Start With A Win - How a Jack-of-All-Trades Can Still Reach the Top with Cliff Hudson

Starting point is 00:00:00 Every day is filled with choices. You're here because you're choosing to start with a win. Get ready to be inspired, learn something new, and connect with the win nation. Coming to you from Remax World Headquarter, Denver, Colorado. Adam Contos, CEO here with Start With A Win. We have on the other side of this virtual studio, producer Mark. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing so good. Not as good as you with your cherry limeade over there. Tell me a cherry limeade.

Starting point is 00:00:38 I mean, hello. Product placement is everything. I need a shelf to put it. If you're just listening to this podcast, Adam has this delicious, large cherry limeade. Go over on YouTube and watch this episode. Mark, I have the cherry limeade for a very special reason, okay? We have a very special guest today. We have the former chairman, former CEO, former did just about everything else in the company for decades at Sonic. Mr. Cliff Hudson,

Starting point is 00:01:07 how are you doing, my friend? Doing great. Doing great. Adam, great to be with you on the show today. Thanks for having me. Hey, it's my pleasure. And you've been such an inspiration to me over the years. CEOs follow good CEOs. And it's been really cool to watch you. And you just put out a new book recently, Master of None. Is that what it's called? Master of None. Yeah, Master of None. Subtitle, subtitle, critical part of it too. How a jack of all trades can still reach the top,

Starting point is 00:01:34 which I think is a pretty good description of my background and my path. Well, why don't you tell us about that? I mean, you know, jack of all trades, how a jack of all trades can reach the top because so many people in life, you know, we've got some people, you know, like a surgeon or, and I know you're an attorney by education, by trade a little bit, things like, you know, a lot of people pick this path in life. But how can you, if you've been a jack of all trades, figure out how to find this massive amount of success like what you've found. Give us a little history on your thought behind that. Well, I think in some ways, I think the jack of all trades is a contributor to success. But from my standpoint, running a franchise organization for 23 years, to be exact, I think did require the development of skills over time, there's no doubt. And I think the whole focus of the book, I'd say for the average reader,

Starting point is 00:02:35 if a person is thinking about becoming a brain surgeon or something that requires a very, very high level specialty, then I think having a great degree of focus and developing that specialty is critical to their career. But most people aren't going to become brain surgeons. And I also think many, many people, particularly if they do have a head construct that's more of a generalist, and they do enjoy a variety of things in life, they may not know really what path they want to be on for a number of years. And so to a great degree, when I say a number of years, I'm talking, you know, 25, 30 years old, you know, and older. So I think having good basic preparation, good education, learn how to be a good thinker, critical analysis, broad understanding of the world. These are all good things that no matter what path you go down, they're good preparation.

Starting point is 00:03:36 But they also give you an appreciation for a variety of paths instead of a single path you're going to focus on. But also, I think the world around us is changing rapidly enough, particularly because of technology, even if you want to go into technology. I mean, the idea of focusing on one area of technology and becoming a high degree, getting a high degree of specialty, only to see that change, you know, underneath, you know, shift underneath you in a short period of time. It's a real possibility and not just a possibility, it's happening daily, you know. So, this, the thought really is about good general preparation, good general education, critical

Starting point is 00:04:18 thinking skills, awareness of the world, and if you have interest in a broad variety of things, pursue a variety of interests. Don't just pursue one because I think pursuing one can actually dull your senses rather than sharpen them. So these are the ideas. I love that. And I'm just sitting here kind of unpacking the depth of what you're saying right now. You started as an attorney in your professional life. You were an attorney in your mid to late 20s, and that's when you started working with Sonic. Is that correct? That's correct. And my undergraduate work before then, nothing against accounting, just a question of whether it works for you. But my dad did say to me when I was in college, you know, if you think about going to

Starting point is 00:05:07 law school, these guys that have CPA and law degree, you know, it's really a strong combination. So, I enrolled in an accounting course, and I went one day, and I dropped the course the next day and picked up a cultural anthropology course. So, I mean, it really couldn't, it could be more different. I don't know what it would be to be more different than the accounting class. But that really was not for me. I ended up being a history major, which I enjoyed then. I enjoy now. And you can see in the book references to various historical figures and how they represent

Starting point is 00:05:43 good leadership models for anyone in a leadership position or anyone who aspires to be in a leadership position. So I did study history, and as I said, reading history now, just finished the biography of James Baker that's just out. It's really a wonderful book by Peter Baker and unrelated. But at any rate, so history into law, not knowing what path I wanted to go down. In law school, to my surprise, I enjoyed business law more than I had any idea I would. I didn't intend to go that path, but you had to take corporations law and advisable to take tax law and so on. So I ended up taking securities law, business law, business planning, and just thoroughly enjoyed it. And did that in private practice for a few years, then became general counsel of Sonic, a pretty stunning move at a pretty young age.

