Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 94: Hannah Fry

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Hannah Fry is a mathematician, author, and radio and television presenter. She applies maths to pretty much everything in her life. She gave a TEDTalk in 2014 on the maths of dating, and in 2022 she made a documentary called ‘Making Sense of Cancer with Hannah Fry’ about her personal experience of cervical cancer, in which she unpacked the surprising statistics behind cancer diagnosis, treatment and success. It’s a fascinating watch which I have recommended to many friends.Hannah has two daughters and she shared a tip with me that she heard for when they are teenagers: that a parent should ‘be the sides of the swimming pool’, let them get on with swimming, and just be there when they want to come back to the side.Hannah lives by a decision-making tool which she calls regret minimisation which is where you assess a decision you have to make based on all the evidence you have before you at that time, very logically. This way, she says, you cannot beat yourself up for that decision further down the line. Hannah made me laugh when she described applying that decision-making tool to whether she should have children - and then admitted she is 100% geek! Spinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing, but can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Hi, how are you? I am feeling in quite a good mood today. The sun is really beautiful. today. The sun is really beautiful. I know I probably always start chatting to you, telling you about the weather, but it does play a big part in your mood, doesn't it? And also, today is my day off in the week. So this is Sunday, and it's been quite a hectic week.

It's been a bit silly in parts. Let me tell you about it. So this week has been Eurovision week, as in the final was yesterday night. For what it's worth, I wanted the finish entry to win. I love that finish entry. Cha, cha, cha, cha, cha, cha, cha, yeah. Anyway, that is not what I was going to tell you about. I was going to tell you about the fact that I had a couple of jobs I was doing in Liverpool. Not least a very, very lovely thing of singing in the Eurovision Village on Friday night, which was awesome. But I had work on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, all in Liverpool. I'd also committed, Richard and I had committed,

to DJing at our seven-year-old and 11-year-old's primary school for a sort of end of sats celebration thing. I don't know, it was during school hours and we did like a half-hour DJ set disco for the reception, then 45 minutes for years one, two, three, 45 minutes, four, five, six. So that was on Fridayiday afternoon so i went up to liverpool on thursday i came back from liverpool on thursday night then we dj'd at the school during the day on friday then i got back in the car 3 30 as soon as i finished pelted it four hours 15 minutes no loo breaks thank you very much, all the way to Liverpool. Arrived 8.30 outside the Eurovision Village.

I was on stage in my sequins and all that. 9.10. Yes, it can be done. Then stayed the night. Finished another bit of work yesterday and then came back in the car just minutes before the final started on the TV. So that's my experience of Eurovision. While I was up there on Friday,

I did bump into Mae Muller, who is our UK entry, was our UK entry. And I'm very, very fond of Mae. I've known her for a long time. Her aunt is a very good friend of mine. So I've known her since she was a little girl. And I think she did brilliantly. And I know that the UK did not do very well on the scoreboard. But as I said to Mae myself May myself when I saw her I think she'd already put in all the hard work and already got the spoils because everybody was so fond of her and the song she was singing was such a big hit so cheers to you May Muller and cheers to Liverpool for hosting such a big Eurovision honestly it was fantastic and the atmosphere was incredible so that was all really lovely and then uh today it's been a mixture of like taking kids to parties and things like that, kind of bobbing about day. But it's beautiful out there. Just got in and it's like 21 degrees or something crazy. So that's lovely.

in Mexico next weekend. I know. Guadalajara. Where shall I head? What shall I do? I'm going to try and pack as much as I can in there. I'm not there for very long. Anyway, I am really excited about today's podcast guest, of course. She is someone I've been a fan of for ages. Her name is Hannah Fry. And I'm sure you all know her already, but if you don't. So she's a maths professor. And I suppose you'd so she's a maths professor and I suppose you'd say she's a sort of what would you say like a data maths communicator so she presents tv programs about involve data and mathematics but it's done in a really fun way so she did a series with bbc where she took apart sort of aspects of modern life so might be, I don't know, your Alexa or a food delivery app, things like this. And so explain how they work.

But she's really open and generous with her wisdom and funny. And I really, really liked her before we met. She also presented a really incredible programme all about her experience with ovarian cancer, a really incredible program all about her experience with ovarian cancer which led her to have a radical hysterectomy when she was only 38 and her children were only two and four so a very very big thing to go through and if you haven't watched that documentary I really recommend it it's on iPlayer as well and yes I went over to her house her little girls are now I'm going to say four and six her house is lovely colorful like mine but much much tidier and uh yeah when I turned up I just had a very strange experience with ASMR on the tube do you know what ASMR is I imagine you do

even my seven-year-old knows what ASMR is it's the thing where people do that like talking whispering and like make like weird sounds and eat crunchy food because some people find it pleasurable but I don't know you might be like me I cannot stand the sound of people whispering in adverts like just ban it I don't want someone whispering my ear I don't like it anyway don't worry that's not what's going to happen to you now what's going to happen to you now is two women having a nice conversation and I will see you on the other side. All right, see you later.

I'm really thrilled to see you today, Hannah. Not as thrilled as I am. You're in my house. I've been really looking forward to coming and talking to you. And just as a total aside, I had such a funny thing happen to me on the tube on the way here. In quite a busy carriage,

the man next to me started watching ASMR videos with the sound on full. Lovely. So I spent most of the journey listening to someone eating food, like really noisy. It was really odd. But he didn't seem at all phased so we could all hear this loud noisy eating I used to when I got the train quite a lot I used to just by chance have a spare pair of

headphones on me that came in handy so much that I always made sure I had them because what you would do is if somebody was watching something really loudly I would go over and rather than being like excuse me can you put headphones in But make it more of like a kindness thing. Like, oh, I've got this bad pair of headphones. Do you need them? You'd offer headphones to someone else. And they would never take them. I've done this.

Genuinely, I've done this. But it's a device. Exactly. That's really clever. Top tip, everyone. Wow. I'm wondering where you put an end to that. There's so many things other people do that are annoying.

And where do I stop with that? I can see you're, I don't know, eating your food a bit messy. I've actually got some napkins with me. I have done it with a tissue on an aeroplane as well. Really? I mean, this makes me sound like so much more of a passive-aggressive person than I actually am. Well, it's disguised as kindness. Actually, it's just deep irritation of other human beings.

