thought, oh, I'm going to need, you know, I'm going to need someone to look after you. And again, if I look back, there were bits about it that worried me because I was going to be leaving a very small baby. But I think because, partly because of this,

oh, it's going to be okay, and also because my mum was around then, you know. And although she wasn't a terribly hands-on grandma in the way of, you know, I'll babysit. I don't know, countable numbers of times she babysat, actually. But she was there as a support in this idea and the fact that it was all going to be okay and that I could manage. And I thought I need, you know, somebody to look after me, a temporary thing, because I couldn't afford to pay for full-time childcare. because I couldn't afford to pay for full-time childcare.

So I'll find someone, you know, ideally a bit older than me and, you know, somebody really experienced. And the girl who looked after you was 18. But she was the eldest of five, funnily enough. Oh, OK. So lots of baby practice. And she was delightful. Really lovely girl. Just easy and patient.

And for her, looking back now? You know, my precious, practically newborn infant. Yeah. And then go off filming. To an 18-year-old. Yeah. Pretty reckless behavior. Pretty reckless.

Just in case it was audible, Angela, the dog, was now falling asleep on the floor. And that snoring was not me. Oh, yeah. I'm so used to that. Yes, people might think it's either of us really. That's the danger, yeah. She says she's quite a young 64, but actually if you heard her breathing, it's just like, whoa.

I suppose, well, for me thinking, I mean, I suppose it's always quite hard to imagine previous generations and being young mums because you sort of always hear about how people are leaving it later and later to have their first baby so I suppose I imagine that when you had me in the late 70s and maybe you might have had some peers that had babies but you didn't know I didn't know anybody um which again made me feel pretty clever and also pretty I don't know I think I'm quite lucky in that I've always been very generous with my babies. I like seeing other people holding them.

And I like the idea that you were a very social baby anyway, but I like the idea that you would be held by other people and that you would see what their faces looked like or hear what they said. And I like sharing. I don't like sharing anything else, actually. That's definitely trickled down to me as well. I'm very much like that as well. Yeah.

Yeah. That's why I don't think we've ever really acknowledged that It's definitely trickled down to me as well. I'm very much like that as well. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I don't think we've ever really acknowledged that before, but I definitely feel exactly the same way. And with the people who help look after you as well. Yeah. You know, and I know, particularly with Christine, who was our nanny for a long time, if any one of you went to Christine before you came to me

once you'd fallen over or something had gone wrong, I genuinely never thought anything other than, I've chosen the right person then, you know. I never thought they're replacing me. But they are helping. They're genuinely helping bring up, and particularly with Christine, doing a lot of the things that I would have bolted at simply because I don't like being outdoors

in driving rain, touching a small boat to a tree in richmond park i just don't christine did i mean christine was when i was i think 11 no later than that earlier than that rather uh yeah maybe from when jack was born yeah around yeah because yeah because she started when we were still in st margaret there was a bit of time and it was just me and her yes a little bit um maybe when i was about seven then. But between having me to having any of my siblings, so I didn't have Jack until I was eight, and that was in a whole different place and with my stepdad John rather than my dad.

So there's quite a lot that happened in that beginning bit that was just you and I. I mean, my dad and you split up when I was four. So I suppose there's a lot of things happening there. So the beginning bit, so you did Jigsaw, but what about things like Doctor Who and all those others? Was that all around the same sort of time? That was, yeah, Doctor Who was around then too.

Okay. And then Blue Peter was, yeah, you were four when I started Blue Peter, weren't you? So, yeah. But I did three series of Jigsaw. Okay. So, yeah, from the time you were four when i started with peter weren't you so yeah but i did three series of jigsaw okay yeah from the time you were born sort of only one a year basically yeah until blue peter it's funny my memories of jigsaw is because i was so little um i mean it's still quite a quirky tv program they're not even people my age necessarily remember and it seemed to be quite abstract and a lot of crazy stuff happening.

A lot of crazy stuff. So there'd be, there was like a talking character that was a piece of jigsaw puzzle. Yes. And jig. And then there was a character called Nosey Bonk. Nosey Bonk. With a scary mask. Nosey Bonk, because my co-presenter, Adrian Headley, was a mime and had trained at Le Coq, apparently.

Oh really? Yes. That's where mimes go. Class at Le Coq, apparently. Oh, really? Yes. That's where mimes go. Classes must be so quiet, though. Anyway, he was a brilliant mime. He was a brilliant mime. But one of the characters he did in Jigsaw was this nosy, bonk character, which I think is based on a...

I'm going to say German, because a lot of German children's literature is pretty savage. So if it isn't German, then it's German-ish, Germanic. But he, yeah, he doesn't speak at all. He's just this extreme character with this massive nose. He's called Nosey Boggies. And yeah, people still come up to me and say that was formatively terrifying. Yeah, on the surface of it, presenting children's TV with a young child

sounds like a really happy fellow. But if you happen to be making a TV programme that features really scary masks... Presenting children's TV with a young child sounds like a really happy fellow, but if you happen to be making a TV programme that features really scary masks... Plus it was... Then we had the O-Men, who were Sylvester McCoy... Oh, goodness, I've got it. ..and David Rapaport, who were both individually and together

utterly brilliant and creative. You know, they were extraordinary people. So the bits that were recorded was a fraction of what was going on round and in the studio and in Clive's head, I think, quite a lot. And we had a chap called Wilf Makepeace Lunn, who is an inventor, but that meant mainly that he made such complicated machines that were doomed to never work properly on the first take. And in those days, studio time was pretty open-ended,

so we'd often not finish until 11 or something like that. Wow. And was that quite tricky, though, if you had me waiting at home? I don't remember it as tricky, but I think I'm quite good at editing out the trickiness. It must have been, actually. It must have been.iness it must have been actually it must have been and it must have been hard on Robin as well because if you talk to anybody who is absorbed in a project and you will know this the project becomes incredibly important yes and and it has its own flavor if you like doesn't it so that while you're doing it that's pretty much all you can taste so you do the rest of the stuff of course and you know things happen and um add or subtract to it in whatever way but the the thing that gives

you the most flavor is your project and if it's the right one i guess not always you know some of those things are just you get them out of the way but jigsaw was immensely satisfying to do because i was employed as an actress. And it was all little sketches. So I just spent my entire time raiding a dressing up box and pretending to be someone else. And then I was doing bits to camera because it was also a competition. It was a wordplay competition. And at the beginning and end of it, we'd announce the winners. And we'd then say where you had to write to to claim your prize and all that kind of thing.

