Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 84: Sara Davies

Episode Date: January 30, 2023

Sara Davies is the warm-hearted, fast-talking, hard-working entrepreneur you will know from Dragons Den. She still lives in the same village in County Durham where she grew up and is married to Simon who she started dating when she was 15. They have two boys: Oliver and Charlie.We met up at my house a couple of hours after her weekly QVC appearance and we talked about looking in the camera during zoom conversations, being 100% present with whatever you’re doing, her early struggles with breastfeeding, and her Dad’s questioning as to why she is still working so hard now she has a family.We also talked Strictly! About how she had to learn to let down her guard, and wiggle her bum; how she fitted in her dance training by starting it every day at 6am, much to Aljaz’s horror; and how ‘Uncle Aljaz ’ has become part of the family. We agreed it’s never good to ask people to when they’re planning to start a family. And I tried to flog her an idea she’d actually just come up with herself - and I have the proof here on tape, that she told me “I’m in”! Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing It can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions I want to be a bit nosy. You can talk if you want. I'm with my mum. You're a good mum. We are just catching our breath because we nearly missed our flight.

We're off to Aberdeen for a Burns Night event this weekend. We're staying in a fancy hotel. We booked flights at 11 o'clock. We've got a tube here and it was a mistake it shouldn't be no we had a very long wait at one station and it's a run through and push past people and now of course the plane isn't actually boarding yet even though it should technically be flying in about 10 minutes so now if anyone sees us that we push past they're gonna think we're just making up but really if you let me and my mum go in front of you thank you thank you it was very stressful um so sorry about the noise but this is this is where we're at um how are you so this week is a lovely guest. I really liked her. Sarah Davis, Dragon's Den entrepreneur and the founder of Crafts Companion, a wildly successful craft business here in the States,

employing, I think she said, 300 people, annual turnover in the tens of millions, very successful woman, self-made, mother of two little boys, and a really, really lovely woman who, she came round to mind, was completely smiley and lovely to everybody in the whole house, you know, met some of the kids, very open, very warm, and you can see she's just a real champion of what people can achieve if they set their mind to it. just a real champion of what people can achieve if they set their mind to it so i think you're gonna come out the other side of this feeling enthused and optimistic which is also how i'm feeling now that we made our flight see you on the other side well it's so lovely to meet you properly so i feel like we've got a few degrees of separation in our lives of people we both know but it's really nice to meet you in person thank you no it's lovely to get out this is the first time I've done an in-person podcast in over three years really so it's lovely

to actually sit and chat in front of somebody and see the white of your eyes even though it's you interviewing me well it's very nice for me too I'm glad you've broken the seal on yeah face-to-face ones again um it's much nicer when it's in person from my point of view I like it it's very nice for me too. I'm glad you've broken the seal on face-to-face ones again. It's much nicer when it's in person from my point of view. I like it. It's much more personal, isn't it? Yeah, and you get the conversation. And someone told me that when you're doing things remote,

there's like a microsecond delay that can mean actually, like humans, we're so attuned to measure emotion that actually just that little delay is what can cause, you know, that sort of clunky feeling you get sometimes. I know exactly. And for me, it's looking people in the eyes. Yes. So whenever I do Zoom interviews or anything, I actually look straight into the camera

so that the person at the other side feels like I'm looking at them. But then I miss seeing them. That's all for their benefit. Yeah. You're missing out on the eyes. I am missing out on the eyes. But then you try and look at their eyes. Maybe they're looking. And their eyes aren't looking at me because they're looking at their computer screen nobody's

ever done it the other way around i was gonna maybe well if they're staring at their camera too they're just two people staring at cameras very true i've never met anyone else who stares into the camera like i do though it's definitely unusual i'm normally looking at myself thinking is do i look like i'm looking is have i put my hand there oh what's in the back of my shot maybe I should move that shelf I know what focus do you know we had a pitch in the den once someone had come up with the idea of putting the camera in the middle of your screen oh yeah that's smart I thought it was absolutely genius I don't think the product worked very well so I didn't invest but the concept was there yeah I'm gonna get to work on fine on fine tuning the product this afternoon I'll invest, if it's decent I'm up for it

watch this space and you come fresh from QVC yes so literally I was live on air just a couple of hours ago because you said you've been doing that for 20 years over the course of 20 years you've been visiting QVC and selling your wares that way so it's funny because I've always done

TV but not proper TV, in inverted commas. That's what my little sister used to say. You don't do proper TV, though, do you not? But I think having had that grounding, you know, before I did Dragon's Den, for example, I'd done 15 years on shopping TV. And I think they're not used to, I remember them interviewing me for Dragon's Den. And I'd done loads of investing before. I'd been on a panel of female investors. So I knew all of the investment. And I had all of the TV skills I'm used to you know where to look for the cameras I'm very aware of all of that more so than I think you even need

to be for Dragon's Den shopping TV is a very good grounding for any type of TV and so I think the producers got quite a shock when when I got on set and I was quite natural on set they've had people who were more used to the TV, but not as used to the investing, or they're business people for whom the TV is such a world apart. So it was, let's just say it was an easy transition in for me. Yeah, but actually that's really interesting because I guess what you're doing when you're talking about your business, so it was primarily crafting, you've got that very pure dialogue if you're doing talking about your business so it was primarily crafting you've got that very uh pure dialogue if you're on the tv and it has that cozy at home feel where people could be that you feel like you're talking to them and that became the medium to actually sort of get

people to understand what you're doing what they could buy to make their lives easier yeah and that reminds me a little bit of um before we started recording, we were both sharing our love of Mary Berry. Oh, yes. And she said that when she was first on TV, she was quite awkward, and then someone said to her, you have to imagine the other person on the other end is maybe someone, you know, a woman doing her ironing.

This was like the 50s or whatever. And she could be flicking to any channel, but if she lands on your channel and she feels that you're just talking to her, only her, you'll be engaging with her. And I guess that's kind of it. Someone once said to me, it was an on-air trainer, and she said, it is a privilege that they've invited you into their living room. They could have picked any one of hundreds of people to invite in right now and they chose you and always see it as a privilege. And I think I always had that feeling and so when we go and I've been through years and years of training

and the QVC style of selling is called over the back garden fence so the idea is that you're supposed to feel like you're chatting to your neighbor over the back fence telling them how awesome this product is as a channel they're not about look down the lens and the whites of your eyes. I'm going to tell you, you need to buy this product today. It's more a conversation. And so a lot of people watch QVC or the various shopping channels for companionship.

Yes. And that's the difference. You've got them on in the corner of the room for a bit of friendship. You get to know the presenters. You get to know the guests. You find out a little bit about their lives and they become a bit of an extended friendship circle that's how you then build the trust

and then as long as I know that whenever I go on whenever I go on air I'm only ever selling my products so I can stand on air and say do you know what this is brilliant and you are going to love using it and I know that because I made it so I made it so that I know you're going to love using it I'm not just saying that and I think because I've built a relationship with those people at home and they trust me yeah and when they do get their product home they do feel that way and it just extends the friendship so I feel really and I do always feel privileged that they chose to invite me in and I'm the one they chose to be friends with it's not a it's not something where you know I get to go on tv really is a privilege yeah no that's a lovely way I like that over the back garden fence idea as well that totally makes sense to me and i think

you're right about the companionship i mean and no disparaging way to the shopping channel but whenever i've stumbled across them i do always feel like i might possibly be the only person watching but that's probably that's how we're there making you feel exactly it's working for me but then it's really cozy and by golly you do get kind of hooked up richard bought um not one but two matching sets of these very sharp knives from a shopping channel very late at night once we're still using them now they did actually work but it was just so funny you start off thinking oh this is quite funny and then you're like actually that looks really great i need that in my life and for you the person the other end who you're picturing has that community

or that person that you're talking to kind of changed over the years? Do you know, it changes depending on where I'm presenting. So I present on shopping channels all over the world. And I make a big point of getting to understand who the customer is. And not only understanding who she is from their marketing decks and they'll show you presentations. I like to go places where they will have it. So, for example, Ruth Langsford she does a lot of presenting on QVC and she had a great um an exhibition last year and I remember going along to that event because I wanted to understand better who the QVC UK

