Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 87: Claire Hodgson

Episode Date: February 20, 2023

Claire Hodgson is a theatre director who hates rules and who wants to make a difference to the world through the shows that she makes. I first met her last year at Camp Bestival, when she was coordinating the Guinness world record attempt for the largest number of simultaneous disco dancers!! 600 altogether - and they did it!!We talked about how Claire, her brother and her sister cleaned up on disco dancing medals as children and how she went on to found a company called Diverse City, and Extraordinary Bodies for circus artists. During lockdown she became a sea swimmer and last year she created a large-scale sea choreography he is just about to launch a theatre called SW!M in Swanage in Dorset. Her upcoming project is a musical called ‘Waldo’s Circus of Magic & Terror’ at the Bristol Old Vic. It is a new musical set in 1933 and is based based on true stories about how circuses smuggled people with disabilities out of Germany during WW2. Claire has a teenage daughter Scarlett who helped her coordinate the WhatsApp group for SW!M and who Claire feels very fortunate to have spent extra time with, because of lockdown.Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hey, you find me in the kitchen and I'm seizing the moment because I've realized it's quiet in here it's Saturday afternoon and last night we hosted Kit's birthday sleepover it was a joint party him and his friend Rory who he's known since primary so we had an extra seven teenage boys to find somewhere to sleep so I

basically cleared out the whole of our city on the floor and then just put six beds, like inflatable beds, all like squished, like on the floor, and then two on the sofas. And let's face it, sleep wasn't really the end of the game. I think they maybe got 40 minutes, but actually they were really well behaved and really sweet. So it was actually really nice.

And we now don't have any birthdays in the house till April so yeah feel like yay done done a good birthday because teenage birthdays can be a bit tricky but I think kind of got in under the wire I think 14 is probably the last one you can do where they're not really that bothered about the fact they're not drinking maybe 15 I don't know if I'm speaking from my own experience there I seem to remember everything getting starting to getting a bit curious about booze and boys around 15 onwards but maybe that's just me anyway I hope you've had a good week my week well it's been half term here and it was one of those half terms where I hadn't really planned very much but it's quite nice. Did little bits and bobs.

And I have our lovely nanny, Carolina, who's brilliant. And when I'm not as busy, like this week, I'd actually kept it really clear. One of the most amazing things about being able to have childcare like that is being able to do things one-on-one with my kids. So I had a day out with Ray. I had a day out with Jesse. I had a day out with Jessie. I took the big two out for lunch one day. Just nice things like that. And that's really special.

When you've got five kids, it's nice to be able to spend time with them one-on-one. On that note, I just want to say, I am aware that the introduction to this podcast, the bit where I said, welcome to spinning plates, yada, yada. I know I say it wrong. I know I say I have five kids aged between six months and 16. It was true when I recorded it. It's now

grossly misrepresentative of what goes on in this house. My youngest is now four and my eldest is 18, nearly 19. He's going to gig on his own on Monday. Crazy. Anyway, that's, sorry, very easy for me to get distracted, isn't it? Anyway, yeah, I do know the intro's wrong. And I've said it to my editor, who I'm also married to. And we are aware that we have to re-record that bit. And I will get it done. It's just, you know, I just haven't got around to it yet.

Anyway, I'm in the kitchen. I'm about to cook some supper for the kids. I've got a really nice book here called Dominique's Kitchen. This woman who's done lots of Asian food. So tonight I'm making a few, a noodley thing and a curry thing and a spicy prawn soup thing. It should be tasty, I think. And this week's guest, Claire Hodgson,

I think it's a really cozy, nice chat. She is someone I met in a very strange way, in that we met on stage at Kent Festival, where I had learned choreography that Claire had come up with, in order to host the Guinness World Record attempt at the most number of people disco dancing at one time. So I turned up on site at Camp Festival, I'd learnt my little routine, and I met Claire on the stage and there were, I think, just shy of 600 people all doing exactly the same dance to We Are Family by Sister Sledge in the sunshine with the Guinness World Record holding biggest disco ball in the world behind us which what

camp festival have and they did it and it was amazing because the adjudicators came from guinness world record and they were kind of like central casting guinness world record holder adjudicators they turned up in their um blazers with their guinness world record badges and briefcases and clipboards and they checked checked very, very keenly that everybody was dancing exactly the same, was all synchronised, all within the marks. And then, yes, they announced that they'd got a new world record.

How brilliant. And I was really struck with Claire because I thought she was really joyful. And I, you know, obviously, I was intrigued by her. Who is this disco-loving lady? Excuse me. Sorry, I had a frog caught in my throat. throat yeah so there's a disco loving lady and then from that I started to learn a little bit more about her and how she has an MBE thanks to setting up two inclusive theatre companies theatre and circus

companies uh diversity and extraordinary bodies both of which encourage people of all abilities, all ages, to get up on stage and do circus skills and theatre, which I think is brilliant. The arts, you know, as with everything, is very much for everybody. And I do think about that a lot. I think about if I had a child who had some sort of challenge or a disability or the body was formed in a way that wasn't the typical and I think it's so good to have representation I can't imagine how must have been for people to spend really up until pretty much now before they saw anyone other than

a typically bodied person on something like Strictly. And when you think about it, it's crazy it's taken so long to show that all sorts of people can dance and do theatre and do circus. Absolutely. So Claire, she's obviously been flying that flag for a long time now. But it's just really, yeah, nice to see. And she's a lovely woman. And we spoke about that. And we spoke about her teenage daughter, Scarlett.

And we also spoke about cold water swimming because she loves swimming in the sea every morning, which I'm always been intrigued by because I don't do it. And I've realized actually a lot of my guests do. I've spoken to at least, off the top of my head, I can think of at least five women who start their day with a cold plunge. Am I doing things wrong, guys, by staying warm and dry?

I don't think so but hey i do understand that it has benefits anyway um i think it's a very very good chat to listen to in a cozy kind of way so if you're not on a run or commute or listening while you're busy doing something else go and get a cup of tea because it's very yeah it's kind of like all nice and warming so yeah unlike the sea. See you on the other side. Claire, it's really nice to meet you properly. And I wanted to start with the brilliant reason how our paths crossed. So we met at Camp Bestival on on a very very sunny day at participating well i was sort of i don't know what i was doing like cheerleading i guess you were leading a guinness

world record attempt the most number of people disco dancing at one time which you succeeded in how did that come to be yes um thank goodness we succeeded it was quite a nerve-wracking day actually because um it's only when i got to it i thought and the guinness book of records turned up with their clipboards i thought i'd focus so much on teaching everyone the dance i suddenly came into my view that of course they were adjudicating uh and we were successful and the record is for 600 people uh dancing simultaneously uh the world's largest disco dance um and it it came into being because I was creating a show with Cirque Bijou who I collaborate with um for camp festival and it was called Disco Inferno um and I was co-choreographing

that um and actually I got overexcited and put myself in the show as well, which wasn't my intention. But as we rehearsed, it became clear that I was just dying to be in the show. And my co-choreographer said to me, you could be in it. She kept just shimmying away. Yeah. When will they let me join in? And so I was there doing that.

