Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 72: Konnie Huq

Episode Date: September 12, 2022

Konnie Huq is a presenter and writer and a mum of two boys aged 8 and 10. She was also the longest serving female presenter of Blue Peter from 1997 to 2008. The Blue Peter link makes us feel like we are almost related. Like my mum, Konnie loved her time on Blue Peter and time flew because she found every day on the programme was so fun and different. We talked about how she and Charlie Brooker got married within 9 months of getting together, how different her two boys are from one another, and how she finds joy in simple things. Konnie and I talked about her children's books about a character called Cookie Haque (hmm, now who could that be based on?) which she writes in chunks on her phone. We also mused on the high expectations people have of parenting these days, when both of us remember long periods waiting in the car while our parents shopped or did errands. And how unthinkable that would be now, when it's all bathtime and bedtime and fitting around the children instead!Towards the end of our chat we got quite deep and philosophical about the influences in childhood which go on to make the adult. Konnie recognises the little things that her mum taught her as a child that are now very much part of her make up - not wasting food being an important principle which her parents brought with them when they moved to the UK from Bangladesh in the 60s.So, I hope your ears are feeling agile today because Konnie is lively and lovely and has a brain which will take you on some wonderful tangents! Enjoy!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis Bextor, it is produced by Claire Jones and post-production is by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing It can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to spinning plates Hey there darlings How you doing? I'm sorry. I'm a little bit out of breath. I just ran into Mickey's room while he's in the hallway

uh I've got to go to work in a minute it's Saturday I am not complaining but I am a bit tired and sometimes when work swings around at the weekend you do have this thing of like I just want to stay with the kids today I just love a light lazy Saturday, enjoying this last bit of summer sunshine all together. But that's not what's happening and that's fine. I'm going to go and sing and I'm sure it'll be really lovely when I get there. And it's been a very strange week. I'm sure it's the same for you. Obviously, we had not wholly unexpected, but still sad news that the Queen died on Thursday. And I'm always a bit, there's always a slight out of body feeling for me when anything sort of massively historic happens. And you're aware that it's an historic moment while you're

living through it sort of any big news stories I have this thing sometimes where I can picture how it's written about in the textbooks for future history students um and I sort of picture the pictures that you know they're going to use alongside the the write-up about this period and, you know, the new king. And it's like slightly out of body. And obviously we've had lots of different emotions going on. I've been quite interested in who posts what online, if I'm honest. But I think mostly people have got the tone just right. You know, she was definitely very good at being the queen

and uh 96 years is a very long time to be alive let alone have such a long reign as queen for 70 years and i think you know you'd be hard pushed to find anybody that's living now that remembers life before that so you know it's a significant end of an era beginning of something new and I had to do a gig yesterday and I went on stage and I said to the crowd you know there are some times when you have a gig booked and you think it's doing a gig what everybody wants to hear but actually from my point of view uh music's always been a good tonic especially if i'm feeling a bit wobbly or i'm not really sure what happens next if there's a bit of uncertainty in the air see reference pandemic discos so actually doing a gig last night and being with a load of people and having our

hands in the air felt really nice actually it's comforting isn't it and uh yeah so ticket today i'll get a little bit more of that i guess when i sing later on and this week's podcast oh lovely connie huck and now connie and i we have um this really nice relationship where we always feel we're almost sort of related we're not it's just that we share blue peter but blue peter is being part of our lives is quite a well i've always referred to as blue peter i always think of it as like my sibling um because i was an only child till i was eight and my mum was presenting blue peter from when i was four to when i was eight so for that part of my life, Blue Peter was the other person. Oh, golly, very noisy motorbike.

Blue Peter was like the sibling I didn't have. You know, it was like she'd go off and do Blue Peter and I'd watch it. And so my friends would watch it. And it was this really big presence. And then obviously Connie presented Blue Peter and was in fact the longest serving serving um presenter of Blue Peter so you know we had lots to talk about with that but also I love seeing Connie she always makes me laugh we always have really good chats that go from you know lightweight to really putting the world to rights and so it was a complete joy to sit down with her and just do all of that over again but recorded um yeah so i think

you're going to enjoy this conversation and it's going to take you on a little roller coaster because i think honey's very smart and i think our brain works a million miles an hour and goes all over the shop which i love so we had a very bouncy, fun conversation. And hopefully lots of things that will make you think. And I feel like, can you hear that little voice getting nearer? He's been up since half five today. Half five. Do you ever have that thing where you get woken up early if you have a small person in your life and they wake you up early

and you just feel like that sense of no one's coming to rescue me. This is just what time my day began and now I've just got to ride it out. That's how I felt today. So after the gig last night, I didn't go to bed till about, what time was it? Must have been about one. And then, yeah, about 5.30. Oh, and here's Richard. He's coming to check on me.

I'm just doing the introduction for the podcast. Honestly, I cannot get any flipping quiet in this house. There's nowhere I can go. I feel like I have a massive magnet in my pocket and people just find me. Anyway, I'm not complaining. I'm just a tired person. And I'm very excited to have the energy of Connie's chat to lift me out of my slightly weary state all right let's love see another side well nice to see you Connie um we've already been chatting so much already what we covered already technology um modern life yeah good the bad the ugly and everything in between basically um in a nutshell yeah uh we've also covered how uh you you were

saying you think you've sort of got the first seven years of raising your child like that's the bit where you're really like helping to shape the children and then then after that, it's just a matter of, you know, dealing with the fallout of all the bits you got wrong and then the therapy they'll be in from when they're 30. So which makes me, I always, whenever people say that thing about show me a child of seven and I'll show you a man, I just feel like, can't have a bit longer, please. Yeah, I know, it's not fair on us parents, is it?

It's ridiculous that we've only got this, less than a decade to shape the adults that we'll become. But I don't think we actually realize do we till you're maybe in your 30s that like that weird thing you do that mannerism the way you're funny when it comes to such and such situation all of it comes from your upbringing so much so and I think in families there's certain things that are celebrated and certain things that aren't that go a bit more under the radar. And those things, those characters, what's brought out of people. Like, for example, in my house, I've realised,

and I realised this big time in lockdown because it was very annoying, that I'd always praised a little bit of anarchy and being a little bit silly as well. So when it came to trying to do homeschooling, those things came back to bite me quite considerably I can so relate to I think that was the worst part of lockdown for me homeschooling and you think oh you know I was like oh I've been a blue peter possess for all those years I'll be fine but it was just a nightmare it was horrible I hated it and for you I can only imagine with

five and they're all doing different stuff and yeah I felt like I'd just taken off more than I could chew where basically I was like what what was I thinking having so many children I thought I'd been so you know clever and yes great and I was like whoa I don't know if I could actually deal with the spectrum. But, well, yeah, we obviously have our, we're sort of related by Blue Peter. I know. I do feel like, it's like a sort of weird. Cousins or something. It is like that, isn't it?

It's like we're family. And even, you know, when your mum just rang you earlier, it's like, oh, I just saw her the other day. But, yeah, it is like that. I do think in a weird way, sort of the world of media and show business is like this extended weird not quite family I'd say Blue Peter is family I'd say we're family we're cousins yeah but it's this weird sort of thing isn't it where you're all sort of enforced upon each other now and then and lots lots of people you like, some people you might not quite click with as much,

but your paths will cross. And everyone else's paths will cross. So it's kind of like six degrees of separation, but only it's sort of three degrees or two sometimes. It's a bit weird, isn't it? What are your memories now, looking back of your sort of Blue Peter years? Do you think about it much at all?

Does it cross your mind? You know what? so I don't know whether you feel this but now so I'm in my mid to late 40s now and actually sometimes I look back at things and I almost think like it's almost like that was another person it's so long ago and there's so much crammed in our brains now I remember when I got to what I sort of think of as the tipping point where I would say that I used to just remember everything. I didn't even need to write things down. I've never been a big sort of diary person for appointments and things like that.

