Spinning Plates with Sophie Ellis-Bextor - Episode 97: Gemma Bird

Episode Date: June 5, 2023

Gemma Bird @moneymumofficial is a hard working mum of two from Essex who after years of working multiple jobs at the same time, managed to pay off her mortgage, and is now a constant source of money-saving tips and ideas on instagram, and a regular on Lorraine's Saver Squad. She's a fast-talking, determined and positive person, who is also very open about her struggles with anxiety and depression, and I really valued her honesty when we met.I went to visit Gemma at her home in Essex earlier this year, and she told me how her mum had set her on the saving road from a very young age, often making £20 last the whole of half term by finding free things for the family to do.Gemma published her first book 'Money Mum Official: Save Yourself Happy' last year, and she shared with me her ideas of how issues around money and debt could be taught at school - even as young as primary age. Gemma and her husband Adam have two children, Brody and Bronte, who they adore. We talked about the pressures we feel as parents and how to say no to them sometimes. It transpired we were both being pressured into buying the overpriced fashionable drink 'Prime' at the time of our chat!But on a serious note, for anyone who would like to talk to someone about money problems or getting into debt, Gemma recommends 'Step Change' stepchange.org and the National Debt Helpline' nationaldebtline.orgSpinning Plates is presented by Sophie Ellis-Bextor, produced by Claire Jones and post-production by Richard Jones Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sophia Lispector and welcome to Spinning Plates, the podcast where I speak to busy working women who also happen to be mothers about how they make it work. I'm a singer and I've released seven albums in between having my five sons aged 16 months to 16 years, so I spin a few plates myself. Being a mother can be the most amazing thing. It can also be hard to find time for yourself and your own ambitions. I want to be a bit nosy and see how other people balance everything. Welcome to Spinning Plates. Happy album release day to me. Happy album release day to me my seventh album which is called hannah finally got released today lovely wasn't that oh yeah i am speaking to you from friday the 2nd of june and finally my seventh album is out in the world um i say finally because i like i've never i've never

been a super speedy person with album turnarounds, but even for me, this is pretty spectacular. Started writing it January 2020. Should have been so straightforward, but it wasn't. But it ended up being a different album because of what was going on in the world, and I'm grateful for having made it. It's been lovely, and I'm just really excited to put it out there finally and have all these new songs to play with. And yeah, I'm feeling pretty good.

I'm feeling a little bit, not frazzled, that's the wrong word, I actually feel quite chilled today, but I do feel a bit like, ooh, because the last little while has been so busy and I hate it when people say they're busy. I find it quite annoying. Normally if I'm feeling busy, I don't say I'm busy, I say I'm spread a bit thin at the moment because basically you know sometimes when I'm doing a lot I just feel like I can't quite keep up with myself and I make silly mistakes but I have to say it has

been quite hectic um it's just quite hard to kind of take in each individual moment sometimes you know this time two weeks ago I was flying to Mexico then I came back then I did a lovely live recording on my mum's podcast then I went and did a gig in France then I went and did a gig in London then I went to visit Richard's parents in the Ashdown Forest took all the kids it's very nice actually kids played a lot then we took them on a boat then we had to come back because sadly we went to a funeral then we went back on the boat a couple of days on the boat then I went up to Manchester last night came back today going to the circus tonight that'd be fun tomorrow going to Dublin back tomorrow night Sunday brunch on Sunday morning then Mighty Hoopla on Sunday evening Monday kids all back at school

breathe I'm not showing off I'm just busy but like yeah feeling a bit bamboozled but it's all good this is where I'm at. And I always say it would be horrible to release an album and have an empty diary. So this is definitely not a complaint. This is not a complaint. Did I start the podcast like this last week? I feel like I did. Maybe I do need to take a beat. Anywho. Yes, what did I want to talk to you about? So I mentioned I went to a funeral and I don't know about you but sometimes with a funeral I'm really I was really looking forward to going to this funeral because I knew it would give me the space and the time to really process and think about

who has recently died which very sadly is Dan from the feelings mum Kath now if you've been listening to my podcast for a little while, you might remember the conversation I had with Kath. So it's Kath Gillespie Sells. I think it was way back in the first series. It might have been second. Out of all 100 and whatever conversations I've had, I would put the conversation I had with Kath up there at the very top.

It was just incredible. If you haven't listened to it, sometimes people will say to me, oh, I haven't heard a new podcast. Which one do you recommend? And I always say Kath's. Her story was remarkable. She was a remarkable woman. And she basically left the planet better than she found it. And I just think as a legacy, what an incredible thing. Also also so loved there was so much love in the room when we went to celebrate her life and her three sons spoke really well and yeah just really moving um Kath was found herself by the age of the late 20s um disabled after a freak occurrence really she got a splinter at work when she was a nurse um and she from the splinter she got sepsis which led to complications which

led to an immuno sort of disorder that meant that she would have these flare-ups so sometimes be in a wheelchair sometimes be on crutches a lot of pain throughout her life. She also, after having her first two sons, realised that being straight wasn't for her. And, excuse me, she started relationships with women. And the way she speaks about that in the conversation we had is exceptional, just like it was like an awakening. She then, through getting herself to pride marches, an awakening. She then, through getting herself to Pride marches, decided that she wanted to campaign to make it easier for disabled members of the LGBTQ plus community to get access to Pride. Remember, this is in the 80s when Pride's had a real political edge and were really important and significant people to get to. Not saying they're not now, but the 80s was really a time

where Pride had an agenda. And so she set up a charity called regard and through that got an mbe so a really amazing life there's more to it than that listen to the podcast if you get a chance it's an amazing tribute to her life that we have that recording very special and yeah so it's been yeah a week of lots of different emotions. It was lovely to then go on the boat with the babies. We took the little three on a boat, Richard and I. Like had a little poodle up and down the Thames for a couple of days of half term. And it's so still.

You just sit on the water. You see little ducks. You can look at all people's houses and their gardens. It's good if you're nosy like me. And it was just very very very chilled and a little time to be a bit reflexive before then getting back on the wagon we're talking about the album all that so you know lots of different things going on and actually come to think of it that's probably why I've said I feel a little bit but little bit bamboozled because I think sometimes if your

emotions are kind of being pulled in different directions then that can be the way that you feel at the end of it but overall I'm feeling really positive and I do think if you ever go to the funeral of someone who sort of lived life really well and leaves a lot of love behind then it's very inspiring and makes me want to be a bit braver because of her and yes where are we at for today so today's guest is a really lovely woman called Gemma Bird who I think I first discovered through one of those suggested posts on Instagram actually and I found myself watching something that she was talking about and I really found her compelling. She's Essex born and bred, mother of two. And she has brilliant money saving tips.

And she speaks from the heart. She paid off her mortgage. She is very keen for people to feel they've got some agency over their cash. And wants to try and demystify feeling competent with your money and with your funds so she she's a regular on Lorraine's saver squad she's got a book out that's called money mum official save yourself happy she's really keen to arm people with the knowledge of how to make the pennies sort themselves out so that the pounds take care of themselves so I actually went to meet her I think it was January now in Essex in a lovely house and we just had a really good conversation she was very open as well about

her struggles with anxiety and depression and just all or not a very open person but very warm we got on immediately i met her husband adam he made me and and our producer claire um hot cross buns just all good stuff and she's got some tips for you if you find money intimidating if you feel like you're in a bit of a pickle there are um websites in the caption on the podcast and also in the blurb on insta so that you can find places to get some help um and yeah sorry i've waffled on for quite a long time uh now over to jemma and i uh this is while we're drinking tea and pre hot cross buns they came at the end all right see you on the other side I'm so happy to meet you Gemma it's so funny because

when I reached out to you on Instagram I DM'd you after I was looking at your brilliant posts on Instagram and I was like I'm just going to do it I'm going to jump in

and I was so happy and also really surprised when I got this amazing enthusiastic voice note I feel like we've do it. I'm going to jump in. And I was so happy and also really surprised when I got this amazing, enthusiastic voice note back. I feel like we've met before. Yeah, I mean, I do love a voice note. Where I'm dyslexic, I voice note everybody. And I felt like I'd won the lottery when Sophie Ellis-Bexter just appeared in my DMs.