And then Camp Bestful decided they wanted to break this record. And Josie, who runs Camp Bestful, said to Billy at St. Bajou, we'd like to break this record. And Billy said, I know just the person who can do that. And put me in touch with josie about it and the reason he thought of me is uh we actually run a circus company together but uh i was a disco dancing champion uh and uh in the 1980s growing up and so uh yeah it was a nice full circle at 51 to be breaking the world record and I grew up disco dancing competitively with my brother and sister and my friend Sharon who's still my friend um and we did these disco competitions at weekends and they were really

glamorous uh you know you had multiple costumes you're part of teams and duos and uh at one point they brought in trios which was fantastic because I'm one of three children so we could practice at home and uh you can imagine the outfits the glitter um and um it was a it was a whole glamorous thing and and so exciting and we would drive up on a coach um from where i grew up just outside brighton to hammersmith palais and for me it was the glamour and excitement so yeah when you're very near hammersmith palais now. I know. We can go and start again. And put a number on my back and start competing.

So how old were you at this time? So I would have been in my early teens, and I'm the oldest of three. Early teens. So you, did you say your sister and your brother? Yeah. So. Working on disco.

Sorry, I know it's a very serious business but I'm just picturing it in real terms suitcase on the table my mum sometimes my dad mainly my mum my dad would sit at the competitions and fall asleep we would be changing ourselves through disco he could uh and uh we'd have this suitcase open and it would fill up with medals during the day and we would be changing our costumes and um yeah it was it was brilliant and and of course it's something that I haven't used as much as I've liked uh as an adult and then the opportunity came to break the world record and um I actually contacted my brother who who now lives in Australia. Both my brother and sister work in performing arts as well. Oh, really?

Yeah, they do. And my brother was recovering. He's still a dancer and choreographer, but he was recovering from a hip replacement, which is common. He's done a lot of disco dancing, clearly. He's had a lot of, give me some new hips. Yeah, exactly. And I said to him him do you think you

could do the choreography uh while you're doing rehab so he did the choreography for uh the world's largest uh disco center recording of himself I then learned it and uh got in contact with my sister and said obviously you'll be taking part and your family I hope and they were all up for it um so were they there at the day they were and also 30 people from the town where I live oh my goodness because we had to make a promotional video to get people involved in this the one I would have watched with you guys dancing on the beach and everything exactly and um and what I thought about the promotional uh video was that it needed to be ordinary people in that it needed to not be dancers for people to feel that they could do it. And so I asked people where I lived, you know, other friends with children, the women that I swim with in the morning, people I know in the town and everyone learned the dance and we filmed

it on the beach so it was a great thing it was a great what else you tell me today I'm happy my heart is so happy so it was a family affair and um I love the fact your brother's a choreographer like the disco just stayed with him that's just so gorgeous yeah what about your sister what does she do now that she's still performing too? Yeah, my sister has taught 16 to 18-year-olds throughout career in performing arts. And now she works for a venue doing talent developing, developing career pathways into the creative arts for young people. So where did this come from with your family and the disco and the performing arts and everything? Are there any threads you can see in the family?

Well, I think partly where we lived, there was a great dance teacher who had a school. And, you know, I sometimes think, oh, you know, my mum goes, well, it could have been tennis. You know, in that we went to the thing that was near us and I suppose she is and was a great dance teacher and um me and my sister went first and then we used to come home and teach my brother the moves and um so we were in the sort of 1970s hit late 1970s and um and he would always learn the dances at home.

And we had disco records. And then my mum's friend said, you know, he's a really good dancer. And my mum was like, yeah, he is. And you should take him as well. And my brother has, Alf, the three of us of us had you know the most sort of dance career so it's good that auntie carol spotted that i'm sure my mum would have uh as well but um i i think my mum and dad um my mum's always enjoyed theater my mum and dad were teachers. And I think we just had great parents who, when we showed an interest in something, would get on it

and help us pursue it. And whatever it was, you know, I remember my sister having a period where she wanted to be an archaeologist. My dad would be down with the brushes with her. You know, whatever it was that we were into, they helped us give it a go. And I suppose we just found the thing that we all really liked and enjoyed. And yeah, I suppose it's that encouragement, isn't it?

And I suppose that belief that even if it doesn't become your career, and it has become our careers, but that you may be about to find the hobby of your life yeah and I think if you've got that passion and it's woven into your work it does kind of that thing of getting you out of bed in the morning and the purpose and all that it's so it's so brilliant isn't it and the fact that you could legitimately do the thing at uh camp festival and actually make sense of everything else you do. How nice is that, that that can be part of your world?

Yeah. And it's like that actually makes complete sense. It's not like an out-of-body experience, you know? Yeah. So what is it you're getting up to at the moment? Tell me everything you've got on in the here and now with your work. So the here and now is much better than it has been because we're back performing again

and it's it's pretty exciting time because we're able to do live performance and um so i've um got a company called diversity which i founded in 2005 um and i'm delighted that it still exists and is thriving. We develop shows and create work, and we also work with young people. And we're known for our work around inclusion, which is about including everyone in the performing arts, which I can talk more about in a little while. And I also am the co-artistic director of the UK's only integrated circus company called Extraordinary Bodies, which is disabled and non-disabled circus artists working collaboratively together. And so we've got a number of shows that we're up to.

And what I'm up to at this moment is I'm working on a show that will open in March next year which is a musical and it's um it's quite a big show um and it's opening on Bristol Old Vic main stage wow fantastic venue it's lovely it's the oldest theatre in the country Bristol Old Vic so I didn't know that as theatre nerd, I get quite excited about that. And it's a co-production between Extraordinary Bodies and Bristololvic and Theatre Royal Plymouth. And it's a circus show that has songs. It's written by Hattie Naylor and Jamie Bedard. Jamie runs Diversity with me.

And the music's going to be by Charles Hazelwood. And I think it's going to be an amazing thing. It's a circus in 1933, and it happens over six months. And it's based on the true stories of the way in which circuses smuggled disabled people out of the country. And it's a fictional account of real historical events. And there's lots in it. There's wire walking, there's circus, there's music.

But it's focused on a really difficult historical moment. Tell me more about that. I don't know about that history. So in 1933, in July, there was a law passed, which was the prevention of hereditary disease. And it was a law that the Nazis brought in right at the beginning, which was where they began to sterilise disabled people also people living with mental ill health and many other people that they felt were undesirables

but are particularly focused on disabled people. And in our circus there is a young woman who's learning disabled and a woman of short stature and they are being targeted by a doctor who is seeking to sterilise them. So this was a law that was brought in in Nazi Germany? Yeah, in July of 1933. And our circus is sort of impacted by that law immediately because the circus contains many disabled artists um and um

and they are immediately being targeted by the regime wow i had um i do vaguely remember something about that and obviously it follows the nazi way of thinking about you know erin raw but one extraordinary thing and i guess circus is already a rich place for that conversation because although that's a very extreme form of it the relationship between circus and you know this sort of victorian idea of paying money to go and look at someone who's you know different and unusual was much more. That was part of what circus. Yeah. And that's an uncomfortable bit of history too.