I used to keep everything in my head and there came that sort of time where I realised that actually it's got to the point where there's so much stuff in my head that I am forgetting that face or that I've done this thing. And if you think about the fact that on Blue Peter, we were filming five shows a week at a certain point. So when the CBBC channel came in, we were doing two shows on digital on the Tuesday and the Thursday

and then Monday, Wednesday and Friday, we were on Terrestrial. Wow. And so the amount of stuff Thursday and then Monday, Wednesday and Friday, we were on Terrestrial. Wow. And so the amount of stuff that we were doing, it got to the point where I remember I went to Woburn Abbey with, so this is years later, with the kids. And then somebody at Woburn Abbey was saying, oh, do you remember when you came and you filmed? And actually we had only filmed links.

So we'd filmed some links, me and one of the other presenters, to link another sort of show together and i literally had no recollection of it and they really had to jog my memory and then i did sort of i vaguely remember that and i thought when is the time you know there's all these things that are just continually dropping out of our brains yeah and actually you almost need your memory jogged on stuff to keep renewing, you know, keep that sort of channel alive in your brain, that pathway. And now, I guess it's only, you know, I did over 10 years on that program and there's loads of standout times and loads of memories. You can't hold on to every bit of information. But yeah, you can.

You absolutely can. That's exactly it. And also, so there's so many, you do so many brilliant things. But it's almost like, you know, you're spoiled. And, you know, that's probably why I never wanted to leave. Because every day was just so fun. It was just mad. Oh, that's really lovely, though, that you remember it as being really fun.

But going up to five shows a week is a lot. I know. Because I think my mum did two. Two shows a week. Yeah, so I always call it blue peter years. So I always say, like, dog years years, Blue Peter years aren't normal. So I don't know if you, I don't know, have a relationship or if you, I don't know, you take up doing that hobby

for three years or something, it's Blue Peter years. So it's different because the time just flies by. Yeah. And you're doing so much other stuff in that time. It's not like you can put yourself into anything else 100% really As the daughter of someone that was doing Blue Peter when I was little, people were

constantly making links between what my mum was doing on Blue Peter and the sort of childhood they thought I was having so there's been lots of times when people say, oh does your mum come and do makes with you or something because I suppose the whole relationship that people form with the presenters when they're growing up, they have that sort of, I always felt like Blue Peter presenters were sort of like

the, you know, like young parent type role. Yes, yeah. Not quite older sibling, actually. It was like a young parent that kind of was guiding you. I think over the years it's changed. Yeah, I agree with that too. I think it used to be, so, you know, I used to watch people like Tony Hart or Valerie... Well, I didn't quite watch Valerie Singleton,

but back in the day people would watch Valerie Singleton and they felt much more mature, didn't they? Yes, and then I agree with you that it changed to being the most older sibling. Then it's like fun aunt and then it's like young parent and then it's like older sibling. You're absolutely right. Do you think there are any connections

between the skill set you got from the show and parenting? Yeah, you know what? I genuinely love crafting, upcycling, making stuff, like all of that. And my youngest son loves, like he'll literally engineer stuff out of cardboard boxes with hinges and sort of like make you know on world book day i'll just be like oh just you know just dress up in green or something

and be robin or you know something really basic um and he will actually put a costume together and make it of his own volition and it will sort of be 3d and really good and actually quite impressive not like it's just sort of made by an eight-year-old which he is essentially so he's really got that knack and i quite enjoy doing stuff like that i love that too actually i love crafty things yeah i like all of it like i you know i do i don't know we'll sew stuff or we'll, you know, all of that creating stuff. Whereas my oldest son, I think he takes after dad more. And he's sort of, he's much more into sort of coding and computers and stuff like that. And I'm always saying actually that, you know, Charlie's digital and I'm very analogue, you know. So if something was made out of clockwork, that would be fine for me.

You know, when my phone has like, you know an ios update i'm always like oh no i won't know how to use it anymore oh yeah that feeling like oh no they've moved everything around yeah why did they do that i'm very much of it ain't broke why i like the old one yeah exactly that well i know that um for my mum she actually trained as an actress and then ended up presenting, sort of slightly fell into it. What was your path to it? So basically, so I've always, like growing up, I was always really torn between sort of the arts and the sciences, you could say.

Is that the case in your family as well? Because you're the youngest of three, is that right? I'm the youngest of three and my parents came over in the 60s and as with a lot of um parents that come over from sort of countries like bangladesh they want to give you a good education and you know so they wanted and actually you know from their background the revered professions essentially were like sort of doctor accountant engineer you know these sort of sciencey stem things it seems very glamorous and you've made it if you're any of those things and then you know we came over here and they're you know here it's glamorous to be you know fashion model or singer or on telly or actress or whatever um and i always liked sort of performing so i was in

my local theater group like questor's theater in ealing growing i used to like doing acting lessons there and at school as well i did my drama guild hall grades but it was always very much a sort of hobby um and so i was doing like all science, the A-levels, maths, physics, chemistry, further maths as well. But I was in the National Youth Music Theatre and I still loved enjoying all that stuff. And auditions were advertised in timeout for TV presenters. So me and my sisters all went along. But I was doing A-levels at that point. But I'd already done my maths A-level because I had just finished the first year of sixth form.

And basically, I kept getting... I wasn't expecting to get this job. It was just sort of for a fun day out. But you said you were assisted. Did they all audition as well? Yeah, all three of us. Well, it was open auditions. This is like...

So this is how old we are. This is going back to, what, the early 90s. And these open auditions advertised in Time Out were for a cable and satellite pop music programme. But this is before, you know, we had many digital channels. This is in the days of like BSkyB, if you remember. So going way back. So I was just going for fun,

which is probably why I ended up getting this job because I wasn't really yeah trying too much yeah exactly and so I had told them when I filled out the forms that I was unemployed and that I'd left school which considering I looked about three years old back then it's amazing that they actually believed that but anyway um so basically i obviously i really wanted to do this job but then i was still at school and i had quite a cool head of sixth form who's incidentally john sargent's wife which is just a coincidence but anyway so mrs sargent she was like well this would look really good on your aquaform. She managed to wangle it, so I dropped further maths,

and I'd already done maths A-level. So I just had to do physics and chemistry in my second year of A-level. So I had all these free periods, and they got me a pager. Because this is sort of pre even mobile phones, or mobile phones were like a brick. Oh, definitely. A huge brick that was in a leather briefcase. That was a bit of a novelty if you knew someone with a mobile.

Yeah. I remember those days, Connie. Exactly. This is, oh my gosh, we're showing our age here. So they got me a bleeper, not even a pager, and I would be bleeped, and then they would tell me, and I was like the roving reporter, so they gave me a job on it where I didn't have to present full-time but I was like

a roving reporter but I was also a presenter in the studio but I only had to record my links every Thursday evening after school and then I could do the reporting sort of in my free periods because I was only doing two subjects by then um so it's. I interviewed like Take That and East 17 and The Farm. And it was, you know, it was really fun. And, you know, it helped my kudos as well at school. You know, it was really surreal, actually. But, you know, by then, obviously, I'd got the telly bug, because it was like, this would be good to do for a living. And so I did go to uni, but I didn't do sciences. I just, I did economics to have a sort of degree to fall back on. And then after uni, then I got the Blue Peter job.

So, yeah, so I sort of, yeah. Do you think it helped that you were the youngest of the three that did the thing that was, I mean, as you say, like the prized careers were sort of in... Yes, so in the sciences. No, you're absolutely right. And I think it helped that I mean, as you say, like the prized careers were sort of in... Yes. So in the sciences. No, you're absolutely right. And I think it helped that I went and did the degree in economics. You had that to fall back on.

Yeah, exactly. You had an employable skill. And it also helped that, you know, the remuneration that I was getting at quite a young age was kind of quite good for, you know, someone that's only 16 years old or whatever. of quite good for you know someone that's only 16 years old or whatever so um and also blue peter is a really sort of respectable job it's something your parents can be proud of yeah it's got his heritage yes sure isn't it wasn't like i was i don't know doing qvc or something i don't know i mean i'm not saying that qvc is bad in any way but my parents were sort of like, you know, really up for it, essentially. So it helped. Yeah, so it was a recognised, solid brand of TV.