customer was I do more with QVC in America so and to understand the slight difference in that customer so that when I'm on air I know who I'm talking to and I'm picturing what she's like and I say her because it's a handful of blokes and all the rest of women and so I'm picturing what she's like but when I'm in Germany for example I present really differently on QVC Germany to what I would do here really present really differently on a QVC here to I work on a hobby maker channel for example who are very specialist just in craft whereas QVC is a bit more generalist everyone seems to have heard of QVC no one's ever heard of hobby maker channel for example who are very specialist just in craft whereas qvc is a bit more generalist everyone seems to have heard of qvc no one's ever heard of hobby maker but if you're a hobbyist if you're into your crafting my word you'll know exactly who they are yeah yeah and so what were you what's what's current what were you up to today with qvc oh we've always got a bit

of everything so coloring's been massive uh during the pandemic loads of people have taken up craft during the pandemic so a lot of what i'm doing on qvc at the moment i really get started in crafting kits so everything you need if you want to start doing coloring or everything if you want to start doing your card making we had in there and some really basic machines if you really wanted to get into it so a lovely mix i do every wedding stay at 11 o'clock on qvc now i have the tune and i love all that kind of stuff i'm quite crafty oh hey I tell you what give me watch me for half an hour you invite me into your living room half an hour and then you'll be giving me a call for a little box of stuff it's happening already I got you

right in front of me I'm like count me in 11 o'clock on Wednesday I'm there um and this has been like a a lifetime that you've been doing it in your lifetime since you were at uni right that's when you started the business is that right so I went off to university to study management because both my parents had a little wallpaper and paint shop in our village and my kind of life plan I thought was going to be I really like business I enjoy helping in the shop so I'll go to university and learn how business should be done I'll come back and show my dad a thing or two that was my plan right motivation so I went off to uni and I did one of those degrees where you do a couple of years studying,

then you go and work for a year and do your last year studying. And that year, because I had been dating my boyfriend since I was 15. Yeah, I heard about that. Is she a prospect of coming to London? This is the boyfriend who's now your husband. Now my husband, 23 years later, we're all going strong panic.

I love that. So, but yes, but the prospect of coming, I mean, I'm a real but the prospect of of coming I mean I'm a real country bumpkin so coming down to London and having to live away for the year filled me with absolute dread so I found my own little placement and I went and worked for this tiny little craft company and it just opened my eyes to this industry that I had no idea existed I absolutely fell in love I fell in love with the customers and I thought I want to start a business here and my dad really encouraged me to just do what you want kids you know if you want to do that you give it a go

and I always had in the back of my mind if it doesn't work I can always move back home and you know live with my parents and help build the business up and I was lucky in that Simon's a few years older than me so he was able to pay our mortgage payments when I first started the business so it meant that I didn't have to contribute to the family income so I could really give the business a good go and that's how I got started so is your dad now like he's seen you running like a multi-million pound business and he's like I think you've made your point now sorry about our business it was probably about 15 years ago and I think so the scary thing was my dad's always been in business and my dad's done all sorts he's done literally everything from double glazing sales to growing mushrooms in the basement to buying bikes at the car boot sale and doing them up and having my grandma run a bike shop.

I saw him do everything when I was a proper real entrepreneur, but never had a big business, never had more than a couple of staff. And I started Crafters Companion when I went back for my last year at uni, the last year of studying. crafters companion when I went back for my last year uni the last year of studying so I started in the October and by the time I moved home in the summer my business was already turning over more than the family business that had been going for 25 years at that point and so I was turning to my dad for advice and support on building the business and I remember him looking at me one day and he just said kid you've long outgrown. I can support you in any way you want, but I can't show you how to do this anymore. And then a few years ago, we had a real heart-to-heart.

He was getting quite upset that I was... It's when I first had the kids and he couldn't understand why I would travel so much and leave the kids at home. He could see that the kids were struggling with it. He could see I was struggling with it. And he's like, but you've been so successful and you've made all this money. Why do you go to America to do QVC why wouldn't

you just stay at home and get one of your staff to do you know I've got 250 staff I've got 10 other people that present on TV why would you not just do that and I said dad you don't understand it's that business is my third child and and I love what I do I absolutely love it I said so I'm just trying to find a balance. I said, and it's not even about I'm trying to give the kids a great life and so I'm working hard to pay for that great life because we've kind of surpassed that now.

And that's what he couldn't get his head around. You're not, your life, you can't give the kids any better of a life for now working away and traveling more. But I just, that success is like a drug. And I want the business to be the best it can be you know and I I want I want to achieve as much as I can in my career but I want to balance that with giving the kids a great life as well and so my life seems like a constant juggle and he couldn't

understand because when I was younger he worked really hard so that my mum could be the mum at home and she wasn't a stay-at-home mum he set her up a little business so that my mum could be the mum at home. And she wasn't a stay-at-home mum. He set her up a little business so that my mum and my nana worked part-time. And then so they could, there was always, if my mum walked me to school, my nana would be the one to pick me up. And they had a lifestyle business. They built the business around the needs of the family. I started off that way,

but then the business got 100 times bigger than that. And now I can't flex the business to suit the family. I need to flex the family to suit the business. And that's the bit that my dad always struggled to get his head around yeah but those things are so they're so personal as well those decisions and we've all got the things that drive us and also the things that make us feel like a whole person yeah and clearly for you the business as you say like your your third baby but also just the thing that made sense to you about what makes you thrive and feel that zingy thing and have the energy and the spark in your head and all that good stuff i love what i do and especially you know

shopping tv in america is another level to anything else you've seen and we're doing literally you want to half a million pound of sales in an hour and and so I fly out there and I just think I've got this you know 250 mortgages get paid as a result of the sales I make on tv and the the pride that you have of having built that company and I know that I can go out there and I've done a big product and I can go and launch it and we can sell thousands of units on that one day and make the company really successful which creates more you know prosperity and more employment that's amazing and I know that if I do that and and I do a half-hearted job by somebody else going and selling that product on air I'll be really frustrated that we didn't do the best we could and I know I can do better yeah always

that's always the thing that drives me is I want to do it because I know there's nothing like me I've invented that product I want to go and tell everyone how awesome it is yeah it probably just doesn't have that same zing if someone else tries to step in and speak it how you've how you found it it's not the same you'll know if you if you've ever watched any of these shopping channels there's nothing like hearing the person who invented the product standing up there and telling you why they made it why it's going to make your life better. And I think that's what, that's why I love shopping TV so much. I'm a product person. I love to design, invent and make product. And then I love to go and show the world why it's so great. Yeah. And I guess for you, everything is just sort of blossomed to another bit and another bit and

another bit. And it's still like, well, where did these roads lead me? It's exciting, isn't it? To see what might happen next. No, that's the problem. And I feel like that's the conversation I have with my dad. He's like, well, you've got the business road. And then when I started Dragon's Den, I obviously built an investment portfolio. And, you know, I've now done four seasons. And that investment portfolio keeps getting bigger and bigger every year. And that takes a lot of managing.

But that's so exciting in and of itself. So was that not the case before Dragon's Den? Is it quite literal that that brought you to invest in things that you weren't necessarily? Yes, so I'd done a little bit of investing. So in my early 20s, I got invited to be in an all-female investment group in the North East called Gabriel Investors. And the proposition is there's loads of investment groups all over the country, but they're nearly all men.

I'm not going to lie, there was one other one that had women in their group that we knew when we researched. So this was when I was in my early 20s, 15 years ago. And I just thought when women approach things, we seem to approach it in a different way. We don't just want to invest in those businesses. We want to nurture and mentor and support the business owners at another level. Hence, we called ourselves Gabriel Investors.