And then people started saying to me, have you ever thought about presenting? And I was massively offended. Oh, OK. Really massively offended because I was an actress. You know, there was obviously going to be a place that leased the RSC waiting for me and I couldn't understand why people were so insistent that I might consider another career.

So what made you say yes to going along to the Blue Peter audition? Well, just to backtrack a bit about the difficulty bit bit it's funny because when when we talk about that time which was just you and me i remember it both incredibly fondly i mean is probably the basis of our relationship that because because i had you because i was going through extreme unhappiness as most people do with the divorce and i you know there's no point in dwelling on all of that but it did mean that there was a focus outside it and I would I would love to have thought I could have protected you from that and actually I know I can't couldn't and that's had a massive impact on you too but it also meant that I was still walking along in the same way, if you know what I mean. Nothing was happening to make me think I shouldn't be doing this,

either divorcing my husband or carrying on with my career. But I had this little hand in mine all the time, and that was really important. I think over that time, I probably behaved selfishly as well. I probably didn't think about much else sometimes. behaved selfishly as well I probably didn't think about much else sometimes but if I was to either say it to anybody else about how to behave or to justify it I would say it was probably just preservation it was probably just a way of getting through and making sure that at the end of it hopefully there's a patch of clear ground and the sun coming through and then when it was you and me after we were apart and we had that time when we were living together as it were and just you and

me I remember that as an extremely precious part of my life and it is an unrepeatable part you couldn't do that with either of the others they have a very different home life but it was tough and I probably did behave badly because I was also a comparatively young woman and in that selfish way I was going to have a career and I was also going to have a social life so yeah yeah probably not my finest now some of that well it's funny though because um I can understand why you might think like that, because I know that for Jack and Martha, who were born when I was eight and then 11, everything was very different and a lot more of a stable, happy home life

alongside work that was probably a slightly different shape because certainly, well, actually Jack and Martha were both born after Blue Peter, so your working week shifted, and so the time that you'd have when you were doing Blue Peter and going through the divorce and it was just the two of us,

as you say, it's unrepeatable but actually my memory of that, even though I can understand that it's different, it just shows you that so long as you're doing your best and you're still keeping good communication with your child and spending time together and making them feel safe and loved.

There's so much about it that you probably would have, at the time, felt really guilty about, but actually it just doesn't stay as an overwhelming theme. I can't remember things like that. That's really good. That's genuinely really good to hear. I mean, I know that because, you know because every other weekend you went to your dad's, so those were my weekends of more extensive play. And also, you know, Grandma and Grandpa, my parents, were living around the corner.

Well, yeah, I was going to ask you about Grandma and Grandpa because Grandma sadly died when I was 11, so I still even now feel like it's such a loss to me. I would love to have had that relationship going forward and she would have had such fun with her career she would have absolutely loved it yeah and it would be lovely seeing her with with all her grandbabies as well yeah great grandbabies yeah um but when when you were young grandma worked didn't she no not till I was 16.

Oh, really? Oh, I didn't realise that. No, because, you know, Grandma was in the army, so we were moving around, and in those days, army wives just stuck with their partners and had to land somewhere completely new and establish new friendships and were definitely kept in the house. I don't remember a single one of the women then working,

not even in a dilettante, you know, making cushion covers for other women. Nothing. They did nothing. They did nothing. And they did nothing with exactly the same set of people. It's a really, it's so specific. There are probably some elements of it that survive now. But it's funny, a friend of mine is going out with a chap in the army and they are going to stay on his base in this country and she is looking for a job in that area because there's no way that she's not going to work there's no way even if you know they have to move in two years

there's no way she's not going to work but that was very now my mother married young obviously because she had me at 23 so she had been a nurse and then gave everything up. I see, I didn't realise that. So she nursed before she had you? Yes. Oh, yeah. And then, I mean, way before she got married, she left. She became an army wife.

That must have been about two minutes then if she was already... Yeah, well, from 17. Wow. Yeah. But what I feel now that I, again, can't sort of say to her is, you poor girl, because she ended up with these, she had no parents by then. Well, her father died when I was three, so effectively,

and also she was abroad. And her sister, Auntie Betty, to whom she was very close, lived on the other side of the world. So there was this really young woman, newly a mother, sort of in this weird situation of not really connecting to anybody around. And grandpa, also parentless by then. And his only brother, my uncle John, died when I was five five was killed in a car accident so you know at the time of course they were just my parents but I look back and think by the time he was 29 grandpa had lost everybody in his family Wow

everybody so there were that these sort of rudderless orphans really yes really adrift they must have been really adrift so it's it's some testament to both they're very very different strengths of character that they didn't manage to hold us down you know they did well i wonder even though on the surface of it um being very ambitious and working and deciding to you know go for your career alongside raising children would seem incredibly different to what grandma was doing but then the nature of your work means that you actually have to do a similar thing

of setting up camp and establishing whatever you're doing in the here and now as home and as working. So there's sort of... It's actually not maybe as dissimilar. If you had more of a sort of stable nine-to-five job, it's slightly different. Yes.

But because with acting and presenting, your life is whatever your current project is yeah yeah so it's sort of and you have to make new friends within that environment absolutely and you do it really quickly yeah yeah it's quite artificial but also very good fun and you also um you bond over this common project as well which i've always found really exciting i don't know if i'd have felt the same about working alongside having a family if I was doing something that required me to just be away every single day. And I've never done anything other than marvel at that, really, because the great thing about acting is that you get lots of time when you're not.

It's called unemployment, basically. There's no resting, there's no euphemism. The only good thing is that right the way through my acting career, there were very few times when I didn't know when my next job was coming, even if it was three or four months off. And to an actress, having a job three or four months off means you are employed. So you're just going towards that point.

Somebody somewhere wants you to do the thing you say you do, which is very satisfying. But I'm sort of thinking, you know, I was doing plays and stuff as well. You know, I was working in... When's that? Sorry. When you were little, you know, in that time. Yes, yes, you were.

Before Blue Peter, you and I went to Leeds and Harrogate and the Royal Exchange and the Orange... I mean, I was all over the shop, really. Yes, doing a lot. I was doing a lot. You didn't seem to have any guilt about any of this. I do have guilt. I do have guilt. Do you really?