Yes, for the BBC. The BBC, yes. Exactly, all of that stuff. So, yeah, that is how I got the gig, I guess. And then, yeah, that gig lasted for ages because, like I say, I'm quite happy with stability. I'm one of these... Or if I'm quite happy with stability I'm one of these or if I'm you know I like to you know I don't I you know I was so happy on that show well I messed that up I guess yeah yeah no no and if you said before if it ain't work don't fix it and if it's something's

working for you and you're having a lovely time and engaged there's no point to move on and there's stuff happening I always think as well it's really suited to me because i love lots of different things yes um and i'm interested in lots of different things but i'm also quite flighty um so you know i i want to do a bit of everything but not necessarily anything in major depth if that makes sense which is the perfect job for a blue peter presenter because you're doing all these different things um but you're sort of having a go at them yeah and you don't have to be amazing at them you know and people often think you're really sporty if you're a blue peter presenter and i'm not and what's good is that i'm quite good at sport until stamina is necessary you know like a tennis if i'm playing tennis i'm quite good at sport until stamina is necessary. You know, like tennis, if I'm playing tennis,

I'm quite good for maybe one game, but then I can't run for the ball anymore quite quickly, you know. So actually it's quite good for filming where you have to just sort of get a certain amount in a certain amount of time. Sounds perfect. Yeah, perfect for you. Also, I think what you're talking about there

is being curious about lots of things and having that thirst for knowledge and information. Yes. Shows blue peter are perfect for that because they'll be like are you interested in this you know you go well yes i am actually yeah up to a point show me what you know and i'll see how much further i want to take it i'm sort of interested in everything up to a point if i could fast forward a little i wondered if you always wanted to have children was that something you saw i did i always wanted to have kids um and actually I always thought I'd have three kids and then um and then I had two and I was like I'm done now or I either thought that right I'll now get another boy uh but actually I'm really glad that I have two boys now because I mean obviously all parents are glad with what

they have I couldn't imagine it any other way but weirdly charlie didn't think he'd ever want kids um he didn't think he was a having kid kind of person so when we got together i was like well if you're not having kid kind of person then then we're not compatible um but actually it turns out he was a having kid kind of person now he's really good with kids, actually, which you might not think if you just have seen him on the telly and you've seen his sort of miserable alter ego. But he's, yeah, he's a lamb in wolf's clothing, I think. But didn't you get together and get married very swiftly? Yes, we did.

So did those conversations about starting a family happen within that swiftly yeah because right so I was probably I was mid-30s and it's that you know when you're in your mid-30s with the body clock ticking obviously you you're sort of thinking I don't want to just be in another relationship that doesn't go anywhere um I just you know now I'm ready for the real deal or whatever um and so yeah quite quickly it was like yeah my way or the highway so which is good because then you know if someone's really committed maybe i don't know either that was all within him into it and he's living a lie i don't know but he's doing well with living the lie he's convinced me that he's enjoying the ride um yeah i think i think really he sort of i don't know i think maybe it was just an overhang from sort of being

young and in london he grew up in oxfordshire in a village and he sort of moved to london and was sort of doing his thing and actually, he hadn't sort of thought about maybe the longer term and kids, maybe. But I'm still quite impressed because I think, is it right that you got together and then got married within nine months? Yeah. So it's quite a lot of conversation. That is quick.

Yes, no, but literally, because I think I just knew, I was literally like, okay, I'm, this can only, you know, we can, there's no point in us being together unless you're sure you definitely want to have kids and quite quickly as well um but yeah no he was up for all that because you know sometimes you have to and actually if that had scared him off then he wasn't the right person you know I do think there's this thing where you know people if a relationship breaks up or whatever and then people are often like oh no but you know that would have been so good they're not the same person that you got together with that because this person doesn't

want to be with you if they've gone you know and then they don't have good taste essentially because the person you got together with wants to be with you and whether they've changed or whatever's happened something's changed in them or whether you've changed it doesn't matter because the person you want to be with is a is not them something's yeah gone wrong and that's the sort of thing that your friend can see from the outside looking in but when you're in it you can't see it no that's the thing it's a sort of bit of the delusional side i can change exactly exactly but that that whole thing of like no no there's a there's a gap there and you're filling the gap with what you want rather than the reality yeah and lots of i think women in particular you can often mold or you often are sort of people pleasing

so too too much sometimes in a real well you can do that in a relationship to sort of fit in or please the other person. I think we're more... I mean, this could be contentious, but I'd say we are naturally more likely to be people pleasers. Oh, no, I don't think that's contentious. I think that's an overhang of, like, we've had, you know, centuries of that. That's the dynamic that's been long long established and part of the whole and we're naturally more empathetic and i think it's partly

to do with that as well we want you know everything to pan out well and harmony within a group and all of that stuff yeah but again there's certain ideals that are imposed from very early age with the way we raise girls to boys that still need a bit of a rejig in terms of as you said like the nurture and aspect but we're also encouraged to think that if you're a little girl you're going to want to play with the baby doll and look after that doll and it's like you know all those sorts of things stereotypes yeah i think there's a lot fed in from the get-go yes there, there is. And I don't know if you feel it as a mother of sons, but I was very aware of that when I had my first in terms of messaging on T-shirts and things like that.

Yeah. I remember as a kid growing up, I wasn't a very girly girl. And in fact, I wanted to be a boy. I was just like a real tomboy. And, you know, I was brought up sort of wearing trousers the whole time anyway um and often hand-me-downs from my elder sisters and I did have a short boy cut as well now when I come to think of it but um I now yeah I look at my two sons um and actually you know and you bring them up the same don't you and they turn out so

so ridiculously differently like i'm saying the younger one is really sort of creative and he's like totally can sort of focus on something and sit and invest in something the other one he's kind of unless he's really really into something he doesn't want to have a go he doesn't want to fail at stuff he's a lot more um he's a lot more anxious about stuff as well and i don't know whether that's you know that's can sometimes be an older child thing because they're sort of yeah definitely paving the way and i was the youngest so i think i've always you know the youngest of three i've been quite secure always. And I think naturally quite confident. But, yeah, I don't know.

I do feel, weirdly, I feel I went through my most sort of girly phase, actually, in my, probably in my late teens, early 20s. And then I think when you get to sort of your late 30s, 40s, you're very secure in who you are. Yeah. And you're just so happy in your own skin that you don't need to people-please as much anymore.

Yeah, yeah, a lot of it falls away, doesn't it? Which is just so liberating. Oh, my goodness. It's brilliant. Yeah. I don't miss that coat at all. No, me neither. Although sometimes I find I've put it back on by accident

and I have to take it off again. Yeah, and that's probably because society makes you put it on at times. Yeah, and I think also old habits. When I turned 40, I was like, that's what this decade's going to be. I'm going to try and be more unapologetic. I think it's starting to settle in. It takes a little bit of habit-breaking, I think, but it's starting to settle in, which is good.

It's a nice feeling, I think. It is nice, isn't it? Yeah, I really like it. So what was happening in your life when you first had your first baby then so your your kids eight and ten now yeah so my kids are eight and ten so um I had so I'd been doing actually uh so me and Charlie we decided to get lots of traveling out of the way like I said so in my mid-30s i was thinking oh gosh you know this needs to be for the long haul now um any relationship or i need to get it out of the way quickly so i can find the one that is for the long haul and so after we got so we got married

we got married in vegas and we did a road trip around Vegas not around Vegas around America I'd be a small road trip and then we went to we went to Mexico we went to Australia we went to Japan we went to India so we went to Japan. We went to India. So we did loads and loads of travelling. Over how long? How long was that trip? So not over that long. So we went on different trips, sort of in between work. And then I'd say, so I probably had Kovey, who's my 10-year-old.

I probably had him within two years. So we did all of that traveling and actually i think i then was doing a lonely planet series um in china so i went off to china and i was there for like two months or something in china wow yeah it was mad it was mad actually china is just crazy. In one place or moving all around? Moving all around. God, extraordinary.