Starting point is 00:06:41 I was 29 years old when I became general counsel of Sonic. And then from there, just got into the business in a big way and learned the business and gradually grew out of the business, you might say. But yes, law was my path and there was some degree of specialty, but I think that provided a path to becoming more of a generalist over time. I love that. And you always talk about exploring. You talk about exploring in the book and seeking more knowledge, which gets you to that jack-of-all-trades mindset of not being afraid of breaking outside of your space, which I think a lot of people, they classify themselves as an attorney, you know, maybe they're, I came from law enforcement. So a lot of people in law enforcement, I'm a cop. I don't know anything else.

Starting point is 00:07:29 But the reality is you have the opportunity to be other things. Wouldn't you agree? Absolutely. very helpful in broadening a person's perspective is to pursue the natural curiosity you have about any number of things in life. And when something strikes you as being interesting, the fact that you don't have expertise in it, or the fact that it's not your immediate area of responsibility, if you're, you know, within an organization, doesn't mean you shouldn't pursue it. And, and particularly, if it is something that clicks for you, you know, and people, you can tell that, I mean, it may not be something you've formally studied, but you, you, you're,

Starting point is 00:08:21 you're, your thought is, you know, this, this is an area that feels right for me, and I'd like to learn more about it, then pursue it. It's not going to make you a poorer employee, and it's not going to make you a less interesting person. I mean, just the opposite. So I think this idea of open to opportunity, naturally curious, and when things do appeal to you, there's a reason for that. And pursue it on some level or another, and it will make you a richer person.

Starting point is 00:08:53 Do you think people have this underlying fear of going out and pursuing those things? I mean, it seems like people are hesitant to do that sometimes. What can you get them off the dime with and and to start you know to tomorrow go out and say hey it's 2021 go learn something new and see if you'll fall in love with it i mean how do how do you get somebody to do that have you ever well i suppose part of this may i mean the answer is yes i think a lot of people are maybe they are for a lot of for varying reasons. Part of this may depend upon their employer and whether their employer encourages that kind of exploration or whether the employer discourages it. An employer that discourages it, I think, does everyone a disservice because not only does it squelch creativity when an employer has that attitude, but it also means a less well-developed employee.

Starting point is 00:09:49 So an employer's attitude, and it's not just a question of feedback, telling somebody to do it or not to do it, but rather what kind of place of employment do you create that has a kind of openness and exchange and ready involvement or activities within the organization that are interdisciplinary and give people focus to other areas of responsibility beyond their own immediate responsibility so they can develop, you know? So a lot of it, I think, you know, speaking about development or the leadership development within organizations, a lot of it does have to do with the culture of an organization, whether it permits a person to go down that path. That's a great, great point, which kind of moves me to my next thought to kind of dig into here. The difference between specializing and generalizing and an employer encouraging that. Because, you know, you look at like a succession plan in a business or a succession plan for a leader, which is really important, obviously, to a leader is to build a successor.

Starting point is 00:10:57 But you don't know what they don't know. We've, like, we're a public company. I mean, a big corporation like you guys, and you look at it and you go, my job is to develop leaders, but not necessarily doing exactly what they're doing. Do you think that's a – it kind of gets uncomfortable for a leader to think that, but you've got to go into it and go, I'm comfortable with it, and I want to encourage that. Is that something you encountered during your time as a CEO, is trying to drive leadership development? Well, yes, absolutely. And we worked, really, to do that at all levels. But specifically, as it relates to succession planning,

Starting point is 00:11:38 one of the methods that I utilize, sometimes a board member can say, you know, who is your successor? And I always, I've worked over time, and with some refinement, I worked over time to stay away from that discussion. My discussion with my board was, here is a layout of the one, two, or three people, or senior in the organization, most likely report to me, but senior in the organization who have the potential of having my job someday. And so by lining out in that way, it wasn't so much to say to the board, because I don't even think it's a good approach with some exceptions. I mean, if there really is a person that you know is going to succeed you, the nature, either the CEO or the organization necessitates that kind of specificity. But aside from that, the opportunity to develop several candidates is a good idea anyway. There is more than one person likely would like to have the CEO job.