So you've sort of taken it right to the most sort of uncomfortable, extreme point of it. But also, I imagine it's also going to be a fantastical show because you've got all these amazing things going on. Is circus something you trained in? Is that why you've ended up working with circus? No, I didn't train in circus at all. I've only been doing circus for the last 10 years since the Olympics.

I made a show for the Olympics opening ceremonies, which was for the sailing and windsurfing events. And it was on a beach in Weymouth in Dorset and it was watched by beach in weymouth in dorset and it was watched by 11 000 people and um that was a combination of the youth theatre that i ran at the time still run many of the people who were there then are still involved and um they are mainly young people with disabilities and they were at the center of this show. And then there was a circus company, Cirque Bijou, taking part, and they created this amazing circus on the beach.

And afterwards, Billy, who runs Cirque Bijou, said to me, we should set up a circus company that profiles disabled artists as well. Because through me and my work, Billy had sort of come into contact with many profiles disabled artists as well. Because through me and my work, Billy had sort of come into contact with many more disabled artists. And I said, yeah, that's a really good idea. And I suppose what I found liberating about working in circus, because like you say, circus has circus got really complicated history with disability is that people who work in circus are really good at assessing risk and so you know one of the things

that had happened to me a lot in my career is that people would say things were impossible or too ambitious. People have said that to me a lot about my work and said, you know, that, yeah, that's not really, you know, and particularly if you, people somehow perceive, particularly young people with disabilities, as fragile. But what was brilliant about working in circus is they could properly assess the risk and not just have a sort of knee-jerk reaction. about working in circus is they could properly assess the risk and not just have a sort of knee jerk reaction and so we're open to um you know working with people at height and young people

working off cranes and things like that um yeah because everyone you know bodies aren't necessarily more risky than other bodies you know that's all a lot of that is sort of constructed ways of thinking yeah and i guess also that thing you're thinking about someone saying that's not possible that you know actually circus you can go and see things where it's like how how has that even developed as a thing it's incredible and you never know it could be done and it could be done to order at height or you know people standing on top of each other wherever it may be we actually spoke before to um a circus performer it's a whole fascinating world circus yeah it's really i i found it like a really amazing um sort of discipline to work in because

obviously i'm directing the show so i work with people who are experts who are performers and they know what to do all i have to do is sort of work with them conceptually, and it's always a collaboration. And I've learned so much. And, yeah, it's very freeing. In circus, everyone has their thing that they're good at. Yeah. So unlike dance, where you're sort of traditional dance,

you're often trained to be similar to other people. Everyone is trained actually to be different. And so there's much more sort of tolerance around different body shapes and difference in general and respect for people being good at their thing and i suppose i really sort of relate to that in terms of inclusion you know like everyone has their thing yeah yeah that makes that actually makes complete sense you know and so and and you know, people who work in circus are quite, you know, open-minded and can be, you know, they're good at subversion.

And so it's sort of, it's quite a natural place for disabled artists to be in. Yeah. There's lots of positives about it. And yeah, it was just really good doing the Olympics with the circus company because I began to see what the potential could be. Also the Olympics, what an amazing thing to be part of.

It was a very exciting time. It was an amazing time. And it was an amazing time for arts and culture because it was really supported. And there was money put into arts and culture so that we were ready. And we really were ready. And we did show some amazing arts and culture so that we were ready. Yeah. And we really were ready. And we did show some amazing arts and culture with the opening ceremonies for the Olympics and the Paralympics.

And, you know, those things were like, it's so important to see your identity in terms of your country reflected in, you know, big mass events where all of us are there. And in terms of diversity, the opening ceremonies were amazing. Really amazing. I think everybody felt that same... Everybody was watching. There was like a sort of surge. I remember just before the Olympics started,

there was a bit of cynicism and a bit of weariness about impending. And then as soon as the opening ceremony, like, the whole tone just flipped and from then on the olympics paralympics it was just pure excitement and engagement and it was really lovely and like being in i was in london that summer and it was just incredible feeling um went over to the olympic park i watched some of the paralympics actually it's really brilliant atmosphere but so in amongst all this we, we have your daughter Scarlett. So how old is she now?

So she's 13 now. She's 13. So she was quite little when I was doing the Olympics. Yeah, so she was sort of two, three. Yeah, so was she born in 2009? Yeah. Yeah, same as my second boy. Yeah.

Yeah, she was. So I was sort of in that time just sort of with my mum helped a lot and my partner Tom and I was sort of, in that time, just sort of with my mum helped a lot and my partner Tom, and I was sort of crawling back in. I mean, say crawling back in, I was working on an opening ceremony for the Olympics, so maybe that wasn't quite crawling back in. Do you remember what was happening when you had her? What stage were you at with everything?

Well, it all changed dramatically because I diversity had begun and we had an office in London in Hoxton and before I had a you know I I thought oh yeah be fine I'll live in Dorset where I where I just moved to and and then I'll have this office in London and I'll just travel and then of course I'd had it for like one week I'd never had a baby before and I was like well that is completely not going to work that was and so I sort of I suppose organically to suit me I began to seek opportunities more in where I lived and southwest and got rid of the office and just thought well if this is going to work it's going to have to be remote. And we haven't ever set up another office since that office went down in 2009.

And now there's 17 of us that work remotely from home. And we've always been remote and work flexibly because I sort of built something that suited me um and obviously it suits lots of other people you know parents but also people living with chronic conditions or um other things that can work that might not people might not be able to sort of pitch up in an office and also if you live in a rural place, travelling to an office, you can travel for a long time to get to your office. You know, and I'm really interested as well in being able to sort of recruit for people's talent, not their geography.

Yeah, I think we're now much better at that full stop, aren't we? Just looking across them how things can really work. So when you started Diversity back in, you said 2005? Yeah. What was the landscape like then for inclusivity in theatre well different to now do you have you seen a really big shift for the better i would yeah for the better for sure i mean there's always been really trailblazing companies that we sort of would you know i have absolutely paved the way, like Grey Eye Theatre Company,

other long-standing companies who've developed a lot of talent. And that talent was clearly seen in the opening ceremonies, you know, for the Olympics. But what is really heartening to me is casting this musical at the moment is that we're working with a casting director and a lot of deaf and disabled actors are really busy and that is fantastic and really annoying for me but um for casting but it's really brilliant sign of the times isn't that yeah it's really

it's a really changing landscape it's amazing actually how quickly things from I suppose the time when you're setting that company up how things can look really dated now when you look back and you think like now that I love it when in a tv drama there are people with disabilities and it's not commented on at all it It's just, they're just them. And I think that's, you know, it's not, that's exactly, of course, how life works. The TV didn't always used to, or drama, film, didn't always used to reflect that. And actually, the fact that we were sort of blind to that for so long

seems quite extraordinary now to me. But it just didn't, you just got used to the fact that that wasn't, that was a formula for how things were presented. Yeah. And there must have been so many people starting the same message back at that for so long thinking why aren't we being listened to why is this not changing you know yeah i think people noticing that and and not seeing your reality portrayed in any way i think that has whether it's in terms of disability or sexuality or or race not to see yourself in culture has a very profound effect you know and the effect in reverse of seeing someone like yourself um yeah it's it's transformative yeah that's so true

