Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 80: Sabrina Ghayour

Episode Date: November 7, 2022

Sabrina Ghayour is a British-Iranian chef who's written several books which adorn my kitchen shelves, about Persian and Middle Eastern food.  She came to the UK with her mum and grandmother in 1979 as a refugee. By the age of ten she was in charge of the family kitchen and after being made redundant from her marketing job aged 35, she stumbled into catering as a career, putting on cookery classes and supper clubs (where strangers pay to come and eat at your house) and she then realised that people (people like me!) wanted to know how to cook Persian food themselves.By her 40s, Sabrina had given up her childhood dream of getting married and having children and was enjoying her single life to the full. But just before Covid she got together with Steven, a divorced father of two boys, now aged 10 and 13. Sabrina and Steven got married a year ago and I loved talking to her about being a stepmother - a role which, let's face it, doesn't get the best press! Although Sabrina says there is no handbook for being a stepmother, I'm pretty sure she could write one. She makes it her top priority to let the boys have pride of place next to their dad on the sofa. She has a warm and teasing relationship with the boys but has also laid down some of her own groundrules, including that they all convene for dinner together, often with Sabrina's mum who also lives in their house.  After our chat Sabrina cooked some of her lovely food for us and I was left wishing that I had to convene for dinner with her too, on a very regular basis!Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, it is produced by Claire Jones and post-production is by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but it can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hello, welcome to the last episode in the series. That was nearly a song and then I decided not to.

Welcome to the first episode in the series no not first last oh brain um so after 80 episodes of the podcast I finally have a winner I didn't know there was a competition but it turns out there was because this week's guest Sabrina Gayle turned up at my house with food to feed me and my producer Claire with after we recorded so we have a winner isn't that amazing though honestly not only did she come and see me the day after she arrived back from Thailand but she also brought food and then cooked this delicious food after she arrived back from Thailand but she also brought food and then cooked this delicious food. We had lamb shawarma and lots of nice pickles and some nice dip things to go with pita bread

and it was all absolutely gorgeous, really really lovely. But the other thing that was really really lovely is that she said yes at all to speaking to me. Because I've been following Sabrina for a while on Instagram because I love her cooking. I already had a couple of her cookbooks. And I really like her cooking. And whenever I've done her recipes, they turn out really well. And I noticed that she was posting about her new, well, then boyfriend, but then also talking about his kids. And then when they got married

she put a really gorgeous post up about how much she loves being their step-mom and how she couldn't love them more if they were her own and I thought that is so lovely to hear and I know we've spoken to other guests that have stepchildren but I haven't spoken to anyone that is exclusively a step-parent and I thought it's really important to represent that. I have two step-parents and I met my step-dad when I was seven. I think I was about the same age when I met my step-mum and they definitely helped to raise me. And as you know, I've said this before, but there are many ways to have a family. There are many ways to raise a child and step-parenting is 100% part of parenting too. And obviously there are a ways to raise a child and step parenting is 100% part of parenting too and obviously there are a few little factors that are quite significant with step parenting

it's not as straightforward as some of the other roles it's uh you know it depends on how old the kid is when you when you meet them it depends on how custody is split you know how much time you're spending together. But it's really significant. And I think even when you're a grown up, if you find you have a new step parent, it's significant, you know, who you have in your family defines you, doesn't it? It's a big deal. And it's just so lovely to hear about Sabrina being so enthusiastic. And, you know, she was in her 40s when she met her husband and just seemed to completely get that being in love with him meant, you know, taking it all on and also loving his kids.

And I think that's really special. So I think you're going to love the conversation we had. And in the meantime, what else has been going on around here? Well, I've just been packing and I'm actually going away this evening. I'm flying to Australia tonight and of course it's not really tonight it's all of tonight all of tomorrow I don't actually land in Sydney till Saturday which is also the day I have my first gig I'm going over to Australia to do a little run of festivals which should be really really fun it's called

summer camp and it's a lgbtq plus festival i picture it in my head it's like a sort of traveling pride basically so we're going to sydney brisbane and melbourne happily for me richard's coming with me which is really lovely i'm actually doing the singing on my own we're not taking my band um so i've got my sound guy duncan but rich is coming along to keep me company basically so that's gonna be a bit of fun because i've got a few i think it's like 50 50 in terms of like work and downtime which is quite unusual normally they'll be a bit more on the work side so it's quite nice I get to have a little explore and it's always a treat going going to travel I think and this is my first bit of long

haul since pre you know what so that's all significant and I'm going to be a little bit boastful here I have packed hand luggage only I'm always stupidly pleased with myself even though I'll probably get there and realize I've brought like nothing I needed and I've left everything at home that would have been great to have but theoretically it's going to be good it's because I've got a few internal flights and I just get a bit paranoid about being separated from my stuff I like having my things with me please but that being said I have had to pack pretty teeny tiny so let's see let's see how I did um and we've also got a birthday in the house today uh which is the 3rd of November is my fourth baby's seventh birthday Jesse Jones and oh he was in such a good mood this morning it's really cute I've got a whole

little thing I always do putting some balloons up and a big number of whatever number they are balloon and and then on the table in the playroom we put all their presents and he got some cool stuff and he was very excited and he's gone to school with one of those big happy birthday badges so yeah he's very chipper being seven is going to suit him I can tell um anyway in the meantime I'm very much looking forward to sharing this with you and maybe you can just picture that while Sabrina and I were chatting I was having a lovely time chatting to her it made even more lovely by the fact I knew I was going to eat well afterwards hey don't blame me I like my food all right I will leave you in the food. All right. I will leave you

in the capable hands of Sabrina and I will see you on the other side. Well, firstly, I think this is maybe, maybe my 80th podcast chat but you've already won the informal game of the podcast which was you're the first person to come not only to my house

but you've brought food am I? yeah oh my god am I? so well done congratulations you've won spinning plates

bribe them with food it's the way forward it so is it so is so we can chat for like two or three minutes and then we can eat basically it works for me it's the persian way it's the owner i'm not i'm not i'm i've never been raised to come to anyone's hands empty-handed really and for my whole life of cooking and from my teens i always arrived at my friends' houses with food for the whatever.

But I don't worry. I don't know. I think it's because that's how I can, like, love people a bit. And like, don't worry, you know, you're a mum, you're busy, I'll do it. That's always been, and I like doing it. But then sometimes when I'm carrying the shopping,

I'm like, not today, but I'm like, why did I agree to this? Because, you know, I'll even work to see what they want to eat or what they're craving but yeah it's uh it's nice though I think so what you said when you're even when you're a teenager yeah I mean I would be like you know let's have a let's watch Greece this weekend and let's all pile in and I'll make mac and cheese or whatever it would be you know that's my weekend sorted as well then I was actually talking about greece this morning

were you yeah i can't nobody can watch that film with me because i know every single word i used to watch it with the sound down and do the dialogue i'm not even joking my mother would be like will you turn that stuff off and stop talking i can't i'm gonna literally turn it off if you don't stop saying the words but it's like mentally ingrained into you i don't think you know you're doing it and then when the songs start like it's just worse isn't it because the music just love it although i have to say because i was walking to school with my six-year-old jesse and i said i sang a bit of greece and then he said what's that and he said what's it about i said we have to watch it and i'm prepping it better this time because when i tried

to watch it with my now 13 year old Kit he was probably about 8 and he was very disappointed because he thought it was going to be about ancient Greece and you're like no kid this is like super super cool like stuff you put on your hair dude so with Kit

Jessie I was explaining and then I was like so Sandy and Danny as I spoke the plot is really bizarre it's quite twisted and then Sandy just has a whole makeover

just to fit in with Danny I know and then you listen to some of the lyrics of some of the songs and you're like oh that's that's a little bit

I don't think you can say some of those things anymore like ew that's kind of creepy it's called swearing I don't want to be left alone with that guy he's not that cool actually

it's true it's very true. It's different. Sorry, I went completely down a little, like, grease road there. But I can't be mentioned and not grip hold of that. But what are you up to at the moment? Why don't we start here and now? What's happening in your life?

You only just got back from Thailand yesterday. Yeah, yeah. So I knew that I was going to be away uh for a few weeks so I had to kind of make the rest element count um because I've just literally hit the ground running from today okay um so just got so much on trying to resume like book tour I had a book that came out in August but well known that August is not the time to do touring so for books anyway because everybody's on holiday so it happened a bit in September then I went away and then I kind of resumed between now and December so it's like supper clubs and meetings and you know pop-ups and cookery classes and you name it it's just all happening because you got a book you gotta do the

legwork so this book did you spot it on the bookshelf where my you got a book you gotta do the leg works so this book did you spot it on the bookshelf where my I did actually I was like gonna play that one cool I said to Richard this one she's gonna think I've placed these all here there's like three of your books on that show cool play cool don't look too long at the shelf so your current book is the everyday one is that yes yeah yeah and if I say Persiana, but is that right? Yeah, 100%. The only person that pronounces it wrong is my own publisher. She's American.