Oh, they can be so annoying they can be um let's talk about the here and now what are you up to at the moment what are your current projects well so um i uh finished a series um on bbc2 last year called secret genius and it's just found out that it's been recommissioned yay about it's very good thank you i loved it um yeah i really like it actually because i think that it's been recommissioned. Yay, it's very good. Thank you. I loved it. Yeah, I really like it actually because I think that it's, I think Science Telly has this habit of being like person who knows

what they're talking about telling you facts, right? Or telling you things. And what I really wanted to do with that series was just break that because I think that actually there's so much joyfulness and so much irreverence that can come from this stuff. And then also because I think that actually there's so much joyfulness and so much irreverence that can come from this stuff um and then also just the fact that actually the whole idea of the series is that an entire team of people come up with amazing stuff to put me in front of and

then just feel my reaction so as a life it's uh the kind of thing you can go for yeah so I'm filming the second series of that and then I have a new Radio 4 show. I haven't decided on the title yet. And Rutherford and Fry, which is my long-running podcast too. And also The Future. I'm also... There's too many. You're quite right. Also The Future.

My specialist subject today is you, so don't worry. I've got you. Even the cheat sheet. Yes, that's a big project I've been doing with Bloomberg um and it's quite different working for an American company I tell you really yeah it's amazing just production wise in terms of like how they emphasize things yeah and support you and uh the intellectual freedom that they give you as well. Oh, that's good. It's kind of interesting. Because I think that it's such a big market that it means that you can go quite niche and still be appealing to a lot of people.

Whereas I think that when you work for the BBC, you know, it's licence payer funded, so you have to make sure that it appeals to everybody. Whereas I think Bloomberg has this freedom that they know that they have this captive audience of people who work in banks basically and so they don't have to shy away from from really being quite thinky okay well that's lovely i like things that are thinky think he is good i think he's very good i like when you're you, you're so aware of data and science, what's it like when you encounter, in a casual setting,

people who think they have a grasp on sort of, you know, pseudoscience? How good are you at listening to stuff that you know is essentially bollocks? Okay, so I actually think I'm okay at it it and there's a few reasons for that so the first is that i have differing opinions on alternative medicine to members of my immediate family okay um but at the same time i really deeply respect their opinions on it yeah even though we end up coming down on different sides of things. Because I think that actually when you talk to somebody who has a different view to you, if you put in the effort to work out where you actually disagree,

I think it's often on much smaller things than you might imagine. Yeah, that's often true. So my cousin, for example, is a homeopath, a practicing homeopath. And both of us agree that you know when you go and see a doctor for eight minutes it's not enough time to really get to the heart of what's wrong with you and both of us agree that actually your best care is where somebody gets to know you over a long period of time and where you get the consistency of that that sort of interaction and most of us agree that for uh both of us agree that for a lot of you know very minor

ailments like rashes and um you know and like scratches and tickles and things actually turning to pharmaceuticals is often unnecessary and can be detrimental so i think that you know we agree on all of those things i think the only place that we disagree is the line at which that crosses over yeah but i guess sometimes you might be dismantling something for the sake of being able to dismantle it intellectually whereas actually you might be in some cases derailing a part of what makes a person tick and makes them function and makes them feel good about the world because most of us were just trying to establish some sort of sense of, not control exactly, necessarily, but just an understanding of the world around you that doesn't make you feel like a free-floating chaos. We've all got different ways of doing that, different approaches. Totally, totally agree.

I did this programme last year for the BBC, which was about people who had chosen not to be vaccinated. Yeah. And it was controversial. But I tried to do the same thing. I went into it. There were seven people who hadn't been vaccinated and they were sharing a house together for a week. And I spent a week with them talking to them

about the different aspects of their lives and the reasons why they'd made that decision. And there was one woman in particular. She was called Vicky. And, you know, she's, I think, you know, she would describe herself as feisty, right? And I think that that's a good description of her. She, you know, went in and she wanted to make her voice heard.

And I, you know, spent this week talking to her and it wasn't always the easiest of relationships, but I think overall I got on well with her. But what I thought was really interesting was that again, right, both of us agreed that the pandemic was bad. Both of us thought that it was bad that people died. Both of us agreed that actually the vaccine

does have side effects and some people's lives will have been damaged by the vaccine. And really, ultimately the only thing that it came down to was how you count whether a side effect is because of the vaccine or just after it like that's it that's literally the only thing that we disagreed on and then when you hear about her story her history she had um you know i think she broke her back when she was in her 20s and was on really serious pain medication for a really long time

and has this difficulty about, you know, informed consent, right? Like, her worldview is completely framed because of that. And it doesn't matter if you sit someone like that down and you say, but 5% of this and 23%, it doesn't matter. No. Because you're trying to, like like use facts to talk about something which is a deeply personal and emotional experience yeah and how you feel about consent i mean we're all championing that mainly completely i've got two girlfriends two close friends and both of them

went down the route of not being vaccinated and we would have a chat about it and then we just sort of agreed to disagree really yeah um so i i understand exactly where you're coming from and i totally get that idea about it's your body, you know, if you've had that conversation, if you're armed with the facts and you've still decided that's what the path, you know, there's not really much further you can go, actually. But it can be tricky when it comes down to personal relationships sometimes when you've got those differences of opinion.

I've actually got quite a lot of friends where they've got quite different opinions to me, but I actually feel like it's helped me be less, buy less to that sort of binary side of like social media where it's like I'm right you're wrong no I'm right you're wrong when actually if I know people where we've got really big difference of opinion on some of those big you know debatable topics but we're still able to bridge loads of gaps and understand where each other's coming from it's actually been quite beneficial I think I totally agree I totally agree there's this cabbie who I use all the time he like I see him sometimes I spend more time with him than my actual family um but he is like so opposite to me in every possible

regard right like reads the daily mail um you know has all of the classic cabbie views yeah but I just love spending time with him because he offers this perspective on the world that I just don't hear from my, you know, like all my friends are sort of middle class. Yeah. And I just don't hear the view that he gives me. And I have the best conversations with him

because both of us are coming to those conversations with respect for the other person. Yeah. And a smile on your face is probably as you're having quite a bouncy conversation about these things. Exactly. I mean, I think he's wrong. Yeah. I mean, don't tip him at the end. Never.

