Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 59: Karen Gurney

Episode Date: March 7, 2022

Dr Karen Gurney is a psychosexologist who has been helping couples overcome sexual problems since 2003. I can see why. She is a reassuring presence and talks in a straightforward way about sex. She is full of wisdom about how to futureproof a long term relationship, as well as how to guide your children, especially as they get into their teens. This is an important chat I feel - as we Brits are famously buttoned up about sex. We talked about how I want to give my children the information and guidance for them to have happy sex lives in the future - and Karen admitted she feels nervous as well as excited about bringing up her own sons with the right messages. We also laughed about how my early attempts at sex education with my eldest son, backfired publicly in the park one day, when he was 4! For more information and resources, Karen recommends https://www.bishuk.com/ (good for teens) and the book Sex is a Funny Word by Cory Silverberg for younger kids.  kumon.co.uk/trial  kumon.ie/trial  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello darlings. I'm recording this on the way home from dropping the kids at school, walking past the road. So Richard is going to be thrilled with me. He's the one who puts it all together.

My husband, that is, editing it. And he says, record your intros and outros somewhere quiet. Nowhere windy. And it's like, yeah, but that's not where the mood takes me sometimes. Anyway, I hope you're all doing all right. I've been very quiet this week for a couple of reasons. One is kind of practical. I'm going on tour this weekend and I wanted to rest and hibernate a little so that I'm ready to, you know, go for it.

We start with four shows on the trot, which is quite a lot of singing, so I want to feel in good health. But it's also slightly emotional, I think, because the news has been so awful that I haven't really felt like doing much else other than staying very low-key, watching things unfold, a fair bit of crying. I mean, it's just so heartbreaking. We've really been through it, haven't we, the last few years? Anyway, it's made me, if I'm honest, feel a little bit peculiar about the fact that I'm about to do this sparkly kitchen disco tour. But I take heart from the fact, well, firstly, a lot of people bought tickets, so I have to give them a show. And also, I can't think of a single time in my life when music hasn't made me feel better, even if it's only in the here and now while it's on. So I'm just going to seek

solace in it, really, and fill my heart up a little. So let's do it. This week's podcast is, well, wow, she's like a really amazing woman. Dr. Karen Gurney. Oh. Well, that's not cool. Doesn't he know I'm recording a podcast? Mr. Motorbike person. Yes, so it's Karen Gurney who calls herself sex doctor. Listen, she really, really knows her stuff. God, I love speaking to people where they really have all the information.

It's just incredibly reassuring. She speaks a lot of sense. And it's funny because I've spoken to a sex coach before, Pavali, who lives in Delhi. And, you know, when I was contacting Karen, I thought, you know, obviously it's interesting, but I thought also I think I'm slightly confronting my own, well, slight prudishness, if I'm honest. It's really good to get better. Honestly, shove off. That's just too noisy, isn't it? Anyway, it's always good to get better at talking about sex I think I don't want to

continue on the awkwardness the Britishness thanks keen to dispel it although that being said I think it now means I'm doing a little bit what my mum did to me which is being incredibly open with the kids you know age-appropriate way and I don't mean my own personal intimate details by the way I've just been chatting some butts off and of course they are as mortified as I was when my mum used to do it with me so what goes around comes around anyway you're gonna love hearing from Karen and all her smart words when it comes to I don't know your own relationship with sex particularly in uh long-term monogamous relationships is her kind of main theme I think probably because those are the people that come and sit before her

saying what's wrong with us or what's wrong with me and she's saying well actually there's not as much wrong here as you might think sometimes it's about expectation and slightly changing the framework and then I'm trying to think of another phrase otherwise I'll start with the Bob's your uncle. Maybe that is the right one. Anyway I'm gonna stop talking to you from this windy windy place next to a noisy road when I get in. Yes of course you know me so well. Cup of tea will await my little cold fingers all right darling see you in a bit bye bye

well firstly I'm really excited um to talk to you I feel like there's a billion things we can talk about so I'm going to try not to take up all your time today um but I want to start there's a bit in your book where you say if you sit next to me at a dinner party, then you're in luck because I'm a really good person to sit next to at a dinner party. So if I just sat next to you at a dinner party and I say, oh, nice to meet you, what do you do? What do you say? Oh, gosh. I say I am a clinical psychologist specialising in people's sex lives. And that is everything from doing sex therapy with individuals and couples to doing sex research to speaking, writing and teaching about sex. And then what happens is people start asking questions about their own sex life. They start calling across the table to their partner and go, listen to this.

You were wrong. Sometimes arguments break out. I mean, all kinds of things. wrong um sometimes arguments break out I mean all kinds happens but it's never boring because and I suppose that's why I'm in this field probably sex is so fascinating and even though I talk about it all day every day I never get bored talking about it so although it does come up at dinner parties and then as soon as people find out maybe this happens to you because you've got an interesting job as well as soon as people find out what you do they want to know everything they ask me things like what's the strangest thing people say and you know all kinds of questions

come out yeah so yeah sit next to me you'll be you'll be fine I know and I can also I mean I've only you know we met like about five minutes ago but I can already completely see why if I went to see you and I needed some help with something I would feel very comfortable opening up to you because you just have that way about you that I really feel like you know thank you I can see that you'd be a very reassuring warm presence so that's lovely and I think I think actually no people would be much more excited to talk to you because I think when I say I'm a singer it's a bit like you know you have to kind of probe with that to see but everybody has a relationship with sex true everybody and I suppose right first we'll start with you when did this become your day job so I actually ended up in this field fairly accidentally it was kind of one of those lucky

accidents um you know when you when you train to be a psychologist you do you know an undergraduate degree then a few years of working as an assistant psychologist then you do a three-year doctorate which is a bit like a medical doctorate where you rotate around specialties and in your final year you get to specialize in something uh you get to pick something you've not done before or something you're interested in I didn't really know so I picked adolescent eating disorders because I thought don't know anything about that so let's do that the person went off on mat leave they couldn't have me on that placement they were like oh at the 11th hour what do you think about sex and I was like sounds great sign me up thinking

this sounds fun and interesting and it's close to where I live. So that's all good. And I did a year long placement in sex. So sexual health, sexual problems, which is the same work I do now for the NHS. Although this was like almost 20 years ago, and I absolutely loved it. I thought, what is there not to love about this? It's political. It strikes at the very heart of things that we feel kind of shame and fear and embarrassment about and you know that's one of the real privileges of therapy actually is getting people to a place where they feel comfortable to talk about things that are difficult and there's not much more difficult to talk about than sex um it's about it kind of connects with marginalized groups so there's a you know in sexual health we

do a lot of work with HIV with different aspects of sexual health um with LGBT populations so and you get to work with individuals and couples across the whole lifespan so as a psychologist usually you have to narrow it down a bit like I only work with teenagers or I only work with older people I get to work with everybody and I absolutely loved it so so that was it I was sold from then on and I've been doing it now for like I say almost 20 years which makes me feel old um and experience it's experience thank you Sophie and I I do two different things so my my day job is split between managing sexual health um sexual problem services for the NHS which I do half the time and love because I love the NHS and then the rest of the time I have my own clinic which is called the Havelock Clinic which is a sexual problem service with doctors physiotherapists clinical psychologists

with doctors physiotherapists clinical psychologists based in London but I guess my real passion is is about getting ideas about sex to help people's sex lives outside of the therapy room because I'd quite like less people to need to come and see me in the first place and so I suppose the reason why I set up my Instagram account the reason why I've done the book and other things like the TED talk was about trying to get stuff that people need to know to stop them coming to therapy out into the mainstream and that's something I'm super passionate about yeah I can see that and that's how I kind of came to know about you myself is through your Instagram account and then reading your book and um so I know you've got another TED talk having you as well on the horizon in two weeks and I'm trying not to think about that too much. Two weeks tomorrow or the next day, yeah, something like that.