She says, sweetie, I'm just going to call it Persiana. And I was like, it isn't Persiana. So I've kind of given up, but everybody else seems to do it right. And with the supper clubs, is that you literally recreating what you used to do with having people around and cooking for them again um so I I've always been cooking in the house since I was a kid because none of my family cook like not at all my mother like if you ask her to switch the oven on you just literally have to watch her go into like the state of genuine

blind panic and anxiety because she doesn't know how to do it and it will take like it could take 10 minutes and then she would probably have like tears in her eyes and start wobbling like you know it's just not her domain and I realize yeah I think it's because she was kicked out the kitchen when she was a kid and a lot of, especially in cultures where either the family are strong cooks, they go, no, no, no, out, out, out, you know, and they don't let the children be in the kitchen. More so perhaps in, you know, previous decades, I would say. Now you're like hopeful that the kids are going to stay in there,

learn and take over from you. But in our case, we had a house cook, I think, from when my mum, because my mum's mum and dad were working. So quite common in some Eastern countries. Doesn't necessarily mean you're rich, but, you know. This is when you were born, is it? When my mother was a kid. So she was ousted out of the kitchen.

Oh, I see. And she was little. Yeah, so when I was a kid here in the early 80s I grew up watching like Ken Hom and Madda Jaffrey and was like obsessed with this cookery stuff and I loved Chinese food and I connected with Madda Jaffrey because even though I wasn't maybe I didn't know too much about Indian food. All the little plates and the breads and the curries kind of looked like our stews. And so Ken Hom and Madda Jeffrey had a lot to do with my love of food. And so I was probably took over in the house by 10 or 11 as the cook. Wow.

Because nobody else was into it at all. And my mother was like, you know, go play. She could see you had a passion and an interest. A hundred percent. You know, the WOC revolution was a big thing in England in the early 80s. We're pretty much the same age, so all your reference points are the same as mine. Okay, good. I'm glad.

Because you have to sometimes, there's that vague expression of like, huh? Sometimes. And people are like, oh, she's a lot younger than me. And, you know, Uncle Ben's was like, it was the first ready jarred sauces and things like that. So everybody, I think they said eight out of ten people owned a wok in England because of Ken Hom back in the 80s. And so I was just... It's just as well if you're a famous chef in those days,

you had such a direct line to like millions. Huge audience. It's not the same. Huge concentrated audience because we only had three three four channels i think three exactly yeah so um that really helped me because i would stir frying is like the easiest way to start cooking because you're just chopping things up you pick a protein if you eat me and then you pick veg and you know i probably came up with some horrendous things but i also learned how to make things like wonton soup because of Ken Hom because I've used

to pass this Chinese supermarket on the way to school which is crazy because it's not very common where I live anyway and pass ginger and garlic and you know things that weren't really in supermarkets that ginger was definitely a hard to find thing in the 80s yeah garlic probably was in there but so I just experimented and uh yeah having people over started cooking Christmas suppers I think that's probably like the traditional yeah because my grandma's idea of catering for Christmas just doesn't bear thinking about I think she didn't cook much as well no she didn't thank god she didn't because she did she did actually to be fair I think my memory has sort of pushed things out a bit because she didn't thank god she didn't because she did she did actually to be fair i think my memory has sort of pushed things out a bit because she didn't like cooking and she was a very glamorous lady

you would have definitely approved of her wardrobe um very very sort of stylish and you know young in the 50s with all those amazing dresses and whatnot um but yeah she didn't then when she came when we came to england in 1979 she had to because her husband had just died you know we were refugees moved into the flat that my mother had here and you're forced to feed to cook so but she didn't have to cook every night because we were always out as well other families houses and her sister was kind of the knockout cook of the family. So I had one person in a family of hundreds of people that is a really good cook. I guess you only need one if you're looking for someone to talk to.

Oh my God, I mean, I'm still writing recipes now. And then as I'm writing the intros, I'm like, this is a recipe of my grandma's sister. And I wish I'd asked her more. And I wish I came into this career earlier but I certainly spent a lot of time at her you know kitchen tables pretty much just maybe eye height the same side same height as the counter I used to steal a lot of meatballs she used to make like tiny little meatballs like and you know eastern types were really good like they'll spend the whole day in

the kitchen cooking and then freezing it and then or you know, Eastern types were really good. Like, they'll spend the whole day in the kitchen cooking and then freezing it and then, or, you know, batching it for whatever. So she used to make these tiny little meatballs like the size of your thumbnail. And I would probably eat...

They sound very pinchable, actually. Very pinchable. And she'd just fry them off. So I'd eat a few whilst they were being fried off so she couldn't tell. And then she'd put some on the platter

and I'd eat some of those just to cool down. And then she'd put the rest in the fridge and I'd probably eat more than half of them and then she put some in the platter and I'd eat some of those just to cool down and then she put the rest of the fridge and I'd feel for I'd probably eaten more than half of them and then she'd she'd cotton on and absolutely scream blue bloody murder in the house but yeah just all these memories um and she was married to an Iraqi so I had like the good the great benefit of like an added cuisine uh you know in my upbringing which was I mean their food is unbelievable it's so good so it's like double bubble really really great um and also for me hosting is something I was taught because when I was five from the time I was five my grandma

grandma would invite all her glamorous ladies for what I now know to be like full-on gossip girly sessions but you know when you're a kid you just don't know right and they'd be like okay thank you which would signal right you know off you go now and they were probably god knows probably worse than us I would say though that lot um but you know she would be like get the tray ready you know put the tea cups on there get the tea ready because when your aunt's come in, I want you to, you know, she'd encourage me and we would serve. So I learned from an early age that if your auntie runs out of tea, you ask her if she'd like another one.

Then you pass the biscuits round. Then you pass the fruit round. Then you pass the nuts round. That's very Persian. Yeah. We just, we don't have you in a house. We just constantly feed you, even if it's not a mealtime. This is great.

Even if you said no. Yeah, yeah. Like, just constantly. I'm down with all of you um but it's interesting when I when I heard that your mum and your grandma weren't really that interested in cooking it threw me a tiny bit only because well not least because obviously it's become so much like massive part of your life but also because I was thinking if you were a refugee, so you travel from around, in 1979, you're only two, normally the way you'd learn about your, like, my picture, the way you learn about where you came from

would be through the medium of food primarily. I know. And actually you're out having all sorts of other stuff. Yeah. So you're, I suppose, when you're that tiny, the notion of being a refugee, you only really would see that reflected in, I guess, your mum and your grandma. Yeah. So I suppose when you're that tiny, the notion of being a refugee, you only really would see that reflected in, I guess, your mum and your grandma.

Yeah. Would you about even... I mean, that should be. Yeah, you're just submerged in culture, aren't you? You're just getting on with the business of being you and you're that small. You're not... I mean, presumably you've got no memories of leaving.

I don't have any memories. And I'm quite grateful, actually, because those are not, you know, leaving your homeland. Even though, you know, we were very lucky that we were on a legitimate flight out of there rather than, you know, the horrible travesties that some people have to deal with when they're fleeing their country.

But, you know, we were on one of the last legitimate flights out of Iran. So I don't remember anything. What I do remember is being small here in England and having my mother as this great sort of catalyst for me to explore food and love food, because she loved different treats. And I'm not talking about Middle East and stuff, because that didn't really enter my memory from a young child you know it was teaching me how to eat chopstick with chopsticks um taking me to like Benihana you know which which now it's like yeah Benihana whatever no no that was really

exotic oh my god so exotic onion volcano with smoke coming out of it and they're just chopping stuff and throwing stuff around in front of you you know that's pretty that's pretty unusual in the 80s for kids it's pretty unusual now um and you know croissants which were not a thing here yeah she's like i'm gonna take you for this cool bread thing from france and it's got ham and cheese in it and i was like what oh this is great like you know so she got my appetite literally up for you know having a sort of thirst for knowledge and a hunger for the food as well you know just to explore things and eat different things took me for Thai food and took me for all different kinds of things that perhaps if she was just a cook that didn't want to cook at home and didn't like cooking we'd probably be eating really

safe boring things because she didn't she wasn't into it yeah so maybe I'm lucky that yes she couldn't cook but she definitely pushed the boat out when it came to introducing me to new things whether I like them or not I think it's brilliant I mean there's not many better ways to raise a kid than keeping them with their eyes open like that and like let's try this let's do that yeah I mean those are all the memories you've got now haven't you from when you were small that's really much and you're still super close to your mum yeah I still am she'll still fully drive 200 miles for like a good pie or something like that like 100% we are like should we drive to I don't know let's drive to Ilkley in you know in Yorkshire like another part of Yorkshire from where we live and let's go and get that sausage meat from the

butchers like you know because we are still she's quite adventurous she's quite young at heart and you know she would think nothing of driving somewhere to have a good rice dish or a a great pie or like a Kurdish you know mince meat roll or whatever you know like we're kooky like that yeah so why is it that your book centered so much on the Middle Eastern flavors if you're trying so many things. What was it that resonated? I think when I first came to the attention of other people as a cook, I was 35. It was 2011. My very first supper club was a joke. Like, it literally was a joke I made on Twitter, and it went viral, and it was in the newspapers the next day.