I'm not going to lie. So I was really excited. I was like, what is happening today? You know, the voice note thing is interesting because it actually makes you feel like you sort of fast track through a few stages of the getting to know you bit yeah because you kind of go back and forth and it's like when you've got a conversation going you feel like you know someone better definitely I like a voice note I think it's more personal as well like you get to know that person's

character and exactly they're more like in more their thoughts and what they like and what they're about I think it's more colorful as well isn't it you can hear the inflection in someone's voice and their happiness and um what's up with you at the moment where do i find you at the you know today what you're doing at the moment so you can find me on instagram which is money mum official i'm also on tiktok as well although i don't know what the hell i'm doing on that i just post the same stuff on that that i do on my instagram some more my instagram and I'm doing stuff at the moment on Lorraine, part of their Saver Squad, so I go on there quite regularly

and give sort of everyday tips for everybody, not just mums, even though I'm called Money Mum, it's just a catchy name. It's for everybody, including all walks of life. And did it surprise you how things have sort of snowballed with your tips yeah it has um it hasn't it hasn't because I'm sort of a go-getter in life like I came home one day after speaking to somebody that did social media and they were like oh you know I'm on social

media and I get to go to these events and I like that side of it I was like wow imagine that um and I thought well no one on social media is sharing sharing money tips or seeing the other side of it. I'm not wealthy. I can't keep up and be every single day putting on a Prada handbag every single day and going out and showing that and these fancy pictures. So I just thought, do you know what? I'm just going to do a page where I just share everyday tips. Like if I'm in Tesco's and there's Pampers that are cheaper or whatever

whatever it is I'm looking at I'm going to just share deals and money tips and things like I'll rent my driveway out to earn extra cash why pay extra for this and if I do want to design a bag I'm going to outlets and you know try and move away from it than just looking at influencers and celebrities because it could be that they're on amazing money and it's not it's not real everyday life it's nice to look and it's lovely to see it and watch it those lives because it's interesting of course it is but there's also I felt like there needs to be a realness to social media so I thought I'm just going to start it and see how it goes and I thought and another reason I started it I thought well it's free to start being money mom I thought I've got nothing to lose yeah I've only got my time to lose and I thought I'm just going to really

give it a go and obviously I'm really pleased I did because it's been amazing yeah yeah it has seemed to have resonated on so many levels and I think I mean does it surprise you how many people find sort of a fundamental approach to you know keeping an eye on their cash really difficult yes and no again because all my life my friends have sort of said to me like why aren't you coming out it's only a tenner it's only 20 quid when I've been saving they're like you've got savings why are you not coming out because I'm like because I'm saving up save for my first car or saving up to get on the property ladder or whatever that was and I always used to be like it's just a tenner gem it's just 20 quid and I just I've always felt like yeah but 10 pound after I go to work after tax national insurance that takes me an hour to earn that money for for example. So to me, it's always been, I've looked at other people, and I've always thought so many sort of friends that I've

known along the years haven't had the regards to that money. So no, I'm not particularly shocked, because I'm a real believer that the little things add up to the big things. Like people, you don't just make loads of money, it's through savings and investments, you know. So it's like saving up that little bit of money to maybe buy that thing that might turn into more money it's a lot of choices obviously at the minute there's a cost of living crisis so it's very different in the minute um but over the years when I've been younger I've definitely noticed that I was different to other people in that way and I suppose some of that is a bit of a slow burn thing because the things that you value I mean we're pretty much the same age um so we're both in our early 40s and the things that you value, I mean, we're pretty much the same age. So we're both in our early 40s.

And the things that you value now, the security now, that back 20 years ago, you know, where you're... Do you want to sneeze? Yeah, sorry. Just do it. I'm actually quite impressed you've sneezed because sometimes when I tell people I'm going to sneeze, I don't sneeze. Oh, well, I did think that.

I was like, if I don't now sneeze... I did think that I was like if I don't now sneeze um sneezing's fine we will edit out oh god I get like sneezing fit sorry right stop my husband's like that he only sneezes in threes really yeah weird sorry I was like oh no I'm gonna sneeze I better tell you don't worry about it it's fine um it's a bit of a slow burn thing what you're describing there because now that we're in our early 40s the happiness that you find from feeling secure in your you know where you're living what you're able to drive your options that you have through to your savings and how you spend that's not very important when you're like 21, is that you're not thinking about that.

Yeah. So in a way, it's quite an old head on young shoulders to be prioritising a future when most people at that age are only thinking about more hedonistic here and now. Yeah, I think I was always like that, maybe from more my mum as well. My mum always just sort of had family allowance and a little cleaning job and she bought all of our stuff out of that. And I always heard mum saying like,

no, we can't have that. We've got to save for that. So maybe that's where I've got it from as well. Whereas my dad wasn't really like that. It was always my mum that was like the one that was like really good with the money. And she'd make like 20 quid last all half term and things like that, you know,

because we'd be like loads and loads of free activities. And at the end of the week, we might have a McDonald's or something, you know? So I think growing up like that, you know, because we'd be like loads and loads of free activities. And at the end of the week, we might have a McDonald's or something, you know? Yeah. So I think growing up like that, I think that maybe made me realise that when I got to my mum's sort of age, like in my 40s, I wanted to be secure and not worrying like mum was. Because obviously when we were growing up, mum didn't have money. I always thought, I don't want to be like that when I'm older.

I remember sitting there when I was younger thinking, I want to be a millionaire. I want to buy a house. Like from a really, really young age, I don't want to be like that when I'm older. I remember sitting there when I was younger thinking, I want to be a millionaire. I want to buy a house. Like, from a really, really young age, I remember that. Just really having the security. And it was never really about, like, handbags and things for me. It was about more seeing the world and security, like a house, a home over my head, food on the table. I just wanted things like that and be able to, like,

go out and do things, like, days out were important to me. Like, if I wanted to go out and have a coffee, I could go out and have a coffee. It was never and have a coffee it was never really about things it was more security and I'm exactly like that now like yeah I like just going out with my kids for a walk but then it's nice that if I want to buy my coffee I can afford to do that whereas mum wouldn't have been able to do that you know it was always we had to take a flask and most of my life has been like that saving for now that you know I am mortgage free now so I do have that flexibility so making those

choices I'm pleased I did make them and I'm not saying I'm right um but I don't really feel like I did miss out in my 20s because I wasn't I'm not into alcohol which is great because obviously that's really expensive so when I went out I would literally drive and have like a soda and lime because it was the cheapest so I feel like I always went out but like I swapped clothes with friends and like social media wasn't there when we were growing up, you know. So I'd go out every week. And because I wasn't drinking, I'd go out for, like, what, 80p and then come home. So people are like, do you feel like you missed out?

I didn't have girls' holidays and things. But, again, it wasn't really something I wanted to do. Like, even now, like, I'd say, like, go for a spa day with you or I'd go to London and have some cocktails. But I wouldn't want to go and get, like, completely drunk and and in a club now and I didn't want to do that at 17 so I think it's the way I am as well as a person well actually something you've said that it really sort of um resonates with me in terms of how I think people are with with money because you were talking about how your association with it came from when you were little and you could see your mum and how she was approaching saving and it sounds like your mum

did an amazing job by the way of making that money last and you're not being aware of it in a negative you're still doing loads of things we had lovely time but that's incredible isn't it that she was like thinking right 20 pounds half term right I'm still gonna you know make sure we're having experiences and doing things um but I think and I I don't know if you'll agree with me, but I think you have an emotional attachment to money. I don't think it's just, you know, maths and getting bills paid. I think it's emotional. And I think your emotional attachment to money

and your association with love and probably other things like music. I just think there's a few fundamentals that we get we kind of have our map by the time we're about 10 do you know what I mean in terms of how you feel about it I think it's so emotional and I think it like I talk about in my book it's a it money is a mindset and I think it's the same with anything like you can say you want to do something but until you act on that emotion, you're not going to do it. Do you get what I mean? Like, you saying, I want to be a singer, I want to write a song.

Okay, have you written a song? Well, no. It's like, I want to save for something. Okay, well, how are you going to do it? And that's what I talk about. It's like putting those plans in action. And you can fail at that, and that's fine. Like, we had the conversation before this started.

I wanted to do singing and dance when I was younger, and I tried and tried and tried and tried and got knocked back. And I got a no and eventually walked away. But I still feel like I gave it my all and I tried there. And that's what I say to anyone. Like, if you're in debt, even if you're just paying off a pound a week and you're trying your absolute best, then you're doing amazing. Don't put pressure on yourself.

