Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 51: Katie Piper

Episode Date: January 10, 2022

My guest this week is Katie Piper, who is a lovely woman. In itself this a massive achievement, considering her life story and the continuing challenges she has faced, since she was the victim of an acid attack in 2008. We spoke over zoom and I felt I got to know and like her immensely - and I hope you will feel the same. Katie talked about her love of being busy, her work on many things including the Katie Piper Foundation and how writing a book with her mum made her feel guilty for what her mum had been through. She also spoke about how her two little girls cope with seeing her go through various treatments, and how you can use every situation to your advantage, as an opportunity to start again. It's a privilege to begin the new series of Spinning Plates with our conversation and how brilliant to see her charity work has been recognised with her recently awarded OBE.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Happy New Year my little podcats, how are you? How is 2022 treating you so far? How's your Christmas? Did you manage to have a Christmas? We were very, very lucky and did actually manage to get everybody here, but it was very touch and go

because about just over a week before Christmas, I came down with Omicron along with what felt like pretty much 50% of the people I knew. So the worst thing about it in my experience, because for me it was really mild, was just the fact that I was worried that I suddenly had thrown Christmas into jeopardy. And obviously after last year and not being able to see anybody Christmas Day last year, I really wanted people to be able to come round. So luckily no one else in the family caught it,

which was pretty phenomenal. And then yeah, we managed to have Richard's folks over and my mom and my brother and my sister and his brother and their boyfriend, girlfriend. So yeah, all good, actually. Finally, phew, I hope you had a good one yourself. I know for a lot of people, they found that they couldn't see people. They had COVID. They spent Christmas on their own. And I just hope that whatever happened, however it panned out, I hope you were able to make the best of it. And I think for the most part, 2022 has been quite clever.

This is from my vantage point in London where it started with the blue sky day I don't know about you guys but for me most of December was quite gray and dreary and then it's continued that way all up until today and as I speak to you now we're in the middle of non-stop rain it started really early this morning and it's going to go until tonight and i'm speaking to you from saturday so that's a bit annoying but actually the first few days of 2022 high five to you 2022 lovely weather i like that and i've been in the studio which is a really lovely way to start a new year finishing off some songs that ed and i ed harcourt that is and i've been working on before and also writing a couple of new things and then next week i'm in the studio with the band we'll be doing some

recording and the aim is to record half the album now then i've got some work and other people got some other work and then go back with the band in springtime and finish it so that's exciting that's a nice thing to be looking forward to new stuff on the horizon and everything else is fine it was mickey's third birthday yesterday so my baby is three that feels like quite a big quite significant really uh he's in good spirits we had a nice day out at the natural history museum and yeah everything's kind of chugging along most of the kids are back at school yada yada anyway it's been lovely to get back on the podcast horse there's an image for you um i've already recorded a fair amount of this series with some really incredible conversations i've got some lovely conversations coming up in the diary. And we are starting

with someone I've liked for a really long time. I first started following Katie Piper on Twitter what feels like eons ago. I feel like she was one of the first people I followed. I think I must have been inspired by her after I'd heard about what happened to her in 2008 when she was the victim of an acid attack by an ex-boyfriend and an accomplice and they burned her very badly on her face she lost her sight in one eye due to swallowing some of the acid she had a lot of burns internally um that is something that that is something that is such a pivotal event isn't it and could go in so many directions for people who experience that and I am blown away by Katie actually because even within a year of that attack she'd set up her foundation which is now fast forward to present day just earned her a OBE which has just been awarded in this new year's new year's honors list and yeah she's just kind of phenomenal

actually she's got amazing perspective on life and her own emotions and what drives her and an ability to be reflective about the choices she makes in a way that I don't think everybody is like that, actually. I think, I don't want this to sound really patronising, but she was incredibly emotionally mature, and it's not often you speak to somebody where they have this real insight into how they're acting, and an ability to kind of step back from it and then work out the best course of action based on what would actually be the right thing for them long term. I'm sort of rambling a little bit.

I know that that's not a quality I possess. I tend to be impulsive and hot headed in certain situations and kind of learn later. But I thought Katie just seemed really incredibly level-headed and grounded and wise it was nice to spend some time with that wisdom with our conversation and yeah now we you know we start with her with her little girls two little girls happily married um everything seems to be full systems you know full steam ahead, all systems go. Mixing my metaphors. There's a system and a steam and it was all doing the right stuff. So yes, we refer obliquely to the acid attack, but if you didn't know the events,

that's what happened to her back in 2008 and the other thing we refer to obliquely but I'm going to make it really clear for you now as we speak about how Katie found her faith so while she was in hospital um one of the nurses she was speaking to started talking to her about God and then Katie believed that she was she had a sort of epiphany she really she was so could hear the voice of God and since then has had conversations and support and help and love from that faith that she found and I am not a person of faith myself but I'm always slightly jealous of people who have that in their lives because I think it's an amazing, amazing thing to be carrying you along your journey. So I always find it really inspiring, actually.

Anyway, I will let Katie take over. I think you're going to find this conversation a really lovely start to the new year. And hopefully, like me, you'll come away from listening to her sort of sermon just slightly I don't know I feel like I want to sort of improve certain aspects of how I deal with things because she was so sort of yeah wise about stuff and I know I sound a bit gushy but I don't always feel like that about everybody I speak to I do I just I just got it from her really I really liked her that's probably why I've been following her on Twitter for so long, because she's really lovely.

Anyway, I'll leave you in the conversation's capable hands, and I will see you on the other side. See you in a bit. And what have you got going on at the moment? It's always quite nice to start with the here and now. It sounds like you've already got a lot happening in your life, busy, busy. Yeah, I mean, I like being busy. I think I'm a person that does create busyness, whether that's a good or a bad thing.

So sort of project-wise, I've just released a book a few months ago called A Little Bit of Faith, and that's an affirmation book. So it's a positive kind of mantra or quote so that you can affirm something into your life every single day. I then moved those affirmations into a more creative design space and I started sketching some of them out. I mean, I'm terrible. I'm like GCSE art level. I'm not like a sketch or anything. And I was working with a product house and they said, well, why don't we embroider them onto things, some of these quotes and stuff. And that progressed and progressed, you know, in lockdown, having lots of time.

And I made a 23 piece bedding and linen collection. And it all started as like a passion project, but it's actually gone into Next, House of Fraser, Little Words. And I didn't expect it to kind of be a business really. And it's done. Yeah And it's done really well. The first collection sold out, and I've gone into my next season now. That's so exciting. Yeah, and I've been able to add to it. It's not just affirmation pillowcases.

You know, it's froze cushions, bath towels, whole duvet sets, which is quite funny because it made me feel quite nostalgic because I was thinking about when I was young, and I was obsessed with moving my furniture around in my bedroom to create create newness and I could never afford to like make over the room so my thing would be going to like Argos and buying a bedding set and being like I've revamped my room that was my highlight of uh being a teenager um so yeah the bedding collection the book um it's quite by the way, for a teenager to get excited about buying new bedding. That's quite sad though, isn't it really?

