Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 75: Sarah Beeny

Episode Date: October 3, 2022

TV presenter and entrepreneur Sarah Beeny feels like the calm, confident, sensible friend we all could turn to when we’re having a wobble. She'd be logical and straightforward and sort us out. Perhaps she feels like this because she’s been on TV for a couple of decades now, guiding people through property projects and helping them to avoid disasters, pulling no punches along the way. Sarah talked to me from her home in Somerset about life in the country with her husband and four boys, and about her philosophy of making decisions and then not regretting them. She also talked about losing her mum when she was ten, and the effect that had on her and her brother. Finally we talked about Sarah’s recent breast cancer diagnosis and how she got her sons to cut her hair when it started to fall out. She is very grateful that her personal prognosis is good, and describes this as a blip! You won’t be surprised to hear that Sarah has a lot of post-blip plans - including a festival at her home in Somerset next year - I've already asked her to book me! Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis Bextor, it is produced by Claire Jones and post-production is by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing. It can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Good day to you. I am in my kitchen at home.

Just doing a very exciting job. I'm emptying the dishwasher. It's funny, isn't it, when you've got a dishwasher, that even those things become the chore, like emptying and loading it, even though definitely quicker than washing up. Mickey is currently watching YouTube Kids. Hi, Mickey. And showing me...

Oh, okay, cool. And showing me which Masha the Bear toys he would like. Because his... I'm talking to the people listening to my podcast. The people, the person listening to my podcast. I'm not saying there's only one of you, but chances are you're not listening to it in a group. It'd be quite weird though if after all this time

there was just literally one. Yes, Mickey. Yeah, you are. And we have been doing some lego this morning it's been nice richard's away so it's just me it's been away a week just me mashing the bear toy is very very cool so are i always yeah right i always say yes he's not really gonna get any of them but his consumerism as well and truly kicked in at these three. Mummy, can I see my sugar bars on the oven?

Yep, in a minute. I'm just going to finish this and then I will. I'm also baking a cake. Now, maybe you guys bake all the time, but for me, baking a cake is a very unusual thing. So I'm looking at the cake. It's looking pretty good, actually. How do you know cake it's looking pretty good actually but how do you know when it's done the recipes are 25 to 30 minutes in the oven and it's been in there for 26 is that enough do i press it what do i do um actually the fact that i'm baking cake is a tiny clue to a guest that i've just spoken to this week and I will put the episode out in a couple of weeks hmm who likes to bake who knows cakes yeah we love cakes don't we okay great

you don't like that cake all right thanks for that this week I speak to oh I really got on so well with her on on the, Sarah Beeney. So I've always really had a soft spot for Sarah Beeney. One of those people, I've loved her programs, her property programs and her approach to things. I've always just found her really likable, really enjoy watching her on telly. And so I was really keen to talk to her also she happens to have four sons so when I first started having lots of boy babies people would say to me oh all right that's Sarah Beanie she became like the sort of poster mum for mother of sons so that

was a nice connection and then as we talk about in our chat, between the time that I approached her and said, would you like to come and do my podcast and actually recording the podcast, she very, well, it's a very scary thing, got diagnosed with breast cancer. And she very generously let me talk to her about that and about how it felt to get the diagnosis, but about her perspective on it, which very typically of her, but also very happily, she's thinking of it like a blip

because she's had a very good prognosis and sounds like she's got an amazing team around her. So thank you to her for talking to me about that because, you know, my podcast is about being a working parent. You don't have to talk to me about your health. It's you know those things can be really private and personal but I think when you do talk about it I'm sure it's really helpful for other people I know it's really helpful for me to think about how that might feel because you can't help can you but put yourself in that situation if it's a situation you haven't been in before

so thank you so very much to Sarah for that And I think you're going to love our chat because she just comes across as such a lovely woman. And we had to record it on Zoom, but it was all very smooth this time. And no tech problems, which is a bloody relief. And I'm really, yeah, grateful to her for her time. I think you're going to like it. And I will let you know how my cake turned out

on the other side. All right, lots of love. Speak to you in a minute. Bye. going to like it and I will let you know how my cake turned out on the other side all right let's love speechy minute bye thank you so much for giving me time today um basically ever since I first started having lots and lots of boy children uh you were like the person that was always referred to me, like somebody who'd gone before who'd had lots of boy children. So you're like my poster person, my mother of sons. Well, you've got a lot of boys.

You've got one more than me, so I'm feeling slightly inadequate, actually. Don't be daft. You know what it's like. It's just more of the same. It is, it is. Yeah, they're good, though. I think you want what you get, don't you? Yeah, yeah I think you're right I always say that to people actually like

family is kind of like how the cards fall and then yeah and you never can imagine life any other way when they're yours can you no and I mean you kind of know you're lucky don't you although lots of people are lucky for not having children and having other children but well you just want what you've got yeah that's it isn't it yeah that's magic yes and so am I speaking to you are you in Somerset right now yes yes I um we moved here about four years ago um so yeah it was just before lockdown someone did say to me did we actually plan lockdown I didn't actually plan lockdown at all but uh it was very convenient I'm not going to credit you with that don't worry no no because that that would be quite powerful wouldn't it be really and you'd be very ashamed I'd have to slightly reconfigure how I think of you actually if that had been completely your doing but it would be a very good scoop for the

podcast so yeah if I actually admitted that I organized the whole thing. No, I didn't. But we were very, very lucky to be in the countryside. And, yeah. Yeah, you make me feel a little bit guilty because I'm a city person and I'm raising my kids in the city. But I do think that children make a lot of sense in wide open spaces. And every time I've heard you speak about your move to Somerset, it makes me think that's probably something I should be doing. No definitely not I don't think you should I think there's different paths I mean I suppose as a person I have a bit of a tendency to to make a

decision and then decide that decision was right because there's no point in making a decision and deciding it was wrong because then you really hate yourself so yeah I tend to be like like holding a banner for whatever I tend to be like holding a banner for whatever I happen to be doing. So I'm sure if I was in London still, I'd be saying, yes, everyone should live in London. You should never move to the country. Actually, I really relate to that.

I'm like that with decision making. That thing of making a decision and then having all of it sort of defensed off so that it was the right decision. I think it's quite a helpful way to be with things, isn't it? Yeah, I think so, because I think otherwise you sort of live with regrets. And there's always a different edit to every story, isn't there? I always think there's something really fascinating about the fact that

whatever story that someone tells you, if you went on holiday with someone and came back and told them someone about your holiday in one minute and they told someone else about the holiday in one minute there would be different holidays so there's an edit that you can you can make for anything in life and you know ultimately the king of the future is the editor and so just edit your life how how it is easiest yes and I totally agree with that and I think it I for me, I've always been really, the idea of regret is probably one of the emotions I'm the most scared of. Yes, totally.

But you only regret things you don't do, not things you do do. You learn from things you do do, I think. Yeah, I think that's true. But you only regret things when you think, oh, I should have done that. Yeah. So you should just do everything, shouldn't you? Which is probably why you've got so many children. Yes, ditto.

And I would think, so what was happening in your life when you first became a mum what was going on at that time well um I so I've been with my my husband now since we were met when we were really little so um well not really little but 18 and 19 so we've been dating sorry that's pretty young 18 and 19 yeah it's well looking back on it I thought I was terribly grown up at the time and I you know I remember people saying gosh you're fairly young and I was thinking what are you talking about I'm young I'm terribly old but looking back now actually it's quite young so so yeah but we've been um together for about 10 years and um and we'd had a property business so we had a development company and a rental investment company um and and then out of the blue someone called me and asked me if I wanted to

do this telly show and I kind of went okay so I I did and then we just bought um a building at risk actually in Yorkshire called Rise Hall um it was sort of a bit of a passion project it was i was really fascinated in buildings uh litter buildings and why they fall into disrepair and it's something that graham and i have always been interested in because you know obviously if it's in an area where with um if it's an area where there's lots of money then people do things to them but the area we bought Bryce Hall in, nobody wanted it. So it just stood empty because the cost of the repair was greater than the value of the building. And nobody wanted it in that area.