So it's quite reassuring to hear. You're completely fine to talk about all aspects of sex, but public speaking is still a bit of a thing. You know what? I both love it and then also curse the day I agreed to it at the same time because, you know, it's a big public arena at TED isn't it so yeah gotta get it right I know but also it's why do we say yes to things

that actually really scare you it's like this bizarre challenge you set yourself over and over again why why why sometimes you can't turn things down can you and this is one of those things I thought uh TED London women I can't turn that down yeah here we go no and it'll be great and you've done it before. And so when you talk about the messages you're keen to get out, you know, with me here now, what are the sort of key things you're really excited about getting outside the therapy room?

Well, I guess, I mean, there are so, so many. But I suppose, you know, thinking about some of the main misconceptions and thinking about the things that affect people's sex lives directly, one of my biggest passions is about sex in long-term relationships. I'm passionate about this because it's the number one reason people seek sex therapy. So people come to sex therapy mostly around differences in desire or differences in opinions about sex between them and a partner. That's the number one thing. And what's fascinating about that is that people often come to therapy thinking there's a problem with them

or a problem with their relationship. But really the problem is about how we see sex and how we see desire and how we look after our sex lives in society, if that makes sense. So that's one of my biggest passions and how we look after our sex lives in society, if that makes sense. Yeah. So that's one of my biggest passions, and that's obviously the focus of the book.

Yeah, so I suppose there's quite a lot to unravel with that, really, because as you say, you come at one point in your life, and also I suppose you can have a couple that are really good at communicating in all other aspects of their life, but actually articulating how you feel about sex, particularly in a long-term thing, because you might have to bring things up that maybe are as a sort of, a bit of a rut you've got into.

And I think in your book, you talk about a set menu and saying, it's really good to, you don't have to keep ordering the same thing all the time. Yes. And get into that pattern. Yes, especially if you're going to eat at the same restaurant for the rest of your life.

It's best not to stick with the same food as well. Yes. So, I mean, maybe we should dive into desire a little bit yeah because there's so much to say about this it's relevant to to what you were just saying I suppose we have a bit of an idea in our society that desire so feeling like sex out of the blue is something that just happens spontaneously if you love someone and we're kind of signed up to that idea that um there is such a thing as a sex drive so you should just feel like it randomly at various times and especially with someone you love and that's actually not true so we know that at the start of a relationship, so for the first kind of, you know, couple of months to a year, or maybe a tiny bit longer,

people do generally feel high levels of spontaneous desire. So they feel like it out of the blue. And then what tends to happen is that for women particularly, but not exclusively women, that starts to drop off after about a year, a year and a half. And feeling like it out of the blue is something that doesn't happen very often at all or ever for some women. And that isn't a problem with desire. So there's a lot of women, and I can guarantee there are people listening now who don't ever feel like sex and think that's a problem with them. But it isn't. It's just a way that desire works in long-term relationships,

which is that it tends to not be spontaneous anymore for many people. And it kind of needs to be triggered, which we'll come on to in a second. But because we've been socialised to this idea that we should just feel like it out of the blue, we feel a bit like it's of the blue um we feel a bit like it's our problem and it's quite hard to know how to fix it yeah because what do you do if you're just not feeling like it what you tend to do is a partner comes near you and goes oh it's been ages or tries to give you a kiss whatever and you're like no because i'm not feeling like it and so

you start to kind of back off from any type of physical intimacy or anything that you think might give them the wrong idea and of course that just makes it harder and harder for desire to be triggered there's nothing to trigger it yeah and then I know he's feeling great in that situation because the other person as well is thinking oh they're not into me anymore and yeah yeah all those things happening too and there's so many intricacies within that whole dynamic that we could go into you know there's the fact that well how is the partner initiating it and is that initiation actually something that you would respond to anyway or are they saying it's been ages since we've had a shag which you know isn't

really going to trigger desire for anyone so this is sexy there's so much to go into there but I think when it comes to desire what if I could change one thing and how people run their sex lives it would be for people to understand how desire works because you can actually have desire feature as much as you want in your relationship okay um just by understanding how it works and creating a relationship culture that will support it but in actual fact what happens is we do the opposite we we think of our sex lives as something which should just happen with no effort and we put all of our effort into the other things we want to be good like i don't know our fitness or our diet or our parenting skills or our work we work quite hard at those things don't we we kind of don't really expect to feel good about

our bodies if we don't look after our body true we're also good at being anecdotal with that you can speak to anybody about those oh I haven't been to the gym in ages or I go do this three times a week and all that you know whatever it is yes we can communicate that stuff we can yeah and you mentioned communication earlier, and I think it's a really important part of it. We don't do that with sex. We just kind of expect that without any effort or negotiation or investment that we can be with the same person for a long time

for those people that are monogamous and it'd be okay. And as you say, without being able to talk about it, that's a big challenge because how do you navigate the fact that you might see a drop in spontaneous desire and therefore need to negotiate how you're going to trigger it? How do you navigate your body changing,

you know, through life events, through having kids maybe, your body changing you know through life events through having kids maybe through i don't know physical health issues how do you navigate the fact that for all of us our interest in sex or the things we want to try sexually shift and kind of ebb and flow so without being able to talk about it you're kind of in a bit of a tricky place yeah so that's one of the reasons why we know from sex science that being able to talk about sex is probably the fundamental factor that can help you keep your sex life good over time and as you say we're not very used to that we we're not really socialized into talking about sex no and when you say, we're not very used to that. We're not really socialised into talking about sex. No, and when you say talking about it, do you mean with your partner

or do you mean even with your friends or anybody that you normally confide all the other stuff in? So talking about it with your partner, but what I'm interested in, I suppose, is when we look at how often we talk about it elsewhere, it kind of puts us at a disadvantage to talking with our partner because we're out of practice. Yeah.

