Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 56: Clara Francis

Episode Date: February 14, 2022

Clara Francis is an actor and businesswoman, who’s recently started her own online dress company 'O Pioneers' with a friend. Happily married to actor Jason Watkins, she has an older daughter, Bessie, and a younger son, Gilbert. On the surface she has the perfect life.But Clara came to speak to me about how she is surviving the death of her child. Her middle child Maud, who was 2 when she died of sepsis, would have been 13 now.This is a difficult listen. It’s emotional, it’s painful, it’s unthinkable. I’m very grateful to Clara for speaking so openly about the taboo subject of the death of a child, and by this story being heard, I hope it will help someone. I also hope it will help me to talk to any bereaved parents in the future.kumon.co.uk/trial kumon.ie/trial Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hey you. I am walking back through the dark on Friday evening. It's surprisingly mild.

I think I said that to you last week as well. It's just not that cold and I am not complaining. And it's actually just been the end of a very sparkling winter day. Beautiful blue skies, sunshine, and then one of those lovely sunsets where the sky's all pink and blue and it reminds me of a t-shirt I had in the 80s when I was about four that had a sunset on it i thought it was great um i have been recording so many podcast chats for you this week i've done four i think in the last few weeks i've done about another six i've had some brilliant conversations oh my goodness the diversity as well. Blimey. And this conversation today that I'm sharing with you was actually recorded a little while ago. And I don't know why I just felt a bit protective of it. Well, I do know why. It's a really sensitive conversation that felt very important to have but quite oh well it's a big one i speak to

clara francis who i first became aware of because she has a clothing range called oh pioneers with her co-founder tanya and they do beautiful dresses and I think they reached out to me during lockdown and we got chatting a little bit and then I started following O'Pioneers and following Clara on Instagram and then she put up this post about her little girl Maudie who it turned out had died 10 years ago now from sepsis. She was only two years old. And I reached out to Clara, not really knowing her very well. I just said, you know, no need to reply, but just sending lots of love because the post that she put up was very honest. And well, it's the sort of thing we all think about in the corners of our mind as

soon as we have a small person in our life that we adore you know the absolute horror of the idea of them not existing anymore while we're still here. It's just too much. And there are some people that that fire, that thought does not stay in their peripheral vision. It comes right centre of their lives and sets fire to everything. So Clara said to me, I'd be really happy. Well, she actually suggested it. She said, I'd love to come and talk to you

because there's such a taboo around being the parent of a child who's died and talking about children who die in general so I felt incredibly honoured actually I thought that was very special that she reached out and no small thing to me and I want to say a heartfelt thank you to her for talking to me and I could really see her while we were chatting it was funny I asked her first of all what Maudie was like when we started talking about her and I don't know maybe it's because my little one's the same age as she was then but wow I could feel a real sense of Maudie so I want to thank Maudie as well and whatever sense that's possible because um because it was nice to meet her mum and I would chat about her even if it was heartbreaking too and I really really really hope this helps some people I'm sorry this is going to be upsetting

but I really hope it helps too and if you're out there and this has in some way affected you in your life I send you lots of love and you are not alone and there's support out there so I'll leave you with Clara and I who speaks so beautifully and passionately it's pretty raw but that's exactly as you'd expect, right? So anyway, I hope you've got some tissues with you, and I will see you on the other side. I've just had my 50th birthday, so I went through loads and loads of... What? You're 50? I'm so old.

God, what a great advert for 50. That's brilliant. It's disgusting to be so old. I never cared about ageing before. And I know it's only a number, and I know it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. But there's something about turning 50. Turning 40, I was fine. but there's something about turning 50 like turning 40 I was it was fine but there's something about 50 it just I'm like I'm I'm really sort of officially old uh it's funny thing aging but I do think mostly there's lots of good bits about it and 40s I've really uh when I first was turning 40 I didn't really know what

that meant meant to me I didn't really have a vision in my head of like what 40 is but actually I can now sort of see looking around me after I'm 42 I feel like I can sort of get a sense now of I think 40 is about sort of you almost have to keep choosing to keep looking outside yourself and being curious about things because I think it's quite easy to start shutting the doors and getting a bit calcified in yeah in old old ways I know I mean when I turned 40 I I had a sort of plan I'd sort of planned everything um and and I was like well I've had my children and I'm and I'm going to get married when I'm 40 I you know that was always the plan I wanted to have my children first then I wanted to get married but then when I was 39 my daughter died and uh so actually turning 40 was really horrendous time but I didn't even think about the the 40 because I was in really deep grief that year so it was it was there was

no I didn't even think about, I didn't think about the implications of being 40 because nothing else mattered other than my childhood died. And it sort of gave me this perspective like, well, it doesn't matter. It actually really, really, really doesn't matter. Yeah, in that circumstance, the new age is the most insignificant, trivial thing I'd imagine. that well it sort of mattered in so much as I've my daughter has died and I want

to have another child and I need to have another child and I'm 39 and I have a biological clock and you know people were like no you mustn't get pregnant straight away you need time to grieve and I was like no you know I have to have a no you I need to get pregnant now because I haven't got the luxury of time to grieve because I have a biological I have this clock that's ticking away so it was it was sort of and actually when I did turn 40 I was pregnant again because I got pregnant three months after she died I mean I I can yeah but I was like yeah I was quite deranged I'd say I was like oh it was my but what is normal when everything is I know but yeah I mean to me it felt very it felt that I got I just realized we've like started I'm straight in

no but that's fine yeah uh it felt you know on the day that my daughter died, she died very suddenly, I was like, I need to have another child. In fact, when my mum walked in the room, you know, I said, I need to have another child. It was absolutely like, I knew that's what I had to do. Do you feel like, sometimes when I have a thought in my head that is like the only thing I can think of, do you remember that cartoon, Numb Skulls, that was in the casino and they put a message in your head that is like the only thing I can think of, do you remember that cartoon Numb Skulls? Yeah.

I put a message in your head. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like this is messaging. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just slotted in. Yeah. Baby. That's it.

