Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 62: Claire Richards

Episode Date: May 2, 2022

Claire Richards - or Claire from Steps as most of us know her - left school at 17 and within 2 months had signed a record deal. So began a hugely successful pop career, with Steps still at the top of their game in this, their 25th anniversary year. They recently finished an arena tour - where I was their support act and experienced for myself what incredible fans they have - almost like a giant, joyful family!We talked about pre-performance nerves, how Claire manages to compartmentalise her work and homelife, and about how working makes her feel she comes home as a better mum to children Charlie and Daisy. We also talked about Claire's relationship with food and how she never wants her children to go through that. Plus we laughed about the ridiculousness of our jobs, with Claire winning on this occasion as she recently had to die on stage every night in War of the Worlds, in front of her husband played by Duncan from Blue dressed as a vicar! Beat that!! Spinning Plates Podcast is Produced by Claire JonesPost-production / engineered and edited by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hey. This is going to be one of those risky intros.

This isn't going to work very well. But I've left it really late. It's Sunday. So it's going to happen. Yes, Mickey? Of course I can. Mickey likes being twisted up in the swing at the moment. He's discovered the joys of that. So that's what we're doing now. So I'm moving other bits of apparatus out of the way

so it's not quite as dangerous as it might be. Oh, that's not going to work, Mickey. All right, all right. My three-year-old has turned into my tiny boss man. I know, Mickey. I know I haven't done that bit. Anyway, how are you? What's been going on with you? I'm about to just complete my final birthday party of April. This is number four.

And I've had the same happy birthday balloons up since the first one, which was Richard's way back on the 6th, and mine on the 10th. Sonny was 18 last Saturday on the 23rd, and Ray was 10 on Monday the 25th, so we just had a sleepover last night with an extra seven kids around. They're all leaving at the moment,

and I'm quite exhausted, actually actually but in a happy way because it all went well and actually sunny and ray haven't had birthday parties for two years so it's nice to get back to doing all that for them because you know it's a big deal when you're 10 anyway um as i speak to you yeah i'm in the garden. It's good. All right, Mickey. And I had a really lovely chat this week with Claire from Steps. So I've been trying to sort out having Claire on the podcast since probably something like September last year. Before the tour, I know that much. And then it kept getting pushed back and pushed back because this might make you

laugh I didn't actually meet Claire on the steps tour at all I've met her previously but on the steps tour where I supported them for all of the dates I think it was 15 or 16 dates I didn't get to chat to any of steps because they were being so um what's the word strenuous and you know quite rightly they were just trying to protect themselves against getting covid while they were on the tour so it meant that i didn't see them i didn't see them at all and claire and i spoke about that when we finally met but it made me chuckle a little bit and maybe you'll appreciate this that when i was putting in my notes i've got like my notes where i put all my guests all right mickey all my guests hold on ray hold on two minutes two minutes all my guests for the podcast so Ray. Hold on. Two minutes. Two minutes.

All my guests for the podcast. So I put, hold on. I put next to their name, like, all the series where I might speak to them. So first it said next to Claire, five. And then it said six. And then it said seven. And then when I saw it in my notes, it said Claire Richards, five, six, seven, eight. My boot scootin' baby is drivin' me crazy. Yes, it made me chuckle.

Anyway, it was a lovely chat with Claire. And when we went around to her house, it was so nice to sit with her, have a cup of tea, talk about lots of stuff. She's warm. She's smart. She's got some real parallels with, you know, times in her life when significant things happen

with her singing, which was really nice to compare notes. And we had a chuckle about things. And I'm really glad I managed to get our chat recorded for you. And I'm going to listen to it again while I also twist my three-year-old on a swing and then let him go wildly round in a circle at the end of it. All right, see you on the other side. Bye-bye. Thank you very much for having us over. Thank you. And it's actually really nice to see you up close because... I know. Because we did a tour together.

A whole tour. A whole tour. A really happy tour, but I didn't really see much of you except from the crowd point of view because you guys were being so careful. We were trying to be careful. It kind of didn't really work in the end, did it? But yeah, it was a weird one, that.

It was a really weird tour. It was not the most enjoyable from our point of view in terms of just kind of trying to keep it on the road and I think um in hindsight if I'd have known what it was going to be like probably would have postponed it another year or so maybe because we're so used to touring in a certain way that is pretty it's joyful most of the time it's it's you know we've never it was just gave a whole extra level of worry to the whole thing yeah i totally hear you with that it makes you understand actually how much touring is not just the gigs no it really isn't it's like actually that part on

on the stage that two hours is it's the key part obviously but it's not really. I think touring is a completely whole different thing to that moment that you see on stage. That's the payoff and that's the reason why we're all there. But actually, there is so much more to it and we just missed that completely. Yeah, so is it right you were like two weeks you were isolating before the tour even started? Is that right?

Well, no, we rehearsed. So in rehearsals, we would be really, really careful, but it's difficult to kind of keep everybody in one place. And then when we got to production rehearsals, that was when the bubble kind of started, which was just over a week before the actual tour started. Okay. Which seemed to be enough.

We were testing every day. We were just, we didn't leave our hotel rooms I mean it was just didn't go to a restaurant a bar a gym nothing I took a suitcase full of gym stuff and we kind of made our own little gym and it was crazy really and we I don't know we tried really hard but yeah I guess there's one thing to see friends and family after the gigs and that kind of thing that was hard that was really hard actually and no especially for I mean by the time we'd got to London it was nearly over so we'd kind of and we knew because Lee Fay had got Covid and been away for that week or so. Then Lee got it on the first. He tested on the Saturday, so the second O2.

So Faye came back, he left. And we knew we were nearly done. So we did see family at London. But Faye's from Newcastle, or she lives in Newcastle. And all her family came to see the show and she couldn't see them afterwards. It was just, she was ten minutes from her house. It was a bit kind of... Yeah, that's tough.

It was a bit heartbreaking. And that's, again, sharing all of that with your family and your kids and stuff, that's the joy of it. Yeah, I know. And we just didn't, we just couldn't. It was very relieved to get home. I know. Well, I did really feel for you.

I mean, by the way, the shows were really spectacular, and your fans are amazing. It was like walking really feel for you. I mean, by the way, the shows were really spectacular. And your fans are amazing. It was like walking into a big family. Yeah. Because they were really, I mean, I watched the first gig, like, all the way through. Because I just, when I'm supporting, I sometimes think, I'll eke it out because I'm going to get a chance to see this a lot. Yeah.

And the first night, I just found myself like, oh, no, I'm sticking around. And there was such a great atmosphere. And it was really like really like yeah like being part of this big joyful family yeah um so on that side of it you know it was wonderful but I did really feel for you guys but that was also what was going on for everybody I mean tours were being pulled left right and center because you know it's so difficult to keep a tour going straight forward when you're every if one person gets it that's we have to yeah I mean we were one of the first out I think really rena tours anyway yeah so it was quite I think it was just us and JLS really yeah pop wise yeah so it was quite it was a big risk and we knew that it was going to be a risk and even up until the last minute we were still thinking is this the right

thing to do should we be doing this but um I think we'd waited such a long time to get it out and get it get it on the road that we just wanted to do it but yeah it was a learning experience for sure I think we're all having those all the time looking back about how things were done and what we did and and now at least we're able to properly. So what's this year looking like for everybody? Well, it's our 25th anniversary this year. That's impressive. I can't believe it's been 25 years. It actually makes me feel a bit sick.