And, you know, even if you think about the words you might need to use, like sometimes, especially for women, there aren't really any words to describe people's vulva or clitoris or vagina or whichever bits of their body they're talking about that they actually feel comfortable using because they're either really infantilizing like fufu or they're really kind of porny and it can be quite hard even to have the words and that's connected to

the fact we don't talk about it as a society um and i suppose a bit like you were saying earlier around exercise um you don't really get to see and learn from other people's relationship with sex because it's all so private. So one of the analogies I talk about in the book, because I use eating analogies for some reason all the time when I talk about sex. It's a safe space. It's a safe space. Appetite and hunger and all these things.

Yeah, exactly. And then feeling satisfied after. Good point, good point good point i must add that one it's a visceral thing isn't it when you're eating something anticipation yeah but when we think about food you know you you might learn quite a lot from the media um you know you see adverts you read magazines about eating but you also get to see what your family do. You get to talk about food with them. You get to learn from how they have a relationship with that thing and talk about it. And we just don't have that with sex because we're raised in a pretty much a sex negative culture in most parts

of the Western world, even worldwide. And what that means is that the only place we've got to learn is this idea that you shouldn't talk about it that it's a risky thing to do especially for women it's more likely to end up in something bad happening and there's something good happening um it's a bit shameful you should try and keep it private you probably should wait to do it for as long as possible all those negative messages are how we're raised yeah you can't talk about it it's a bit shameful, you should try and keep it private, you probably should wait to do it for as long as possible. All those negative messages are how we're raised. You can't talk about it, it's not okay. And the only way we can fill the gaps is with what we see on TV,

what we read about in magazines, perhaps what we see in porn, for people that watch porn. That is okay for eating because it's balanced out with everything else. You see a Burger King advert, you're like, oh my God, that looks delicious. But you also know it's maybe not that good for you. But with sex, you know, all you've got is what you see on TV. This is what sex is.

And so you pretty much see the same representation over and over again of sex is this kind of, you know know lust or passion that comes from nowhere that both people somehow magically feel at exactly the same time i mean that just doesn't happen in real life there's oh you know it's very difficult to have enough time in your week or month and both feel like exactly the same time that in itself is a challenge and then it happens in this way there's this set menu of a bit of kissing maybe you know a bit of touching and then it's penitent vaginal sex and then everyone orgasms at the same time in about two minutes after that and that's how we learn and we see by and large heterosexual sex as well we do we do we don't see much variety we don't see much queer

sex we don't see we don't see any representations of couples kind of going do you think we should have sex or like do the dishes and what are them going i don't know like both would be good like which will we regret more tomorrow and then and then into it, and then their arousal and passion and desire building. That's actually more of a realistic representation of sex in long-term relationships. But when you see that kind of sex on TV, it's always positioned as there's a bit of a problem for this couple's sex life,

because look, they're really having to work on desire. But it's actually just how desire works it needs a bit of nurturing so you said at the beginning of that that if there's a way to I'm trying to remember the old phrasing sort of have more of a culture of desire and how that might be rectified so what's a sort of good suggestions for that yes so I think first just knowing that desire will often need to be triggered and it's often not there to start off with. Thinking about the relationship context and the personal context within you that support that. So we all know there are times we feel more or less connected to our sexuality. and our relationship and how things are feeling between us might nurture or extinguish. So it's not just about what's happening within us, but also, you know, the whole picture. So thinking about those contexts is important. But knowing that desire can be triggered means all we really

need to do is create the context to trigger it. So there's two things here. One is I talk about something called sexual currency. So when I talk about sexual currency, I mean everything that we do with a partner that is about relating to them sexually that isn't a sexual act. So flirting, passionate kissing, like sex texts, a bit of a bum grab, a bit of a wink, you know, telling them they look hot today, being naked together, all of that is what I call sexual currency. Sexual currency is really high at the start of a relationship. And if you look at people who've just got together, you can almost just see it kind of oozing out of them, all of the eye gazing, all of the touching, all of the kissing, it's kind of annoying, but you can see it, can't you? Yeah. What happens is we're with someone a longer amount of time is that that kind

of, that way of relating to them gets watered down. And there are all these other ways that we start relating to them as co-parents, as flatmates. So the first one isn't quite sustainable. It's not, no. And you can't get much else done. You can't get much else done it's like being a little bit mad when you're in that phase and everyone would hate you because you'd be really annoying because at a dinner party you'd just be that couple that everyone would go for god's sake get real yeah so it's not sustainable but it gets watered down by all these other ways that we start to relate to each other you know the texts become like can you pick up bin bags rather than I can't wait to see you tonight you know all of that yeah so one of the things we need to do is to pay attention

to the culture of our relationship and see whether sexual currency has really been dampened and so questions I often ask couples in relation to this are um do you passionately kiss like outside of sex? You know, is that something that ever happens? It usually falls off the agenda in long-term relationships. And it's a very quick and easy way of increasing sexual currency is to bring that back with a kind of agreement and understanding that that's not about that going anywhere. It's not an initiation of sex. It's about feeling like a sexual couple. You know, can you talk about sex easily? Can you watch a sex scene on TV and say, you know, that bit was hot.

Do you think, you know, should we try that? Those types of things. What tends to happen in long-term relationships is that sexual currency falls and then people start to feel as though it's hard to initiate sex because you haven't said a sexual word to each other for like three weeks and it's hard to know how to initiate it but actually what we need is a culture of high sexual currency and not really worrying about how much sex we have because sexual currency is a little bit like a kind of scaffolding that helps you move from like

putting the dishes away into taking it further should you want to but it provides a very easy transition you know if you have those moments throughout the day where you're seeing each other as sexual people yeah um where you're feeling desired by the other person where you're seeing each other as sexual people yeah um where you're feeling desired by the other person where you're having a bit of a trigger for your desire you won't always be able to act on it because you know you've got to take the kids to school or you've got work things on your mind but you'll feel desired you'll feel connected sexually it makes it easier you know a couple of hours later to get back into that if one of one or both of you wants to take it, take it a bit further. So sexual currency is is really important.

And that's one of the key ways that people can really make a change and get their sex lives back on track. There are so many more, but I think that's that's one of the ones i think can make the most difference with the smallest yeah and i can see that it sort of shifts the emphasis as well because uh it stops it all being just about the act and makes it just sort of more part of how you interact with each other and seeing each other in 360 and it not being because if you're in the first stage you were talking about where someone's feeling that their desire's gone so suddenly it's a bit like, oh God, here they come

and it's going to be, they're going to want to have sex and I'm really not in the mood and how do I even broach that? But it kind of just takes them back to being two people where it's like, actually I just,

I'm really attracted to you and you look really lovely today or as you say, like a cheeky text or just something flirty yes and really easily fall by the wayside can't it in long term it really can and it's normal for it too so people shouldn't worry if that's what's happening for them but it's like with any culture it's in it's possible to change it just by making a very small change in how you do things you can

shift a culture um and what you were saying there about if you don't have a have that kind of sexual currency between you very often as soon as someone does say actually you look really great today or as soon as someone does approach you and kiss you in that way that's a bit more passionate than a peck on the lips when they go to work or whatever you think pressure you think they're expecting something now. And pressure is a massive desire killer. Yeah. So it's almost like you need the opposite.