Yeah. That's what I was like. All roads in your head lead to that thought. Well, I guess it's also a thing you can give yourself over to that's about a future. Hope. Actually, hope. Yes. Yeah. over to that's about a future hope hope yes yeah I mean I think I feel incredibly fortunate that

I was young enough to have another child after losing a child because I it doesn't fix you no of course it doesn't it doesn't bring back your dead child but it gives you hope and also I wouldn't have had three children. I was really, really happy. I had two girls and I was absolutely delighted with my two girls. And then I had my third child after Maud had died, who was a boy. And I do still, you know, he's nine now. And I do, And I do still, you know, he's nine now. And I do, I really think he is like a sort of extension of her. And I wouldn't, he wouldn't be here had she not died.

It's a really difficult sort of concept to get my head around. Because I now have sort of changed history. And now I'm like, yes, but I might have had three. I might have. I mean, I honestly don't think I would. But I would like to think that I could have all my three children together in one place um yeah actually you're right that idea of the new baby when you've lost a child so you've got three of them in your head yeah but then one has had has gone for the other to be yeah yeah exactly it's actually a very huge thing it is it's quite a difficult thing and and actually when I look back now to my sort of I need to have another child you know 10 minutes after you know she died

you know it was because I wanted her back you know I really do think you know I it was because I wanted her back. You know, I really do think, you know, God, I absolutely wanted her to come back. Because when I had my first scan, and I hadn't found out the sex of any of my children, I hadn't found out, I loved the idea that it was a surprise. But I needed to know with the third one, because I wanted so much to have a girl. And of course I wanted her.

And when they said I was having a boy, I cried. I mean, I'm so ashamed of that. I'm really ashamed. I'm like, how could I have cried? I would, I, how could I not have wanted this incredible boy and even been picky under the circumstances um but it was because I wanted her back so in a way it was kind of a a good thing that I I had a boy I hadn't had a boy before it was a whole new thing for me you'll know about this yeah what about having boys I do yeah yeah

but then I think as well I don't think there's to me it's not shameful to cry when you find out it's not the same baby because i think there's something about i mean maude was only two and that's such a visceral age as well it's about the weight of them yeah the feel of their hands and the pudge yeah yeah the cheeks and she had amazing cheeks i don't know if you've seen a picture of her i've seen she's like properly oh my god i'd like to hear about more because actually it's fitting we start with her because she's the reason why we're sat down here at all yeah yeah that's true so um well she was um it's really interesting because when people talk about more they only really talk about her in regard not being alive and it's unusual

when people say what was she like because you think oh god nobody really asks what she was like um it gets me really emotional she was really and I know it's a cliche because she you know she's never been allowed to do anything wrong because she died but she was like this you know my my daughter Bessie is has this incredible life force and this spirit and she was my first and she kind of came out and she absolutely knew what she wanted and she what she sort of rails against everything and um and then Maud came along and I was like, oh God, this is really easy. Oh, I see. Now I understand why people have lots of children because it doesn't have to be so hard. She, she was like, she slept through the night really early on. She never, she very rarely cried. She giggled. She was funny. She was, she was just so easy and loving.

Not that Bessie isn't because she was, she was just more challenging. She's, she's sort of more, I suppose is more like me. Um, Maud was very easy and I would just, I'd put her in a car and I just like, she was always smiling and always laughing. Um, and I mean, you know, it's funny because I wish I'd written stuff down because I've sort of forgotten and I'm really ashamed to say that I I wish I'd and at the at the time of her death people like you must write stuff down and I couldn't because it was too painful I just couldn't I was like oh you need to enjoy you had her for two and a half years you You need to, I was like, I can't, I can't even think about enjoying. I can't, it's too painful that she's not here. But 10 years on, I wish I had.

Because there's a lot that I've forgotten. So. I wouldn't have written anything. Yeah, it's funny because. It's how you are as well. You have to kind of. You grieve how you are. And that is not, I'm not a writer down. Exactly. I'm not have written anything. Yeah, it's funny because... It's how you are as well. You have to kind of... You grieve how you are. And that is not...

I'm not a writer down. Exactly. I'm not a writer down. I'm just too... I'm not disciplined enough. I'm exactly the same. Yeah. And I know other friends who've lost children,

they're very different and they've written to their child every day. And I feel... And they've written down memories. child every day and I feel and I you know and they've written down memories and I I I I feel really envious I'm like I wish I'd done that I didn't do it but it's it's I couldn't I absolutely couldn't have done it it was too painful to I couldn't look at a photograph of her for about four years and I couldn't look at a video of her until this year like you know video yeah the video thing when you're you know when you're

and you see them in 360 degrees and you hear their voice yeah you know there's something about hearing their voice that is... It's really funny. I feel really emotional this week because I don't normally cry all the time. But this week, I have just felt really, really emotional. I think it's because I'm so tired because I'm doing so many things, which is obviously another reason why I'm here.

It's also a sad thing, Clara. I know, I know, I know, I know. But I think I keep so busy. I'm so busy all the time that I I have really felt I sort of haven't had time for her and when life isn't quite as chaotic as it is at the moment I have this space that I kind of have for her and I just sort of haven't had it and oh god I'm so sorry okay the last thing you need to do is apologize I just haven't had it and oh god I'm so sorry the last thing you need to do is apologize I just haven't had it in the past month or so and I just feel yeah but there's a lot that happens in our how we deal with things and I think the overriding thing I would say is just sitting and listening

is just you know wherever possible please cut yourself slack about all this stuff because also it's all yours to own and whilst you're not the first person to go through losing a child you're the only person that's lost more d and you're the only family and that how family golly how we all deal with everything you know you walk into every household down this street and everybody's got different ways of doing similar processes you know yeah and also it's not chronological grief is crazy it doesn't do that it doesn't kind of go faithful to the number of years no it's chaos it is and we're now i realized um we're only a few weeks away for what is the 11th anniversary and i was thinking as well that because mordy died so it's january the 1st 2011 yeah so i was thinking about the sort of profundity of it being on New Year's Day.