It's only a quarter of a century. I know, it's more than half my life. God, it's crazy. It doesn't feel like that long at all. I know we had a bit of a gap in between. We weren't really together, but we've always been steps. We've always been a band. So even when we weren't a band,

I think our hearts have always been there. So yeah, 25 years. So we're doing lots of festivals and lots of shows this summer, which is going to be really nice. And a couple of other things that haven't been announced yet, but, um, cool. Yeah, it's fun. And you've just come back from war of the worlds as well. How was that? Do you know what? That was, um, something I never thought I would do. And, and I think the fact that it was arena tour really helped but it was brilliant, I absolutely loved it and the experience from Steps in November and that

touring, same kind of situation, you know, tour bus it was completely different and the joy was definitely in that obviously we had a bit of the freedom back so we could go out for dinner and everybody else in the cast was lovely and I did a bit of acting and yeah it was all kind of I was terrified to start off with but by the end of it I absolutely loved it well that's really special and did you find because I've just come

back from my first tour in in three years I've done the old gigs and stuff but and I I hadn't really sort of taken into account quite how much of me I'd put on pause that I really get out of my work. And as you say, not just the gigs, the whole camaraderie, the atmosphere. Yeah. Just that whole atmosphere that you get when you go on those tours and it's really special. I mean, do you feel like there was a bit of you like you paused a little bit? Absolutely. paused a little bit absolutely I did I definitely felt like when we came back from the step store in November I just didn't feel myself at all and it's and even between January and kind of

starting it I was getting really anxious about doing more of the world and thinking what have I done I've made a massive mistake I can't leave my house I was felt very very anxious about the whole thing but actually doing it and pushing myself to do something first of all that terrified the life out of me but also to be back out into a situation which was fun and was work how you remember it I've come back from there feeling like a completely different person much more motivated I've been you but I think I've been a much better wife and and parent since I've been back as well which is and and I don't know if it was the situation of the step store just being as strange as it was that it kind of knocked

the wind out of me a little bit I think yeah so to actually have that experience and go and and yeah so to actually have that experience and go and and be in an incredible show because even if you don't know it and a lot of my friends and family came to see it and it's not really their cup of tea and even came away going do you know what I probably would never have watched that if you weren't in it but it was incredible and it's it is a massive spectacular show and to be part of something that Jeff has been so passionate about for such a long time yeah and still is it's quite it's really inspiring and it definitely inspired me I kind of came away from that thinking right what am I going to do now what can I do yeah yeah and that's Jeff Wayne isn't it I've actually seen the show myself years ago my friend Sinead Quinn I think she was doing the same role that you were doing. And I was quite, because Richard, my husband, had grown up on War of the Worlds. So he knew it inside out. But for me, I sort of met it, and I think I must have been then maybe like, I don't know, early 30s or something. And I was like, whoa, this is really quite out there, these sort of Victorian times, and then these aliens come,

and the music's very big and bold, and it's quite proggy in parts, and I really enjoyed it, actually. It's really textured and quite wacky and fun. It is a bit. You do kind of think, I don't know what I'm watching, but it's great. And if you think about the original story, HG Wells wrote it in the 1800s,

it's quite incredible really yeah i think that he was writing about aliens and martians invading the earth and but it's actually really relevant yeah to today if you think about the story a lot of what they he says and the narrator says it's really really quite relevant to what's going on in the world today so it was it's very interesting but it is um but the music is incredible we've got like 36 piece string section on stage and a full band and which is not something I've ever really experienced before you know I've been singing my whole life but never really with live musicians most of the time yeah so it was um yeah it was a great experience I'm glad I did it yeah just going

back to what you said about this anxiety before is that something that you think you've always said yes to things and put things in your diary with a kind of I don't really I know I'll probably enjoy about it the challenge of it but at the moment yeah not really I don't really know why I said yes to that yeah absolutely everything I ever I ever do. I feel like that myself. Yes. I do. I don't know what it is. In my head, when I say yes to things, I said yes to War of the Worlds over a year before we started it.

And it was all during lockdown. I had a meeting on Zoom and it was great. That's going to be brilliant. And as the weeks got closer, I just thought, what have I done? And I do that all the time. I did it when I did my solo album I've wanted to do it my whole life and as I was out there doing it and performing on my own I was every single time I was in a mess because I just and guaranteed every single time afterwards I go oh that was great I want to do it. And then the next thing comes along and I kind of spoil everything for myself,

if that makes... I did... I supported Celine in Hyde Park. Oh, wow. Your brother was my drummer. Oh, cool. And I was so excited about it because it's incredible,

but the whole day leading up to it, I couldn't even speak to anyone I couldn't speak to anyone my family my mum tried to hug me but I was like you just need to leave me alone and was really spoiled that build-up for myself but the minute I did it and the minute I came off I was so relieved and I'd had such a great time that I could have done it again but it's I don't that's I don't know if that's just my process and the way I have to... Yeah, I don't think that is spoiling for yourself, by the way, because it's almost like you don't know the end yet.

So that's how I always feel. I don't know yet that I'm not going to absolutely bugger this up. I know, that's the thing. I can't enjoy it until I know it went all right, thanks. Yeah, I sang everything in tune. It was went all right thanks yeah i just i sang everything in tune it was all all right i didn't fall over um and i i didn't well i probably didn't say something stupid because i normally do i'm terrible for that let's just talk nonsense just say things and afterwards i think oh god why did i say that why didn't someone stop me yeah yeah but

it's right it is just that fear of not being good and when does that fear start to dissipate is it when you start to sing I think so once I've got at least one number under my belt I think as long as I get through or there's always a I guess there's always a song in every show that is that moment you think god as long as I can get that note out then it's all going to be fine so if on the step store it was that first my first line because it was everything's right up there and it was i started it and it was a bit acapella and as soon as that was out i was fine gotta say your voice was sensational like Like, so good. Thank you. Like, really, really impressive. And it's funny that I totally relate to all of that.

And I think it's also, it's a bit of a confidence trip with performing because just because you've done all the stuff before, it's still all roads only lead to the point that you're at in that moment. And I always feel like I'm only really as good as the last thing I did anyway. So, and also the more you've done, the more you think, but I've done all, I've got all this experience. that moment and I always feel like I'm only really as good as the last thing I did anyway so yeah and

also the more you've done the more you think but I've done all I've got all these experience I should just be able to just have this now yeah and actually you can still feel nervous but sometimes when you do the really scary stuff and you get all that anxiety it's actually quite it's probably quite healthy because I don't suppose that the opposite is just feeling nothing or just being really chilled about it then yeah then what's what's the whole point the whole journey of it I think it definitely tells me that I care and I think that's half that's most of it isn't it is that if if you didn't really care then you I guess you wouldn't have those feelings and it's the most important thing for me is that I do a good job at every single time yeah and and it's not for the lack of wanting to do it's like sometimes

especially with your voice you know there are little things sometimes that happen you think oh god where did that come from and and the majority of the audience probably wouldn't even notice but I think I'm so so finickety and picky about what I sound like always got that in your head yeah the critics you know that note was a bit rubbish or I cracked on that and no one else would even think twice about it but yeah I think we're our own worst enemy sometimes and so when you're doing these things do you feel like you're doing them for yourself or is there part of you as well that wants to be able to show your kids what you're doing obviously all I whenever the kids are there

that's I want them to be proud of me I think everybody every parent does don't they and I think they don't they don't really live in that world a lot they've always been around it because it's I think we got back together properly in 2011 and we did tour in 2012 so they were still quite small but just seeing them absolutely loving it was that's the reason why I keep doing it now I mean I don't know if it's going to change but they still want to come they came to see War of the Worlds Charlie absolutely loved it. So he's, did you say he's nearly 15? Yeah.