So we bought it. And I guess when I had Billy, my eldest, we bought that. I started doing telly. And then we had Billy. So that was kind of, everything changes when you have a baby, doesn't it? It does. And so it sounds like you'd just taken on quite a big thing there if you'd just bought Rice Hall and just started doing TV around the same sort of time.

Yeah. Well, it was really. It was, but you don't plan children really, do you? I don't think I had any idea. I don't know quite what I expected from children but um but I didn't it wasn't like I had a life plan you know I didn't kind of go right at this age I'm gonna have a baby I was just doing stuff and it opportunities came and I said yes to them and and actually mainly I had I suppose I said to Graham after 10 years look if if you're to, he kept talking about this wife,

and I'd say, is this wife going to be me or is it someone else? Because if it's going to be someone else, could we kind of like split up now? Yes, please let me know if it's not me, because it's just, yeah, I should probably know. Yeah. I thought it would be really untidy if he, you know, he always said when I'm married, I was like who is this anyway I

said look um I was kind of 29 and I said look you know either we could get married or I could have a baby which would you like and he decided to get married but I got pregnant anyway so that was fine then Billy came along but um yeah and then then everything changes and nothing changes sort of weirdly at the same time or do you think because for some people I think if they have been together quite a long time like that it is something that it really changes the dynamic and then for other people I suppose it's like they just sort of take the baby on the journey with them um it sounds like maybe it was more that for you um it was in a way I do remember I remember being pregnant and um and I was about sort of eight months pregnant and someone talked about NCT classes and I thought oh I better ring them

and I rang and and I said oh could I book into an NCT class and they said oh we've got them for for next January and I was like oh god I I book into an NCT class? And they said, oh, we've got them for next January. And I was like, oh, God, I'm giving the birth in four weeks. Oh, you've missed it. So I sort of missed all that. I just, I don't know, I just wasn't organised enough. So I guess it really, I suppose it really shocked me how it's quite an overwhelming responsibility when you have a baby. And I do remember feeling really,

really overwhelmed. And I did cry quite a lot because I just thought, where's the grown up? Like, who's, where are the grown ups who are going to fix stuff when it goes wrong? And then you look at this little baby that you think, oh my goodness, he's all mine. But what happens if I can't do it? Or, you you've always had a grown-up who can fix stuff before, haven't you, somewhere or another? Yes. Even if it wasn't your grown-up, some grown-up will fix it. But suddenly you think, oh, I'm the grown-up here.

Yeah, I think I even get that now sometimes with, you know, when you realise that in the story of my kid's childhood, I'm the mum in that story, it's quite it's sort of quite overwhelming isn't it because nothing fundamentally shifts you're just getting older and a bit more experienced and winging quite a lot of it aren't you totally totally and sometimes I think um you know we talk sometimes it's quite hard work being a good parent it's much easier not being a good parent. It's much easier not being a good parent than just having a laugh. And so I suppose I found it a bit, you know, quite often my husband will say,

look, you need to parent them. And I'm like, oh God, it's so boring. Can't we just have fun? It is quite boring being, you know, the things you've got to do, like be really strict about stuff and then they complain. And you just want to just you know I often

think you know I get I'm not I sort of get a bit carried away with things like um I know really late night I don't go to the theatre that's inappropriate for their age and I just think oh let's just go anywhere I take them to like go and see a band or something and they're the only children under 18 and I'm like yeah but just it doesn't matter does it which is probably really bad parenting and it's a Sunday night they've got school the next day or you know those are the sort of things I really struggle the fact that I keep thinking I should actually just parent here not just go and have fun yeah but I would argue that still is parenting because actually the opposite of doing the strip thing isn't

necessarily doing fun things it's actually probably not being at all engaged and you're still wanting to introduce them to things and hang out with them and do stuff it's just that you've got it in your head that the expectation is they're supposed to be you know prepared for the next day and in bed lights off by nine or whatever it is. But I'm not really keeping to that either. I don't think that's the opposite of good parenting, though. I don't think it is. That's quite interesting, actually. That's, you know, well, it's good to know that you're not either.

We're on the same team. But, yeah, you're probably right, actually. It probably isn't. At least you're doing something with them, aren't you? Yes. Yeah, and I think I've always had it in my head where there's a woman just like me and she's got everything very similar to me

except that she's just nailing it all a bit better. And I think the pressure of that is really tough. Although then I did interview Jules Oliver and it turns out she is the woman who's been in my head because she does nail it all and then her house is really tough although then I did interview um Jules Oliver and it turns out she is the woman who's been in my head because she does know a little and then her house is really tidy I was like oh my god I've realized it's I said it I was like oh it's been Jules Oliver's the one been living in my head but aside from Jules in there there isn't another that you know they're never it's never exactly the same circumstance that's going on in someone else's

life no and actually also i do think women have this weird thing i well i maybe not all women i can't count for a woman but but um i do think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves actually because somehow we think we have to be everything to everyone and and to be a really brilliant someone said this to me years ago i thought so true to be a really brilliant um woman you have to be a fantastic mother and a really great wife and you have to have a beautiful home and a great career and you've got to look fantastic and you've got to be really fit and you've got to be fun and you've got to be interesting and to be a great man if you kiss your kids good night like once a week then you're considered pretty brilliant and but I don't know who's

judging that I sort of think we almost are judging ourselves because I feel terribly I mean guilt I embraced when I had children like nothing on earth and I feel guilty if I miss a you know like them standing up and saying something at school I feel guilty if I'm not at work I feel guilty all the time I think oh god I should be doing more for I don't know why I feel so guilty because I don't think men feel so guilty definitely not definitely not and it's as you say it's sort of almost handed to you isn't it as soon as you become parent it's like part of motherhood like okay and now here's the guilt little rucksack for your back and I think that's probably why I started you know having these conversations is because I'm still 18 years down the line from having my first baby I'm still working that relationship

out a little bit and giving better space to my working life I don't think I've always been very good at giving that enough room so with your work how do you sort of set that off if you're going off to do filming or you're engaged in a project

do you talk to the kids like do you just like involve them with what you're up to or how do you make it so you feel a bit better about that um yeah I've been well I'm really lucky because we have a really open talky home and and they I talk about everything with them probably more than they want actually because they're probably like oh god do shut up but I talk to them about absolutely everything including you know every any business any contract any anything that goes on in my head it comes out and they have to listen to it sometimes they are a bit bored but but it means that they have quite a uh I think they have a quite a broad understanding of lots of things because I'm involved in loads of things so here we've got a farm and then we've got a property business and then there's

telly and then there's radio and writing stuff and you know we've got various web businesses as well and all those things I talk to them about all of it so um I probably talk too much to them but it means they have a very wide understanding. I mean, they're all dyslexic, all my children, so they don't read much, but verbally, they're really, emotionally and verbally, they're really capable of all thoughts, really, and conversations. So I can talk to them about, you know, stocks and shares,

and I could talk to them about anything. So I think having something, I suppose if you tell them about everything then everything you're thinking is a conversation whereas if you don't tell your children anything most of the conversations that you could have with them they wouldn't understand so you couldn't talk to them yeah yeah and also it's it's interesting isn't it when because I'm like you I talk to them about everything um so like this morning I was telling them I was going to speak to you today and they know everything I'm up to and I'm a bit of a stream of consciousness. But sometimes they'll talk back to me about something

or mention something I mentioned last week and I'll be like, oh, they were actually listening. That's quite nice. Because I always know it's coming in. Yeah, I think boys listen more than you think, actually. Because when you do engage, very often one of my kids will say, when they get back from school, they'll say,