So you've literally got an old, old previous life and then this new life. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is so, I was talking about it yesterday to somebody. Just, and I was like, you know, I do really feel like, I mean, there's always that new thing new year clean slate it's any any day that your child dies is going to be a very significant day for I mean I I work for a bereavement charity now and so I you know it's if it it's the 22nd of November or the 17th of March, whatever it is, but there's New Year's Day. It's also a day when nobody does anything.

So it's like you can't even be distracted. I'm a real bury my head in the sand. I will just get on with work and I will just, that's what I know I have to do to kind of just get the day over with. Just get it over with. And I do find that the build up to the day is usually worse than the day over with just get it over with get it and I do find that the build-up to the day is usually worse than the day but there is something about that week between Christmas and New Year that week of sort of nothing nothingness where you don't know what day it is you haven't you know you just sort of you're confused you know and everyone's bored and depressed because they've opened all their presents and then we have this build-up and then everyone's like happy new year and i'm like oh

fuck off seriously fuck off i have nothing to celebrate here um less you know more so now because you know it has been it will be 11 years and i think i'm not saying people have forgotten because they haven't obviously my dear dear dear friends but people forget it's fine I get it so they'll send you a happy new year you know round robin and I'm like oh seriously go fuck yourselves um but also you know the the new year the the you know cleaning of the slate you know it is very interesting because I would and this is what I was saying to somebody yesterday it's like my life is really divided into two halves it's you know before she died and after she died and that is exact exacerbated by this new year thing because as soon as I got through the first of

January I really feel like a weight's been lifted I her birthday is the 7th of October so I kind of feel like September I'm sort of falling down the rabbit hole and then I have to get through her birthday which actually I find the hardest day much more so than the day she died I find her birthday just impossible. And as the years go on, I find it more impossible because I'm really trying to sort of work out who she would be now because she would be 13 now. But of course she isn't. She's always going to be two.

That disparity really messes with my head. And also when it's her birthday you're just you remember the birth and you remember you know every aspect of the birth and it's so and the joy and the pain and you know and I had her at home so you know and it was so I had you know the same place you're living in now yes yeah so I had her at home. So, you know, and it was so, I had, you know. Is it the same place you're living in now? Yes, yeah. So I had her at home and she died at home. So where we live now is very much sort of her.

I think of it, it's her and we're moving. So I've, this is another, yeah. So we're moving and I'm trying to kind of adjust to this because I know it's, I know she's not there. I know she'll be wherever I am but the significance of that place is profound um but um god I can't remember what I was talking about now what was I talking about well I have things I would like to talk about because um obviously primarily this the podcast I've been doing is about being a working mom and you know

having lots of things going on yeah but I thought from the very beginning I was really I'm first of all I'm really so thankful to you for wanting to talk to me about this because honestly I think I think this is a really important conversation and I feel really privileged that you're you're being open with me so thank you and I'm just so sorry Clara it's so shit it's really shit no it's not I mean it's that I do honestly think it's the well if for any parent it it would it's the shittiest thing that can happen to a person yeah and interestingly as well it's like so I was thinking because I know that we this is the first day we've actually met yeah but we were chatting um you know about about having this this conversation and about you know things that were coming up and you were, about having this conversation and about, you know, things that were coming up and you were saying about the taboo of losing a child.

And I was thinking that I think it's partly because when you're a new parent and from that moment you realise you've made this awful pact, basically, that your heart is wrapped up in this other person and you've got little control about what happens to them and there's all these awful scenarios you know could happen, your peripheral vision, and you spend a lot of time forcing yourself not to think about them but you couldn't let you can't you can't live thinking i mean i did live thinking that something

terrible was going to happen for a good few years after she died because once something terrible happens to you like that you kind of, it's weird, because actually I don't, I'm really not like that now. I think I'm much, I sort of can reassure myself, you know, that it's not going to, I have more faith in the universe. But I think when your child dies, you know, your whole world view completely changes because you

you know we like to think we have some control over our destiny and our life we like to think which is sort of what you're talking about like if you don't think about it it's not going to happen almost also that you talk do think about you're going to somehow invite it in yeah or that or you think oh my god well if I'm a good kind loving human being bad things are not going to happen to me you know you sort of have you make a pact with the universe that yeah but of course when something like that happens you think but this wasn't supposed to happen to me because I was a good person and I and I was a good mother and I I did everything I should and I'm a good girl and so not only do you lose your child and you are complete your life is devastated you sort of

have to rebuild your whole world view because you're like you lose your confidence I mean I'd say every bereaved parent I've ever spoken to has said they their confidence is on the floor whether their child you know you know had an accident or you know or their child was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor whatever it is you feel as a parent you have failed because your job on earth is to keep your child alive so if they are dead it is your fault it is so building your building your your sort of life up again and building your world around your grief is I mean it's the hardest thing I've ever done it's the I mean I'm hard is like an understatement you know just not wanting to to take my own life or not wanting to get out of bed

or making myself get out of bed, which of course, you know, I did because I had another child. I have huge, huge respect for parents who've lost their only child. I do just think that is hard. I feel so grateful that I had another child and that I was able to have another child.