And then your daughter's 12? 12, yeah. So, I mean, she's, he's quite geeky. He's into all his kind of sci-fi and superheroes and stuff. So he absolutely loved it. And they will come. They love to watch a show and they love to come and see it so and even if I think that maybe steps music is not their thing they will still come and he'll dance

well they both dance the whole way through the show and for me that's entirely what it's all about I don't think obviously we all work we all go to work to provide for our families and for our kids and stuff and that's an important part of it as well but I want them to I suppose look at me and think oh yeah she's actually she's really good at what she does yeah and I suppose as well just when you were saying for the world's part of these like I wanted to I could just stay here and just be here I sort of get the impression that maybe there's there's this sort of home thing that you do your family life and then your work is almost like sort of not not as integral like it's not like part of your everyday life yeah it's very I do keep it very separate but I think I have

to because there was a time where I would have they would bring them to work with me or I would and I could never concentrate on one thing completely, and I found that really difficult to deal with. So I would go to work, and I'm being Claire from Steps, if you like, but then they're there, and they're wanting attention, they're needing stuff from me, and I can't give that to them, but then I'm not giving my full attention to the job either. Yeah.

So I've found that really difficult. So it's much easier for me to go to work do what I have to do there and then come home and be mum and wife and and and I can really do that quite easily yeah I never used to be able to I remember coming back from tour in the old days and before I obviously had kids and anything and I'd be really down for two weeks afterwards because I've come back from tour and you're not getting that same kind of high every single night being on stage and getting what you get from the audience and I used to really struggle with that coming home and not having that but now it's the minute I walk through that door it's everything that I've done

is gone yeah and I'm here and I'm present and I'm doing what I'm doing here yeah I think that's the thing I love as well about home life and I think maybe that helps as well give a bit of perspective to the the side of us that gets a bit nervous about things yeah because it's kind of like yeah but right here and now, none of that matters. It gives you a break, basically, from that pressure. Absolutely. It's, I don't think I would have been able to do it before. And I don't know if it is just having kids that you have to.

You just have to. They're the priority whenever they're around. I think that's why I did struggle if ever they were in my work environment. And even now, I generally won't see them before a show. they're around I think that's why I did struggle if ever they were in my work environment and even now I generally won't see them before a show because it just it I don't know if it adds an extra layer of yeah I think that's very very smart because um I had a really nerve-wracking time with it before I did my London gig like three weeks ago yeah um and so it was the the last gig of a 17 date tour and you know like when you have your because I live in London so my friends and family

are coming so you've already got all that and I thought you know I just want to finish the tour on a high and I really stupidly had the kids come from soundcheck onwards and stay in my dressing room until it turned out 20 minutes before I went on and it was a nightmare I can't even imagine the little ones were really hyper and then my 12 year old, 13 rather he just didn't want to be there he was very cross with me

so even when I sent him out front he didn't want to watch the gig at all but it was very near his school and it was like just stick it out, you might as well now, there's no one at home and he was literally whatsapping me to my dressing room going i'm gonna watch one song and then i'm gonna come and see your dressing room oh my god um it was so stressful that while i was putting my glitter on i had my three-year-old like on my eyes i had my three-year-old on my lap and i accidentally put the glitter glue in my eye oh Maybe I'm not coping quite as well as I'd like to think.

So I think having that space for yourself is very, very smart indeed. If we rewind a little bit, what was going on in your life when you had your first baby? So, God, how I was, I was 29 when I had Charlie and I pretty much wasn't really doing anything. Steps had split, we split in 2001 and I had, between 2001 and having him in 2007, I really didn't do anything at all. It was just kind of... What did that time feel like that's quite a big yeah big amount of time if you've been that now sort of because also the late 90s and 2000s that's when steps were really yeah you know we're working so hard and it must have been a very intense period from 97 to 2001 we crammed quite a lot I think we we had three albums and the greatest hits

in kind of four years I suppose yeah and then actually I raised it from my memory but 2002 H and I did an album together as well so so from about 2003, I wasn't really doing anything. At first it was great because I just thought... I was 18 when I got my first record deal and it wasn't with Steps, it was a different band. So I'd kind of been on the road and toured. Was that a pop band as well? Yeah, just girl groups, three girls.

And even though we didn't have any hits, we toured a lot. We supported Boyzone and and deck when they were doing their music a lot and did smash hits it was toured for that whole year so it's kind of i mean that's an amazing era to be doing yeah it was great and it was never like that ever again really yeah everybody was really in it together you learn so much though right it's like a crash course and it was so much you need to know about yeah it was my training yeah i didn't have any other training apart from that really so it was my I left I went to a normal secondary school I left at 17 and within two months of leaving I'd signed a record deal so and it was all just coincidence really it wasn't just sort of

serendipity yeah I met somebody I met somebody a karaoke and who introduced me to this person who introduced me to that person who said do you want to be in a girl band and I just went yeah right and I didn't even really audition so it was all kind of and and even that having that experience helped me to get steps if you like yeah because the the guy who was managing it remembered me from the band I was in before so so when did that how long did that last that first band a year and then I started I worked in a reception of a hotel spa for a while and then I temped on just reception work um and then so that was 96 and 97 the May was when steps were put together and um I think because I'd had all that time and I've definitely got a theory about how you unless you can step yourself out of it, the age you kind of become famous to a certain degree

is the age you kind of stay to a certain degree. Something crystallises. Yeah, because you're thrown into this world that's completely different from anything you've ever known. And I think only having that time away from it gave me the perspective and the ability to not be 18 for the rest of my life I suppose that makes a lot of sense I think and actually Gwyneth Paltrow said

the same thing and then once and I remember reading that and thinking that's really true yeah there's something that crystallizes when that happens to you for sure yeah you have to sort of do your learning outside of that by yourself when things are on the downward yeah basically and I absolutely did when that all came to an end I at first thought oh this is great I can I can do what I want and I don't have to get up at stupid o'clock every day and and for the first few weeks it was great and then after a while you start thinking I don't know I don't know what to do with myself I didn't know at all what to do with myself I didn't know how to pay a bill I didn't really I bought my first house by then but I'd not really I think it it was done and empty for a good six months before I even moved in I stayed at my parents so it was kind of I just didn't really know how to be an adult or how to do stuff for myself, I suppose, and how to have a life that wasn't just me being at home all the time, because that's all I did really for a long time.

And I gained a lot of weight and got married, got divorced. And then when I had Charlie, I think I was a bit sick of that cycle. And then obviously when I had him, this whole, I don't know, instinct took over and I just thought, right, I need to go back to work. I need to start earning my living again and start being an adult and being responsible. And we weren't married when we had him. We got married after we had Charlie. we weren't married when we had him we got married after we had Charlie and I and I I suppose and I didn't do what I do I didn't sing at that point

I you know I did a fitness dvd and I did interviews and I kind of I did a bit of presenting and I made a few documentaries and stuff, mostly about weight loss and things, but I didn't do what I'm supposed to be good at for a long, long time. And then when I did start doing that again, it was, I had this real battle to kind of make people remember that's what I was here for in the first place. Yeah. That's the reason why I have a career. Well, maybe for you as well

yeah back into that to own it again to be like okay this is grown-up version of me doing the thing yeah without the bits that meant that you know the band didn't sustain at that point and all those things and it was a bit harder I think when you're young for me anyway I always had a voice and I it always was just there and I went through this weird period where it wasn't and I every time I tried to sing it just wouldn't do what I wanted it to do or what what I was used to it doing and I think it was getting used to that being older and understanding that this it doesn't just happen you have to work at it and you have to look after it as well. So I went through that kind of weird period of time and I did a show called Popstar Tropstar

which changed absolutely everything for me when it came to my voice and singing. Yeah, that's an incredible experience. It was fantastic. What a discipline as well. I know. So do you think that was another one of those, I'm really anxious and why did I say yes to this and I'm

called it was six weeks ago and now it's four weeks away and now it's three weeks and actually it's tomorrow and all of those no I get really excited about all of these things because especially when I get chosen to do stuff I think oh it's so great and they must really believe in me and then I I wasn't confidence wise I was probably like I feel like if I did that show now, it would be a completely different experience. But at the time it was definitely at the start of me gaining back my confidence. So I just looked like a rabbit in the headlights for most of the time. And although I,

I absolutely loved it. And I cried my eyes out the day I got kicked off. I was absolutely devastated. But I just was terrified all the time. And it affected my performance every single time I did it. Yeah, that's really exhausting as well, isn't it? That horrible version of nerves that you just can't quite get on top of. Yeah, and it's so frustrating because you want to do a good job

and it just affects your breathing, which is so key, especially with that kind of singing as well. But it definitely set me on the road back to here, I suppose, where we are now. Which is amazing, really. It's like a really unlikely curveball to do that but I think yeah sometimes you just take these things on and I think when you said if you did it now it'd be a different experience but there's probably a reason why that was the time you did it and you know that's kind of I needed those things work yeah definitely

needed it at that point and it was a opportunity for an audience to see because I think people have this kind of preconceived idea about steps to a certain degrees that we are just a really manufactured pop band and we we're not any good of what at what we do I think our fans know we can and we know we can with there's a track record there but I think because 5678 was our first single that's a lot of what people remember so they just think oh they can't sing so for me it's there's been a lot about proving that I can and I I feel like I've always been I don't know, chasing that approval, I suppose, from people who never really did with us, which is stupid because I'm a grown-up. No, I totally understand.