Yes, extraordinary. Because weirdly, China is quite a culture shock. Yeah. Because, you know, even someone like Japan, you know, and I have been, I remember actually being lost in Japan before once when I'd been on a filming trip in Kyoto. And actually, I was quite terrified because it's quite easy not to find someone that speaks English yeah but I'd say Japan has a lot

more you know it's a lot feels a lot more westernized and you can eventually find maybe a sign with English written on or if not a policeman that might speak English um whereas China culturally it's really weird there's a lot of them i remember buildings just almost going up overnight in cities there's a lot of development but then the countryside is so rural and it's and even in the cities there's lots of sort of real elements that feel like you've been transported back to sort of the olden days essentially um and i i remember as well actually um you know going i i actually came back sort of really vegetarian and in fact i was so thin after i came back from china i remember a lot of the food had

msg and you could sort of see crystals of it and that was when there was sort of after there had been like a sort of scare over like whether msg is bad to have but also the thing of like things like you can buy bags of chicken claws which they like crisps and sort of lots of places with tanks full of sort of living sea creatures and lots of sort of because of the language barrier thing unidentified me i wouldn't know what i'm actually eating um and even where there was english i remember seeing menus where it's like sort of like fried fallopian tube or you know sort of esophagus yeah and i would think esophagus of what you know i've got i've still got photos in my phone actually because

i just became this ongoing thing that weird would text, like these funny things like off menus, like super pig stomach and weird stuff like that. But anyway, so I think I got pregnant straight after that trip, actually, after I came back from that trip. After the fried fallopian tubes. Yeah, maybe it makes you really fertile. I don't know. Maybe that is a byproduct of fallopian tubes. Yeah, maybe it makes you really fertile. I don't know, maybe that is a by-product of fallopian tubes,

although I don't think I did. I was vegetarian by then, so I didn't have the... I was literally, some places we'd go, because we were filming quite rural places, and so I'd literally just be, anything that sort of looks leafy and green-steamed, I'll just eat that, because I was so like, you know, and the food was so

varied i feel like i'm being a real food snob now but actually i don't eat pork anyway and uh i yeah i um you know it's good anyway for climate change no but i think also when you go somewhere like china if you've never been before the the first few ways the culture shock really hits you is getting yourself something to eat somewhere new. Yeah. Because it makes you realise how, you know, when all the familiar places are taken away and you're like, okay, which way's up?

Because you haven't worked anything out yet. You don't know what you like. You know, if the cuisine is really different. That's it. And also, it's a production company. So the show was for Lonely Planet and they had their own production company. So the show was for Lonely Planet and they had their own production company. I think it was for Discovery Channel team out of Singapore.

So I hadn't met any of the people I was with before I did the trip. So like you're saying, any home comfort is kind of comforting because I didn't know any of them and everyone was from, you know, the sound guy was from Australia and it felt like we had all just assembled for this thing from everywhere around the world, essentially. So I guess, and that was a good sort of, I say a trip to go out on,

but then for motherhood, I was very adamant that, you know, I kind of did want to do as much mothering as possible so I still do you know like today after this I'll go and do a pickup I still do quite a lot of drop-offs and pickups like the majority of them um well I remember thinking you know I can do it all I'm gonna be super mom And I did this show for Sky called King of the Nerds. And I had a five-month-old baby. And I was like, I'm not overnighting. So they were like, no, that's fine. You can get a car to Chelmsford every morning at 5am or whatever.

And so literally I'd wake up and express milk. I'd wake up and express milk. And then get into my car before the baby had woken up. And then go and film this thing in chancel it's one of those shows sort of like the apprentice or um i don't know next top model or one of those where you have two teams and essentially they are battling it out to win some sort of prize like an activity where they go i don't know laser questing whatever and then the losing team have to lick their wounds in the mansion

and someone gets voted off, which means that really you only need a presenter for the links and comparing the challenge and the rest is actuality. And so I remember I'd get there really early and I'd be willing for the show to wrap because I knew there was this window around sort of four o'clock where if I got on the a the a406 or whatever you know the road from Chelmsford that it would shave like an hour off my journey because

I wouldn't have rush hour to get back to my baby and also if I didn't shave that off my boobs would be exploding with milk in and it would be really painful and so then I realized I'm just doing everything terribly I'm a bad mother and I'm a bad TV presenter. So I'm going, yeah, let's, yeah, we've got that in the can. Let's move on to the next thing. So, so yeah, I guess that sort of all of that travel and getting all of that out of the way. And sort of, I think, I feel that my life has sort of been timed.

All the things that I've done have been timed quite well. So I've never really had any regrets but if you're someone that's always curious and liked all the sort of busyness so how how did you sort of find it when you're not filling your days with that excitement of those projects well yeah so I guess that really happened mainly for when so it because it does go quickly doesn't it um and I own so I guess I mean it feels like it went quickly now at the time I probably didn't think it went quickly um but yeah you're right because I didn't do while my kids were babies I didn't really do any work at all until they were in play group so that's what from my eldest one went to play group at about three or four so yeah what did I do in that time I guess I just watched lots and lots of Peppa Pig I guess I don't know I guess because that is when,

you know, Charlie writes from home a lot as well. And I had just as well co-written A Black Mirror. And so that had had its first series probably about that point. So there's always a lot sort of going on at home, it feels, where I feel like I felt like... That momentum was still around. Yeah, that momentum of there's always, you know, some rushes of something that we're watching or I don't know.

And then the babies keep you busy as well. And there's enough sort of going on that I think it went quick enough. And then I am a sort of like, I do like seeing people, people nearby though, you know. Yes. So that's, you build up this sort of network of mum for a new whole new land of friends and you have to sort of so not sort the wheat from the chaff but find out who the people are that are on your wavelength oh 100 which takes time in itself definitely you

can't you need more in common than just having a child the same age yeah absolutely otherwise the conversation stops quite quick doesn't it the same stuff on netflix or like liking the same music or something yeah Yeah, anything. Absolutely. So I guess, you know, and I am one of these people, my mantra is always set your standards low. So everything else is a bonus. So I do feel I'm quite easily pleased as a person.

So even though I did all that Blue Peter stuff, I do think I find sort of happiness or joy in really simple things as well so so as long as you've got like a focus to put things in you're kind of quite satisfied by that I think a lot of people I think we tend to do a lot in modern day societies you set these goals for yourself yeah and then you're continually disappointed if you don't reach that benchmark or if someone else does or whatever whereas I'm'm like, I don't want to ever set, probably it's that, maybe it's a fear of failure thing. I don't want to set those goals or I'll set my goals really low and then anything else is a bonus.

And that means that I always achieve my low goals, but then I'm always really happy as well, I guess. I think that's a good way to live. Yeah. I think that's actually, well, we've been speaking, before we even started recording, we were talking a lot about happiness and things. And yeah, I think that's a good way to live. Yeah. I think that's actually, well, we've been speaking, before we even started recording, we were talking a lot about happiness and things.

And yeah, I think... There's a lot of pressure, isn't there now, to sort of be happy, but happy shouldn't be a pressure. It's just an innate organic thing. And I think what it feels like, it's not an innate internal organic thing. It comes from exterior stuff.