oh, how was that meeting today? Like you say, and actually I think that's kind of, and they're really quite interested, not always in everything, obviously. I mean, they're not saints, but it's sort of, I mean, I'm kind of interested in their lives and it's like a good grounding for life. I think there's something weird in, particularly in the UK, it doesn't happen as much anymore, but it used to happen where,

maybe it does actually happen, where you educate children, and they do this education, and suddenly at 18, you say, what do you want to do for a living? So what are you interested in? And they go, well, I don't know. Because I sort of think, actually, life is a, you don't just have education to 18 and then suddenly go right now you're going to have a career and what do you fancy you should be if you discuss everything along the way life should sort of flow rather than have staccato points and um I did this exercise

in my head that um we were in a restaurant once and I thought um we were talking about different people's jobs and I said imagine how many people's jobs would be responsible for this restaurant how many jobs could you do if you wanted to be involved in this restaurant and so you've got the like the people who design the lighting fit the lighting design the chairs fit the chairs the people who design the menu the cook the waiters the you know the builders the electricians all these people the marketing people the website people and and you could think of sort of 150 200 jobs just that you could be involved in in that restaurant and if you think about that I think when I was young I didn't really know there were so many jobs out there

and the great thing about working in the media is um I come across and you I bet you've done it where you come across someone who does something and you think oh my goodness I didn't know that was a job that so I met the guy who provided all the candles for the Harry Potter films oh wow he had the contract isn't that amazing yeah like and he had a team of 12 or 10 or something that were just because they all had to be proper candles lit cut down and lit every scene wow in a shot and that was what he did and I was like god I would have thought that was a job that's yeah amazing also up until then he was obviously just selling candles and then he gets that contract and you're like yes it's a massive franchise sorry how big is the hall and you need candles in all of the bedrooms it's like

this is amazing hogwarts is literally lit by candlelight that's the you got the big contract the big candle all the other candle makers were like i'm expecting it they're looking at the scenes and they're going that candle wouldn't have burnt that much by then you know they're like they're probably really analyzing the candles as well but they've overcut that one the wick's too long or something i don't know yeah criticisms yeah angry from other candle makers candle criticisms yeah that'll be happening as well. You got the central jobs, then you get all the people that are annoyed

about those people getting those jobs. They wanted those jobs. But that's really true. And actually when I was, you know, reading up about your relationship with your job, I saw that you'd actually had some jobs when you were probably in your late teens. Things like, you said you sold vacuum cleaners

and that everybody should do it because it's really humiliating. I suppose you got to build in those jobs as well the jobs you do where you think I'm really learning something here like yeah I don't want to do this again yeah I I think it is it's um well those jobs are the and that's really hard because I did those jobs when I was young because I was I was very thirsty for independence and I wanted my own money. And so I washed up in the Little Chef, which didn't really exist anymore, but that was kind of a quite, not such a great job. They're the place that had real plates

and real forks, knives and forks, didn't they, Little Chefs? They were like, it wasn't like a takeaway one, was it? It was proper cutlery and everything, yeah. Oh yeah, super posh. I remember Little Chefs. Yeah, they had really, really disgusting um horrible puddings which are sort of like like that it's sort of they they were like apple pancakes but there definitely was no

apple it was like a gungy stuff yeah went in a pancake really disgusting best for fry up to be honest but um but I think those jobs um make you driven in a way and I I don't know quite what's happened because my eldest is 18 I think your eldest is 18 isn't that's right yeah yeah is he just doing his last year or is he is he a year behind yeah so he's got another year he's just started his last year now yeah so Billy's one year ahead right but um and I kind of looked at him so he's in his gap year now, which is brilliant. I'm like, okay, it's called unemployed, Billy.

But it's hard because, you know, jobs nowadays, there were more jobs around when I was young and I don't know what happened along the way for those sort of, like the paper rounds you could do. I mean, he has worked, he works in the pub, which is great but but um I think there were more it was a bit more casual work from 14 onwards you could just go and get a job just turn up and say can I get a job and they'd give you some cash and you know there's no it's more complicated now I think to get for young people to get jobs I think you're right actually yeah I think it is more complicated and

it's it's interesting because I know that when you finished school, you just went, you didn't go to university or anything, did you? You just sort of hit the ground running with this sort of fire in your belly. And I think for a lot of teenagers I'm speaking to now, they don't seem to have that same thing of just like just getting out into the world. And they're a bit more daunted by how to get access to the jobs they want. Well, I think a lot of that is confidence. And so I think, I mean, I personally, there's great things about the internet and there's downsides to it. And I think that social media

undermines people's confidence because you can't rub stuff out as well. If you make a bit of a fuck up, you used to be able to just go, oh, I was so stupid then now it's all there it's recorded it's there forever so yeah I think that's really hard um and I think you're always judging yourself against other people and I look back now and think when I was 18 I don't think I I think I looked in the mirror in the morning and maybe if I brush my teeth and then I didn't know

what I looked like all day and there was no recording of it because no one took photos so I don't know what I look like whereas now it's recorded all day every day and that's a huge amount of pressure and so I think um I think it is I think it's hard to also you know everything now you you just I remember my first jobs you just get on a bicycle turn up at all the local places like the the local hotel, local pub, and say, do you want anyone to work? And they'd say, yeah, turn up at seven. Now you've got to, you know, you've got to have your CV and you've got to, you just get a job in those days. It was just, I don't know quite why it was so simple, but it was quite simple, wasn't it?

I think you're right, actually. Yeah, because I kind of had like Saturday jobs and Sunday jobs and all that kind of thing. And now it just seems like, as you say, it's much harder to get access to all that. Going back to your relationship with what you do, do you still have the same love with property and renovation that you've always had? Yeah, I don't think it ever goes away. I think my, I love the concept of property for two reasons one I'm really fascinated in people and how they live and why they live the way they do and I mean people are so interesting

aren't they I mean they're just everyone's interesting and and I think um how people live I do think the way your home is can affect your mental state and and how you feel I think you know that that having um and it doesn't have to be a you know I'm so fortunate here we've got an amazing house and a lovely farm it's gorgeous but um so it doesn't have to be big or grand but how you live you know you look at people who people who are struggling and often there is a lot of chaos around. And I have a lot of chaos, but chaos doesn't make for an easier life, I don't think. And so I'm fascinated in how people live. I also quite like dealing and property is dealing and that's quite fun.

I quite like that element to it and the fact it's always different every every site is different every even if the building is the same you know the foundations are different or the or the contracts are different or something's different you learn every single day and I like learning because I get really bored yeah yeah no I can imagine the curiosity for it like it's endless endless, isn't it? As you say, people are fascinating. And the stories that our homes tell about us is really interesting because they probably betray a whole wealth of things beyond just stuff you like and stuff you, you know, where you've put the furniture and how you move around your home.

And I think that's endlessly interesting too. And I think when you spoke about chaos, it can sometimes be a representation of things that are, you know, people not feeling very happy. But similarly, when people haven't, they don't feel confident about putting their personality into their environment. I think that's really interesting as well.

I suppose, you know, we're lucky if we have a kind of language for how we want to feel when we walk into a room because not everybody knows how to make that access that feeling when they set up their home yeah so so true I think that's um yeah really true also I don't think people judge people as much as they think um so I I don't know I've ever been to someone's house and thought oh gosh that's a bit untidy I don't like them in fact in fact quite the contrary I think um I've gone to some people's houses where it's literally all out of a magazine I think oh gosh I better not sit down oh I don't know whereas you go to someone I've got a lovely friend and she was got she's always got chickens

on the worktop and you know it's absolute chaos every night I say oh god actually yeah actually she's just so welcoming and warm and lovely and um and so her chaos isn't isn't sort of nasty chaos it's just it's just sort of life yeah yeah it's just life I also I think um a home to me I love I love a home where everything has a bit of a story so I love seeing people's homes where they say, oh, that was my granny's, and that I got when we were at a junk shop, and oh, that was an old bit of wood that I found on the beach and painted it or something. And I think when it's all...