So it was like we were business angels as opposed to Dragon's Den and the Dragon's Den that's what we always used to say so we're like Dragon's Den but we're angels instead and that's what got me into investing so I'd done a few investments in my early 20s but only a handful and it had really it had taught me about investing and how investing works but not at the pace and speed you know I do 18 days in Dragon's Den and I'll come out half a million quid lighter and with about 10 new businesses in my portfolio is it a bit like getting business drunk do you know that's a great way to think about it when I'm with the dragons next time I'll say that we've got really because the BBC just wheel them in on a conveyor belt yeah it's brilliant someone

else has done all the work to go and find the best budding entrepreneurs in the country yeah vetted them helped prepare them help them work out how to give the perfect pitch and then they sit us down in those chairs and wheel them out in front of us one at a time it is just as a business investor there is no better setup at all yeah it's pretty peachy when you put it that way it's like okay just sit back and see what bring me the next one and it's brilliant telly and i mean it's funny you can tell within the first couple of minutes with most people if you think that they seem like that potentially people worth investing in terms of the actual entrepreneurs i mean product aside i read a quote i think you'd said you can have the best product with mediocre entrepreneurs and it won't work but even a mediocre product

with brilliant entrepreneurs be fantastic I stand by that all the time I know within a couple of minutes of them walking through them lift doors if if I'm interested in that product or the service or whatever it is they're offering and if you'd asked me before I went on the den you know what sort of businesses I would probably have been like oh yes it's got to be product businesses and I'm going to you know I'm only going to invest in ones that can be scaled this way the things that I knew and then actually I look I mean there's one business in my portfolio they're a franchise business and I never thought I would have been interested in that service model and it's first aid for kids but the the woman Kate and her husband they walked through the door and their story was so compelling and they were such

incredible passionate entrepreneurs and they brought their six kids in the den and they were getting their kids to demonstrate the first aid and I just fell in love with the business and the people and you can see I mean I know how I can take your business to the next level I know how I can help parachute it and it feels a privilege for me to get to be involved in their business and help them go to a new level that's the thing I love about the show and it also feels like just the very face of business has changed pretty radically and that now that whole idea of if you're a business person it seems that mentoring is very much part of what a lot of people bring alongside it. So helping other people.

But when you started, was that so much the culture in business? Do you know, it wasn't. And I've got a really interesting view on mentoring because I've got loads of mentors and most of them have no idea I even exist. of mentors and most of them have no idea I even exist they are I've the view that I take to mentoring is yes there's people you can sit down with face to face but then if I look at for example QVC when I first started out I wanted to get really good at shopping tv so I would watch hours and hours of the shows and pick the presenters that I love the most and then I would psychoanalyze why do I like you so much? What do I think is brilliant about you?

And actually, are there any things that I don't like about you that I might take out? And I would try and model myself on those people. And I see that as almost a kind of mentorship. So for all there wasn't as many mentors around in person, maybe when I was starting up in business, that they were brilliant. Another great example, Duncan Bannatyne, one of the the former dragons before me never met the bloke in my life I read his book

when I was in my early 20s and it really connected with me on such a deep level that I felt like do you know what if he can do it no reason I can't there's nothing special about him he's just an ordinary Joe like I am I'm just going to go and do like what he is so he was a bit of a business mentor to me although I'd never met him and I didn't know and people always they'll reach out to me on LinkedIn and they'll say oh can you mentor me and I think you don't really understand what you're asking you don't know what you want you just think I need a business mentor they're kind of almost looking for a sort of golden a solution yeah yep they're looking for someone lifting them out and yes

sometimes mentor uncle Tuka I call himuka, one of the other dragons. Fantastic business mentor for me. And I do have, you know, I'm lucky enough to sit down in his office with him a couple of times a year and talk to him about business. And he really helps me in that way. But not everybody has the opportunity to do that with someone. So I think there's always an option out there. Well, I guess what you're talking about there is as well,

the kernel of being an entrepreneur in itself is looking for the opportunity and how you can find it, even if no one's sort of had that big yeah big hand in the sky pointing down at you and offer you in on a plate life doesn't work like that you've got to go and sort it out seek it out for yourself and it's not for everybody i mean i think it involves sacrifice it involves drive it involves tenacity it probably involves no plan b would you say i'll tell you what's really difficult for me often and it's i remember when i first had the kids and i would and i would go to the mummy groups and i'd meet the other parents and they'd say to me you're so lucky that you're running your own business and you you can work the business

around the kids and you know i have to go back to work when my kids are a year old and I'm going to have to just do a nine to five or whatever it is. And I would smile through gritted teeth because I think that's the perception to the outside world. Yeah. And I think they don't, people don't see the sacrifices. They don't see the stuff you have to go without or how you have to work. You know, I was back to work after three months of having the kids.

Now I've tried to balance. I only went back part time, but I couldn't have had longer off well it just wasn't an option for me and I think quite often the reality of business I always say to someone being in business or running your own business it's it's not a job it's not a career choice it's a lifestyle choice you are wedded to that business you and the business are one and the same thing and you've got to be prepared for that lifestyle. And I think that's maybe one of the things I find when people come in the den. Have they got that or haven't they?

Is this a job to them or are they as passionate about this business as I am about my business? Because if they're not, it's never going to work. Yeah, and I guess that's, again, quite a bespoke thing, isn't it? Because for some people, they might be very wedded to it, but also work out that they need some boundaries about how they balance it. But that's very personal, that decision. It's personal and it's difficult. You know, I'm really lucky in that I had the support of Simon, my boyfriend, then now my husband,

that I was able to give the business my all when I first set up. I didn't have a mortgage to pay. I didn't have dependents to worry about. I could literally live, sleep and breathe the business. And he got a tiny look in from time to time. Whereas I think a lot of people, if you start it when you're in a different point in your life and you've maybe got kids or you've got a mortgage to consider, it's a totally different consideration and you can't give the business your all. And I was lucky that I could give the business my all at the time when I had my all to give. And then when I got a little bit older and I wanted to have the kids and we ended up putting off having kids a little bit later than I'd planned because the business was taken off a

bit more than I expected but then when we did it I was like just remember the whole point of having the business is that I wanted to be able to I wanted to start the business early so that I could do that when I had a point in my life where I could give it my life and then now the business only gets part of my life because the kids and the family get a bigger part of my life yeah so your kids are now in nine and six is that right yes Oliver's the oldest and Charlie's the youngest two boys sweet yes and so what was going on when you had your eldest do you remember so yeah I was 29 when I had Oliver and my plan was always to have kids probably in my early 20s I started the business when I was 21 and so because the business had really taken off we put it back and put it back and so it was probably I was 26 27

when we decided right we'll we'll try we'll not try but we'll stop not trying you know that that phrase when everyone's in where we say that time oh we're not going to start trying but we'll stop not trying. You know, that phrase when everyone's in, where we say that time, oh, we're not going to start trying, but we'll just stop not trying. Stop the birth control and everything. And there I am a week later, a guzzle and folic acid, like it's going out of here. Not telling Simon though,

because we're not really trying. We're just not not trying. Yeah. And then we were not really trying, but I was trying for about a year. And I was like, oh, I thought this would kind of just happen by now. And then we were two years on

and I was like, oh, I really thought it would have been a bit easier than this. And I remember it really started getting to me. And I talk about this a lot in my book, actually, and it's something I never really opened up a lot about. But I always remember it was that thing of I thought, oh, I'll be pregnant this month. And then I'd get my period and I wouldn't be pregnant and I'd be distraught. So I'd eat myself to oblivion for the next couple of weeks and then I think oh my god I'm putting weight on here this is not good but never mind because I'm probably going to be pregnant this month so it'll be fine and then it would come around I get my period again and it just went

on like that for months and probably about a year and I remember it was Christmas that year and I always have the world and his wife around for Christmas dinner I always host everything and it would get to that point when and I'm always really conscious not to ask people are you not having you're not thinking about starting a family because you don't know where they're at now I remember having been there and it was that Christmas and I'd served up a lovely Christmas dinner and here's the thing I was my period was due on the 21st or the 22nd and it hadn't come I got really excited and then by the time I got to the 23rd 24th still hadn't come was doing pregnancy tests they were negative but I'm thinking oh it still could be it still could be and I woke up on Christmas morning and

had my period and I was distraught absolutely distraught I had to pull myself together put on a dress that I clearly couldn't fit into and squeeze into with two pairs of spanks felt rubbish about myself put Christmas dinner on for 15 people. And we got to the end of the dinner and my dad said to us, well, kid, that was absolutely perfect. The only thing that could just top it off and make it even better next year would be if we could have the pitter patter of tiny feet. And my husband just put his hand under the table and just put his hand on my knee. And I give me stock line that I always would.