You still didn't agree with me, but thank you for the ride. Four stars. Three, actually. Exactly. And obviously my podcast talks about parenting and i did wonder how your love of data and maths did any of that apply in your decision to become a mother oh my gosh um did it that's a really interesting question actually i've never thought about that so it's quite a rich topic it is quite a rich topic I mean crikey um in terms of the decision so I do think that I try and live my life according to I mean this is so nerdy you're really good I'm so ready I live my life according to a regret

minimization model okay essentially what you do I think I might be like that I didn't term it that way yeah I mean look you can have that phrase you can wear it with a badge of pride um yeah essentially what I always try and do is pick the path that I will look back on and regret the least and so in a way that makes sense it gives you this freedom for uh you're kind of untethered from bad decisions then because you made them with the information that you had at the time have you always lived like that I think so yeah certainly since I became an adult yeah that's a really helpful way the perspective of that because I have a big I'm very anti the idea of regret and I funnily enough I had a girlfriend recently

talking about a regret she had about a boyfriend she split up with and I was saying you are the same person the way you would have made the decision you have to trust that you were the same person then that you are now and if you decided then he wasn't right for you you can't look back and be like

oh but now this, that and the other because you only had what you had at the time and you make the best decision for yourself in that here and now. And it's a really unhelpful little whirlpool to get stuck in with the idea that you now have got this extra information and you should look back and done something else. Because you didn't have that information at the time. No, you didn't.

You've got to trust in yourself. Trust in that kernel of the you that's always been you. Totally agree. To have made a decision that you thought was the best thing for yourself. So I think the only additional thing that, you know, having this label for it, as it were, is that in that moment you have that sort of extra process, which is, right, I am making this decision based on the information I have right now. And this is the decision that I think I will regret the least.

And I trust myself that that's the decision I'm making. I love that very much, actually. Yeah. So then I think that in terms of having children, I do think that there was a bit of regret minimisation. I do think that there was as much an emotional decision as a rational one, which was I thought that I would rather look back on my life and regret the time that I gave up for children, right,

rather than the children that I gave up for time. Mm-hmm. I love that there's such an analysis to it. I know, I'm sorry. The thing is, you cut me open and I just bleed nerd, right? There's nothing else to me. I still play Tetris on my old game boy from the 80s i i'm cut from the same cloth um but i do think it's a big life decision and i was wondering

because i was thinking in terms of topic you could you could go very deep on analyzing how having a child affects all aspects of your life. Are you tempted to delve deeper? I mean, look, I think that sometimes you've just got to close your eyes and jump, haven't you? Because your ones are little as well. They're only three and six. They are. So you're still in the thick of the, you know, little children life.

Yeah. The busy bit. Look, I also think that actually if you sat down and tried to rationally look at the arguments for and against having children, then I don't think anyone would ever have them but because what I think you can't really take into account is just the magnitude of how much they give you you know I don't think that I remember before I had when I

was pregnant with my first kid I remember there was a mum that I was talking to and she said oh you just won't you just won't understand the love like you just don't understand it until you've experienced it and at the time it got my back up a little bit and I think it still would now actually if I hadn't yet had a child um because I was like look I've loved before I am capable of imagination. You know, I can conceive of what it will feel like. But the thing is, I just sort of think that you can't. I just think that you can't understand what it's like to be in a position where you are totally and completely obsessed with a little creature,

whether they look at you or not, right? Like there's some days my littlest, who's like much less snuggly than the eldest, getting a hug from her, I think it's because she plays hard to get with the hugs, you know? Yeah. But like there are some days where I just almost stalk her. Please be my friend. Please, please, please please please just look at me right it's like the most

extreme crush yeah um and I just don't think that you can ever quite take that into account in a in a rational analysis of whether to be a parent or not no and I think that person saying that to you is like a sort of like a big no-no because for anyone that either can't or chooses not to become a parent, it's like a thing that you just don't want anyone to have in their head. The idea of anyone passing on to someone else, if this doesn't happen, you're going to miss out on a really big life experience. It's just like a line you don't really cross. So I would get my back up too because it's like, how could you say that?

and you don't really cross. So I would get my back up too because it's like, how could you say that? However, once you have a child, it's like your heart does get sort of turned inside out a little bit. And I think if I'm brutally honest, if it was a kind of deathbed moment for me, I think being a good mum would be enough for me

if that's all I've managed to do. Which is kind of crazy, really. Because there's lots of other things I want to get on with and I hope I'm doing. But if I had had to choose one thing I think I'd choose that oh gosh now I'm thinking about whether I would as well I feel slightly guilty that I don't know if I would I think it's just because of the responsibility really yeah and I feel like you've got these people and you're trying to shape them yeah and like I think of myself as the flippers on a pinball machine a little bit like that the ball's doing whatever it'll do and I'm

just trying to go no maybe try that way oh not that way and just trying to like counter wherever I can oh god it's exhausting and there's one description of this was specifically about having a teenage daughter which I have not yet got to that point um but it was that when you have a teenage daughter you have to be the sides of a swimming pool so you are surrounding them and supporting them but you have to let them go off and swim and then be there when they want to come back to the site but they've got to go off and learn how to swim themselves you know and I just I thought that's really a lovely idea that is a lovely idea I like the fact that it includes a bit of risk and independence totally um one of the really good bits of advice I was

given when I started the podcast actually was from Kathleen Moran who said when they're teenagers you have to turn yourself into a bit of a friendly cow sort of mooing at them gently so basically you actually know a lot of what is going on and you're kind of in your head working out how to problem solve and help them but when you approach them because they're at this point where they're doing such changes neurologically in terms of independence and breaking away from you the way to keep them open and communicative is to sort of make yourself a little bit daft in their presence so that you're regarded as sort of a friendly how was your day you know i mean gentle bovine soft but not kind of going yeah i hear what you say but actually i had a similar thing happen when i was 16 and this is what i did and let me well you say that but that's ridiculous because you're

this you're 14 and blah blah because the little barriers can come up and then, boom, it's gone. I'm going to remember that one. So, friendly cow by the side of a pool. That's what we're heading for here. I mean, the things that I've mostly had to deal with so far are not on that same level, but they have involved a friendly cow. My eldest, she really struggled to give up a bottle of milk at bedtime. She really just used it for comfort

she just really wanted it a lot anyway we kind of we told her that it was going to stop on this day and we built it up and then we said you know this um like gonna give the bottles off and send them off in the post and all of the normal stuff but it still wouldn't work so what was my um my then husband would go into a different room and call through and pretend to be the friendly cow and say that she just didn't have any milk left just like like these visceral images of him like hiding in a room in the house just doing an impression of a cow oh my god like thank you yeah yeah exactly love I'm so sorry. I can't give you any more milk. But, you know.

That's really sweet. Did it work? I mean, she doesn't drink milk now. So eventually we broke her. Yeah, and when she told you, you were like suddenly like, what happened to that? There was this cow. Was that real?