Not even, it's very much appreciated. It's not like every single teenager like, hey guys, I just got myself a great new duvet set. Do you know what I was? I was a really restless teenager that got really bored all the time and always wanted a change of scenery and always seeked excitement sometimes to my detriment and um yeah that excitement sometimes came in in the form of

a new valance for the bed no but I understand that actually the restlessness and the excitement and actually with you saying as well that you like being busy I wonder if if you're like me where you feel like you're inherently actually quite open to being quite lazy and so you put lots of stuff in so that you feel like you haven't got that option yeah it's interesting I think I learned a lot about myself in the first lockdown that um I found it hard not to be busy so I think I wrapped a lot of my um self-worth up in how busy I was, whether that was with work, whether that was family stuff. And it was a form of like identity and status for me. And I struggled with not having it,

which I realised was quite unhealthy really. And it's so fragile as well because all those things can be quite temporary. I suppose as we've all seen in the last 18 months. Yeah, I think actually what you've said is really true, that it's a way of self-worth. I think what you said about being busy is a way of sort of keeping yourself, yeah, giving you that status is actually something probably a lot of us do.

But I don't know if everybody's capable of that objectivity. Is that something you've always been quite good at, being able to... Because I think that's... I don't mean this in a patron patronizing way but it's very mature to be able to look outside yourself and be able to see that that's kind of how you're operating I think it was because I was forced to because like the lockdown's not my first rodeo you know I've kind of lost everything before and and quite rapidly and been forced to look outside myself and and been alone for a long time um to reflect and and rebuilding took a lot longer in in that first instant so yeah I think in a way that was valuable life experience and and that was a a positive thing and being forced to be still in my 20s when I was in a

medical recovery um made me crave being busy and and fear that and I think also being freelance you know I'm self-employed and when I became a mum I always dreaded the question from other mums who had more conventional lives or conventional work of so what do you do and I would always think I don't know but it keeps the lights on it keeps the house running and that's what I know and what I do do changes from month to month and sometimes I do nothing which is okay but to the outside world that doesn't fit in society that that that feels like being unemployed but it's actually not in my world yeah that's really true and actually um I mean there's so much of what you're saying that I really relate to. And I think when you do for a living things where the divide between your sort of work life and just what makes you tick as a person is so blurred, it can be quite hard to sometimes disentangle those things, actually. I think that's probably, in a way, why I started doing this podcast,

because motherhood has been a big way of also putting that into, sort of, it puts it into relief, really, because you're like, what are these bits that I actually have to do just to, you know, earn a living and that sort of that side of things, but also what bit of it is just to keep me feeling like me? And I was reading a quote that you were saying that you'd like to pass on to your daughters of just having, no matter what's going on in the world and how little you can control,

there's just a part of you in your core that's like your centre of gravity, like, this is me. And I wondered if motherhood made that kind of wobble at all, because sometimes it can do. Yeah, I mean, I would really love for us to be able to normalise women having different sections of their lives. Because I definitely have and still have that now, had and have.

And I sort of got my life sorted and enjoyed it and rebuilt a career. And I knew I wanted to be a mum, but I suppose I didn't really know what it entailed. My only example was my own mum um whose life has been very different to mine um but who's been a great mentor and a great help to me you know pre and post being a mum and then when I had my children the first I think first child is just like so different because first child you just carry on your life at first you know and and also people will hate me for saying this, but obviously a baby is really challenging because of sleep deprivation. But an actual tiny baby is a lot easier than a

walking, talking, eating baby. Oh yeah, definitely. Hands down. Yeah, you can still kind of do stuff with a car seat and carrying them around and stuff like that. So the first part of being a mother, I don't believe was the true experience. You know, it wasn't until I got sort of further on with my first child that life really changed. And then when we had a second, we really experienced actually everything goes is about them and around them and life really does change. And now you've been tired for seven years rather than just seven months. And yeah, there's parts of motherhood I struggled with. And there's times when I thought I was doing it really well and I'd give all these interviews where journalists would be like how do you do

it all and I'm like wow this is how I do it all and then I actually realized again in lockdown I didn't have it right because definitely my husband was closer to my children and I suppose what I realized was that I would rush home and do the bedtime story and rush through it and then run downstairs and go back to my emails so on paper I did tick a lot of boxes and I did multitask but how present I was and how much sort of mentally I was giving was out of balance because in lockdown when I wasn't busy you know if they hurt themselves they'd still run to their dad and I I found that kind of quite painful, but understandable. And it did make me prioritise and shift a few things and not be scared to turn things down at work.

And that we'll all live if I do turn down those things. So I think now if people ask me about motherhood and balancing things, I would have to be honest and say it's actually not achievable and something will suffer all the time and I do think when people say it's achievable maybe they don't realize either well you mean having it all sort of lotion yeah it's just really annoying I hate that it's a very unhelpful idea isn't it yeah and people always do it to me like put me on the pedestal and say that I'm inspiring and I'm amazing. And it's even unfair to myself, let alone people that maybe follow me and try to recreate that. Because I don't think it's really true, actually. I don't think it's possible.

And then it might make you suffer in silence if you're not achieving that. Yeah, I was actually thinking just that because there's a woman that I follow on Instagram and she's got six kids. And during the lockdown, they were all, I think they live in like a two-bedroom flat and I was I think she's she seems incredible but we've kind of become like remote friends a little bit and we were having a chat about basically what you've just said and she said I think to my detriment I've become someone that's prided myself on being able to cope with whatever life throws at me getting my work done feeding a couple of extra kids if they're around along for the ride being on top of everything and it's meant actually you can sometimes feel like you've sort of become a bit of a martyr to it really a bit invisible and then you're just like yep I can do that yep I can do

that I mean who are you trying to kid like no one gives you a big medal for that anyway you just you just end up exhausted really and then you build this like rod for your back and you're like why did I do this and actually it is okay to slightly back off and yeah I mean I had this like weird thing in lockdown because I wasn't working as much I was getting obsessed with doing all the other stuff so like domestic things I was like must empty the washing basket by the end of the day it's like no you mustn't you don't go anywhere you all wear pajamas what's wrong with you and like getting really competitive with like completing all the art stuff for the homeschooling and I'm sat there making this bird feeder out of Cheerios by myself what is wrong with me I think I don't know about you but I felt like I had and well I maybe I still

have had her from before we walked down actually but I always have like a sort of there's a woman who lives in my head and she has very similar life to me except that she's just achieving that little bit more she's just dealing with it all that little bit better um and in lockdown she was having a great lockdown she like mastered homeschooling really quick all her kids were getting on with that and handing in their work and I was like I don't even think that woman is a real person yeah yeah I totally get that. And it's weird because I do realise I'm hard on myself. And actually, sometimes that's good for me.

That helps me achieve. That helps me become successful. That helps me motivate everyone else I live with. So it can be positive, but then it can be a bit wounding at the end, you know, so I have to really like check in with myself on that and make sure I'm just always aware of it. So yes, it's productive, but I've got to be realistic and not too harsh as well. Yes. Yeah, definitely. I mean, do you think that sort of way that you deal with everything has been there from the get go? Do you think the kernel of how you have dealt with your life has

been the thread from when you were sort of first hit double figures or whatever maybe um so my parents um we had we were really lucky we had a brilliant upbringing really stable um my mum and dad like dedicated their lives to us my mum's a retired school teacher so she really supported us with our education um I remember like spending summer holidays going to all different museums, National Trust places. And my mum just taking such an interest in our life. And that was so wonderful, that unconditional love and her being so present. But they were strict of us and they wanted us to go out and work. I remember getting my National Insurance number and getting a job in Tesco as soon as I legally could.