Dad, you know, we're far too busy with the business to be thinking about kids and that was my defense mechanism I never knew anybody wanted to know I didn't want people to know we were trying because I didn't want the how's it going you know yeah and especially you don't talk about with your parents because then you have to I don't want parents to think about us having sex you know I just we think about so so I would just never talked about and I never told anybody and it was it was boxing day my sister came around and she clearly got worried about me weight and so she said I was thinking why don't mean you start slimming world and I could tell what she was doing so I was like oh okay then no problem so she got us the magazine she signed us up and she says we'll start now and she was going home she lived down south at the time she was come back up the next week she came back up the week later and we got waiting she'd lost two pound and i put a pound on and she was like you're not even trying

what you're not trying for and i broke down crying i was like helen we're trying for a baby we've been trying for a couple of years now it's not happening i'm absolutely gutted about it i haven't told anybody my dad's making it worse you know and um do you know anybody else who's just giving us a big hug and said oh they're there it'll be all right and she didn't and she looked at us and she says well this isn't helping is it not she's feeling sorry for yourself she says eat no she says your mind's not in a good place your body's not in a good place you're overweight you need to get your shit together basically and she said right we're going to do and she put an action plan together with us she was really hard and she says stop trying for a few months we're going to go on slim and well together we'll support each other you can lose

a bit of weight stop and trying means you'll stop fixating on it you just have a couple of months off best thing anyone could have done for us and three months later and when I wasn't trying fell pregnant with our Oliver wow wow well firstly I'm thrilled that you ended up having your baby and secondly I think there'll be so many people that relate to that particularly that thing of not wanting to talk about it and dreading the questions and I actually don't really understand why people do ask questions about people having well of course they mean well but if someone's not bringing it themselves they there's a chance they might not want to talk about it and there's also it's such a personal thing

and um you know things can be going on in people's lives behind closed doors all the time that you don't need to know about that and if it's wanting a baby when it's not happening that runs very deep doesn't it really deep oh don't worry i've given me that a hard time of it he knows now i'm getting impressed you're bad for it you and your family are quite good at straight talking oh yes it takes one to know one and um so how old were the was it much easier with your second baby if you don't mind me asking yes i think i think so so i had my implant put back in after we had our Oliver. And then I got it taken out a couple of years later. And I remember the doctor, who's actually now a really good friend of mine, because she had a baby around the same time as me.

And I went to get my implant taken out and she said, I just need you to sign this form. And I do need you to understand that if you have the implant taken out, you're not protected and you could fall pregnant. I said, well, yes, Helen, that's the point. That's why why I'm here and I said um I thought you might be thinking about it as well um a little bit her kid was about a year younger than mine she said yeah I wasn't sensible enough to have an implant put back in I'm six months pregnant so hers are quite close together but our boys are quite good friends now they're at school together oh that's sweet yeah and it sounds like as well your husband i love that thing of you saying he put his hand under the table and just gave your hand a squeeze

privately when your dad had said about the pitter patter yeah he knew it's we're quite private people we you know we don't we didn't want to talk about that even with the family the fact that i hadn't even shared that with my sister i did a few weeks later you know with the breakdown but yeah we just hadn't wanted to talk to anybody about it. And he knew that. And I'm a talker and Simon's a thinker. We're both, you know, being in business, we have our MBTIs done. And I can tell you I'm an ENFP. And I'm the opposite end of the spectrum to Simon. Sorry, you had your what's done?

So it's nothing like I knew, but then I realized I didn't understand. Personality profiling. Okay. So yes. So my personality profile is exactly the total opposite end of the spectrum. There's four points to measure your personality on. And I'm the exact opposite of Simon in every one of the four. And so I've come to learn. And the good thing is it's helped me in business, but it's also probably helped me understand my relationships with people and how we behave.

So if I think about that with my husband, because we work together i know his personality profile and he accepts now that if we need to if i need to we need to sort something out i need to think i need to talk about it to work my way through he needs to think about it and internalize it so when something's bothering him i know what not to push him to talk about it yeah but he's also learned that when something's bothering me i want to talk about it and he's going to have to accept that he's going to have to, actually I want to talk he needs to listen and just give us a mumble every now and again and make a fresh pot of tea when I need one Are these done in, does it do it in numbers?

Is it the personality test that's numbers? Or you can do numbers, you can do colour profiles this one's in letters Letters, okay Are you sort of trying to work out what the kids are sometimes? Oh god, that could be it Do you know, I've never done that. I might try that.

I might try and get them to see if they do MBTI tests for kids. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to Google that. If you find it, send it my way. I'd be really fascinated. I've definitely got some different ends of the spectrum going on here. And I suppose if business is so much part of your not just your what your working day but as you say your lifestyle is it sometimes quite hard to imagine the idea of your kids

not having that same gene that seem that same drive about something or do you never really feel like that's really nobody's ever asked me that before people always ask me if they have aspirations for the kids to grow up and take over the family business or go into business. And I don't. I want the kids to do what's going to make them happy. But nobody's ever asked me about that in the drive. And you're right, I would be gutted if those kids didn't have drive. I just think it's such a big part of who I am. And it's made me successful, not only in in the business but in so many parts of my life

and whenever you meet if you speak to any of my friends or anybody who knows me and you ask them to describe me it's probably the first word that would come out they say she's so passionate and she's really driven about what she does whether that's something in business whether that's my tv career or whatever i just i want to be the best at what i do in any walk of life and that that drive and passion to succeed is what gets me there. And I'd be distraught if the kids weren't like that. I think I would just want to sit them down and shake them all the time. But I've got two boys and I've got to see them through their teenage years.

So I'm probably going to have to learn how to cope with that, aren't I? Yes. Yeah, it's fun. I know. I mean, my eldest is now nearly 19. And I'm like, oh, what muggins am I I've got to do this four more times like that's just ridiculous but um when your dad had that talk with you and he said oh you know isn't it enough where your business is at and be home more was that ever a

voice in your head when they particularly when they're little and you're trying to that bit when you're first a new mum and you're trying to that bit when you're first a new mum and you've still got the work coming and the I remember so I had our Oliver and um when I was pregnant with Oliver QVC America got in touch with me now I'd never worked with QVC America I'd worked with HSN who's the biggest competitor to qvc but never directly with qvc and they rang me and they tried to porch me to go on qvc which was probably at that time the biggest opportunity of my career in tv shopping and it's not something you say no to but i was pregnant and i was too far pregnant to be able to go to be able to travel and so it was a case of well how soon could i go so and i

and i remember i wanted to breastfeed the kids and we were still working out a date when I'd first had our Oliver and I remember at one point working out how many feeds I would need to pump to be able to go if he was a couple of months old and I worked out I could do a round trip in 52 hours and I couldn't pump enough milk in the eight week. I couldn't build up enough of a stone eight weeks away to be able to go and leave him and do the 52 hour round trip. And I still needed to go. So in the end, me and my husband, I remember we both went over to Philadelphia and I needed to do. I had to be there for a week, had to be there for eight days. So we took this three month old baby to Philadelphia in the snow in February for eight days and I was just like what what am I doing what what am I

actually doing but it was this huge opportunity and I think I was very naive as many new mothers were and I felt like I'd had it drilled into me breast is best we must feed the baby breast milk and and so and I'd struggled breastfeeding, as a lot of women do, but I was adamant I wasn't going to give my baby any formula because this is what the hospital told me to do. And I remember getting to America and I'd fed the baby on the plane, we'd landed and he wouldn't feed. And then I thought, well, he'll be all right, give it another hour and he wouldn't feed.

And we'd gone on five or six hours and he wouldn't feed. So then I had one reserve bag of frozen breast milk that we'd taken in the, you know, ready for the next day when I had to be in QVC. And I remember he took that from the bottle, but he wouldn't feed from me and I was distraught. And so I was up all night pumping to try and leave enough milk so that I could go to QVC the next day for that training.

I remember being in the closet pumping at QVC so that I had enough milk when I got, it was just ridiculous. And because I wouldn't give the closet pumping at QVC so that I had enough milk when I got it was just ridiculous and because I wouldn't give the baby any formula milk and and in the end he wouldn't feed the whole time we're there and I had to I had to go and buy some formula milk and here presto he didn't die and he felt he knew wasn't the end of the world but I you know as a new mother you put all these pressures on yourself and so much at the pressures of work and the pressures of the kid in it and it was it was just too much and and I always feel like our Oliver did that as a as a bit

of a that'll teach him I mean for dragging me to the other side of the work not that a three-month old knows but I just thought this is karma this is what I deserved for dragging my baby all the way over here now he's going to refuse the breast he's not going to breastfeed and it's going to be an absolute disaster and actually I found out with the second one same thing happened with the second one but I didn't take him to America he just stopped feeding so far in turns out he had a posterior undiagnosed tongue tie and they said to me runs in the family so it turns out that probably was what the matter with our Oliver and I'd never I'd struggled feeding but I'd persevered he'd always been underweight probably wasn't feeding enough for me because of his tongue tie.