You need lots of times where your kind of desire might be triggered or you may feel like you're being seen in a sexual way or you're seeing them in a sexual way without pressure for it to go anywhere, not the other way around. But you just made me think of something else then when you were saying about how important that can be which is that sometimes we think about um the reasons we have sex as being about kind of scratching this physical itch of this sex drive that we think is there like hunger so it needs kind of satiating but actually the reasons that all of us are motivated to have sex are usually more psychological or relational so for example we want to feel attractive or desired or we want

stress relief or we want to feel connected to that person in a different way than a co-parent or we want to feel our relationships good and in a different way than a co-parent, or we want to feel our relationship's good and strong, and we feel like if we're having sex, then it is. There's a bit of a myth there, although there kind of isn't. It is also quite important. So what's interesting about sexual currency, and I love when I get couples to do this in therapy because it completely changes everything

because what they say is actually I need sex less now we're doing this because the reason I'm motivated to have sex is because I want to know that she still finds me attractive I in my life want to feel an attractive person I want to feel desired it's important for all of us, isn't it? Yeah. And when she grabs me just before I leave for work and gives me a passionate kiss, I feel desired. And I feel our relationship is strong. And I go to work with that bit of a, what's the phrase? It's a kick in my step.

That's not the phrase. You know what I mean? Like a spring in my step. Spring in my step. Thank you. Mixed metaphors. And actually, that often meets quite a lot of our sexual needs so um so yeah it's about turning how we see things on their head I guess

understanding how desire works and then almost doing the opposite of what we think we should do yeah quite a bit fascinating I mean we're complicated bunch, aren't we? I can totally see why it's kind of endless. I love the fact that you're keen to sort of, you know, maybe reduce the number of people that need the therapy. But firstly, I think applaud anybody that goes actually to therapy, because I think probably for a lot of those, that's a massive deal, isn't it? Taking it out of the bedroom and sharing those details with someone and recognising there's a problem. They're already kind of setting themselves up quite well to be able to resolve them if they've left them you know they're open to that yeah absolutely also you are dealing here with the british you know we're not really known for i mean we're a pretty repressed nation and a little bit bizarre really

because it's not hard to find um you know, sex is well represented. It is. But not always in the way that's helpful. And, you know, you've spoken a lot in your book about all this, and it's fascinating. I was saying before we started recording about how I've been reading it on the tube sometimes, and I feel like I look like an academic, which is a very impressive achievement for a book that's, you know, fundamentally about sex lives.

But, you know, there's so much information there about the science and the politics behind how we're wired. And for all our oppression, there's also this massive survey that gets done in the UK first. That's right. Which gives you a massive resource for what's actually going on with people.

Yes. So the NatSAL survey is an incredible piece of sex research that happens every 10 years in the UK. And the data that comes out of that about the sex lives of the UK is fascinating and is also mirrored by lots of other sex research that happens in other parts of the Western world as well.

So it's not just us, but it's certainly trends that we see. you know you were saying about things that people bring to therapy and and you're right it's an incredible privilege to be part of somebody's journey or a couple's journey when they're bringing something that feels so personal it's also one of the reasons I love sex therapy is because things are usually very easy to resolve in a quick time frame and it's a real joy to see that change for something that's felt so difficult for a couple but often the things that people bring are things like we're not having sex enough and I am always so fascinated about how often people feel like they should be having sex.

Because as you say, sex is everywhere, but it's also nowhere. And you don't really get that information about what's normal. And people are really obsessed with how often they're having sex. And they'll say, you know, I feel like we should be having sex a couple of times a week. And I'm like, who has time to have sex? Some people do, right? And that's all good for them. But that's not what we know from sex research

about how often people in the UK are having sex. We know that it's much more likely to be something like three times a month. And if you're in the kind of 35 to 45 year old age bracket, it's more likely to be twice a month. But then saying that there's a third of people who haven't had sex at all in the last month. So it's much more common to not be having sex that regularly.

You know, I say all of this because it's good to reassure people if they're worried that they want to be having more sex. But also frequency is such a massive red herring and just something we shouldn't be focusing on at all because it's actually worse for your desire to be having regular sex that isn't good than it is to be having sex once a year that's everything.

What we should be focusing on is, is the sex we're having the type of sex that makes us want to come back for more? Because as humans, we're having the type of sex that makes us want to come back for more because you know as humans we're kind of rewarded when things are good we obviously want to do more of them and when they're not so good we want to do less of them and that happens with desire as well so having sex because someone else wants to do it more and feeling that it's not necessarily what you want to be doing but you're going along with it for someone else's needs, not getting the pleasure you want from it,

all of those things will deplete desire over time just by that process of kind of negative reinforcement. Yeah, it's just, you're right, it's like endlessly fascinating. And going back, when did people start to form their relationship with sex because I suppose initially people might think it's when you actually start being sexually active but presumably there's many many strands that have started well before that I love that question and um it's such an important question because I think we've had for a long idea this concept that you're kind of not a sexual person until you have sex for the first time. And, you know, I don't use the word virginity.

It's just not a useful word in our vocabulary. It just maintains an idea of one type of sex is more important than another. And you're kind of giving something away. And there's all kinds of problems with it. That's so true. I prefer to use sexual debut as an idea that you're kind of bursting onto the scene with excitement and vigour.

That sounds a lot more fun. It's a lot more fun, isn't it? Like losing your virginity, it's just so negative. It's a bit like walking through a big art museum and it's you for your sexual debut. I love that, surrounded by balloons. Exactly, yeah. But actually, our relationship with our sexuality

is there from when we're very very small you know children um you know we see them um being able to enjoy touch to their bodies it doesn't have to be it's not a negative thing we see them being inquisitive about their genitals we they ask questions about it um well it's kind of always there it's only that you know it comes to puberty for us to start kind of having that sexual motivation and sexual interest but i i like the idea of people thinking about our relationship with our sexuality starting much younger when we learn about bodies and when we learn about autonomy bodily autonomy and when we learn about things like pleasure and consent which i think all of us who are parents need to start talking about much earlier than we currently do because really

they're the foundations for good sex later on. That assertiveness and bodily autonomy, being able to say no and not just be polite. Because, you know, go and give Uncle Bob a hug because he's saying bye and the kid doesn't really want to give Uncle Bob a hug. That's a very early message that it's more important for you to be polite and feel uncomfortable in your own body

than it is for you to assert yourself. That's a fundamental message that is challenging when you start becoming sexually active, you know, that someone else's wants are more important than your own bodily comfort. Yeah, that's a big one, isn't it? It's a really big one. So, you know, that's part of our early learning about sex.

Obviously, kind of all the messages we give around consent around you know things like tickling or things like you know if someone says no those they're all early learnings too um but also from when we start talking about sex with with children and young people just putting across an idea that it isn't something that's shameful it's something that's fun it's something you can look forward, it's something that's fun, it's something you can look forward to, it's something you can enjoy. So I think our relationship with sex starts then.