Yeah, of course I do. Of course. Yes, yes. I don't think that there's any parent who doesn't get simultaneously handed a small parcel weighing approximately six pound four ounces and an equally measured parcel of guilt you are who gets it right even even the things that you're really enjoying or thinking is this is this really what i should be doing you know if it's letting your children run a bit wild are you doing that right if you're reining them in a bit is that right you know you're never i don't think going to get to a point where you think, I've really got the balance right. Yeah. I would quite like to meet those people and also not.

Yeah, I know. Because I can't imagine being friends with them. Yeah. But I, no, I'm massively guilty about it. But I'm guilty in a kind of retrospective allowance. I'm probably quite generous with myself, too, in that what else could I have done yeah I think that's I think you have to be a bit like that actually otherwise it yeah it's a sort of pointless feeling that doesn't go anywhere isn't it and I think was it tricky then to talk to

grandma about about working and raising a young child if she hadn't really experienced the same thing no she was she was very excited about what i was actually doing which is a big help that's you know she was um in fact when she died grandpa said to me you have lost your biggest fan oh which is true but also she was pretty good at just spotting when things were going a bit wild you know and just saying remember, remember so if he's any little, remember not in, I can't remember any, I can remember

one or two but I wouldn't say, I think there are there are times when she definitely got hold of me and said it's all very well, all this but this bit's really important and that only needed to happen briefly for me to know she was right.

Yeah. And I would have been, I think, aware of it too. Yeah. Because there is a kind of, I think anyone who's gone through a divorce feels slightly wired on the other side of it. You know, you've been through something very traumatic. Well, obviously you'd started going out with my dad

when you were only 16. Yeah, exactly. So there's a lot of living that you'd given to your marriage. Exactly, yes. And suddenly you don't have to adhere to that anymore. And promises that you make to someone who you love very much and with whom you have the prospect of a shared future, and suddenly that's all changed.

And you feel, I remember thinking, oh, now I'm just, I'm that divorced woman. And having an idea that was still based on something I'd probably thought about when I was 10 about what that felt like and even now I think you know when people are going through it I think of course it's a if it's a necessary evil you need to do it but I I want to just hug them and say it's it's not going to be fun not for a long time it's not going to be fun and it's hard and the the really sad thing about it all is that obviously both robin and i now happily remarried have other families you know we share

all of that with you but what we don't share are memories of you and and i know that that's a to me that's a massive loss all those things about having a small person that you kind of remember and repeat and go oh do you remember so if you always used to do and of course you know we can occasionally when we're together we do see each other but we can't do that in terms of your babies or you know and i miss that i miss that a lot i miss that a lot that's a big loss yeah and i think that's something that we can really understand because you spend a lot of time when you're, you know, in a committed relationship with someone,

raising kids, harking back to the things and they become part of your vernacular and part of the way your family relate to each other, don't they? Yes. They still do that thing they did when they were four. Exactly. But if it was three of you and then you go back to the two of you, you've lost that.

I mean, luckily, from the age of seven, when John and i met um at least we have that you know yeah we do we do pick up the pieces again and and that period it's so intense isn't it that time when it was just you and me two years yeah pretty intense definitely intense um but then it was also not i don't know if intense is the right word but definitely quite uh dramatic because when you got together with john which is when you were still presenting blue peter um you then got pregnant with my brother jack pretty quickly pretty quickly yeah very well three months so i'm so bad at timelines but uh the the nuts and bolts of it are that John and I weren't actually living together at the time. And left to his own devices, he might never have changed that.

I asked him out, after all, so I've definitely taken the lead. Yeah. Did you not know that? I don't think I did, actually. Oh, yeah. He says he would have got around to it. Is this through mutual friends we met through a guy who was directing on Blue Peter okay who was uh pretty very

entertaining very very smart he and John had been at university together uh not somebody I'd necessarily trust with my relationship choices who kept saying you've got to meet my friend John and I kept thinking Richard if you recommend somebody um here are the hills and there I run because you wouldn't know uh but we did we met over a Sunday lunch and I had you with me and my abiding memory of that is that we were in this sort of brasserie place probably one of the early brasseries and you had a doll with you and the waiter thought it was funny to sort of take away your doll and pretend that he was going to my whole focus that lunch was on you i remember that anyway and and i hope that would have been the case but i remember thinking then don't play like that with a kid you

know this is very little child i used to hate that i think you're more cross actually you know but it's a puzzle isn't it why why is somebody doing that some total stranger thinks it's funny to go oh you want your doll back I don't think so I think she's coming to France with me all that nonsense but John was there and you know I thought he was a nice chap but it wasn't a particular sort of across the table thing I think there were about 10 of us anyway and then this chap Richard and I went on holiday together with his then partner, David. And that was a very happy holiday. I remember David teaching you to float. And we just had a nice time.

And we didn't do anything beyond lie about much. You know, obviously, I wouldn't have wanted to go out in the evenings. I just remember it was being a really relaxing, lovely Greek holiday. And when we came back from the holiday, the chef said to me, I think we should go and dress said to me i think we should i think we should go and dress up somewhere i think we should go and have sunday lunch somewhere smart you know because we spent two weeks wearing shorts or whatever and um so we agreed to go up for a sunday lunch i think it was the savoy or the dorchester one of those and he said i'm going to

bring my friend john so we all went out and john just made me laugh a lot. He was very funny. And then we went back to Richard and David's flat. And as we were leaving and I was saying goodbye to my friend, I said, oh, can I have John's number? I might call him. And I did the next day. The only thing that's slightly embarrassing about this story, because I don't mind that, that's fine, you know, and I'm slightly puzzled now when very young people

still wait for the bloke to take the lead. Oh, for goodness sake, girls. but i was then doing blue peter which meant that every single monday and thursday i was in the studio and it was a live show and we didn't have autocue so you had to learn your script the night before the program so pretty much for the whole of the four years sundays and wednesdays were fenced off to me you know i didn't go out i didn't do anything that's fine and um very occasionally if i was filming or something i didn't do anything that's fine and um very occasionally if i was filming or something i'd be back late but that was a bore because then you had this huge script and minnie baxter the then editor quite rightly gave no kind of leeway the fact that

you might not have come back from wherever it was in scotland and it was the bbc's it wasn't exactly first class travel you know she was the studio queen and she just wanted it all right in the studio which is fine and um so i rang down and he was at that point a researcher on a film program so i said you know do you want to go to the cinema and i had a little list of current films and as i recited this list to john he said well i've seen that you have seen it because he used to go to screeners as a film researcher so I didn't take the hint at all we ended up going to see Alien 2 plus I said to him you know um I'm okay you know I haven't got anything on this week apart from you know I never do anything Sunday or Wednesday and And he said, the only night I'm free is Wednesday. So I went out with him on a Wednesday.

