Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 77: Mary Berry

Episode Date: October 17, 2022

Who doesn’t dream of sitting down to tea and cake with Mary Berry? Well luckily, that dream came true for me – and this week I’m asking you to join me. Tea with no sugar for me thanks, because we’ve also got a slice of salted caramel cake to get through too! I visited Mary a couple of weeks ago, at her home in Henley. Her kitchen was a hive of activity, with her Christmas recipes being tried out, from her new book and TV series, Cook and Share. Over tea and cake in the conservatory, Mary talked about growing up in the war years, with sugar and meat rations, and how her mum used to save up their sugar rations in order to make the odd pudding. She told me about her route into TV and the golden advice she was given about smiling and imagining she’s talking to just one person when presenting her shows. I was struck by Mary’s incredible work ethic and her overriding positive attitude to life. This is in spite of and alongside her personal experience of every parent’s living nightmare: losing a child. I was grateful to Mary for sharing her thoughts about what we can do if a friend experiences bereavement – or indeed if we do ourselves.At 87, Mary remains full of enthusiasm for life, work, cooking, teaching – and was even positive about my suggestion of a surname change – one of my zanier daydreams!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis Bextor, it is produced by Claire Jones and post-production is by Richard Jones. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello. Richard asked me to record this time somewhere that's not too loud with the traffic. to record this time somewhere that's not too loud with the traffic um you can probably tell from the sound effects i have not succeeded i've sat on the green opposite our house i'm not on my own ray's here ray do you want to say hi hi um and uh i'm just back from picking up some bits for our

supper for tonight we're gonna oh what... Oh, what was that, Ray? Your phone. I'm going to try... Sorry, he dropped his phone. We're going to try and make a chorizo and squid thing that we found in the recipe book. And I've got some nice new wrapping paper because we were running a bit low.

And tomorrow I'm going to see my sister and her boyfriend and it's his birthday, so I picked up some wine and chocolates for him. So it's one of those kind of Saturdays. Pretty mosey. I like these sort of Saturdays. It's been a really busy week, quite eclectic. For example, on Thursday morning, I took Ray around to school

because he's about to start secondary, so we're looking at our options. Then in the afternoon, I flew to Portugal with Richard. Then we DJed until one in the morning in Portugal. Got up the next day, swam in the sea, flew back to London, got in the car, went straight to Cheltenham Literary Festival where there was an event last night for our cookbook so that was quite a crazy um 36 hours oh it's getting windy now Rich is gonna kill me uh I am absolutely thrilled oh hello nice little doggie dog's come to say hello. I am really, really, really excited about this week's episode of Bye Doggy.

Because, you know, I've been very lucky. I've recorded with lots of amazing people. But every once in a while, you also meet someone who's like got that, she's like a little bit magic, because this week's guest is Mary Berry. And I met her, I met her three times now so I met her once when she was on Strictly she popped out of a cake during a dance routine I said hello to her there while I was on it that is and then we met again when she was filming her tv show it's on BBC iPlayer it's called Cook and Share and she came to Wilderness Festival where Richard made us both a margarita oh the wind's's picking up, I'm sorry Richard.

And then, oh listen to the leaves in the tree, is that quite nice? Hopefully that's quite soothing in your ears. And then we met again when I went around to her house. I went to Henley to see her and lo and behold she baked flipping cake, of course, salted caramel, completely delicious. So good in fact, was that good Ray? So good in fact was that good ray so good in fact that um producer claire and i both independently made our own salted caramel cake ray did you just wipe your hands on my jeans while i'm talking i said sorry and um anyway with mary there was a lot i wanted to talk to her about but also some of it i was you know respectful she might not want to speak about i'm talking about the fact that she tragically had one of her sons,

one of her children die when he was only 19, her son William. But she was very open about everything. And it's fascinating to speak to someone who is now 87 years old. And yeah, and she still has a lot of the things that still bother modern working parents now, the guilt, the judgment, obviously way more for her when she was first starting her career and working all through her baby. She had three kids, but still a lot of it was, you know, a lot more relevant to now than, I don't know, maybe you would expect. But she was wonderfully open, incredibly wise, very, very kind. One of those people who just looks on lots of the positives.

Very clear with her thinking. And I mean, you're going to, I think you're going to love this conversation. And as we were talking, yes, we had tea from a proper china cup and saucer, salted caramel cake in front of us. What could be better? So I will leave you in the soothing comforting and wise words of mary berry and i'll see you on the other side before i go i just remember something i think you'll need to know actually so during the chat

uh so i'm there with mary but there's also uh claire jones producer of course and also lucy young now lucy is mary's right hand woman, and the reason I wanted to let you know about her is not only to say thank you to her, because I don't think the podcast recording would have happened without her, but also because Mary talks about Lucy. They've worked together for 32 years. They first met when Lucy was coming on board to help with putting together a cookbook, which is an Arbor cookbook, but she now is sort of Mary's right hand woman for everything really helps with all aspects of her life oh my goodness raise up a tree I'll take a