And I was like, oh, my God. Wow. And it wasn't a Persian supper club or a Middle Eastern supper club. It was... So what was the supper club? Just for people who don't know, you literally had people come round, didn't you? Total strangers coming round to your house is what the original supper clubs were. Total strangers coming round to your house for a set-priced menu where you couldn't provide alcohol because obviously you need a liquor license.

So they'd bring a bottle and then, you know, hopefully if they didn't rob you blind at the end of it, which they never did with me, but I heard some pretty ropey stories. But, you know, you kind of, yeah, that's how you can make a name or introduce a new food or whatnot. I didn't really know what I was doing. I'd lost my job working in marketing in the city. It was the end of the credit crunch and, you know, I took a hit. And so I did a supper club based on an American chef that was coming to Harrods to do a pop-up, Thomas Keller, of French laundry and per se.

And I'm a huge fan. So I was waiting the whole year to go for that announcement. And then just as they announced it, 250 quid, boom, I lost my job. And I was like, oh no, as much as I could go into even more debt to go to this, that's not really sensible. And I just joked on Twitter like, oh, you know, French laundry pop-up, it looks like it's a no-go for me. It's 250 quid ahead. God, I should probably just pop-up it looks like it's a no-go for me it's 250 quid a head god i should probably just do french laundrette and charge two pound fifty haha boom and then people like i'd go to that i'd go to that i'd go to that i'd go to that and let me know we need to do that i'd love to work there and i'll

provide you with cattle for the meat i'll provide you with cheeses and it just went and so we did it for charity because that was the right thing to do in my mind but it was nuts i was like plugging in my phone into the wall and it would like ringing all hours of the day for like four weeks wow so um yeah it was it was great did it wonderful people involved to help you know make it happen and then um somebody said to me, that was great. I'm so happy we got to attend that. But like, when are you fancy doing a supper club with Persian food? And I was like, what? They're like, yeah, you know, I've seen you cook a few things on like Insta, like, not Insta, Twitter back then. And I was like, really? You want Persian food? I was a bit

nervous because if you've ever watched Big Fat Greek Wedding, you might understand this. If you ever go to school with food of your own culture, a certain time, probably in the 80s and 90s, you would have most definitely be subjected to the, what's in your lunchbox? Moussaka. Oh, moussaka. Like, that's my entire teenage years at secondary school. Anytime that my grandmother was like, this is what you're taking to school. I'm like, noouskaka. Like that's my entire teenage years at secondary school. Anytime that my grandmother was like, this is what you're taking to school. I'm like, no, not that. Whereas now kids are like,

oh my God, yeah, I've got sushi. I've got like Syrian this and, you know, Mongolian that. And it's fine. It's totally cool. But back then it was deeply uncool and you'd get bullied and, you know, teased and whatnot. So I was afraid that people wouldn't like Persian food. But I was very wrong. Really, like, way totally off the mark, thankfully. And so I started doing them as a job, as an income. Yeah.

To make money. I had massive debts and, know suddenly lost my job and I had no I was 35 and I'm like oh my god I can't even buy like a lump of cheese this is so embarrassing I've never had that in my life because I've always worked since I was 10 you know delivering papers working in this shop flower girl you know all of these I've done everything and so uh yeah it took off but it was a hard sell at the beginning and nobody wanted to come to my house to eat food because they're like is it not in hackney you know is it not in south london it's a bit far west london because west london has this sort of yeah stigma where it's

just too far for most people because it's not look how easy we find it i think it's a little bit i think it's a little bit better now. But when I was like, Kensington? They're like, Kennington. And I'm like, Kensington. They're like, let us know when you come to Kennington. And I'm like, but I'm never going to come to Kennington because I don't live there. But then after, thankfully, after some, you know, hard work and spreading that greatest form of PR known to man, word of mouth, you know, I had a lot of business

and a lot of people will be coming and then I had to keep telling people no and that was the new thing that was freaking me out so how brilliant that people were so hungry for it in every sense how flipping brilliant because I think 35 is one of those ages where if you find yourself like everything's gone pear-shaped it's it's I mean it's devastating any age but at that age you're thinking I really should have this should have my stuff together yeah um it's bad bad timings but it's not it's not too late to sort of get a whole new career how exciting is that yeah I mean I always worked in hospitality so this is something that people don't factor in

I worked in hotels and restaurants and catering companies I've done every job in a hotel yeah so like if I ever have anyone be snooty about it I'm like yeah I did that I did that I've cleaned rooms I've done reception I've worked in reservations I've worked in sales marketing yeah all of it so I've worked in Pret I've worked in McDonald's I've worked in a Chinese supermarket like the list is long yeah which if I could get away with sending my stepkids to do things like that now like I constantly I guess I joke because they're not my children fully I can't really say that but constantly like when are you getting a job like I want some rent contribution wink wink you know they're like what it's like horrified and I was like I had I had jobs at your age and they're like what oh no that's not that's not even legal I'm like yes it

is or it used to be maybe so well you've mentioned your stepkids there because I was thinking you know with all the things that have the roads that have lead us today because obviously this is a podcast where I speak to working women who happen to be mothers. And I was really excited to speak to you because I feel we haven't really represented the step-parent community. And step-parenting is a huge... I have step-parents, a step-mom, a step-dad. I was very close to him. Sadly, he died a couple of years ago.

But I know what it's like to be a step-child in that. Give me hope, Sophie. Give me hope. Well, it's funny you say that. There's tons of hope tons of hope but also I was thinking well firstly does it how does it feel that that's now where you're at that you're a step-parent oh my god if you honestly if you spoke to me pre-covid I was in this wonderful place where you know I I will just tell you here, I had always wanted children and to get married. That was always like a, probably a crazy, stupid teen fantasy that then becomes a

little bit more real in your twenties. And then you think, okay, well, it's 30 and it hasn't happened. And, you know, that kind of thing. And then you just chill out about it. Well, I personally had chilled out about it. And I got to the place where I was 40 and I thought, hasn't happened. And you know what? I'm okay with that. Like, I love my freedom. I talk to my friends who have kids and partners and it's not perfect. My freedom is perfect, you know? And yeah, okay, maybe I'm not thinking about, well, I have anyone when I'm older and things like that, both from the partner and the child perspective, but whatever it is, I can get on board and embrace it. So I was like, 40s for me was about, I loved where I was at. It wasn't what I had chosen or what I thought was written for me,

but hey, you know, I could embrace the good parts of it. But then if you told me I would have had two stepkids from a divorced man, because I always felt like I'd rather die than marry somebody who was divorced in fact I don't even want to get married and oh no no kids you know that's where I was so I'd probably think you were crazy um but they always say it's like um life is what happens when you're busy making other plans and uh yeah it happened boy did it happen and it happened just pretty much. It peaked at the beginning of COVID. So it happened at a time where other things, other horrible things were happening to everyone,

you know, all around the world. But I'm glad it did because I love my husband and he is just the nicest, most decent human being I think I've ever met in my life. I don't know what I did to deserve him and his patience. And his kids are little monkeys, but I love them. I don't think I could love them any more if they were my own. The only differences that I'm still new and treading, because I've only been married for a year, is that it is like being a minesweeper it's a minefield yeah having step kids it's a minefield

having kids I think from what I am you know deal with other I spoke I've been speaking a lot to people that have their own children not necessarily step. But a lot of people, actually social media really has been good for this because a lot of people write to me when I just randomly do a post with the kids and, you know, they're like, oh God, I think you're doing an amazing job. I'm like, really? They're like, yay, I can see it. You know, you seem really loving and whatever. I think that kind of reassurance is great because I don't really know what I'm doing because there isn't a handbook for step parenting you just know to tread carefully yeah the most important thing at the top of that tree for me is to make sure they don't feel that you're trying to not replace their