You're like, um, no. Yeah, I'm going to embody that cow when she's 14 to 17. Yeah, exactly. And did you always, I always mean you're always going to keep working was was work going back to work with babies ever a thing you thought about was it just uh of course I'll work yeah so hmm so this was a um it was more something that happened automatically rather than something that I definitely wanted to do. But then again, at the same time, I also, I'm not very good at stopping.

So I don't know if I ever would have been able to not. But my husband was, he was working as a sports writer. And this was just like, you you know more and more things went digital and everybody was being put freelance and so on and this was at the same time that my career was really taking off so as his work declined mine increased so it just made sense that he would be the main carer and as a result of that I did go back to work I think crazily quickly um and looking back I do think I mean look regret minimization but you've got to take into account you know postpartum hormones which are all over the place and I did go back to work too too quickly for both of them I

think it's funny how you put yourself under that pressure sometimes especially with my second actually I was like well I've already done this so I should be able to do this really quickly now. How quickly did you go back? It won't sound that quick, but I had him early. So he was born nine weeks early, and my manager came to see me when I was in hospital, recovering from, this was my second C-section, and he said, great news,

in 10 weeks you'll be filming a video for the new single. And I thought he was joking, but he wasn't. So I guess my work is a bit fluid, because it's not like I go back into an office, it's not like I have to be there 9 to 5. But I did find myself doing a dance video... Oh, gosh. ..with my friend, one of my really old school friends there,

as a milk monitor. So she would come and tell me every three hours when I had to go and express. And the whole crew would sort of stop. And I was in heels, mini skirt, like little belt thing, feeling really weird doing a dance routine. And then afterwards, they like slightly stretched the video image to make me look slimmer.

And I've regretted that ever since, actually. I think that was a really bad decision and I should have been a bit stronger in myself. But I don't think you're capable of being, I mean, look look I feel the same way about certain things that I did around that time um and actually one of the things was that the the the shame almost maybe shame's the wrong word but I so I went back to filming after I was filming a series that was maybe eight weeks after my first baby and um i didn't have somebody coming in and saying it's time to pump and so as a result my milk just completely dried up that's quite traumatic i tried like i tried to do it but it's really hard really hard really hard to be like

okay everybody everyone down tools you've got to sit here and wait and i just go off it's really it's very and as progressive as the world is you know sitting there with a freaking i know i mean talk about being a cow right yes oh my gosh all roads are going to lead to cows not good i think as well um so i've quite often found myself particularly the older i've got and the younger everybody else that I meet on like sets and stuff they're still very young and most of them have not had kids and that's just not even a part of their you know way of thinking yet so that me being like oh I need to stop and do this or kid stuff is a bit like just met with a bit of a you know I'm sure that it's a big deal for you

but I don't really understand why you're telling me the kind of thing and I think um yeah it's hard to give that space sometimes in a professional thing particularly if in yourself you're thinking okay it's eight weeks and I want to I've got this great opportunity to film this series and I'm just going to get through it and I really feel for you the milk thing because I think sometimes when you've had a new baby and you're away from them that is your big connecting thing totally it's like a thing that reminds you I have I am just a new mum and I have just had a baby and yeah it keeps you feeling somewhere connected with them even when you're apart but I think that that's why you need people to step in and protect you I think that in those moments actually when you're trying to be everything for everyone

actually I think you need somebody else to step in and just take care of you you know for yourself to remind you that actually your experience in that time is more important than anything else and you're good at listening to that if you get that person saying I mean I'm no I'm pretty crap at that actually I suppose and also the regret minimization it's still amazing to do a tv thing and that's really exciting to do those. I didn't need to do it. I didn't need to do it. I did not need to do it.

I didn't even like it. Oh. In that case, sorry. I know, exactly. The thing is though, I didn't... Maybe you learnt something there too. Did you notice though,

when you got pregnant, did people kind of drop you? I think for me, well, the first couple of babies was more just an alien thing because i was the only one from my girlfriends who'd had a baby then so i had my first two not particularly young but both in my 20s and it was just not a stage that anyone else was going through at that time so i wouldn't say it's that i got dropped well actually professionally i think it affected me

a lot yes um personally no it's all cool. But professionally, this was... So my first two were when I was still, you know, pop, dance and trying to make music that would be played on Radio 1 and it was just not... I just felt like being a mum was just not compatible with that at all. I think things have changed... And this is, like, nearly 20 years ago now. Yeah. I think things have changed a lot.

But then I felt like being a mum was a really frumpy thing to do to my career if I'm honest and I think that's probably why I spent a long time recalibrating how how is it going to work for me how how did I feel about being selfish about my work how was I going to push myself what opportunities did I have how to keep the boulder moving basically because sometimes it does feel like that like this big yeah stone you've got to keep the momentum otherwise just grounds to a halt and I wouldn't I knew I wanted to keep working because I didn't feel like me without work is part of who I am I love my work very much so I think I had to be a bit selfish really but I think it took me years to be truly like more at peace with it when you say it's 100% there actually probably

did you the third fourth and fifth time around did you get it more right yes I actually enjoyed that a lot more and I felt better about it and with my fifth so I had him at 39 I felt like it was a bit of a superpower almost I felt really great Like I'm doing things I love and I'm pregnant. And woohoo, I think the happy hormones were there for that. That was always sort of my plan. So I know that, you know, talking about regret minimisation was that I knew that I was doing this at the time. I knew I was going back earlier than I wanted to.

But in my head, I had always, because I was one of three, right? So I had two sisters. And then I had always because I was one of three right so I had two sisters um and uh then I had two girls and in my head it was always like okay I'm gonna just get the point where this boulder is moving and rolling and then I'm gonna have the third and the third will be the time when I get to really enjoy it when I get to sit down and drink a cup of tea and like I mean I know this sounds really sad but like because um my partner was was was the main carer just really stupid things like pushing a pram to Tesco's like I didn't really get to do that you know and I know that sounds so strange like obviously you know every night I would be like feeding her and cuddling both of them and you know putting them

to bed and playing with them all of that stuff but just the really mundane stuff like you'll see over there I have this um poem on my wall that's about cutting an orange open and sharing it with your two kids which is just so mundane but it's like the really mundane stuff I just never got to do it yes and then that was always my plan was like wait a few years and then you get your chance and then unfortunately that was uh life had other plans i've had other plans yeah but then well firstly i would say if it reissues you at all i don't feel like i did actually do any of that any better with any of the babies you didn't cut any oranges i've still not done a cutting orange sharing a thing i should do that but the i think the ability to be in the moment and take all the best bit from baby partly i think i'm actually if i'm totally honest i think i like baby bit but i don't think i'm

brilliant at that bit of childhood actually and i've realized this and acknowledge that that's okay because the more kids i have people go oh you must really love babies and i'm like that's really not what it's about. I think I'm better when they get a bit older. Three plus. I love all the crazy conversations. I love the little satellites you can go off on. So I don't know if you necessarily would be able to get better.