picture of you in a second and she's completely lovely yes I will and yeah I wanted you to know who she was because we speak about Lucy they've obviously got just the most incredible relationship really really close and actually I mean I knew Mary was a lovely person anyway, but she's also one of those people who's got around her a team of people, mostly women. In fact, oh, God, it's getting really windy. If not all women, we've all worked with her for a very, very long time,

which is always the mark of someone really great, isn't it? Anyway, I just thought you should know that. It's getting really windy. Rich is going to kill me. I'll see you in a bit. Enjoy. it's getting really windy rich is going to kill me i'll see you in a bit enjoy well thank you so much for having me over to your house today mary and i think the fact that we're sat here with um cups of tea in proper china with a saucer, a cup, and cake is exactly how everybody pictures us recording this podcast. It's ideal.

Well, it's salted caramel cake. You know, I'm not really into salt in cakes and things, but it's funny how things, you suddenly think, well, it is rather nice. I think it's delicious. I love a bit of salted caramel. This is very lovely. And tea is always the way to my heart. so i'm a very happy person at the moment i don't know how you manage because i know you have five boys i just think uh i had two and i

was fairly frantic with two and as a busy mom and you've got five but I suppose they all look after each other um sometimes I sometimes realize that the less I interfere the better it is so when I'm out the room and I let them get on with stuff they actually kind of sort themselves out whereas if I'm there sometimes they're vying for attention and actually I can kind of be adding to it but actually as I was leaving to come and see you today my youngest Mickey who's three said to me are you working today mummy because he's just coming into that bit where he's just starting to understand that I work and he asks questions now and I said yes I am and he just burst into floods of tears I was like this is such a apt scene for someone who's about to record a

podcast about being a working mum it was really really perfect I remember your mother Janet um because um Blue Peter was something that when my children were young we always watched Blue Peter they um they loved the uh dog uh was it called Shep or Shep yeah there was a Shep there was a Shep and you know they would sit down as I as a child used to listen to children's hour at five o'clock uh and now then my own children were watching uh your mum and I and I believe your mum who told me when I met you at Wilderness that she lives very near you she does so she'll be doing her blue peter stuff and one of my most treasured possessions is the gold blue peter you've got a gold one a gold one that's very impressive so that's very what do you get the gold one for it i think it was for

you know i teach i always think of when i'm cooking i'm teaching and so um i think it's because i encourage uh mums or dads uh to cook with their children and bake with their children and and uh anyway i was very honored to have it and you know i've never actually designed isn't it lovely it's gorgeous and actually this is the sort of um the cherry on top of the Blue Peter badges. I've got some of the standard ones. One I got by myself for going on the programme, but the others I used to steal from my mum because she used to bring them home when she filmed.

And then I also got one that's blue with a silver ship on it, which is what you get if you go on the programme on two occasions, but for two different reasons. So that's my... It's not as good as a gold one. I shall put mine safely back. Yes, do, because I have been known to sell them. And I know that there aren't so many of them about. There really aren't, and I genuinely did used to sell them.

I used to sell them in the playground when I was small small so you're wise to put it back in the box i can't be trusted quite frankly i've sort of shown it to my grandchildren when uh when they were young yeah no that's lovely that's lovely i'm really glad you showed me actually as i said i've never actually seen one in real life and i know my mum would quite like one so maybe we can see what we can do about that but we met really recently as you said at Wilderness Festival. Did I enjoy Wilderness because I've only been to one other festival and this one was I remember driving in it was so beautiful and it was so well run and everybody uh was happy to be there weren't they and there was no litter there was um you were there was a beautiful lake and you were allowed

to swim in the lake and there were even lifeguards there i mean what a day out for a family. So much to do. And I think on the Sunday they were playing cricket, all sorts of things. I think someone mentioned it was naked cricket, but I'm not sure if that's true. I hope that doesn't change your view of the festival. But I mean, it's very much emphasis on food. You could go there and have a dinner cooked by one known chef,

and you could do it at 12 or you could do a much bigger event and I had tastes of them all and it was it was absolutely amazing and also there was fashion and people dressed up yeah I know my own daughter had a sort of a extraordinary outfit and was totally happy in turbans and things people just wore what they like they did have themes but not everybody you looked in the dressing up box and wore whatever you felt at home but the whole atmosphere was absolutely lovely um and of course there was music and I could hear you singing. And then we actually met. Yeah. And what I remember, I thought,

she's so young to have five children and your little short skirt. You know, I thought, how does she look so calm and so lovely when she's left at home with five children five boys the key there in that sentence is at home that's how I was so calm but we ate a delicious risotto and my husband Richard made us margaritas he did indeed yes was it strong yes I just had a little sip and I wouldn't have been able to continue but yeah no it was absolutely lovely yeah it was good and we had a very brief chat about about working mothers really because I don't really think there's many people who are as good an example of a work ethic as you and I just wondered where the moment what's going on

in your life at the moment what projects have you got when I arrived here today there was lots of activity in your house for new cookbooks and the tv show and um I like to think that our recipes are um just what people want um I like to think that I'm there holding their hand while they're looking at the recipe I'm there I hope every detail is in that recipe. Where it might go wrong, saying, you know, watch out, it might curdle. If it does, just give it a good beat and it'll be all right. And we do test them until they absolutely are perfect. And the recipes we did at Wilderness were in the book Cook and Share. And the advantage of having a book is that on my book, every single recipe, there's a picture.