You're doing the best that you can possibly do. And I think that's the same with anything in life that you want to do. If you try and try and try and fail, then no one can ask any more of you, can they? No, they can't. And sometimes as well, you have to kind of step back a little bit and try and go back to your initial examples of how money was spoken about in your house, how budgeting was spoken about. How do you feel about with kids if you should be very open with them about earnings?

I mean, is that something you do with your kids like if they said how much is a you know a job or how much was our house or something like that I'm never quite sure the right way interesting I mean Brody's 10 and my daughter's four so obviously Bronte doesn't ask for that she just asks for everything when we go in the shop I want that can I have that they turn into consumers so little can I have that can I have that and then well I'll get the screaming tantrum and i'm like no because my friend even said the other day oh my god you've said no and you've stuck to it and i said because even if i gave her that lollipop two seconds later she's gonna want the dolly in the next shop there's no

switch off button she's four years old like if you came around here now straight away she'd probably she'd be talking to you and if you bought a suite she'd be like have you got any more do you i mean there's no filter at four years old is there so at that age but brody um my 10 year old he does ask me the odd thing like only recently like we're talking about that prime drink for example he's like yes i want prime and i'm like if you think i'm paying 20 pound for a bottle of prime he's like but why but why won't you because i'm like it's value for money i'm like because they're like two quid or whatever and people are profiteering off of them and i'm just like out of principle i'm like no you's value for money. I'm like, because they're like two quid or whatever and people are profiteering off of them. And I'm just like, out of principle, I'm like, no,

you're not having that for 20 quid. So he does ask me about things like that. And I have tried to talk to him about money. Like there's a really good example I can give you, not really on house prices and things, but I will talk to him about them when he's older. But we went to the park when he was about eight. And I remember he said to me, can I have an ice cream?

And I said, yeah, sure, no problem, ice cream. the next day he asked me for another one and yes I could afford to buy him another one I'm not gonna lie like my mum physically couldn't I could but I still want to teach him so I went no you had one yesterday and he went oh it's not a lot of money and I went sorry he went it's not a lot of money it's only two pounds that's what he said to me and I went how much is a lot of money then Brodie he went 10 pound but that's what he thought was a lot of money so I said okay then so if I buy you an ice cream every single day this week Monday to Friday Brodie that's 10 pound and he went oh and I went that is why I can't buy you one every single solitary day you can have one twice a week in school holidays I was thinking because I don't want you having one every single day it's not good for you and

no you're not having everything you want and he accepted that because I explained it to him. And I thought, wow, that really worked. Like, I didn't need to say a thousand pounds is a lot of money. Like, if you said to an adult, what's a lot of money? They might go 20 grand. But a 10-year-old's perceptive on that was 10 pounds is loads of money. And it is a lot of money still. Do you know what I mean?

It's still money. So I tried to sort of do that with him. And I kind of do that now. Like, even if he does want something really expensive, he wanted some Nike Air Max you know he's getting to 10 and he said I really want Nike Air Max so I said to him okay you can have them but you can have them towards your like you can have them as part of your Christmas present because the particular trainings you want to be like 90 pound and I would usually spend like maybe 40 pounds 30 pounds in a pair of trainers for him every day they're so expensive so So I said, do you really want that for your Christmas present?

And he said, yes, I really, really want that. So I thought, okay, you can have that. So I'm trying to sort of educate him that, yeah, like things like that aren't everyday things. You can't have Nike Air Maxes all the time. And I don't really feel if I was worth a billion pounds or one pound that I feel like I want to teach him how much things cost because when he's older, he can't go to his boss at the end of the month

and be like, oh, listen, mate, you know know I've spent all my money got a week to go can I have another couple of hundred quid like you see children do it and it's like the boss would be like absolutely not so I want to I want him to be able to know about money and manage money of course you know if I can I'll never let my kids struggle and I'd love to help them when they're older and part of me as a mum wants to buy them everything wants to get him all the different colours Air Max of course I do I love him he's my he's my baby but I just think well no because I'm probably going to turn him into a person maybe I don't love I want him to have I want him to be grounded and I want him to be thankful and excited and if you brought him something now he's 10 years old honestly Sophie he would be so excited to be like oh my god mummy's

mate come round and bought her this you know and that's what I love about him you know because he's so grateful and I want to I want to keep my kids grounded I think it's really important it is important and I think you have to again play a long game with that don't you and sometimes with the kids I've had exactly the same thing where I say if I do that for you it'll make you happier in the here and now but in the long term I'll be doing you a disservice yeah you know so know, so it's really tough that day because you are, you know, the bank of the parents and they don't really have any idea of really what it means or what you've had to do to earn that money.

And also, once you cross over into, well, yes, I could have afforded it, but there'll be a repercussion later on down the line that's quite tricky as well yeah definitely because i think brody will say things like well you can afford it because you've got a nice car and things like that and i'm like it's it's irrelevant brody what i can afford and what you can have is totally irrelevant so you know one time he came home the only thing he's ever asked me for really obscure obscure, he saw this young guy walking down the road with, like, a Gucci bum bag. And I thought they wear them over the shoulder.

And he went to me, can I have a Gucci bag? And I was like, I'm sorry, you're 10 years old. I think he was about nine at the time. I was like, absolutely not. He's like, you've got one. And I was like, yeah. I didn't have one until I was about 38. And I paid for it myself and I'm not

buying you a Gucci bag and I remember he was like oh something you know you get that and I thought oh my god he's turned into a teenager and I remember thinking back when I was a kid saying to my mum can I have these LA gear trainers and she was like absolutely not you can have the walrus ones I can't afford them they're exactly the same and I'm like they're not exactly the same mum I'm getting picked on in school this is my life's hell and my mum always says to me if I could have afforded to get you one pair I would and I think it's that line isn't it like I want him to have like the odd nice thing so he feels happy because I remember those I remember thinking I'm never gonna let my kid have bad trainers but yeah my mum's so mean making me have always trainers she's ruining my life so that's probably

why at Christmas I was like yeah you can have them I so get your point so it is really difficult because you do you do want to like get things for them because you love them but it's because you love them you have to sometimes say no too isn't it yeah you've got to be always picking the boundaries and on that note I was thinking because obviously there's not just you in this equation you have your husband so do you have to do you see you know you don't always have the same opinion on things do you I know that richard and i've done that where we feel differently about things and he'll say no don't just buy that for them they have that's that's more of a birthday present or a christmas present type things i guess you've got to kind of feel similarly about these things too yeah and i think having a discussion

with your partner about money is really important like so many women I speak to now say to me, oh, I don't know how much our bills are. I don't know what bank we're with. I don't know where the gas and electric comes from. I don't know this. I don't know that. So I think just having open and honest conversations with your partner is really important.

And yes, it's fine that one of you manages it. Like Adam actually does manage our gas and electric and everything, but I know where it is to go to it for spreadsheet because I'm working. So that works for us in our house. So it's fine if someone completely runs the show on that but i think it's important it's the same with the children so like yeah we'll have differences of agreements and i've been in the wrong you know i hold my hands up and sometimes i say things in front of the kids and he's always he's really logical i mean you've just met him you can see

how logically he's compared to me um he will say to me wait till the kids are in bed and then we'll discuss that and he's right and over the the years, now Brodie's got older, I've definitely done that. Because I think you forget when they're little, you can have the conversation. But Brodie's now at that age where he's like, oh, dad said you were wrong on that. Or mum said, and then they fright back on you.