And so then you're putting your, you're setting your goals too high and putting all your eggs in one basket often yeah or there's even a pressure of how to achieve the happy that you don't get from external things by you know i don't know mindfulness or meditation and i don't know about you but that doesn't come easy to me at all so i have to give myself permission to find it other ways yes I do I literally so my mindfulness will come from I just love like and I'm not I wouldn't say I'm a gardener I don't know much about gardening but I'll mow our lawn and hack like we have loads like you actually you can't see our garden wall at all because of the greenery and I love that yeah it's like an oasis yeah I love that I can't see sort of brick wall or anything you know I get obsessed with that too

actually yeah I like trying to frame a window so all I see is green yeah that makes me really happy it's really nice actually we've currently got next-door neighbours that are trying to want to put up a new wall and we're like oh but we'll lose all our ivy but the point being um that sometimes I will literally just hack you know the bushes back or the ivy or something or just clear a space and I don't know put a bird table there or whatever it is and that I find that's my mindfulness and even like something like hoovering or cleaning something is my mindfulness and i'll often do this thing so where as you know i said i like doing things in um but maybe not necessarily much that i will sometimes like i'll mow the lawn and then i'll get to halfway or get to you know a certain point i think i'm getting a

bit bored of this now so i'll leave a really neat line and the kids sort of have a swing set thing at the end anyway so it looks sort of like if i put a neat line that's the sort of have a swing set thing at the end anyway. So it looks sort of like, if I put a neat line, that's the sort of wild mature bit with the swings in. So it still looks good to the eye. And then I'll go and do something else. Right. And then when I get bored of that, I'll finish mowing the lawn. You know, so I'll do things in stages where I can leave it left where it's not sort of all chaotic and half done.

Like, I don't know, if I'm tidying up. When you come back to it you're like okay yeah now I'll do this next I'll do the second shelf I'll tidy the second shelf now I've tidied the first half but I do I won't tidy the whole bookshelf I'll tidy shelf by shelf so that I can chop and change uh and so that is I kind of do that as mindfulness I do actually relate to a lot of that way thing but then how does that work when you're writing books? Because you've now done, is it three? So that works really well because weirdly,

I write all of my books on my phone. I read that. How are you doing that? You can see that they're all so... So how are you... Not even in word or notes. Because the weird thing is, so my books are a bit like my brain in that so the character in the books she has lots of she goes off on tangents a lot of the time yes

so before we go off on too much tangent the book is about the glasgow cookie yes and this the first book was it just sort of 2019 or yeah so that's right so the it. So basically, so a lot of what I do, remember I said I've got this science background, I did science A levels. Since Sting, Blue Peter, a lot of stuff I do is sort of science outreach because we have a load of young people sort of going into arts professions and other professions, but not into STEM. So we've fallen behind sort of our European counterparts

and we're lagging when it comes to STEM. So kind of the books, you could say bridget jones meets wimpy kid but they also this the the main character is quite sort of she's quite sciencey she's quite practical her mind is quite methodical um so what it is so it's bridget jones meets wimpy kid but and the narrative is everything that's happening to her um but then there's also illustrations which sort of comic street illustrations of what's going through her brain or the tangents she goes off on her flights of fancy essentially so weirdly i write the books are all written almost in chunks of 500 words each chapter is about 1500 words and then those are even split up more with these pictures as well yeah so it's kind of not like writing a sort of grown-up book where you have to have like you know have to sit down and do

you know however many thousand words it's actually I can sometimes and I could sometimes almost think of something when I'm in a doctor's waiting room or something and that comes in my head and I'm like that's a funny observation so I'll go back and just sew it in on my phone weirdly so a lot of the staff uh so she sees the absurd in everyday life um so just I don't know as an example if she's thinking i don't know just say if i see someone um and i don't know they are i don't know just say for an example somebody's doing the school run and they're in really high heels or something and then she might then go off on a flight of fancy like i wonder how high heels became a thing because they look really uncomfortable but and they only add a few centimeters but then maybe you know i i'm just giving this as an example i can't think of a yeah you know just yeah so she'll be there's so many

better examples of this okay i'll give you an example in the book at one point the teacher says she's going to make some announcements and then the teacher says okay everyone settle down i've got some announcements to make and then literally she says okay everyone settle down i've got some announcements to make and then literally she says i don't know library fines have doubled to two pounds and lost property has now moved next door to the office and then cookie is saying that's not an announcement why didn't she just say it you know to me an announcement is i'm pregnant or i'm getting married and so then there's a cartoon picture of someone that's pregnant saying I've got an announcement to make and then the the person says what is it and then she says I'm wearing grey socks and he says oh okay I'm off to get married now bye you know so

it's just little sort of observations so fun that are this yeah so it's all funny things so if you think of it that might have come to me not while I'm writing that bit of the story or you know so I'm always continually going back sort of sewing in pictures or funny observations or comic strips so so and the actual writing I just can do it on my phone I can be in the garden or I can be upstairs or I can literally be like oh I just I don't know had to record a voiceover in town. And there's no point in going back home because school pickup is in half a second. I'm sat in the car and I've got like half an hour to kill

or 20 minutes or whatever. So I can, I'll write a couple of paragraphs then and then. Weirdly, because of the way her mind works, it kind of works really well. Yeah. Writing in that frenetic way with the style of the book. So what is your relationship with her? What's it like to create a protagonist?

So I would say, so she is, I guess, like a version of me that's highly caricatured. Because obviously, if I was just writing about me growing up, it would probably be really boring. So everything's a bit heightened. So she's got that Bridget Jones element of like chaos follows her about or everything's a catastrophe. But, you know, we were chatting before and I was saying everyone gets that thing of imposter syndrome where you just think I'm just going through life, blagging it or bluffing it. When will I be found out? So she will have sort of internal tussles like that and then she'll say no i can do this and then she'll blurt something out where she

sort of goes too far or screws it up she's overly confident or whatever yeah um and and so it's kind of like i might have that thought in my head but i might not necessarily blurt it out i might she's like me but dialed down yeah you see what i mean and also to get sort of funny things happening like set pieces it often needs to go because there's no magic in it there's no witches and wizards or there's nothing fantastical it's literally about a kid that goes to school and falls out with her friends and makes up with them yeah so you need something to be interesting you know so there will be things so that go wrong for instance like she has a science experiment that might explode and whatever where i might

have had an experiment that went wrong but it wouldn't necessarily drench me and you know but everything is based on real stuff so for instance in book one she goes on a quiz show to represent her school and i did go on blockbusters to represent my school i got nothing right well i got i only managed to buzz in on two questions which are the two questions she got asked what b is to cast a spell and i said to bind a spell and the answer was bewitch apparently and then oh uh i think bind is a great answer yes i know i think i should have got that and then we would have actually won if i had got that anyway um and then i also got and she gets asked these same questions so i'm obviously exercising my demons what p is clear i didn't buzz in because in blood cells and i knew plasma

but we'd been taught it's yellow straw colored plasma they said it was anyway so anyway the point being she goes on a quiz show and gets no questions right and then for instance in book two for instance which is all to do with saving the planet and being eco they join this forest club and they go on this camping trip and she has to go on this zip wire and i had to do that with the royal marines when i went training on the royal means training course and i've got tiny hands and you have to clutch. They don't have safety harnesses. Thank goodness I do.

You have to clutch around this thing, this rope thing called a strop. And I couldn't actually get purchase round it to grip properly. And I think this Sergeant Major guy just thought I'm making excuses because I'm scared. I don't actually have a problem with heights or anything like that.

It was just literally, I don't think I'll be able to hang. My tiny hands can't grip. And he's like, oh, you'll be fine. And he just like pushed me out. And I actually fall off this thing and I'm hanging like a ragdoll. It's actually on YouTube.

I watch it now and I laugh because it is hilarious. And you can hear me on my mic going, it's like I'm dying. Anyway, Cookie has the same thing. I have small hands too. I shouldn't do that. Yeah, don't do that.

They do it without, it's called the Wilmines Death Slide slide they do it without uh it's called the will means death right they do it without a safety harness but they're marines i know small-handed people like us need to be protected um so that happens and then like for instance in the last book there's a bit where she's doing this show at school and she comes off stage and her mic's still on and she's blurting out all this stuff to her friend and everyone's listening to it and that i mean you'll know that's happened so many times in telly where people come off air and their mic is so so everything is built around real things that have actually happened but it sounds like you really

love i really enjoyed it's really good fun i just love thinking the up the gags and the yeah and also what would she do in this situation how would her mind work or what's the tangent she goes off on or the point that she misses in this yeah I really enjoyed writing it's a good space to go in your head as well I mean when I'm listening to you talk I've got I might be really wrong but I get this idea of like you and your husband and you have really exciting ways of thinking about the world and there's lots of curiosity and questioning and looking out and thinking about how things so how does that tessellate with the sort of traditional aspects of parenthood because a lot of it when you've become parents there's a lot of things probably terrible parents is how it does i mean i always say this thing of light i just remembered

how badly we're getting it uh wrong when one of our kids came into the kitchen and then went, Alexa, I mean, daddy. And I was like, oh no, this is terrible. What has happened? But, you know, Charlie, his dad used to sort of watch comedy with him from a young age and we love comedy. And I think my eldest has got a really weird sense of humor, which I think is quite like Charlie.