So you sort of maybe they've watched the programme on Wilderness and they see some of the cooking. Then they look in the book and wilderness and they see some of the cooking. Then they look in the book and it reminds them what the recipe is. And they think if they want to make the salted caramel cake, there's a picture of it there that, well, that'll help me. Because I personally like a book. I don't like it on Kindle because you can't see the picture. And it's just a backup to the television series. Yeah, and also with a book as opposed to a Kindle or anything,

I like it when you get the pages a bit sticky with the food because you've been cooking and it becomes one of those really loved-for books. Look at that book. There's all sorts of stickers there. I always encourage people, if they don't actually physically want to um write in the book if you get one of those sticky label things and you put uh i made it in granny's dish it overflowed next time choose a deeper dish or something it reminds you because uh and also when i've got a dish you know a particular lasagna dish and in the book I've said do it in a dish say 12 a particular size I then go to my own dish and it doesn't exactly fit but I write on the bottom the measurement so that next time I pick it up

I know and I don't have to go and find the tape measure. Yeah, yeah. I do it with a marker pen. And you don't actually even have a number, Nadia, in your head of how many cookbooks you've done. Well, people are always saying that I've done an awful lot, but many of them start off as a big book and then the publishers will redo them in cakes or puds and it's come out

of a big volume um so and some of them are little tiny books but we we do lucy and i do a book a year with a television series so it's plenty of time to find recipes that people want at that time because our times have changed. I mean, we're being pretty frugal now because times are hard. And so we'll be giving, maybe in casseroles, putting a few more vegetables in because vegetables versus meat is much cheaper. We'll be trying to use, make less waste. Yeah, yeah. So you've been conscious of how people are actually living. I would say, you know, open your fridge door before you start and see what's there.

Can we use it up? Yeah. And will it improve the recipe? And we don't want to be throwing away bread people throw away bread that gets to the ends just you could easily make it into uh breadcrumbs or make bread and butter pudding or something it's uh i think we've got to train ourselves not to have waste no that's actually a really good point and i i promise from you can i'm looking you i will not throw away the ends of my breads anymore because actually you're right that's

that's a real opportunity and you mentioned lucy there so who is lucy to you um people sometimes now refer to lucy as the boss because she bullies me uh you know the phone will get an email saying, will you come down to Cornwall and judge our cake competition or whatever, or we're having a produce store or whatever it is, a bit of judging. And I said, oh, that would be nice. And Lucy says, you can't go all that way. You know, well, we sort of, I said, well, I could be on holiday at that time or whatever so she's like a right hand woman she yes well she's been with me it must be something like

32 years and that's a long time yes and um she we think alike it's very strange if we're actually wanting, I mean, next weekend is Harvest Festival. And I sort of say to Lucy, I've got to take a dish. What would you take? And I think, well, I hope she says a vegetarian lasagna. And she will say, why don't you do that vegetarian lasagna that you love with all those lovely roasted vegetables? Because it's something that I can do very easily and everybody seems to enjoy. When you were talking about Lucy being the boss

and you said if you get the opportunity to go and judge cakes and cornwall, your tendency is to think yes. Where is that passion coming from? Because this is, after so much you've achieved, you think you might be thinking well maybe i'll take it a bit easier but it seems like there's so much energy with what i'm always i'm always i think well isn't that nice of them to ask me sort of thing and also when you get there they're so appreciative yeah and um i was doing doing a charity.

I'm president of the National Garden Scheme. And all the profits from the National Garden Scheme go to nursing charities, you know, like Millen and hospices and things. And they had an auction and they said, would I do a tea at uh clarages um that people could uh buy uh and so they had an auction for it and uh somebody a group of five played uh uh i think it was five,000 and that was yesterday. And, you know, I thought, oh, it's a long,

I'll go up to London and that'd be lovely. And I was driven there, which is to me a great luxury. So I just had to arrive and I made quite sure I was smart so that, you know, they felt I was making an effort. And they were absolutely lovely and you know they had read my books and did my recipes and so forth and it was getting near to five o'clock that was just the time for me that I'd be going home and I said to the that I was going to be picked up and wasn't I really lucky to be driven home it makes it a

real day out for me and I said to the um my guests uh how are you getting home um and they said actually we're going by our helicopter so I thought I wonder how no wonder they paid five thousand pounds to come and have tea with me. But they were just the most delightful, modest family. And, you know, I'm so glad that I did it. Well, also, it sounds like when you're interacting with people, you've got this real affection, which sounds like the same voice you're using when you're writing your recipes and picturing them,

you know, looking in their fridge, getting out their pans, all the things. You can sort of almost envisage this person on the other end of your words. Yes, I mean, I was taught very early on, not taught, my first programme, some of my first programmes were with Judy Chalmers. Your mother, Janet, would remember them.