And he's definitely at that age where he'll go and ask Adam, like, can I have prime, dad? And Adam will be like, no. And then he'll come and ask me. And I said to him, if you do really well on his maths at school, can get prime and I managed to find it for 10 pounds which is still an absolute rip-off and I've been totally conned but it was something he really wanted and he'd done really really well on his maths and Adam even said to me still don't think you should have bought him it because it's a waste of money but so we disagreed on that but Adam was like okay I understand why

you're doing it so it is difficult isn't it I think i just think relationships whether it's with your children and i don't think there's any right or wrong like what i'm doing is not right or wrong because it could be completely wrong for you like you might go well no actually we've bought our children crates of prime because we want to do that and there's nothing wrong with that like it doesn't mean that you i'm wrong and you're right or you're right and i'm wrong it's just it's just knowing i think it's important you and your partner are on the same page with things more than anything definitely um and I love the fact that we're bringing it to such a thing like prime just shows you that we're both in it they're the same we've got the same age kids together so for anyone listening doesn't know what we're talking about

how would you describe it prime is it's a drink that's like I think they call it a hydration aid which is also what a drink is just water me with some juice in it and it's promoted by a YouTuber

that lots of the kids watch and then they do it in these very select drops to supermarkets and then you can never get hold of it

so then it goes on things like eBay and places like that where people hoik the prices up it's like a £2.99 drink or something and then people go

it's in the newsagents for £20. It's property you're in. But I have just thought of a great money tip, Sophie. We could do a drink and all the kids could go mad over it. We could, couldn't we? Yeah, there you go. Or we could do a sort of knock-off,

like we call it like pro-more-pre-more. And our kids can promote it for us. Guess what our mums are doing? We'd be the coolest mums in the world then. They're like, oh my God, our mums are so cool cool i think it might be inherently flawed because it's us doing it yeah we're not ksi are we we'd be so boring yeah but what you were talking about when you're saying about talking to your other half you know if you're you know co-parenting your kids and you have that conversation about money but i also think that brings me to

just talking about money in general it's very strange I was listening to something where you've been interviewed and you were saying how when we talk to people we ask all sorts of personal questions and yet money is a complete taboo and it's so true I don't think I've ever had conversations with even my closest girlfriends where it comes down to what they earn or what I earn or any of that stuff. It's just not something there's much transparency over. But it could be so helpful and good for people if there's a bit more transparency, I think. Yeah, I think we're, as you said, we're told not to ask, not to ask, not to ask.

And I've always sort of been quite open and honest. Like, I'll say, like, oh, you know, what you're doing and what you're earning and things like that with, like friends I'm not saying you should tell the world do you see what I mean but yeah like it is true like it's the one thing that we are taught it's imprinted in us it's rude to ask that so therefore we don't ask it like you wouldn't walk in my kitchen now and then me say to you oh how much did you earn last year you'd straight away close up and be like I don't like her what's she doing yeah why is she asking me that? And because of that side of it, I feel like it makes people so frightened

to say whether they haven't got any money and not know what to do and who to speak to if they get in debt. They can't even confide in their friends and tell them they're in debt. Or there might be like a group WhatsApp chat and you could be in that, for example, and you're a successful lady, right?

And there could be 10 other people in that chat. It could just be a friend of a friend that's organising a night out. There could be somebody in that for example and you're a successful lady right and there could be 10 other people in that chat it could just be a friend of a friend that's organizing a night out there could be somebody in that chat that is really struggling at the minute but she thinks oh my god i know sophia lesbecks is in the chat i know that girl down the road's in the chat and she's got me i'm embarrassed to say i can't do this whereas youse guys would all be fine about it you know everyone always is they're like oh it's absolutely fine don't worry like come we'll get you a drink most people would say or yeah don't worry about that but we're told to not talk about it to such a degree that I feel it's almost damaging that we now don't talk about it to so much that's the one thing I feel COVID and the cost of living has done people are being more open like actually it's just

important to go for a coffee or actually I'm really struggling at the minute um you're gonna have to put a jumper on when you come around because I can't afford the heating I think if there is a positive to come out of it at least we are sort of all talking and all communicating and a lot of people are in the same boat um and feeling less worried to sort of say even to say to their wealthier friends who what maybe are not in that boat because their wealthy friends understand because it's all over the media and the news everything you put on everyone understands that there's a cost of living crisis at the minute but there's probably always has always been people in a cost of living crisis yeah but because it's not been I mean the cost of living crisis at the minute but there's probably always has always been people in a cost of living crisis yeah but because it's not been i mean the cost of living

crisis at the minute is obviously huge as in like petrol mortgages and everything gone up but there's always been people that have been really really struggling but because it's not been sort of spoken about like it is now i feel people have been worried to say definitely they're in debt and maybe that's caused them more pain and more anguish over that you You know, there's reports that people take their own lives over money, which is absolutely heartbreaking because it is just money. And things like that absolutely make me feel sick when I hear that. Well, there's a lot of shame associated with getting yourself in a real state, isn't there? And as you say, being unsure of how to reach out.

I imagine if you get to that extreme situation it's very isolating and and you know the very sort of fundamental thing of you say being able to even afford to just go and meet a friend to have a drink where you might possibly confess about those things that all these things close up so what are you going to do you're going to stay inside your own head stay inside your own space yeah do you sometimes get people coming to you now that you've become a public figure with talking to people about money saving do you have people come to you in this situation yeah pretty much every day there's people in my inbox um that say i'm really struggling but i also get a lot of messages saying i was really struggling and you shared a reel about talking about it and i have

i've spoken to my friend and or i've i've thank you for putting the links up about the national help deadline and step change and things like that and i've gone and spoken to them and i've got a plan in place and i'm going to be debt free in two years and i had a lovely message the other day a lady she was 10 grand's worth in debt and she said oh i've been following your little savings guide and i've been doing it you put it up about a year and a half ago and i'm now only eight grand's in debt and i was like that is absolutely amazing she goes i feel so buzzing I'm still in debt but I feel I've achieved so much I was like you have that's a huge amount of money to have paid off like well done like on everything else like that's absolutely amazing and I just think that's like the positive side we should be because

we're all going to earn different money we're all going to be all different walks of life there's always someone richer there's always someone worse off I always say that to everyone to try and not worry about what everybody else is doing because you're never going to keep up you're never going to keep up um we're all in different situations aren't we yeah so I just think yeah I think it's trying to get the confidence to just especially say to your nearest and dearest you know what I can't afford to do that I'm really sorry um and I do I do think that's starting to change especially this year which is is the positive to take out of it yeah we're all talking you know no I totally agree with you I think where once from people I've spoken to who've got themselves in a really well you know a very intense situation once I started speaking to

people everybody just swoops in and says oh my god why didn't you tell us sooner you know so it and from that moment on it that you've shared it and it starts to alleviate and you start to make a plan about getting yourself back into a good spot so you're right about talking to people so if we talk more about you what was going on in your life when you had your first baby when you had your son where were you what were you up to at that time um so when I got pregnant with Brodie I was working in mortgage collections arrears um for a bank um doing that was on a call center um interesting very interesting job um again to do with money I guess um people every day struggling um so it was mortgagery so I was doing that and then I got made redundant for the bank when I was pregnant so obviously really

really worried um and then my partner actually Adam lost his job at the time as well so yes there was two of us out of work I was pregnant so it was a really worrying time as you can imagine um for both of us to be out of work um Adam then sort of got another job it didn't kind of work out um and then so what I did was with my redundancy money which wasn't huge at all it's a few thousand pounds it wasn't enough to like last for a long time at all so I'd only been at the bank I think a year and a half two years maybe um and I was like the bottom grade you know like when you'd only been at the bank I think a year and a half two years maybe um and I was like the bottom grade you know like when you're first going to the bank so I wasn't on a higher

pay grade so it made it very difficult and one of my friends at the bank had been very redundant as well um and we set up a online business and we sort of sold underwear from homes on Amazon and eBay and I did that for about eight to ten years I never wrote loads of money off of it but we just kept afloat from it yeah um and then sort of from then had Bronte whilst we were doing this and Adam sort of used to pack all the stuff as well and we didn't have much at all we we didn't we didn't have our mortgage because I bought properties when I was younger and I cleared that but we still had all our bills to pay but I wasn't earning much more than sort of between 15 and 20,000 I think Adam was earning about 8,000 so it was literally yeah it was just covering the bills

and it was packed lunches everywhere and yeah but we still had like a nice time but it was like living like mum was um and it was like that really pretty much the whole of our time we've been together sort of always sort of having to say no and on the group whatsapp chats going I can't afford to do that or I have to go but there's a voucher code or I've only got a tenner tonight and it was just like that for years you know we'd always wanted to move but we couldn't um so if we had years and years and years of that and it was always when Brodie was little we just sort of went out to like I did lots of church groups and things like that because they were like just pay a donation um And I talk about that a lot.