And I think it's really good to move away from a definition of becoming sexual as being around this kind of old idea of virginity and actually thinking, you know, if everyone does this for themselves now, if they're listening, what are the kind of key idea of virginity and actually thinking you know if everyone does this for themselves now if they're listening what are the kind of key moments in your sexual development that should be celebrated so things like when you first had an orgasm alone or perhaps when you first had an orgasm with someone else or the first time you really felt completely into somebody sexually or the best sex of your life like if you plotted your sexual

development these are the important milestones on there not the first time that you had penis and vagina sex which may have not been that pleasurable or interesting for you um so yeah I think it's a lifelong journey and I think it doesn't just stop when we reach adulthood I think it's a lifelong journey. And I think it doesn't just stop when we reach adulthood. I think it's something we can kind of grow and evolve into. And really our relationship culture needs to be able to support that by allowing growth. And that's where the communication comes in. Yeah, and I think we are getting better.

I certainly feel like the the language that uh like teenagers have now is far better and more nuanced than it was when I was that age about about all the gray areas of consent and how you feel about things and be able to specify what works for you and be encouraged to be empowered that way I just don't feel like those were conversations we had when we were having our sex education no I certainly didn't um I was taught about abortions by a nun she she didn't seem very pro and that's the thing isn't it this this you know socializing young people into thinking that sex is basically something scary where something bad can happen either to your reputation an unexpected pregnancy sti you know this it's just all bad stuff so true actually what we need to be saying to young people

is sex is actually really great and you should enjoy it and it should feel life-affirming and yes there are things to be aware of and to you know make sure you guard against but once that's taken care of once you know about contraception once you know about safer sex whatever else it might be go and enjoy it and expect it to be pleasurable because we're not really teaching young, well, when we were younger, perhaps, we didn't really teach young people to expect pleasure from sex.

It wasn't talked about. The number of women that I work with who are only now in their 20s or 30s or sometimes 40s and 50s, learning about the clitoris as being, like, the primary source of sexual pleasure and orgasm for women. You know, even now, people don't know that. Yeah, there's still a lot of education to happen, isn't there?

Surprising. Yeah, and I suppose it's just that thing of, probably for a lot of people, they feel like their sex education was sort of formed when they were at that time in their life or adolescence or something and then maybe haven't really brought it forward since then things can kind of get crystallized can't they and your ways of thinking about things but i mean you're a very good example of how there's always room to to change your

relationship with something and if you've sort of alluded to the fact that your upbringing in the education from school and maybe the way your parents spoke about sex, I don't know, it was very different to the way you're raising your kids. That's a sign that you can reset things. Yes, you can. And it's okay to feel a little bit uncomfortable as well, you know, because we've all been socialised

into doing it differently. But if you're someone who wants to parent your kids differently in in this and i should say that all of the evidence says that the more sex education kids get the more likely they are to be um what we call sexually competent which is a funny way of saying it but when they have their sexual debut the more likely to feel in control to be able to use adequate contraception to not feel pressured into it. So there's a direct correlation

between good sex education and that. And interestingly, there's a direct correlation between the first sexual debuts that you had with somebody else and sexual problems later on. So we know that if we set up young people from the start to have good early sexual experiences, they'll have less sexual problems later on down the line

that they might end up coming to see me for. Yeah, that makes sense. We've got a bit of a way to go till we get to that. But if you're someone who wants that for your children, then it's okay also to feel a little bit uncomfortable yourself because you were raised differently. So, you know know making sure that your children know what the word vulva means and that you know vagina isn't a good word to describe

women's entire genitals that actually it's obviously just the um vaginal opening and the tube up to the cervix but the the vulva is important it's important to talk about pleasure and to not shy away from conversations about sex, to just see sex as just, yeah, something fun that people do. Yeah. And when you're older, you'll enjoy it too. Yeah, it's funny because when I first became a mum, you know, you do think about, you know,

head to their adult life and what you need to equip them with. And I surprised myself by thinking, I actually do, I do want my kids to have a really happy, healthy sex life. I want them to enjoy all that. I want them to feel good in themselves. I want the other person they're with to be having a nice time. So those things, I didn't think it would be quite as instinctive. I thought it might be something that I had to sort of think about a bit more.

But you just want people to feel good about themselves in that way. And so you now know you've got two kids who are nearly like jones boy snaps with my kids you've got a five-year-old and a nine-year-old a nine-year-old i've got a nine-year-old as well you've got two little boys yes um so you know what was happening in your life when you had your first were you working at the places you're working now oh yeah um what was happening yeah I mean I I was working in the NHS and sexual problems yes and it wasn't until I had my second that I started the Havelock Clinic and and started some other things like the Instagram and the book so I went on a

slightly different path um so yeah I've always been working in this field since I had them and it's you know it's a really interesting journey, isn't it? And I don't know if you connect with this, but having boys as well, you feel a real responsibility to make sure that you're raising boys that understand basic concepts around things like consent and understanding kind of gender equality when it comes to sex yeah but it's all the it's all the nuance there as well for me so you know they're very good at anatomy we've got sex books all over the house with models of the clitoris we've got

all kinds of things you know that are just there because of the work that me and my partner both do um so they're very relaxed um and sometimes it still catches me off guard so even though I do this for a job and I very much want that for them I can remember being in the changing rooms at the local swimming pool when I think my eldest was only a couple of years old like maybe three or four or something I can't remember and he shouted at the top of his voice he was like mummy is that your vulva really loud I was like yes he's like can I touch it no but I remember simultaneously thinking this is a great great thing because I don't think I knew that word until I was you know probably in my 20s until I started working in this field but also just mortified that he shouted that out in the swimming pool so you know, probably in my 20s, until I started working in this field. But also just mortified that he shouted that out in the swimming pool.

So, you know, we're not immune. No, I can sort of semi-match that with... I always wanted my kids to have a, you know, a very sort of frank, healthy relationship with, you know, to talk about sex and how babies are made. You know, age-appropriate, but, you know, I wanted them to feel good about it all. But I slightly jumped the gun with a book that I bought when my, my eldest must've been about three or four called Where Willie Went, which is all about a little sperm called Willie, which actually thinking over was actually quite confusing

that they called the sperm that, but anyway, and Willie was really good at, at swimming races. And Willie was really good at swimming races. And he lived in this world that was all like, had like a cafe and a cinema, all located safely in the testicles. But yeah, and then happily, Willie does win the race and a baby girl. It was born sometime later, but we were walking through the park

and he said, well, there'll be a fun fair in my bum for all the sperm when I'm big? I love that. Yeah. What a great image. And I think he was like, are you having a baby now? And I said, no, you never know. It might be some of daddy's sperm in there.

I was thinking, oh, maybe I've kind of run before I can walk with this stuff. I love that. I love that. It's great. It's really great. But, you know, knowledge is such a powerful thing and it's so good for them to be able to do that. But I suppose as well it's going to be interesting for you because a lot of other households are not just going to be dealing with that in the same way.