And I did cooking on these programmes. And I used to get very tense and you know i took everything in and in those i mean now i have lucy to help me i have lucinda uh we have home economists you know when i'm actually cooking everything is weighed out for me and i just cook in those days i did everything myself there was no Lucy. And so I would get to the studio in Euston, it was then, and I'd walk in and there would be tables there with the news from the night before, pieces of paper. And suddenly the kitchen would be built,

the clock would be put up on the wall, and the drawers wouldn't open, but it looked like a fantastic kitchen. And then I would start to unpack my stuff and arrange my ingredients and things. And it was quite stressful, and therefore I was concentrating all the time and looking very serious. And I never spoke to the crew. And, you know, I didn't want anything to go wrong I wanted it all to be perfect and Judy said to me could you smile at

the crew they're here to help you and also if you don't smile when you're actually cooking there are other channels and people will be perhaps doing the ironing just one person you're not talking to a gang you're talking to one person that's what you want to think and if you're boring and you're not making it fun and interesting they'll go to the other channel so i always remember that yeah that uh you need to concentrate on one yeah so that people feel that oh she's doing that for me rather than a huge how about when you sing do you think uh i'm singing to everybody there or do you think of that one person that thinks you're wonderful and you've got to please them i think it is always one person actually and the

same definitely for radio and anything spoken i think i always picture the other person on the other end yeah um and I think that's there's an intimacy in that but yeah certainly if I'm nervous the most nervous I've ever been the most tense was when I was doing Strictly Come Dancing years ago and I'd always come out on the live show and find you know someone who looked really it would usually be a woman that would look maybe a little bit like my granny in the crowd and I'd be like I'm just dancing for that lady that's it and that would be the thing to relax me and I think that that idea of having one person in the end you know as you say that woman doing the ironing looking through

the channels that's really that's a really great image isn't it for who's on the other end and you're right people aren't watching in groups it's just it's just actually it's actually more intimate than that so you know I was taught that and i keep that in my mind uh today so when you said starting tv was that when your children were little um i they were small uh and of course um my girlfriends none i mean i'm talking of what in the 60s uh and so uh i was working and we were we were uh there was not much spare so we had mother's help you know and so they did a bit of everything so it was a responsibility leaving them you know they weren't an all-in nanny. It was lovely girls who looked after the children. And I always felt guilty. I thought, I should be at home. Everybody else is at home. But on

the other hand, I really love what I do. And my husband was right behind me, as he is now. I mean, he still says, I say, would you rather I was at home with you and he said you love what you do go off I'll have a drink for you when you get home but it was very um demanding I think and I was always trying to uh get back in good time and when I was at home I was always cooking for meals to be good meals to be left for them and of course school holidays were a real problem because I was you know I never said no to jobs because I love them and the more things you do the more interesting it is so I did everything and it meant that as soon as I was at home I would then have other friends of the children's I'd have them in and I wasn't very good at amusing them except with baking so I would have them

and we'd I'd make maybe pizzas and they'd make a simple pizza dough and then I would have them and I'd make maybe pizzas and they'd make a simple pizza dough and then I'd have bowls of all different things and they would put their own toppings on and because they'd done it themselves, of the things that they'd like, I mean, they would put things like peas on top because every child likes frozen peas,

you know, all sorts of things. And then they would eat them for lunch. And also I used to do an awful lot of the outdoors when we had children. I mean, now they have forest schools, don't they? But I would go out and we'd pick different, you have to collect 12 different leaves, and then we'd come back and say which tree they came off or who can find a certain thing certain thing you know blackberries and things

and I would take them getting things from the hedgerows and then come home and cook with them but it was a stressful time and very very difficult. And when you so when you first became mum so so this would have been late 60s, what was the expectation for mothers at that point if they were working? It was very difficult. And I was on a magazine and when I was, had Thomas, our first son, and I was in the office in Hoban at 11 o'clock. And I thought, I feel a bit strange. I think that baby's coming. Oh, you were at work?

And so I rang my husband. And of course, he was in the office. And he said, well, I'll come and see you. I finish at five. And this is absolutely true. And so I rang a great friend, Shirley Nightingale, who I still know to this day. And her husband was a pilot and a neighbour.