I don't know if it's actually... I was thinking about it from my point of view. I think once... I think pop in that era, because that's also the same sort of time that I was starting my music career, and I was doing pop music from sort of 2001 onwards and pop at that time was like a really quite a dirty word, you know.

It wasn't really given any, like now, the credibility that's associated with the songwriting and having a hit in that and production and all that is way different. Everybody will actually sort of listen more to when things actually succeed. But then I don't think it was seen as a sort of easy route and actually pop music firstly I don't think it's that easy I mean trying to write something that's catchy as a you know purity of the emotional sentiment and is three three and a half minutes long and delivers it all so you get it on your first listen yeah like honestly like

it's pretty tricky yeah um but secondly I suppose you've got the legacy of now you've had so much time so it's about to say 25 years like that proves something in itself and i think people sit up and listen once you kind of cross over a threshold like actually i'm still here and we're still doing arena tours and it's still yeah all of that but it does does take a while and i think there's that that inner critic thing as well like every time there's something off the cuff or a bit underhand it kind of goes right to your core of like is everybody thinking that yeah when actually most people aren't thinking anything really no you're right I think we there was a change I think it was when we did the first album of new material that we'd done in years and it was quite I mean

it's still very pop and it was still very steps but we've tried to kind of bring it into into this day and age i guess and i noticed a shift in how when people would write something about us in back in the day they would they would it would be really really nice and then at the end there'd be some kind of backhanded snide kind of comment but when in 2017 when we released that album it wasn't it was everything was just nice and it was a bit kind of okay maybe that has shifted because we are 20 years down at that point and are people you're taking it on face value now and rather than judging us for what they think we are yeah which i think is what or it was a bit it wasn't cool to admit that you like i was gonna

say i was also because the people that are doing the write-ups they've grown up yeah too so a lot of the same journalists are still around but actually they're like oh they're not associating with you know that that sort of um you know the way it was cool to write they're just thinking oh i used to love that song actually oh that was me at uni or something yeah like they've sort of forgotten that they weren't supposed to be yeah talking about the same way you're not allowed to like steps no i mean the proof's in the pudding and i think i was thinking about on the way here like there's so many pop groups and pop artists just fall by the wayside, because it's really tough and it's a quick turnover and there's normally this key bit where it's all, like, high octane.

And then past that, the momentum comes from a mixture of the longevity of the people in the group and their determination to actually make it work, but also having a fan base. And if one of those two things isn't there, like, it's just not going to work, is it? I think we have all got the same mentality when it comes to...

We are all quite determined to make it work, and we're very... You know, Steps is our... It's our business, but it's also our baby, I guess. I think... And the fact that it's still the five of us is a big part of it and and there came a point where we really took over the back in the day it was you know everything was

Pete Waterman really we just were there and we were apart from the tours the tours were always our that was our moment to be able to explore what we'd been given if you like yeah and make it ours yeah but now it's very much ours you know we don't write as a band but we every single song is chosen by us we and it takes months and months and months for us to do that and and it's you know that we've got five very different personalities so it's not easy and it's not easy to have five quite creative minds wanting to do different things and get into a point where it's all the same it's very hard yeah it's not the easiest process but we do all get there because our end goal is the same yeah and also steps has almost it's almost like the

extra person in the room there's actually what the band you know the essence of that so you've got to always kind of there's like a fixed parenthesis of what that means you know like the boundaries of what will work for steps yeah and I think you're right when you said a steps audience it does feel like a family it's there's a very I don't know if everybody feels this I've said it before about their their fans it feels different to me I don't know if that the way that our fans look at us and the way they see us in their lives it's quite a it feels like it's really important yeah I would agree with that from my my perspective as well there's like an intensity of that bond I suppose it's quite formative and I think the fact that you've been something that's been there you know with with the you know the the highs and the lows of that long-term relationship that the

band has brought that's brought an extra level of affection yeah the times when you've gone yes we're all together and look at us I mean it's that's really great that's a story in itself isn't it it's been it's meant something to them to follow every incarnation and all the stuff that's gone on. And, yeah, I mean, I think it's amazing because, you know, my husband's in a band. He met them when he was a teenager. So I know very well what it's like to manage those dynamics

and the whole thing. But actually, I've always said to Richard, whenever there's anything where you know they're struggling to get everybody on the same page or something I'm like yeah but if you change out one person it's not the same band it just all changes or one's missing yeah it's not the same it's definitely I think um we've been quite lucky in the fact that it's still all five of us I think yeah and we've always said it wouldn't be the same yeah you know there were three other the first um incarnation of steps I suppose didn't have me Faye and Lee in it oh really there were three other people originally and they lasted about six months and then the

audition that found us was when it became what you see it now and I definitely I do believe in stuff like everything happens for a reason yeah and also there's a chemistry between people when you're working together like that you're going to keep that going like that just it's not always the case that you can do it i know there's been times when it hasn't been all of you together and stuff but as i was i'm always i love um band histories and all that stuff so is it really the case that h was traveling around with britney spears on her private jet because that is an amazing i love that H was travelling around with Britney Spears on her private jet? Because that is an amazing... I love that story so much.

So please tell me it's true because I was obviously a bit sad. No, it is true. That's so brilliant. I know. So we toured, I think it was 99. I wonder if we got up in the morning. You're on tour bus and he's in the private jet. We're all kind of waking up at two o'clock in the morning, dragging ourselves into a hotel.

And he's getting a lovely night's sleep in a hotel and flying by private jet everywhere with Brittany. I know. So brilliant. Yeah. And I loved it when he said, well, I wasn't really chatting with her because she was tired. I was actually mainly talking to her mum. Like you all go like, oh, that's fine then. Yeah.

That's fine. And mum, she had an assistant called Felicia who was always with her and Big Rob, her security. I mean, she was still a kid then. I think she was only 16 or 17 probably. No wonder she was tired. And it was her first big tour. I think she'd only even had two releases or something. I'm trying to remember.

So this was 2000, was it? No, it was 1999. The summer of 1999. So we were there from like june to august so yeah that's all like just the beginning of her career really isn't it yeah yeah wow so it was an experience i mean it was everyone thinks it's great that age flew around on a private jet but we were all a bit kind of it's really funny because it caused some issues i'm not surprised that's really that's really gonna ruffle caused some issues. I'm not surprised. That's really going to ruffle some feathers.

I'll meet you guys there. Yeah, it's fine. I'll see you in the dressing room. Felicia coming in going, hey guys, H, we're leaving in about an hour. Is that good for you? Oh my God. Oh dear.