mother you're trying to take their father away from them. That's the top of the tree for me. I definitely am not trying to replace a mother figure for them, so I'm not worried about that. It's very low on the list of things because, you know, I think they know that. It's not an issue. But there has occasionally been little whispers where I can see that, oh, I think he's starting to feel a bit like

maybe I've been with his, I can just see it, a little bit of insecurity momentarily. And I go, sure, kid, sit with your dad. It's all right. I'll move over. No worries. Like I always make it like it's no big deal. If you're jostling with that in your head, kid, don't worry. I'm not here to be clingy with your dad. It's your weekend with him with him it's all good like I kind of know my place well that's so lovely and sensitive of you though I do think that's a really a very empathetic I think it's really important because it is but that's a very subtle read you're doing there because what they're those little signals they probably don't even know that's what they're feeling half the time because kids don't really think like that they kind of I can just see them and it could be just me sitting on the sofa with

their dad and them just wanting to be, because they love and like worship their dad. They want to be the ones on either side of their dad. So I just move, I just shift. It's not all the time. No, but that's very thoughtful. And now a word from our sponsor, which this week is the brilliant, all-new Dacia Jogger,

which is an award-winning seven-seater car with plenty of space for family and friends. And I'm joined in this special segment by Kit, who's my 13-year-old, and Jesse, who is my six-year-old. Now, guys, do you think having a big car is pretty essential for our family? Yeah, definitely. It is, isn't it? What do we feel like when we're travelling around and we're all together and we need a bit more room? A bit cramped.

Can be a bit cramped, can't it? But... Feel a bit happy. You'd feel happy if you had more space? Yeah. What are you doing? We're talking about cars, Mickey. Do you think we need a bigger car?

More space? A small car. A small car? No. No, we're not having a small car. No, I want a small car. Yeah, well, there you go. Mickey wants a car.

Jessie, you have a big car and I have a small car. That's a good idea. Now, what do we like to do with our car? Drive. Well, drive, yes, but Mickey's three. And beep. I only ever use the horn. And beep. And beep. And beep.

Beep, beep. We like to go together to a lot of different places. We do. We drive to festivals. And we sometimes crash. Mickey, we never crash. If we would crash, then we wouldn't be here. Mum, I don't know. If we would crash, then we wouldn't be here. Mum, I don't know.

If we would crash, then we wouldn't even be here. And what about when we take it camping? We like to go camping sometimes. What about we go on a nuke? Yeah, on a nuke. Mummy, I want a small yellow car. You want a small yellow car? What about a big, datchier jogger? I want a small yellow car. I want a small yellow car. You want a small yellow car? No, we're not going to. What about a big, datchier jogger?

No, I want a small yellow car. I want a small yellow car. Okay, Mickey's going to have his own car. That's how much he wants his own space. He actually wants his own car. Because Mickey obviously entered the family when most of the seats were already taken. That's what happens.

And sometimes in the car, do we sometimes have to sit people so they're not sat next to each other? Yeah. Yeah, like, who do we have to sit apart kit and ray yeah we have to sit kit and ray apart this is god's sugar mommy mama yeah mama yes i'm listening this is god said and this is listening. This is Godzilla and this is what kind of car would Godzilla

drive? Godzilla because he's too big. He can drive a big, big car. And he could take it on adventures or I like it when we go camping with our car and I like it when we drive to festivals. I always love going to a festival

with you guys. We've had so many fun outings, haven't we? I think the Dacia could cope with taking us to festivals and could cope with taking us to our camping well thank you kit thank you jesse thank you mickey and if you want to find out more about the dacia you can head to dacia which is d-a-c-i-a.co.uk you can find out all about this brilliant car the dacia jogger and how it is built for adventure i think it could definitely cope with our family adventures. But also, it's so interesting because you literally used a word that I was thinking of this morning when you were saying about all the mines.

I was thinking it is a minefield because I was like, obviously, there's lots and lots of ways to form a family. You definitely do not have to have biological parents to form a family we know this um so I was like so what is it about step pairing parenting that makes it complex I was thinking well it's because you walk into a situation there's a situation that's gone on before you so you've got to kind of read that and obviously it's complicated because there's loads of variables you know how custody is split how old the kids are uh the nature of the reason why the parent is not with any you know all of these things

all of these factors but ultimately you have to come into it and you fall for the person you fall for and if they've got children i guess that just becomes part of the package right yeah 100 and it's no joke no what you undertake because you have to put, like, you have to put your shit aside. Like, you really need to park whatever issues. You have to divide all your everythings. Whatever you want to do, you have to look at it with a completely different angle 50% of the times because that's how often we have them.

And it's, you know, when I met my husband, I did my damnedest to put him off it's the only way it's the only way I can explain it I don't know I do this thing when I'm I my friends point this out you do this thing where you know you attract them all in good faith and then you know they they come towards you and then you do everything in your power to push them away with, like, not crazy behaviour. Don't get me wrong. No, but this all gets a bit serious. I'm not cheating or any of, nothing like that.

But trying to give them, like, shocking factors about me, things that would make them think. I guess it's a test. It's an insecurity thing to kind of, well, this is me and, you know, I don't want this. Do you still love me when I do this? Do you still love me when I do this? Do you still love me when I do that? I bet you won't.

So if you're going to leave, leave now. Exactly. Those are kind of not so subtle subtleties, shall we say, that a wall goes up a few weeks after, a few weeks after the settle-in, you know, that wall goes up to just test because you just think, oh, God, this is, I've had this, this has gone wrong before, I don't want to get hurt. Absolutely. You know, all of that kind of stuff. So I just was like, I don't God, this is, I've had this, this has gone wrong before, I don't want to get hurt. Absolutely.

You know, all of that kind of stuff. So I just was like, I don't know how this is going to work. And he was like, why? And I was like, because you've got kids and I don't like noise. And I was like, I'm abundantly aware that I'm sounding like the most selfish human being that ever existed. But I'm 40 something and I know myself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't think it's selfish at all as well, because you were aware that it's a big deal. It's a big deal. And, you know, people have different kinds of kids and different kinds of households. Of course. Like if I walk into my cousin's house, she has four sons that honestly I love like they are my own.

And they are wonderful, inquisitive, interesting, intelligent boys. But that house volume is like, because my cousin is loud. And, you know, that's just, but it's okay for them. Like, honestly, I can't hear myself think when I'm in that house sometimes. But I can say, because they're my blood, I can go, my God, all of you shut up, I can't hear your mother. You'm in that house sometimes. But I can say because they're my blood. I can go, my God, all of you, shut up, I can't hear your mother. You know, and it's not a problem. You know, they're like, no, auntie.

You know, we just love each other. But what is the discipline like with somebody you love and the relationship they have with their children? You know, a lot of things have changed because Stephen won't mind me saying, you know, he loved me in have changed because Stephen won't mind me saying that, you know, he loved me in a way that he wanted to make room for me and he always said to me, I know a lot of people say that nothing is as important as my kids

and my kids are everything and they will always be the most important thing in my life and nothing else matters. He goes, I don't operate like that. Of course my children are the, you know, my children. I love them and, yes, of course, they're my number one. But, you know, I see the place for you being almost joint that. So I will take a lot of what you say into consideration. And I just said, I'm so scared because I don't know. I don't want to

ask for the things that I want in case you find them unreasonable. And then we argue and then it's all over. So he's made loads of changes. And actually, I'm really tough. I'm a tough stepmom, super loving, super giving. Hope I never have to raise my voice. But I lay all the foundations down that I had growing up because I'm quite happy with how my parents, my mom and my grandma raised me. And I'm so I'm tough. And I'm like, you know, for example, when your grandparents ring the doorbell, you know, get up off your ass. No, no, I'm playing a game.

I don't care. Move. Go and say hello to your grandparents. Say goodbye to your grandparents. Your grandparents have just FaceTimed. Say hello and then go and do what you want to do. That's how I was raised. There's just some levels of common courtesy,

clearing your plate. And they hated that at the beginning. They were like, what? And I'm like, and I quickly nipped in there with the sort of Kevin and Perry, I'm not your slave. You know, I threw that on them before they threw it on me. And they were like, ooh.