And he came and took me into hospital because, you know, Paul wasn't quite sure whether he could take the time off. I mean, it's absolutely true. And sure enough, ten past five he came and I still hadn't had Thomas he was there when Thomas came and um it times were different and so with with with Thomas did you it's I think I remember reading that you didn't really have maternity leave for very much time at all no I mean if you were in a job and, you know, I was staffed and paid,

there wasn't much maternity leave. And also, you weren't really expected to come back. You were a mother. And so I was back in something like six weeks back in the job, which was absolutely absolutely fine and I've got help but you know you're pretty tired but it and I was still doing proofs in my hospital bed because you know uh that's how it is and also it passed the time and it's something I know um but I was very nervous of not going back and not, I loved what I did

and unfortunately I was paid for it and things are different and now I think everybody is very fortunate that I'm not quite sure of the rules but I think you have a year to decide whether you're coming back or not which is, it's wonderful but for the little shops or small employers,

that's quite difficult to leave a job empty and have somebody else and then say, well, you've got to go because so-and-so is coming back to her job. But that's how it is, and I think we're much luckier. We are much luckier, but, yeah, there's still, I think, you know, different areas have different regulations and rules. And I think also with what you're talking about, with opportunities and specifically something you loved so much,

I think it's not that unusual to have that fear of being replaced, really, and losing your job. And this is an amazing opportunity, but also something you cared about and you could tell you were good at so you've got to seize all that but i think am i right so you had three children within four years that's that's that's right well you know you know all about that and it was lovely and it was nice to have them i know i was quite old because i didn't get married until I was 31. So we had to get on with it. And we were very fortunate.

And all the children, people don't believe it, but they all slept. Really? They all slept. That's a big advantage. They all used to, they had a very active life because uh and quite a sporty life even from very little and so they were tired but they're about seven o'clock they were down and you know it was seven next morning and i realized how lucky i was and you've i've read sometimes where you've been quite hard on yourself saying that you think you weren't you know you felt guilty but also that absolutely very i felt guilty because um you know all my my girlfriends were not working there's

some help with charities but on the whole in the 60s and early 70s a lot of people didn't you know that was your your job was to bring up your children um but mine haven't suffered too much uh annabelle did say when she was a stroppy 17 year old uh or maybe she was 16 i'm i'm never going to to work with my children uh i don't remember you reading to me and of course because of my guilt i'm both my husband and I've read every night to the children and spent a lot of time with them and my husband did you know school runs and things and strangely enough Annabelle has since said mum I was very horrid to say to you that I do remember being read to and she's working herself.

Well, doesn't she work with you? She does work with me. Which is a lovely thing. We're very lucky, we have a very good relationship. But there have been moments when people say, aren't you lucky to have a daughter nearby that's so lovely? I said, yes, but you try living with her when she was 16 17 it wasn't so easy well I think as well it's I think with kids you're very good at working out

what gets a good reaction from your parents and I know that even my own mum because on Blue Peter they used to do loads of things where they'd make things yes and people would say to me did your mum make things with you and I'd say no and then my mum said to me you have to stop saying that because it sounds really bad it sounds like I just did it on tv but not in real life um but I think when you feel like you're you know it's very easy to feel like that with your parents isn't it and then if they get if you know you get a response then oh that's a good i'll bring that up again that really worked but i mean as time went by i'm really glad that i did continue working because i have a a wonderful relationship with lucy after all those years you know i can hardly if i go and get a a dish a dress from zara i'm home well wait and, we'll wait and see what Lucy thinks of it.

I mean, it is a relationship that is very important to me. And also Lucy and Lucinda, who does our testing, you know, I mean, Lucinda arrives with a donut for my husband. Last thing he should be having is a donut. And she hasn't asked me or anything, but that's what I do when I'm passing the donut shall I give one to Paul and you know the girls all spoil my husband and he knows it isn't yeah but also I think with parenting it's it's a long game isn't it so we

we can put a lot of pressure on ourselves to be really good at that early years bit but as you say your children are fine you know you have a good relationship with them so you can sort of let it play out and what's it like watching your children become parents and having grandbabies i'm absolutely amazed what uh uh thomas and um Thomas and Sarah, that's my big son, and Annabelle and Dan, spend an enormous amount of time with their children. They listen to them, they do things with them. I mean, during the pandemic, Annabelle took... First of all, she's very keen on tennis herself.

And she took all three children onto the court and played tennis. It was shambles. So every afternoon, she would take one after another, half an hour each, to fill in the time. Because when they're all at home doing homeschooling, they did very well, all of them. And I didn't have all of them and that i you know i didn't have that have all of them at home i mean it was so hard for everybody wasn't it yes and particularly when you didn't have a garden or couldn't get out to space um i really i think my hat goes to mothers who um managed to get through that with children because it must have been ghastly to be cooped up

somewhere where you have no outdoor space. Well, you've talked about outdoor space quite a lot. Is that something that was in your childhood a lot, being outdoors? In my own childhood, you know, the door was open on school holidays and you just went out. was open, I say school holidays, and you just went out. And, you know, even when you're about eight, we would walk to a park or, and, you know, just came home for mealtimes or we took picnics. But of course, it was safer then or nobody ever, also, in my childhood, I've remembered that the front door was never locked. Or the back door.