Like Charlie has got a really weird sense of humor which I think is quite like Charlie like Charlie has got a weird mind and so has Covey um and he's always sort of playing the fool or the entertainer um I mean I guess they and the youngest is always questioning stuff so I do I suppose like I don't know I think the same of your house because I think you know you've got five kids and you're both creatives and so it's kind of like never a dull moment I'd say probably in your house and in our house but then what house with kids ever has a dull moment I mean there's always some drama going on um I actually read um I think, I don't know if it was you or Charlie that said it,

and I found it really reassuring, and I thought, I actually, it said something like, I mean, this was obviously a while back, it said something like, our kids are six and eight, so they're basically a law unto themselves, so there's only so much we can do as parents

from this point onwards, and I thought, that's so brilliant, because actually that is true. Yeah. They become, they're their own people they do their own thing and I think it's especially now like parenthood is so spoken about and talked about methods of parenting so structured actually very suffocating absolutely right so if you think about it so I always say this thing of like when I was growing up my parents would literally I'd just fit in around

them and all of us all three of us and all people growing up in our generation we'd all fit around our parents would be dragged where they were going we'd do what they did you know we'd have to amuse ourselves you know the amount of times I remember sitting outside so they would go to macro I don't know if you know yeah but you weren't allowed in till you were 12 and so there was this car park full of cars of just kids sitting in these cars waiting for their parents car and you'd be carted off to social services now if that happened but so you'd make your own entertainment you'd be sat in this car for like an hour and i spy would run out quite quickly or whatever so you'd make your own entertainment and similarly you know I remember being at parents friends houses and we'd be upstairs the kids would all just be hanging

around upstairs in the bedrooms or whatever and I'd end up falling asleep on a pile of coats you know on a double bed and my dad would pick me up asleep still off this pile of coats and you know I'd be put in the backseat of the car and then we'd get home and he'd just take my shoes off and shove me in bed and I'd wake up I'd be put in the backseat of the car and then we'd get home and he'd just take my shoes off and shove me in bed and I'd wake up the next morning still in the party dress or whatever. And, you know, now it's sort of like, you know, it's bath and bedtime at five o'clock

and they've got ballet at this time or whatever it is. Yeah. And it's like, we're all, you know, fitting in around them. And actually we turned out all right, I think, didn't we? And we've, you know, that entertainment in the car in in the car park of macro that we had to make for ourselves i feel like i was always being left in the car when i was a kid yeah that was a really common thing just wait here for a minute i've got to go do xyz yeah constantly just sat in the car whereas now you know if i

left my kid in the car he'd probably be screaming or crying or, you know, so they're totally, their brains are wired so differently, young kids today, from how ours were. Just from everything, the neural pathways, because of the fact that, you know, they have much more instant gratification because they're living in a time where everything is so sort of instantaneous. But also I think the emphasis on the parents to be the provider of everything the soul you know the one to equip them with all the life tools because you want to raise nice people here don't you couldn't handle their emotions and be kind to people and be ambitious

but the right level of ambition and happy with what they have but also you know striving for something it's like oh my it's all on on you to provide all those tools yes so when I read that quote I thought it's so I'm only one part of what's happening in their childhood I'm not like the absolute everything no I'm just the mum role a big part of our childhood was the surroundings of the macro car park or whatever yeah you know all of that stuff whereas it feels like people are just tiger parenting left right and center yeah and everything's so competitive down to i don't know birthday parties and goodie bags and tutoring and after school clubs and all of that stuff which we kind of didn't we weren't subjected to nearly half of it were we no no and quite happily not actually yeah i did wonder actually with you because your parents

you said they came over in bangladesh and like they made decisions to to give you a different childhood to the one they had what's the sort of what would be something that's a takeaway from that other people who haven't had that um have well weirdly so although I didn't have their childhood obviously you get influenced a lot by your parents so my mum she didn't even go to university or anything like that you know she would have dropped out of you know done she did sort of primary schooling essentially um and so she wasn't sort of educated my dad did go to university we came over well we came over i wasn't born then was i but they came over because he got a job with prudential um in hoban who were recruiting from abroad for people to be actuaries um essentially but then so if you think of it

she had sort of come and they they were from a village you know i went back with blue peter filming in the village really yeah that's what took you back that's the first time you've been there no i had been there so actually because you know as well when we were growing up Sophie I'm making us out like we're so old but I mean when we did pretty much the same age you think of it though yeah easy jets and stuff didn't exist cheap flights weren't a thing and so often we are from a different very different like standpoint for how modern life is yeah totally And so my parents sort of took us on a big family holiday to Bangladesh because, you know, that's a sort of long-haul flight. When I was about, I was 14,

and that was the first time I'd seen Bangladesh. And, you know, I went to the village. They hired a van and drove us all around. So we saw everything but you know i saw shanty towns you know and this there's this big one in the capital where literally kids and families are all living in shacks alongside a railway line and there's these kids and they're playing on the railway line you can google image it it's madness and then every now and then a train comes and everyone runs off the railway line it's just bonkers and we went back there filming on that very shantytown with blue peter when i got the job on blue peter and i do remember you know and i can speak a bit of frangooli and they were like you know stay for lunch stay for

dinner they were so like privileged that would come to film them they have nothing and they were sort of offering us everything and but they were really happy as well the kids were playing happily they were also smiling they just seemed so happy and the family that we were sort of hanging out with they seemed so happy and they you know they have nothing and yet they offer you everything but they seem happy um and you know over here and i don't know maybe it's not a case but it just feels to me now and maybe i'm noticing it more because I'm a parent of young children, but there seem to be sort of more and more friends I have whose kids have got anxiety or sort of have got, you know, need to go and see a therapist or whatever. being i don't know is and i could be wrong i don't know it seems that simple lifestyle i mean i mean they maybe they don't have the sort of privilege to be able to have them the mental issues of x y and z no you're right because they're sort of trying to feed themselves if you see what i mean or maybe that there's some messaging that's a bit overwhelming and And we've sort of, I mean, we do have a very consumerist culture.

There's lots of things that you're encouraged to feel you've got to do this, that, and the other to achieve things. And I know there's lots of things, probably mistakes I make about trying to work out what job they're going to do when they're older when they're really too little to really just know how they want to dress themselves or whatever. Because, you know, as parents, I think we all feel like that. And I'm like, really, if my kid is, I don't know, sweeping roads, but they're really happier,

that's much better than them being the CEO of a company, but they're unhappy. But I know that that's true. But in this environment that we're in, I still can't get my head around the fact that that's true. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because we're part of it too. We're sort of living that life and going, oh, actually this, I don't know,