I often think when you see an interior designed home that's all been bought at the same time, and I think it sort of looks nice for a hotel, but I guess I there's you can feel there's no you know a person is multi-layered and so home yeah there's something nice about a squashy sofa with a stain on it isn't there definitely and I think that thing of um as you say of like the stories around you and I think it's good for your your head as well to to see little bits of your little

chapters of your life reflected back when you look around or at least that's how I like it for some people they'd probably think I've got way too much stuff but I like that feeling very much and when people speak to you about their homes what's the sort of most common worry or concern that they have um oh that's an interesting one uh it used to be about it's really interesting that actually because it used to always be about their value of their home people would always be always like you know clicking up how much it's worth how much it's worth will this add value and people are less motivated by that now I think that's interesting interesting but um I suppose I suppose the big one thing that I really I often see particularly in in city homes because obviously in the countryside people have

more space but but in um in cities you know every square inch is worth a fortune isn't it because everything matters um but I suppose I think often people extend houses when they don't need to because uh they feel they need more space because the space they have isn't working and the solution is to have more space um so there's a lot of extensions that go on particularly you know the standard victorian terrace you get the two bed three bed four bed you know they're all roughly the same victorian terrace um and then there's the big push out at the back with a massive open plan space which people think they want but actually when they then do it they actually then go oh actually now we've got a massive echoey space so acoustics that's one of the things i'm obsessed by acoustics so you have this sort of really echoey space where everyone's shout if you've got a big family and everyone's talking everyone's shouting

and it's all bouncing around the noise yes and there's nowhere to get away because they've knocked everything through yes so I think um the one thing uh people talk to me a lot about is why their homes don't work and I think it's often because they've done too much open plan living and actually want zoned living and different like escape places to get to yes i think an escape you don't need a great sorry say that again an escape place escape room yeah i would really like that i've realized as well like not even our our loos don't even have locks on them or anything. There's literally no escape place properly. Not really officially here.

You need a garden shed. Oh, I do. On the roof or something. Like, hidden. Yes. Behind a fake bookshelf. Yes, exactly. That's definitely one.

I've actually, I remember when the children were little, once or twice, maybe maybe more than that i'd go into the bathroom and lock the door in um in rise and graham would come and go are you all right okay yeah you know i'm fine i've not very well i'm not very well i was i was lying on the floor reading magazine just need kids tea i'm just uh i'm just really unwell in the bathroom well because you've had your kids so close together when you think but is it like this little like blur of like these small people or growing up together it's that's a very different thing to what i've got here yeah it is i'm kind of fascinated by your kids because they're really quite far apart yeah yeah my youngest is three so the the spread is really yeah far reaching um is that magic i

bet it is it's got some really good aspects and some bits that are a bit trickier so the bits that are trickier is um is doing stuff that's all age appropriate you know we don't really board games things like that that like doesn't really happen um anything where you know any little projects they have to be put so high up in between walls because otherwise a small person is likely to destroy things. So the kids are used to a lot of transience with them, with projects. But the thing I really like is the juxtaposition of like the same week that my eldest had his first driving lesson, my youngest started nursery. And I like, I like that scope because I find that really pleasing and it's like the battle keeping getting passed on

and I'm used to having a small person in the family I really need my brother and sister to get started so that there's another small person and I can I cannot think it should be me again yes they need to take up the battle Ion. I really understand where you're coming from, because I think there's a sort of self-perpetuating thing, which is very comforting. I've got a really big extended family, and I love the fact that at most birthday parties, or Christmas, or Easter, or anything, there's a sort of someone who covers almost every age.

Yeah, that's lovely. And then there's a new baby that's just popped out somewhere, and you think, oh, that's wonderful. and then it sort of makes that much older people like my dad who are you know much much older and he's 84 now but it kind of feels right that it's all just coming through as a sort of yeah like a journey so I I think um yeah I often you know I kind of sort of wanted to have more children but um but Graham said that I'd have to have them with my next husband. And I didn't figure I'd find another husband with four kids. So I thought, I'll stick with you then.

But, yeah, I think I had them really close together partly because I was a bit greedy. And once I'd established the fact that I was going to have one, I was like, well, I wanted to have six, really. But then I realised that the Waltons is actually edited because in my dream I thought it would be like the Waltons having kids and then I realized it's actually not a documentary at all the Waltons no no no night John Boy night yeah no that's not really happening but also the big benefit you've got with having your

clothes together is they've they've lived the dream they've formed a band well i mean that is the dream come on that is amazing it is kind of amazing and the band is unbelievable i mean we've kind of pushed music you know no child plays music because they want to they might hit some you know someone someone but they're not gonna you know to get through your grades on the piano it's really hard work or any instrument and you know it's a lie to say that music completely comes naturally to anyone because it is encouraged and particularly I think um I don't know what do you think do you think it's it has to be encouraged I think you're right and I think I've really um missed the boat probably I uh I've been very relaxed about practicing and I know I do understand that you've got to do that but I feel like maybe because Richard and I are both musicians

I felt like it was almost too obvious that the kids would all do that so I've kind of gone probably the other way and just left lots of instruments lying around to see what happens and the result is I do not have a band in my songs. Are you active? Do any of them play anything? I do not have a band in my sons. You might do. Do any of them play anything? Yeah, the third one down does a bit of guitar. My fourth one does a bit of piano.

My eldest two kept refusing, so I just stopped after a while. They've got other things they're interested in, but my eldest actually loves music very much, but he doesn't play anything. So we'll see. But there's other ways to go with music now. I think, I suppose, maybe if, I suppose Graham was in a band when he was young

and he had an unfinished business there. And I guess I slightly felt that, I sort of recognise if you don't get to a certain point on the piano by a certain age. I played the piano till I was about 13 or 14 and um then stopped and really regretted it because I never got good enough to be able to jam and yeah I was and I I suppose my frustration in my childhood I've taken it out on my kids and made them get you know made them practice but but then there's a point where they love it and yeah I think them performing

together is just it's magical um you know I saw it in the program I just thought that's so lovely it's really really adorable well it it isn't always lovely there's a lot of arguing with it but um but they do love it and and I don't know quite what happened because somehow somewhere along the line they wrote this song the only reason they did that song they'd been writing songs but when we did the show um they wanted to film the boys singing and and um and anyway they couldn't put a cover because there wasn't enough money to pay for doing a cover for the show because you have to obviously pay for the rights to it so they said so the production company said look what are you going to do and they went oh we'll just do one of our songs then because because there isn't any budget

for using a cover. So they wrote one of their songs and then all of a sudden, I don't quite know what happened, but they wrote, it was, they had various songs like bubbling away,

but they had Break, which was their first song and they thought, oh, well, if it's going to go on the show, we'll release it. So they,

they did it themselves on their laptop and then they released it and then amazingly, somehow or another another it ended up hitting number one in the rock tunes amazing i was like how did that happen that's so cool anyway it's been kind of an amazing journey and i mean graham absolutely loves it i have to say he does love it although he gets so cross with them because they don't do as they're told but um

is he a bass player graham is that his instrument he is he was a singer when he was about 18 or 19 um and then and then he didn't play for years he did he's not trained in music right um but he took up the bass because our second son charlie is now the singer has kicked him off he's like okay so you're not uh you're not the singer so charlie's singer so he's taken up the bass but he's And he's doing, it's really brilliant. He does, he does online lessons. So he goes, he's got this online tutor somewhere or other with lessons. It's not a person, it's like a set of courses.

Yeah, yeah. And so he goes, we've got a music room here. And he goes in and I can hear him there going, and he's watching the screen. He's on lesson 25. 25, that's good. That's good. He's probably played all four strings by now. Yeah, exactly.

No, he's doing really well. It's really cool. Anyway, they've had an amazing summer because they played, said they played at Carfest North and Carfest South. Oh, I was at Carfest. Incredible. Oh, were you there as well? Yeah, yeah, I was there on the Friday night.