But secondly, I mean, cut yourself some slack, Hannah. I mean, you might have had a plan, but you know that's not how life works. I know. And also, what you've done is given yourself... I love the fact that you're now doing a show called The Future with Hannah Fry, whereas two years ago you were making a documentary that questioned all of that. Yes, this is true.

You know, that's huge. And by the way, your documentary where you talk about your cancer and diagnosis and the way people handle diagnosis and the options they have, I've watched it more than once. I recommend it to billions of people. I think it's brilliant. Thank you. Have you been able to watch it since?

Yeah. You have? Okay, that's quite impressive because I'd imagine it goes back to a very raw place. Yeah. So this is when I was 36, I was diagnosed with cervical cancer. And when it first started, well, okay, I started like writing a diary, which I think a lot of people do. It's very therapeutic. diary which I think a lot of people do it's very therapeutic and then just because of my job um and also because you know it's just quicker and then I started just recording little bits and pieces and so initially the footage that I was capturing was never intended to do anything or be anywhere and then I have a friend who makes documentaries, really beautiful documentaries.

And I spoke to him, I called him, and he kind of persuaded me to take it much more seriously, to take the filming much more seriously. So there are, I would say, there are bits of footage which I have had watched, which are not in the film, which I think are, I don't know if I'll ever watch them again. No, you don't need to. You don't need to go back to that.

But in terms of the bits of the film, the reason why I can watch it still is because, for me, it wasn't a film about me. It was never supposed to be a film about me, or at least in my mind it wasn't. It was a film that included some of my footage because that gave me permission to really talk about cancer care in this country yeah and the way in which we make our decisions about our own lives which is so fascinating right it's so

fascinating because cancer is such a it's so loaded in your head and everything, even though you might have data that would suggest that in order to take a really radical approach, you might be left with a number of lifelong consequences. I think most people's instinct is so emotionally driven just to get that gone, get that gone. But I found so many aspects of the conversations you were having with people so thought-provoking, whether it be from researchers who say sometimes that screening might highlight someone

who could have actually been living alongside cancer for a long time and not even needed to go through that path, to people who've had chemotherapy and other treatments that they didn't necessarily need to have because it didn't actually affect the outcome of their particular prognosis at all. In fact, it affects a really tiny amount of people in a positive way, which is extraordinary.

But also you're so brave when you're talking to the people that are going through cancer where it's got more to the palliative stage. And you ask them really brave questions. And I think that's really brilliant. I've noticed that across the board with what you do. You're really good at being quite unflinching when you're talking about topics. And you're unflinching with talking about your own diagnosis too. And there's a bit in it where you talk about being a fork in the road.

too and there's a bit in it where you talk about being a fork in the road a matter of if a few cancer cells are found in the wrong place you go one way and if it if you get rid of it or you go another do you feel since then that you're living in the path of the person where it worked out well and there's like another Hannah Fry out somewhere who had a different diagnosis like different oh yeah oh yeah it's crazy it's it's it's just so much luck involved in all of this yeah it's just a roll of the dice you know like there was one thing actually because mine was caught on a smear test but actually I had not gone to that smear test appointment for a number of months so the letter had originally come through in I think February and I didn't end up going until November and it was you know I don't know how it is in in your

house right but like when I got the smear test letter it wasn't like right emergency stations everybody drop everything right it was just like I'll pop it on the list you know yeah and so actually I had a lot of guilt for a long time time because I couldn't help but in my mind play over that idea of like, what if I'd gone when I'd got the letter? You know, when I got the letter first, why didn't I go? Because if I'd gone then, then maybe it wouldn't have turned into cancer yet. Maybe I wouldn't have had to have all the treatment I had.

Maybe I wouldn't have had the long-term repercussions of it and so on and so on. But actually I ended up having a conversation with Margaret McCartney, a doctor. She's in the film. She's the one who's talking about screening. This one from the Scottish lady? The Scottish, yeah.

She's incredible, this woman. And she just said something that immediately just set me free of all of this guilt. And she said, okay, sure sure you could have gone in February but what if in February actually they hadn't found anything what if what if everything had happened between February and November and you'd gone and had a clear test and then they would put you on the three year right you would have been back in three years and then you definitely would have died and I think that's it it's like with all of this stuff I do think as a society we have this sort of

this idea that it's somehow women's fault right or somehow you have some ownership of this or you know your cancer is like you know Jade Goody when Jade Goody died there's a lot of this conversation about it but you know it's just not it's just dumb luck all of it it's dumb luck to pick it up in the first place it's dumb luck to be to be you know in a good enough position that they could remove it there is nothing like there's that phrase right there but by the grace of god go i and it's just all of it is just dumb luck it's just just so um it's so hard to get your head around but i find that quite freeing and when she said that about if you'd gone in february it could have been all clear and then did you get a sort of

shiver go through your whole body of like oh yeah that could have been yeah totally totally but she said that she you know she gives talks at conferences and she said that she once had a guy come up to her um whose wife had died from cervical cancer and had left them um with a very young son and he was in floods of tears and he was like you've just you know all of this time i've been angry with her i've been angry with her and it's just i was wrong like it's just not it's just not but i think this is you know of all of the things of i do feel like very acutely the sort of fragility of life and i think that what happens is because we very reasonably can expect to live until our 70s or 80s now you know it's really only been a couple of generations where death

has not been a common part of life yeah and. And I think that actually we get to walk around for a lot of our lives, sort of pretending that we're immortal. A hundred percent. I agree with that. Yes. And you know, cancer is really, there are very few things left

which can get anyone at any time, whoever they are. You know, the vast majority of diseases and illnesses that certainly that are common, we've kind of like got on top of them. Cancer's really the last one. And so I do kind of think that because we're sort of so convinced ourselves

that we're immortal, that anything that shakes us from that path, we are, as you say, get rid of it, get it out of me. I don't want to be anywhere near it. And kind of approach it with fear and i do think that actually i'm saying all of this stuff about the fragility of life as though it's a really negative thing but actually i do find the whole idea very freeing yeah and it's also kind of reassuring to remember that because in previous generations they've had to deal with all manner of things happening and all sorts of instability

generations they've had to deal with all manner of things happening and all sorts of instability and actually i heard um i was researching this uh potential um podcast guest actually she's a death doula so her job is to support people when they're going through the process of dying and she was the beginning of this conversation i saw her was all about that about how we sort of treat death like oh well if I just avoid this that and the other I can keep going indefinitely in that direction and then you sort of not really um as you say we've kind of allowed ourselves to think that death is something you can kind of avoid as long as you don't tread on the cracks kind of thing and and also with cancer it's actually as well not always something that is the death sentence. There's also lots of ways people can live alongside it and manage things.