So I think I was, maybe because I'm older and they're not mine, so I'm not run ragged and knackered like most parents are quite rightly so I was a little bit more probably better prepared um in some senses that I could go I know any minute now one of these days these boys are gonna go you're not my mother or you know I'm bored I bored. I'm not your slave. And I thought, so let me just do it first. You know, I will just get it out the way so they can't say it because I'm just like, well, you're just copying me now, you know, so you got to be clever with them. But I do always, no matter what I say, I go, the only reason I'm saying this is because

it's a bit hard for me, boys. I do the cooking, the cleaning. Your dad does the laundry and this. And sometimes on top of work, it's difficult. So I want to explain why I'm asking them to do this. Not that I'm just enslaving them in some kind of strange child labour, but just understand, kid, there's a reason that parents ask children to do these things. Even though they don't care, it will set it in there and make, it kind of softens the blow for them a little bit.

I'm actually just sitting here feeling very impressed by you, actually. Don't, don't. No, I am. I'm really impressed. Well, there's a few things that are impressing me. First of all, I think it sounds like you and your other half walked into this

as real grown-ups, very conscious of setting up something that could actually, is a proper family environment. And I think that's a gorgeous thing for the kids because what you're talking about there is not, the strictness, I don't even think that's strict. What you've done there is just provide a tone for the house because it's the household that they live in too.

And every house has a tone. Even if the tone is equally you could say it's really would be really tough if you didn't take any role because then you're not really engaging the fact that you say say hello and goodbye to your grandparents is is something that you care about and you want for them to be part of that as well I think I think that's I honestly think that's way less tough than the bit where you're that you don't take it on because you don't see them as children you're partly raising, which you are because, you know, I'm raised by all of my parents. It sounds like a weird sentence, but my step-parents raised me too, 100%.

Yeah. So all those things, they all factor in. So I think that's brilliant. But also I'm thinking, geez, I do too much for my kids. I really should talk to my kids about what you said about the sort of mental load of all the other stuff that goes on. So I think children don't always understand there's a whole world out there. And sometimes you're doing it because, hey, it's your childhood. But other times I'm like, actually, it's good for them to understand that everybody's putting their weight and doing stuff.

So I think, yeah, I'm impressed. How did you have so much you knew you wanted to do when you thought you were thinking you weren't going to do it at all? I don't know. You know, the one thing, when I was younger, every free partner I ever had and people that were just related to me were always like, you're going to be a really good mum someday. And I was always like, yes, I want to have a football team of boys I always

was like I grew up you know and a lot of girls want girls I was like well god no I couldn't think of anything worse only because I was suspicious that they'd probably turn into me and that's probably not something I would it would just be hard work to monitor because I'd be like I know you've been smoking or like whatever nightmare that I drove my mum mad for and she was chilled not that she's chilled when the bad stuff would happen but she just knew that poking an angry bear isn't a solution and you've just got to kind of this is you know the rite of passage and you've got to accept it and say I'm here if you need me and you know make sure you call me type thing and just be good. I'm not like that.

But I kind of knew, I don't know, maybe years of watching Supernanny as well, things like that. And kind of talking, I've learned a lot about body language with children. And I know, for example, with my eldest one, he doesn't like to be embarrassed. He doesn't like to be shouted at in front of other people. Yeah. And I've literally in two and a half years probably shouted three times. Wow.

But like when I do. That's really serious then, isn't it? It's frightening. Yeah. But the only times I actually have, one was disrespecting me and the other two was disrespecting their dad. They wouldn't dare disrespect me.

And the other one was because he was flustered and I was just like, calm down, kid, he's like, no, no, no. And he was shouting in my face. Yeah. And, you know. Every family has flare-ups anyway. I mean, that's what happens. I mean, 100%.

But this is where you revert to just being a person and not a step-mom anymore because you're not used to it. Having someone shout in my face for long enough, then you forget you're a step-parent. You're just this person with somebody screaming at you and then in order to silence the situation, you start screaming at them. Absolutely, but it happens as, you know,

my kid's parent, you get that thing as well, where you're like, hang on a minute, I don't feel like coming home, this is just unpleasant. i just i don't want i don't like this i might be good at it but like i don't i don't i don't actually like confrontation but i'm good at it if i need to be but it's not what i choose so it's like it's lesson learning every day um and trying not and trying to treat them as two individuals because they pretty much hate each other right now, which is totally, I'm guessing from my conversations with other people now and their children,

that it's common. But I didn't know. They absolutely hate each other. And then there was a picture that I recently posted this weekend that got loads of attention. It was both of them when they went to, you know, they're from Newcastle and they support, you know, Newcastle football team, mad about football.

They went to the match on the weekend with their dad. And there's a picture of Connor, the eldest one, you know, with his arm around Ollie. And I was like, oh, they're so cute. I was like, yeah, but that probably meant he had him in a headlock, really. You know, there's never, that's not common the affection thing but I do try and treat them as differently as possible and understand that Ollie doesn't like certain things Connor doesn't like certain things and when I ever tell them off even if it's just a soft you know like please don't do that I will make sure I pull them apart because the other one will use it against him so I just go no go away no I'm having a word with Ollie off you go no I won't let one

use that as collateral against the other to kind of tease him so I'm careful I mean you said like it's quite hard there's no handbook so where do you I should write one yeah go for it and it's like 150 blank pages it's just a doodle chapter one how to handle them like a picture of me shrugging chapter two how to deal with a me head and hands just like a picture special historically stepmothers haven't come across great in culture no i call myself step monster yeah there you go my husband is like don't don't do that and now i'm like why and he's like because you're not a step monster and you don't want to give them the idea that it's okay to repeat that in public and i'm like oh oh okay you know they go oh you know my step monster like step monster is he being abused or like yeah so i have to be careful but you know

we've got like evil stepmother just generally speaking stepmothers it's time for there to be a little bit more of a balance i think and how they're represented because it's often seen as this as you say quite predatory yeah and I think you were so astute when you said about not just about you know this concept of replacing the mum but actually about the steep having the dad yeah I think that's really astute you know if it's I think it's important to not dilute I think children of a divorce especially one where they're just about old enough to sort of know that a divorce is happening, even if they didn't know why or what for or whatnot, they know it's happened. I wouldn't say they're damaged because I don't like

that assuming that somebody, I'm a child of divorce and I'm not damaged by it, you know what I mean? Yeah, you don't know any different any different do you I think there is a division of parental guidance and it's important to make sure that you're kind of showing them that it doesn't need to be too different and that there's stability stability stability I'm always trying to do that always trying to get meals at the table like I'm really you know kind of a stickler for that because also I never grew up having that myself oh that's so I want so you haven't yeah the roadmap for that as well is different isn't it it is a little bit different and or also and a lot would have just been because our living room didn't really have space for a dining table you know what I mean like that would

have literally been my reason for that so um I I think it's funny because sometimes especially on weekends we try and do this where there's a little bit more time and I don't have to create two meals at night one to suit the boys when they come from school and one to feed the adults um we try and just do it a little bit earlier than my comfortable meal time so we do do it like seven, half seven, because we eat like half eight, nine. I'm quite late with that. And so we sit down and then they love my mum. They think she's, you know, batshit is the funny, you know,

they think she's a little wacky because she says some really funny stuff. And I actually had enjoyed enjoying them listening to her and laughing because I think she's funny. Well, how nice is that, that relationship developing? It's nice. enjoyed enjoying them listening to her and laughing because i think she's funny well how nice is that that relationship developing it's nice and i i tell them tell them really funny things like i'll give you a fiver each if you call her grandma gay or and she hates it she's like tell him to stop calling me grandma and i was like here you go over for you over for you like you know she's we've we've taken them llama to llama farms with my mom and like

oh the shenanigans that go down we go you know we've done halloween parties and family face paintings and like stuff that you know i haven't had maybe you know i'd had with my mom but that bigger family setting yeah and like really kooky stuff of dressing up the house and doing crazy things at christmas and um we play you know there's this little game on the mobile, Heads Up. Oh, yeah. Have you seen it? We play a lot of Heads Up. That's the one with the, like, it's basically like,

who am I sort of thing there. Yeah, you've got, you stick the phone in, and it's like an animal or something like that. And, you know, having my mum act out what she thinks. Oh, that must be brilliant. That's hilarious. I'd like to play that with your mum. Literally love, they love that.