Oh, that was at Carfest. Incredible. Oh, were you there as well? Yeah, yeah, I was there on the Friday night. Oh, that's so fun. Oh, that's really annoying that they were there on Sunday the first time and the Saturday the second time. You were on Friday both times, were you? I only did South and I was there on the Friday. But it's a lovely festival and I bet they had a brilliant time. Oh, it was mind-blowing. I mean, you've done lots of things like that,

but for them, I mean, it blew their head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was amazing. Yeah. No, that's so lovely. Because whenever people say to me, oh, you've got, you know, five sons, they always say, oh, five aside, football,

or something like this. But my kids aren't really that interested in football, so I always say, oh, no, a band. And I'm very reassured that that is sometimes what really happens. That's good. Well, I don't know if it will last forever, because they thought it was a sort of kind of vaguely unwittily

called themselves the Entitled Sons, and now I wonder if they're actually just acting out the names of their bands sometimes. I think it's brilliant. It was meant to be ironic. I think it's kind of genius. I was thinking about your time in the countryside and how, I might be wrong, but is it quite similar how you're living now to how you were brought up? Because when I read you describe your childhood as the good life,

you had animals and vegetables growing. Is it quite similar? Well, in my head it is. But I always think I look at life in a through sort of sepia glasses and um and I look back now and think I think oh yes it's like it wasn't like this you know you give your children the childhood you wish you'd had and they'll do the same I always think yeah and so this is um I mean it is in some but they are, my parents were self-sufficient and we had no money at all. And, you know, my children are much more fortunate, to be honest. Is it right your parents used to make doll's house furniture?

Yeah, they did. That's amazing. Well, they did lots of kind of crafty things. So they, at one stage, they made doll's house furniture, but it was collector's items, not children's, for children to play with. Because there's a whole world of people who collect doll's house furniture but it was collectors items not not children's to for children to play with because there's a whole world of people who collect doll's house furniture like grown-ups and take it very seriously and children actually aren't even really welcome in those shops like it's like a do not touch kind of environment totally and that's where so my childhood was going around these craft fairs which they'd they'd be selling their stuff and

i wasn't allowed you know we would like stuff behind the counter thing and we were told to sit there and be quiet. And then we'd go to Covent Garden. There was a doll's house shop. Yes, I know that one. That's the one I was thinking of when I said about you're not allowed to touch. So my mum would take me in that shop as well. And I was fascinated by it. But the woman in there was incredibly grumpy just to see anyone under the age of like, I don't know 30 40 yeah exactly looking at this furniture and I'd pick things up and have a little look and this woman would be looking at me daggers like put that stuff down incredible shop though yeah that's so true yeah

that's the shop that's the shop that I would have to go to as well with my parents and then they'd sell their stuff there so they'd take it in and I'd I'd be kind of told to stand very still and not touch anything yeah don't breathe on anything oh my god but yeah with it's like a whole world so yes they did um they did do that and they did they made um uh like baby walkers as well and like tricycles like wooden ones like stroller type things it's like the trains yeah oh wow I suppose that's I mean it sounds really kind of fascinating I actually love miniatures and doll's house stuff anyway so to me I find that quite magical I think I mean a lot of that around the house actually actually it's much better in theory than practice so my parents made two doll's houses for two different people and um and one of them was sent

to America they were commissioned by people and the other one was commissioned by somebody else a copy of her house anyway by incredibly long story which I won't bore you with it ended up coming back to me this doll's house about six months ago and now I've got a massive doll's house which has got all the furniture in and if I'm really honest you don't want it because now I don't know what to do with it and it just sits in the kitchen then I moved it to the other room I thought god I'm so glad, you don't want it because now I don't know what to do with it and it just sits in the kitchen and then I moved it to the other room and I thought, God, I'm so glad we've got quite a big house because it's enormous

and now I've got this doll's house and I keep saying to my niece, do you want the doll's house? She's like, no, I don't and I'm like, oh God, I've got this massive doll's house. Well, I don't know what you do with a doll's house. It just sort of sits there. I don't know, it kind of sounds like the dream.

I've bought a couple, like little ones that I've got on a shelf. I had this idea that i would get a whole row of them like a little run of houses um but yeah anything anything that's really sort of precious would not last like sometimes in our charity shop they sell dolls houses and they're always in really good condition and it just makes me feel bad because my kids just seem to just a lot of things just get destroyed like the windows would get broken the door would get pulled off it wouldn't be good enough to pass on to anybody basically I do like that do you know I think that might be about boys boys and I someone said um boys boys trash your house and girls trash your head I think that might

be true because I don't have anything that isn't broken I kind of look around and boy they're so destructive it's there's I kind of think yeah I don't have any toys that they had as a as children that haven't been kind of dismantled and made into something else but not very well made they're not creative it's more destructive yeah it's interesting because I always I always fight their corner with the kids because people have got such an idea of what raising boys must be like that I'm always sort of pushing back and saying you know people go five boys and I'll go five of anything or they'll say oh you know was it they say boys leave and girls remain what's the thing they say about boys

leave their mums so annoying so annoying like that's a great one literally you've just given birth to a baby and they're like he'll be gone like literally as soon as you have them like oh thanks for that um but I always push back but then every once in a while when everything is a bit noisy and they're like fighting with each other and things are getting thrown on the floor and breaking I'm like this is exactly what people think I live with and can you please stop it? Because I don't want you to be such a, like, cliche of what raising five sons must be like,

but sometimes that is my reality. But then maybe girls would do it too, I don't know. It's hard to say, isn't it? I only know what I know. Well, exactly, it's so true, you only know what you know, but I sort of think, in some ways, well, there is a moment where they, you know, that kind of brawl. We had kittens recently and they were all rolling around

and I thought, that is just like you children, they're just exactly the same. Definitely, yeah. They actually do like rolling around and fighting. Yes. You know, that is, you know, even my 18-year-old is very happy to fight. That's really fun for him. Yeah. You know, he likes that very much and I think

maybe some girls, there are girls who like doing it as well you don't often see groups of girls who do it it's so true a big group of girls just rolling around the floor it just doesn't happen in the same way I've been kidding myself all this time

I should just get over to it also boys are very good at not remembering things I quite like that about them they I think I mean there are stereotypes between boys and girls I think and and I do think it is true and and when I look at my sons I think they're all different but there is a bit of a you know they they don't tend to hold grudges and they're and you know they get they get bored of being in a bad mood quite easily yeah they don't remember last week when someone said something to them they're like what oh oh yeah they they sort of move on quite easily that might also be big family life I think you haven't got time to hold on to stuff in the same way because things move

at such a pace and there's always so much activity and new things to think about you haven't really got time to dwell on what went before really have you actually that's probably that's completely true and actually I I do I wonder whether a big family is probably more the thing I I don't know about you but what I love is the big family not so much the boy family I mean the boys great you know boys you, but what I love is the big family, not so much the boy family. I mean, the boys, great, you know, boys, girls, whatever. But a big family is really magic because I love the noise and I love the energy and I love the kind of, the fact there's always something fresh and there's always something new

and there's always an opportunity for someone somewhere. You always, you know, spinning plates, you always let them drop because something's dropped and you just think, oh, no, I didn't't do that but there's always something else coming along yeah and and that's kind of fun and exciting because someone's got a new adventure and even if someone's adventure didn't quite work out this week someone else has got a new adventure it's true and that person will be all right because because a new adventure will come for them too yes no I'm totally with you it's the big family life energy that I really love.

And I was kind of an only child until I was about eight. Well, not kind of. I was. I was an only child until I was eight. And I think I always loved the... Once I had my baby brother, it was like just having that energy in the house made everything better for me. But I did want to ask you, because I've spoken to a few guests now where they've lost a parent a really significant time and everybody's got a different interpretation of

of what that what the legacy of that is and I was talking the other day to um a writer called Dawn O'Porter and she lost her mum when she was seven and she said that actually it filled her with a lot of drive and a lot of joie de vivre like it really made her seize the day and I know you lost your mum when I mean she was only 39 your mum when you returned that is so young but it sounds like you had an amazing relationship with her in those first 10 years and it's sort of really given you this feeling of like doing stuff and wanting to do things for both of you in a way yeah it's funny's funny because I think, well, when you're a child, you only know what you know. And I guess you live in the present, I think.