So if they have play dates and stuff, do they kind of, are the kids curious? I suppose they don't really think they're still a bit little aren't they yeah i mean i you know they they they're quite happy to be vocal with their friends about things sometimes we're like oh i hope that goes down okay when they tell people facts about various things all age appropriate but yeah i mean i'm predominantly concerned about them and want them to go into their teens understanding enough so that they can have a critical eye on the things that they will inevitably get exposed to. and in schools see porn at a very young age like mainstream free porn which is obviously you know porn is not the enemy by any stretch um but a lot of the mainstream of free porn can be quite misogynistic and can be quite unethical in the way it's produced um that i am not prepared for them to have that as their sex education i want them to see that and go that's not what sex is that's just a visual representation.

That's people acting something in a particular way. And I think that's the danger. If we don't provide good enough sex education at home, they will see that at some point, and they'll think that's what sex is in the absence of any other conversation about it. So what is a good way of having good sex education in the home then as they're growing up?

So I think just those kind of constant consistent ongoing conversations about the key aspects so pleasure autonomy um consent uh bodies labeling body parts and just what they witness between us in terms of how we talk about it how we react when it comes on tv how they see us interacting with our partner for example um what books are lying around how we talk about sex as they get a bit older not having anything off limits and i think and this is a case with social media generally i think just you know there's there's quite strong evidence now that raising especially thinking about early teens and later teens raising them with a really good sense of media literacy which also extends to porn literacy and social media literacy so what you see is not reality and this let's talk

about this film like like um you know the all the driving films that you see or like james bond whatever it is great entertainment but like if that happened in real life you know yeah would they really survive all of these different disasters that keep happening and it's the same with porn trying to raise them to have a critical eye and say okay you know this is just a form of entertainment but that person actually is acting that person is stopping and starting so they can maintain an erection for longer and taking Viagra that person doesn't actually look as happy with the scenario as they should um all of us you're sort of watching the porn with no no we definitely don't do that. I'm just trying to imagine having any of these chats with my 13-year-old and I know the face he's pulling.

It's a kind of... He might not want to have those chats. There's some really good websites and resources out there as well. There's a really good site for young people called Bish, bish.uk, I think it is um which is specially for young people kind of over 14 um and the idea is that it's got everything you need to know about sex about porn about bodies about consent about what makes a good relationship okay there's some great books out there as well um and there's lots of stuff and i can put it in the notes that's a great idea

i'll do that and some's a good resource for parents. But I think if we, you know, we don't have to talk with them about, let's definitely not watch porn together. Let's just be really clear about that. That is not good. Not okay. But if we raise them... I'll just look in their therapy session now. I should like for like 15 years time.

Do that, do that. But if we've already raised them with a bit of a critical eye and if they know enough about sex to know that that's not what sex is we've already raised them with a bit of a critical eye and if they know enough about sex to know that that's not what sex is they'll watch it with that lens they'll see it of course they will but they'll go oh she doesn't really look like she's enjoying that or this is showing a particular type of sex that i'm not sure all people will want it's tricky isn't it because that's i think that happens and you know you're right you have to remember as a parent that you don't have to be all things to all people you're one voice but there's also support

out there from lots of areas so yeah trying to walk alongside them with all of that stuff is really good and i think fundamentally just being for them to know that you're always a place they can come and talk yes and that you won't go oh my gosh you've seen porn that's terrible i never want you to watch that again that actually want to say you know there's loads of stuff on the internet let's talk about it like some of it is really good and might make you feel good some of it you may see and it might not make you feel good but I'll never be angry with you you can always come to me yeah and that's lovely for everything really isn't it I think for all the stuff we have to navigate I mean I had quite a early introduction to that bit really with with one of mine where

he and a friend had been looking up I think he'd googled something like hot girl boobs but I think he was either nine or ten like little and um so firstly it's quite alarming how quickly that moves away from just boobs yes um even with uh you know something on your control yeah but secondly um it meant that he'd seen lots and lots of of naked boobs and i was talking to him about it and it was quite tricky because i was trying to say to him that just because you've seen that lady's breasts doesn't mean that every woman you know has their breasts on the internet if you know what search for and also that you're now allowed to see that from anybody yes it was really tricky actually because I thought that was my first thing of trying to

educate what what porn is about really yeah sounds like you managed it really well well I'm raised by my mum is a real communicator sometimes a little bit too much which is why when you were saying about that you know aspects of the conversation I think keeping open is really important but I know that sometimes my mum would say things to me that I found were actually further ahead than I was yeah ready for and that that used to freak me out a little bit too yes and I'm trying to be better at that myself it's hard actually to navigate that because you think I want to have you armed with it and oh I've seen that you've you know you've uh this is in your world or you've seen that and actually you can you can adult a situation that they actually haven't taken picked up on all those nuances of yet yeah or maybe they

have so you have to sort of just leave the door open and say um what what did you think about that was there anything you want to ask me about what you just saw yeah because they might just go oh no fine thing I didn't notice and you know you and it's okay that you're curious about that is there anything you want to ask me about it exactly and you can always ask me about these things but you you're right, sometimes, you know, I think we forget sometimes as adults that kids often, they're often quite happy with a basic explanation of something and they don't ask,

they ask more when they need to ask more. Yeah. And they just need to know they can ask more. Yeah. And I remember when my eldest asked me something about what sex meant, because obviously she's the word written a lot around our house.

Here's it a lot in phone calls and stuff. And I said, it's just a fun thing that adults do. And when you're older, you'll enjoy it too. It's something you do with your body. And he didn't ask anything else. And I was prepared to go into, you know, it can be all these different things and blah, blah, blah. But actually that was kind of all he wanted to know

as a basic definition of the word at that stage. Yeah, and I guess, I know, it sounds like we're both people that like to talk to our children about all things. Yes. And sometimes you get a bit overexcited, I think, with those topics and think, oh, I've been waiting for this. Right, let's talk about it. And they're thinking, oh, my God, please stop.