Starting point is 00:12:50 So lining up those folks, not literally, but lining out their characteristics. What I did with my board was say, here are six or seven fields that I think you as a board should be looking to in my, in assessing my successor. And then I'd go through with each of these candidates with the board in private, a discussion about those characteristics with each of the three, each of the three individuals. And talk about which one of them were stronger in one area versus another. And to the extent there was a, you know, you might say a weakness, but a gap. To the extent there was a gap with one of them in one of these fields, then my job, along with my human resource director, my job was to help them develop their skills to close that gap. And so this was the process we utilized, and it really didn't pit anyone against another person. Rather, it was an attempt to strengthen all of them. Great concept, great philosophy. I love that. You know, you're really kind of,

Starting point is 00:14:02 you're coaching them through their personal development, it seems, you know, more than anything, which really, we know a great leader is a great coach. And you talked, I've heard you talk about how you didn't know anything about marketing. I mean, you were an attorney, got into being a CFO, things like that. But you had to learn marketing, which, you know, that's an example of becoming a generalist, right? Is, I mean, how did you discover what you need to learn when you're, when you need to become a generalist? Well, it's a funny, yeah, the marketing thing in particular is a funny thing because, you know, Sonic was a marketing-driven chain. It was a marketing-driven business. It was primarily, it was 95% franchise operations. And so, most of the so most of the operating of drive-ins or restaurants and the interface with consumers or customers was done through third parties, i.e. franchisees. So our job, to the greatest degree, was marketing, purchasing, distribution, and ultimately development of technology initiatives. So, you know, I think in terms of, I think to some degree,

Starting point is 00:15:09 though I never studied marketing, I did, I think I quite apparently came in with some understanding that or some basic understanding of key messaging. Well, I should say first targeted, you know, who is my consumer? Who is my customer? How do I target them? What's my messaging? And, you know, what does success look like? And so I think I had some of that intuitively as a young person.

Starting point is 00:15:35 I can look back and see circumstances in which I exercised that far better than my peers. But it took me a number of years, and I had good marketing people inside and outside the company. It took me a number of years to trust my own instincts about these things. And so, over time, I probably stepped in and played more of a role than my CMO wanted me to play. But that's life, you know. But it was also an area that I enjoyed in terms of anything that would have surprised me, you know. I got into a lot of accounting over the years in spite of my earlier story, but the areas I got into, investor relations and accounting and purchasing and distribution, technology, marketing generally, followed by technology.

Starting point is 00:16:25 Marketing generally was something I think I developed some pretty good expertise in, had a big impact on the business and enjoyed it. It was all OJT. That's it. And that's one of the things I love about franchising. And, you know, we're 100% franchised. We have two franchise brands, Remax and Model Mortgage. And I'm part of the International Franchise Association. It's kind of fun in this space because you get to be that generalist and kind of bounce around. But at the same time, you also, and this leads me to my next question, you kind of fall into this rut a little bit of, okay, you see the challenges of business. And I actually zoomed into one of our

Starting point is 00:17:06 franchisees this morning and discussed this during a business planning seminar. You start seeing challenges more than anything else. And one of the things that you point out in your leadership and your experience is start looking for the opportunities. How do you keep people focused on that mindset shift? Because it's a fear versus love or a closed versus open or limited versus unlimited mindset. As a leader, what advice do you have for us on how to keep going in the right direction? Well, that's a good question. And I think you can come at it from a variety of directions. In my background in history, I would say going back centuries, some of the earliest historians and historian philosophers would say, you know, the changes

Starting point is 00:18:01 that are going to occur and you've got to confront are not periodic. They're constant, that life is change. And in small ways or big ways, life is change. And, you know, Benjamin Franklin had the comment that when you're finished changing, you're finished. You know, that was one of his many quotes, which I thought was a good one. But because of that, I think then when we look at an organization, and particularly the job of management, the job isn't to avoid changes. The job isn't to sidestep things. As senior management, in particular, your job is to deal with those changes, deal with the challenges, or as you might say, deal with the opportunities. And the reason that's a critical viewpoint, I think, is because if you view it as an opportunity,