and you look as a child it's quite instinctive to look for yourself outside yourself isn't it yeah and so you do take for granted you know it's like white woman I've taken for granted that you know able-bodied white woman I see myself I've seen versions of me for all my life reflected but you do sort of take it for granted then suddenly you'll have this sort of wake up of like oh my goodness what about all the other kids out there that don't see themselves yeah and I think when you're little you need to see people like you it's really important to raise your aspirations about what what you can become you know and yeah I think I mean for me you know what one thing that happened to me that was quite important is when I was 18 I went as a dancer on um this project and I met my friend Jamie who I still

run the company with now and Jamie is a disabled artist and at the time we were both young and neither of us yet had careers in performing arts and Jamie had started a career as a social worker um as a man who just recently graduated and a disabled man nobody had mentioned to him being an actor you know and then we both did this project um with major road theater company and it was amazing big outdoor show um and I think it changed both of our lives we met each other and became friends and and I suppose amazingly we run this company you know you know I set the company up and in more recent years Jamie's come on board as as the co-artistic director with me because as soon as I had Scarlet I sort of thought I really want to be in shared leadership situations in whatever I'm doing I don't want to be on my own because

it's too stressful um and and also of course is you know everything's much more successful when I'm not the only leader annoyingly I found uh yeah's true, but I do think there's a lot, I mean, collaborative things just... They're always better. Yeah, I like working that way too. And it's always more fun and it's much better. Yeah. It's much better. But, and so, yeah, the joy of running things together.

And I suppose that, you know, Jamie and me, I suppose we've told that story a few times, but I think it was, it's one of those moments that opened both our eyes. Jamie saw that he could be an actor and I just saw how the world worked in the way that, both through doing that show where there was many disabled performers and being friends with Jamie, I just saw how disabled people weren't

included in society a very basic level and from then on I always um work to include everyone in my work and you know that that I'm probably best known around disability or disability is the most visible part of that work but but I have commitments, you know, entirely around other identities as well because I, you know, are working in the arts. I want to show the world as it actually is because that's really important for the people who are not being represented, but also because it's really interesting

to hear the stories that are not being routinely told you know um and yeah and i mean that's the great thing is that you know as an artist you get to tell stories and you can begin to tell your own story but you can also tell other people's yeah so when you started the company when you worked were you actively thinking of it as activism or did it not really was that not really the way that it was sort of framed like you So when you started the company, when you worked, were you actively thinking of it as activism? Or was that not really the way that it was framed, that you were actually trying to change things? Or was it more just that, I want this company, and it's going to be inclusive because that just makes the most sense to me?

I suppose... Sorry, I know it's quite a hard question to answer, but I just feel... It's a good question. I suppose it just would sharpen where the emphasis is of the objectives. Is it like making people walk away thinking about that, or is it just a sort of by-the-pipe, is what I mean? Yeah. Is it a conversation you're hoping people have when they are involved,

if that makes sense? I do it always intentionally. Like, for example at camp festival i cast the show um inclusively so it has people with learning disabilities it has black artists it has a drag king you know i'm i'm intentionally trying to get people to think about who's on stage by presenting the widest range of people that I can um and I sort of see myself as being part of an ecology of many people who are trying to change things I think yeah I mean that is a nice thing to be an activist I would like to think I'm an activist but I suppose

I don't what do I do I often call myself that I'm always trying to change stuff because there's so much to do and I suppose it is yeah the things that drive me are to change and make things more equal um at a basic level and I guess involved in the arts arts is all about progressing things too having conversations that progress stuff that's kind of yeah and i suppose the bit that's got tricky for me is sometimes people have thought that we're just there to campaign and the way that we campaign is by doing the art so the way that we change the world is by making shows because that's what we're good at we can obviously campaign but there's people who are better campaigners in In a way, we show...

I always think that, in a way, what our shows can do is show what the world could be. And so that's what I'm trying to do, is realise and show how the world could be so that people can see it. So when people come away from, for example, from the new show at the Bristol, Vic, what are you hoping people take home from that experience?

Oh, well, they... People will be amazed by the whole range of talent that they see, lots of artists that haven't been seen in central roles. They'll think about the fact they haven't seen that many stories, love stories, between a disabled woman and a non-disabled man because the central love story is between a woman of short stature and an average height man. And so I suppose people think, well, haven't I seen more of that?

Yeah. And I think people will think, yeah, that was amazing circus. What music? The music, I know some of the music already obviously and the music is really stunning and there is going to be a big disco track in it because although it's set in the 30s the music is really eclectic it's sort of punk and folk and um and disco and you know um so the music doesn't you know necessarily sit in that historical period. And I suppose people would have seen a real big range of people on stage and also I think people will be alert

that what's happening to disabled people in society at any point is a really big indicator of where that society is at. really big indicator of where that society is at um and to eve what your position is as an ally so disabled artists and disabled people had a really different journey through the pandemic um and you know running shows for us where you know we needed to keep both audience when we first returned audiences safe and artists on stage safe um there was a lot of language used in the pandemic that separated people into valuable people and less valuable people and of course we're all valuable people what sort of thing do you mean can you give me an example I suppose that quite often that the way from the beginning that once things opened up people never thought about the people that

hadn't opened up for oh yes yes so it was it was um well everyone can be in auditoriums now what about the people who can't yet be in auditoriums you know what people who are clinically vulnerable yeah and and you know in people who are clinically vulnerable. Yeah. And, you know, in many ways, the pandemic opened up a lot of art through putting a lot of art online, which was brilliant for people who were not able to be in sort of mass gatherings, you know, and just to always think about

that not everyone is having the same experience. Very much so. So how do you do that with a teenage daughter? How are you? Because actually it must be interesting to hear. Oh my goodness, I haven't talked about her enough. So far. But I suppose I was just thinking, if this is the view you're having of the world and what you're tuning into, you have a bring a small person firstly it's like a reset isn't it because then if her early childhood is all post that olympics

post time actually starting to you know things catching up and things shifting so you're seeing it like how she's seeing it and presumably for her for scarlet's generation the conversation we're having now about inclusivity is going to be hopefully pretty old-fashioned pretty quick i would imagine i think very soon we're going to spend think why did we spend all that time talking about sexuality and gender and all these things that we spend a lot of time talking about i just think in the future it's going to be like a conversation of yesteryear but is that something that you think has changed for her generation and how she's seeing things and and

how she feels about herself as well I mean my word it's hard to be thinking about I don't know how other people are feeling when you're a teenager it's just all about your feelings yeah yeah it is it is it's it's lots isn't it now I feel really optimistic about the future in that way in terms of that these categories won't exist in the same way and you know Scarlett says to me in relaxed way like you know what's their pronoun you know you know language that you know it's all and and obviously through my work she's always been involved with people who are different in different ways and yeah but the whole explosion of people being really clear about their neurodiversity there's there's so much positive uh stuff that's happening that yeah

like you say that these things that have been like you know ways that we describe people will fall away and it i think in terms of gender and all sorts of sexuality you can see clearly see that it's going to be a very different future that's really exciting and um yeah yeah i suppose being a teenager is about both um being really in your own world but it's also time when you really care about things as well that's true your heart opens a lot to issues doesn't it as well um and you have um but yeah there's a balance i i mean i i really i said to scarlet the other day that I really love being the mum of a teenager because I find it so amazing to be with someone

as they're becoming an adult. Like, it's just like such a lucky thing to be involved in. And, you know, I just, yeah, I really like it. I really like the challenge of it and it's fascinating. And I suppose, you know, thinking back to my, you know, the house I grew up in, my mum and dad were always interested in our friends and who our friends were.