Literally bored sideways. And I've yeah literally bored sideways and i've i've stopped listening ages ago and i've glazed over um what advice do you give people whose children might have walked in on them when they're having sex like for the parents how do you handle that well i guess it's kind of there's a couple of things there, isn't there? There's a background kind of issue of how do we do privacy as a family, which is actually quite useful to build in. So the idea is that people want privacy for different things and that we might respect that and think about knocking. But obviously sometimes kids are too young

and they won't necessarily think about that. I think it's really okay to be like oh you know mummy and daddy or mummy and mummy or whoever else um we're just having a nice time together depends on how old the kid is you know yeah and i think i mean actually luckily touch wouldn't like miraculously i haven't found myself in that situation which which I think with so many children, you probably would. The hat on the door seems to work now. The big do not disturb neon sign. I think the main thing is to not freak out, to not worry that we've somehow damaged them,

to not see sex as a negative thing. I work with a lot of adults who, it's important to remember that we learn about good sexual relationships from the people around us, including our parents. A strong sexual relationship is often really good for relationship satisfaction. And it's often something that people bring to therapy and they say, my parents obviously had a good sexual connection. they say my parents obviously had a good sexual connection and they somehow learned that without without obviously knowing their parents were having sex or hearing about it they picked up on that from something that their parents were doing or saying to each other perhaps sexual currency and they've learned that that's something that they also wish for their own relationships and then I work with other people who say you know I think my parents possibly hated each other in

that way and they were very cold and there was no physical affection and that can make it hard for people to demonstrate their own physical affection so I think one of the things we need to reflect on as parents is what do we want our kids to learn about how to be in a relationship when they're older with regards to physical affection sexual affection all of that and therefore it's okay for them to see that I don't mean we want them to walk in but you know inevitably that might happen it might be awkward for all involved and you might need to explain there was nothing like violent going on because little kids can get a bit oh what was that but essentially what they're learning is there is another part to your relationship that is important and sacred and passionate and fun

other than you as parents which is not a bad lesson to learn yeah it's true and do you ever have people come to you women after they've had a baby and they're sort of struggling with their relationship with their body because it's such a big thing? In fact, I would say not just women, but it does affect women more, but of all ages. So kind of concerns about body image are really the number one kind of distraction for women

around being able to enjoy sex sex being able to let go and enjoy sex and you know like i said it's not just women and we see this increasingly in men as well but particularly for women um thoughts about you know this comes from objectification theory which is the idea that we're socialized to kind of look look at ourselves through the male gaze so to be stood there naked imagining what another person is thinking of you naked and we know that women experience this more than men um and that comes across in sex all the time so what does my belly look like from this angle is anything wobbling you know what do my genitals look like up close um is anything sagging you know all of these things have i shaved my legs lots of these thoughts go around for women and of course that's

heightened at key points in our life so even in pregnancy for some people oh yeah it can be it can be a time where you finally let go of a worry about what your belly looks like and it can be a time when you feel deeply self-conscious about that and post-birth but there's also other key points I guess like menopause where sometimes that can happen and bodily focus kind of comes in a bit more it's it's a bit it's a it's a little bit more challenging for all of us to to work with that because we're kind of constantly bombarded with it um in our lives it's how we've learned you know we've got ideas about how bodies should look but one of the things i really encourage people to do is to make sure that they diversify their kind of social media

feed particularly to see representation of different bodies. Because I think it's very easy, isn't it? Just to see a particular aesthetic. Definitely. And all that does is kind of teach us that that's what we should be aspiring to. So diversification of those things and really trying to take a bit more of a kind of critical or political eye

on our own thoughts and going, is this actually what I believe um or is this just a kind of instinctive thought that I need to ignore and let it drift away yeah and then the last thing that we know works is um and it's fascinating actually how much this works to improve our sex lives across the board. But we've now realized that attention is a really crucial part of our sexual response. So where our attention is makes a difference to how turned on we get, how likely we are to orgasm, our desire, everything really, how much sensation we feel. And so when our attention is diverted to things like, what do my thighs look like? That limits

our sexual pleasure or chances of orgasm or whatever it might be so if we work on our attention and we do that through things like mindfulness so fascinating sex research about how people who practice mindfulness daily for six to eight weeks see a difference in sexual response so not even anything to do with sex just getting good at moving your attention because those thoughts will pop up because we're socialized to think that thin is best and kind of uh you know kind of white eurocentric ideals of bodies all of those things which we shouldn't be aspiring to but we've been socialized into so those thoughts pop up and really what we need to do is to try not to follow them.

Yeah. That's quite hard, but mindfulness can really help. Well, I should imagine letting go of, you know, you say about attention, that seems pretty crucial, really, because sometimes being in the mood, as it were, would start from hours before you might find that you're, that every tension, all the thoughts that go through your mind, everything, you've got to be able to just focus on the here and now. So there's a sort of, once you've probably got in the right headspace for it, there must be like a mindfulness that comes with the very act of it anyway.

Yeah, you're right. Just being in the here and now. There's some really interesting things that happen in our brain when we get turned on, which is that our attention becomes kind of single-minded so like single tracked we get much more focused and that's really good if your attention is focused on what's happening sexually because we know that great sex is about losing yourself in the moment that's kind of the definition of good sex that you you're almost, you're not thinking, you're just doing, yeah. But it's not good if that single-mindedness

comes about because you're aroused, but the attention is focused on, you know, what if I get pregnant? What if I don't get pregnant? Whatever it is that you're worried about. So yeah, attention is, it's a super interesting part of sex research. And what's great is it's something that we can all work with and ourselves.

Mindfulness is so good for all aspects of our kind of mental well-being. But actually, it's great for sex. Yeah, I can imagine that. As I said, it's like the sort of, yeah, just being able to focus on that one thing and let go of everything else. I mean, that's something we're being much better encouraged to do just generally, isn't it? Stop the kind of mind war. I suppose it's to do with the way we access information and the pace of life and everything.

It's just so heightened at the moment. You can fill all your waking minutes with something if you want to. And we've sort of lost the art of even being bored really I totally agree and I um you know one of the bits of research I did for the book when it was the bit about attention was around smartphone usage and apparently in the UK we use our smartphones for like three hours a day um and every 12 minutes I mean I think I check mine more often than that but something like every 12 minutes and it does disrupt how able we are to be in the moment. It's good for us to practice that. But there's a really interesting kind of political feminist backdrop to this as well, I think, which is that when I'm working with heterosexual couples, particularly,

you know, what you were saying about having to clear your mind of everything. you know what you were saying about having to clear your mind of everything we can't forget that that often in heterosexual relationships women carry the kind of mental load of household and family admin and that that in itself is distracting and so quite often women will say to me i i want to get in a headspace where i can think about being sexual but there's packed lunches to make there's clothes that need putting away there's like a school trip that I don't know if I signed the consent form for the car needs servicing and that mental load actually is a it's more of a societal and gender politics issue which affects our sex lives and it isn't really enough for partners to say oh you just tell me what needs to do to be done and i'll do it because you're still the boss of

the house and being the boss carries with it a rate you know a whole suitcase full of jobs doesn't it that you can't easily forget so you, you know, I also, you know, encourage people to think about the role of those things in their life as well, because all of that affects your attention, affects your desire, affects your ability to be interested in creating a situation where desire might be triggered. And then when you're raising kids,

where you want them to think about that dynamic, assuming they're in a sort of scenario, like a sort of heteronormative dynamic, I guess. Yeah. Then you're thinking, as their mum, you're doing all those jobs and then thinking, well, I don't want them to think that I just do all those jobs. At the same time, I have got to do all those jobs. Vicious circle. Don't want them to see it but I am doing everything. Or at least,

you know, I will be, you know, capable. Like, Richard sometimes jokes, he's like, you're making it

so they're not going to find, they're going to be looking for this version of you that they might date that's like, sort of cross loads of stuff. And I'm like, yeah,

but then you have, I'm really open with them when I'm like struggling or I've forgotten things or the bits that haven't got done. But it's interesting all that, isn't it? That pressure you put on yourself. And I think that mental load, I was doing lots of nodding. And I think it's just, I sort of surprised myself

by finding myself in a more traditional setup than I thought I would as quite a sort of forward-thinking person but I guess those societal messages take a little while to shrug off yeah and I think that you know one of the things I always really encourage people to do when they're thinking about the impact of all of this on their sex life is not necessarily to feel as though they need to make any changes here so it would be really normal for me to see someone someone um it's usually women so we know that a third of women in the uk are concerned about their interest in sex so that is massive wow that's like a third of women of all ages are concerned that they're not interested in sex enough that's from nat cell. So if you just think about that, that's huge.