Never knew what it was, and I'd blamed myself and putting the business and QVC airing above the needs of my kid. And honestly, I just felt riddled with guilt for years. I was going to say, welcome to Maternal Guilt Club. And also, I completely relate to all that. And I think when you're working and a new mum and you're you feel like the I remember getting quite obsessive about the breast milk thing because it felt like that was a thing I could do for my baby that I could provide that kept me connected to

the fact I just had a baby and also was something that would mean that I wasn't being totally separated because if I wasn't feeding feeding them then I could have been off going to work straight away because with newborns particularly it's all quite binary you know if they kept the right temperature and they kept fed and they sleep they'll be all right yes they'll be all right so the only thing that could keep me as you know the maternal my bond was feeding them and I got myself totally tied in knots with it so many times so many women do yeah and I look at how much more laid back I was with the second recombination fed him from the off but I think for me as well I had gestational diabetes through both my pregnancies

and um and it means that the baby is at much higher risk of type 2 diabetes in later life and one of the things that reduces the type two diabetes and the likelihood of getting it is being breast having breast milk okay and so in my head I felt like and there's no I can't say why I had gestational diabetes but I know they tested me because my BMI was over 30 because for all I'd got my weight under control after our Helen had a go at me it wasn't it wasn't still as it wasn't back where it was before I was before I was trying to get pregnant so I blamed myself I thought you know what it's my fault I was overweight when I got pregnant therefore it's my fault I've got gestational diabetes it's my fault that he's at high risk of type 2 diabetes in their life and the only thing

I can do to reduce that is breastfeed him so I'm absolutely going to do that move, hell or high water. And I look back now and the whole thing was so utterly ridiculous. But in that moment with the mum, you just do whatever you can. Yeah, and it's very emotional, that stuff, and hormonal. Everything's running so high, isn't it? And in amongst it all, you're sort of trying to find your way back to yourself. or you're sort of trying to find your way back to yourself. And did you, so your personality and instincts are so integral to how you go about everything you're doing with the business.

Did you ever worry about how you would feel the other side of, you know, when you're a mum, if you feel like your old self sort of thing? Feel my old self? You know, it's so funny because I feel like I wear so many different hats it's like which one's me and it was just a new hat that I learned to put on it was this motherhood hat and and so I didn't know if this was how I should feel or how you shouldn't feel or or whatever you'll laugh though I'll tell you a story of the breastfeeding so I remember um Oliver was five weeks old and Simon needed to go to America and it was the way eight nights and all

I wanted was my mum to come and stay with us for eight nights and I was very conscious that Simon's an only child and his parents were really worried that I'm so close with my mum that they wouldn't get as much of a look in with the grandkids so being the model daughter-in-law and I tell you you look up model daughter-in-law in the dictionary, you will find a picture of me. I mean, literally, you'll certainly believe me after this story, right? So being the model daughter-in-law, I agreed for Simon's mum and dad to stay over as many nights as my mum would, so that they felt like they'd also got involved. And none of them had breastfed either me or Simon, so they didn't understand about breastfeeding. And my mum had come along on a couple of breastfeeding courses with us, so she kind of got it, was supporting us with it.

Simon's mum and dad had no idea, right? And all they could see is a hormonal woman, an underweight child. The whole thing was just an absolute mitigated disaster. I wasn't getting any sleep. They perceived their grandkid wasn't getting fed. Well, why don't we just give him a bottle? And so they were buying in formula milk. And I know now, looking back on it in the cold light of day so they were buying in formula milk or they were back and and

i know now looking back on it in the cold light of day they were just trying to be helpful but in that moment i was like this is hard enough as it is without you making it worse i know it feels very threatening if someone's saying like can you this is what you need to do to solve this and i remember once they'd come and they bought a book and it was that contented little baby. Oh, I put that in the bin. Oh, the one where the, that's the woman. Oh, yeah. The devil woman. And they bought this book and they were reading the book. And I was like, what are you doing?

And I know they only meant well. And I just remember it was four o'clock in the morning and I was sitting in the bed in floods of tears thinking, why are you in my house? You just need to get out. I need my mum to come and look after us. And on the phone to Simon Simon and Simon's in America cause gone absolutely mental wants to ring and blast his mum and dad and I'm saying don't you know they don't even know I'm crying they're in bed in the other room and and and I remember what I did I had a chat with my dad and my dad had a

really good insight into it and he said to me they don't mean bad they just don't know any different they don't understand why you're wanting to breastfeed the baby why it's better he said I didn't understand until you've just explained it all because I said to him this is why I want to breastfeed the baby he said I get it now but I didn't he said I just see you're struggling the baby's struggling here's another option that in my eyes is just as good as the first option so why not take the easy option? He said, and that's all they'll be seeing. So I remember I held a summit, and I invited my mum and dad around,

and Simon's mum and dad around, and I made them sit on the couch, and no one was allowed to hold the baby. I sat and held the baby, and I went to the hospital, and I picked up the breastfeeding DVD, 30-minute DVD, and I made them sit and watch it. And then I handed them all an information pack with all the pamphlets about why breastfeeding was the best thing for their grandson and I told them to go away and read it and I told them I know you all mean well

but stop if you mean well support me in what I'm trying to do don't try and suggest otherwise and I remember my friends all laughing years later they're like I can't believe you held a bloomin' summit and told your in-law.

But that's how I knew to deal with it. I guess that's the business me coming out there. Well, also, it sounds like you didn't have any, like, what's the word? It's looking something quite head-on, isn't it? Don't get me wrong, though. When Simon got back from America, he absolutely went through them like a dose of salt. So I like they'd still got there I still had my moment I remember going up for a

long bath that night I was in the bath about three I was thinking bloody hell they still haven't gone he went through them like a door like a ton of bricks saying my poor wife I can't believe you you've made her feel rubbish did you know she was sitting in the bedroom crying for five hours through the night because of how you'd made her feel so um yeah they've been great ever since yeah they're scared of another summit and what what is how similar is your children's childhood to yours do you know it's so important to me i'm on this quest to try and make it the same, and I know it can't be, but I feel like I am the person I am today because of the values I've grown up with, because of the way my childhood was

and the way my parents brought me up. And part of that is that we didn't have any money when I was younger, you know, and we had to make do, and I think that's really instilled the value of money in me and the value of working hard to achieve something. And my kids don't have to work hard to achieve a great life we provide a great life for them and it's really difficult balancing you know I'd love to go on really fancy holidays and and and enjoy that but then that's

not what I did when I was a kid I don't want my kids to think that's the norm and I remember a couple of years ago when our Oliver was really young and I took him to Thomasland oh my word but we had this amazing time and then the next summer Simon's mum and dad took him to Thomasland and then I booked up for us to go in the October half term and Simon said we're not going and I said well why not he said well he's been to Thomasland this year I said I know but I haven't I haven't been with him. I haven't taken him, so we're going to go again. And he said, no, that's a really special thing that you should only do, you know, once in a blooming, not something that you can do all the time.

And that's the thing. I can afford to do this stuff any time I want. Does it mean you should? And it's even now, you know, I really, I grew up, and my parents, we couldn't afford holidays when I was younger. My dad had a transport company. So what he used to do at the end of every summer is he used to get an old caravan from the tip. And he used, he was quite handy.