I like going to that place for my coffee and this is how I do this. And you know why I think it is? I think it's because I might feel embarrassed to say, oh, my kid, they're really happy. They're really happy, but for a living, I don't know, they're cleaning poo my kid they're really happy they're really happy but for a living I don't know they're cleaning poo or whatever they're doing I don't know I'm trying to think of the the thing that most people would aspire not to do without insulting any job because any good job is a good job in its own right I don't want to be snobby against any job the specific no and I said

cleaning poo as a part as opposed to i don't know say i don't know being a carer or a road sweeper or any of those things because those things are actually really gratifying yeah which is like because pete and so it goes it goes back to the thing of it's really tickled me for sorry it goes back to the thing of if you're doing something like a profession which is like a caring profession it's a people people profession and actually when i went filming with the red cross to angola i remember i was like oh what i'm staying in the red cross house okay uh what there's no running water whatever it was so i was in this house in angola for two weeks and i was

like wow these people are amazing they give up their life to be an ngo worker and they get posted to this country and then they have to you know and there's loads of ngos the halo trust medicine frontier the red cross whatever and they're all living in these houses and they're so selfless and all of this stuff and i was like oh i could never do that they're amazing and actually after that two weeks weirdly I was like this is such fun and it's sort of like being in a student house with these insanely interesting people that have been I don't know shot at in Afghanistan or whatever they've just got all these adventures and they're having these sort of expat parties with other like-minded people um who are all from all around the world and everything and I actually really

loved it and then you come back into your bubble and even now I'm like oh I could never do that how do they do that but at the time I was like this is brilliant and it's that thing if you don't realize how brilliant you don't realize how something's brilliant till you're in it so if you're really insanely happy doing cleaning the poo to take it back to that my the base level because I'm a children's book writer and it's all about poo and we um but you know you actually when you're on the outside you're like oh I didn't want to do that I couldn't do that and you can't believe that you could ever be happy being on the inside but then when you're in the inside you're like I'm so happy here

yeah well I think it reminds me of um a conversation I had a really long time ago with an artist who lives around here, and she said that for her the key to mental well-being was to find a purpose bigger than herself, like find a cause bigger than herself. So once she was engaged in that, it took her up and out of her own noise in your brain sort of thing. Yeah, you're noticing, because it's a kind of, and I hesitate to say this but i do remember

sort of my mum sort of and you know there's nothing to poo poo therapy or any of that stuff but i remember when her mum died you know and she was really sad she cried for a couple of days or whatever and then you know she was sort of like okay business as usual or whatever and when i went to Angola with that Red Cross trip, I remember the Red Cross saying to me, look, every family has got one person dead or missing in Angola. You know, the mentality here is very different. And it's not that you don't care or whatever, but there's mouths to feed. So there's bigger fish to find. It's not that, you know, that of course you're sad if someone passes away or any trauma

you're sad about yeah but like you have to to some extent get it into perspective otherwise you wouldn't be able to carry on with your life whereas over here we don't necessarily need to because we could still carry on with our life if we're indulging in it if that makes sense because you know our problems are different we have a, and not to detract from the problems we have, but, you know, they're different. You know, we are often saying first world problems, aren't we? Yes. And it's kind of true,

because it doesn't mean that the hurt or the pain caused by that problem isn't real to that person, but it might be the same as the hurt and the pain of a bigger problem to someone elsewhere. Yeah. But you've magnified the pain in relation to the cause because we can, because we're living in a different set of circumstances, essentially. So to bring it back to your initial question, what was that, like, what did your parents sort of...

I wasn't remembering the initial question. Yeah, it was to do with that my parents lived a different life. No, you're right. And they came over and they brought me up here but what did i get from that yeah well that my mum would always say to me sort of like you know take less food on your plate and finish what's on your plate then take more but don't leave half of that stuff on the plate because where she had come from yeah that half stuff that you're scraping off into the bin that could have fed someone and kept them alive and so it gave me that perspective which means weirdly I think had I not had them as parents I think I'd be much more into consumer things because I'm totally lulled by those things

especially in my teenage years I definitely sort of was totally into those things but internally my wiring means that somehow I feel guilt on some level to sort of do too much expenditure and it's all to do with just how wide because we're only all selfish people so I because I don't want to feel that guilt or I don't you know I don't necessarily get you know make that extra purchase or whatever but we're all doing things to make ourselves happy and it's how we've been wired to feel happy definitely which needs to start at the naught to seven because you can't preach you can't like preach your values to other people because they're already wired by then so weirdly you know if people are saying uh jacob reese morg or boris johnson whatever whoever it is trump or what whoever the person is that

they don't agree with those people have just been wired differently and so they can't see it because their happiness and their sadness is dictated by a totally different set of values and that set of values isn't lesser or more because it's just to do with the pain that it causes mentally to them inside which means we need to rewire them from the beginning to make sure it correlates to things that merit it yes but it's not their fault if it's not correlated like that later on because it's too late if that makes sense that's kind of it's kind of like a bitter pill to swallow because it really means we can only solve the world's problems through kids and getting them right really early on because then if they

have that you know if their barometer is set right then if they are the president of america they will get their happiness by giving health care or if they're the ceo of a company they'll get their happiness by not increasing fat cat salaries but workers pay or whatever whatever they do they will have enough empathy and altruism and enough guilt or mental unhappiness by doing the wrong things to do the right things. Because at the end of the day, we only sort of do things to please ourselves because we are innately selfish.

Yeah. Just wish I could just go back to the beginning of my child raising and just do something a little bit different. No, but it's not on you. It's on your parents. Well, it isn't on't on your parents as we said it's on your environment yes so it's on the car in macro and it's on all of that environmental stuff yes it's on everything so it's not the parents it's not the teachers it's not the government it's everything all together including being in the car park in macro so the enorm enormity of that, how does that help you with your kids?

How are you implementing? Well, if I make sure, well, not make sure, but if I give them the values that I do think are right from that 0 to 7, then they'll do all the rest themselves. Because my parents gave me those values and I rebelled against it. I used to think, oh, mum, who cares if you have to scrape some food off or whatever? Or I don't care if I've got too many pairs of 501s.

I like it. And it's making me, all of that stuff. And you go through that. But like I say, when you revert later on to being happy in your own skin, you kind of weirdly revert a bit more to those values that your parents got instilled in you even though in your 20s or whatever you might i don't know take those drugs or do whatever it is

i do think you still always revert back fundamentally to the naught to seven values yeah so do you hear yourself and it might not be revert back some people might have kept that lifestyle from naught to seven all the way through, so they don't need to revert back. But do you feel, can you hear yourself saying the things your parents would have said then? Definitely. Like, definitely, I don't, I will tell my kids,

you know, you can have more if you eat that, you know, but don't put that and then scrape off half in the middle. You know, I definitely, my parents were so like, don't want things wasted ever. And I'm same i don't like wasting things i remember just stupid stuff like my mum you know a kitchen roll the square of yeah she'd sometimes that if there was some orange juice and it's just a little spot she'd rip off half and spot it rather than ripping off a whole one but the half was enough to get rid of it it's just like a dot of orange juice on the counter or whatever but at the time i think but i might do that now you know yeah something

because i think well then you know you've got double the amount of kitchen roll don't get me wrong if it's a big splot go for the whole sheet but just little things like that yeah at every level and it's that whole mentality of little things can make big differences if everyone does it. Yeah. But the problem is, is everyone doesn't do it because we've all been brought up differently. Yeah, so I suppose... But our kids are halfway there

because they're teaching all this stuff in schools of using less plastic and, like, walking instead of driving or whatever it is. So... The conversations are happening. Yeah, we didn't have that when we were growing up. No, no, no, definitely not. Yeah, and I'm probably only all like that

because my mum and dad were just like that because they grew up in an environment where you weren't wasting stuff because it was part of everything that they had surrounding them. It's interesting, isn't it? It's always so much to unpick and you start to look at it more closely as well as your kids get older

and then you think about the things you remember from when you were little and all that stuff and and it sounds so pious when you're saying it to someone that isn't of that mindset because it is because the values are totally different and it does look like oh you're being stingy but or you're being whatever with that kitchen roll but it isn't to do with stingy it's to do with valuing things and also knowing that if you can hold hands like it's what we were saying before actually before we started recording the podcast in our pre-podcast musings um that if you're in the middle you can reach a hand up to someone at the top and someone at the bottom and you're not out of touch with anything you can not be overawed at a mansion you cannot be snobby at a council flat or a shantytown

shack or whatever um but the spread of wealth is only getting higher at the top end because you can still get richer and richer and richer on every level but you can't get poorer than having nothing and so inequality is just getting crazy so if we can all just stick to being a bit in the middle, then we can reach people on both ends and we've got a chance. Whereas if it's going to spread to a bonkers scale, then suddenly you just can't relate to people that aren't in your sort of subset, essentially. Yeah. Which is really sad.