Like I didn't do like the classes where you had to pay an upfront thing of like 150, 200 pounds. I just didn't have it, you know? There's so much that's actually really expensive. It is really expensive. It's lovely if you can do it. And my God, if I could turn back the time and do it more,

I'd 100% do it more. If you can afford to do them, of course you're going to do that. It's a lovely thing to do. But at the same time, I also had a great time at the church groups and like there was messy play and there was like little council run groups. And I just sort of did all them and then did like NCT

and did a thing where we all sort of went to each other's houses once a week for a coffee so it was just like hosting like you'd buy the cake and the coffee one week and then they would so and I did like lots of long walks and things like that and that was sort of all all I sort of did with the kids when they were young really there wasn't anything particularly lavish that we did. But still, when you said about being pregnant and then both of you losing your jobs, my jaw did drop a bit. That sounds incredibly stressful. Is that the first time you've been in a situation

where the rug's been pulled out from you like that? No, because before I had my son, my first husband left me. And so obviously I lost my home. I didn't, I wasn't really working. I got a job for seven grand a year. I was trying to sell the home I was heartbroken um felt like I lost everything around me he had the car in the divorce settlement and I had properties but they were in it was in 2007 when it was the property crash they were all in negative equity so I think it was horrific and I remember

thinking I'm never gonna get out of this mess like ever and I had lots of friends around me um but I was in such a bad dark place like unbelievable um so when that happened because I think and this is going to sound really cringe but I'm so in love with Adam and so happy with him I know it sounds really like oh my god so cringe but I actually am like he's like my best friend but I just I remember thinking well we've got each other like it'll be all right like so maybe because I'd had that happen and my parents had broken up just before that like so much bad had happened that I've not even sort of spoken about my Instagram that I wouldn't speak about in my private life that when that happened although

it was horrific I just did think well at least I'm having a baby you know I really want a baby and I've got to him and I was trying to sort of see the positive side of it obviously I was thinking oh my goodness me but I think as well where I have been good with my money I had had some savings and Adam had savings so we knew that we'd be all right just to cover the bills and we was just going to get by really and neither of us are into like mate like it wasn't like oh god we're not going to be able to go up West End every week because we won't really like that like yeah if we if we've got it lovely we go out and enjoy ourselves but if we haven't we're fine not to as well at the same time. Yeah, and I think, well, firstly, I don't think it's cringy at all

that you're happily married. I think that's really lovely. It's really nice to hear. And also, I think I've noticed that so many people who give advice in an area have really experienced, you know, the complete extremes of what it is they're giving advice on. So the fact that you've had that, you've lived that experience of having it all fall away and just feeling like you're in a really dark place and everything has just gone completely tilted.

You know, sometimes life just happens to us for all our planning, for all our thought about it. And you can't control what happens with other variables, like what other people do with their, to make decisions with, you know, what they're're doing so we we no one's immune from those things at all and it probably stands you in really good stead for the people that come to you and want to hear from you about how you've got yourself into a much happier spot now yeah definitely so did you always want to be a mum? Is that something you always thought? No, not in my 20s.

I was like, oh, I'm never going to have kids. Really? Yeah. I was like, I don't want kids. Like, oh, they're so annoying. Like, no way. I don't want to get pregnant. And the thought of giving birth, like, who would do that?

You must be mental. And then literally my first husband left me and I was 29 and I was like I want to get married no kids like that is when it hit me um and maybe that is because he left that I then thought it's been taken away from me and at 29 when you're approaching 30 you're not because now I'm 41 now I thought I was so old I thought everyone's taken everyone's got kids everyone's got their career sorted out I've literally not got my career sorted out I've got properties that negative equity I'm absolutely screwed you know I've got I've got nothing and then I think meeting

Adam I knew the minute I met him I wanted to marry him and have his babies like it was just instant like I think I must have told him probably on the second day which is probably why he did dump me after two weeks of meeting me but that's another story for another day yeah slightly stalked him I don't know whether I'd recommend that but you know put him in the end told you I'll go get it um literally so yeah it was I didn't want him no not at all and then I was so broody it was unbelievable it just hit me so I feel like that can happen can't it because I suppose lots I feel like that can happen, can't it? Because I suppose lots of women are like that. They're like, I don't want them, don't want them, don't want them.

Like they get like 36 or something and they're like, I want a baby. It's really weird, isn't it? But I think it was right for me. Some people want babies like at 18, 19. They just know, don't they? Yeah. And they want to be a young mum and that really suits them. And that's wonderful because, as you say,

you've got like a 19-year-old as well. So that's lovely because you're a really young mum for him. But it just wasn't right for me. Like I would have been awful as a young mum. And so when you had your baby, can you remember how it felt to suddenly be a mum and have that happen? Yeah, I was obsessed with him.

Like obsessed to the point of, I'd be one of them people that say like, you come over, I'd be like, oh my God, look, he's lifting his fork. He's kicking his ball. And people would be like, yeah, and I'd be like, he's so handsome, isn't he? Isn't he amazing? Oh, my God, isn't he, like, the cutest baby you've ever seen in your entire life?

Have you seen this outfit I bought for him? Like, yeah, I was obsessed with him. And I still am now, I'm not going to lie. I am absolutely obsessed with my kids. Like, I just love them so much. That's why I struggle with the, no, you can't have, because I'm like, oh, my God, they're so cute, though. I'm a bit lie I am absolutely obsessed with my kids like I just love them so much that's why I struggle with that no you can't have because I'm like oh my god they're so cute though um I'm a bit soft in other ways um yeah I was just obsessed with him like I don't know like yeah the minute he was born I was just the love you feel for him is just and I always thought like

I'm never gonna breastfeed when my 20s I was like yuck I'm never gonna do that that's disgusting why would any mother do that the minute I had him I was I want to breastfeed like and I think my mum was even like oh my god like she wants to breastfeed she wants another baby I was like oh my god I think I want four but also I hated the pregnancy I was didn't have a good pregnancy and the birth was horrific so that side I generally didn't like I was right in my 20s on that side but yeah just being a mum I loved it yeah I really did and you always thought you wanted to have more because your daughter now, she's the same age as my youngest.

Yeah. She's really cute. Yeah. I always did want more, but I had a lot of trouble having Bronte. There was a big age, there's a big age gap between them because I just didn't fall pregnant with Bronte.

So I could just call her my little miracle. We were sort of giving up hope and then I got pregnant with her. So it was amazing. And yeah, she's hard work, but she's so cute, but she's hard work she's four I mean you know having five kids like well it's funny because this literally this morning when Mickey my four-year-old was ordering me around and I was like I think I've birthed my own boss yeah I think that's what I've done you've given birth to yourself that's what my mum says just had this boss child yeah just

basically exist to uh fulfil his needs. That's the kind of it. They tell you what to do. And the little things they say when they're four are so funny. Like, she went to me the other day, I'm not wearing that. And I'm just like, you are because you're four years old and that's what you're wearing.

And then she'd come out in, like, a two-ton. We were going to the park. I was like, no, Bronte, you're not wearing that. So, yeah, I love their little characters. I think that's a really nice age, like four and five. it's really funny I definitely like it too so with your when you got to 2019 when you set up your Instagram is that right I basically I majorly I set it up in 2019 I decided I think I might start a page and then I really went for it I'd say like January 2020 was when I really sort of started going for it. And how natural was it for you to

sort of put yourself out there in that way? Because I've heard you talk about anxiety as part of something you deal with. So sometimes that seems slightly counterintuitive to also put yourself out there like that. But obviously, I think it's brilliant to take on challenges. I mean, has it has it helped in some ways with that? Do you no I'd say probably worse I mean I'm really honest um I suffer extreme anxiety and depression I'm not gonna lie I have trouble getting out of bed some days um but I always try and put one full foot forward in front of the other my I've had when I have a low day I've been on Instagram and said it and broke down and cried you know I'm I feel like I'm just a real I I'm just a normal person on there.

And I like to show that side. And I like talking about mental health and anxiety because it's passionate to me because I suffer with it every single day. I battle it. But it's weird. I've not got anxiety speaking to somebody. Like when you came around, like I'm not nervous to meet people.