Can you remember much of that first bit when you had that? So Bessie was four or three? So Bessie was nearly four, yeah. She was nearly four. It's like, I do remember it and it's just black. It's really funny because it's sort of like when I look back on it I'm looking in on myself I'm sort of sitting on the ceiling I'm sort of like this weird crow that's sitting on the ceiling and I'm looking at my I'm looking at myself you know I couldn't function I couldn't brush my teeth I couldn't it was it was also the shock

because I because she died so suddenly you know we had a healthy child and then you know well she she wasn't healthy she was very sick but nobody worked out that she was very sick but as far as I was concerned myself and Jason she she was you know healthy and uh and then and then she's dead so overnight you know you live in this sort of world of innocence you know where you don't know anything about child children dying and you know like as you say it's like you it is a taboo people don't want to talk about it because it's they think that it's going to come into their world it will somehow take well i know and it is i mean worrying about saying the wrong oh my god i could write a book about it you know they're worrying about saying the wrong thing or they're

you know that I think I think it's so extreme it's unthink it is unthinkable it is I mean I honestly I remember at that time thinking I can't describe this yeah there just aren't words yeah there's still a lot of work to be done isn't yeah there really aren't words there certainly aren't words in the English language I don't know about other languages to describe what it is because like if I say devastated it doesn't even touch the surface it's it's a feeling I mean I really I really couldn't I can't put it into words um it's like sort of being in the wilderness and being in hell it sort of felt like I was in hell for a year but during that year I was pregnant as well so um you know initially when she died you know that they were you know they put me on antidepressants and and um some valium and it sort of calmed me down but then as soon as I was pregnant three months later I was like I you know I think I should just you know go cold turkey and that was my choice I know other

bereaved other women who've been pregnant after and they haven't their children have been fine but I was just like because I was in the terrible things happened to me I'm going to be that one percent that takes you know fluoxetine when they're pregnant and, and something will go wrong with the baby. So I was like, so I sort of went through that year, cold Turkey. Um, and it was like, it was like sort of walking through this hellish landscape. And I have really beautiful friends and family who pulled me through. But, and a really wonderful husband who, we love each other very much. And we are very much, you know, together in our grief.

But it is the most isolating thing. It's, I mean, it's just brutal. Yeah. It's so brutal. And I haven't even, I mean, I don't even think I've even sort of explained it's just brutal. It's so brutal. And I haven't even, I mean, I don't even think I've even sort of explained it by saying that, but it's... Well, like you say, probably language leaves us

a little bit adrift sometimes, doesn't it? I mean, even the word sad isn't really, I feel like you need about 40 words for that too, to be honest. But I was thinking as well about the fact that it's a whole different thing to be busy and trying to keep things going with work and children when you're also dealing with grief not just yours if you're a child your other half and what was going on in your working life around this time um because you've been how long have you been acting since you were oh well I know I was acting so I went to drama school and I um so I I worked quite a lot in my 20s and then in my 30s

I didn't work so much so I was like and I was I I kind of no I say I gave it up my agent at the time dumped me I got the sort of that's harsh oh harsh the time dumped me. I got the sort of- Oh, that's harsh. Oh, harsh. Harsh. I was 34 and I got the letter and it was like, we think you're great, but there's really nothing more we can do for you. And I was like, oh my God, what am I going to do? But I need to say, but I had retrained.

So I was making jewellery as well. And my jewellery business was going really, really well. But I never really cared because all I ever wanted to do was act and that's something your husband does too so yeah he's an actor and and I just I spoke to a friend and I said will you help me get a new agent and she was like I I will help you get a new agent but I'm going she's older than me and she was like I'm I'm going to say something now and it's really hard and she was like why don't you have a baby and enjoy your life yeah and she was like you are really really good at doing something else and she said there are so many actresses just enjoy your life and have kids because you could put it off and put it off and I was like

I was I was raging I was like how dare she and then I slept on it and I woke up the next morning I was like she's right she's right I'm going to have a baby and enjoy enjoy my life and otherwise I mean I do know actresses who've just thought well what if I get pregnant and then the phone rings and I was like I don't want to do that I don't want to do I want to have children and there's never going to be a right so so it that's sort of what triggered it so I you know got pregnant quite quickly after and I really didn't think about acting at all and it was really lovely that Jason and Jason's career was just sort of flying flying high and it was lovely because I kind of still felt I was a part of that world even though I wasn't anymore through him I was a part of that world and um then really weird and then when more died really interestingly I had this

longing to act again really absolutely like what do you think that was to do with I think it was to do with channeling my pain not wanting to sound like a wanker but I think it was to do with channeling my pain not wanting to sound like a wanker but i think it was to do with having this having a place to put having yeah and jason didn't jason neither of us could work for a good couple of months or jason didn't work he was he was doing a play he was starting rehearsals for a play just before she died you know and we need you know we're self-employed we needed the money because am i right in thinking there's zero financial support there's none nothing that is horrific yeah and so if you're self-employed i was actually really shocked yeah yeah if you're

self-employed so we couldn't pay our mortgage so he tried to rehearse about five days after she died it was a play at the royal court and then it was like it became really clear after about three days that it just it wasn't going to work so we we tried to sign on honestly it was it was so you try and sign on your child's just died you're speaking to somebody on the phone who's going sorry what what who's died my daughter's just died. Well, you're going to have to send us the death certificate. I mean, it was sort of like that. So actually, we, so Roger Michelle, who very sadly died about six weeks ago, died very suddenly. Roger, who's a really good friend of ours, he just lent us money. money he lent us money and it meant that we could we could live and and not worry about money because it was scary it was really scary actually i don't wonder what resources are there i think i think there is something going on in parliament at the moment where they're trying to kind of get

some sort of bereavement support but even then then, it's really minimal. But even if it makes you feel a little bit seen, it's better than being invisible, I think. Absolutely. But yes, you're right. It's not enough. But I think that thing of it just being like you've fallen off the edge of something. Yeah.

I mean, I think, you know, if you have an employer, probably they will do the right thing. But if you're self-employed, it's a completely different story. So Jason went off to work after about a month or two. And I'd see him go and I'd be so jealous. I'd be like, oh my God, you can go somewhere and you can put on a costume and you can be somebody else and you can block it out for five minutes

because I couldn't, there wasn't a waking there wasn't a second of the day for probably six months and not a second where I wasn't consumed by what had happened longing for her missing her and so but I knew that Jason could have this sort of out and and I think that was difficult for him and he would say that he would be on set he'd do you know whatever he had to do and then he'd come back to being him and then it would hit him again so it you know it swings and roundabouts yeah but it really kind of made me think I want I really want to act again but I didn't do anything about it and then um and then I got a phone call from a

director who I'd worked with when I was acting and he he he said to me I'm auditioning for this play and I just keep hearing your voice and I really really want you to do it and I was like I don't know if I can I just too much has happened I don't know if I could get on stage I'm a completely different person now and he was like well look have the weekend to think about it. And, and, and I was, I really just thought, well, I can, if I say no, it will be cowardice and it will be the, it will be the, it will be the sort of coward's way. Cause it would be nice to just stay in my little world of safety and comfort. But I know that if I don't say, if I don't say yes, I will really kick myself. So I said yes, and it was torture.