He used to retrofit the caravan into one of his vans. If it had reached the end of its life, he'd take a big transit van, retrofit the caravan. And I mean, he would cut the windows out the caravan and fit them into the van the sunroof build little beds for us all and we'd go holiday in the next summer in this homemade camper van that my dad had made and he used to do these every summer I loved it and how many are you just you and your sister just me and my sister so I and those life experiences really stayed with me and meant so much and I become more of an outdoorsy person as a result of it and and I want my kids to grow up like that Simon no chance I'm not sleeping in a tin box why would I do that so um it's not for everyone but my dad's lockdown project I bought

him a clapped out old van I spent five grand on this van and I said we're not getting the caravan from the tip dad but I will buy a second hand so we bought a 20 year old caravan for a thousand pounds and my dad retrofit the caravan into the into the van for me but I said it had to be good yeah to yeah you know he's got better over the years so um that was his lockdown project that's really sweet and did your boys get involved with some of that they did that's cute now me and the boys it's only a three birth because Simon won't come so me and the boys oh wow oh he really really held out on that so my mum and dad have got one as well um so we go we go campervanning with my mum and dad that's really cute her husband will come they bought a nice top of the range vw camper that's

all singing all dancing granddad frank made, which is a bit more special. That's so cute. I love that. And I think, I mean, look, I think for a lot of modern parents and getting the kids to understand money is quite tricky anyway because we don't really have much time with like pounds and notes or anything. I don't really, my kids don't really see actual coins, hardly at all, actually. I suppose so, yeah.

Which is quite strange, isn't it? Because when I was little, it was all about counting up your cash. Counting the money, yeah. Maybe some people do still give their children their pocket money in real money. But I mean, I don't. I use an app. And then they buy things digitally,

and it comes with a little card. Yeah. And so getting them to understand value is quite hard I think I tell you I was really proud of our little Charlie so he's only six and I think it was not last Mother's Day the one before, we'd ordered some flowers so I'd ordered flowers for Nana Sue and flowers for Grandma Val and Grandma Val just lives around the corner

so I had hers delivered directly there Nana Sue's I had to have delivered to our house so we could take them over and they came and the kids eyes lit up and they were because they were massive bouquets how much have you spent on that mommy because in their eyes we could have just picked some flowers from the garden i said well it's really special for nana sue for mother's day so you know i've spent 40 pounds on oh i can't believe you spent 40 pounds just on flowers, Mammy. And I thought, well, it's good that they had that value. And then, where's Grandma Val's?

And I said, oh, well, I've just gone to Gran's house. Well, did you spend £40 on hers as well? I said, well, I did. Is it just the same size? I said, it is. And I had to take, they wanted to go around and see because they wanted to be fair and made sure that we'd treat everybody fairly and spent this. And I was really impressed that they'd understood the value of the money and they were very much

fixated on the the fairness as well and I thought do you know what you sometimes worry if the lessons you're teaching them are really starting to sink in and then you hear something like that and you think oh some of them are definitely and I think as you say if you've got family values that's the thing you can impart but also I think you know you and your husband are modeling hard work and you know I think they will that's something that definitely seeps in doesn't it I tell you what was lovely we um over new year we went to Spain we've got a house out in Spain and I invited my uni girlfriends so that my friends came with their husbands with their kids and um one night I was sitting chatting to

one of the other dads and their little boy he's only two and and but our Charlie my six-year-old had really nurtured him and taken care of him on the whole holiday desperate he just desperately wanted to look after him and actually my eldest one's probably more the nurturing one like that but Charlie had really taken to little Freddie and I remember the dad sitting having a chat with me and he basically just explained what fantastic kids how we should be so proud of the kids and I said I am and I said the thing I'm the most proud of you know I'm less bothered about

are they accomplished at school are they getting the best grades are they the top of the class are they good at sports I'm less bothered about that I just want them to be good people and seeing how great Charlie was with their kid I hadn't told him to do any of that that's just him too that's in his nature and that was the thing I was the most proud of of him

I remember the dad saying to me but you do understand why he's like that that's the values that you've instilled in him and I'd never thought about it like that I thought that he must see that we're like that with and that's what he's picked up on and and yeah that was without a shadow of a doubt the most proud I felt of them kids and I said it's really not about their achievements it's about what good people they are and that's all you want for your kids isn't it definitely I think I couldn't agree more with that and I think I was wondering do you ever I mean your kids they're getting now to that bit where they're old enough to ask questions about when you're working and what time you're going to be home and that kind of thing and i think for me going away for work when my children were little was actually looking

back a lot easier because they only really know what's in the front of them and when i'm gone so long as they've got someone with them that makes them feel safe and happy they don't really count the days yep but when they get, I do even now have to sometimes have a bit of a talking with myself about it being okay to prioritise the work that I'm doing and it be okay for me to, you know, for that to be something that I need to do. Is that something you have to do for yourself?

It's so hard. And you're right, when they were little, they would cry, but they would cry all the time anyway. So you don't, you tell yourself, oh, they're crying because I'm going away, but you don't actually know if that's the case or not yeah whereas now they're older my little lad said to me last week i had to come down to london and he said um should we move to london mammy and i'm such a

country i am home girl through and through i will never leave the northeast i will never leave the village you know i grew up within the same area oh really literally very close so close I live 10 minutes away from my mum and dad Simon's mum and dad live around the corner never leave it and I was astounded that he said that and I was like well but if we do that we won't see Nana Sue and Grandad John all the time and he said I know

but then we would just see you all the time and I'm like I don't even come to London that often you know a couple of times a month and it was that thing of oh my, he's feeling it so much. And I tell myself it's OK because he's with the grandparents when I'm not here. And, you know, Simon will be the one doing the school runs and pickups and that. And we manage it. And clearly it's not. Clearly it is getting to him and bothering him. But it's part of who I am. And if I don't go and be who who I am I'll resent those kids for taking it away from me

so you you've got to find that balance you've got to do what makes you happy too saying that you could actually resent resent the kids for like actually stopping you doing those things as well I don't think I've ever really thought about it that way around I've never resented them but I'd hate to feel like yeah I changed who I was to think I could be a great mam. I know I'm a really great mam. I'm not there as much as some other mams maybe are, but it's not about the quantity. To me, it's about the quality. It's about, am I still making sure they're great people? And am I making the most of the time that I do have with them? And yes, I'm away from home. Maybe it's one, sometimes two nights a week, but then I make the most of the other time that I am. But you know what it's like. I'll just end

up run ragged. I mean, I did a lot of work back end that I am but you know what it's like, I'll just end up run ragged I mean I did a lot of work back end of last year on a new BBC show which was filmed out of Glasgow so I used to have to do a day a week up in Glasgow and I remember I got into this routine whereby every time I had to travel to Glasgow, I'd

pick the kids up from school, do the tea have the night with them, get my jammers on get into bed with them, lie there till they went to sleep, get back up, take my jammers on get into bed with them lie there till they went to sleep get back up take my jammers off put my clothes on pack my suitcase and leave at nine o'clock and travel through the night and get there at one o'clock in the morning knowing that I had a 6am call time for a full day to then travel back that night but it was worth it to have that evening there and I and I look at and what I put I mean 38 now I always ended up traveling through the night like this sometimes two and three nights a week and it's it's not I my body can't probably keep taking that but that's the sacrifice I'm making so that it doesn't feel to the kids like

I'm away as much yeah it's finding that balance all the time I've done exactly the same sort of thing and I think as well that uh experience now as well has led me to not take it so deep if other parents say of sort of slightly you know something casual about how how infrequently they leave their kids it used to cut really deep like oh my god i must be awful because i'm not following that suit yeah but now i'm like much more secure in in my style of parenting and i think you've put it really well when you say about the the quality over quantity actually and being able to be really present actually when you are with them being present is my number one goal in anything and it's not just being present with the kids

it's being present with work as well and I it was a really difficult lesson I learned this one so before Covid I used to travel to the states once a month and I used to have to take the 6am flight from Newcastle on a Sunday morning to get there three leg journey I used to get there at six o'clock on the evening their time and because it was six o'clock I used to leave the house at 4am so Saturday night put the kids to bed they were quite happy that I was there yeah we talked about the fact that I wouldn't be there in the morning when they woke up but I was there to put them to bed they were okay with it yes and I used to get up and leave well at one point they launched a direct flight from Amsterdam to Tampa which meant

I could take the nine o'clock flight from Newcastle so I left the house at seven and that one time oh my god the kids were distraught because they'd seen you they were they sat on the step crying their eyes out because I had to leave and what did I do I cried all the way to Newcastle and then I just felt sorry for myself all day and I spent all day looking at photos and videos in my phone feeling like crap now what I have to do is to prep a show in the US takes me about 10 hours and instead of having to fit that into my day what I do is I know that it's wasted time on the plane, I do that 10 hours of prep work when I'm travelling.