Yeah, that's great. See you later, guys. All good. Yeah, I just love all. Oh, dear. Yeah, that's great. See you later, guys. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's, I just love all those stories, though. I mean, bands, we're definitely capable of ridiculousness. And also, at a time when, you know,

especially in that sort of pop thing and when you're part of a major label and there's a schedule and you've got to be here, there and everywhere and everybody's telling you what to do. And then, actually, there's not a lot of, sort of, you know, the currency of, you know, good manners and etiquette and stuff

becomes very quickly devalued when you're not really being treated that kindly yourself, you know? I mean, we, I remember when we went to America, we found it really difficult because we're, you know what it's like here, when you're on that promo trail, it's relentless. And we were, you know what it's like here when you're on that promo trail it's relentless and we were you know I remember the the it was always the Saturday before release or the Saturday of release so the the single would get released on the Monday and you would kind of do your promo

all week and then on your Saturday it would be SMTV, CD UK yeah another tv like the lottery or something and then go and do gay at like three o'clock two o'clock three o'clock the following what so it's you're nearly that last saturday before the chart you would be doing 24 hour days and we went to america we remember we called a meeting with the record label because we were like we've come here to work you know we're we're doing our show every night which was 20 minutes supporting britney that was all it was yeah and every night we the stage manager would kind of be in the pit like tapping her watch because we'd always go over and we were just like make you know give us stuff to do we are here

to do promo but that it's it works very differently out there. So we really struggled with that. It's probably our least busy time. And the only time we ever did TVs and stuff was if they'd come from here to film us on tour with Britney. So we've always had kind of really different experiences, but that was a kind of a weird time and I think the fact that we were all so bored and he's on a private jet didn't really help either no no because

he's having quite a lot of fun yeah great no promo and stick his case on the tour bus no problem I mean I just shopped my my way around America yeah that's what I would have done too for sure that's still what I do when I go on tour actually yeah yeah um so with with Steps and the sort of role it is in your in your head and in your life do you have you sort of had your kids ask many questions about it because it's almost like another long term relationship that sort of run alongside everything are they kind of aware of your relationship with your Claire from Steps persona I I think so, because I always make a joke of it to a certain degree now. I think, and sometimes it probably sounds so stupid,

but I kind of, I do refer to myself as Claire from Steps sometimes as I am another person. It's like that is not actually me. So when I'm being Claire from Steps they they they're completely aware of that but they're not really it's strange because they they know about Steps from 2011 onwards it's not I never they probably haven't even seen half of our old videos unless they've taken it upon themselves to have a look and I've never sat them down and gone oh watch this or listen to this we've had um they obviously know all the new material because

they're I play it to them so what do you think of this do you like it and they are honest and they will always tell me but um yeah they're completely they they get it they completely get that I am very much two different people yeah but I suppose when you're saying you prefer to clear from steps and I think that's like another example of your ability to box things up a little bit which is probably something that actually in the long time has been something that's really helped you with you know getting yourself to a place where you feel really happy and you've got your work things and I wondered as well if when you had that bit where you weren't singing and you were doing the other

things if you always felt like you'd come back to singing in the end did that does that always feel like the thing that's the essence of what you want you do what you want to keep doing yeah definitely now and even now I think every now and again I have to remind myself. I've spent, I think it's because I'm getting older and I'm 45 this year. And I think, can I do this? Can I do steps forever? And I keep trying to think of other careers and other, like, what can I do? Can I go and train and do something else?

And then I rack my brains and I think, right, what can I do? What can I do? What do I like like I love crafting can I you know set up a business where I make stuff or all sorts of things but actually I don't have to just be in steps to be able to sing and I think it's if you're it's really weird I think it's hard when you've I suppose you're known for having a talent without kind of sounding arrogant I suppose I don't think that's arrogant about to celebrate 25 years of that talent yeah it's completely justified but to be able to even consider that I can have a you, if you like, just singing. Because I would be quite happy just to sit and sing songs that I like all day, every day.

And if I can get paid for it, then that would be great. But I've never really considered that as my side hustle, if you like. I keep trying to think of my side hustle, what it could be. It's like, well, actually, it should probably just be me singing because that's what I'm good at and that's what I love. So I don't know, I never allow myself to think that I could do that. And every now and again, I come back from War of the Worlds and I think, God, I really enjoyed that.

And I got to sing every single night and I wasn't singing step songs. So is that a possibility? So I kind of, I don't know, every now and again get a little new breath of life into my love of it and what I want to do with it. Yeah, well, I suppose it's all kind of, you've got all these other things that you do and I think it's totally part as well, like me,

getting in our 40s and you've got all the bits of your life that you enjoy doing all the different things and obviously raising a family is a big part of that as well that takes up loads of headspace and loads of time and if I was you know on my deathbed I just think I want to be a good mum that would actually be the thing I would care about the most of all yeah but it's pretty crucial to me to have things that really I'm a bit selfish about and are mine. And like you, I feel like they make me a better mother in the long term as well. So I really enjoy my relationship with music because it gives me that.

And the thing about the time machine as well, that crystallised kind of dipping back to all the other times I've sung in my whole life, really. I think because we all enjoy those moments where we look back in our life where we were happiest I suppose and at nine times out of ten there is some kind of music that links that yeah and it makes you feel safe I think and I feel like with Steps especially and what everybody's been through the last couple of years, it's that everybody thinks back to the moments in their life where they felt safe. And I think steps is there a lot of the times.

I think that's why there's still an affinity with people. Yeah, you know what? I never heard it put like that. And actually, that's exactly right. That safety feeling. That's a really much more sort of articulate way of what I've been trying to say myself about. But they're the moments, if I look back in my life, the moments where, you know, growing up as a kid,

the moments when I was happiest was when I was in my bedroom with the window wide open, singing at the top of my lungs to Whitney Houston on the radio. And I remember falling asleep every single night. I'd listen to the radio and Martin Collins had a show, Mellow Madness. I used to listen to it every night. And if I think back to that, that's when I was most happy, apart from recent times.

And I think it's just remembering that. I think as you get older, you get so distracted by everything. And with what the kids... I think as they get older it is a bit easier because they they still need you but yeah I'm not having to run them here you know I don't have to take them to school anymore they have to get the bus so it's my my role is diminishing a little bit in terms of my responsibility of what I have to do with them. But being here is, especially for my daughter, she hates it when I go away, and that's the most gut-wrenching thing about it. She just, she never wants to...

I don't know why, there's only a dad and a brother. She doesn't want to be the only girl in the house, so she really struggles with it. And actually, my kids as well hate it when I go away. It's like that. I always say that's the worst part of my job is yeah to say that I'm going but then they are always fine aren't they that you get back and they've been fine they are always absolutely fine and I I definitely always feel better for having gone and done something like done your job or what you did before or however you want to look at it I maybe not after the step store because I definitely didn't but

after this war of the worlds tour I've I feel like I'm me again and I've I've kind of that again and I've I've kind of that the the mum that they need is here now and that's I it's really important to kind of keep that I know it's it's really easy to just be guilty all the feel guilty all the time when you're a parent and when you're a mum that works as well but you have to have those moments for yourself because if you don't then you're just no good to anybody that's how i feel yeah i'm doing lots of in fact nodding because i totally agree with you and actually you don't want to waste the things you're doing by feeling guilty because it doesn't it doesn't change it you'll still go out the door and do your job and do all those things you'd just be feeling wretched the whole time it's just nobody's really benefiting from that anyway

but i do think it takes a while to give yourself permission sometimes. And even now, I still sometimes, you know, say to my mum or my girlfriends, like, oh, I feel really bad. I've got to go and do this. And they'll be like, my mum's always like, it's what you do. It's okay.