I mean, probably now that, you know, part of that was to work out what was going on. But it's always good to know who the friends are a bit but but it was a genuine interest in young people and I feel the same like they're they're really amazing and fascinating and you know the young people I've worked with who work and the youth theatre that we've always run I've always found like the most sort of a big source of energy you know two young men, Dave, who's still involved in lots of our work, prompted me to do the Olympics opening ceremony because they said, you know, it was run in New Theatre,

and they said, oh, the Olympics is coming here. And I said, yes, isn't it great? And they said, well, we'd like to be in the Olympics opening ceremony. And I was like, do you mean the Paralympics or the Olympics? And they said, no, we'd like to be in the olympics opening ceremony and i was like do you mean the paralympics or the olympics and they said no we'd like to be in an olympics opening ceremony they're both and they're both disabled young men and so i they and then i and i sort of they said we you we should do it shouldn't we claire and it was like they really pushed me like because they wanted to do it and um and then of course I thought what an

amazing thing if we can do it it'll prove to them and to me that like things that seem big are not so big you can do them yeah um and so we set off on that journey which was really great but I find young people really amazing and yeah so I suppose I really I've enjoyed being a mum from the beginning like honestly I just think why did I leave it so what was I thinking that was so I don't know what I thought but you know as soon as that happened I thought why didn't I do this earlier it's brilliant it's like you know it's an amazing thing and and obviously at times it's really overwhelming and there's so much to think about and be responsible for and be on the ball about um and I always feel like I feel like in all areas of my life I'm always running behind the train but

yeah particularly coming into these years and I was thinking that, you know, the whole sort of lockdown, you know, what it did give me with Scarlett was I was with her in a way as she sort of went into puberty. We were locked down and, you know, we had that whole period where I wasn't travelling and I've really been with her in a way that I wouldn't have been otherwise and being able to be much more um emotionally connected to what that means for her that I would have done my best but I would have been slightly distracted and I wasn't I was less distracted because I was at home all the time and I feel like that was a really lucky thing.

Yeah, that's quite valuable, isn't it? And I guess with what you're doing with your companies, it's something that has, it relies so much on you and the people in your team to keep that momentum, to keep that, you know, keep putting your foot on the accelerator for all the projects you want going. I mean, when you set up a company like that the what's the sort of idea of what you're doing versus the actual day to day of how you would even i don't know what it takes to run a theater company is it is it

is a different sort of job than you imagine when you start if you know what i mean does it turn into a different day job yeah i think it's quite a creative job in itself, you know, as much as making shows is. I mean, to be clear, I work with really brilliant people. And I suppose the thing that I didn't know at the beginning that I know now is to find people that are not like me and have really different skills to me. And, you know, you've got to be really clear in setting up a company, the areas that you're weak in. And so you begin to bring in people who are good at that and all of that and I suppose also the company is successful because there's a really complex mix of brains at work and that diversity of brains

it really makes things much more well thought out and also challenged and also you know but I feel like um yeah the day-to-day you know obviously running anything requires sort of really systematic and logistics and but it's also I always think running a company that works is a creative thing. And, you know, as much as you see the things that are the shows or the projects that we do in communities or the things that's outward facing, there's this creative organism that lots of people are making happen. And I think in our company in Diverse City, we've made lots of really creative decisions about how to run a company that suits people,

particularly people with caring responsibilities and children. And most of society doesn't value that very much or do much work around that. And I think I feel as proud of that as we don't get it perfect and we don't always get it right, but we're working on it. And I think there's some really obvious things that you can do that mean that people with children can be really productive but not work 80 hours a week did you find that when you'd had scarlet it's

like you had to kind of think a bit differently about how you approach work yeah definitely and um you know I knew I couldn't sort of work in a conventional way and it never occurred to you to not not work for it was like you always want to keep doing what you're doing yeah I worked in different I had a speed dial that I would turn up and down I think of it like that that sometimes my dials right up and sometimes my dials low down so it's difficult to describe like when people say full-time, part-time. I'm never really sure how to apply. No, especially if you don't work in a conventional job.

I actually spoke once to make-up artist called Lisa Eldridge and she described it as going into different lanes of traffic. Like sometimes you're on the left side, side of the middle, side of the fast lane, depending on what else is going on and what priorities you have at the time. I think if you're able to do that and respond to what you need at that time that's quite that's quite good to be able to do that isn't it yeah and I work with really brilliant people who

when I'm in a moment where I need to dial down because the rest of my life is you know my caring responsibilities or you know for Scar, other people are dialing up. Yeah, I think we, at its best, the structure can hold that, you know. I've certainly experienced that support and I probably need to work harder and do more to make sure that everyone in the company has that when they need it. But I think recognising that people work at different speeds and that you know as a parent things come out of the blue that you've got regular routines that you know it can be blown you know the dominoes I always feel like everything's like oh today and then the dominoes I always think it's like dominoes begin to fall and then you're like you're in a totally different day than you thought you you were you know um I remember saying to my mum when Scarlett was little

like I know I can work when I get to work I just can't work out how to actually get to work at this moment because there was like so many like little hurdles to go over um You know, and I've only got one child and I'm really conscious of that. You know, like, you know, in a situation, you know, you've got many more people on the racing track, you know, like, and everyone needs different things. But I do think that, like, solving how to enable women to achieve their potential in work with structures,

for work to be different. There's lots of things like, why is the traditional work day longer than the school day? That's a really bad idea. You wouldn't design it like that because everyone's got well lots of people have three three hours at the end of the day with where they haven't got any child care yeah or they have to find child care or you know so you wouldn't design you would design things to match yeah um and there's lots of things like that that

would be it could be done differently and you know yeah we've often talked about and we you know task-based contracts rather than time-based contracts like who cares what time you do your work in yeah what's for you you just got to do the tasks so yeah that's very true actually and i think that there's there's so much now as well as we can see that people can work actually much more effectively if they're you know with you know there's lots of companies now doing three-day weekends and this kind of thing in shorter weeks and changing the hours and people are just getting it done i think you know there's different ways to do it need to say task base is like a really smart way of doing it like okay just work when you need to work but this is what we're doing and this is the time

frame yeah and i don't want you to report to me or tell me when you're doing your work just do the work because often people say well how do you know if people have done their work and I just always think it's really obvious when someone hasn't done their tasks like you don't need to worry you don't need to monitor people just remove that whole level of monitoring yeah like just trust people if someone can't do their work it's not often because they're lazy it's often because other stuff is happening in their lives most people want to do a good job you can just relax on the monitoring fund exactly you know like it's a whole level of useless administration so um and also because obviously i hate being monitored myself

i don't like i don't like being told what to do and i don't like rules no that's my major problem actually generally in life but I hate rules and I I hate yeah well I think the theatre's perfect for you so what's your dream then what's the next sort of few things you want to do with with your projects and with your future things that are on the things you're trying do you work in sort of like working in like a vision of like a five-year or is it more like just as things come your way and conversations no we do have we plan things uh because often we have to raise the resources to make them happen so there's often like these sort of timelines and and and because everyone needs to get behind the ideas and you've often

got to sell the ideas really um so i do know a bit we'll do this big musical then I'm going to remount my show midlife which is about my menopause so is this something you did in was it 2020 or before yeah so I did it in 2020 when I say the show is about my menopause it's also about uh Jackie and Spice's menopause who are also in the show um but the the story of the show is it starts as if it's my one woman show uh about my menopause and they're there um in different capacities um spicer is audio describing the show on stage and jackie is sign language interpreting it and then they begin to interrupt me and say, yeah, that's not our experience.