Well, that day I didn't do it, because I was feeling really sorry for myself, and then I was FaceTiming them when we got to the airport, like, Landry and all this, and I got there that night at 7 o'clock at night, which was really 11 o'clock at night, and my body clock time, and I'd been up since 6, and I had to start a 10-hour show prep.

Blimey. and all it meant was I didn't do a full show prep I didn't do as good a job in my shows the next day which meant I let the company down and I let myself down and then I had to travel home knowing that I'd let the company down and the whole thing and I thought and all of that and was I a better mother for feeling like shit all day Sunday about leaving them kids? Not at all. But I'd just let the mum guilt creep in all the Sunday, and then the payoff was I'd been rubbish at work.

And so after that, I vowed never to take that 9 o'clock flight. And I went back to my other model, and what I do now is I get on that plane, and I know I can't be with the kids, but I don't feel guilty about it because the kids are having a great time. They're with the grandparents, they're with Simon, they're having loads of fun. Not a problem. And when I get home, I know that I've worked bloody hard and i've done a great job for the company that week so it's thursday night so i just won't go to work friday and i'll have when the kids were younger i'll take the day off and now i'll work a bit and i'll finish early to pick them up from school and i won't do any work even though i'm behind on

my emails i'll let that lag and i'll have the weekend with the kids because i think well work's had 100 of me earlier this week. The kids can have 100% of me later. And I just learned to be present because any time you're not, you're not being a better version of yourself. I wasn't a better mum for leaving them kids. I certainly wasn't better at work.

Whereas if you just be present in the moment, you'll be great at work because you're given what you're doing 100%. Sounds like you're quite tough on yourself there to so you felt like you let the company down i mean i totally understand where you're coming from with it but you must be quite have a little bit of a i probably hold myself to i hold my staff to very high standards but i think i hold myself to another level of standard again and you know it was interesting because when i did strictly i think that was what it was holding myself to that level of accountability more so than what alias

held me to and again i remember there being presence so i don't know what it was holding myself to that level of accountability, more so than what Aliash held me to. And again, I remember there being presence, so I don't know what it was like for you, but for me, the only way I could fit the training into my day is I used to have to do it at six o'clock in the morning. So I used to do six till 12. Okay. Well, poor Aliash, God love him.

I don't think he knew there was two six o'clocks in a day before he met me. So he had to travel up north, and then he used to have to get up at five o'clock to travel to the studio where we used to have to get up five o'clock to travel to the studio where we would train and meet me at six o'clock to train and I remember he said he couldn't get over how unbelievable I was between six and eight on a morning he said your propensity to learn steps was just incredible and I don't think it's that I have a better propensity to learn steps than anyone else it's just your brain fires on so many more cylinders there's that saying about an hour before nine o'clock in the morning is worth two hours after six on a night if you're working and my

brain fires on so many more cylinders on a morning so I would do two hours be absolutely brilliant and then we'd always have a break at eight o'clock and have a cup of coffee and um I used to go and I used to check my emails and then quarter past eight would start dancing again but in my head i'm thinking right when i get to work at 12 o'clock i need to speak to so-and-so about that shipping container that's delayed and then we've got the proposal in for this and so because they've just emailed me so now and my head is in what i'm going to do when i get to work not in the learning steps yeah and i used to think that was all right and it was two or three days and he said to me you're brilliant between six and eight and something happens to you at eight o'clock and I don't know what it is but you're rubbish and it takes you

till about 10 o'clock to get back to where you were early in the day and when I realized what it was it's back to being present wow I could only give him six hours a day other people that were training were doing 12 14 hours a day training I couldn't I could do six yeah so I should give them a hundred percent of me in them six hours because that's all I can do because thinking about work at eight o'clock in the morning doesn't make me any better at work on the afternoon yeah but it makes me worse at the dancing so it's back to that whole thing of just be present in what you do and you'll do a great job of whatever you're doing and what else did you learn about yourself during the amazing and weird and incredibly nervous? The weird and wonderful hours of Strictly.

So, well, funnily, I actually went into it thinking it was a dance competition. How many people make that mistake? And I remember that first week and we were doing a bloody cha-cha-cha. And it's, so for me, oh, it was awful. Oh, I didn't mind the technical side of it. It was hard, but I didn't mind that.

It was the showing off. There was this bit in the middle where I had to wave my arms and shake and do a bit of a shimmy. And it was so out of my comfort zone. And for me, in business, there's no room for that. You know, you don't wear your heart on the sleeve. There's no vulnerability. You've just got don't wear your heart in the sleeve there's no vulnerability

right you just got to be serious and stern all the time certainly no showing off and wiggling your bum about no no I just felt ridiculous and so I put all that focus that first week into learning the steps how how could I throw my hip out in the New Yorker perfectly and how could I the lock steps had to be exactly like this and I focused on the technique the technique the technique and he spent the whole time trying to get me to loosen up a bit and let go and I was like well that's not what they're judging me on it's a dance competition I've got to get the steps really good and then we watched they did the dress run and I eyed everybody up and I thought you know what my aim going into it was to get to halfway I had everyone up and I thought about half of these people are a lot better than me and there's about half of them

I can give them a decent run for their money not necessarily better than me but not worse and I just weighed it all up and I thought right halfway is the equivalent of the win for me you know because I'm I was never going to be a good enough dancer to win or to get far on that far on but the best I could succeed top success for me would be the halfway point that's what I was aiming for so I was like right and and I watched a couple of others doing the cha-cha-cha and I thought my lock steps are better than yours I'm going to score better than you I'm fine right and I danced fourth and I got 17 and I got a slate I got I got a three from Craig right and I remember sitting down and I kept saying to I got a slate. I got a three from Craig, right? And I remember sitting down and Aliesh kept saying to me,

are you all right? I was like, yeah, I'm fine, I'm fine. And I thought, you know, I'm bottom of the leaderboard, but it's only four people, you know, so I'll maybe end up in the middle way because that's where I am. And everybody danced and everybody went just slightly above me in the leaderboard, stretching, stretching, stretching. I stayed at the bottom.

And I was right at the bottom and I just thought, oh, how's that gone so wrong? Because I'm not the the worst dancer so how am I at the bottom of the leaderboard and I just didn't get it and I remember we went we went out for for a drink on the night afterwards and it was really cutting him up how how I was just being like no I'm fine I'm fine and he looked at me and he says it broke my heart to see you tonight because you're not fine. But that's in business. That's what you do. You just say, I'm fine. It's fine. We're going to move on. And it was just it was watching the show the next day back. And I realised what it was. Everybody else embraced that competition and totally left their heart on the dance floor and giving it their all.

And I had given it my all technically, but I hadn't given myself over to the process and that's what people want to see at home they want to see that vulnerability they want to see you go for it and I hadn't been prepared to take the armour off and let them in and I've dreamed of doing that show my whole life literally it was the number one thing on my bucket list I was so desperate to do it

and I thought oh my god I was Bucky's favourite to go out and I was like all my life I've waited for this moment and I'm going to be out week two because I wouldn't let my guard down because I couldn't bring myself to do it. And I had a lot of deep soul searching that week. And I remember thinking, and it was a lot easier the second week because we did a ballroom dance and you don't have to show off.

But I tried to leave my heart on there without feeling like I had to show off and and I went from the bottom of the leaderboard to the top of the leaderboard the next week and apparently it's the only time in strictly history someone's doubled their scores in a week and it was that elation that feeling and I was like oh my god I can do this but I have to unlock this bit of me inside that I wasn't prepared to let out and I certainly wasn't prepared to let out on national tv in front of 10 million people I think that was the biggest eye-opening thing for me yeah and I think that's quite a understandable um instinct as well isn't it I mean it is an extraordinary thing and it's totally different and new I mean I found I still

cite it as the most nerve-wracking thing I've ever done oh like by a long way and everything for me is always the Paso Doble is always my mark of fear public fear that was going to be my next week's dance I never made it to the Paso well I just I was terrified of it even though I never got there yeah the ones that I thought were gonna be did you do a rumba yes I quite like the rumba I enjoyed my rumba Brendan freaked me out a bit because I was with Brendan Cole and he kept on saying oh it's like something you normally do horizontal

or vertical and I was like that's terrifying like really creepy so he did a great job of making you feel great about it didn't he but then when it came to it

I was like actually no it's quite nice it's like the tricky dances but slowed down it's fine it's slowed down in our life because it was back

to the technical side exactly yeah and we did mine to my favourite song so I felt the connection with the song Shania twain you're still the one oh a lovely song that and we we had to speed it up 13 percent even that was too slow for a rumba is that a song from your wedding or anything like that do you know i i wanted to have that as our first dance on our wedding and then i was too embarrassed to i think oh i'll get upset and everything so we

had aerosmith don't't Want To Miss A Thing. Well, that's another good one too. There you go, another builder. So your husband had to watch you dance the song that you wanted your first dance, but with another man on national telly. He doesn't dance with my husband though, so he really didn't mind in the slightest.