When you get older and you're an adult, you can understand the concept of the future better, whereas children, you just live day to day, and then one day then your mum's dead, and then you're like're like oh and then you kind of move on with the next thing and then you suffer loss later I think whereas um because you don't really completely understand it then and then there's holes in your life further on down the line you think oh god where's oh that's that what that's the other advantage with it I always think my brother and I always laugh about this because the advantage is that um my mother was beautiful and gorgeous and and she's the perfect grandmother I talk to my

children a lot about grandma Anne so she still exists because she's still very much alive because we talk about her but she's flipping perfect I mean and I think there's no way she's as perfect as the image of grandma Anne so she Ann. So she would be the granny. She'd have paid for all our school fees. She'd be cleaning the house. We'd go on holidays. She'd have spring cleaned the house. She'd redecorate.

She'd plant the garden. She'd have taught them all to read. She'd have taught them all the piano. She'd do all their homework and do the school run every day. And she'd probably be grateful for it, actually, and cook supper. Oh, she sounds amazing. She'd be literally perfect. She she is she's really saintly actually I think yeah there's a little halo somewhere above her head and in a way I kind of think you know you wouldn't choose it obviously because it's really really sad but I think um in some ways life happens as it happens. And, you know, it doesn't mean that there isn't times where there's really big holes along the way.

But it definitely does make you impatient and driven. And I always thought, well, I probably wouldn't live past 39 because my mum didn't. And then I got to 39 and had a terrible kind of moment where I was like, oh, oh, shit, I still seem to be here. Oh, that's weird. So that was kind of really, hitting 40 was really weird for me. But I packed in all the kids, so I'd had four kids and had several jobs

and careers and businesses and I packed it all in really. Yes, I do think, all right, it gets you very impatient to kind of get things done in case you don't have time later. yeah um so that was kind of weird but but then yeah I but then now I'm 50 which is amazing so it's now kind of in the past um yeah and it makes you aware of the privilege of getting older as well because it is it's such a privilege isn't that time is like the most amazing thing oh well it well, I mean, it's, yeah, that's the thing that, you know,

time is everything, isn't it, really? It is. Making the most of it, making the most of every day, I think. And I suppose that's what it does do, I think, losing your mum when you're young. It gives you a lot of resilience. It makes you tough. You can move on because you can kind of find some steel inside

to just go and up and on. Yeah. And that's really useful. And I guess it also seems to have really consolidated this relationship you have with your brother because he comes up in every article I was reading about, your brother's always there. And I'm a little bit fascinated by the fact that you're, so your brother is married to your sister-in-law, like your husband's sister, right? Have I said that right? Yes. It's not even that complicated, really. Two siblings, they both marry

each other. But that is, that is quite unusual, I think. Do you know, it is, although when you do, I mean, it wasn't planned, obviously, kind of unusual. But yeah but yeah in a way it's sort of really obvious in a way and i kind of think i'm surprised it doesn't happen more because you've got two families with similar kind of values and i mean it's easier if you if we were two brothers and two sisters everyone would get it it's because we're a brother and a sister and a brother and a sister and that makes it really complicated that's just why i said it's actually just as simple most people would be able to say it a lot better than i did you can see see the cogs whirring as I was saying it out loud. As you say, it's actually really straightforward.

But also I think it sounds really sort of, there's something really wholesome about the idea of, as you say, these two families where it's like, it just all kind of clicks. It sounds really nice. Yeah, well, I'm really, I mean yeah I I'm not gonna say it's not great it is great it's amazing and um and I do think it's a probably my greatest uh privilege is is having um them as as my uh family and they've got four kids who I

we're absolutely adored so my I've got four kids my brother's got four kids and they're all really really really best friends wow and and that is kind of magic and I you know that Graham went up to London last week and um and so my second son Charlie somewhat amazingly it does sound like I'm sort of name dropping here which sounds really nauseating but anyway it is it was amazing he did a bit of modeling for London Fashion Week um anyway which was sort of I know it sounds a bit silly but anyway he was amazing but um I couldn't go because my eldest son had an ear operation so I was in the hospital with him it's very dramatic sort of night but anyway um but my nephew so my brother's son who lives in London went with Graham and they watched Charlie

and then they all went out to supper and they had a really lovely time and I thought we've got kind of got this massive family where like anyone can step in and then my youngest two went up to go and see the Queen and saying goodbye and and I got a text from my brother who happened to have gone up to London to see the Queen I went oh god you're in the queue brilliant because Raffi and Laurie are coming up oh that's brilliant could you find them and he's he scooped them up and then he had took them for the we've got a little tiny place we share in London and he took them back and then the next one I said are you taking them back to school and he went no school's boring I'm taking them out to

breakfast instead that is not a good thing an uncle should do and he went yeah I think it is what an uncle should do yeah I like it and and I just think we're so you know it's so lucky because we kind of swap each other's kids and they're all really good friends and and I adore my family so yeah that's something that you know there's no price you can put on that can you? No I think it's incredible and I think also the kind of invisible armour that it gives people like as you send them out into the world if they've got if they come from that it's a really precious thing actually I think there's a lot of good in having that around you it's like a little aura isn't it that you carry if you've got a big supportive family yeah I think you're completely right I think it gives you well it

gives you foundations doesn't it like really deep deep roots because you know that someone will be there. And it's emotional. It's not that they need them to be. It's not even financially or physically. It's emotionally, you know, that someone's kind of got your back and someone believes in you. I often think with people who don't have anyone who cares for them, how unbelievably hard it must be to be completely rootless

so that you've got... I just think that would be... I feel very strongly about people who are completely on their own and how unbelievably lonely it must be. Because that's very, very hard. Because you can have resilience against anything if you've got some of you together. But on your own, it's very hard. You know know you see one child at school when they're bullied and I always think that's so terrible because you just need them to have one friend because two of

them no one will bully um and no you're right that it's yeah the idea of that like as you say that rootlessness is really really scary and sad idea and yeah it was that partly what motivated you setting up the dating agency like the idea of people finding their other their person yeah it was I mean also because I'm nosy and like meddling in other people's affairs but I ran out of people my friends gave you ultimate access to all these people who were being set up by their friends so this is my my single friend.com isn't it yes yeah well I said that was years ago it was when um before really most of the dating sites that are out now and it was really just I I talked to you know you

meet someone and you think oh gosh you'd really like my friend so and so and and then there was someone I met and I thought oh you'd really like my friend so andand-so. And then there was someone I met and I thought, oh, you'd really like my friend so-and-so. And I thought, how am I ever going to get them to meet? And I couldn't work out how to, I was thinking, God, it's going to be so complicated. I'm going to have to get them to invite someone else to, and I was thinking, this is so complicated. And then I woke up in the night and thought,

why don't we just describe our single friends and we can swap all our single friends. And it was designed really so we could people who have single friends could entertain themselves by swapping them and then it kind of we launched it and it it just took off and it just was a you know it became like a really you know one of the I think it was one of the main influencing um websites that changed the way people felt about online dating because it wasn't embarrassing because you weren't describing yourself. I think that's genius, actually.