And Spicer begins to speak as a sort of working class gay woman and Jackie speaks as a black woman and they just begin to sort of take it apart. And in that sort of breakdown of the show, I'm then forced to talk about what it's really like, not just the sort of shiny version. And yeah, so we're going to remount that show. I'm going to make, and I look forward to that.

We've just been doing some research and development and I think it's a good show. And I think it's got lots to say. And we finished performing it at the Barbican in Bristol-Olivic on like the 8th of March 2020. Oh, wow. Yeah, we got in, but we probably would have toured it from there. So it's sort of getting back to that.

Well, it's a conversation that can keep running, isn't it? Yeah, and indeed my menopause keeps running, so it won't be over uh uh before we do the show but yeah so I look I really look forward to doing that I mean I it's also performing which although you saw me at best before performing and although I'm talking about the mid that hasn't been my career it hasn't been performing it's been directing and facilitating yeah and enabling and then I suppose I just I don't know what happened at 50 or I probably just thought oh it's all about me I'm having my teenage time it's all about me well they do say that actually that there's like a like there's such a you know it's very likely that the the menopause

and that feeling also coincides with your child in a similar bit. So you sort of have two of that kind of energy in one household. But, yeah. Well, I think it's a great idea for a show. And I also want to talk to you a little bit about the other show you told me about before we started recording about swim. Yeah. Because we were talking about how you love swimming in the sea every day. And then you've met these other women that also swim every day and have made a...

How many women was it you had choreographed in the sea? Yeah, 60 women. 60 women? Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. And you're going to revisit that, are you? Yeah.

Yes, I really hope that we are going to do swim too. We did swim this year, and I began swimming in the third lockdown. I live at the seaside in Swanage in Dorset. I've been there. I did a school trip to Swanage. Did you? Yeah.

I reckon you probably went to the centre that's just around the corner from my house, actually, because there's one where I walk past every day that does field trips. It was a stayover one. We had two nights. One of the memorable things not specifically to do a swanage

but someone threw sand at someone else and it went a little bit in a girl's eye, she like rubbed her eye and it made a little scratch on her eyeball she's okay, but I've used that ever since as an example to the kids of why they shouldn't throw sand you know when things happen when you're a kid

like no I've seen it, it can scratch your eyeballs which is quite a graphic idea so they did, yeah don't throw sand. You know when things happen when you're a kid. Yeah. Like, no, I've seen it, it can scratch your eyeballs. Yeah, don't throw. Which is quite a graphic idea, so they did, yeah, don't throw sand at each other. Yeah, no, we had a happy school trip with Mr. Simmons, my teacher. And I do like the idea of this play because I think, you know,

this choreography and all these women swimming, because I do, I am a little bit fascinated by this cold water swimming. I can totally get it. I understand why it's good for you. I just struggle with the concept of actually swimming in the sea. But I do know that it's a good thing to do if you can do it. Yeah, it's been a great thing for me.

I know at this moment it's like, you know. Bracing? It's bracing because it's December. And obviously it's become a sort of phenomena in this moment. But I just started to do it because I live by the sea and it was the third lockdown. And, you know, I just thought, what is going to happen here? Am I going to, is the company going to fall apart?

Is everyone going to lose their jobs? It was just, you know, and it was a really hard time for Scarlett in the third lockdown. She'd started secondary school and then it's all been taken down. And it was just, it was just a really hard time for Scarlett in the third lockdown. She'd started secondary school and then it's all been taken down. And it was just a really... It was getting quite a bit gruelling, wasn't it, all of that? A really tricky moment. And I thought, God, if I swim every day, maybe.

And then I went down there in my wetsuit, met these two women on the beach. And they said, what are you wearing a wetsuit for? You can go in, it's March. And I said, well, because it's really cold. And they were like, you know, we're much older than you and we go in in swimsuits don't be so ridiculous um what's your number we'll put it in the what you shouldn't be swimming on your own anyway that you were to come here at eight o'clock in the morning oh and um it's not even at a decent hour no it's eight o'clock

in my come here at eight o'clock in the morning we'll put you in the whatsapp group and um and get out of your wetsuit and um that was that really and it was so it was sort of made me feel like i was in school again or in the girl guides in a really good way like i had to report to joanna and georgina initiation and yeah in the morning and then i met other women and um it's been a brilliant thing and then i suppose what happened is i it gave me a social scene yeah as well in the beginning of each day women to chat to like brilliant friendship has been like such an important thing in my life it's like yeah i And making new friends. Oh, it's great. I love making new friends. And it's, you know, it's a great thing. And it's so underrated.

It's not talked about enough, friendship. I agree. It's like totally shaped my life, friendship. You know, the people I've met have totally made the path that I'm on, you know. You know what, that's so true. Those relationships are not given as much space as all that because actually they're kind of the glue. And it's actually, you know what that's so true that those relationships are not given as much space as all that because actually they're kind of the glue and so it's actually you know it's my therapy

it's my comedy it's you know it's all of the good stuff like if uh if i didn't have my friends to call and go through or meet up with i think i'd be potty by now i completely i yeah i love my friends i work with lots of them as well and if I don't work with them I try to put them in shows so that I can work with them amazing so that it all fits together because it's more fun and um yeah I I think the swimming they were brilliant and then I would say in the seal yeah I work in theatre and we're not working at the moment and we were making films and doing what we could online, you know, but it was pretty... I suppose I realised how much of a part of my identity it was,

which sounds like, you know, obviously I've spent most of my adult life in it, but I realised that it was part of my soul, like making and creating things and I realised how sad it was making me not to, like, making and creating things. And I realised how sad it was making me not to do it, you know. And then I swam in the sea with these women and it was a lovely thing. And then I met Deborah in the sea

because someone said to me, you know, there's some sort of upwards of about 70 women who swim regularly. They're not all there every morning, but it's like a relay sort of system of about 70 women who swim regularly they're not all there every morning but it's like a a relay sort of system you know and um someone said to me deborah works in theater and i said does she which one's deborah and then um i got to talk to deborah in the sea and uh deborah's uh you know well-known theater director and she she happened to be in Swanage as well at that time for the lockdowns. And we had a chat. And then she just said to me in January this year,