It was real torture because I was like, what am I doing? I'm not this person anymore. But then as soon as we opened and we had an audience, I was like, ah, I remember how much I love it. So was that Leopold Stanton? No, that was a play called fear and loathing in the third row it's um I only played you Sophie because I am one I only play Jews in holocaust

plays um so yeah I was playing a Jew in a play about the holocaust um which is fine I have a problem with that um I. I'm very niche. But it was... It's kept you busy. Yeah, it has kept me busy. And so I got my agent, I got a new agent, my lovely agent, Jess, who's at United,

who used to be Ruth's assistant. Okay, cool. And so I got my agent, Jess address and just sort of bumble along. Just bumble along and just pick up work where I can. Playing Jews. I actually saw you in Leopoldstadt when it opened. Did you? Yeah, I went with my mum.

Yeah, I haven't told you that before. But yeah, it was really excellent. But I feel like it was quite a long time ago. Yes, because it was a long time ago. No, but the run, but you've only just finished again. No, but there was a pandemic in the middle. I know that. But even then, I think, when did it, I do remember the pandemic.

Did you know, Sophie, that with, you might not have heard. Is that why everything shuts? Something happened, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I know. Yeah, so we were open, i think we played about six weeks and then and then so march 2000 and what was it 2020 we were we got to the theater and it was and it was the night that boris had said everything is clear you know when did it open for that just 2019 because i thought

it was i feel like it opened 2020. We started rehearsals for it. I feel like I've been doing it my whole life. Oh, wow. We started rehearsals sort of October 2019 and we opened January 2020 and then we closed March.

I must have seen it in January then. Yeah, we closed March. Just before the world filled up again. But actually, it really, and then we did it, we picked it up again

August this year, but it was very different when we did it this time around well um you've said so you've finished that and you mentioned you've got lots of projects on the go so you have your work with is it slow that you are yeah the bereavement charity yeah yeah so slow is uh stands for sudden loss of your world is that on. Oh my gosh, what does it stand for? Yes, surviving. Surviving the loss of your world. That makes sense.

It was set up by two bereaved mums. And it essentially is just a group where bereaved parents go, drink cups of tea and eat cake and just talk for an hour and a half every week and they set it up when they both lost their daughters and because there wasn't there's not a huge amount of support um and I think it is I could talk for hours about this because when when Maude died Maude died there was a service it's now been cut but in Camden

where I live, the bereavement services were quite good and I had this bereavement counsellor, she wasn't good she really wasn't, you know I think it's pot luck with therapists and counsellors and she just she didn't work for me and I

would be like, and also I'd sort of be there going hold on but there's nothing you can say that's gonna make the that you know she she was Australian she'd go oh have you tried tapping have you tried like tapping you and tap and I'd be like my my kids just died I don't think tapping is gonna do it or you know she was like oh you could switch the light on and off. You know, that sometimes helps. And I was like, what? What? That's a strange one. So I stopped going to her

and then I looked in the local paper and I found this group. It was just like... Actually, that's probably more what you want. Yeah, and I really do think... That space where there's so much, you don't even have to say things. Exactly.

I understand. Yeah, it's like sitting in a room full of people who know, who don't have the words as I said before but know where you are that was so comforting to me and also I really thought my life was over I just thought well I'm never gonna smile again I'm never gonna laugh again how could I ever be happy again it's impossible and so going to a group where you've got people who are newly bereaved, who've been bereaved for 10 years, for me, gave me hope. Because I'd look at the people who had been 10 years bereaved. I couldn't, first of all, believe that they were

alive and surviving and walking around and having jobs and getting stuff done I mean I just couldn't get my head around it but I did just think okay so so that I didn't believe it would happen to me but I still knew that it was possible because I was like but that's not going to happen to me because she's never going to come back so I'm never going to feel better it's never going to be right um so so then a couple of years ago I trained and I work for them now so I work as a facilitator so I have a group on a Wednesday and I have maybe 15 people who come to my group and um and I think of all the I know it doesn't work for everybody group group it's not I would It's not even therapy. It's just sitting, having cups of tea, eating cake,

and talking and going, no, you're not mad for thinking that. No, you're not mad for having that thought. That's completely normal. And I think that is so comforting. So I know that it really works. Yeah. um so i know that it's really it really works yeah um so i do that and i started a dress company um with my friend tanya at the beginning of the pandemic did you know there was a pandemic there was this pandemic yeah yeah yeah there was a little bit of time yeah yeah yeah shops and stuff like that yeah yeah it's quite hard to get an online soup yeah

that was really tricky is that what it was um i'm so glad you i think you're glad i told you um so we started the it's sort of two years ago around this time and we it was i i taught my i was having a sort of quiet period and I and I learned how to sew with my friend Chris's incredible seamstress oh wow you actually can yeah she taught me how to sew because my brilliant skill oh my god I mean I'm rubbish at it I mean I can do it but I'm not a natural sewer uh I'm not kind I'm a little bit too chaotic and it's sort of like a puzzle making clothes it's sort of back to front and inside out and I'm not kind I'm a little bit too chaotic and it's sort of like a puzzle making clothes it's sort of back to front and inside out and I'm not very good at back to front and inside out

and so Chris who taught me I just go to her house and um her husband had had died a year before so we sort of I'd go and we'd sit and we'd talk about grief and it was and and I taught her how to bead which is my jewelry and we did this skill swap and she taught me how to sew and we would talk about our respective dead child and dead husband and watch the real housewives of Beverly Hills on her television and and she taught me how to sort of sew and pattern cut so I made a dress that is the dress I'm wearing now which is sort of my I'd taken those I mean you literally made that one or you made the original I made the original I didn't actually make this one this was was made by Karim one of our seamstresses um it's very beautiful it's so lovely um but I made I was like I want to