And working evenings and weekends whilst I was at college. So they gave us a good work ethic. insurance number and getting a job in Tesco as soon as I legally could and working my evenings and weekends whilst I was at college. So they gave us a good work ethic. My dad was self-employed and he always worked evenings and weekends as well as weekdays. So I think that was really good that things didn't just fall on our laps and that really helped. But I was quite a reckless, wild teenager. I loved excitement. I loved partying. But then I was ambitious. But I think everything became heightened when I had my burn injury because I think it really was that sense of what happens next is my decision and I have to go out there and do it.

Yeah, I had great support from my family, but the next steps were going to be all about me sort of working hard and applying myself and being determined and that is what I try to pass on to my children without being that annoying parent that's had that experience and like pushing it on your kids because I'm so aware that your life experiences are so dull to your children and they have to have you know like there's nothing worse than a parent telling you about their experiences and their successes because they're not yours, you know. They have to have their own.

No, that's very, very true. And, I mean, I was thinking about with your work and with motherhood, because for some women, when they become a mum, they do have this moment where they sort of think, right, what version does my work take on now? But because so much of what you do has become I suppose synonymous with being an advocate for what can happen to you after something so traumatic um and I've wondered

you know if it's just something that's given you like momentum to sort of propel you through getting you know when you had your kids but you still wanted to keep going and flying that flag yeah definitely because my work is very split you know there's similar to you there's the stuff I do because it sort of supports the family it's my contribution it's the it's the financial side there's stuff I do because I'm super passionate and interested and I like fulfillment I like connection um there's stuff I do voluntary with my charity because it's my sort of my spine. It's, it's who I am. It's my reason why I believe I'm here. It's part of my faith as well as, as a Christian. Um,

so I'd never quit any of them. And then motherhood is also part of my identity, but it's not all of it. Um, and you know, it wouldn't be enough for me on its own. And I, I, I'm not ashamed to say that. Um, but my children are very much part of my of those worlds I mean I don't show them within my work online and stuff but they volunteer at my charity they come along to things they've met other burn survivors they understand about um what's happened to those people and it's been there since they were born um so it's very much you know part of who they are they've done fundraising for the charity as well as volunteering so yeah it's it's part of our family and you know I have a different name at work you know I use my maiden name at work as opposed to my married name within sort of school

life and stuff so there's lots of separation but then there's lots of togetherness and community as well and I like that separation and my husband has his own separation in his own private life too which I think is is healthy you know we're not perfect but I think it's healthy yeah very healthy no definitely I think as you say like that normalizing having all those different roles you play um it's actually a really really important thing and an ongoing thing I mean we we are still I mean I know I'm a bit older than you but we're still people that grew up with that sort of 80s idea of like the working woman that was high-achieving and you gave everything over to your career almost.

And so I think there's still a lot of calibrating that's going on in terms of the roles we play and what we're capable of doing. You've mentioned your charity. That's the Katie Piper Foundation. How old is that now? Is it 13 i think it is yeah because i i kind of set it up behind the scenes in 29 and it was sort of announced in 2010 um so yeah it must yeah it's around that yeah yeah god it's old isn't it my god it's a teenager yeah well no but these things are it's really important to sort of look back and realise how far you've come with things.

Yeah, because when you're busy, you don't stop to reflect. And it's hard, actually, because what the charity was, it wasn't lobbying as such, but it was campaigning to change treatment. So when you're discharged from your acute care in the NHS, there's a gap within your rehab and your scar management. And I had to go abroad for that. So we wanted to bring that. Initially, we just wanted to give grants so patients could go abroad and access it. But then there's a lot of problems with people feeling isolated, not talking the language,

wanting to be near their family, having other specialist units they're attached to in this country for other treatments. So fast forward, you know, 13 years, two years ago, we managed to bring that treatment and we have a centre here in the north of England in St. Helens. So it's amazing. And it's, you know, the charity's named after me, but it's not just me. It's very much a team effort of specialists, volunteers, fundraisers, other burn survivors. We employ burn survivors as well. One of our physiotherapists is a burn survivor who came to us initially at the very beginning as a patient.

So it's amazing to have seen her journey like that. So yeah, we support their treatment. And then also there's a, that's the kind of physical sort of medical side. Then there's a wellbeing side of helping people go back into community, society, be ready for relationships. And then there's a psychological

side of supporting them as psychotherapy support groups um workshops skills groups to go back into work so it's kind of that extended arm of support when everything's been turned upside down and the trouble is the people around you love you and want to help you but they don't have the experience and they don't know where to turn to they don't know what to do and they're suffering too you know when you're supporting a loved one and you're frustrated and you don't know what to do so we're there for the survivor to hold their hand and rebuild but we are also there for their network as well yeah I mean that's actually for anybody that's been through anything that as you say that sort of concentric circles of everybody that that those things affect is so huge um and I know that I I did an interview not so long ago with um a woman called Sylvia who's known online as Love Disfigure who I think you've

done oh yes yeah so she's brilliant yeah she was amazing and you know her story is um I mean it's it's different to yours in lots of ways but but one thing that really was a similar thing, I thought, was the fact that it became a very big deal for the relationship she had with her mother. Yeah. And I know you and your mum are incredibly close, and when you had come out of hospital, your mother was your carer when you moved back home.

Yeah. Do you sort of think about that time differently, the kind of older you get and the more your children are growing up? Do you have a slightly different perspective on it now? Yeah, I feel really guilty, actually. So our relationship, like I said, this wonderful, idyllic childhood,

me, the crazy teen, quite challenging, and then having to regress um back to really like didn't quite intimate care you know like losing a lot of dignity having to go back home which is you know I'm one of three and I'm the wild child the independent one that moved out of home at 19 so just having to go back home in general even if I wasn't injured yeah um so that was hard and then when I became a mum you know first thing I said to my mum was So just having to go back home in general, even if I wasn't injured. Yeah, that's really tough. Yeah. So that was hard. And then when I became a mum, you know, first thing I said to my mum was like, gosh, sorry.

Sorry about life. Sorry about the teen years. I get it now why you always wanted to protect me. And then we went on to work together. We wrote a book together. And she lives in Hampshire where we grew up. And I was living in London. So the way we wrote the book, this was before COVID. the way we wrote the book was we did our first drafts and then we emailed over each of us first drafts before we sent them to the editor and I was like oh can't wait to read

this and then I was like struck with this massive sadness and guilt because my mum is very stoic she's brought up by kind of Victorian era parents. You know, there was boarding school and very stiff upper lip. She's not an emotional person. And she never talks about her feelings. And the way we were raised is grown-up business is grown-up business. And children is children and it's very separate, you know. Which is their way of protecting us and just how they were raised. So when I got her first draft, I saw all these things that she'd felt and seen and smelt and heard.

And she had all this imagery that I never had because I'd been in a coma. I hadn't seen that. I didn't have those images in my memory that she'd taken on. And I felt so guilty what I'd put her through. And I imagined if someone did that to my daughter, and it actually gave me reflux in my throat thinking about that. And it was just a really awful moment.