Oh, that's cool. And how did your boys find it? Were they... Do you know what? They hated it before it started on TV because it was something that took me away from home. So it was strictly was a dirty word all the way through August when I had to go and do

press interviews and go and do the press days and everything like that but then all of a sudden I think it was the mix of everyone at school was talking about it and it was a little bit cool that their mummy was doing that and then Aliash was just unbelievable he I think having been in the show nine years he cottoned on

to the fact that the way to get her to do the absolute best she could is to get the whole family bought into this and the very first night he was up with us I remember it was my wedding anniversary 15th of September he came around for dinner that night and he brought football cards for the kids and he was down his hand and he played with the kids for a couple of hours so the kids absolutely loved him and then Simon was getting home from work and I remember one of the kids shouting oh daddy's coming daddy's coming and he said to us I don't suppose you want to go and like have a long shower or something basically make yourself scarce so I went off and had a shower and by the time I came back out the shower

he's him and Simon sitting watching the football having a beer so they've been best friends for years I think he's obviously content on that most men would find this whole process really intimidating your wife's going to be rubbing up with another blow for you know 10 hours a day six in my case and um and he's just thought if I can embrace that and become right and I can just remember I think it was my week four and um I rang Simon as soon as I came as soon as we came off and i was like oh my god i was top of the leaderboard again week four and i'd got 36 and he said oh alias said you were going to get 36 and i said when did alias tell you i was going to get 36 he said oh we were texting on wednesday night and i was like you text and he's like well yeah and then i realized that

they have this little bromance going on the two of. And he just wheedled his way into my family. My dad, I remember my dad doing an interview with one of the, I think it was the Daily Mail. He called him the third son-in-law I never had. He literally wheedled his way into my whole family. My mum, my dad, my sister, my little niece, the kids, Simon, they all idolised and still do to this day. They came on holiday with us twice last year really they're just an extended part of the family that's lovely and i think he's he probably did that as a strategy yeah from the off to to get that made me better dance because i wanted to do

well for him because he was part of our family and i wanted to stay in longer because the family were all loving it as well but but actually by the end of it i think he was just they call him uncle aliash now he's just an extended part of the family yeah and he's a nice man and I also think like you were talking about mentors who don't know their mentors I think that probably Aliash because he did his first year when I was on actually that was yes with them and he won actually with them Abby uh Abby Clancy and um Brendan when we first got partnered as soon as they stopped filming the first thing he did was run straight over to Richard, my husband, and shake him by the hand and introduce himself.

And he said, involve everybody. Involve your family. Involve your friends. I used to have my friends come along to the rehearsal. I used to have my kids come along. And I think they probably have learnt that that's a really wholesome and positive thing to be doing because it is very intense. And I don't know how

you found that aspect for me my brain was just elsewhere for all the time I was doing it really I'd be sat talking at home and then I'd suddenly drift off into space and I'd be like going over a little bit of dance move I couldn't blimmin get right and it was just I've never really done anything quite that intense like that I think intense is the word. And I learned to stop bringing it home as much. I was just talking about it 24-7. And I remember I caught myself, it was about a weekend, and I'm there before, you know, we laid in bed watching the news or whatever before I got to sleep, and I'm twittering on about,

oh, I nailed this today, me dancing. And then I just thought, oh, my God, like, Simon's not doing this. He's having to live it with me. At least spend my time with him asking how his day's been instead of just constantly talking about this thing that I'm doing that he's that doesn't involve him exactly and I think it when I became a little bit more acutely aware of it I caught myself a bit more but you you just get lost in that world because it is it's it's not something you do it becomes you're in this. That's the best way to describe it, you're in that strictly bubble.

Yeah, and also, is it true that your business actually wasn't performing as forecast because of your involvement in Strictly? The difficult thing for me is, I wasn't doing as much TV, TV shopping when I was there. So the rest of the business really had to step up to fill that void of me not doing as well. I still did quite a bit. I literally did a couple where I did through the night, I would broadcast to the States, and because of COVID, we set up a studio in the Northeast, so I used to do, and there was a couple of times I literally did over,

I did all day dancing till 12, 1 o'clock, then all afternoon and evening till 5 o'clock in the morning on air and then I'd have a couple of hours sleep and then go all the next day again and I did that two or three weeks in the dancing and it it's really difficult but trying to find that balance because I knew that the company I couldn't be out for that long and it not affect the company you're so but I wanted to try and not yeah yeah I wanted to try and not. Completely ingrained in that. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to try and not affect the company as much as I could. And did you realise before then quite how dependent everything is on your presence in that way? Probably not as much.

I think what I hadn't appreciated is the leadership presence that the company missed when I wasn't there. You know, and a few of the staff commented to me afterwards, they just say, it's just not, it's not the same. Yeah. And it's, I'd only thought it was the commercial value I brought to the business I hadn't really ever considered the leadership aspect of me not being in there and that that was that I think that was the biggest takeaway for me so so I'm doing probably a lot more tv now than I did even before strictly um but I'm trying to not do stuff where I'm missing as long so that I can still maintain that presence in the business. Yeah, yeah.

And are you the sort of person that makes, like, five-year, ten-year plans, or are you more kind of following your nose with things? So my bucket list stuff was to do strictly and to write a book, to write not a biography, which I did last year. I love the title, by the way. Thank you.

We can make it. We can all make it. Yeah, it's clever, because obviously you're talking about making it as a businesswoman but also craft that was a little bit of a play on words big one for a pun I love I love a play on words well I'm pleased it I'm pleased it resonated because I think a lot of people won't have understood why I called it that I'll explain it to each and every one of them but but they were big bucket listings for me so and I feel like I achieved them a little bit sooner

than what was in my life plan. So I didn't have a life plan beyond them. So now it's a case of, right, need a new BHAG. There's a good one for you. Big, hairy, audacious goal. That's what they call them in business. What's your BHAG? What's the big BHAG that we're working towards?

So I need a new BHAG. Okay, and you're looking for something we're on the search for the big b-hag well i i'm it's my camera in the middle of my computer for doing zooms looking people in the eye that i'll make this afternoon so thank you so much for talking to me it's been a complete pleasure i thoroughly enjoyed it i look forward to your investment in my invention. I'm in. Woo! Hey, me again.

Look, do I sound more relaxed now? We've actually had our flight a bit delayed, so I'm in a shop. I'm able to move around. I want to say sorry to Richard who's editing this. I know he'll hate the fact it's so noisy here, but I actually have found the quietest corner of Boots that I can talk to you. How much do you love Sarah Davis? Isn't she lovely?

And it's just, I love spending time with women who are such cheerleaders for other people, and they sort of have that kind of can-do attitude and hard work and all the good stuff. So yes, that was a joy, and now actually I'm really starting to look forward to my weekend I'm taking my mum away it's just the two of us we've got two

nights away in beautiful Fife we brought our walking boots I think it's going to be really cool and I'm so thrilled we made this flight because the next option they only had business class left and it was like 500 pounds each and my mum was like we'll just have to do it and I was thinking I'm bloody well not um anyway that reality didn't have to happen listen have an amazing week thank you for joining me again thanks to Richard for doing the editing on a noisy thing sorry sorry thanks to Claire Jones for her amazing production and beautiful note making and all-round fantasticness thanks to Ella May for the gorgeous artwork. But mainly thank you to you for joining me, lending me your ears and spending some time with me.

And I'm sorry if I put you in a slightly stressy mood at the beginning with my frantic chat about getting to the airport. But you know what it's like when you think you're going to miss something. It's nothing quite like that bolt of adrenaline. It's going to last me all day. All right, lots of love, Susan. all right let's listen On each step with Peloton, from their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it. journey starts when you say so if you've got five minutes or 50 peloton tread has

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