make my perfect dress and it's proportionally it's got to have this because I would see like I am a complete clothes obsessive and always have been and I'd see I don't have dresses and they were sort of 98 perfect but there was always something wrong with them. So I wanted to create the perfect one. So I feel that I have created the perfect, it's perfect for me. And that was the start of our business. So we had this dress and we made, I can't remember in our first, but like maybe 20 and set up a website and we put three grand in each. I mean, it was so sort of gung ho. We were like, we'd really did not think it through. Um, but we made this website and we put three grand in each I mean it was so sort of gung-ho we were like we really did not think it through but we made this website and we just got we pulled in every favor from every friend and said please can you wear this and put this on your Instagram please

and it absolutely has taken off so now we have this really brilliant business that I sort of can't believe and it's kind of grown and I'm it's it's we need to employ people that's where we are now that's exciting yeah yeah also and I'm listening to you know how it was the incarnation of the very beginning yeah it's like there's this nice sort of poetry idea of Maudie being sort of present into it yeah I totally think, but I feel that she is so much a part of everything I do. I think sort of creatively, you know, when she died, I really, because I am a doer and a maker and I love making things and I've always used my hands and I always like to learn new skills. But when she died, I couldn't, I had no creativity at all and I didn't think I ever would again. And I do think that she is completely woven into our brand.

And I think all the sort of life that we've both lived is we've pumped in all our experiences. Because I think, you know, starting a business at, you know, in your late 40s we were oh she's tanya's not 50 yet um is difficult your energy goes down but you plow you plow who you now are and all that that that is into it and it sort of you know i don't think we did it in the right way i'm sure there's a way of starting a business i'm sure there's a way of starting a business. I'm sure there's like, there are books that are written on it. But I think when you're older, you just go, well, let's just do it. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't matter if we're doing it wrong. Yeah. It doesn't matter if that's not exactly right. What I'm really thinking about is how do I reach the other people like me out there that are looking, also looking for the perfect dress?

Exactly. You know, and you know, we wanted it, you know, we wanted a business that was, you know, incredibly sustainable. We wanted people, because our dresses aren't cheap, you know and you know we we wanted it you know we wanted a business that was you know incredibly sustainable we wanted people because our dresses aren't cheap you know we wanted people to buy something that will last yeah you know that that that you can keep forever yeah you know yeah that like you know because both of our mums would make our clothes for us and often if we're sort of designing a new dress we will look through old photographs of ourselves age five and go oh I really like that yeah with the smocking yeah and the little peter pan collar and that will be a starting point the clothes that our mothers made for us in the same fabrics because we use so much liberty print we in fact we pretty much only use liberty print um so it's sort of a nostalgic dressing and i dressed both my girls in always in liberty print

i was thinking about the pictures that you put on the opine is instagram post of maudie yeah wearing outfits yeah yeah yeah totally little seed of absolutely later became but yeah when i was thinking about the fact that all the things you're doing so your acting helps give it you know it's good to have a place to put your yeah emotions creatively and then you're weaving her into the clothes and obviously a really significant connection is with the charity work as well and I was thinking you know and I hope you don't think this is a very sort of twee idea but i was imagining if i'd gone through something similar and how you have your baby and you every step you're it's about you know encouraging independence and slowly getting them out out further into the world

but when they die i wondered if it almost feels like they kind of almost get sort of reabsorbed like they come back to you because then you are there's a big it's a big thing to be the person also has to bring their legacy forward as well like as a mother that's basically what you you want her to i tried to yeah i mean i i feel that i carry her through through my life with me and And I think that's because I never shy away from talking about her. I never shy away from talking about her death. And I actually really like talking about her

because it makes her present. Exactly. And also for all of her stepbrothers and brothers. All the family. Yeah, I mean, she is so much part of it. And also friends. Because as you mentioned earlier, people are so scared. It's such a taboo, a dead child.

Because people are scared to mention her because they think, well, I don't want to upset her. I don't want to trigger. You just think, well, you're never going to trigger me because she's on my mind. I mean, I know it sounds ridiculous, but she really is on my mind a lot of the time so it's never like oh my god you've mentioned Maud and now I feel sad I mean it could never be it's always better to mention the the the chart I mean always and I I really try and give and I know I can I've sort of had this perception I know when people

are feeling nervous about it so I do it yeah and I just think I'm giving you permission do you feel like you have to set the tone sometimes I do but I don't have a problem with that because I realised that before she died I would have been as awkward as anybody else I'm not I you know I would I would have been probably crap but I and I think that's why I I'm really forgiving and know, I would have been probably crap. But I, and I think that's why I'm really forgiving. And I just, I mean, people have said some stupid shit. And some people have said a really, really unforgivable stupid shit. And not so much now, but when she first died.

And I've never forgotten it. No, I wouldn't. And I've got a massive grudge. No, but I sort of weirdly do. Yeah. There are some people, and then other people just know what to say. They just, you know, but it is so,

it is a minefield. It's really complicated. You cannot say the right thing. A lot of our time in the group is spent, you know, talking about when people say stupid shit or people don't understand or people think that you know well it's 10 years come on get over it get you know that the you know you should be in a better place I mean you know it's this is all so preposterous you know that is somebody in the group yesterday was you know they lost their child four months ago and they were being told by, you know, a family member that they need to stop being depressed.