It's what you do. It's okay. And it's, I enjoy the fact that they can see that I'm independent and they, you know, you don't have to rely on anybody to that's what I try to drum into them all the time just whatever happens just be independent and have your have something for yourself whether that be your job or or a hobby or something but

just always take those moments for yourself because I one one of the things I find most important is being independent I couldn't bear it if I had to rely on somebody for everything I know you know we all have to at some point in our lives and I have had to but I that kind of striving to be able to support myself is what keeps you going definitely and your kids and so were you raised in a musical family you mentioned singing no not at all I'm the only the only one we just I didn't I don't know where it came from I don't know why I just I became obsessed with Karen Carpenter when I was about 10 or 11 good Good choice. Yeah. Possibly my favourite female vocalist. She's just, I used to just,

my mum and dad had the Ticket to Ride album, their Ticket to Ride, and on vinyl, and I used just to play it and play it and play it and just try to copy the way she sang constantly. And that's where it started and that's where it came from. I always sang, but just, you know, like kids do.

I used to, you know, get my dressing up box and sing somewhere over the rainbow on my little stall in the and make everybody listen but I don't think anybody knew I was any good at it because no one in our family did it at all nobody thing that was done yeah just nothing and not even anybody since either in our family it's strange wow it's you yeah that's quite nice though because then you can kind of discover things for yourself yeah and did your mum work was she working yeah so she always worked part-time and so she was always there my dad always worked quite hard and he was the one that did late nights and stuff but she she always worked part-time and

she and it was always around I remember when probably even when I was 18 or 19 she would say she had to have school holidays off on her job um just to even though I wasn't there my sister sister left my sister did hairdressing so she left after her GCSEs so I was you both gone quite quite young yeah yeah yeah I didn't move out of home until I was 24 I think oh okay I think you left at 17 that's when you went no I just was on the road and back then I really was I'd come home I'd dump a suitcase and pack another one and yeah she'd do all my washing and never had to do anything yeah even when I moved out I would still go and dump my washing off and she'd do it for me

I might come back to bite you I know I do see similarities it's funny because when you have got kids and to a certain age I remember expecting my mum to do everything and every now and again she would kind of you don't do

anything to help us and and now you find yourself in that I literally do everything for my kids when I'm here like I if if they didn't have to do a single thing they probably wouldn't and I do try and like if you kind of resort to bribery sometimes do that i'll give you 50p although they have 50p but they do it for 50p i think mine and maybe but i think they negotiate yeah they've got these go henry card thingies oh yes yeah that was a mistake i did that as well yeah just means it piles up because i think i used to forget to give pocket money and that was quite good and then i go oh it's probably three weeks i owe you and now there's it's just that yeah it's just automatic yeah I haven't worked out how to pay for they have them to pay for things so I do oh okay I'll get it now and

you pay me back and it just never happens yeah so that was a silly move that for me but I know they have the little chores on there you're supposed to do little ticked off things but it's normally the things that I really don't want to do like emptying the dishwasher yeah or walking the dog yeah maybe I'm very impressed so before we started recording you're telling me that you got a dog in lockdown that they the children were so sure we were going to look after they even did a powerpoint presentation about about this dog and how good it was going to be for everybody and how much they're going to do and it's materialized to them doing yeah doing absolutely nothing. And now she's definitely my dog.

And I don't think I would even trust them to walk up without me. But she's... Having a little sleep while we chat. Yeah, she is good. She's very sweet. But I do, whenever I say to Charlie, are you coming for a walk with us?

And he goes, is that a question? Or are you telling me that I have to? Daisy comes quite a lot she's quite good at the weekends but yeah it's all me um I know what I wanted to ask you mentioned about crafting and I know you did sewing bee how did you find sewing bee by the way it was so much fun it's one of my favorite programs yeah it was um it was quite hectic and there were really long days we did it was only two days up in leeds um but i thought i was all right at serving before i did that and it's yeah can you do your own did you always do your own alterations and things like that are you good with that no not really not really i think because we've always had especially back in the day we our way of

linking ourselves together because we were mixed it was to always have the same color that's why we all like three pastels but um and that meant having costumes pretty much made from scratch most of the time so they would just buy a roll of fabric and amazing it's a bit like um julie andrews in the sound of music pulling the curtains down i was think that's what it was like with us. Oh, I love that. That's a good reference. I'm always trying to dress like I'm wearing

something made out of curtains. It's my go-to. Yeah, no, I never really did that. I did art and design and textiles, A-levels and GCSEs. Oh, really? Oh, right, so that's part of your life from the get-go. Yeah, but I didn't do it

it's not really a, I love making things, I make a lot of stuff out of pom-poms and that was the extent of it these days but to actually, I'd never made a garment so I had to make a waistcoat on there which was

quite interesting, I picked completely the wrong fabric but I just picked something that had unicorns and was sparkly um but it was good fun it was really good fun it was hard work but it was really good fun so I wonder if maybe you came if you come from a family that's you know supportive but not they're not creatives maybe there's actually quite a lot you can still tap into with all of that yeah I do I've got one of those minds but I always say it's like butterfly brain it's like I I kind of I'm here and I'll do that and then I won't finish that and then I'll go here and I'll do something else and then I'll I just get distracted too easily and I need to focus the only thing I've ever really

been able to focus on for anything any long period of time is music and singing. That's enough. Stick with that. So I always ask everybody if they're the sort of mother they thought they would be. Do you think you're the sort of mum you thought you'd be? God, I don't know. I don't think anyone's asked me that question before.

I think I'm the sort of mum I want to be. I don't know if I'm the sort of mum I want to be I don't know if I'm the sort of mum I thought I would be I think I always want to well did you always want children I suppose yeah I did always want definitely always wanted kids and I always wanted to be a mother and always I always just wanted to have that relationship with my kids where they can come to me for anything and there's a friendship there but also I am their mum and they I never wanted to treat them like they're just my friends and I think that's when the lines get blurred a little bit I want them to again emphatic nodding yeah I want them to respect me and I want them to listen to my advice rather than just think I'm lecturing them all the time and be strict but not too strict it's you know my mum was quite strict

when I was growing up so I and I and my sister was quite a rebel so I was the one that I probably kind of I didn't do a lot when I was younger because of kind of making up the fact that my sister was outrageous. And I remember even in my 20s, I'd come home at like two o'clock if I'd been out and my mum would be sat with a cup of tea waiting for me to come in. So I always, I don't, I want to trust them, but I don't. Which is really hard, I think, these days. I think parenting is so different to when we were younger.

Definitely. There's so much more to worry about. And I don't know if that's just because we're a generation of worriers, or if there really is more to worry about, which I'm sure there is. I don't know. I think there's a transparency now that makes us feel like if the information is out there, we should know everything. Whereas I think before

there was just a lot more that yeah I mean my parents just didn't know where I was if I wasn't home maybe not when I was older but definitely younger you know I'd be out all day long on my bike somewhere and they wouldn't think twice I wouldn't think twice. I wouldn't think twice. But I couldn't, like now, I would be looking at my phone, we're tracking them. Exactly. You know, we're constantly, where are they?

And my mind automatically goes, that must be up to no good. Yeah. And they never are. Because they are actually, they are really good kids and they don't want to, like Daisy would be devastated

if she thought she'd done something yeah wrong yeah i think it's that thing of the transparency of being able to actually as you say track them and all that i mean yeah if you feel like if you can do all that then you should know about it and then if like and then that encourage you to think that you're tracking them so that the bad thing doesn't happen whereas before you didn't have that option so they just go off and then you just had to go they'll probably come back safe and sound. Yeah. So I think there's probably a bit of that.

The one thing I always have said to them is that just whatever happens, it doesn't matter how bad it is, you've always just got to tell me the truth. Because as long as I know, I can help you. If I don't know, then that's where we get into situations that we don't want to be in. So I always just encourage them to be honest with me, even if it's not the best situation. Nine times out of ten they are. But there's always that little bit where they're not.

Yeah, but also they learn how to tell you the things you should hear. Yeah. So don't worry, that's just a trick, isn't it? It's part of growing up as well um it's something i i feel uncomfortable asking you because it's not something i would normally bring up but because you mentioned about your documentaries where you were doing sort of weight loss documentaries i feel it would probably be a bit strange if i didn't ask you about okay your relationship with raising kids when that's something that you've you know been quite open about yeah your relationship with raising kids when that's something that you've been quite open about your relationship with.