So, yeah, it's really hard to think that your parents have lived through that. And maybe that contributes to me trying to make everything wonderful and jazz hands and, you know, work really hard and be a high achiever so that I can erase the bad stuff and give her some good memories and you know I would always take my mum to things like Pride of Britain and fun stuff and try and erase the dark stuff with the fun glitzy stuff you know not that she's a very glitzy person she actually doesn't really like she's quite shy she doesn't really like that kind of stuff but yes it's, it's been difficult. Yeah, and I think, I mean, that also reminds me of I was reading that when you found out that you were having a baby and you rang your mum and she said,

oh, I was just about to call you actually because I've just had a cancer diagnosis. And you said, you thought to yourself, right, I'm going to make this pregnancy and this impending new baby, that's going to bring the joy, that's going to bring the good stuff, just to sort of change, you know, where we're at and alter the landscape. Yeah, it was weird. We were just swapping very different scan pictures all through the year. And it was brilliant that I was pregnant. I was the first child to be pregnant, probably the one they would think would never be pregnant out of the three of us, let alone the first.

And it brought a lot of joy. And she thought she wouldn't be able to come to, I had caesarean, so she didn't come to the birth, but, you know, post straight after. She was so ill and we lived far apart. So it was a motorway journey to come to me and they had to keep pulling over because she was so sick and it was bowel cancer so there were other reasons and problems why she needed to stop and things but I don't know like I for me I feel like it's God but for her she just feels like it was something in her that just she managed the journey and she just came up and you'll never know when my mum's ill she'll never discuss it she'll never present ill and she came and held the baby she stayed in the hospital for some hours and she threw herself

into being a grandma she was so supportive um it was wonderful and yeah she's she's lived with cancer that has spread from bowel to lung to liver uh to skin to lymph over the seven years and she's never changed anything she does she's never missed christmases she's never missed the other births my siblings have all gone on to have children and you know and because she's a retired school teacher she's making them books she's helping them with spelling tests and she's just all of our inspiration really she's so strong yeah she is yeah that's a great way to describe her actually I think as well when people have got that that way of dealing with life um it's it's amazing because it kind of gives you permission to take on a better atmosphere when

I mean I've I've my stepdad um had cancer and he um he he set the tone of how we could still have Christmas, we could still have birthdays, everything could still have light and triviality and fun. And I think you need that person to sort of, when they set the tone like that, it kind of gives you permission to still be family and all be rattling around and the grandkids climbing up on the lap

and all of that stuff. Yeah, that's so important. It's an amazing gift to be given actually so for me after um my injury friends would be really kind and come visit and try to stay really present but we were all 24 you know so if you think what you were doing when you're 24 you were maybe still at clubbing maybe i'm getting engaged getting a mortgage falling in love real like life decisions and I was obviously learning to swallow uh not leaving the house doing physio so people would come around

who were like my proper good friends who we'd been through loads of wild experiences together and they'd like discuss the weather and they would never they would never want to moan about boyfriend problems or putting on weight or uh taxis being cancelled like they just felt like they couldn't do that and I was like I want to know who had a one-night stand I want to know who's gained three pounds and is annoyed like I want to know those things it's okay like you don't have to have problems the same as mine it's not a competition I want to be included I'm not going to make you feel bad for having all the problems we all shared together I want to share them

and it was hard for people to do that because they were like well nothing is going to compare and I was like well nothing's going to compare for me to the guy that lost his legs in Afghanistan is it you know there's always going to be somebody worse off it's not a competition like it's okay like lots of people's lives are worse than mine doesn't make me feel bad for having those problems yeah and I think actually from the the little I understand of anyone who's gone through anything like a like a profound injury or illness what the last thing they want actually is to sort of have them the sort of um homogenized chat that knocks all the edges off like you actually kind of want all of that stuff,

all the colour, all the vitality, like, just sock it to me so you can still feel part of the conversation. And you're keeping up. And you say, when they mention something, you go, oh, yeah, I remember you told me you went out to that thing. And, you know, you want to be part of all of that. And, I mean, it's just, I suppose, I can't imagine either side of it. You know, you being the person who was going through all of that

and in hospital for so long and such a big event in your life and your friends coming to see you and thinking, you know, just having to take a bit of a deep breath before they walk in the room to see you. Yeah. And hospitals are weird places anyway. Nobody really loves being in a hospital, do they? Yeah, and it's British, isn't it, of like, what do I say?

Like, what's the wrong, what's the right right thing and even I now have had you know friends that had different things happen and I'm the same I'm awkward and I don't know what to do um so I guess you probably just ask the person like do you want to see me do you want me to be normal do you want me to shut up and just listen and and if you know them well enough, you'll feel like you can ask them that, you know. And I think for me, I was like, guys, I still love a good gossip, so please gossip with me and I want to laugh and I don't know what to laugh about anymore, so let's laugh together.

Yeah. No, laughter's a very, very important tonic, actually, for lots of things. But I think, I mean, through what you've been talking about and, you know, bringing the joy and, you know, with your mum saying, like, right, we'll, you know, take you to the Pride of Britain and we'll do all the twinkly stuff. I mean, I do think, I feel like a lot of this stuff is a choice. It's like a mental choice that you have to sort of run towards that. Yeah.

Yeah. I think some people won't like me for saying this, but everyone's life is a choice. And I know some of us have more privilege, more options, but you know, there's privileged, unhappy people who don't make the right decisions and loads of moments in our life are taken out of our control, but they are just moments. You know, there's always that decision of how we're going to respond, how we're going to react. And sometimes we don't react. Sometimes our silence is super powerful as well. So, you know, whatever situation I'm in, or if I'm mentoring someone at the charity and I'm talking to them about the cards that have been dealt to them, there's loads of choice around us, you know,

and there's loads of inspiration around us. You know, some people might say, well, I don't have the people around me that you have, and I don't have inspiration or role models or mentors. And, you you know someone said something to me that really rang true once and they said everybody's put in your life to inspire you and some people are put in your life to inspire you to be absolutely nothing like them at all so even those people that have wronged you in life can be your inspiration yeah I think that's very true actually and I think uh learning from those those relationships and that dynamic and making a choice not to have that happen to you again because you know what it's

like there's there's like characters you you're going to meet that person over and over again they'll have a different face different name but that role they play is time eternal and the only thing you can really do is how how much you choose to be affected by that really yeah I think you're right and and sort of use everyone and I don't mean that in a sort of kind of stepping on everybody way but use every situation to your advantage you know reframe your mindset and say you know is is this an opportunity is this an opportunity to start again is this an opportunity to reinvent is this an opportunity to move forward you know I can sometimes fall into the trap,

particularly with work, and I think this is because of the rise of social media, where I can be jealous and I can make comparisons. And somebody once said to me, use jealousy, observe jealousy, because often your jealousy is actually what you want to achieve. And I was like, that is so interesting. That is not always true

because there's different types of jealousy. Like there's possessive jealousy, there's professional jealousy. But sometimes some of my professional jealousy actually is just where I wish I was at. And instead of wasting my energy watching other people do it, I could perhaps go off and be more productive

and work towards being it, you know? Yeah, and also if there's people that, you know, you don't know why, but there's something about them that's always kind of annoyed you sometimes it's because they actually see something of yourself it's reflected back so true and it's like when everyone if anyone ever gives you know gives out something nasty to you it's always more about them than you it's like it's always everybody's it's always about what's something that's been triggered with them yes i mean it mean, it's easy to say and sometimes harder to live by, but it does often end up being the case, doesn't it?