You know, it's, you know, and I was, and I sort of think I couldn't, if that had happened to me, I'd never forgive that person. No. To me, that's unforgivable. Yeah. This is a life sentence this is something you have to learn to live with um how did I get onto this well I was talking about the sort of legacy I suppose and also the um yeah the legacy with Maudie I think you know she died of sepsis and we Jason and I had taken her to the hospital two days on the trot we'd taken her to UCH and they hadn't they

hadn't detected it they they told they told me it was croup and they sort of missed they misdiagnosed her so you know we have you know we've done a lot of campaigning and and I think a lot of change has happened since she died and it's not just us campaigning the sepsis the uk sepsis trust amazing and and a lot of you know there's a lot more awareness of sepsis now a bit like that sort of that when meningitis you know because they're quite similar but sepsis is very difficult to detect it's not as easy as meningitis um it's secondary illness um but we have done a lot of campaigning and it has been really difficult I have found it really painful um but I I do think well this is I do it for her and I do it in her

name and I just I love you know when Jason or I get an email from somebody or he does Twitter I don't do Twitter but he you know he he'll get a message saying I took my kid to A&E and um I mentioned sepsis and the doctors hadn't spotted it and then it was so thank you very much so we do get quite a lot of that and I do just think that's incredible I mean there's always a part of me that's like I wish it hadn't have been her and I wish I never was in this position and I never got these messages but she died and I can't have her back so I I've always been quite sort of glass half full it's like I'll take what I can from this fucking shit yeah situation I'll just take the goodness and and that is a good thing that things have changed

yeah because life goes on so you have to well I suppose especially if you've got young children there has to be a choice to yeah still there for them and find the joy again. But I did make a choice. I did. I absolutely remember. I remember thinking I could just stay in bed and, well, I remember thinking I could stay in bed and I could start drinking

and I could take shitloads of drugs and that would be a way because it's I I understand I mean I I totally understand why because it's it's yeah I I it's too painful I can't do this I can't um or I could just walk out and walk in front of a bus not that wouldn't be very fair to the bus driver, but I wasn't really in my right mind. But I did make a choice. And I was like, I cannot do that. I cannot do it for Bessie. I cannot do it for my mother. I cannot do it for my friends or Jason, or I have to keep going. And I will do it for her. And I did it. And I do do it for her. And I do, I think that is, And I did it.

And I do do it for her. And I do. I think that is, you know, I do so much with my day. I cram in so much to a day. And it's always, I do. She's so with me all the time. I do everything. I think for all my children, have I even mentioned Gilbert? The child I had after Maud.

I was thinking he must have his birthday coming up. So I had Gilbert three weeks after the anniversary. Yeah, I was thinking it must be January. So his birthday is the 17th of Jan. So it's, yeah, it's two and a half weeks. Well, that's nice to have a birthday. So that's sort of part of the sort of New Year. So after New Year's Day, I think, right,

that's over for another year. And then it's like Gilbert's birthday. So it's sort of like, it is like a sort of fresh start um but i do i do i put her into everything she is so much a part and i do carry her i do and i know it's a cliche because and i remember the bereaved parents in the group when i first started would say, no, but I carry them in my heart. And I'd be like, oh, I don't even understand what you mean. Because she felt so far away from me. And I'd be like, where are you?

Where have you gone? And also, as you said earlier, like that physical presence of a two-year-old, the weight of them, the pudge the the the carrying the changing the the pushing of the pram and then there's nothing it's not there anymore um I I felt that absence like it was so visceral I I felt her where are you and then you don't feel it over the years but I do really I mean not literally inside me but I feel that wherever I am she is yeah and I think that's because I talk about her all the time and and and share her yeah and that's love I think yeah

all comes back to that as well well I'm always going to be her mother exactly yeah and I still mother her when people say how many children do you have how do you it's so brutal well yeah I think in that split second when people ask me I kind of make a choice am I going to tell them is it have I the energy to say well I had three but I lost one or, I had three, but I lost one. Or sometimes I say three and I don't explain. And people go, oh God, you must have your hands full. And I go, yeah, yeah. And they'll say what ages and I don't tell them. Sometimes I'll meet somebody and I think, oh, I think you can carry it.

I think you're going to get it. You know, if I'm at a party or something. I was away last weekend and I was sitting next to somebody at this party and I was like yeah he can totally deal with this so I told him and we had this brilliant conversation because actually what it's done is just sort of I kind of feel I'm really people sort of open up to me more now and I think people yeah people just sort of there's not a lot of small talk it's just like you just go straight in and talk about the kind of deep

important stuff so we we met at this party and we were chatting and it was just like we had this brilliant chat and he told me about his sister who died and and I know that we both got something really special out of it and I don't think that happened before yeah I think I've got this sort of different perspective and well as well it makes you think about all the other times when you've been the person saying to someone um you know what's going on what how many kids you have yeah yeah yeah you ask them and the things that are actually behind I know it's we give away and what we don't there's so much of that isn't there yeah it's such a difficult question now because it really is in that split second i think when she first died i mean i told everybody or if you were having you know like if you were in the program for a play and they wanted to write a

blurb about you you know what do you put in yeah yeah yeah these things these sometimes they're seemingly insignificant things but obviously they're huge because they're what represents you and how you put yourself out to other people yeah yeah I mean it's quite you know with the business with it with our Instagram it's I hadn't that that post that I did about Maud was the first time I'd mentioned it and I, I feel I, I wanted to mention it before because she, to me is so much a part of our, our brand. And I didn't also want people to look at our Instagram feed and think that

Tanya and I were these two sort of, you know, lucky middle-class slim, you know, relatively attractive women who have this perfect life. I want to be my authentic self. And I think I am, you know, I am a bereaved mother. And I, I, I want people to know that I don't want people to think I have this perfect life because I don't and also it means that for the other people out there going through the same thing they can see

that there's ways there there is life after yeah there is a life to be had after um and I and I you know I do want people to know that is there something you wish you could go back and tell yourself then or if there's anyone out there going through something similar is there anything that you think is a really something that someone said to you that actually became quite a good thing to hold on to do you think well I think I think it is just that hope thing and I think it I think it just everything to me comes down to having a little glimmer of hope that the terrible the terrible brutal the first year or two honestly it it does get better you cannot imagine that it will but it does and something else that really helped me and I still do this now when I feel sort of anxious

and overwhelmed because obviously I'm perimenopausal now and like my hormones are like and I get I've never had anxiety before but I've started getting it whoa yeah and I'm sort of and but when when she first died I kind of get into this spiral of but what about the future I can't you think about the future and think I can't do this and you think about the future yeah the future without her just the future what does my future look like without her what what but it's too big to to think and and um somebody said to me i i'm sure it's quite common to say you know this but i i didn't realize it before and they were like just don't stay in the present stay in the present get through the next five minutes make a cup of tea that was it was like make a cup of tea drink the cup of tea think about the cup of tea do not think

I said it to my son this morning who's nine and was going but I'm worried about my future and I was like what are you talking about it you've got to stay in the present yeah I mean I do have to remind myself of that now because I will spiral. But as soon as I go, you know what? I'm just going to get through the next five minutes. And I would say, when you're newly bereaved, that is the best piece of advice that was given to me. Make a cup of tea.