In fact, I love it. I was like, oh, buzzing. Because it makes me want to get up. Like if you'd not been here this morning, I'd have felt depressed maybe and just overthinking whereas Adam straight away said to me look Sophie's gonna come around like you're gonna have a chat with her like and he's like really positive he's my positive little egg um because I felt really depressed when I woke up this morning I'm not gonna lie um but then I felt doing something positive like this speaking

it does help me and like going for walks really helped me um so yes and no because obviously there's bad sides to social media there's people that can be mean and can be horrible so instantly I've not read or looked at anything I ever do like I don't watch myself back on any tv show I don't really ever listen to a podcast back um I don't my dms are usually really lovely so I'm okay with it but I don't go searching for anything because otherwise I wouldn't be able to cope like that's how I've had to do it so yeah I've gone on it I put something on and I couldn't cope with looking and seeing things because it's all very well we all get spoken about like you could walk out the room now and

I could be like I don't like a cardigan shed on but the beauty you've got of that I do by the way I'm just looking at a cardigan I was was like, whoa, she went straight for the cardigan. Whoa, straight. It's just a pink cardigan. There's nothing wrong with it. You could walk out the room and I could say that, but the beauty of it is you don't know I've said it. Do you get what I mean? Whereas when it's in black and white,

and you know this yourself, what is any good of me coming over to you saying, oh my God, have you seen that comment about you in the Daily Mail, Sophie? They're saying that you look horrible. There's nothing good to come of that. So that side of it, I've just never, ever looked at. So I live in bliss doing that. That's the only thing that I would say is don't look.

If you want to do the page, just don't look at anything. And then the other side of it, I feel in some ways it does help my anxiety because I get to talk on there and perform. So I'm not anxious with doing that because that is that side of me like I'm confident to talk to people it doesn't mean I've not got anxiety I mean I'm so confident I can walk in a room your whole life the anxiety do you think I think it's got worse and worse and worse as the years have gone on and I think it's I think it's probably

what some of the worst anxiety I've had is this month I've ever had in my life, other than going through my divorce. I've just had a terrible month with it, like horrific, overthinking everything, second-guessing everything. I think as well, I wear my heart on my sleeve, I'm really open. So then I go back and think, oh, what did I say? Oh, are they going to like me? Oh, what did I do wrong?

And I've tried as older I've got and I'd got really really good with that I felt like I'd managed it and then this month I'm not gonna lie I've gone back to doing it again so I need to try and get on top of that um definitely but social media is good for me as in like it gives me something to focus on and it gives me a career and a career I enjoy and a purpose yeah and I've met loads of lovely people like I won't be sitting here today with you about it I mean I've met so many interesting people and people that are now my friends that i've met through it that i've stayed in touch with afterwards because if i get on with someone i think i'll get on with them like it doesn't matter if i met them on a podcast tv show they're a singer

they're a dancer they're the man that works down the road he's been in debt i've met so many different friends from doing it all walks of life and that side of it I've loved because I've opened my circle and I connect to all different people and I enjoy that because I can go meet up with different people and stuff and that's good for me. I can see you get energy good energy from being around other people and those one-to-one conversations and I also thank you so much for being open with how you're feeling because um firstly I'm sorry you've been struggling more than normal recently that must be really tough I've got family members who struggle with anxiety so i've seen firsthand how it's not the same as stress or anything like that it's like a really fizzy uncomfortable thing that can take over everything painful it hurts

your body is the best way to describe it and your bones are yeah i can't describe it's weird like when people say describe it i'm not when i'm in my bed but a lot of people don't know what i'm talking about this like when i wake up in the morning I'm inside my bed I feel like I'm in the mattress like I can't get up yeah because if I go back to sleep it turns off my mind so people say trouble sleeping I'm like no I'm the total opposite I can't wake up yeah like if I'm stressed I go to sleep that's the way I deal with things because I think because my mind is so overactive like I'm always on to the next thing maybe that's why I'm good with savings I'm a worrier. It's something I can control, isn't it? Yes.

So maybe that's why I'm good with it. Yeah, that's true. I suppose with numbers in general, if there's a predictable outcome to it, then there's a sort of, there's actually a kind of music in it too, you know? Like, sums make sense, and there's like an equation that's pleasing. And if you're someone that derives pleasure from that, I can imagine it must be quite addictive, actually. Because I don't like knowing the answer.

I want either a yes or a no. So, for example, if I'd asked you to come on your podcast and you were like, I'll get back to you, that would drive me insane. I'd be like, what do you mean, get back to me? Is it a yes or a no? I think because I know the answer straight away. And I think that he's going through a divorce

when he was like, I don't know what I want. And that went on for four months. And I didn't eat for nearly four months. And I think that not knowing, that driven me so so bad later in life that now I can't cope with that like I'd rather you someone just say no you've not got it and then I can deal with it it's really strange once I know the answer so maybe that's the thing with like money and control I I'm not no I have to get to this thing and I won't stop till I do or whatever it is and maybe that's why I've been successful on social media because I'm like no I have to get to this number no I need to grow I need to make

sure I'm doing this right I need to make sure I've got this many rules going on a week I need to make sure I'm doing this yeah maybe it's a control thing as well it feels quite pleasing for your brain to have that sense of that and I totally understand that and I think also when you're describing someone needing four months to decide what they were doing next when you're emotionally invested there's a huge cruelty in that for yeah for you to have to just be waiting to see what horrific absolutely horrific you know even if someone did that for four hours that'd be a long four hours let alone yeah weeks months you know that's and i think that's definitely stayed with me in my life yeah that's traumatic yeah that's deeply traumatic and another thing that can be

traumatic is what i've heard you say about your dyslexia. I've got a dyslexic son and I can see how difficult conventional education is when you don't always feel like you know what's going on in the classroom. How did you feel when you were little with that? My mum harped on about it all the time. My mum always said when I was younger, I've never been diagnosed with ADHD,

but those people always say it's really obvious I've got it. My mum used to say she's dyslexic, she's ADHD she's you know she needs help she writes everything back to front but I think you know yourself years ago it was just like they didn't ever really look into things like that so it was just like I was just kind of just left and they would just like be like oh you've spelt everything wrong you've put all your letters back to front like everything's mirrored and i'm like oh i don't understand and like even like your name for example that's a really hard name for me that is a ridiculous name is it no i get it anyway not even the ellis bexta bit so much really yeah i find that a really hard name to spell i have to like keep putting it in my phone like if i was writing it i'm like i can't even think i'd spell it now um

i don't know whether it's sp or sh and i know it's got an o in it i know that makes sense you'd have a so sound as well yeah and i know it's got an i and i know it's got an e but i don't know which order it goes in and when i see it it's really really weird when i see the way your name is spelt it looks wrong to me well Well, like Sophi or something. Yeah, that's what it looks like. But I spell it Sophi. But in my mind, that looks like... You can call me Sophi.

In my mind, it looks like Sophie. But when I see it written down the right way... You think, oh, I've done it wrong. I would almost argue with him and be like, you've spelt that wrong. And you're like, no, I haven't, Gemma, that's my name. And I'm like, are you sure you spelt that right? And George is another name. I can't spell that yeah my friend's got a little boy called george and i'm always like oh gosh this is birthday so i have to i say it to my phone i go george like

that you know you can't even google sophie like that's there's certain names that i'm just like oh my gosh like i panic on a card i'm like i'll just i know those letters are here hopefully this is right but how good isn't it that with, you know, so much digital technology, it does alleviate so many of these pressures when you're able to use your phone in a different way. So you can get your thoughts across, you can get your ideas across.

And the fact that spelling and long form reading is tricky is just taken away. I love that very much. I think it's brilliant. It's hard when you read things back. Because I wrote something on social media the other day. And luckily, people obviously that follow me know about it. And they were all chuckling.

Because I was trying to put out a positive message. And I said something like, doing this will make you feel better. Whatever it was, I put, won't make, will not make you feel better. Like, I did the other meaning. So basically, the meme was like all positive. And my caption was like, completely negative. And I'd left it for, I think, 24 hours. And everyone was like all positive and my caption was like completely negative. And I'd left it for, I think, 24 hours.

And everyone was like putting laughter under the thing. And I was thinking, what's so funny about this meme? Like, it's not funny. This is a serious subject I'm talking about. And that was getting me stressed. And then I went in my inbox and people were like, oh, Gem, you have made us laugh. Like, you've put the, and I'm like, right, okay, I better go and edit that. So, yeah, sometimes it's a little bit hard because I read things back. People are like, just read it back. And I'm like, I did. And then my friends are like, right, okay, I better go and edit that. So, yeah, sometimes it's a little bit hard because I read things back.

People are like, just read it back. And I'm like, I did. And then my friends are like, okay, right. That's really bad. So, yeah, it is hard. But you know what? Everyone's like, get someone to write your captions. But I'm like, no, I want to be me.