Yeah, and that's another quote of, like, hurt people hurt people. You know, if you can really... And then you can really go to that place of empathy where you're like, wow, I would hate to be this angry. I would hate to be hurting so much that it's kind of spewing out. You know, like, that's a real loss of control. Yeah. And I actually feel like the older, the older we get, the more you kind of can

sort of choose to keep looking outside of yourself and being curious. And by the way, I'm aware that, you know, this is all sounding a bit Pollyanna and that doesn't mean I'm not, I'm like moaning about loads of stuff, you know, being petulant and churlish and all these things. But yeah, you keep looking outside yourself and being curious or kind of turning in and just getting a bit calcified and in unhelpful thoughts I think yeah it's definitely part of what I've observed with like what 40s seems to represent among my peers it's interesting actually and I wonder if when you're talking about your mum and and your dad and taking you to museums and you know taking you out all that that sort of way of always encouraging you to look outside and perspective and like what else

is happening for other people is actually a really good thing to have just in your DNA really yeah it's funny because it makes me really excited like I turned 38 this year and I was like well it's a bit of a nothing as in you know it's not 40 yet um and I have a positive relationship with aging because I thought it was something that was going to be taken away from here at one point you know so I know it's a privilege and my appearance will never change that drastically for me as it has once before so I'm kind of okay with it all and hearing you talk about uh 40s like that you know it makes me quite excited about going into my 40s because the older I've got my life has always got better I've always got more confident I've always got more secure

and life has always been getting softer and easier so and I really am lucky that I had all those experiences with my mum and dad that I've got a template and I sort of just as a mum go around copying what my mum did yeah I, I do the same, actually. Yeah, and I dread the teens because I'm like, what am I going to do because I have no template there? Yeah, I think, oh, golly, that's like a whole other conversation. So I've got, my eldest is 17. He's going to be 18 in spring.

Oh, gosh. And then the next one down is going to be 13 in February. And it's, yeah, everything does shift a little bit with teens, I would say. And when I had my eldest go to like 12, 13, I was like, this is actually fine. He's still really sweet. He's still really smiley. He wants to hang out all the time. And then we hit 14.

It was like, okay, I kind of get it now. And that's not to say he was unpleasant or anything. You know, I've got a good relationship with Sonny. But it's just like something takes over in adolescence. Yeah. Yeah, I can, I mean, I don't know, I'm learning as I go. And each kid is different as well, so, you know, all I think is, oh, my goodness,

I think I might have bitten off more than I can chew, but, you know. I just don't want to lose them. Like, you know, that thing of, like, I love my kids, like, we're not friends, that's the wrong thing to say, we are like you know I just love every moment with them and I don't want them to like find me uncool I don't want them to not hug me I don't like my seven-year-old doesn't want to kiss at the gate anymore she doesn't you know she'll do like a sort of tap but she won't like kiss on the cheek to say goodbye and even yesterday in the car, she was like, mum, I feel really embarrassed when I see the year four boys. And I was like, why? She's like, I don't know. I just feel so embarrassed

when I see them. And I was just like, oh my God, it's happening. It's happening. You remember that feeling, don't you? That chronic, like, oh, self-conscious, like, oh, blimey. I know it is tough. I mean, I don't know. I think that, you know, it ebbs and flows as well. And I mean, I don't know about you, but I was like, I got to my teenage years and I didn't really want to hang out with my little siblings that much. Not because, I mean, I adored them, but it just didn't really, I felt like I was in a different place.

But then when I got older, I started wanting to do those things again. So I think, you know, just give a little bit of space is a good thing and then they'll find their way back to you. Yeah, I think. And also, when they they're teenagers they think they don't need you but they actually need you more than ever yeah that's the thing as well keeping that tether on them is quite important actually this is a bit of advice i always pass on because it was such a good one when i i spoke to catelyn moran so both her girls and now i think they're actually probably in their 20s now but she said in teenage years you have to turn into a bit of a cow like a friendly cow so you sort of amble into their

bedroom and sort of moo at them a bit and really you're helping them in problem solving but you kind of make them feel like they're educating you and you that they're problem solving by themselves and then you're you know yeah and then you've actually kind of been just playing a bit of a dunce, really. Yeah. Okay, note to self, take on cow. Okay. It works for me. Yeah.

But when we're talking about, you know, having a positive attitude and getting through things and how to choose how to interpret situations, I would imagine a very testing element in your life of that would be operations. And how many operations have you had now Katie? Yeah gosh I don't know I stopped counting like I got into like the 300s. Oh my goodness. Yeah and it's not a skin grafts like it's not traditional plastic surgery it's I have a lot of problems with swallowing so it's my esophagus like gastro surgery i'm blind on my left eye so

i have a lot of uh like cornea surgery eyelid surgery so that that's been more and with my respiratory system like my septum and my breathing it's more that rather than sort of patchwork quilt i mean i have had a lot of skin grafts but it sounds so dismissive but it's no biggie for me like i just feel so privileged that we're in a country where majority of this has been funded by the NHS you know it would have bankrupted me and my family if it had been America or somewhere else um and I feel so lucky like you know you think about acid attacks and like Asia, Southeast Asia they can't access this medical treatment that they can't even get legal trials you know so I feel like privileged

to access all of this health care um and it's fine I've got that high pain threshold I'm really into healthy living I'm into fitness exercise I love feeling free I love being able to use my body so I always support my recovery in the best way that I can um and I just accept being a burn survivor means you will forever have treatment um and the other option was that you wouldn't survive and you wouldn't have got through what happened so yeah I've totally made peace with that and it's and it's okay I think the last thing that sounds is dismissive by the way I think yeah yeah that's like the last thing that comes across it's more just sounds like a really very um just a really healthy and good way to approach where you find yourself in life actually um and I think you know that's uh that thing of remembering actually that we do have access to you know we're a first world country we've got amazing health care system lots of support um that's that is an amazing thing I mean how how are your girls when when you've had to have

procedures is it they kind of take it in the same way or is it quite upsetting for them do you think um it's just started to change so you know it had been fine because they barely acknowledged it and it was normal maybe the odd, if I have an eye patch and sort of dress bulky dressing, they sort of laugh and touch it and call me a pirate and it's OK. But actually, it was quite sad the last year or so when I was having some eye surgery and my eldest was a bit like,