Cup of tea to cup of tea. That's what I did. I went from cup of tea to cup of tea to cup of tea. And just drank the cup of tea and watched shit on the telly that was the other thing i did i watched the biggest we're just just like proper mindless any any installment of the real housewives ask me any question because i know i've watched every series it was it got me through the first year. I'm thinking about cups of tea and watching crap on television.

That's kind of how I exist anyway. Well, it sort of is how I still exist. I mean, given, like if I wasn't so busy, that would be my dream, just staying in bed with cups of tea watching The Real Housewives. But actually the thing you said about the tea is actually advice they give to lots of people dealing with anxiety and trauma. Oh, really? Okay. Trauma, it's just, you know, keep breathing. One foot in with anxiety and trauma. Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, trauma, it's just, you know,

keep breathing one foot in front of the other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're out of the fire kind of feeling. Yeah. But with the tea, there's actually, because my husband Richard, and you wouldn't mind me saying this, he was getting very anxious earlier in the year

and he went to see a chap and he told, I'm going to throw it up now that I wasn't wholly listening to the entire story, but basically it was something to do with a soldier and the enemy getting closer and not knowing what to do strategically. Okay. And he just did nothing and just had a cup of tea.

Nice. Sometimes you just need to just be in the moment and do nothing for a minute. I think it's like sage advice. I mean, the other thing i did was walk i walked actually my mom does that yeah i just walked my stepdad last year and she's just walking and walking just putting as you just said that's what made me think of it was just putting one foot in front of the other and i have a dog um i have a different dog but when maude died i had a different dog um and i had a friend who

would pick me up every morning just bundle me in her car drive me up to hamster heath literally drag me around just drag me around for an hour yeah and it would and then i and then drop me home she did it for six months every day wow Wow. Every single day. She's dead now, unfortunately. She was much older than me, Gillian. Just the most wonderful human being. Yeah, she sounds like an incredible person. She was the most incredible human. And I love that. No question.

Just here I am. I'm here. Time for the walk. Get in my car. Off we go. Off we go. We're doing it. And just that momentum of putting one foot in front of the other.

And also watching the seasons change. And like the little thing tiny little things you know and the world moving forward even though it it does sound like a cliche but it really did help me so cups of tea walking and the real housewives of beverly hills that that's my advice okay yeah oh, Clara, thank you so much. I hope you feel this might go a little way towards helping ease the taboo as well. I hope so.

I know that it's an awful thing that's led you to have this be a big part of your life, but I'm very grateful to Maudie that she meant we could meet today and talk about all of this. And I think that there'll be people out there that feel a little bit more seen which is really important and also for everybody else that's nervous about how to broach a lot of this you know yeah um it's a massive deal to be able to talk about it and I think you know I was thinking before because we've

we've come a long way haven't we with miscarriage and death in pregnancy and early birth but that's still babies and we're kind of almost in a way getting better at dealing with that yeah formed small people you know children young people that's that's the next step in getting yeah conversations out there I think well I mean I definitely think it's better than it was 10 years ago I it does feel like we're shifting I think also like podcasts and things I mean it's just yeah but better with the communication I think also you can find things

like you know like with the Instagram post that you did on your iPioneers site that stuff just helps shift as well the fact that what you see in the images everybody's got stories behind things but yeah I just want to send you lots of love

thank you my love thank you for having me i hope i haven't made you late oh i feel i shouldn't really keep you too long after that um sorry i'm doing some tidying gentle tidying up while I talk to you uh I know you're probably feeling a bit emotionally drained I know that um that's quite a normal response and my producer Claire who wasn't with me when I spoke to Clara and she listened to them the chat afterwards so that's how she felt it's a lot but it it's important. And I just feel so grateful to Clara for talking to me. I really do.

Thank you so much, Clara. Thank you to you. It's funny because I'm in my kitchen tidying up right now because I've got an extra five kids in the house because it's my second one down's birthday party, joint birthday with a friend, so they're having a 13th. And I thought at first, oh, is that really tactless to be finishing this episode and all that we spoke about

with kids shouting in the background? I thought, oh, no, don't be silly. That's life, and it's life that pulls you through I would imagine I'm not supposing I know what it feels like but that seemed to be something that Clara was saying and new things seasons changing a little boy that's here because of what happened with her daughter yes the wheel turns and grief isn't chronological and yeah I suppose those new lives uh what pull us through to the next bit you know I'm sort of rambling a little bit because I don't really I don't really know how to come out of the back of talking about that. Giving it its complete fitting end.

Because it's just really sad, isn't it? It's just really, really sad. Anyway, if it's touched you in any way, on a more personal, deeper level level and i'm sending lots of love your way and uh yeah well actually lots of love to everybody and i'll see you next week um yeah to be honest this has come at quite a nice point in my day in terms of having this moment of peacefulness because you know what it's like when you're in the pace of life and everything's really busy

and you're kind of going from one bit of planning to the next and all the stuff you have to do and all the admin of raising a family and all that stuff. And then just now I'm just catching myself that, you know, right here, right now, my kids are healthy and having a nice time and the sun is shining and I'm just going to take a minute just to appreciate that yeah all right lots of love see you next week bye Thank you.