Is that something that you've found tricky with raising the kids? Or it's not really something that you've had to worry about in the way you thought you might? And you don't have to answer to talk about this. It's really very far out of my vocabulary to talk to anybody about body image. Because I think it is important nowadays as well because again they're growing up in a completely different environment that's very true I mean it's bad enough all my issues started when I got into the band and not even steps actually the first band it was you know we were put on a diet immediately and really made to lose weight yeah

when you were a teenager I was 18 yeah oh my god that's horrific and so I and the things that I did from then on I remember even then the first I think all I ate was peas and fish fingers for ages oh it's just so weird it is weird but it's also if someone's telling you that's what it takes and that's also hardwired to be well if I'm going to be in a successful group this is obviously what everybody's doing and this is what I need to do and the day the audition for steps they said they wanted me but I had to lose weight so that's now I mean can you imagine that happening now no I'm sorry what excuse me it's actually not legal to talk like that yeah trying to start a job but wow but that was from my so that was my day one really and so and it did set me on a very it i'm better now but it's still something that is in my head every single day and I think

also knowing the things that the kids have to all we had to deal with was airbrush I remember going for a meeting years ago and we are record company were trying to persuade us to do FHM and the way they persuaded us or tried to persuade us to do it was that they came and they bought two photographs and they went this is this is the photo it's the airbrushed photo yeah and then said and but this was what it looked like before so look what we can do we can like make you look like this and that was the selling point wow and and now it's that's on your phone. Yeah. The kids, so it's even less real than it was back then. So I find that harder to deal with.

I mean, you know, my kids are, Charlie's never had a problem, but he's a really fussy eater. So it's, he will only eat certain things. And he's, everyone's told me for years he'll grow out of it. And he never has. And he's got a real... I don't know if it's a texture thing, but he gets things in his head and he just won't eat them.

Daisy's much more, she'll try anything. And if she doesn't like it, she won't eat it. And that's healthier, I think. It's so tricky, isn't it? Because you want them to learn how to be healthy and how to look after themselves and have a really positive relationship that's got no association with shame and trying to navigate that is really hard um and I also think your emotional uh relationship with food is is pretty much there from I think maybe even by the time you

get double figures because it's an emotional thing i mean we you know think about people talk about like their grandma's cooking or a meal they had or you know they're all they're all feeding in or if you you know used to go home to an empty house you would eat because there's no one there when you get in from school so that it's all multi-layered and it's not the literal of like there when you get in from school so that it's all multi-layered and it's not the literal of like it's hardly ever just I really love eating that no it's it's really complex it's not and I definitely my relationship with food is very complicated and it I don't remember it when I was a kid you know we had three meals a day my mum would cook every night it was never I don't ever remember my mum being on a diet nothing like that I mean she's quite small

and always has been so I don't it wasn't something that I had growing up at all I mean I was I was quite sporty at school I always had a big bum and chunky legs and I was but not bullied but comment you know the they were the comments that I would get at school but I can never I don't ever feel like it was an issue until I started working um but I've gone from being dangerously thin to obese and and I and I honestly do believe it's all part of the same if it's if it's an eating disorder it's it's it's one extreme to the other but it's still it's the same whatever it's still, it's the same, whatever that eating disorder is, it's the same thing. Yeah. It's an extreme.

A hundred percent. And, you know, control and an emotional thing and, you know, there's ways to disappear in both directions, actually, in terms of how you feel when you walk in a room. And, you know, and the way people can talk about it very openly as well when you're in the public eye. Yeah. Or just, you know, as you you say at school and place like that i do think there's a there is a massive lack of understanding generally and i think especially on the overweight side of it i think people just look at anybody who's overweight that they're lazy and and and got no discipline. And I don't, I'm not lazy. And I definitely do have discipline,

but I found myself in that position. And, you know, I struggle every day. I have to touch wood, and I've managed to maintain a good size now for a long time, but it's a battle every day. And I don't, and people just don't understand that psychological side of it and I generally yeah and I think I think there's definitely movements to make things a bit more balanced in terms of representing different body shapes and

also putting emphasis more on strength and fitness yeah which I think is brilliant because being strong and who doesn't want to feel capable? Oh, absolutely. That's a real positive. But yeah, the association that there's one body shape that is the right body shape, I think, is just really old-fashioned. And that's never... We're over the same generation, so we went right through that whole thing of, as you say, the airbrushing and all of that stuff,

and sort of late 90s, you know, like mid-drift tops and all of that. Like, oh my... I just... And the heroin chic. That was, like oh my i just yeah the heroine chic that was like back then that was yeah that's what they used to look at it like wow yeah but that's what everybody if you didn't look like that then you were wrong yeah and it's impossible no one's ever going to look the same and i just i kind of wish that i'm starting out now because the body shape that i've got it would have fit perfectly the big bum and everything and small waist and it's um it is a minefield and I think I just we have to be so careful especially with our girls that it's

everything is it's the same but different and I almost feel like it's worse it's the unattainable that everybody wants yeah and that's not that's never changed and I don't feel like it's getting any better no you might be right but not for the time being with as you say like the way you can present yourself online and and it takes a while for you to understand that the people that communicate a lot online and use all the filters are actually the ones that are actually not necessarily leading the happiest realities. But from the outside looking in, it looks like amazing. That's the glamorous thing to try and get to. But I suppose what it really comes down to is just as you say just trying to keep their relationship

with bodies really healthy and happy and and you've got to be able to love the skin you're in haven't you yeah you do and I think if we can get to that sooner in our lives then we'll be better off for it I think when I hit 40 I did start caring less but also which made me healthier in a way yeah like made me more active it made me because I was doing it just to feel healthy not because I was trying to lose weight I feel exactly the same way I go into my 40s and I was suddenly like actually I feel the most comfortable in my skin I'm not I'm not in you know I've been in much better shape and all of that but it just suddenly wasn't really emphasis anymore yeah and when i've done my tours and i can still jump around and sing and dance at

the same time i'm like great i can do the things i want to do and that's kind of enough for me no exactly probably she goes to the gym a bit more well yeah i'm quite slack on that at the moment but i can come back in its own time you know what though? I'd love to go for a really long walk. Oh, yeah, I love walks, too. And I think I feel like that makes me feel well enough. Yes, I have got a wobbly bum and I have got, you know, it's not great when you have to put on a skimpy costume, but I did, when was it, 2012, when we got back together,

I was much bigger then. And I did that whole show, vigor same energy same effort as everybody else but I was probably four stone heavier than I am now and I was fine and I did it and it was great and I didn't that gave me confidence to know that I didn't have to be a stick to be able to do my job well. I still did it well. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And for what it's worth,

I think you look phenomenal on the tour, all the outfits. My personal favourite was the first one, I have to say. Oh, the purple. The sort of Abba goes to space. Yeah. Yeah, that was my personal fave. The quality street. Yeah, it looked great though.

Actually, quite a lot of our costumes were, we had the gold one at the end. Yeah, yeah. That was quite quality street-ish. had the gold one at the end. Yeah, yeah. That was quite Quality Street-ish. And the purple one at the beginning. There's something very impactful about seeing people all dressed in a way that complements each other.

It does work. It's a bit like the dance routines. There's something really cool about lots of people doing the same thing all at once. Yeah. It just, it's like infectious. Yeah. So, yeah, it's all good.