Did you have good support with the emotional side of what you experienced? Yeah, I did. I had this amazing therapist. Oh my gosh, she was so incredible. I loved her so much. The only thing is, after about 12 weeks or something, I found out she lives on my road no way oh god that's crazy and then I tried and I just couldn't keep I couldn't keep

it was too much like you like on the zoom to her like solving all that and then you just bump into her in the park with their dog and be like oh god oh god but I loved her so much so literally any time the therapist the word therapist comes up I'm like you have to go to her right so like I've said about five people given a good business but you had to withdraw from the relationship yeah because sometimes with therapists you're not really supposed to acknowledge each other I know but then it was just weird it's like I mean she knows she knows where all the bodies are buried yeah exactly oh she does well I'm glad you had that support because I think the emotional fallout of all of that must have been huge. And I did wonder as well, because you went towards, you know, reading all the books, was it reassuring to know that colleagues and other people in the same field as you had gone before you to do the research, to look through the data, to analyse the options?

to do the research, to look through the data, to analyse the options. Yeah, but I mean, no one knows what they're doing. I mean, no one knows what they're doing. I mean, don't get me wrong. I think like science is the closest that we come to knowing what we're doing. But I mean, it's still, I think it's the uncertainty. I think that you instinctively in that moment,

you just want an answer you just want tell me what the answer is um tell me what to do tell me everything that's gonna is gonna be okay and and so that's what I found that I was looking for when I was looking at the statistics it was like giving the answer giving the answer what's gonna happen to me where do I fit on this curve and you know the answer just isn't there like there isn't you don't know there's no way to know um and i think that actually accepting some of that uncertainty was very difficult so difficult that's probably like the last thing you want to do is accept an unknown and that's what sometimes when you're talking to the two people who are different

approaches to their coping with the you know know, when the options were radically reduced. And you had that one chap who decided, OK, I'm going to stop all treatment and I'm going to go cycling with my little boy and we're going to do these things together. And then the other lady who was like, no, I'm going to do everything I can if it just gives me a little bit more time. And that was really I did find a lot of I'm sure everybody who watches will be just thinking, what would I do? What's the value you place on time what's the value you place on time when i'm feeling well versus time when i'm longer time but not feeling very well yeah and it's so bespoke all those things everybody's got their own take on that totally and that's it i think there isn't a right answer there isn't a right answer because it it has to be that the person going through this is totally front and centre of that decision and works out what's right for them.

And Rob, actually, the guy who decided to decline further treatment, I mean, honestly, I think it was such a profound experience meeting him. I think it was genuinely, like, the sort of dignity and strength of character that he had to say, I accept that I'm going to die. Obviously, I don't want to, but I want every day to mean something. Yeah. And I don't want to spend it in a hospital. It was just, honestly, such a powerful encounter.

Very powerful. And so in the documentary where you say, this is a life-changing experience like now this is profound you know this is going to change the rest of my life so what's where do you find your relationship with that experience now how do you feel about it now so there was um at the time right when i got my diagnosis i have this cousin irish cousin and i was on the phone turn she says oh one day I hope you'll see the gift of it right you don't need cancer to know that you love your family and your friends and like being alive do you I mean but it's just like don't say you know just don't say just never say

that to someone who's just got cancer but the thing is is that now i am out on the other side of it i actually kind of do see what she means like i'll be honest with you if you said there's a big button right here and if you if you press it then you can undo all of it you can go back in time and never have had it i don't think i would press it which is i know that that's a massive statement and i'm also aware that I'm saying this from the fortunate position that actually my long-term conditions that I've left with are manageable I have you know I've been cancer free for two years and so I have like there's a lot of luck involved in me being able to say that at all but the thing is is that I look at videos now of myself the stuff that I was filming the stuff I was doing before I had cancer. And I

just look so much smaller. Like I don't mean smaller physically. I just mean like my whole character was just, I think, constrained by what I wanted the world to think of me or what I wanted to be for other people or, you know, the worries and concerns that I had about maybe I wasn't good enough this, maybe I should act more like this, maybe I should be more like this, you know, just not just on camera, but in everything, in every encounter I had, I was just sort of trying to walk this tightrope that I think lots of women find themselves on, right? Don't be too bossy, don't be too meek, don't be too this, don't be too that. and I think that actually what's happened is all of that has just gone it's gone and now I'm like look I only have one way of being and if this isn't enough then go look somewhere else because I don't have anything else for you and it's so freeing I

can't describe it to you that sounds incredible yeah that sounds like everything i'm striving for actually i wouldn't recommend it as a way to get there maybe just have a bit more do you want a number of a therapist yeah only if she's local to here maybe on this road um well i think that's brilliant and i've also noticed that you've got so much playfulness around what you do. And I wonder, in your family life, were academics and being funny with it always quite prized? Those two things that were always related. What, as a kid? Yeah.

No. No. Neither. Neither? Oh, no. Well, well done, uniting them and living them. No, no, neither. But I don't know, neither. Neither? Oh, no. Well, well done, uniting them and living them. No, no, neither. But I don't know, maybe...

OK, so my dad, he works in a factory. He made hydraulic lifts for trucks, right? My mum didn't work. So we're from, like, a very working-class family. I think everyone assumes I'm really posh, and I'm not. And so, you know, me and my sister is the first of our family to go to university. There was no expectations on us at all to be anything. Did all of you go to uni?