That is. So, you know, someone comes in and they say to me, I never feel like sex, there's something wrong with me. It's often quite a lot of backpedaling to, well, actually your desire is quite normal and this is why. And let's look at all the contexts which influence it. Everything from relationship dynamics to how you feel about yourself to your sexual history and how you learned about sex, to the culture in your

relationship, to other factors around how women are socialized. Sometimes people get to a position where they're like, okay, so I have got all these other things on my plate like raising young kids like work like whatever else I'm trying to do in my life and at the current state of play I don't have the time to prioritize sex and that's okay and sometimes that it is okay it's about learning that there isn't a problem um and you know sometimes that needs negotiating with a partner but sometimes the best position can be just knowing that you're not broken yeah and then you can decide you know I've got all this stuff to do have I really got time to prioritize like making time for sex right now or can it just take a back seat for a bit yeah that's true and I think I mean from listening

to you and you know if you've if you're someone that hasn't maybe been good at being communicative with your kids, and let's say they're teenagers, are there ways to still rectify those things, do you think? Can you still kind of reset and change the dynamic of that communication in the family? We can always, always reset. We can always shift a culture,

and we can always do things in a kind of very gradual way that then, over the long term, brings us in a a different place and we can put some resources and things in there in the notes I guess yeah episode for people to look at but also for people in their own sex lives you know it's never too late to be having the type of sex that you really want to be having and I work with lots of couples who've been together decades and not been having the sex they want for decades and can turn that around. So for people that are listening that are thinking, oh, that ship has sailed, we've really got out of the habit,

it's really got awkward, we really, I don't talk about it, you know, all of that, it can really change. And the first step to that, I think, is about learning more about it from the science, not from media. Yeah, that's very true. Yeah yeah hooray for science again indeed and when it comes to your parenthood I mean do you feel like you're the sort of mother you thought you would be is it oh gosh did you always want to be a mum oh I did yes um I don't know I think I'm probably not alone in the fact that I often feel like I'm not doing everything well enough. So that constant, I should be doing more of this work, that work, I should be spending more time with

the kids, I should be doing this with them. I think that's a really common feeling. I guess motherhood is constantly surprising, isn't it? And that I think I probably expected, I mean, I'm quite patient but you know I'm not 100% patient you have to grow extra patience yeah you do um you know they can really push your buttons can't they and I don't know if I expected that and especially when you recognize traits and you're like oh my word this is like meeting me with this yeah oh gosh yeah my eldest is quite similar to me in some ways and it really holds a mirror up doesn't it you're like oh you're actually quite stubborn oh yes where'd you get that from

yeah um so yeah i think there are things that um there are always things i wish i was doing more of and there are always times i wish i was more patient um but i guess no one really prepares you for that journey um and no one really prepares you for the good bits either in terms of how good the good bits are. That's true. And just seeing them develop as people is wonderful, isn't it? I think as a psychologist, I had an idea that it was probably more about nurture than nature

because obviously psychologists are all about nurture. And yes, I can clearly see the nurture, but I also am fascinated by how different they are and how much of it is about nature that fascinates me yeah me too actually I think I think that's endlessly fascinating there's just this kernel of them that's just them from the get-go which is and you must be really excited about the next stage when they get to double figures and excited slash nervous it's almost like the proof will be in the pudding won't it whether you know everything we've tried to do

with them will support them or whether they'll just have a disastrous first few sexual experiences and I'll say oh no I did it all wrong but I guess that's parenthood isn't it totally it's parenthood and also it's not about the times when things don't go as planned. It's about how you deal with that, isn't it? Absolutely. And I picture you and your wife and your kids and all of their mates around the table all exchanging stories. Their friends are going to find you incredible. They're going to be like, great, your mum's home.

I've got something I want to talk to her about. Basically Jean Milburn from sex education. There you go. There you go. I think they're very lucky to have that. They might be mortified. We'll see. You know what?

That's an unexpected pleasure sometimes. Let's talk about sex, baby. Let's talk about you. I've got my pyjamas on because i was feeling a bit snoogly is that okay um i really enjoyed talking to karen and now i'm a little distracted i'm not gonna lie i want to thank karen for giving me her time and her expertise. I think she spoke so much sense about sex. Oh, yeah. But now I am in a slightly different headspace, if I'm honest.

It's now Friday night. It's just before I go away on tour. I leave tomorrow evening after another day of rehearsals. So I'm having a little play with Mickey. And I've got my pyjamas on because I just tried on all play with Mickey. And I've got my pyjamas on because I just tried on all my tour outfits and then I put my pyjamas on afterwards. And Mickey, look at all these lovely toys we've got.

What have we got? Yeah. There's no one to see, darling. I'm just recording your voice. Well, is no one there? That's right. You can't see anything. Look, my phone just looks dark.

And that's just recording some sound. Yeah. Do you want recording some sound. Yeah. Do you want to say hello? Yeah. Say hello. Hello. Yeah, Mickey just got some beautiful Wizard of Oz toys, didn't you, Mickey? We're playing with Lion and Tiger.

Sorry, not Lion and Tiger. Lion and Dorothy. Scarecrow, Tin Man and man and wicked witch she's so evil and he has a motorbike a motorbike yeah let's put her on the motorbike baby yeah i know oh i'm gonna miss these guys when i go away who me i'm gonna miss you where i have to go to work. Where to go? I'm going to, I've got a gig in Holmforth on Sunday. Yeah. And then I go to Birmingham, Bexhill and Bath. And then I come home.

Um, and then what will I say, what will I say to you? What will you say to me? Yeah. You'll say, hi mum, good to have you back. And then what will you say to me? Yeah. You'll say, hi, Mum. Good to have you back. And then will I say again? Will you say, welcome home, Mummy? And then?

And then, I don't know. What do you want to say to me? Um, I love you. Oh, I love you. I want to say I love you. I want to say I love you. Come back to say I love you. Come back.

Oh, Mickey, I will come back. No, I want to say I love you and cuddle you to come back. Okay, Mickey. Okay. Oh, well. On that note, I'll see you next week from the road. All right. Lots of love

to all of you listening and big big cuddles to Mick Mox who's playing with me right now love you Mickey bye

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