Because this has all really only happened since this post-war period exactly um yeah because before that sort of consumerism wasn't really you know we didn't have mass production so it's in a very short space of time and everything's going so fast it's going so fast and it's only getting faster and faster if you think for millions of years humans were hunters gatherers not changing much at all every new change leads to 10 more changes you know we learned to have settlements and then we could farm food on a bigger scale and we learned how to convert energy so we could have steam trains and travel places and now look we've got technology we've got the internet all of this stuff it's just moving at a bonkers pace and it

isn't sustainable with sort of climate change yeah and carbon footprint and the climate crisis, essentially. But hopefully, sorry kids, but you know it's a seven-year-old, so you can fix it all. Yeah. I've only got two in that category now, and I feel one of them I've nearly... It's just a six. You're running out of time.

When he comes home from school, I'm going to be like... Grandkids, we'll do it without grandkids. Yes, I could cover a few things yeah i might have left out um but you know it's just to cover it on a very sort of small level because it literally this is all my mindset is like this just because of sort of just really stupid things like not not being allowed to scrape food off into a bin or whatever but that's no But that stuff matters. It does matter. And I think it's amazing that when you've got all the big life experiences, there's things like that,

like that everyday thing, that that's actually what's really become part of your... And it's so... You're right, it's the little everyday things. Because something like, you could go to someone's house and, I don't know, they could have Fortnum and Mason ketchup

because we were discussing ketchup earlier in our pre-podcast hines or take it away yeah or you could have i don't know little ketchup right but if you're only used to going to the house with fortnum and mason ketchup then you're gonna be really you're gonna you you won't help but to go over their ketchups from little if that makes sense whereas if you're in the middle you know you can relate you can sort of like I say not go oh they've got Fortnum and Mason

you can sort of not be too overawed by that and not be snobby against the Lidl ketchup it's just ketchup it's squash tomatoes you know and actually you want a big part of the problem today is snobbery. And snobbery is awful because it makes us all want stuff

because we don't want to be judged. So I think a lot of when we're getting stuff to feel happy is because actually it's not even necessarily to please ourselves, it's the people looking at us being impressed by what we have and how nice our clothing or our holiday pictures are or whatever it is. So it's a weird one. So this seems like something that isn't just something you're passionate about,

but it's a very well-formed view of things. Is this something you're putting into projects? Can you see yourself putting this up somewhere? Sort of like, obviously, I'm an ambassador for q gardens and actually another climate change charity which is called mothers rise up which i guess is very kind of relevant to everything that we've been saying um and i do a lot of sort of stuff obviously around the books like events with kids where so the whole of cookie book two is all to do with sort of saving the planet um but you know i put it i try and put it into everything like even this podcast i guess i've put it into this somehow yeah but it's not you know i'd never be a politician or

anything i'd hate to be in politics my sister's in politics and i'm just like why would you do a thing like that um yeah i i i just try and put it in i mean i think i subconsciously put it into stuff because it is something that i care about yeah so in all of the cookie books you know i'm always saying they're not dumbing down because why dumb down intelligence up but then do it through humor and so that it's do it so it's an attractive prospect rather than education. You know, so... I think that's the way to do it, by sort of stealth. Yes, stealth.

Yeah. And I think I'm very reassured that if I have got some of this a little bit wrong already, at least your kids will be getting it right. I know you, and I know you well enough that I think your kids are going to turn out good it's such a long game but you know what like you said it's not on our shoulders

because it's everything that they're surrounded by you know you can't govern social media as a parent you can maybe go hey until a certain age maybe don't look at that website but look at this website or put some sort of parental controls but actually you know actually there's a program on radio Until a certain age, maybe don't look at that website, but look at this website or put some sort of parental controls.

But actually, you know, actually there's a programme on Radio 4 the other day, Social Injustice, but it's, you know, they were saying this very thing of even if you don't subscribe to it, it's so omnipresent, you're a part of it because you can't help it. It's the infrastructure we're in now. Yeah, very much. I feel like you and I could probably have this conversation

for like another four hours. Yeah, well, we already had four hours before we even started pressing the record button. So maybe we'll press the stop button. This is part one, we'll do part two. We'll do a spin-off podcast. Exactly, yeah, we will. Just do our own.

And another thing. Putting the world to rights. Oh, that's perfect. And another thing. And another thing. Sophie and Connie put the world to rights. Yeah. And another thing. Thank you thing. And another thing. Sophie and Connie put the world to rights. Yeah. And another thing.

Thank you for talking to me. Do you want to know something really funny? You said you're analogue and not digital, but I think you're the only person I've spoken to who has looked things up on their phone while we've been chatting. Oh, really? Okay. I beg to differ, Connie, actually.

In today's society, there is no analogue, unfortunately. No. It's too late. I love tech anyway. Bring it on. And, you know, like I said, oh, I was saying in the conversation before, and then we'll end this podcast.

You know, it's interactive. It's not like any kid that's on an app or on a game. As long as it's the right app or the right game, it's not just mindlessly watching, I don't know, YouTubers smashing up stuff. No. You know, so it's used in thelessly watching i don't know youtubers smashing up stuff no you know so it used in the right way tech is brilliant oh and not only that i think for what i would hope that other people raising young people would understand is that it is how the world is now so you know we see we still see things like ipads and stuff as a kind of luxury item but for kids

that's literally just how they access information and yeah there's a lot of stuff they come my children come out with things and i'm like how do you know that they go oh i watched something on this about it and i'm like brilliant good go forth and find it yeah there was a time when people thought books were the enemy exactly so it's just progress that's all progress exactly no i love it here's to here's to all that it's been so good to talk to you thank you we can keep chatting more after this as well let's do that okay press that

stop button and we'll go and carry on exactly ah that was good energy I actually genuinely feel more perked up now

and I mean isn't Connie great to listen to so many amazing thoughts going on. And I love her books, by the way. They're really gorgeous.

And the illustrations are gorgeous. And it's just got a real affection in the pages and wit. So if you haven't checked out the cookie books, go and have a look. But, yeah, lovely to chat to her as ever. And it was a really fun conversation conversation to record I really enjoyed it and I've got many more lovely conversations coming your way and I've now got a bag on the floor that I've got to zip up filled with my sparkly bits and my makeup and I am on my way to Norwich today and it's going to be a little bit strange because Richard was supposed to be coming with me

but he's got a job that he's got to go in the studio for today. So I'm going on my own. And the reason why that's odd is because he was going to do the cooking demo with me today. So I'm doing a festival called Foodies Fest. And a lot of festivals we've been doing in the summer, like Pub in the Park and Carfest, Richard and I have done a little cooking demonstration for our cookbook. And we like doing it together. And it means, you know, you get that nice chat between the two of us while we're prepping stuff well today I'm going on my own

but they'd already billed that I was doing the cooking so I've got a sort of stand-in husband um a chef who's already on site who's going to cook with me and probably that'd be really nice but just a little bit different oh sorry I sorry, I missed now. I can hear little Mickey's voice. Anyway, I'm off to Norwich. You're off doing whatever you're going to do. I hope you're feeling okay. And whatever your emotions have been stirred in you from this week and, you know, the Queen's, you know, sad death

and new beginnings with King Charles, King Charles III. That sounds pretty crazy, doesn't it? I hope you're doing okay. Because I know for some people, and I said this to my friend, the Queen, like, the last few pictures of her, she looked so like my granny. She looked so like Sybil Baxter, who died, she must have died three years ago now. I miss my granny. and it really reminded me of my granny and I do think that sometimes when, you know, the tone in the news is one of heaviness and grief and mourning and all these things are spoken about and we look reflecting on a life,

it makes you think about your own life, doesn't it, but also people you've lost. I think it's I think you'd have to I don't know how you'd avoid that that train of thought really so if that's been something that's been really hard for you and I'm sending you a hug and if you feel fancy free and you're not really thinking about it that is obviously fine too and on that note I'm gonna go off and cook some clown pasta and sing for the good people of Norwich. And I will see you next week. Bye for now. Thank you.