And you've got, I always say to everyone, you've got to Germanise it. Like, understand what I'm saying. You'll get there in the end. Yeah, and also I think people are much much much more au fait with you know people the meaning of something coming across more than the literal because we're all writing and doing our capital like I mean if you're someone that struggles with punctuation grammar spelling like stay away from the internet because it's just like and I'm doing this job and commas and full stops well I know where a full stop kind of comes in but I throw commas in now because I'm trying to get a bit better but I don't actually know if I'm doing this job. And commas and full stops. Well, I know where a full stop kind of comes in, but I throw commas in now because I'm trying to get a bit better,

but I don't actually know if I'm putting it in the right place. Because my mum said, no, Gem, when you're, like, saying something and then you stop there and that's where it needs a comma. So I'm trying to learn. I feel like I've got a bit better, actually. I probably haven't. Everyone's probably listening to this being like, no, Gem, you're dreadful at it.

But, you know, I'm trying. Your mum sounds really cool, by the way. You've mentioned her a few times. She sounds like someone who's always been a lot positive. I'm really close to her, yeah. Does she live near you? She lives in Hertfordshire and I'm in Essex, so it's about 45 minutes away driving,

but mum doesn't drive. Okay, so you don't see her. She never learnt to drive because she couldn't afford it. Oh, wow. Yeah, they couldn't afford driving lessons and she's like, well, I couldn't have afforded a car. And now I've even sort of said to her, well, listen, learn to drive and I'll buy you a car.

And she's like, absolutely not. The cost of petrol, Gemma, I'm not doing drive and i'll buy you a car and she's like absolutely not the cost of petrol general i'm not doing that as i'm in my me and she's like no like so i'm not okay it's time to see where the money management started from yeah like even if now i'll be like oh mum just do that and i'll give you that no it's five pounds you will absolutely not she's like that now and i'm like no mum let me help you but she's always going to be independent she's never going to be like people are like why don't you let your mum come and take her I'm like uh do you know my mum she's not going to be taking that you know like so yeah that's just mum but yeah but that's cool though she's obviously instilled that in you to be able to be very upfront with like nope this is going to cost that so I'm not doing that yeah um can I ask you I was hearing you talk about um teaching money

management in schools um is there much of a momentum behind that? Because I think you were talking about possibly even doing it as a TV programme or something like that. I just think it would be so brilliant. I'm all for it. If you've got a petition going. Well, if you know anyone that can get me on a show

to do it, Soph, let me know. But wouldn't it be so good? Why do they not teach it in schools? Why? It's absolutely ridiculous. Isn't it? Like, they need to be teaching it in schools why absolutely ridiculous isn't it like they need to be teaching in schools i sat on every single podcast i've said it on my instagram i i tried

to open a petition and it got shut down because one was open years ago or something and i was like what it's ridiculous isn't it so i can't even get it in there so i need to try and i've got my pr sort of looking at it and i've got another meeting with them about trying to get it into schools and I said if we could do like a documentary on it where yeah we went in and we spoke to some children and what they wanted to learn then maybe we could cause some noise and some some movement on it but it's just me and I speak to so many mums and I know every single person would sign that petition I reckon we could get like and I know there's so many celebrities and big accounts out there that I know that I could send it that are mums like I know if I sent it to you you'd be like absolutely i'll share my stories that we would

all between us get the things so i am looking at it because i just think i don't think it needs to be an exam because i think that's what the person went down before it doesn't need to be an exam it just i feel it needs to be once a month from sort of maybe year nine to when they leave school once a month an open forum where the teachers just say okay today we're going to talk about a mortgage what you have to do when you get a mortgage yes and when you get a mortgage for 200 000 pounds you're going to be paying back 350 000 pounds because there's a thing called interest for example do you know i mean i'm making these numbers up yeah no no i agree because i remember having a conversation with a few teenagers and they

were like what do you mean if i borrow 200 000 i've got to pay back more than that but i've only borrowed 200 yeah because it's interest. So if you overpaid by like £30 a month, if you've got that extra money, you might bring six months off your mortgage. And that might save you like £10,000 over like the 25-year term. We need to be showing things like that. Like what to do with your first wage packet. When you are 17 and you're living at home with mum and dad, for example,

or 18, and you might be paying mum and dad, say, £100 a week housekeeping, for example, you might be bringing home £1, say, £100 a week housekeeping, for example, you might be bringing home £1,500 a month. You are so rich then, you don't realise it. We need to be teaching in schools. With that £1,500, you've got £600 a month left. You've got £600 for yourself, put £600 away. If they put £600 away every single month, and they did that for four years, they'd almost have a deposit for their first home from 17 to 22 to 23. This is not being told. If this was told, because this is what my mum told me to do, and I told my sister to do it, for their first home from 17 to 22 to 23. This is not being taught. If this was taught, because this is what my mum told me to do and I told my sister to do it, and I saved up £25,000

and my sister saved up £30,000. I did it with my partner at the time, but he wasn't on high money at the time. If this was taught in schools, it would eradicate a lot. What to do when you're in debt? Where do you go? Is it anything to be ashamed of? Absolutely not.

You know, all these these things and teenagers and young kids could ask questions yeah maybe they don't want to ask mum yeah like you know how much is it for your first house like and it can be done by area because every year it's ridiculous saying to a child up north what it is in london so each classroom needs to be tailor-made for that child so okay well if you live around here you're going to be paying 200 grand for a house but if you move to london you're going to be paying two million for a flat so you have to decide where you want to live so even if you're going to rent in london you'd need to be on more money and if you go into london you'll get a thing called london waiting and just little things that

we need to know like i totally agree every single day like we teach religious education and i think that is important do not get me wrong but why can't we remove something like that once a month and teach them about money? Because not everyone's going to be interested in religion. But everybody, whatever religion you are, whatever you believe in, money, we're all related to money. Me, you, everybody in this room is related to money. We've all got that connected to us.

Whether you're a multimillionaire or you are thousands of pounds worth in debt, we've all got money connected to us. So we need to be taught it. It's absolutely mental. Even if it's even more basic, millionaire or you are thousands of pounds worth in debt we've all got money connected to us so we need to be taught it it's it's it's absolutely mental even if it's even more basic even if they just had it where there was you know an organization that went around schools and did a week in i think you could even start in primary with basic i do budgeting you know what it's going to feel like when you're great when you know sent from secondary teaching a difference between you know what it's going to feel like when you're great when you know from secondary teaching a

difference between you know different types of employment what's expected of you know how you taxes all this kind of thing oh my goodness and i do wonder sometimes if there's i mean i'm not a conspiracy theorist in any way but i do wonder if if there's a some sort of i don't know convenience and a lot of people not really having a good handle on how these things work yeah or do they want do they want us to get in debt? Do they want the interest? Is there someone? Exactly.

I do think that. How is it not being taught? I know. And you could do it easy with primary school things. There's like tuck shops and whatever they call them nowadays. Probably not a tuck shop, is it? Probably properly old school. But, you know, maybe you could even do a thing like this where you can say to all the parents,

we want you to give your kids £2, £5, £10, whatever the school agrees, whatever the school is, wherever it is, and we're going to run a tuck shop, and we want the kids to try and make it last a week and see what kids spend it in a day and what kids buy a chocolate bar every single day. Like, run interesting products like that. Products, projects like that.

And then that would get them into, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, I did. I bought a chocolate bar. And everyone's still got a chocolate bar at the end of the week because I've spent all my money on day one. And it might be something that sticks with them. I think so. For our life. Because also, what you said there about some kids spending it one way and some another,

I think that everybody's got their money personality as well. Because with my children, I can already see differences from some of them who are happy to save up money and some of them where it burns a hole in their pocket and they're like, I want to save up for this, but actually, do you give your kids pocket money? I give Brodie now, he's hit 10, he's got a GoHenry card and he gets £2 a week on that.