Because I thought, so looking back, he was probably trying to say, I don't want to go to cinema and don't want to go out. But I ignored that. And then, as you say, I rushed things through, rushed things through by discovering that I was pregnant and I haven't again planned it again because it's running theme it's running theme and how did you feel about telling work about that well it was easier than telling John well it's funny they used to have this thing at the time just shows how old-fashioned it was that

periodically the press searching for a story would ring the office and say oh i've heard janet's pregnant sometimes anyway they do anyway oh anyway and i was sort of aware of this and i thought what i don't want is to put anyone in the position of lying about this so um I thought I better tell Biddy I was off to do some filming though in the Gabon which I really wanted to do it was for one of the appeals so I waited until after that and luckily that did work out the only thing was that I went off alcohol it was about I think the trip was probably about seven days something like was that I went off alcohol. I think the trip was probably about seven days, something like that. And I went off alcohol pretty quickly, which is a nuisance,

because when you're filming something like that, there's nothing better than a cold beer in the evening. So I was resorting to drinking these kind of lime sodas and things. But, you know, obviously, it means to an end and all that. And then when I came back, I then went and told Biddy. And actually, to give her credit, she said to me, to an end and all that and then when I came back I then went and told Biddy and actually to be to be um to give her credit she said to to me um oh good another viewer that was her reaction yeah and I said you know sort of fudging over slightly the details of my home life

little little brother or sister for Sophie um due in August. And then there was a slight question mark over whether they would issue another contract to me. And they didn't. And at the time, I thought, that's the right thing, because it was hard enough doing Blue Peter with a young child, but it was too. Of course, nowadays, you just think, make it work, guys. And in fact, people who've been on Blue Peter since

have had babies and carried on, and that's kind of how it should be. It should be your choice anyway. So it does feel like a lot has changed. It has. I mean, the good thing is I was allowed to be pregnant as well. Yeah, I was allowed to be pregnant. You know, I was very hugely pregnant by the time I left.

And I did have a very nice last year, because then I was presenting with Karen Keating and Mark Curry and they used to have to go up and do their sort of high up cold dangerous things then it would come back to me in the studio going gosh that looked hard it was a biscuit no it was a it was happy it was happy and once John's once the colour returned to John's cheeks... Was he really shocked? He was really shocked. Oh, wow. He was really shocked. Because you know what he's like when he's shocked?

He doesn't say anything, which is worse than somebody kind of exploding. And I told him we were going off for a New Year thing in Switzerland, and I remember quite a long train journey. We flew to Milanan we had two days in milan or something and um then we traveled up to zermatt and i remember being on a train from milan to zermatt without him speaking oh wow it's quite a long journey that is a long journey it's a long journey did he deal with the news the news of Martha three years later a little bit better? Yes, because Martha is in the very unusual position in my family of being a planned baby.

Wow. A planned baby. So, yeah, the only thing that wasn't planned about her, of course, is the fact that she was due in February and arrived in December. But, yeah, she was officially a planned baby. Yeah. So, yeah. due in February and arrived in December but yeah she was she was officially a planned baby yeah so yeah and then I tried to have a fourth baby and had a lot of miscarriages a lot a lot but yeah yeah that must have been awful it must have been mustn't it but I don't know

what I did then to not make it as awful as it could have been. I think you're very good at that. I think as a family, we're quite good at that, actually. Getting on, getting on. Yes, a sort of general thing. I suppose I've always hated the idea of anyone feeling sorry for me about things. So I always try and set the tone, everything's all right, thanks. And even that might not be what I wanted to happen that is what happened so what's the point of dwelling and I also think emotions like um regret or being uncomfortable with how things went I for me I know you can't help how you feel but I suppose they serve me so little purpose and I so resent feeling that way that I'll sort of push it down as much as I can anyway.

Yeah, that is definitely who I am. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. And I just, I think it's probably not very healthy, but it's just how, well, actually, I don't know. It's the only way we live, isn't it? I don't know.

Because along the way, when things happen that you might not have thought you'd cope with, then I think I surprise myself at the fact I do and then like you I think is this right then am I should I should I get some help with this yeah but although I'm hugely in favor of therapy for people who find it useful for me it has either two resonances it would either be to answer a question i couldn't answer myself or to help with the situation where i was just spinning like a little top and i could not stop it and it wasn't getting me anywhere yeah but i've so far let's find a hefty chunk of wood i've never felt that you know if somebody told me that i'd lose my mother at 35, you know, when she was only in her 50s,

I would have thought that would be unbearable. Yeah. If somebody told me how many miscarriages I would have, I would have thought, well, I won't get through that. But it isn't a source of pride that I did. It's just a matter of factness about it that at the time I was totally concerned that my three children would not think of me as someone in an out-of-hospital or under-baby. I was also, probably for Jack too, but I think I put it much more to you and Martha, that I didn't want you to think that's what childbirth was about. I didn't want you to think that.

I think what happened to me was deeply unusual and odd and certainly didn't make me think any of you would have exactly the same thing happen I think it was a combination of circumstances but I also like you I don't revisit things very much I don't because I'm such a believer in the here and now and in the practicalities of the here and now and trying to enjoy the pleasure of the here and now because I have a slight tendency to think if I'm feeling happy or things are going well that some weird karmic nonsense is going to punish me for that. And I've had to work quite hard on that for myself.

Yes, I feel a bit like that too. Yeah, I don't know if it's a sort of being a slight catastrophist or a sort of, I think I remember you meant describing traumatic events as being like a having like concentric circles so everything is like leading up to that point or for things afterwards and so I sometimes wonder where I am in the what circle I'm in yeah which is I don't know if I suppose I imagine most people live like that but but then maybe they don't I feel like most people probably have that, but then maybe they don't. I feel like most people probably have that impending doom kind of a feeling,

but I'm so used to it, I don't really question it. Yeah, it's more a direct punishment almost, as though the fates are waiting and going, you think this is going well? And actually, what's ludicrous about that is that I'm a humanist through and through. You know know I completely get all my comfort from the fact that this is all there is you know I don't want any spiritual

connection with people past because the way that they live for me is entirely in my head and in remembering shared experiences I don't I don't think they're all waiting I don't think they are um so i i usually like to think about how being a mum has been as influenced when you do creative things but obviously with your creativity it all it looks like that was kind of pretty much going on the same track with the things you wanted to do um and it wasn't really directly influenced by the fact you had me or had Jack? No, I think that's right for you too, isn't it, really, that you express yourself creatively, but the things you're expressing aren't necessarily even what you're feeling at the time.