We did, yeah. But my mum was really, she just was very insistent about education. And I think, I've thought about this quite a lot because she was insistent about education but without any expectations that we'd be anything, right? Yeah. And I think it was just because she's Catholic and life should should be suffering it's the summer holidays here's some math text for

you quite literally yeah exactly um but I think that actually in a lot of ways maybe because I didn't have a really you know I didn't go to a posh school I don't know any latin like I didn't freaking learn all the ancient greek words for i don't know you know when you go into like places with posh people and they're like no icarus blah and it's like i don't know i genuinely don't know no no optional heart lessons none of that no and so i think that maybe in part because um i just don't get a lot of big gaps in my education um i think it just means maybe inevitably that i just find it find a lot of amusement in it you know that maybe i wouldn't if if i'd been a bit more institutionalized but that's good though i think have you can have fun

in the topic especially because science can have an image of being quite dry and maths. But if you're having fun and being playful, it actually breaks the seal for so many people. Is it where you go into presenting through doing like a uni stand-up thing? That's true. That's crazy. What was your stand-up material?

That's actually my anxiety dream. If I'm watching a comic, I feel like I have to have a joke prepared into my in my head in case i accidentally quantum leap into their body and have to finish the set so yeah yeah i mean well done for doing this i think it's i still i sort of think that actually when you watch a lot of comics I've really thought this about watching panel shows when you watch them really carefully and overanalyse them

as I tend to then what a lot of people are saying on there is no funnier than what everyone comes up with in the pub a group of friends who are just having a laugh with each other I think a lot of it is that quality but the difference is that it's people who are who have worked out how to get themselves in that

state of mind in that really stressful environment yes it's so true actually and confidence of it and also I think if you've if you know someone's a comedian you're kind of open to the kind of they're probably going to make me laugh yeah and some people are just quite funny and how they deliver things but also I think humor is really disarming and lovely and it can be really charming and I think that like for me it can break open lots of things so I think it's a great sort of intellectual lubricant really totally agree but I also think actually specifically with science I think the thing that I worked out a little while ago is that when you make a big science show, you're not selling facts or information or knowledge. This is what Brian Cox has worked out so perfectly, is that he's selling an experience. When you watch a Brian Cox show, what you're doing is you're having the feeling of your brain being expanded.

Yes. Just for that period of time. Yeah. And then you go along with him. It's just at the very edge of what you can imagine. Yeah. What your brain can handle. And then right at the end of it, it's like, okay, what did he talk about?

It's like, no idea. No idea. You know what I mean? All of it's gone. Immediately it's gone immediately it's gone but during that hour you feel as though you are exploring the cosmos with the limits of what human minds can do and i think the thing is is that space you've got kind of an advantage with space right because yeah everybody has looked up and wondered what's out there it's a democratic yeah we all go there

and you cannot do that with maths believe me right because even though it's part of everybody's every day all the time but it's not an enjoyable part of people's every day i mean look look i mean frankly me too um but i think that you can you just generally can't do that with something that was a subject at school and so i think then if you need to turn it into an experience then i think that humor is really the the very first place you can start it seems so obvious to me because it's like let's go and look at the the totally bonkers things that people are doing you know I don't know I was reading this thing this morning about someone trying to trick oysters into thinking that the tide was a different

time right like okay coming up with the experience without that you know I mean how ridiculous the idea that you've got like people sitting around working out how to trick an oyster I just I think there's just something so lovely about that um but I think that that's that the way that you have to do it is like take people in on board them with the the ridiculousness of it and that's I think how you turn it into what feels like an experience well firstly I think you completely that's, I think, how you turn it into what feels like an experience. Well, firstly, I think you completely do that too. I think when I'm watching your shows

or I've seen you on stage doing things, my brain has that thing of feeling bigger. I think, secondly, all my favourite educators, people on TV, I think the people I enjoy watching, they always have a generosity about the information they're trying to impart that is never superior.

It's always going, come on this journey with me, come on this ride, sit next to me, isn't this incredible? And that's infectious. And thirdly, at the end of your TED Talk, that kind of was a really pivotal thing for you where you did a TED Talk about the maths of dating. The sentence you end on, which I think is a brilliant sentence,

is very revealing about you, I think, where you said, now that I've talked you through the maths of love, I hope that you have a love for maths. And I'm like, there she is. I loved it. It works. It's so neat.

But also it's like you're going, look, I've done all of this for you in a very populist way. Just so a little part of you might come a little bit towards me. Let me have three words at the end. Thank you. I just thought that's lovely.

If we can bring it back to your daughters. So do you ever apply any of your sort of mathematical data analysis to how they are at all when they're at home because i do think it's quite a fascinating age when they're small and how people learn it must be quite fascinating for you to see the the sponge in action yeah oh yeah definitely definitely and then yeah i mean i think if you were like a neuroscientist having your own children oh man it'd be amazing, wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like an experiment. There are some things that I do with them. I use a little bit of game theory to make them behave sometimes. Okay, tell me more. So the thing is that you can't just say to a kid, it's like, oh, if you don't stop jumping up and down the sofa, then I'm going to cancel the holiday, right? Because then they know you're not going to do that.

So you have to make what's known in game theory as a credible threat. Yes. And essentially you have to pick something that you know that they know that you will carry out. So for example, if you don't stop jumping up and down the sofa, then tomorrow we're going to go to the art gallery and I'm going to make you come around the art gallery that you will carry out so for example if you don't stop jumping up and down the sofa then um on tomorrow we're going to go to the art gallery i'm going to make you come around the art gallery

with me all day and as long as they know that you love going to the art gallery and they really hate it then it's credible yeah um i mean that's kind of like level one but i do think that thing of character has to be a threat that is realistic because sometimes you'll say something like if you're doing that i'm not going to take you to that party and then the party might be like in a week's time and of course you're going to take me to that party of course you are exactly but the best of all is um is where you create something called a precondition so essentially the act of you saying the threat means that the threat has to be true um and essentially what you do is if you've got two children useful then you can say right the next one of you to jump on the sofa the other one gets to pick what we watch on tv for the rest

of the week oh yeah and then they're going to police each other right you know that you know that guaranteed yes and so i mean basically they're putty in your hands and thus i have the best behaved children in all of the world and they never argue. They never do anything naughty ever. That is so good. Yeah, they are. Well done, you cracked it.

If only I'd heard this 19 years ago. It just doesn't seem to ever quite work out with mine. I think I need to try hard. I think I'm a pushover. I literally stood at the doorstep this morning as I waved my eldest off to school, complaining about how his slightly younger brother had managed to negotiate a day off school.