No, I mean, it just wasn't something you did. That's amazing, isn't it? And now, you know, we're like, most of us are like Fort Knox, you know. Are the windows shut? Are the, whatever. Just because it's a different world. Yeah, it's true. But I did wonder as well if, I mean, because your childhood, you would have grown up through the second world war and i wondered what it's like to have a childhood that has that sort of very serious backdrop is

that something you're aware do you think there's a kind of like a takeaway from that of your generation something that you all share because that was um we were in the war, I can remember my mother saying that rationing, it was a very small amount of butter and bacon and meat. Offal was not on coupons. And she was very frugal. And I can remember her saying, if you don't take sugar in your tea and coffee and everybody took very few people drank coffee in the war they drank tea and everybody drank sugar had took sugar in it and if you if you give up sugar and tea there will be the odd pudding and cake um and that's where i can remember so well because mum would make um bread and butter pudding or something with a bit of sugar in and um she was very wise and in those days it was always uh my my father served first and then the children and then my

mother and my mother became quite slight because you know you held back because there wasn't that much available yeah it's a really defining we forget that yeah i know i know and i think you know we're the the kids now are the furthest away generation aren't they in the uk from from something like that you know we've we haven't had to have conflict on our doorstep like that and you know children's parties were literally you went to other people's houses or a village hall, that was it. And there were no theme parks, there were no luxuries, there were no, you couldn't go to outside farms and things,

wildlife places, everything was closed and you were at home yeah that's very true and i think even without that aspect you also now that when you talk about wilderness and you see people dressing up and with their kids the generation gap is much smaller isn't it in terms of how her parents are with their kids i mean you see parents being silly and dressing up and doing fun things but i don't think everything was much more uh relaxed uh than it was um but you know there was lots of lots of fun yeah and everybody had a dressing up box of a you know granny's old things and no we had great play time but it was all at home and created uh at home yes as when you were talking about you know baking at home have you always had as much love for cakes and baking as you has it been a very consistent thing not not really um i've always enjoyed cooking and it doesn't worry me because i because I understand the science of it.

But I don't like baking more than... I really like cooking for friends and family and I love to hear what they say. You know, oh, that was delicious, how did you do that? And then I'll give them the recipe. I always share my recipes because I don't understand anyone who said well i'm not going to give you the recipe you know it's life is all about sharing absolutely you know in my book um i'm all the time trying to be up to date i mean now if we go out to a pub

very often there are sharing platters that's fun to do at home. And if you're not a great cook, you can use things that are from the deli counter to spin out the things you've made yourself. I think sharing is what it's all about. I agree with you. And also all the best teachers are very generous with their knowledge. That's a consistent net. Absolutely, whatever subject it is.

Yeah, whatever subject it is. Yesterday, Mary, I was listening to, I was re-listening to your desert island discs which i know you recorded a really long time ago but i have to say it moved me to tears on so many occasions and i know when i walked in there's that beautiful picture of your three children and i'm just so sorry about what happened with william i can't you've basically had to live through every parent's worst nightmare of losing a child. Yes. To lose a child. William was 19 and he had borrowed the car with our permission and he took his sister out. He was quite a careful child and he just drove too fast and was killed.

It was immensely traumatic for his sister and it was such a relief to us that she was saved. And I mean, I remember the day, it was a Saturday and I thought, well, why isn't Will back for lunch? And then there was a knock at the door and a policeman came in and you instantly know what's happened and i felt so sorry for the policeman because he was you know looking at me and he knew he had to say that william had been killed and i said but what about annabelle and he said she's all right so we went straight to w Wycombe Hospital. And we were given a cup of tea. And then coming down those long corridors in the hospital was Annabel in a pink tracksuit that was muddy, running very fast.

And I thought, I've still got her. And you immediately turn, at least we did. We had a family, a very great friend Sheila Ingalls living opposite us when we were in Pan and that she has only one child and I thought well we have two others and I think we were in a way I mean you have to take what's thrown the card that's thrown at you and although it is immensely sad you know i often think now if william had was a couple of years older three years older and he had a wife and a child now that wife could go marry somebody else and move that child away from us you know there are so many positive things that you can actually

think well one was fortunate and also we went to see William in the hospital and you know to see a child calm and cold and and happy you know you realize he's gone to a better place. But I get a lot of people from my life storybook, autobiography, people say, I get phone calls, I get letters, you know, what am I going to do? I've lost my child so often in motorbike accidents or something about that age. And she said, am I going to get over it? or something about that age.

And she said, am I going to get over it? And I would say, you don't want to get over it. You want to live with it. Which does happen. But I mean, if William walked through that door now, I'd say, where the hell have you been? And I would expect him to walk age 19. But of course, he wouldn't be. It's 30 years ago.