They can be sparked by something else. They can be sparked by something you either fear or celebrate, but they're not necessarily, I must write a song about my children you know they're not on the other hand it's it's nice to have that sense of not an appreciative audience but certainly people that it matters to yeah you know then they're not going to feel the same about it but they will know how you feel and they can kind of pat you on the back a bit or yeah or support you when things don't go as well as you'd hoped. But you've recently started writing books, just in the last...

So when did The Butcher's Hook come out? That's maybe... 16. Okay. So is that something that you think has sort of taken shape like that because of, you know, just other things that have been happening in your life? Or do you think sometimes if you hadn't had a young family you were raising, you know, while other things were going on, you you might have written sooner I'm glad I didn't I'm really glad I didn't I've wanted to for so long and been very very

afraid of it for as long and I think I would have I think I would have been much more self-aware and wanted to write to please somebody or something. And also, I have a really lovely and different creative freedom now because I'm not thinking all the time, if this doesn't work, we can't eat. And it's really lucky that. And any writer, not in my position, who listens to this will throw heavy objects because for a lot of people it matters in that way.

And I have that restriction. That's the only one, but that restriction lifted, which is, to me, really huge, really huge. Because it means I don't have the same thing about deadlines. I don't have the same thing about how many copies might be sold. You know, obviously, I do really want people to buy the books and hopefully like them. But I don't think I've literally got a financial investment in the same way that some people have. And I do feel genuinely blessed for that.

And I also feel that because I left it so long when I wrote a book I genuinely wrote exactly what I wanted to rather than thinking oh I hope this doesn't upset anyone which is just as well or you know I hope they I hope they sort of you know they get this in the way they get me because if you have any sort of television persona, people invest what they think you are. That's fine and that's been very enjoyable because luckily my television self is quite a nice woman. However, the books aren't very nice at all and I think I've got to be much more high bound into thinking, what are they going to like, whatever that is.

Because along the way, whenever I'd done any writing at all, which is journalism or something, and people had said, oh, you know, you're quite a good writer. Have you ever thought about writing a children's book? And the only agent who approached me before my agent actually took me on was years ago, who said, you know, why don't you write, I don't know, you know, children's presenter turned detective kind of thing.

And I thought, because I don't read those books. And I could probably do quite a good imitative stab of it at it, but I really wanted to write this book that got pulled out of me like a muscle from a shell. Yeah, that's nice. That's a nice feeling. Different. Different. a shell yeah that's nice it's a nice feeling different yeah um and when you're when you've got um seeing your own children become parents like am i the sort of mother that you thought i would be does that make sense you're much better ah that's like a backhand economy i guess

the bar was pretty low i hadn't i hadn't I hadn't imagined you'd be anything other than really loving which is number one um what I'm really impressed by with you as a mum is that you are so generous with your time with them and I'm I I don't know if I could have done that in the same way I can't I can't remember a time when I've ever heard you even say to the children, no, I'm tired, I won't do that now. And when you come back from work... That has definitely happened, by the way. Not in my hearing.

And certainly they obviously don't think it's going to happen. And I've been there when you've come in from a trip to Russia or something, which has involved 26 internal flights and being never in the same time zone so effectively performing at four in the morning our time and then getting on a plane and coming back and the minute you're in the house it's as if you have just walked out from getting the milk and you just go back into family life which is really impressive really impressive and it you don't just do it in a kind of you know oh yes i'm here now what do you want little person you know you just shed that shed work and go right back into it

which they will never know how lucky that is they don't know anything else but it is really lucky plus you are incredibly good at seeing them all you know having the one thing that i'm sure people say stupid things to you about having five children but you know i i will say oh yes my eldest has got five they go oh five you know and they're already imagining some sort of i don't know chaos like like opening the door of something and it's little animals jumping and then you know all boys they say um you know wonderingly i think yeah but what you've actually got are five people you spend different amounts of time with, and some of the time they have to do, you know,

with a baby in the house, the house always has to go to that rhythm pretty much because the baby's timetable is demanding. But on the other hand, you know, I know, because I spend a lot of time with them, that none of them feel cheated of your time or your focus on them. You know, they know, you know who they are, all of them.

And I think that that stops that sort of lumping together, you know, the boys or, you know, the brothers. They're not that, you know. They are all so completely, wonderfully individual. And they could not be like that if they weren't encouraged to be. You don't give them a kind of team thing. We all have to do this because that works best for all of us. There's no kind of average for them.

So they can be incredibly expressive, sometimes too much so. Yeah, don't I know. But then I think we were raised like that. I really hope so. I really hope so. Yeah. I really hope so. Because I know that long before I had children, I used to think, I know I'm going to love my children. I hope we like each other. Because I've always been aware that it's not a given.

It's not, you know, it's just a kind of luck, isn't it, really? Because you can produce people who have diametrically opposing views or who regard you in a particular way that you have to get past. And, you know, I think it's really lucky if... And I felt the same with my parents. I thought if I met them independently, what nice people. So, you know, that would be my biggest gift to myself is that there wasn't always, obviously a lot of the time there is,

but there wasn't always a sense of obligation about seeing me. No. No, but it's so nice that we live near each other it's very nice yeah and I was thinking actually how it must have been so hard for you when you had Martha and grandma wasn't there because I I rely so heavily on our relationship and speaking to you about things and I I can't imagine what it must be like to think oh I want to ask my mum about that it was weird it was weird it all happened so quickly too because she'd had breast cancer I really am so bad at time like let's say three years before and then began to get complications and then was diagnosed with secondaries which in those days didn't bode well. So for the last year of her life, she was only 57.

She deteriorated rapidly, couldn't really leave the house. And I was aware, because she didn't live that far away. She lived about 20 minutes away. Yeah, I remember. But I was aware of the fact that she, for the person who's that ill, the outside world stops being relevant in a weird way. You know, you still want to know what's going on, but it's absolutely like looking at it through different glass.