I don't really want you to kiss me goodnight, I think you're scary. And I had to be really fair and say, yeah, you know what? It is scary. It is weird. It isn't normal. And it's new. And that's fine. And I won't kiss you goodnight. I'll just wave from the door. Daddy can kiss you goodnight. And you let me know when you're ready. And of course, I had a little like cry in the bathroom because I was like, oh, God, god you know but this is where we're at and actually I've got to allow her to feel like that because that is normal and if she's not allowed to feel like that then I'm going to make loads of problems and then in her own time she

came to me curiously like when the pad came off and I still had stitches and you know stitches are always blue and she was like why is it blue now you're more weird and I was like you know you're right I am more weird this is even more strange isn't it and I was like do you want to touch it do you want me to show you and with lots of stuff on CBBB's like Operation Ouch we go and watch things like that together and then she just comes to me in her own time and and but it's good because she is able to say stuff to me like you know she didn't want me to come on the school run at first but she is able to say that at least she can say that and I'm able to make other arrangements and say actually that is okay and I want I always want that open dialogue I always want to be able to talk about that

um and for her not to feel bad for feeling a certain way um and then they get upset if it's an overnight stay and they don't want me to go to hospital and they have cried and stuff and I think this is just going to be a normal part of our family and we've got to allow it and they don't want me to go to hospital and they have cried and stuff and I think this is just going to be a normal part of our family and we've got to allow it and I don't want to be um like you know the world sees me as like positive person well I don't agree with always presenting like that and especially to them I don't agree with shutting them down and saying no you should be fine about this because it's not normal and it's not fine so I'm trying to create that sort of open space for them and sort of I mean I would never cry in front of them because I have not been brought up like that either and I think it's important for me to present as it's fine and it

is fine for me the only time it's not fine is their reaction but then I will just leave the room you know yeah and I think um that kind of pragmatism about it and acknowledging when things are well this isn't the typical and you don't have to be okay with that it's actually good for everybody it just sort of takes the pressure off because actually that thing if you were sort of always going this is completely fine no everything's great it would just be kind of absurd really and really hard for everybody I think yeah and it's the same with visible difference like look if your children met me, they would ask you questions and feel like it's different.

And then that's normal. And we can't, like, when we do that whisper thing of don't do it, then you just stop the education and make the taboo. So, you know, my kids, for all the volunteering at the charity, they still react to people with visible differences and ask questions and get scared and and that's all right we can't punish children for that like they're just observing difference you know and even in like uh cultures you know my daughter said to me oh why is that man got a

sheep in his head and it's a turban and he's a Sikh and then we're able to talk about it you know and so I don't want to be that person that like glares at other people's kids because they've pointed and asked. I want to be able to allow that conversation so that we open it up, you know? No, I couldn't agree more. And actually I've had chats with my kids as well about how sometimes visible difference is used as a,

up until recently, it's been used as sort of shorthand in culture as a way to denote people that maybe are, I don't know, like the baddies or not to be trusted, which is actually something that I think very soon we're going to look back and think, what on earth was going on with that? I know, I know. Was there anybody that you had as a sort of, you know,

had as an inspiration to you when you were going through such a big change with your appearance? Not really, because in terms of specifically Burns, we only ever saw our sort of military heroes, which whilst I admired their courage and their sacrifice, it wasn't anything relatable to me as a woman or what had happened to me. So I suppose it was more in my career as I worked with women who were sort of women that were leaders and breadwinners and just sort of women that were confident in spaces where they were the minority, which I know has nothing to do with disfigurement. But it was just seeing women being assertive and seeing their self-esteem and self-worth not wrapped up in their appearance and how and how they looked and that not being everything and that that in some way did inspire me and I know on the outside that you'd think well that's kind of different but yeah they were real role models and leaders for me yeah and I see that but it's interesting I think there's still a lot of work

to be done actually with that and I think that's actually somewhere where sometimes social media has been really brilliant because there's so many accounts with these incredible young women going, look, this is what's different about me and I'm going to celebrate it. And isn't it wonderful that my body can still do this, that and the other? And I'm still going to wear all those dresses and put on that makeup and just be the full version of myself, even if it's not what we're seeing reflected back as, you know, in advertising. Yeah, absolutely.

I think it's so healthy. So important. I mean, we didn't have access to it a few years ago. I know. what we're seeing reflected back as you know in advertising yeah absolutely healthy so important to be able to i mean we didn't have access to it a few years i know you know um even for me i remember trying to search for stuff and i couldn't find anything instagram didn't exist all those years ago facebook was sort of more people moaning about the rubbish and their cats and stuff like i think it's still a bit like that on facebook yeah yeah, yeah. I have to say I'm not on it. But yeah, I mean, now it's brilliant. I can search hashtags now and I can find body positivity

and I can find feminist accounts and it wasn't there and I'm really glad it's there now and it's great. Yeah, it's really powerful. Well, something else that's new from this time in hospital, I was reading about how you found your faith

and I really wanted to speak to you about that because you're now part of the Songs of Praise team, which is brilliant. And you had such an extraordinary introduction to your faith because on paper, it's quite unusual, I would imagine, to either have a very traumatic event and that be the thing that introduces you to faith or someone that's not grown up

because you didn't grow up in a religious household, did you? No, my mum and dad, they don't go to church they're not christened they don't identify as any particular religion but their morals and their values are ones that are from the bible of you know love thy neighbor treat others how you want to be treated um so yeah my only experience of religion growing up was kind of re at school where everyone just kind of did nothing just like use it as an opportunity to kind of dust really so yeah it was for some people it's quite common to when you lose all hope to turn to either faith spirituality religion and that absolutely was what happened to me but it wasn't momentary and it wasn't just in my time of need it's carried me all through my life yeah and it will be weird for people listening that don't feel that or connect

to that because I feel God in my life all the time I have messages I talk to him I seek comfort and solace in him and I'm able to surrender my life and it to him so it eases my anxiety um and it is really amazing I feel some people don't find that till later on in life or till life is coming towards an end so I feel really lucky to have found that at 24. Yeah I think it's it's really wonderful actually and I'm I've actually often felt quite jealous actually of people who have that faith because I think that must be an amazing companion. Yeah it's a it's a weird world though for some like some old school older people it can be a clicky world where they say you must be this or

that and go to church every week and dress like this and do this and I don't fit in that box and my connection and worship doesn't always look like going to church every Sunday you know it's very private and I use apps when I'm alone I have my headphones on and I listen to a daily prayer on an app and I write in a journal and that that's like not Christianity for everybody but it is for me and it is my connection yeah I suppose in a way that sounds to me like the way that the if you sort of got it down to some of its parts exactly what you would um call you christian values christian morals and in a way that that side of it that sort of old school clicky judgmental uh stereotypical version you know the way we've seen sort of old

christian groups is not you're not even the first person i've had this conversation with with the podcast actually the last guest i had was a lady called stacy who works at a community center in newham and she said i'm i'm what are you I'm a member of what we call a wonky church because we're all inclusive it's all about inclusivity yeah and just having it as part of your life and it's not about on Sundays we go to church and we look at other people and say well they're not very Christian or that's not the way to do things you know I think yeah the whole thing is probably it's probably about time that these conversations, in a way it's almost become a little bit taboo to say you've got religion in your life

because it's not the way we're all raised anymore. I mean, I try not to talk about it too much, especially on like social platforms because I don't want to push people away and be preachy and look judgmental of other people. But it's weird because we all turn to something even if it's not god so like in pandemic we all kind of pray out loud or in our heads maybe to no one because we don't

believe in a particular figure but when all hope is lost we we turn to something with even if it's just turning within ourselves you know and it's a form of meditation to take 10 minutes out of silence and and repeat some kind of mantra, you know. Yeah. And there is no judgment. It's not about like, well, God doesn't listen to you unless you do it every week. You know, you can sit on anything you want and communicate with anybody you want, however it looks for you. Yeah, and I mean, I know that my children, you know, because when you're kids, you start learning about all different faiths.