So she kind of gets involved. So it's good for her as well because I said to her you know you've become a grandma she's like I have not but actually she has a particular bond with the younger one because I think the older one is a teenager yeah every now and again he'll give her a little window in um but you know she's a lot like the younger ones well that's nice yeah it's crazy I was thinking obviously your husband came with his kids, but you came with your mum. I did. I mean, quite frankly, my mum could easily peel it back. But my husband adores my mother, which is quite frankly, really annoying sometimes. But he's, he's done a lot to make her feel like she is welcome in. I mean, it's my house, but that she he just always says, you know, your mum's lovely and, you know, they're not going to be around forever. So, and I'm thinking, what a nice man, you know, like,

just gives me more reasons to love him. The good thing about my mum is she tends to spend all her time, and yes, she does have the biggest bedroom in my house, my house um because she has a little office in there and she's like skyping her friends or walking around the garden facetiming people around the world and like she's living the life of riley sounds good and she's not a homebody so she likes to be out when we like to it doesn't clash shall i say so never never the twain shall meet or at least not very often anyway we are kind of all convene for dinner sounds good yeah it's nice actually just crawling back so you say how on earth did you actually meet someone during the pandemic i should probably find out so i met uh

steven through a friend a persian friend and um and it was quite a strange one because we ended up connecting online after that and then he was like I live in Durham and I was like that's not too far I live in Yorkshire and like London and then I don't know we pretty much started dating quite quickly but I didn't honestly I was just like you know COVID's come in it's crap I don't you know I'm feeling a bit lonely not more for just conversation not like you know for dirty text messages and exchanges I'm not that I'm not really into that I'm too I'm too old to find that enthralling should I say um but we've all been there but I can't be bothered with that. So I just wanted some nice chat.

So we had quite a lot of online dates, should I say, because of COVID, right? Yeah. So I'd be like, right, get these ingredients. I want to teach you how to make a proper spaghetti bolognese, not what you think you've been making. You know, just joking, because he says I make spag bol for the boys, and I'm like, oh, how do you make it?

Babe, that's not a spag bol. You know, so we'd cook together and then sit down and eat it. And I thought, actually, that's probably the best kind of contact, because you're having a proper face-to-face with somebody, granted that they're not in the room. But we had loads of lunch dates and dinner dates like that, and a couple of pissed ones, I think. That actually sounds very intimate as well, isn't it?

Yeah, it was nice. The distraction of a restaurant. I think I regret the ones that involved gin online mostly because I just remember waking up in the morning going, no. We're just dancing and singing because, you know, COVID grabs hold, right? So there's a lot of kitchen discos. Yeah, and then he just pretty much moved in um just ended up started staying with me all the time that he was not with the boys and

and he was working from home and so it's kind of incredible isn't it looking back you're probably fast-tracked a few things because you're having that that direct contact and communication without anything else going on where you could just have all those big conversations, because you're not really messing around in your 40s, are you? You're like, is this going to work? If you're going to jump in, you jump in with all of you. Yeah, I didn't want to get married. You didn't want to?

No. I think I didn't trust marriage. How does it feel now? I love it. Yeah, yeah, I love it because the one thing that I remember listening to everyone that I was ever married and I respected in my life were like it's no different it's like you the same with a ring on your finger and a piece of paper it's no different and it is no different um I think Stephen made me less fearful of marriage because when I

met him I was I don't want to get married I don't want to get tied down I don't want to I don't want to I don't want to part of the whole scare you away process yeah so he was like okay all right whatever you want to do then that's fine he was so laid back and I kept thinking huh he's not he hasn't legged it yet this is so strange so he was very gentle and patient. And he said, listen, ultimately, I could see myself marrying you. And I want to marry you. And I have a divorce behind me. But it still gives me the faith that one day I'll marry. And, you know, it will be the right thing forever.

And I was like, OK, we'll see. And then one night on one of those kitchen discos, I got supremely drunk, which didn't take much, quite frankly. And yeah, he proposed. And I was like, what? And then I totally forgot, got into the dancing spirit, asked my mum as well, if he could propose to me. I woke up in the middle of the night and I was like oh my head is sore my heart is throbbing oh my god did I get engaged last night and I remember and I just I said to him in the morning I said did you propose last night and he went yeah and I was like I can't remember I just remember it happening but I can't

remember what you said and how it went down and he was like don't worry i feel dead and i was just smashed crying and then getting up and just like dancing to like 90s classics in the kitchen it was so funny that is funny that's amazing you actually got engaged during like a zoom or something no he was in no he's living with me no we were having i thought even during the pandemic he said the kitchen disco i was like no we were having a kitchen disco but he was in, no, he's living with me. Oh, I thought you meant to. We were having. I thought you meant during the pandemic. We said the kitchen discos. I was like. No, we were having the kitchen disco, but he was with me. Okay, okay.

Because it was lockdown and we couldn't go anywhere. And I just said, I need a night out. But seeing as that's not going to happen, let's have a night in. Okay. So we just played. I'm glad I clarified that. Lots of like. It's still amazing.

Dance tracks and, you know, my recapturing of my youth. And he filmed a lot of that as well, which is quite embarrassing. There's a lot of rapping happening. I actually do think being married does feel a bit different, but maybe that's just me. Really? Yeah. Do you feel more grown up?

I mean, not so much like now, because we've been married like 17 years now. But I think that first year I was like, oh, it did feel like a shift. Maybe it's because my parents had a divorce when I was little I think I had to think a bit I always knew I wanted to get married to Richard but then I was like oh what is what is marriage really about and then I think it felt like a lot of little things like I don't know stuff you might have bickered about worried about kind of fell away because the big bold stuff is we're on the same side with the majority we've made that decision and I think that that mattered yeah maybe to me but maybe I guess everybody's got a different

relationship with what that that is and that's quite personal isn't it yeah I mean I honestly don't give it too much thought but some days I I still am of the telling myself I have a husband yeah yeah I'm somebody's wife well you can't be a bit like yeah or like oh well i actually went really traditional like i know i am quite traditional and i think no i'm quite surprised and i think you know his his parents were probably going oh you know she's this famous chef or that's what they think i am that's not what I think I am I'm like oh my god no like I'm just a girl like and then like probably thought I had all these like well I need this and I need this and I need this and I spent like three and a half grand on the whole party and like

you know totally forgot the flowers until two days in advance of the wedding there was only 20 of us and you know it was fun yeah just so not low rent but just so chill and lovely and just it really wasn't a faff at all and they were like so are you gonna keep your name I'm like no I'm Mrs Lynn but if I change my name on my books nobody's gonna buy my books because they're gonna be like who's this booze Sabrina Lynn no I don't know who she is so I said for books if that's okay can I keep and he's like oh my god of course yeah yeah but I said I'm gonna literally change the day and marry you I'm gonna make sure everybody knows I'm Mrs Lynn and I am Mrs Lynn but for social and things like that I'm Gayor Lynn so people don't think I don't follow this person. Who is that person?

And, you know, so, yeah, I'm quite traditional like that. It sounds, it's just so exciting that that can all, all this can happen in such a relatively short space of time, but with such, such huge commitment and passion. And I think, I don't know, it just sounds like there'll be so many people, I'm sure, that will be so inspired about the idea of becoming a step-parent and and just finding that family proper family it's not just a role it's a thing you're actually living it's a lifetime commitment it is because it would cause instability for you

to not think about it properly before you entered it not your instability or your husband's that's a whole other ball game but it would be a you know, upheaval for the kids. So, you know, and there are times that I think, I can't do this and it's just too much. Homeschooling was a joy I'd never experienced. That's fun, isn't it? I did have a complete, like, meltdown and was like, I can't do this.

This is too much. We shouldn't get married. Oh, my God. And I completely panicked and threw all my you know toys out the pram um but I think yeah moreover like in my husband's and I and I's case you know I don't get to go on holiday with him until unless the kids are with us you know until they're 18 or old enough to do their own things because we have a commitment to show up pick them up 50 of the times so some days he drives 200 plus miles to pick up the kids take them to school you know and then

drive down to work and then pick them up from school and then drive back home that's over 200 miles in a day wow several times a week wow and then taking them to football on weekends those are all his commitments that he has undertaken by having children and doesn't complain about. Yeah. Because that's what it is. And I can't either because that's what I've accepted. Yeah. And I understand that that's my,

not my job because he never makes it my job. He never asks for anything. But it makes me want to do things for him and go, honey, let's look at the calendar. And okay, that's half term, right? I'm going to be here. I won't be working. I'll make sure I'm there. I was going to ask you, how has it changed your relationship,

your work? Yeah. So he would never ask anything of me. He would quite happily suffer in silence if he needed something, but I make sure that I'm around for the summer holidays, particularly Christmas holidays is easy because you know, we don't work around that time. Um, but then the half terms, the half times, the half terms are the doozies that catch me off guard me too um so I always try to be there um around those times because even though he now actually works from home again so it's it's a little bit easier but I want the kids to sort of know that if their dad goes out I'm there you know um to to at least sort of look after them feed them feed them probably the most important thing. I hope it changes anything about your cooking.