You know, there it all is, and that's fine, but it doesn't involve you. And we both knew she wouldn't meet Martha. We both knew that. Yeah, even with Martha hastening into the world a bit soon. But actually, that's the other thing about how you dealt with having the boys so ill when they were born. That was amazing. Because that is really hard. Yeah. But then I did have a good example of Martha, you know, being born 10 weeks early and, you know, coming out the other side and being bright and bonny and happy,

like the happiest little thing. Harder with Kit, though. Kit was ill. He was ill, yes. Yeah, I definitely... I'm glad I had my premature babies first because then it meant I didn't have anything to compare it to. Well, that's true. Although, funnily enough, I thought the other way round.

I thought, at least I know this is going to be OK because it's hard, isn't it, having a kid when the nurses who are dealing with them know much more about your baby than you do. Yeah. And all the instruments and dials and tubes and knobs and things. You know, and I remember when Martha was, she was going to be in hospital about four days or something, and one of the nurses said, you know, do you want to change her nappy?

I thought, I really don't. Look at it. You know, it's really hard to get to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you'll be quicker at it than me and I will have lots of that you know there won't be a time when I'm not changing and happy yeah well um I know that I I've been thinking a lot as well about when um having small children and your work um can be quite uh the two worlds collide, they can sometimes, I mean, I've had some very stressful experiences with the kids when I'm trying to do work things

and it's just a nightmare. I remember one time when I went to V Festival with, I think it was when, might have been The Feeling playing and me, but we definitely, one of us had a gig, Richard and I, and Sonny had his first ever Fanta and went completely crazy. I mean, he was four.

I've never seen... Oh, it was awful. He was just running around the whole field and then Richard was trying to do a TV interview and Sonny just sort of gate-crashed it and sat on the sofa and put sunglasses on and took Richard's hat off his head. It just all really...

It doesn't matter, but you feel it does. Yeah, and I was stood on the side thinking, am I supposed to go in and get him? Yeah. But I already stood on the side thinking, am I supposed to go in and get him? Yeah. But I already know that I caused you issues because when you were in a play, and I must have been about two or three, and you had to be asleep.

I think it was mid-Summer Night's Dream. It's very key that Hermia is asleep for quite a lot of it, yeah, and you shouted, wake up, mummy. Did people laugh? No, they thought there's a child in here. I think they did laugh. I think they did laugh. And do you remember, I was appearing with the father

of one of your friends. Kiraly's dad was in it as well. Really? He definitely laughed. Okay, I didn't actually know that. Yeah. Oh, that's funny. Yeah.

Yeah, he definitely laughed. Sorry about that. And there was another time I remember, oh, my God, when I was doing Blue Peter and I had to go filming in Liverpool. You were ill. And you were running a temperature. And we were doing... It was during the holidays. And it was... So there were lots of children around as well.

And for some reason, I was dressed as Alice in Wonderland. Yeah. And I kept coming back to you and just sort of giving you more cowpaw. And then thinking, this is not right. This is not the best mothering I could do because my little girl is actually quite ill. And I couldn't do it. I felt as though I couldn't do anything about it.

Yeah. At all. No, but then probably me lying down and having cowpaws was probably about the extent of it. You did lie down a lot. You did. But it's funny, isn't it, because then I think, what happened next?

Where did we go? We must have stayed. I can't remember any of it, but I do have a very strong vision of being dressed as Alice in Wonderland and trying to get cowpaw into a very hot child. Aw. Well, it's funny, though, because I remember that vaguely,

but again, I find it all mainly just very reassuring because I feel like there's lots of times where I get that feeling of like thinking, I'm not sure this is the best mothering or everything's a bit teetering on the brink or you're trying to shoehorn one project and trying to keep that kid doing that and all trying to keep it all balanced. And actually I do, it does kind of keep me coming back to the fact, well, I turned out all right and we get on. So it's obviously, so long as the big, the stuff that's in bold headlines is all right.

Yeah. And I think it's okay. That's true. Although I do think I should take this opportunity to apologise for the selling of the Blue Peter badges in the playground because I don't think I've ever done anything quite as crass as that. I hope not. Well, I don't know.

Not long after John and I got together, which of course we did, he came home from work one day to find you because we then decided that the little house in St Margaret's that I'd seen we would move into and while we were waiting for it to be done

because it was a bit of a wreck we lived in his tiny flat in Bell Street really tiny flat and he came home from work and you were playing the recorder it was a first floor window out of the window and on the, it was a first floor window, out of the window and on the street below was a Tupperware container with a note and your handwriting

saying, money here for the recorder player. Empty books, I'm pretty sure. Well, he came in with it thinking, you know, because for John it was such a crash course in having children anyway. Yes, well, yeah, the first present I got from John was amas present of happy birthday jane balloons i don't think he had a lot of experience with children funny yeah it wasn't it wasn't i get it now

he thought it would be funny that is terrible actually isn't it it's okay i forgive you both okay oh thank you so much talking to me about all this mom it's actually been really lovely to think about that time of your life because you don't really think you often get the chance to chat again about no and it's well it's good to put it in one place and lay it all out as as difficult as some of it was and say was it okay and to hear that it mostly was yeah yeah it's more than okay and angela's just woken up like as if as if yeah as if she's got an inner time angela angela i'll just cover her ears angela will never be her mother oh no poor doggie she looks all right all of our nanny isn't she

i think whatever your parents do always influences you, but it must be quite a specific type of influence on your small people if you happen to be presenting a very popular TV programme that is aimed at the same age demographic as the small person you're raising. I mean, I know from my point of view, Blue Peter was so massive, and everybody from my class would go home and we'd all watch you on the TV. Was it quite strange for you?

Or did you not, I mean, sort of, were you not able to get into how I might have been feeling too much? Well, to be honest, because I'd been doing telly since you were tiny, that wasn't, as far as you were concerned, I don't think that was that big a deal initially even when i first got blue peter you were you were too young for the program itself anyway because strictly speaking it's aimed at eight to twelve year olds obviously it has a slightly wider catchment but that's that's where the the thrust of the program is and i think it wasn't

till older kids started picking up on it that it was a problem for you because I think your peer group would not really you know their brothers and sisters might have been watching it but they wouldn't have been and their parents might have reacted a bit but luckily we lived in quite a sort of media gulch over there anyway so there were other actresses and presenters and writers and things so you know it wasn't that much of a rarity but I do remember that probably when you were must have been really late on you know so towards because you were only eight when I left probably so probably when you were eight being in a shop with you and some kids came in and you picked something up and said do we need one of these Janet Ellis and I thought ah and up until then, I genuinely thought

you weren't really that aware of it. You were aware of the fact that you'd met Philip Schofield when other people hadn't, and that was a big deal. You were aware of that. Obviously, you came into the studio a couple of times. Although, weirdly, in the way of sort of... It used to be a lot of children to be represented when I was little, actually.