And then we've had lots of chats about it at home. And a couple of them have been quite interested actually in what it would feel like to have it incorporated our lives more and so you know Richard and I have very open chats with them about it my husband was raised in a very Christian household used to go to Christian camps and all this kind of thing so he's got that experience and we'll talk about it and I'll say oh you know I'm not sure how I feel about this and the other, and the kids might say, oh, but, you know, if you say that, then you might not, you know, get to go to heaven if that's what you're saying now.

And I say, well, to be honest, if that's what this is all about, then that doesn't sound like the sort of thing that I would want to be part of anyway. It's surely got to be a bit more open to, you know, being understanding of people and compassion and humility. Yeah. See see we haven't christened the kids because I don't want to push Christianity onto them because I wasn't christened you know so if they want to maybe when they're 16 or something I'll support it and my daughters

are really funny because their school is very multicultural and so like Chinese New Year their friends would give them chocolate coins and my daughter would come home be like I wish I was Chinese so I could get more chocolate coins and then it's Eid and their friends will bring in little pastries and she'll be like can we be Muslim so we can do Eid and it's just any religion involving food and treats they just want to turn to it at that time in the year yeah that sounds about right yeah I mean I know that um when we had a funeral for my grandpa, so it's like non-secret, which made me think of the food thing. And my then, I think Kit was probably about nine at the time, maybe eight.

And he was really taken with the catering. So then he just started asking around anyone we knew, if their parents, their grandparents were still around. And if they were still around, he'd be like, well, when they die, can I go to the funeral? And it turned out the sole motivation was just hoping they had a similar sort of spread. I love the citizens.

It's so beautiful. I know. And actually, as well, it's nice to sort of normalise aspects of life like that because I think we, you know, that sort of Victorian version of actually probably Christianity and birth, death, all of it. We've still got a lot of that, haven't we, in our British culture? That sort of button up way to deal with things. It's so old hat.

But I suppose as well, because of the world we live in and every conversation we have being dissected and being able to be replayed and highlighted and called out, it can be quite hard to speak freely without worry that you're going to say something that somebody sort of highlights and says that's the bit that you shouldn't have said yeah it's so problematic because like there's this whole thing of be kind which is so brilliant um but that is sort of like ironic of this cancel culture so then you fear educating yourself and discussing things and you know you want you want to be able to get stuff wrong because that's how you better yourself and you move forward

and you connect and you learn. But then it's scary because you're like one chance at getting it right or wrong. But yeah, I mean, I would hope that as we become more open and more sort of malleable and flexible about these things, that we can sort of widen this and keep remembering that nobody's perfect and we are allowed to make mistakes and we have to stop sort of shaming people you know in the next breath but yeah I always try to sort of like you know not be irrational and reactive to things and sort of pause and step back and stuff and just hope other people will too.

Yeah and I couldn't agree more I think cancel culture is a really unhealthy thing really because it doesn't actually change the way people feel about stuff. It just makes it all drive down underground where they feel like they can't actually speak openly and then they can't, as you say, be educated by hearing the full 360 of any debate, which is crucial. We've got to be able to listen to each other. People always try and drag me into it, right?

Any comments somebody makes that some people might feel are slightly wrong about disfigurement or disability, people will pile on me and be like, did you hear what they said? It's so bad, I'm not sure what happened to you. And I'm just like, oh my God, do you really want to shut this person down so that they can no longer speak or learn

or take part in something? I remember ages ago, Jo Brand made a joke about something and then people misinterpreted it and were like, poor Katie Piper, how do you think she feels about your joke? You should be taken off the BBC. And they were constantly atting me on Twitter

to make me reply to at Jo. And it's like, I love Jo. I've read her books. I love her humour. I love her comedy. She's super smart. And what she was saying was in the comedy circuit in context of a joke and it was

in no way reflective of how she feels about disability or disfigurement and it was so unfair what they were trying to do to her and I just didn't never commented on it and I don't feel any which way about it at all and I was like I'm not joining this I'm not joining this witch hunt like it's just so unfair and what does it achieve it just makes people scared to ever actually comment on anything in that in that sector I agree and actually the most powerful thing you can do is actually the thing that you have been doing which is just to keep keep pushing on keep expanding and it's it's it's a very organic thing like the idea that you wrote the book that had the affirmations and then that's ended up being something that people are putting

into their homes so they're surrounding you know these are the things that you wrote the book that had the affirmations and then that's ended up being something that people are putting into their homes and they're surrounding it. These are the things that are authentic and happening naturally and that's the best way. Just keep climbing up your own mountain is the best way to sort of respond to all of that stuff really. I know easier said than done sometimes, but I do think that's the most powerful thing you can do really. And I mean the media love it if people all pile on each other.

They like the idea of all that, but it's not a nice way to live your life yeah I'm like guys people want women to hate each other I'm not joining that war like seriously there's enough hate out there without us manufacturing it don't need to add to it I agree actually I was thinking sorry this is wasn't following that but when you were talking about how you found your faith so um the nurse that was speaking to you when you were in hospital about god is that is she someone that you actually ended up telling her what the significance of that conversation yeah i stayed in touch um she gave me a bible at the end to put her email in it so old school i think it was even like a hotmail address when hotmail existed and um i didn't get

in touch straight away because i wasn't in a place to um I didn't even have like an email address or a phone for about a year um but when I was in a place to I did get in touch and I went to her flat I went to her church um and we communicated quite a bit and she's just really humble person so for her it was a bit like oh me really okay um and she never really asked anything of me or really researched what had happened to me beyond being discharged you know I don't think she really knew I'd gone because you know she's not really in that mainstream world of Instagram or anything like that and she also wasn't really concerned with it because she was like living to serve to be a nurse you know and to church, and that was a very minimal life,

you know, a materialistic life. So, yeah, it was amazing to be able to have that connection with her and sort of tell her, even if she wasn't really seeking that end to the story, she was just like, oh, that's nice, thank you, I'm glad I could do that. But it's you and it's God, it's not really me. And so a typical kind of humble sort of way of receiving it, really. Yeah, I just, I suppose it's such a significant thing, isn't it?

If that's now become so much part of, you know, if you have that dialogue with God as well, that's a massive part of your life. So I think that's, yeah, and an incredible support through what must have been very, very dark days. So, yeah, what she gave you from that moment is actually really really powerful and I was thinking as well that so when you had your first baby it was only six years after you'd

had your injury is that right yeah so 2008 was my injury 2014 was my birth of my first daughter so is that six years yeah wow so that doesn't sound like very long to me. No. And I wondered if chronologically, I know that years passing is not the most accurate measure of how you feel about stuff that goes on anyway. So I wondered if it felt like a long time or a short time. I never even realised it was six years until you said that.