Yeah, so when they met me, they hated my food. Oh, no. They hated and I was soul destroying. And I remember... That's brutal. It was brutal because they've just... But when they met, they just basically didn't really say too much to me for months. It was an observation period, I now realise.

But I was just like... Because I always said, you know, I always thought kids love me because people tell me kids love me. People are always like, oh, my, you know, my daughter's not like that with anyone. She loves you and is always like, when's Auntie Sabrina coming round? And I had always been that person. And I was not that person for these boys. They were just like, and every joke that I,

because I make a lot of jokes and I tease the kids and like, you know, constantly like tell them like yeah well obviously you have to pay rent if you're living here and they're like what what you know I've always been that kind of to the cheeky person to have a little bit of banter with them but um they uh yeah basically just were like kind of giving me funny looks I can show you what this face is but it's like oh god and I'm, he doesn't think I'm deeply uncool. They're like, oh, like so cringe. And the food, unfortunately, yeah, it didn't fly.

Like I had a pizza oven and, you know, these outdoor ones as a savior, which, you know, I was lucky. Most people don't have one. I had one through COVID and I'm like, it's burnt. I'm like, no, no, it's not burnt. That's what theians call bruchata and they're like it's burnt you know because they had a thing about burnt food that if it if it that's that's the thing you know if food has black bits on it it's burnt they don't understand chard they didn't eat this they didn't eat that they didn't

like spice they don't eat pork they don't eat chicken one doesn't eat cheese but eats but cheeseburgers and eats um you know uh that plastic cheese on things and he's fine with pizza but if you tell him that mozzarella is a cheese he hits the roof you know the other one peels the crumbs off fish you know fish fingers like there's so many quirks yes and none of them match each other so whenever you're making you have to make about 17 different things. Now I am into a routine and it is a routine because I hear that parents also get stuck in like five things on rotation.

I'm in that accidentally. I'm also in that because I know it just has a success rating. So there's like the, you know, tandoori chicken thighs. And believe me, if every now and again I remind them that it's thigh meat, they'll probably go, because it took me a long time to tell them I am not using breast in this house unless it's attached to a whole chicken. I want them to understand that chicken thighs, A, more economical for me, I'm a mum at the end

of the day, and B, they they taste better so it took me a long time but what i do love about them now um is they have quite exotic palates and i've never forced them to eat anything i i've asked them to try because i don't want to create trauma for them it is trauma you know we all have traumas of being forced to eat things all of us can't eat cottage cheese because my home ec teacher forced me to eat it can't can't you know um so i just say kid i'd be really like if you tried it i'd be really grateful you don't have to like it i'm not going to be cross but i will be more impressed with you if you at least give it a try this is what's in it. This is nothing scary.

Now they love spice. I do Jamaican nights, Thai food nights. You know, they eat jollif rice, this African red rice, but they call it red rice. They don't know what it is, but they love it. You know, we eat Persian, Iraqi, Indian. I'm constantly having nights of foods from a different culture just so they kind of understand it's a good

rotation yeah this is rotation i'm in i mean i try there's a it's kind of like they're like okay we're done now like spag bol is not allowed in the house because they've had so much of it and they loved it that they're a little bit bored of it so i do variations on they love kebabs love kebabs those kids and they love homemade burgers which is like the easiest thing ever meat smashed salt pepper bun we don't even bother with chips that's enough for everyone wow I need to try that actually that's a really good idea I'm getting some good ideas here have you just to finish on there is there anything that you've learned that would be helpful that you'd wish someone had told you about the road to being a lovely stepmom if you If you are a lovely step-mom, I can tell that.

Thank you. Not sure they would agree. I would say really, really think about it in the early stages of your relationship. If you're with a partner, you're really going to have to put your whole plans with your new love aside. Like you really will.

It still frustrates me to this day that I cannot be alone with my partner for very long, for longer than two or three days. That's the tops. And it's not just the kids. My mother's there as well sometimes, you know, but with my mother, I can go, you know, you're going down to London. Great. Right. I'm just going to have a weekend with Stephen. Really think about that and how willing you are to be selfless. Because if you want to be selfish and you deserve to be selfish, because maybe you haven't had that in your life, then put yourself first. I'm all for people putting themselves first because we don't

really do that enough in life. So that's one factor. But like where you see yourself losing your temper and maybe doing things the normal way that you've always done them, you might have to think about things quite differently. And if there are multiple stepchildren, I think it's really super important to understand each one's individual quirks, preferences, and build your discipline and also your structure of what's acceptable as love. Like Ollie will let me cuddle him every now and again, and it will become a bit of a joke because he'll be like, oh, get off. Connor will just go, look at me and go, I don't think so. So I'll still joke about it with him, but I will always, even if they don't let me be physically affectionate to them, which I understand because they're boys and like gross girls,

I still reinforce messages of love. Even when perhaps at the beginning, hadn't quite got there yet. Yeah. I think consistency, care, and also explaining why something's not okay in a really calm fashion, usually after the fact, because I need to calm down. You know, sometimes there's tears on my end and I go lock myself in a room and go I'm gonna you know kill him I'm not obviously gonna kill him please don't write in um but you know you have those feelings and I always speak

to Stephen about my feelings because I'll just go oh my god I just I like in my head that like today they're particularly hyperactive for example they haven't been but you know I would say like oh my god I have visions of me like wanting to knock their heads together like coconuts and he goes oh yeah yeah it's totally normal parents do that all the time I'm like do they but because you're not a natural birth giving parent you're not sure you feel guilt there's a lot of guilt so get ready for the guilt get ready for the feelings of inadequacy and incapacitation, because you're not sure if you can do this, or you're not sure if you're doing this right. There's a lot of that, but give yourself a break. I think you basically also just described being a parent full stop.

100%. And I think... Lose all your free time. Lose all your free time. Occasionally want to kill them. Have to lock yourself in a room crying, saying, I can't do this. I mean, I would have to say that I think full-time parents are going to walk in the park 50% of the times they're really not honestly I think everybody understands that it's it's complex raising a kid full stop it's complex

when you've got any relationship raising someone it's a big deal but I think step parent thing is a very delicate thing but maybe there's also so much reward. And I'm thinking when you were saying, you know, you got to your 40s and you were like, right, actually that whole idea I had about, you know, getting married and the kids, I'm actually not that sure about that. I'm actually really happy. My life is sorted.

And now you find yourself married, stepmother to two boys, but there's probably lots of things you learn about yourself in all of that so much and i'm also just praying i keep telling my husband and i keep saying it in front of the boys because it's more of a joke than anything else i'm just praying for you two to turn 18 and bugger off and they're like what no because and i'm like yeah well you know when you're living one day you know when you're living with your girlfriend and they're like uh no i'm like well who are you going to be living with dad i'm like in your dreams dad and I are going to be in Thailand just so you know setting the expectations we are not going to be here anymore you know like and genuinely like a

part of me is like do not get it twisted I'm going to be like running off into the hills singing you know this is the dawning of the age of Aquarius when you guys are free, you know, because I want, I do want my time and I'm constantly, this is the other thing I will say to a step-parent is, if you're coming into somebody that's already a ready-made family, you have to make sure you're being very genuine with how you feel about your needs and expectations. Now, I'm lucky enough that I've done whatever work I needed to understand that my needs are, it's okay to get my needs met as well if I'm providing for other people. And I do tell my husband, you do know that I'm biding my time with you. I'll give all my love to your boys and to you because I expect at some stage in our lives for you to be free to travel with me and for us to

do things that we couldn't do because we had small children in the house. You do know that. Like, I'm constantly, and he's like, yes, darling, I do know that. And I want those things with you. So make sure that your vision of you in 10 years' time lines up with the one that your partner has. Yeah.

Because if it doesn't, you're going to feel like you put all this effort in waiting for your sweet reward at the end of it and you didn't get it. And then what are you going to do? Yeah, and resentment is an ugly thing. And it could be the end of a relationship for no reason. Be real with your expectations on both sides at the beginning. And then, you know, I think that's just standard advice for a relationship.