And he was a very special child. Well, isn't every child special? Well, it's 30, 31 years, I think. And next week or the week after, his best friend from school is coming with Anna, his wife, to have lunch with us. And they still visit William and think of him. And, you know, it's lovely to think that people remember him

as well as we do. Yeah, I think, I mean, if I've ever... Whenever you hear any story about a child you put yourself in that story don't you and it becomes your child and I think I always think I'd want their name to be spoken because they were here and they existed

in those days there wasn't a child bereavement trust there are other charities too so I was you're still patron of, isn't it? You're still a patron of the child birth? Yes, I am. It's an amazing charity because they have trained counsellors

who support the family when the child is lost. And they do special sort of Saturdays in different regions where a child can come meet other children who've lost their mother their father their brother their sister and chat and particularly sometimes it's the husband who is broken-hearted he comes back and he meets other men who've lost their children um it's very it's very needed yeah but in some families we were very lucky because i had a wonderful friends and um who would talk about william who would think of nice things to do in a you know six months after he died friend i had a great friend claire who uh who William was on the 21st of January.

Two weeks later, she said, I'm going to Chelsea Flower Show and I've got a ticket for you. And so I had that to look forward to, thinking, I don't want to go to a... You start off by thinking, do I want to go to Chelsea? I don't want to do anything. I want to stay at home. But gradually, you realise life has to go on. And it does have to go to chelsea i don't i don't want to do anything i want to stay at home but you know gradually you realize life has to go on and it does have to go on and um it's not the same but it's uh it's different well i'm i think it's thank you so much talking to me about it because i think i do agree with you that speaking about things and having the conversations is really important and i think we still have you

know lots to learn about how to deal with people's grief and everybody is different so that's true we had um uh i rented a chalet years ago for friends um skiing and um my flatmate at the time uh jilly was coming over by plane to join us and it crashed in uh austria and she didn't arrive and she was killed we immediately we went back to england we went to bristol to see her parents they didn't want to see us and we were in the doorway and in the hall normally were pictures of Julie and they'd taken all the pictures down they didn't want to discuss it and they were just nice to us and I went with Penny and you know the door was shut and that's how they wished it to be that the subject isn't open anymore so you can't have rules no that's you they wished it to be, that the subject isn't open anymore. So you can't have rules. No, that's true.

You've got to just, every person is different. But I would say that if you know someone who's had, you know, a tragedy, losing a husband, losing a wife, losing a child, if you're shopping and that person is the other side of the road, take courage, walk across to them and say something nice about their, whoever has lost, whoever has gone. It takes courage and don't look the other way and walk, pretend you haven't seen them because it's the least you can do. Yeah. But just think up something nice or a happy memory of it.

Perhaps do something a little bit later to see them. And I think you're right. I think that thing about taking the courage and going to see them is really, really important. And how do you mother through that? Because I know that you're working at the same time through that very intense period of grief and you've got your children so how what's a good way to approach that do you think is that i suppose that's something that i think it's talking about it

and also um i mean it's years ago but i mean if we have christmas we always give a drink to William. And our grandchildren, little Hobie was, he's not so little now, but he was making rugger and he said he wanted to be the position that his uncle was, would it be his uncle, was in rugby because he's the same build. You they talk about it and uh they're proud of him and i suppose with families where you can see little trickle throughs of characteristics and things can't you in the next generation which can be really and also i think but again some people everybody has a different way they do approaching a situation. There isn't a rule. But you do seem to be a very positive person.

That's a real through thread of everything I've seen from you is that you talk a lot about feeling very lucky and feeling very fortunate and seeing the positive. And I think that's a really very special quality. It's a lovely thing. It's very, very comforting. Well, I go back, as you know I broke my hip a year ago and I honestly was at the end of my tether then because I thought I can't believe it

you fall over and I was forever telling people look where you're going don't fall if you're old um you know always take a rail and blow me if I don't topple over in the garden and break my hip. And it was, I never felt so awful. And, you know, you feel very lucky that, you know, the National Health were absolutely amazing and did everything. But even so, you feel so ghastly. but even so you feel so ghastly and I thought I'm never going to get I'm never going to get better here I am just hobbling along um I was quite down in myself yeah I think illness recovery can also make you feel very blue can't it yes anyway of course um we had a wonderful GP. Yes. And she said, it's going to take 18 months. I thought, it's not going to take 18 months. And of course, I then realised that when you're old,

it doesn't heal as quickly as when I see one of the grandchildren have a rugger injury and it's gone in a couple of weeks. But it does take time. And you have to be patient and do as you're told yes lots of exercise you know sort of physio and things physio and things but anyway but you have managed to come back with a new cookbook no but that's again you see i have amazing support from Lucy and Lucinda. You know, I kept saying, oh, I'm never going to, you know, whatever.

And they would say, take long strides, you know, hold on to the side. And, you know, they encourage you to keep going. And, no, you are better. You're much better. But sit up straight. It sounds like you've got this real lovely team, like a family around you of people you work with. And everybody's been long-term as well, which is really lovely.