I think that's really genius, the idea of getting a friend to describe you. I think you're right because that's the bit that's really cringey and awkward. And also, how do you do that about yourself, especially if you're not feeling particularly confident about yourself? Like the idea of sitting down to kind of get your adjectives out is's just it could be really it could really paralyze you couldn't have like ah this is what i don't want to do this i don't want to put myself out there but getting your friend to do it is really nice yeah i think if you describe yourself you either sound conceited or or a liar and that's some you know that it's there's no win is there you can't say i'm fabulous

because that's just horrible yeah and if you're not very nice about yourself then it sounds it's just it's really hard so yeah I think it kind of that's why it took off but it was it was a moment in time it was it was just the perfect moment to launch that business if I'm honest and I guess that's the thing I I'm really interested in and the thing I like most I think as the children get older they take more time I don't know if you find this because little children when they're tiny

you think they take up all your time but actually they go to bed at 7.30 in the cot or 8 o'clock and then you have brain space whereas when they get older they occupy your brain literally 24-7

so I think as I've got older I've had less time because I'm thinking about them more I'm not worried about you know do they have their you know I don't know have they got lego right or is there little problems aren't they yes and then when they're older it's like god is this the right career for them that's like a totally should they go to university or not that's like yeah kind of bigger things um but at the time uh I had more time and I I like seeing gaps in markets and I suppose all the businesses I've been involved in has been based on the frustration that it doesn't exist already and then you just think well why is that not there so then then you do it yourself So have you got more things like that that you're thinking about at the moment?

Yeah, it changes now. So I had another online estate agent that sold a while ago. And when we moved down to Somerset, we decluttered life generally. We had all this stuff. So we had a wedding venue, our house in Yorkshire was a wedding venue. We sold that and we sold kind of decluttered everything and then we all ended up here um but i've got lots of other plans uh first i really want to do um i want to have a festival here next year oh that'd be amazing but

which would be i think i know who's going to be headlining about it could i get you to come and see? Yeah, I can come and sing. Will I be on just before the headline act of the Entitled Sons, probably? I don't think so. I think they'll definitely be warming up for you. But, yeah, I'd kind of like to do that. I've got a bit of a plan to do that. But I'd like to focus it more on young people.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect between what older people think young people want and they don't listen so much. So I've got kind of, it's not just a music festival, I'd like it to be about branding and fashion and younger people's view of that. So that's kind of one of my plans. That sounds great and definitely count me in.

I would love to do that. Oh, brilliant. I have to uh for you and bring you about that yeah yeah do it do it no that sounds great and i like i like the idea of as you say like incorporating lots of different things so you can get people to think a bit more about you know just connecting them with with the next generation and what's what's important to them and how they're thinking about life yeah because i think we have a there's a little bit of a tendency i say sort of you're much younger than me i am but um not much younger i'm 43 but um but they're people talk we don't talk to children we don't ask them what they think we talk about you know you endlessly hear about adults talking about children's mental health problems i'm like well where are the children talking about that?

Where are the young people? I sort of think we should listen more because they are the future, aren't they? Yes. And my slight frustration with, you know, I'm not going to talk about politics because that's like a hot potato at the moment, isn't it? But, you know, there's a lot of people talking and no one's kind of asking people what's going on. They're just telling everyone what's happening. I think you're right actually and also all that information is really exhausting for for kids as well actually I think I mean it's a barrage of uh you know probably

because we're now being encouraged which you know it's primarily good and it's well intentioned but to talk a lot more about mental health and all these things it means that sometimes I've probably had conversations with my kids slightly at them in that slightly nervous way of like oh I want to make sure we've talked about this because I know that this is important and then they're kind of looking at me a bit like you know I could sort of see behind their eyes like cartoon style like all the stuff the words piling in they're like I'm really happy you're interested in this but I'm just trying to finish my boosie before I go to college and I don't really want to talk about this right now. So sometimes it's kind of a bit much, probably.

Yeah, you know, you're so right. But I think that's partly because you're, I think if you're quite a strong, you know, you're a strong woman with sons and you want to make sure that they, I don't know, you have a, I don't know whether this is true, but I think maybe you want to

make sure that that those opinions they understand that these are relevant opinions and so sometimes i sort of like i think you're kind of like i sometimes go on to them about about kind of women's rights and things and they're like oh yeah no we get it mum and i'm like oh oh yeah sorry yes i do exactly the same thing I do exactly the same thing just they're just infamous I think I'm like a radio that's left on quite often to be honest it's like a sort of constant stream of stuff and actually my eldest I think like my last birthday he signed it from something like lots of love from your psychotherapist or something because I basically go into Sonny's room at the end of most days and sort of do a bit of a debrief and mostly actually

he's kind of like a counselor and he doesn't say a lot he's just listening nodding occasionally while I kind of wit around a topic to wear myself out and then leave again that's so familiar he should really get together with Billy they'd both be like oh my god we've been so damaged by our parents our mothers have driven us mad our mumsums talk a lot, don't they? Too much information all the time. Occasionally they'll say to me, when I talk to them about something,

they'll just go, we're just not that interested. Could you just stop? I know. Or like, mum, thank you, but I'm literally just in the middle of something and you've walked into my room when I'm literally in the middle of a conversation with a friend online or something you're like oh sorry sorry yeah but it does make them very good counsellors and does I think actually they're

better boys for it because um because you know when they they are you know they're people find them boys like that who've had mothers who talk to them about everything, they're easier to get on with. Yes. And I feel like I even more need to represent every future woman they might share a house with, really. I've got to be that spectrum for them. It's so true. As mad as it might be. It's so true.

Also, I'm very conscious of your time. I've been talking to you for a good while and I also I between the time of when I first reached out to to get a chance to speak to you because I've wanted to speak to you for absolutely ages and now you've obviously had your diagnosis with your cancer and I'm so I was so sorry to hear that and I hope it's been okay that we haven't really spoken about it very much but I just wanted to sort of send you a hug, really, because... Oh, thank you. I really...

The pictures you put with your boys and how they've been supporting you and how open you've been with them, it feels very similar to how I would deal with it. And I just, yeah, just really sort of sending you lots of good stuff, really. Oh, thank you. Yeah, well, it was a bit of a shock. But I suppose it was a shock in a way. It wasn't really a shock in some ways, because I kind of always expect always expect after my mother had breast cancer I always thought it's going to happen one

day and um and uh then but you don't really expect it and although when you walk into the room and they look at you with those eyes even with the master they look at you with those eyes and you're like oh I know those eyes and you just go it's yes isn't it and they go yes you go yeah but actually it's a funny journey because um so I decided to release the article on it because I thought I did I wanted to own the story and I wanted to say it in my way I didn't realize it was going to go on the front page of every newsreel I thought it'd be like page 17 or something and then it was like everywhere and I was like oh god I didn't expect that at all yeah um but um I kind of for a minute I thought I might not tell anyone and then once I'd realized I obviously

couldn't do that and I was going to tell the kids then I thought well I don't see why they should have to keep it a secret they should be able to talk to anyone yeah so if I'm going to talk to everyone then I might as well talk to everyone everyone because I can't see how you can keep it in a pot and not in a pot um so yeah yeah, but actually it's been, even in the short time that I've been undergoing treatment now, I've learned so much about it. And I think the one thing I'd say is that I was so scared of breast cancer and the treatment is so amazing now yeah and I think um we you know I

was living with with haunting memories of the fact that my mother died 40 years ago from breast cancer and I assumed if I got breast cancer you know they say you've got breast cancer you hear what coffin would you like and that isn't the case nowadays so the fear isn't we don't need to be scared we need to be scared. We need to be vigilant and check. I'd say just make sure you check and make sure you have a biopsy if you have a lump. Always, always.

But actually the journey is, you know, I don't even like calling it a journey. I'm calling it a blip because it's not even a journey. A journey is something nice, isn't it? This is just a little blip. And if it wasn't for the hair, which now I am actually completely bald which is kind of weird although it's sort of most of it falls out and then my son shaved it completely uh a few nights ago which is so now it's like

totally it's kind of smooth and weird but it's very cold at night but um and your son did it for you did you say sorry you said one of your sons did your hair for you. Yeah, so first of all, they cut it off after my first chemo. I put it in little bunches because you could make it longer, and I sent it to a charity to make a wig. So then it was kind of just like a short haircut. And then it starts falling out after it was about two and a half weeks. I woke up and the bed was just full of hair. And I was like, oh, this is...