Well, thank you for discussing that with me because I know that it's not something I would thank you for discussing with me because i know that it's not something i would naturally bring up but i just think as i said because of you've been had quite an open relationship with you know talking about it i probably would have walked away thinking actually no as you say it is something and you know my kids are all different shapes and sizes i think for me the whole thing is just that thing of like starting point is you've got to be really accepting of where you are right now like you have a lovely body and everything's great. And if you want to do this, that and the other,

if you want to be, you know, do some more exercise or build as they get older, you know, that's all wonderful. And there's loads of ways you can do it and your body's going to lap it up because you're young and capable. But I just want them to feel good. You have to find, you've got to find your own path.

And I don't, I think you're told so much when you're young and when you're growing up. So you have to do this. You must go to school. You have to learn that. And I think, I know from, the more I'm told not to do something or to do something, then that's the thing that will make me do the opposite.

And that's probably why I got fucked in the first place. Oh, you really shouldn't be eating that. So I would be in the cupboard eating 10 of them instead of half. Do you know what I mean? And for a moment, it floods your brain with, it's comforting. Yeah.

Isn't it? But then you're full of absolute self-loathing afterwards because you think, what did I do that for? But it is a cycle that you can't get off. And I found myself in that for a long time but I've got balance now but I don't ever want I don't ever want my kids to have gone through from start to finish what I have in terms of that because it's just not worth it now well you can and that's the the beauty of being able to impart wisdom isn't it from your own experiences to say

you know look trust me I know I know what I'm talking about with this stuff and it does it does help people when you have those conversations there'll be people that can listen to this now and be like I find it helpful because it resonates you know I don't know hardly anybody that's never had a time where they feel uncomfortable with their body image or looking at something else and thinking is that what I'm supposed to look like it's just part and parcel of I think everybody does terms with yourself really isn't it yeah absolutely yeah so going back to the here and now and I'll set you free in a minute are there things in your do you have to tell me what they are there are things in your diary already that you've said yes to that you're already thinking I'm probably gonna feel nervous as that comes up but I'm excited about it now um do you know what there actually

isn't at the moment I think because this year especially is a steps year still so I'm very much in a steps headspace but I've got lots of ideas and plans of things that are different and that could be really really exciting if it happens and something that I would like would never have thought of doing before so I guess you could look at sort of West End and musicals and things like that if you loved doing your War of the Worlds so much. I don't. Do you know what? A lot of people have said that. And the difference with War of the Worlds is that my part was kind of 12 minutes.

And as long as I can stick to a 12-minute role, then I'd be great. There must be some 12-minute roles available. I'm sure there are. There's probably less. There's probably eight-minute ones as eight minute ones especially ones where I'd get to die as well because that was my favorite bit dying that's can you remind me how did your character die um she goes into a house that is still standing and that gets blown up by the martian and then I would come up every night on the lift in in like a kind of strategically placed rubble and i put a lot of effort into my dead body position it was the most exciting bit our jobs are quite silly sometimes i know

and every night i would think because duncan duncan from blue was played my husband and he's like playing this kind of mad mad parson who's completely engulfed by the fact that he thinks the martians are the devil and every night i was trying to like what can i do to try and put him off so i'd kind of be there with one eye open and then and i i always thought he couldn't he didn't notice but he noticed every single night he was just too professional he was too professional we're lucky though aren't we get to do really extreme stuff and then go back and just be like yeah i did that you know normal do you know what sometimes it's only after when you're talking about it you think actually that sounds completely ridiculous Duncan from Blue was my husband while I was

laid dead on a stage in a load of rubble and um it's definitely got elements of a fever dream creeping in yeah it's not words that I ever thought I would say in a sentence there's so many things it's like I always do say that I've everything every time I do something different and something new it's like I've got a bucket list that I've never written. And it's like I've just, I go, oh, I ticked that off. I didn't know I wanted to do that, but I've done that. And it just keeps coming all the time because of the opportunities that you get presented with that you just think, that doesn't sound ridiculous,

but it actually is completely ridiculous. Hell yeah. And I actually think that's so good for your brain as well. I think we're so lucky. And the other night I went, one of my girlfriends is in a band that was um supporting Sting so I went to watch her do a gig and then we watched his gig and we went out for supper and I was like I'm so lucky this is just going to see my girlfriend do her work yeah and um her work is actually really fun and and then when I do my thing I can bring my friends along and yeah it

helps me remember that it is a bit bit silly and really a good giggle and there's lots of fun stuff to it I know we are very lucky we are there's there's there's downsides to it sometimes but I think the upsides really do outweigh they do and you have to keep hold of the joy bits because actually I can't think of any job that doesn't have that sort of bit that's tricky or challenging or whatever no um so the but the bit that makes you really excited is that's what it is that's the bit that you're getting to getting to do what you love I think there aren't many people that can say they could do that in any job I guess yeah so to be able to to do what you're good at and that you love it is you're winning yeah yeah and it's important in a band actually to keep that because yeah

it's very easy to get a bit cynical and bitter and you know down about things i mean i can't say i'm not cynical you know what i mean like everybody likes to be jaded no but you can everybody well i think with the tour you did when you weren't allowed to go out and about, that's not going to help with that. But I think, generally speaking, you know, it's like looking up and out is important. Otherwise, it's very easy to kind of...

I mean, I'm a sort of moaner by default, I think, basically. So I have to remind myself not to moan about actually everything. But I've realised as well, because I'm very spoilt with having a job where I can work very intensely for periods, but i also have it where it's yeah so basically if i have more than like three days of work in a week sometimes i'll be like oh i've got to work another fourth day yeah i'm like there are people that have to work like properly shift work yeah and no one says afterwards like you were really great well done two whole days in a row yeah

that's so good so yeah pretty pretty cushy really and actually our lives have mirrored there's quite a lot of similarities i also signed my first record deal at 18 and then it was all done and dusted by the time i was 19 and then went and did something else there's quite a lot we're like i'm like the indie version of you. I'm the cheesy pop version. Well, no, I won't. Come on, I won't fall for pop. My heart's in pop. Bloody love pop. Well, here's to 25 years as well. Thank you. Thank you so much.

I'm going to have a biscuit now. I'm going to go for one of these choco lieblings. They're my favourite. I can keep getting away with a chocolate. I can keep getting away from chocolate. See? Isn't she lovely? It's such a nice chat. As I knew it would be.

And I've got a choco-lead and it's out of it as well. Note to future guests, if I come round your house, it skips a nice touch. Actually, most people do do nice things like that. I'm just just being cheeky that's what i'm being um what have i got on this week oh tomorrow i'm going off to the studio for four days actually i'm going to go away to go and finish my blimmin album so this is my eighth original album now so you call it original as in it's not a covers album

sorry not i don't mean not covers i can speak today. You can tell I've had no sleep. I mean, it's not a greatest hit or anything like that. Or covers for that matter. This is my third album I've done with Ed Harcourt. It's kind of Japanese synthy pop. So no disco, no dance, really. But hopefully stuff that might still get you on your feet and um i'm really really excited about finishing off it's half done and i'm gonna get it all done it's gonna be lovely and um so i'm gonna enjoy my my sunday take it nice and easy i've got another lovely guest for you next week in the form of lisa eldridge makeup artist uh presenter, broadcaster, author, businesswoman, extraordinaire. We had a lovely chat.

I will see you in one week. Thanks so much for lending me your ears. I don't do this often enough, but thank you to Ella May for my amazing artwork for the podcast. She's back for another series, series seven. I'm really happy. Thank you to my amazing husband, Richard, who does all the editing. You do a great job, darling. Thank you.

I will stop in a minute, Mickey. This is important. And finally, a huge... All right, Mickey. I really... If you have a three-year-old in your life, is this how they talk to you? Shall I stop?

Push you. Yes, I will push you. Thank you very, very much to Claire Jones, my producer and friend, who is so brilliant and comes with me to the recordings and makes this whole thing a lot more professional you can tell she's not here for the intros and outros which is why it's a mess but anyway i do love you long time and it's quite nice to talk to you in amongst

doing all the stuff with my tiny boss people all right see you in a week Thank you.