Yes. Well, I said Lucy's 32 years. And Lucinda came straight from Prudleith and drove from London down to us, which was a good 40-minute drive. So shy. And now she's full of confidence, got two children and a wonderful mother. And she's here today with her lovely dog. Ah, so one of the dogs is her.

Yeah, that woolly one, the black one. Ah, yes. Because she couldn't get a babysitter for him. That's nice. It's nice to have such a friendly canine welcome. I've had lots of cuddles with the dogs already. I'm sure it's not hygienic, but there are three dogs about here,

so we love them. Well, I wanted to sort of close on just, is there anything you're looking forward to doing? Like, what's next for you? Because I get the feeling, I mean, your mother lived, is it 105? Is that right, your mum? That's right. Yeah, that's amazing. Well feeling I mean your mother lived 105 is that right your mum that's

right yeah that's amazing well it I mean again so fortunate that she was uh really well yeah and had no major um illness uh and she was just lonely and I think everybody should remember that on the whole people who live to a great age when the people around them have died they are lonely and it's very nice to go and see them

and we have a lovely housekeeper here looking after us because I'm away quite a bit and you know she's uh Alison was saying to me yesterday I dogs she sometimes takes our dogs out and she said I met a lady with a dog who lives in the old people's uh homes just behind us and they got chatting she said I'm very very lonely you know when there's only one and Alison said we'll come around for tea and I thought you know if you just a little bit of something uh uh there's nothing like talking to people um because

uh you know and also young mothers can be terribly lonely before their children go to school or play group they're all on their own with a child and um befriend them yeah no you're right because it can be very isolating those periods of life you haven't had time to be isolated i definitely felt it with my first i did i didn't have any girlfriends with babies and i i hadn't gone to nct or any of those things so i didn't really know anyone with a baby and i I waited nearly five years before I had a second one so that bit was a lot of time just me and a toddler you made up blocks I have yeah filled the house now I crave a bit of peace and quiet I was very jealous when

I turned up and saw your beautiful jigsaw puzzle on the table because I love doing jigsaw puzzles but um in the summer holidays we went away and I started doing a jigsaw and it was my project and then my three-year-old pulled it part of it off the table and i actually cried i cried for what it represented so that was my thing that was my my puzzle well you're very liable here to have a dog that jumps up on your knee while you're doing it and then bits go on the floor and then they go in the garden as you pass there are two bits i know i'm gonna have a go well um just to finish i was thinking on the way here that um i know obviously through the bake-off you're so synonymous with cakes and lovely things to eat and i know you make other things but your name could not be more

perfect to someone that is known for cakes and I wondered how life different could have been different if you were like Mary Potato or something but Mary Berry is just so perfect. I think I'd rather be a berry than a potato mind you but it's a baked potato split in half with loads of butter or crumb freshiche. Sour cream. Delicious. I'm with you on that. How lovely was that conversation? Honestly, I had just the best time talking to her. As I say, she's magical, actually, Mary.

Came away a little bit besotted with her. And she very kindly gave me a copy of her cookbook her latest cookbook of her 60 cookbooks cook and share and we've done two recipes i did the salted caramel cake and listen i am no baker but it came out really beautifully i would actually go so far as to say it's the best sponge i've ever made and she also had in there a recipe for vegetarian pad thai which we had you remember that one Ray? Oh well it was good it was good and easy and fun so I think that I would heartily recommend her cookbook it was really lovely but mainly it was just a complete joy to speak to her she told me after we finished recording she's only done three podcasts I think she's spoken to Fern Cotton she's spoken spoken to super games and now me so i feel very very fortunate that she was so

generous with her time and it was just a lovely lovely lovely conversation and a lot of it's really stayed with me which is what all the best chats do anyway editor richard is oh gosh sorry there's all sorts of noise yes definitely put it the bin. We can't be no little outs. Ray and I are still sitting on the bench. Ray's quite enjoying having a bit of independence these days. We came out by himself to get himself a nice tea and some Pringles from the shop and then we joined each other on a park bench to sit.

I know, you did ask me, which is nice, Ray. There you are, go and put it down the bin. It's certainly open cold. It's not that cold. You've got a t-shirt on. I know, t-shirts in October. Craziness. cold it's not that cold you've got a t-shirt on i know t-shirts in october craziness anyway thank you so much for joining me to have a listen to this gorgeous chat and who have i got for you next week oh next we've got dawn oporter uh who's just got a new book coming out cat lady so yes my

chat with dawn is next week and I'm expecting that will be popular because whenever I've said, who would you like me to chat to? Dawn O'Porter's name comes up a lot and she is completely fab and I love her very much. So that was a nice chat too. But for now, thank you so much. Thanks to Mary for talking to me. Thank you to Lucy for helping set it up. Thank you to Claire for beautifully producing the episodes every time. Thank you to Ella May for the gorgeous artwork every week. Thank you to Richard for editing and his

tolerance of my inappropriate locations for recording these bits with you. And of course, mostly, thank you to you. Without you, it would be a talk in the dark. So thank you very much. Have a lovely week see you soon Thank you.