because I'd sort of made her be my friend, as soon as I found out, I like began to change next to her and invite her to the beach hut to change. And she was, it was just fantastic it was a lovely friendship for me is a lovely friendship for me and she said oh i wonder if we can make a show with the swimming women for the jubilee oh amazing and so we did it on the longest day 21st of june and deborah made a show which was um we recorded conversations uh on our phones so we were all put in pairs um sort of 60 of us into uh and we recorded conversations and deborah then turned that into a script which the

women performed in our theater in the town and then i created well deborah said first of all could you create some movement for the show and i i thought about it and then I said to Deborah I think actually I'd really like to create a choreography with the women in the sea I think that's an extraordinary thing how lovely and uh fortunately Deborah thought it was a good idea I I thought it was a good idea because I sort of watched those films growing up you know the old musicals with yeah at the Busby Barclays as a song yeah absolutely all the that swimmer what's her name esther williams and all of that and i that was in my head and i was like oh it'd be so amazing to see middle-aged women doing that sort of thing because we're all different types of

swimmer you know some people are really good swimmers i wouldn't put myself in that category although i've got better and much braver but um yeah so I thought I think you know and what was amazing is that and you know everyone stood on the beach in front of an audience of 700 people in their swimsuit well we had costumes beautiful costumes designed and created by Jeanette, who's one of the swimmers. But nobody thought twice about being on. And I think, yeah, it was a really amazing message to young women perhaps in our town or young people that as you age, you do feel proud of your body, even though it's older and different.

In some ways, prouder. Yeah, because it's done so much. It's done so much.'s done so much and the things you were hung up about are not such a big deal to you anymore and you sort of appreciate where you're strong or capable or able to do the things you want to do like take yourself down to the beach and swim you know it become that's the thing you want it to do and that's what it does for you exactly that feels great exactly and that sort of focus on what your body can do not what it looks like is sort of like what can it do I also think as you get older it's

so important it feels like to keep looking outside yourself and keep open to all those other stories and everybody else's experience of life because as you get into sort of like your 40s, 50s, 60s, some people can start to close off a little bit and they get more sort of like calcified in their thinking. But actually the world evolves and if you want to keep with it and curious, you've got to keep open, haven't you? So listening to each other and making those friendships

and doing more risky things and all that sort of stuff is sort of all really it's really vital I think to keep you feeling youthful up here yeah I know I really agree I feel like with the swimming women it's because we range from you know probably mid to late 40s through to maybe late 70s that we provide role models for each other in but in all directions you know that's lovely and so I see women up ahead of me that I think wow they're so strong you know and it gives me really uh great hope about what I might become in the future and and it was really great to be an artist in my own town where I live because so much of my work sometimes has been about travelling and to make work where I live is really great.

And yeah, I really enjoyed it and I really love working with the women that I swim with every day. And it was very popular and there was life-size jellyfish and everyone was in the sea and we had amazing costumes. And people, you know, and I heard this person behind me during the performance go, wow, those women can really swim. And I was thinking, oh, yes, because they're swimmers. But it's like, yeah, people were impressive

and it was beautiful. It was beautiful. And not to put a damper on things, but I'm thinking it's glorious, but I'm also thinking of 13-year-old me watching my mum doing an en masse swimming choreography. Might not have been quite right. I was thinking, what's Scarlet's view on it is she

is she inspired by the wing thing is she interested in the arts or is it something and and is it important to you to try and get her to have that excitement about the same things well i think it's um it was always really i remember when once she was little she i can't remember what food it was i think it might have been like something like avocado or something. Like she was quite tiny and, you know, trying different foods and she couldn't, didn't like this food. I think it was avocado. And I just remember thinking, but we like avocado.

And then I thought, oh, hang on. She's not at all me. She's a different person and she will really not like things so it was like a funny thing because it was about food but it was like really in my head like no we're not a we we're definitely two people and I think that we are both alike and different you know and to Scarlett to be absolutely clear set up up the WhatsApp group for the women for the swim celebration and ran the WhatsApp group for me for a little while for payment to keep everyone. And she said to me, the women just communicate all the time. It's so exhausting.

You're right, Scarlett. So we really laugh. But she, yeah, so she often does little bits of jobs for me in projects um uh so that you know I can pay her for she can have some paid work from me and um yeah it's that thing of like realizing that you come you have you share a sort of family culture together and you know but you're really different as well and sort of the exciting thing is the ways in which you're different you know I mean they're superficial ways like she's really tidy and I'm very messy and sometimes me and Tom

get her to tidy up before people come around because she's like the only person in our family who can and you know she's really different in that way and you think that's great and then I think she must be like my mum my mum's tidy and you know and I suppose I recognize as I get older I see us as a thread you know me my mum Scarlett and I you know I can see the threads some of the threads like the tidiness has missed me out and I see you know I see the ways in which my mum and me are both similar and different and it's sort of fascinating but we have I suppose there's so much we share and I you know I really owe my mum a lot you know in so many ways that I never tell her um but I do sometimes tell her but you know especially enabling me to work when Scarlett was small and Tom always Tom is always sort of never says

my ideas are too ambitious or too or impossible he always just says what do we need to do to make this happen you know like he's you know um he's a stage manager production manager type he's just like well it's all logistics really brilliant we just got to work out the logistics and and my mum has been really important and you know looking after Scarlett at various moments she's they're both they're very close to each other and I think you know my dad died when Scarlett was a year old and that closeness between them is a sort of it's many things it's it's been an amazing influence on Scarlett that she'll remember all her life and it also was my mum's rebirth into this new time where she's without my dad you know that there's a there

was an exchange is the way I would describe it and yeah I think having a great mum is a thing you know it's really a big thing so I often think you know how yeah being a mum is a you have to wear it lightly and take it seriously at the same time because it's you realize the older you get you know I realized with my mum I still my mum can see so many things in perspective in the way that I get too lost in it and I think particularly getting older I can see that she can pull out she can pull out further from the situations and she knows that things will play out in the end in the right way and it's a really useful perspective that I often can't because I'm in the I'm too deep in it yeah um and she sees it a bit more and she's really perceptive around

you know Scarlett and her cousins and she can see how our children are developing and she's been you know as Tom always jokes to me she's she's a brilliant you know ultra qualified grandparent you know because she was a reception class teacher so she actually does know all the stuff that I really don't like the phonetics and all of that you know like yeah um but yeah I think that thing of I definitely see us as a you know we're like sort of a paper chain of dollies you know and we connect to each other and some things come through all of us and some things are different and yeah I think that thing of realizing your children are like you but but really different as well is quite exciting and then I suppose I sort of see that things Scarlett's been really into like she's really

into animals she's always really cared for her pets and been really interested in them and she does all the work for them herself um you know that's amazing I was never like that as a kid you know um and I you know I watch the way that she's really deeply and she walks a dog every day that's not our dog and she's really deeply interested in animals and I think that's amazing because where did that come from yeah like that that's you know she's brought that into our house entirely in herself you know and yeah people are amazing aren't they because they're born i mean i really believe in nurture a lot but there is a sense that people also arrive with like a secret inside them that is coming to life about who they are. Do you know what I mean?