I was quite starstruck regularly. It's all the people you watch when you go home. It's quite funny. That's true. But that was the first time I thought that you had made that sort of connection to me. I think up till then it had been my job rather than it being about me at all.

And yeah, I do remember you, because they had a very odd attitude really towards me having a child. It was sort of initially acknowledged, probably if you dig deep into the newspaper coverage of my arrival because that wasn't news in those days um there was probably mention of it but only glancingly and there was no there was no sort of interest that nobody came around and took photos of you nobody thought oh this was all pre-paparazzi anyway so

nobody was that interested and then um it wasn't it wasn't a kind of because it was a children's program it wasn't a kind of odd fame in that i wasn't sort of doing something that was so weirdly away from anything you might understand so it sat alongside to me as angela sniffing into the microphone yeah she did a bit you can have your say in a minute yeah you can actually no you can't but um you know because it was a children's program it ran alongside your timetable you know so even if i hadn't had a child i would have been totally aware of when school holidays were you know mother's day all that kind of thing because that's all we talked about for a year but equally the fact that i was

a parent was never acknowledged you know the only times you were ever in the studio was once when I did a make and you poor little thing you had to wear a snood made out of a J cloth or a cloth like this obviously because BBC. And then the only other time

I didn't even know it was a J cloth. It was a J cloth. And the only other time Poor me. Weirdly enough I didn't even do the item. Karen did the item.

The one with the bin bag dress? The one with the bin bag dress. I really lucked out in the fashion department. Really? Amazing. So I used to wash up dishes and then put the rubbish in. Yeah. No wonder they were struggling to find someone.

Not struggling for viewers, though. But it is weird, isn't it, that you'd think now, if somebody was presenting a children's programme and had a child, that reference would be made from time to time but yeah we never did we never did but i think in terms of home life stuff i mean i i don't think it's a coincidence that you did something that made you very famous when i was young and then i ended up going into something that's in the public eye because i mean i'm when we had my i suppose it must be my seventh or eighth birthday

we went to madden two swords and you were able to make us skip the whole queue and go straight in I mean, when we had my, I suppose it must have been my seventh or eighth birthday, we went to Madden Two Swords and you were able to make us skip the whole queue and go straight in. That is quite cool, actually. I thought it was the best thing ever. I mean, that was just so glamorous. It is. And that poor little friend of yours was terrified, not of the Chamber of Horrors, but of the Battle of Trafalgar exhibit.

Yes. Really scared of that. Well, that was quite, I remember that actually. They had noise and things, didn't they? And sort of gun smoke and... Yeah, but it wasn't the Chamber of Horrors. No.

Yeah, poor little thing. Yeah. Yeah, we could probably do another four hours on children's parties, couldn't we? Oh, yeah. I know, it's funny.

I was thinking the other day when I was organising Kit's 11th birthday and I thought, I didn't realise how much event planning I'd have to do as a parent. You know, because it's funny. I was thinking that the other day when I was organising Kit's 11th birthday and I thought, I didn't realise how much event planning I'd have to do as a parent. You know, because it's quite a big deal to organise anything. You know, if you have to, I don't know,

organise your own birthday party, it feels like, oh, OK, there's the people and who said yes. But then with five kids, you know, there's five extra birthday parties. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, on Kit's one, you know, I hired a hauler and he had an entertainer and it was all really lovely and we'd done these really cool little going home presents

of little minifigures, Kit's minifigures. They were so sweet. At the end of the birthday I said to him, do you have a good time today, Kit? He went, yeah. It wasn't the best. Oh. It's like, oh. Yeah.

There was one where we took a whole load of kids when Jack was still at primary school, so let's say nine, to the science museum. And because there was countable numbers, we thought, oh, well, why don't we just, why don't we get a minibus? Why don't we do a minibus? That'd be quite fun.

They can all get on a minibus. And we all went on the minibus to the science museum and then we all came back on the minibus. One of these kids went, oh, it's just like a school trip. I thought, well, it, no, it isn't because we've really thought about this. And also it's more comfortable for you like this. Also it's just like a school trip I thought well it I know it isn't because we've really thought about this yeah so it's more comfortable for you like this also it's cost me

money yes also it's not oh but then but the good thing about having um three children with quite a big age gap is that you could then when I got old enough use me to take the kids to their birthday parties I'm thinking mainly of when I had to take Martha, aged, I think, six or seven, and three of her mates in a stretch limo to see five in concert. I remember waving you off. Waving you off and then coming back in the house and having a glass of wine.

I think I did all their makeup before we left as well. Yes, you did. Yeah. It was the proper outing, yeah. You don't even see stretch limos now do you they're just gone where are they all consigned yeah it's true actually used to see about five a week yeah um that and the ceramic cafe yeah oh yeah i think those still exist do they yeah they were the party du jour for a while weren't they they really i think the stretch they're quite

impractical aren't they and i feel like wherever you're going it takes much longer, especially if you're going to Wembley to see Five. Yeah, that must have been quite a stretch, I'm afraid. They're going to see Hanson with Jack

when, for Martha, you know, who was a big Hanson fan and Jack came along as well and I think, I think he was the only boy. Really?

Yeah, it's just a sea of little girls yeah he took it well yeah yeah but yeah I like I say I don't I didn't think that you thought that what I did was anything different because that's all I'd ever done so you know and and also it was all I'd ever done and my only audience were children. Yes. So I thought it must have been quite weird when I went to things and other children wanted to say hello all the time.

Yeah, whenever you got mobbed, it was where people my height. Yeah. But also, I did, you know, for better or worse, I learned quite early as well the sort of currency of, you know, if I said, oh, my name's Sophie and my mum presents Blue Peter, people seemed to want to be my friend a bit quicker. That was awful, though. Yeah.