So, and I don't think six years is a long time, but I suppose what was happening in my life within weeks and months was what wouldn't happen in someone's lifetime so you know big life decisions were being made life-changing moments were happening things were being taken away from me medically but then huge things were coming into my life in my career and meeting people accessing things going places were happening overnight uh so I always feel super old I always feel like 60 and I don't mean like tiredness or appearance I just mean what happened to me from the injury to present day that's only been like 13 14 years was almost like what would happen over 30 years a lot slower you know so everything

always feels sped sped up in that way the good the privileged stuff and the damn right dark horrific stuff you know so yeah i suppose in that sense my my sense of time is different to others and maybe that's another reason why i'm super busy as well you know packing everything in and and then there's that underlying anxiety of life is short life life is fragile, everything can change in a split second. You know, you go to bed one day and nothing's guaranteed in the morning. Yeah, and I think some people talk a bit about legacy and what they leave behind, and that can encourage as well,

that sort of busyness of, like, just wanting to keep achieving and doing things and having that momentum. Momentum's really good for everything, like mental health as well, I think. Yeah. yeah something on the horizon is always a good thing and I think in the end not knowing it when people talk about what's your overarching goal like what what's your plans what do you want um I always think actually maybe in the end about realizing it your overarching goal is the legacy so it's like will you be the woman in the family that the grandchildren's grandchildren like oh aren't you know grandma katie or auntie katie left this or did that

she set that up like maybe in the end your overarching goal isn't anything for when you're here because i always find like i never really arrive anyway i never i'm always on to the next thing which is obviously quite unhealthy but it's never enough for me so maybe it's not even for me maybe it's for when I'm gone yeah I suppose it's a form of um sort of being at peace with mortality as well sometimes isn't it like putting down some roots making sure there's little trees growing in your absence um well I always ask everybody if if they plan to be a mum and if you're the sort of mum you thought you'd be do you think you're the sort of mother you thought you'd be um uh I plan to be a mum at different stages in my life and then I changed that plan and didn't want to be a

mum at other stages then I thought I wouldn't be but wanted to be so it was a real like roller coaster of emotions and physical implications and then when I when I became one it was a real roller coaster of emotions and physical implications. And then when I became one, it was because I wanted to. And I never knew what sort of mum I'd be. And I never knew if you could choose. I never knew if that's how it really worked. And then the one I've become has been different throughout the children's stages. You know, I was a different mum when they were a baby.

I was a different mum as a toddler. I was a different mum in lockdown. That changed me. And as my career's changed and opportunities changed, it's changed how I've parented. I don't think I'm the best mum. I think I'm okay. I had parents' evening and then I had a music recital of my eldest

and I reflected and I was like, oh, I'm doing a good job. She was good at the recital. She was confident. The parents' evening was good. So they're like my markers, you know. I never know if I'm all right. And I'll never sort of think I'm all right because it will have to be they'll show me. And, you know, sometimes they struggle.

Sometimes I struggle. Other times they flourish and I'm that proud parent. Yeah, and I think that's a good way to mark her, actually. And also the thing about kids is that, you know, I don't think there's a possibility of getting it all right. It's just that, you know, I think they say, you know, doing good enough is kind of the objective, really. Yeah, I try.

Yeah, me too. Me too. And it's funny, we were talking before about legacy. That always makes me really nervous. I feel like I've probably got to do some things a bit more significant than just dance around in my kitchen wearing sequins. But I'll work on that. No, absolutely not.

No, no. Because legacy is just like, it's an interpretation, isn't it? It really is. And they'll talk about us for years to come. Yes. And they'll admire us and they'll want to be us and we'll be celebrated and it's amazing. Well, that sounds lovely.

I don't think anything for a celebration. Well, before I let you go, Katie, I think it seems fitting that, I'm not going to ask you about future plans or anything like that because I sense that you're someone that's kind of just put instinctively where the next foot falls, you know, that's the next thing that goes on but is there a favorite affirmation from your book that you think would be a good one for me to have for my day-to-day

yeah I think I'm a bit I'm a bit of an overthinker and it doesn't really serve me or change anything and this one sort of summarizes really what anxiety is and how productive it is um it goes like this worry is a total waste of time all it does is steal your joy and keep you very busy doing absolutely nothing at all oh yes that's very true that's very true and actually the worrying about things when they may or may not happen is just pointless yeah it's such a facade of being in control, isn't it? Yeah, and I think the facade of being in control and also it's a habit as well, I think, actually. It feels quite habitual to sort of get worried about stuff. Sometimes it almost feels like a sort of,

just an automatic response to things. Trying to break that is quite hard. And there's definitely that experience of like, oh, the stuff you worried about never happened and the stuff that has happened you didn't foresee. Yeah, I think there's something that comes with getting older and having more experiences behind you that does knock out some of those worries.

Because my motto for getting on with things, even if there's something I'm thinking, logistically, how am I going to make that work with that or what's going to happen there? And I just always say, well, something will happen. At some how am I going to make that work with that or what's going to happen there and I just always say well something will happen like at some point I'll be the other side of it and something will have led to it being done or you know as we're used to

You've got the faith see Yeah I think you've got to have a bit of that and there's a lot of what you said that really I totally agree about about the choices we make and how we interpret things because so much is out of our control but I think it's quite in a lot of ways that means that there's no formula so you might as well be open to lots of things and just

see where the path takes you there's a lot of good in that always be open always be flexible malleable never be rigid yes I like oh Katie it's been so nice to talk to you I think you're an amazing person because not just I love the wisdom and I love the fact you seem to be so good at being able to sort of slightly step outside of experiences and just see what's working what's not I think that's that's actually in a really amazing characteristic not everybody has that that's really special thing and it's good for your daughters as well because it means that you can say you can be very human in your response to everything you know I hope so yeah so, yeah. Yeah, that's a good thing. It's been so nice. Thank you so much.

I really enjoyed it. I'm going to try not to worry today. It's a day of no worries. Same, same. I wish us both well with that. There you go. A nice spinning plates chat to start off the new year. We've got loads more where that came from i

i'm really excited about this series i've been having a really nice time making contact with new people and i'd say it happens several times a week that i'll be reading an article or someone will mention something and i'll think oh that's a brilliant person I'd love to speak to them for the podcast so I will determine yeah yeah committed to my determination to keep bringing you incredible conversations with working mums from all backgrounds from all you know sides of the spectrum it's really it's really something I care about a lot. And I think the rain's made me quite philosophical today. But in sharp contrast to this philosophy, I'm going to just share with you that it's now half past 12 on rainy Saturday. And I still haven't actually managed to get dressed.

I've been pulling children out of bed all morning. The little ones. So Mickey woke up at 7. Jessie and Ray, who are 6 six and nine they came down about eight ish quarter past eight something like that kit who's 12 came down about 10 15 he started to really sleep in that's just kicked in so over the last few months really adolescence he's gonna be 13 next week next month rather and then sunny he's 17 and i have to just keep calling him for hours so he's now he got up about about half an hour ago i think and then once i get them all up richard's

at work today then i'm like right i'm gonna sneak off and have a shower and get dressed so that hasn't actually happened yet even though strictly speaking it's lunchtime don't judge me guys anyway i hope wherever you are and whatever you're doing, I hope everything's been all right with you so far this January. I know that January can be a really icky time and emotionally pretty challenging. So let's just focus on the small good stuff, shall we? And if in doubt, put on one of your favourite songs.

It does work for me. I've been listening to loads of good stuff recently and it's really put me in a good spot so i pass that on to you um yeah you knew that already though didn't you all right lots of love take care of yourself see you next week Thank you.