And then it literally comes out in handfuls. And I was like, okay, that's just... And then you get little bits left and that's worse because then you've got like tiny bits. And so then I took to it with the dog clippers, which was a little bit longer than, they were about sort of a centimetre. And then I got to raise it, you know, like a tool.

It's now completely smooth. So, because you've got like lumps of weird bits of hair. But yeah, my son did that. He did it like with this shavy thing. But it's fine if it wasn't for that, actually. You know, you're a bit tired. But, you know, I'm really lucky. My diagnosis is really great and really amazing because it's not in my lymph, which is so fortunate.

Yeah, it's very significant. So, you know, it's just a bit, it's just a kind of weird... My head's going off on, like, lots of different satellites from things you've said and what I want to pick up on. Firstly, I think most people have got an experience with cancer that has left them very afraid of the word and I think that thing you said about you know that sort of I mean humans can be so complex but we can also be really simple and a little bit illogical and like you said about approaching the birthday that was you know the same

age your mum was when she died there's this we do sort of have this thing where in our somewhere in our heads we think there's a narrative that awaits us and what's gone before is probably what's going to happen again and just like you I've always had it I had I lost my grandma when she was young and I had cancer and I always thought right that's going to be me I was 11 when she died and I was like well that'll be me that's literally going to be what was going to happen to me so that thing of waiting waiting for that moment I totally understand that but also information with this is really powerful and as you said once you go and you see you'll meet your team of people these experts who spent hours and months and years researching exactly the best way to treat things when you really listen to it you know there's

actually a lot more good stuff out there in terms of how things are treated. And once you've got that information, you'll break down the fear a little bit, which is built up through years and years of us learning that, you know, sometimes cancer is the most terrifying thing, but sometimes it's something, as you say, a blip that's treatable and get through. But the other thing I was going to say is that your story was never going to be on page 17 because you've been part of everybody's lives for so long and you've always been a very calming wise presence so I think you know people really care about you so that's why it was front page not page 17 oh you're very kind it's very much too kind I think but thank you but but yeah it was um

yeah I think it's it's um a weird moment I think you come out of having cancer probably a better person than when you went in so um I yeah it makes you appreciate life as well. And I feel very, very, very, very grateful that my mother died 40 years ago and all the other people died 40 years ago so that they invested so much time and money into cures so that I will see my grandchildren even though she didn't see hers. Yes, absolutely. That day will come. And as you say, there's been so much research

and all these very, very clever people sorting it out so that everybody can get to have that next bit. And as you say, like, when you come out the other side of cancer, you probably find yourself meeting people and they say, oh, yeah, I had that seven years ago. That was my meet, you know, last year. And you think, oh, there's actually all these people walking around and that's part of their story, too. last year and you think oh there's actually all these people walking around and that's part of their story too yeah I think that's true and actually even the even the sort of there was one moment where I mean I recognize completely that you know I'm the age I am which means that that you know I won't this would it would affect the fact that you could or couldn't have children but I've had lots of children so I'm fine so it's not my you know I've got so many ways I'm so so fortunate and for someone else I recognize that um that you know cancer diagnosis I'm not being flippant about other people's diagnosis because it's so much

worse and in so many situations but this my particular one is you know better than most people which I'm very very lucky for um but I think it's so diverse. You know, we now, you look at one end of the spectrum where you've got a slightly dodgy mole and the other end of the spectrum and it's all called cancer. Yeah. And I think we need to kind of like somehow try, I mean, living with an absolute fear of cancer is kind of worse than having it in the way.

And I kind of think it's the fear that yeah and I I think um it's really exciting how far we've come and also there's other things that I've learned along the way which you know there's one moment where I they had to do some tests because they thought it might have spread elsewhere and I was really I'd had some I've had a few moments where I've really kind of had a bit of a breakdown with it. And I was with my brother and anyway, he found me. I'd had the phone call and they said, yeah, we think it might be elsewhere. And I was really upset. My brother came in, I was a bit upset.

Anyway, he ran out, got a bottle of rosé, came back and went, right, I've got a bottle of rosé. I was like, brilliant, that's excellent. And as he said, he said, you know, the thing is, is even if it has has the treatment you know it it's not like it's tomorrow it would be like years no years and years well they so the treatments are not there's endless treatments and I know I was really lucky because it turned out not to be and that was brilliant but he made me feel a lot better and I thought well you are brilliant so yeah that is brilliant I'm glad you have that that team around you and I'm sure as well your your sons I think the fact you're talking to them about it is already helping to break down that association we have with the diagnosis. Because they will take that information and then they'll be able to be the ones turning up a rosé one day.

Yes, exactly. Guys, sorry. Mickey, let me just do this yes guys sorry to jump straight back into the here and now but i've just taken my cake out and it looks it looks pretty good it came out the cake it's got to yeah you will uh cake's looking good it It's a salted caramel... Sorry, that's Mickey movies. Mickey, do you have to move that now? Where do you want to put it? Back where it goes. Oh, you like tidying up, don't you?

Yeah, my cake is a salted caramel cake. And a shocking twist of fate. It actually looks like it's going to look like the picture. I've never had that happen to me before. I'm not the baker in the family. And I'm usually a little impatient, but this was a really nice recipe. So I'll take a picture of it. Put it on Insta.

It's going to be Insta-worthy. Anyway, wasn't that a lovely conversation with Sarah? Isn't she just a very calm, reassuring presence? Hold on, Jessie. Yeah? Really? Oh, Jessie's got a friend at school called Sarah. Is she very lovely as well? Oh, that's nice. Yeah, I really love talking to one of those people where you can, you know, immediately get on with and picture yourself talking to more. So that was a nice nice thing for me and I'm so um relieved and happy to hear that her prognosis is so good as well that's that's a really good thing so yes let's

get planning the festival anyway I'm very aware that I'm in another noisy kitchen you want the little house I've got all these little knickknacks up. Hold on, Jessie. I'll help you in a second. All these little knickknacks up high. And Mickey's always looking up now and going, I want to try that. Then he gets them down and there's some dodgy bit of, I don't know, something I've collected from the 1960s that falls apart in his hands as soon as he gets it.

So he's normally a bit disappointed. I have come to the peaceful acknowledgement that pretty much everything in my house will break or be broken at some point and that is fine anyway in the meantime have a really lovely rest of your day or your week whatever you're up to um I've been having quite a nice quiet week this week I haven't done too much work so I've been doing lots of sorty things I did the attic I've done the quite a nice quiet week this week. I haven't done too much work. So I've been doing lots of sorty things. I did the attic. I've done the cupboard under the stairs where we put our shoes and our coats. I've done some drawers.

It's felt good. Rich has been away all week and actually it's meant that I've got on with stuff. I'm not saying I don't miss him, but it has been... What's inside it? It's like a little viewing thing. Can I see? Yeah, I'll show you. It has been quite nice to have some of my own

company sorry to say that but i do quite like it um so that's been quite good and yes as i mentioned before i've also managed to record a podcast one episode for a future week so everything's been fine i'll show you mickey's picked up a little viewing it's like a little looks like a little house but it's a kind of oh it's lost its chimney oh see i told you everything breaks you can't look inside because it can't move but you can see the picture that's there look through that little hole it's like an old um you know those tourist things like viewing to see little photos of the area and it's like an old french little house um and it's and it's broken so there you go. All right. Well, anyway, I'll let you get on. Thank you so much for coming to find me again.

I'm going to end on that. Yay. Masha and the Bear toys. Yes, darling, I'll buy you all of them. I won't buy him any of them. See you next week. Thank you for joining me. Thank you to lovely Ella May for my artwork.

Richard for editing. Claire for producing. Sarah for being such an amazing guest, but mainly you, because you're the one who lended me your ears. Masha in the Bear House. Yes, Mickey. See you soon.

Thank you. Bye. Thank you.