And do you think the digital approach to money for kids gives them a good understanding of, because I did the same sort of thing and for me, I think it was a stupid thing to do because I think before I did a digital app version of their pocket money I would only do it when they remembered and then suddenly it goes out of my account all the time and they don't notice it half the time and then it comes out again because they just don't have any sort of idea of like the reality of what that

money is well I do agree with you but I also feel like we're in such a digital world that yeah that's why they're older they're probably going to be cashless which is why i've done it but it's interesting because brody does say to me what's on my go henry and he's like oh i'm saving it up i'm saving it up and he wanted this jumper in zara it's the first thing he's bought um because he went can i get this jumper and i thought it was horrible it was i just absolutely hated it i went absolutely not it's absolutely disgusting if you've got my GoHemory card on you and I went yeah and then he went well I'm gonna buy my jumper then on that if you don't want to buy me and I thought how can I say no really because that's fine and I went but I was thinking I really don't

want you to wear that with me so I was like but it's really horrible he's like well I really like it so I was like okay and he went how much is it and I think it was like I think it was 18 pounds and he had about 22 pounds he's like I've got enough to buy it And he went, how much is it? And I think it was like, I think it was 18 pounds. And he had about 22 pounds. So he's like, I've got enough to bite. And he went, right, I've got a free pan of fry. I'm going to save up now for, well, I can't think what he's saving up for now. He said he was saving up for prime, but now he's got one. Hopefully I'll get him off that subject again.

But yeah, it was interesting to me that he did work out that he did have his own money. And I see his little face. He was really proud at the counter, you know, like when he went and touched his own money and he i see his little face he was really proud at the counter you know like when you went and touched it and he walked out of his little bag and he did look really really happy about it you'll always remember that i reckon he has already said to me that such and such gets five pound a week or such and such gets ten pound a week and i was like well two pound a week at 10 years old is more than enough money brody that's what i'm paying you i don't care what they get yeah and then i always say to him well what about the other kid either you told me only gets a pound a week you don't care what they get. Yeah. And then I always say to him, well, what about the other kid? You told me he only gets a pound a week.

You don't mention him. And he starts laughing and he goes, oh, yeah. I go, well, like, because he goes, oh, such and such gets this. You don't pay me that. And I go, okay,

I'll pay you the same amount as the other kid. And he's like, oh, no, I don't want you to do that. Oh, because I get less. I said, no, if you want to be, like, the same as your mates, Brodie.

So I try and sort of devil's advocate him. And he's like, oh, all right then. So I'm like, oh, if you want to be the same, I'm going to pick that kid because that kid gets less than Brode's. And he's like, no, all right So I'm like, oh, if you want to be the same, I'm going to pick that kid because that kid gets less than Broads.

And he's like, all right then, Mum. That's so good. That's so good. Beat him in the brain game, as you say. He sounds like he's quite into his fashion. I'm counting like high tops and the Gucci handbag and the jumper. I think he's quite into his look. He only goes through things.

Now it's like football and he wanted a football kit as well. Oh, that's expensive, isn't it? Oh, gosh, they are. And when they're older, have you thought of when they're going to be, okay, financial independent? Are you going to encourage them to get jobs when they can and that kind of thing? Oh, yeah, I'm going to have them washing my car in another year. I've got Bronte washing down my paperwork later and she's four now.

She'd better start working. I want a return on investment, a money mum, for goodness sake. I didn't push her out for nothing. I better do. I'm thinking you've got five I'm thinking how I can get them coming around working for me for some cheap labour you've got an older one it's going to be babysitting later

yeah I definitely want them to get jobs I do think that's really important but I also as well I want to encourage I think because I do social media and I've got a job I love I also want to if they want to do something that is different I want to encourage that I want them to do what makes them happy and if they work their butts off and they want to be a singer or they

want to be a youtuber if they work hard at that I would I would happily let them live rent-free when they're older not give them money so they'd have to get a part-time job and let them do that career and do that for a couple of years if they worked. If they didn't, then there would be a different conversation. So I'm definitely up for, I want them to live a happy life because I don't want them, I'd love them to do a job they love because then it feels like you're not working.

What's the saying? It's like you never go to work if you're happy or something. The saying is, I can't do it. Yeah, exactly. So that's really important to me. But, yeah, I want them to have a first job and, like, save up for their first car and things like that. I do think that's really important.

We have got savings accounts for the kids that we opened when they were younger, and we do put money away. But I don't want them to have that till they're 25. I don't think, like, 18. Who knows? They could be really sensible at 18, but they might not be. And 21, I still feel now is really, really young. Whereas I think at 25, you've got more of an understanding.

Yeah. So, you know, I do want to help them where I can. But yeah, with the first car thing, I might do something where like, if they want a car, say it was 7,000 pounds, they've got to save up half of it and I'll give them the other half. Meet me in the middle. you see what I mean? So I think that's fair then. So I want to be fair and I want to help them

and I love them and I adore them. And of course I'd love to buy them everything, but they also do have to learn. And I think as well, I think I would give them a bit more later in life. So if I became majorly successful and I was worth loads of money and they were grounded and they had children,

they were in their 30s and 40s, when they appreciate it, that's when I'd probably give them the money and be like okay right look i've seen you've worked really hard i'm gonna give you a big lump sum now because i know that you've done it for you but i don't i wouldn't i'm not gonna do that at 17 18 19 absolutely no way that's so smart i've said there's been a lot of things you've said that made me want to sort of slightly start again with some of the approaches i've taken with my kids your kids are gonna hate me you're gonna be like oh right, Gem says you can't have your money now until you're 40. They'll be like, we're basically dead at 40, mum. Why have you gone and seen her today?

She's not welcome. And when you talk about getting investment back for your kids, it reminded me when I was a kid and I'd go and see my dad and my dad, because my mum and dad weren't together anymore. I'd see him every other weekend. And he was always getting me to do jobs. I just wondered what you'd think of the fact that he made me create his entire garden fence and i got a fiver that's not good is it i think he's a bit of a legend i feel like i want to go out for a drink with him he sounds like my type of man is he single see she's infectiously lovely isn't she Gemma what a wise woman such lovely company and um a little bit of a funny thing I told that story about my dad getting me to creosote the fence and paying me a fiver well Richard had to do a little edit there because by accident when I first

said it I said asbestos I promise you my dad didn't make me asbestos the garden fence. That would be bad and I'd obviously charge more than a fiver for that. Anyway, how do you feel about money? I have a kind of mixed relationship with money. Sometimes I feel I try to be not too abashed about talking about it. I'm self-employed and I have to employ other people. So I have to be okay with talking to people about wages. And I'm a bit squeamish about it sometimes,

but I've really made a point to try and say, you know, let's just be able to talk about money frankly. It's funny though, isn't it? How personal it is and how uptight it makes you when you start thinking about it. I mean, I've got really close girlfriends and we have never discussed how much either of us gets paid for anything.

I don't know. It's just not part of the normal dialogue. I think it feels like a bit of a forbidden zone, a bit taboo really. Maybe you're better at it than me. I don't know. But I do hope after hearing from jemma you do feel you've got a little bit more of a handle on things possibly it can it can only help

or uh it's just nice to hear someone talking so straight up about ways to make money work better for you yeah and um i think we're getting near the end of the series still a few more lovely guests to come and i started doing the next series as well of course but yes we're actually also approaching the third birthday of the podcast that's gone quick on there anyway thank you as ever for your time thank you to jemma for being such a lovely guest and just as a side uh thank you to anybody that's given me any nice messages about the new record even though i've been doing what i do for a really long time i still get a little bit of a you know it does matter to me what people think so everybody that sent me a little message and said something nice it really really counts it's a bit like opening up your diary or something and

getting people to read your entries you just want people to think that what you've done is okay so so yeah thank you if you buoyed me up and I'm actually off to the circus tonight as I said and actually oh funnily enough one of the people in the circus was a previous guest do you remember Amelia who does the horses acrobatics on a horse so I'll be seeing her off to Giffords um and yeah it's been a nice nice ending to half term week, and off to do a couple of gigs this weekend, I'll be in Dublin tomorrow with Soft Cell, and Heaven 17, and OMD,

and then off to Mighty Hoopla on Sunday, and if you're hearing this on next week, well of course you are, it won't be I hearing it before, sorry, what a silly thing to say, then next weekend I'm at the Cambridge Club Festival as well, and I'm also going camping with the kids on Friday night. Oh my goodness.

That will be an unrelaxing night. Don't know about you, but I can never really sleep in a tent. Anyone that's talking outside just feels like they're like right next to your ear. But they're really looking forward to it. So it'll be fun. All right. Rambling over for me. Thank you so much.

See you next week. Bye for now. Let's love. I'm not afraid of the dark