Make sure you know what you're getting into be real about what you want don't be surprised if you know suddenly someone says well it was always this because you didn't discuss it you know discuss constantly constantly discuss things even if they're uncomfortable oh you're a very smart woman I'm not though you are a bit of a basket case and I don't feel I wish I could be like yes I'm actually writing my thesis on this step parenting luck but I'm not I'm like literally learning every day how to deal with one boy or the other and their relationship with their father but also how to guide their father into treating them in a way that works for me and supports my discipline and you know without making him feel uncomfortable either so it's like it's a minefield honestly it's like a pinball of shit it's like a pinball machine where everything you bump into has a temper tantrum or an attack or a

personal offense taken or an upset or an apology you know it's constant so you're also in the complex bit with having boys both in double figures if they're 10 and 13 yeah that's the most complicated bit isn't it who knew I never knew boys had that age like a like I know girls can be vile as teenagers because I was one you know we and it's also well written nobody tells you about this period my husband has reliably informed me from seven till ten when boys get a shoot of hormones and start acting and acting I was gonna say acting like little twats because that's kind of how I am I'm a very foul-mouthed stepmom but I don't let them ever swear and I say you know when you're because I

don't know I'm a chef and I worked in the city you know come on I can't I can't be who I'm not I can not swear at somebody's mum's house but at home I'm quite awful but I always with them when they first went to swear and I'm sorry what did you say they're like um I said I said oh I thought you said that but then I thought no because you know that you're not allowed to say those things. And they're like, but you do. And I said, you're right, I do. And that's not great.

However, I also pay the rent. I also own this house. I also pay the bills. And when you do that, you can do whatever you like. So I have that kind of relationship with them. And yeah, it's a mishmash. I just, it's, you know, there's a hundred million things to figure out.

But what I do know is I, my life is all the richer for having them in there. And I laugh about things I couldn't possibly have laughed about before because they weren't too quirky, inquisitive, downright cheeky boys, you know, before, but they are absolute smashers, the pair of them. And they are, you know, really, really lovely, even with all their mind-numbingly annoying flaws, which I'm reassured by other parents, by real parents, it's totally normal. I think I've probably got quite a good deal, really. So God help us, the teenagers.

I know. Also, you know, all of that stuff, that's just a human being. We're all quite common. Living with people is always, it shows us everything. I just want to hide. I'm just already nervous because they don't know it's coming, living with people it's always i just want to hide i'm just already nervous because like they don't know it's coming but i know it's coming yeah and i know exactly what i'm gonna have to deal with so i that that scares me a lot but i think i probably have to

reconvene in like 10 years time two of us and talk about that how it all went yeah me too i think i think the weird thing about the teenagers or the pre-adolescent and all of that is sometimes they don't know why they're having the big feelings they're feeling they don't know it either

so when you sit and look at them and think why are you being so moody they don't always know why it is and also do you remember that thing when you were a kid

and I don't know you'd go to a restaurant and they'd maybe give you the kids menu and you were like no I should have the adults menu but then you also want to be

if they gave you the adults one you'd want the kids one you don't want to be left out of anything exactly you just want to put in both camps I think that's the hardest thing you really have to go over and above to make these kids feel comfortable because if you give them black they want white if they want you know white they want black it's just crazy there are no rules and just because it's happened it it's turned out that way once that doesn't mean that that's also going to be okay the next time absolutely you give them chicken once they love chicken the second time oh i hate chicken i've never eaten i never eat chicken

oh my god somebody just shoot me now it would kind of so yeah you have all the same conversations in this house yeah well i think you've given us so much wisdom. And now I would like you to please cook for us. Okay, Gibbs. See, here is a household where nobody's going to moan about my cooking. You're kidding me. I'm so ready for it. No, no moaning.

Just excitement. Happy days. Joy. No crazy palates to deal with. No, no. You do know I don't like this. Yes, Ollie, I know. I'll tell you something really funny

just before we go. My youngest son, he's got the weirdest habit. It's disgusting for everyone else at the table. Anytime you serve any kind of meat, he has to have mint sauce with it. Oh.

He puts mint sauce over it. I don't think that's that weird. Everything is disgusting. Well, firstly, I like mint sauce. And secondly... On chicken, on sausages, on beef, on lamb, on on everything i get that really yeah i mean i had mine was ketchup but we're basically just adding something sweet and also i quite like the vinegaryness of mint sauce as well and nobody

at the table likes the vinegar that nobody wants to sit next to when he's opening the mint sauce ollie did you say he just literally puts it on his spuds just pours oh have you ever had it on baked potatoes it's really good no no well you know what don't knock it until you've tried it

oh jeez sorry please don't be put off from step parenting from anything I said and please don't at me no me neither

especially not about mint sauce unless it's a thumbs up emoji see how lovely was that and you know what I really like about how Sabrina talks about it is it's completely the real deal of what step-parenting involved. It's interesting, actually, because it really made me think a little bit more about my step-parents and how it must have been for them stepping into my childhood, into my life. And it's so true what she says.

It's actually not that I was thinking, oh, my step-mum or my step-dad is going to replace my dad or my mum. You're not thinking like that because you're like, well, I've already got my mum and dad. Their place is pretty darn set. I think it's more about, yes, that subconscious thing of you thinking, are they going to, are they taking the attention away from me? Are they taking my parent away from me? Because particularly in the fallout of, you know, a passionate marriage leads to a passionate divorce, as my mum always said and in the fallout of that your relationship with your now single

parent is really significant you want to know that when you're with your mum or with your dad that time is special and you're having that time together so having a step parent that really understands that you need that from them is really it's really lovely to hear it articulated and I don't know if I really thought about that aspect of step-parenting until I heard Sabrina talk about it. But also how lovely that she was so clear about the boundaries and about the fact that she was coming in to help parent rather than just be like their dad's girlfriend.

You know, she obviously thought, OK, we're going to have a family life here and it's going to be consistent and it's going to care about you and it's going to care about the kind of person you're growing into. You know, obviously, the tone was set by the dad because that's his children, but I just thought that was really great that she kind of had a clear idea of how they were going to be a family and find their new dynamic. And it sounds like it's been a really happy thing.

So I really like that. And that actually concludes the whole of this series. Can you believe it? That's the end of the series eight now. Wow, it's like two and a half years of these conversations. Thank you so much. I really, really, I know I bang on about this all the time, but I really do love doing my podcast so much. I get very really, I know I bang on about this all the time, but I really do love doing my

podcast so much. I get very, very excited about it. I'm always thinking of new people. I'll read a new story. I'll see something on my phone. I'll hear someone talking about someone. I'll meet someone at work and I'll think, wouldn't that conversation be great to share? And I've already got a lot of lovely, lovely guests already secure in the diary for the new series but you know I'm going to say here please keep your suggestions coming to me I really really care about what you think and I also I've had some of my favorite interviews with people that weren't my idea and I do read through all the comments and I think oh yeah good idea I check people out um I try and get hold of folk you know it's sometimes

people don't want to do podcasts that's fine but isn't it so exciting when they do because then I'm like yes lucky me I get to sit down with this incredible woman and have a good old chat and I've loved it and I've got some amazing people lined up already and I want to say a big thank you to all the people that help make the podcast possible so my team as you know it's small but it's mighty we have the brilliant Ella May who does all my artwork and has done from day one so that is the aesthetic of the podcast and she's a complete delight to work with so thank you very much Ella May love your illustrations every week I have my wonderful husband Richard who is my. So he goes through all this stuff. He makes it sound good.

He takes out the coughs, the chair scrapes, the banging on the tables, the kids in the background. He makes it sound lush. And my fantastic producer, Claire Jones, who's been with me since day one. She has totally understood, you know, completely like what we wanted to do with this. We've both been on the same page. She's enthusiastic she's incredibly professional she's why the chats actually sound proper rather than just me talking into my phone like I do a lot of the time with my introductions um she's brilliant all that she

does the most beautiful notes after every episode so that it's all clear for everybody working on it what's going on and I think most actually, she's a proper cheerleader. Every time I have an idea about a guest, I'll send it over and she'll be like, whoop, whoop, sounds like a good one, and comes back with really good ideas herself. So thank you very much, Claire. But obviously the biggest thank you of all,

well, my darling, it's you. Thank you for giving me your time. Thank you for being part of this lovely little community. Every time someone comes up to me and says they love the podcast, makes my heart do a little jump i absolutely adore it and i will keep thinking of new folk there's so many more people out there so series nine will be back i think i mean the latest will be january if i'm really organized i might do it before christmas but i think i might just leave it and do it in the new year I feel like new year new series makes sense to me and let me get my ducks in order

and do some recordings for you before then so if I don't speak to you beforehand have an amazing Christmas I hope you have a really peaceful season and have some lovely people around you and thank you for lending me your time and your ears and yeah lots of love to you

and have a great time wherever you're up to and I will see you on the other side bye I'm each step with Peloton from their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton

all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running.