And I literally stood on the doorstep at like 7.30 in the morning saying to Sonny, why am I so weak? I didn't mean to be so weak as i waved him goodbye i just thought i'd have a little bit more backbone yeah it's really tiring though being cross and then like carrying out the consequence i know especially if it has a negative effect on you like you're not going to be able to do xyz what i'm trying to do now is operate i saw like one of those little like pitched things on like Facebook or something,

where it's saying rather than a kind of, if you do that, then you don't mean bad. You say, if you want to be able to continue doing such and such, you have to do that. Or if you agree to stop jumping on the sofa, then you can choose another cartoon if you like. So make it like positive. Yeah. It's all like a positive. Yeah.

It's all just stuff. I know. I think if you watched in like real time, like if you could like do a sort of time lapse of my parenting, it's just me going round and round in circles. I know. But the thing is,

I think that there's so many different things, right? There's so many different things that work, but they don't work reliably, consistently every single time, right? No. So, you know, the jumping on the sofa is is like okay uh there's some stuff where it says okay you clearly have a desire to jump hey guys should we go to the trampoline park right you know okay sure sometimes that's gonna work and then but then also like you know the distraction of like who wants to go and make

cakes you know whatever right or like if you do this i will give you this i mean all of those things at some time or another will work and at some time or another will not work because they are just people and sometimes you feel like you've given birth to like a project or something and it's not that they're just little people have you ever tried pretend crying me pretend crying yeah i've done that tactical cry yeah shit a tactical cry maybe yours are a bit young it works better on my older ones no but i tell you what i did do that was actually a complete complete stroke of genius by me um was when my eldest was about two i told her that when she tells a lie a light shines out of her eyes that only her mum and dad can see and so what she would do is terrifying and brilliant she would come in

and um she would when she was lying she'd come into the room with her arm over her face and then and even now and actually okay so i mean it's maybe a little bit cruel um but the thing is is that i have a really good relationship with her and even now she's six now um when something happens and she wants to, you know, she wants me to really believe her, she'll say, look in my eyes. And then I know that, like, if she's saying that to me, I just know it's going to be true. But it means that we have, like, this real kind of relationship of trust. She trusts. Based on a lie.

Based on a lie. Exactly. It's fine. It's definitely fine. life that's brilliant um well i'm i'm gonna um leave you very soon because i feel like i've explored so much but i did say to producer claire just before he started recording when i was signing up so i was like i have to be careful because I think I could talk to you for the whole time just on something really niche I could have gone very deep on any number of things because I find so much

of what you explore really speaks my language I get very excited about it but I want to go back just finally might be a bit of a big question really but you said you feel

like something in you has shifted and you've you've got this new fearlessness and you're bigger in yourself so I wondered how that's affected what you want to do next really oh gosh I mean there's such a broad horizon I think I think though that it's um I to be honest I've never really had any big ambitions. I know that that sounds... I just like doing stuff that is good.

That's it. That's all it is. So I think as well as regret minimisation, I am what I think is sometimes called being micro-ambitious. Okay. So as in, I don't have this grand plan. I don't have a big, like like and then i want to do this there's no sort of five-year goals it's just about seizing opportunities as they arrive and making the

absolute most that i possibly can out of every single thing that i have the chance to do and that i think is really it i think that's the secret to a happy life if i'm honest yeah i think that's the way to do it yeah I think minimizing regret eradicating it if you can and seizing enthusiasm where you find yourself is is it yeah and as much play as possible yeah play is I know I saw that in your documentary actually where you're saying I want to have a life full of play me too that's perfect that and chopping up oranges with your kids chopping up oranges actually I'm allergic to oranges

you're not that's funny it could be any other fruit look it's just it's a metaphor it's a metaphor come on

what a lovely woman Hannah Fry is i really enjoyed her company and if i'm completely honest she's a very good example of when i book a guest with a slight ulterior motive of them becoming my friend so hannah if you're listening to, I hope I didn't come across too strong. I just always had a feeling we'd get along. So, yeah, it was a pleasure. And, yeah, I loved our chat. And actually, I really love the idea of regret minimisation. I think maybe my brain works that way too.

I just didn't, like, title it that way. But I do think you have to trust in who you were at the moment you made decisions I think dealing with regret long term is a very tricky emotion because it's a very difficult one to resolve so you've got to trust yourself that how you felt in the moment you would choose the same make the same choices and make the same decisions as if you were you know happening again now I think you have to trust that otherwise you'd go go loopy-loo, wouldn't you? And I've realised while I'm sat here talking to you, so I'm in my house and then outside the window is my garden and beyond it there's trees and then there's a little road

and then there's a park. And I can hear my children shouting in the park as I'm talking to you. I think, have you ever had, when I came back from holiday a couple of years back, we were the noisiest family where we were staying. I got all my kids hearing tested. I was like, maybe they're just not a bit hard of hearing and that's why they're so loud. They were all fine with their hearing. They're just noisy.

Noisier than your average. And the other exciting thing I've got happening, I realised, is my album is out really soon. My album is out really soon my album is out two weeks this Friday so that's June the 2nd I can't wait it's like the longest running thing but I'm so proud of this record and I really love it and it feels very personal but also very big and bold and shiny and I just oh it's just gonna be so lovely I can't wait to see it I still haven't seen a finished version we've done it in cassette and in vinyl and cd and I can't wait to see the artwork I'm so happy to do vinyl when I was with Universal Records we never did vinyl and now since I've done

Wanderlust and Familia and Song Diaries and Songs in the Kitchen Disco and this one Hannah I've made sure they're all in vinyl it's gorgeous plus you get to do fun ones where you make them a different color and that kind of thing yeah really lovely i can't wait for you to hear it and actually it's good timing because the song is the songs on the album suit the sunshine i feel like they're all about spring and summer so yeah it's good timing that the blossom is out and the sun's shining and it's all feeling really green and lush everywhere it's a lot easier isn't it to get out of bed in the morning and it's all feeling really green and lush everywhere it's a lot easier isn't it to get out of bed in the morning and uh yeah i think that's the main stuff going on oh well i have got a nice thing next weekend i'm going to do a festival in mexico that'd be cool

guadalajara can't wait for that either so yeah it's all systems go and i'm feeling yeah in a good spot with it all because I'm feeling quite energised. So let's see if I'm in the same mood next week. It's so easy to take a back step with the energy levels. Anyway, in the meantime, have a lovely week. Thank you very much for finding me and my guest again here. Thank you to my producer, Claire Jones, to Richard Jones, no relation, for editing the podcast, for Ella May for doing her beautiful artwork for Hannah Fry for her time and her conversation with me but obviously most of

all for you you lent me your ears and I appreciate it all right see you soon lots of love Thank you. you