Well, initially it would mean we'd become friends, but then after a little minute they'd realise, hang on a minute, there's more of us without that happening than with you, and I'd feel like there was a bit of ganging up that would happen. I do remember that. It was literally the against Sophie club. It was. Not a vast membership, but nevertheless

the fact that they even thought that was a title. At least it's something I've been able to tell my kids because primary school and secondary school introduces some horrible situations and horrible social dynamics and being able to say to them look there's literally been an against sophie club when i was at school you can't really top that for you can be called but that's really and also they they do see you dealing with it you know i think you're very easy with it

you know you you still traveled by public transport. But not only that, if somebody comes up to you, you give them that moment, you know, but you don't actually shun them or make it plain that you'd really rather not. And, you know, I think it's good for your boys to see that as well. Yeah, and we don't talk about it. I mean, when I'm home, I don't... They don't really want to hear about my day.

They just want to hear about their day. And I think that's the thing that I've always really loved about having a slightly silly job. And that thing you were saying earlier about, you know, when I come in and you can just sort of shed whatever's going on in my life. But I actually think that's very good for my head because, you know, it takes everything back to what's going on in their world. And I think it's just a healthier way to be, really.

I don't really want to spend a lot of time thinking about, you know, what it's like to be me when I'm at home. I don think that's good i don't want to be that kind of person so i'd rather think about what they're doing yeah no they certainly get that definitely no i think i think overall there's a lot about how we are as as parents that's very very similar um that's probably why we've always been so close and why i still value your advice above all else and also it's you know you are genuinely very good at advising so much so that even Richard said you've never said anything he doesn't agree with. Good Lord.

I know. That's on tape now. Yeah, it is on tape. Really? Good Lord. Yeah. That's pretty nice. I know, really nice. That's pretty nice.

Yeah. That's something I might test. Or use. Go for it. No, that is good. that's something I might test or use go for it no that is good but then the lucky thing is that what you're doing

with your children is what I hope I would have done with you you know it's a similar sort of feeling about

supporting and loving and indulging and also I remember this lovely quote from you know Daisy Haggard you know who I mean the girl who did After Life I think it's called where she played the woman who came out of prison

oh yes i know you're talking about and she's in a new thing now uh and about being a parent and she said she's got very small children and she said you know the thing that the thing that she's making with martin freeman is actually about not really enjoying parenthood but she said i just i just love it you know she said she said, my husband and I, we're not, we're sort of idiots. And now we've got two more real idiots in the house. That's so lovely, isn't it? They just love these people

that were not quite people yet. Yeah. Because that is the thing about having children, isn't it? There's this extraordinary new person coming in with all their strange ideas and appetites and abilities and, you know, sitting their own way around on the loo. I mean, they are completely, they are not idiots exactly,

but they are just new. And I find that intoxicating. Yeah, definitely. I think that's what I've loved about having so many is each one comes along and you think, oh, how are they going to change everything? What are they going to bring to the party? That's what I like about being a grandparent too,

that you get this chance to read all the books again and explore things again and hear all those strange opinions again. Because I know when you first had Sunny, there were a few people saying to me, you know, you won't want to be called Grandma, will you? You know, what are you going to do? And I thought, you bet I am.

First of all, Grandma is the name I've bagged. And second, I don't want anyone to mistake this relationship and in fact when you were and she's getting so close when you were in I know she's getting now no it's okay um when you were in hospital after you'd had Sonny and I came in to see you um one of the a nurse came up to me and said, where's your baby? Or something like that about my baby. And I thought, I'm so glad that I don't feel it should be. And I had wondered, especially as Sunny was early,

whether or not it would feel a bit odd going in after the last few times I'd been in hospital to do with babies were not particularly happy. And I can say it didn't it did not resonate at all did not thank goodness yeah I know I'm healthy that's well I suppose that's all part of seeing everybody and everything as their own individual story and I you know when Sonny was here he was he was the baby for the whole family not just not just my, you know, that's what I've loved about... So one of the things I wasn't expecting about parenthood is the joy of seeing your child forming relationships

that have nothing to do with you, with other significant people you love in your life. So, you know, what Sonny has with my brother Jack has got nothing to do with me. It's just their own thing, and I really love that. I love the fact that it just grows. And I know you still feel like that. I remember last week when I messaged you to say,

oh, I've just spoken to Jack on the phone and I'm meeting Martha for lunch. And you were like, oh, my heart, or whatever. I thought, yeah, that must actually feel really nice when your kids are still doing things together. All three of you know how much that means to me when we meet up when I haven't actually engineered it. Exactly.

Didn't even need to tell us no that was nice yeah that was actually really nice you had a nice time yeah yeah it was all good

no no I like that I like the idea that you'll be support for each other too yeah where you are now pretty sure

yeah things being out there that's always and forever hello so that was the um the chat that i had with my mum and even before um this week and i'll tell you why that's significant in a minute, but even before what happened this week, I was already feeling a bit emotional about, um, putting out that conversation with my mum because we recorded it back in March. And at that point, I remember hugging her goodbye and then I didn't hug her again for a really long time. I didn't hug her again for a really long time.

It's a real privilege to interview your own parents. What a strange sentence that is, but it is nice to get answers to questions you don't normally ask and to see them in 360 a little bit more. And as you can probably tell from the conversation, my mum and I are very close. We're very lucky. and as you can probably tell from the conversation, my mum and I are very close.

We're very lucky. But this conversation has taken on new significance too because, as you can probably hear, I'm recording in an uncharacteristically quiet house. It's early in the morning. I've got four of my children asleep, and our lovely nanny, I took my little one, Mickey, last night because yesterday my stepdad, John john he died in the morning and um so it's been nice to have a little

bit of time to think and i didn't want to tell you and record a new introduction for the chat this week because i didn't want you to think about that and be crying all the way through like I would have probably done but but it is relevant because my mum and John had the happiest marriage and were such a unit and I don't know I don't really know where I'm going with this but I just thought it was I don't know, strange timing. I've been releasing these conversations slightly out of chronological order because it kind of made sense to me to do that.

I wanted some before lockdown, some after, just to get different perspectives, but I had it in my head, okay, the one with my mum this week. And then John died, and now it's all much more emotional. And then John died, and now it's all much more emotional. Anyway, I will just park it there, I think.

I'm sat here in a quiet room with a cat on my lap and time to think. And thanks for joining me. I will see you again next week. What's up? I love you. I'm not afraid of the dark