Because you think, you look at siblings and brothers and sisters and you think, oh, but same conditions, but such different people. I know. And actually so much of what you're saying, firstly, I think there's a lot of ways that it's so lovely about the culture of family, but the differences within it. And also I've realised there's a sort of through thread and a lot of what you're talking about is what if you've got you know shared passions with someone and a bond

it might be a friendship or whatever the relationship is you can sort of take that bit for granted as the foundation but actually it's the bits where you differ that can really bring the strength to that to that union whether it be how family is how friendship dynamic works or when you're in a theater and when you're all working together and they're creative and you're all like well there's the underlying bit is we all care about the project got that but actually what are we all bringing to the party and that's that's sort of like a thing that seems to run through a lot of what you've been talking about but also in actually recognizing and then really celebrating and being excited by that,

exciting the differences. And it's so true when you first, especially when you said about, you know, Scarlett eating that avocado and you being like, but we like avocado. It's so true, especially with your first baby so much.

All the time you're like, oh, is this person or that person? And you're like, hang on a minute, they're just them. And let's let that bit fall away a little bit and then really be curious about them and then it's really exciting because there's all this stuff you're like wow I never thought of the world that way but how nice to see it through your eyes it's really exciting isn't it it's really lovely well I'm excited about your project I do have one last thing to ask you because I do appreciate about being different

with your children but please do tell me that Scarlett does love a bit of disco dancing. I hope that bit has passed down. Yeah, she took part in the disco attempt at Bestful. She was there with her cousin Bertie. She, yeah, excellent timing. Because obviously one difference I can't bear is dancing out of time so I'm pleased to report that she dances completely in time um that would be something I would have to I would find very difficult in a child yeah the child of a disco dancing champ and your classroom

out of time I'd find that. That would be a stretch, I think, for me. I would have to go on an awareness course or something. I'd be like, whoa, they can't dance in time. So no, she took part. She danced very well as part of it. And it's really funny because when we made that promotional film, she said the night before I was saying, oh, the film the film you know because you're always sort of in the rush or well I am it's sort of in the project and you think and

then the film company's saying so who's going to be inside the glitter ball the demonstrator you know and I'm saying to Scarlett at home they want to demonstrate her and she was like um well that should be you mum and I said well I you know because obviously quite a lot my work is about enabling people to fulfill their potential and um so I was thinking is there anyone in the group who could be the person inside this room and Scarlett was like no it should be you mum uh you should be the demonstrator and I was like in one way obvious uh because there's part of me it goes yes I was a disco dancing champion I will not cock it up and the other part of me that's like well you know genuinely I always want to give people

opportunities um and then she was just like you know oh mum don't overthink it don't just do it please just do it I know she said if someone't overthink it don't just do it please just do it i know she said if someone else does it they don't know the dance that well they'll just cock it up and we'll be there forever just do it so um that really made me laugh yeah you did a good job have you kept any of your disco dance champion outfits um well my mom over the years um has slimmed down a lot of our stuff. I mean, obviously, we should be also storing it. I don't think we have any of the costumes.

I think they went back into the wild, you know, and were given to other children. I probably bought them on eBay. Trying to come and have a look at some of my leotards. My mum made that in 1983. There's some that really shouldn't have gone. I remember fondly a pink, yeah, a pink all-in-one. All-in-ones.

Yeah. Like a unitard type thing. Yeah. Can't beat it. Absolutely fantastic, really. And nowadays. You weren't lying when you talked about glamour. No.

And we had the Swimmers Christmas Disco on Saturday, which was excellent. That was fun. It was really good there was four hours of dancing and actually I did dance solidly for four hours really that's a long time

it is a long time and I hadn't really thought about it until I was saying to this week to the osteopath I've got this pain in my left knee don't worry they can replace them too she was like what have you been up to i said oh yes there was saturday um i hope you slipped in lots of songs referring to like like under the sea and yeah by lakie lee and things like that yeah there's like so many

sea themed when i began to do the uh soundtrack for that show i had such a great time there you go i don't know if there's a job where you can just put together, well, yeah. Playlist. Playlist. I suppose that's a DJ, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Don't worry, that exists.

I was going to say, okay, I won't have to invent that job then. Maybe I could become that. But it's such good, brilliant fun finding sea-themed songs. Yeah. Really a thing. Kept you on the dance floor for four hours. You did a good job. Yeah.

Well, thank you very much. And I can't to um till your new play opens that sounds amazing as well the old edward bristol and all the other projects as well midlife and everything thank you very much thank you so much claire thank you sophie so you know my name back cozy how lovely is claire and i'm so impressed with all she's done to set that up i just think when people have got that kind of drive and they just think i really want to i feel compelled to make things leave the world a better place than i found it i think that's so brilliant so optimistic meanwhile i've made my paste which is going to go on my stir fry sort of hoisin sauce lime peanut butter chili sauce kind of thing i'm a bit worried i've made it a bit spicy do you think my kids will still eat it i hope so um and yeah the rest of my day is quite mellow

next week i'm recording another three podcast chats in amongst also getting started with the promotion for my new album stuff. That's exciting. On Wednesday, I'm singing with the BBC Orchestra for something on Radio 2 called The Piano Room. And then the following week, I go off on tour to Europe for the first time

in absolutely ages. I can't wait. I'm playing Paris and three gigs in Germany and Amsterdam and Poland and Belgium oh it's gonna be so cool I feel very very lucky that I get the chance to do that again I'm very excited and I've been really thrilled by the response to the new single Breaking the Circle so if you're someone that commented on that thank you very much I read all the comments and it was really lovely it's, it's funny. I always get excited about a new single,

but this one I felt like almost like that sort of, the way I used to feel in my early, my first few singles I ever brought out, like real, I don't mean like nervous. I felt just properly excited, like woo, get to actually have it out in the world. It's felt really good. I think I do feel quite optimistic overall.

I think this album feel quite optimistic overall. I think this album, because it's another one I've done with Ed, I've got that lovely feeling where the success of it is just in the fact that I've managed, I've been able to make it and I'm very proud of it. And then, you know,

whatever happens next, I'm quite at peace with it because it's the album I wanted to make. It's a really nice feeling. I don't think I used to have that in the good old days when I was signed to a major label and it was all about getting A-listed on Radio 1. I think that was a lot more pressure. This, I don't think I used to have that in the good old days when I was signed to a major label and it was all about getting a listed on radio one I think that was a lot more

pressure this I don't feel the pressure I've got the songs I love to sing live and I'm introducing some new ones and this is just another album I've done that I really like how nice is that um please don't play this back to me if the album flops. I will be very upset to hear my optimistic little tone. Anyway, I will love you and leave you. Thanks so much for joining me again today. And I hope whatever you're up to, everything is going all right for you and you're feeling okay.

And as I'm saying this, I'm looking out the window and I can see my neighbor's house where they've got a huge magnolia and I can actually see some buds on the tree that for me is always the sign that spring is on the way and doesn't spring always feel so welcome not long now guys all right see you next week bye Thank you. you