Starting point is 00:18:53 then you're going to confront it differently and confront it more, I think, optimistically and make something good out of it. I'm sure in your business, you've seen any number of times over the years, something initially looked like a real problem. Once your group got to it and figured out a way to approach it, you may have not only fixed the problem, you really created a great opportunity. And if I have, you know, if I can maybe try in one minute to tell one of my favorite stories about Sonic. Sure. We had operators who really wanted to keep their marketing local. And so almost all the marketing money, let's say 1998, 1999, I've been CEO about

Starting point is 00:19:35 three or four years, almost all the money was spent locally. I shouldn't say almost, it really was all spent locally, all the media dollars. And we had a promotion that didn't work. And the product that was left over was frozen shrimp. And so, okay, well, if you don't use paper goods, you just stick them in a warehouse and wait. If you're not using all your straws, you stick them in their warehouse and wait. Well, if you didn't sell the shrimp, you can't wait. And it's not going to get better by waiting. You got a certain shelf life on the shrimp, you can't wait. And it's not going to get better by waiting. You know, you got a certain shelf life on the shrimp. You got to move it out.

Starting point is 00:20:08 So we ended up trying to find a way without having a big write-off how we could move this shrimp. And what happened in the way we got it solved was through bartering it with third parties. And we didn't get cash for our shrimp. We got media. We got media from Turner Broadcasting. And so the next thing you know, here our brand was on some national sporting events. And our operators, our franchise operators did backflips. And so their question was, you know, not where did that come from? Their question was, how do we get more of that? So our answer was, well, we can show you how to get more.

Starting point is 00:20:45 And so it began a process of getting them first to agree to a half percentage point, then a full percentage point, and then two percentage points into a national fund, which almost 15 years later finally reached a point where about 85% of their contribution went into a national fund, 15% local. Changed the business, fundamentally changed the business. Never would have become a national brand without that changing. And yet it was a fluke. It was a problem.

Starting point is 00:21:13 How do we avoid, at that time, I think a $400,000 write-off on shrimp? How do we avoid a write-off? And the solution opened our world. It was fantastic. That's a great story. Yeah. Yeah. I tell you what, the magic of national advertising, right?

Starting point is 00:21:30 I know my CMO is going to be listening to this going, yes. Because when we went national advertising, which was in the 80s, it really blew up the company as well. Yeah. Yeah. It makes all the difference in the world. Sure. Oh, totally. Totally. So Cliff, um, there've been a lot of great lessons in, in this discussion we've had

Starting point is 00:21:51 here and I, I sincerely appreciate, uh, you spending the time with us. I do have a final question for you though, that we ask every one of our guests that are, our listeners love to hear from our leaders that we have on the show, and that's, Cliff, how do you start your day with a win? Well, that's an interesting question, Adam, and I think for an active person, a particular leader of people, leader organization, it's a good question to ask and a good question to have an answer to. I think that I would say my number one thing over the decades that I was providing corporate leadership, my start of my day to have a win was to get up early and get moving. And I almost invariably start my day with exercise. And so you may say, well,

Starting point is 00:22:44 that's not that unusual. Well, okay, maybe it's not. But I think the critical part of it is obvious, it's great for the body. And it's great for the mind. In my case, the exercise that I engaged in for decades and still do is swimming. And one of the great things about swimming, depending on how much you do or don't want to focus on your strokes and your kick and so on, is you can focus on your day and then focus on where you are, what happened yesterday, things coming up. And invariably, going through that process in the morning, I came out of the pool with a much more orderly head, you know, than how I went into the pool. And so helping me get focused on the day, you know, get the juices flowing literally,

Starting point is 00:23:34 but oxygen pumped to the brain and spending that time focusing on what was ahead of me today made all the difference in my world. In some ways, it was a real lifesaver of those decades. But whatever that is for you, a person, I think getting up, getting moving, get oxygen to the brain and getting your head organized on the day is a critical piece to a successful day. Wow. Great lessons there, Cliff. Thank you for being on the show. Make sure you check out Cliff Hudson's book, Master of None, wherever you get your favorite books. I tell you what, some great business life

Starting point is 00:24:13 and personal reflection stories. So thank you again for being on Start With A Win and we appreciate all that you do. Adam, thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity to be with you today. It's my pleasure. And thank you so much for listening to Start With A Win. If you'd like to ask Adam a question or tell us your Start With The Win story, give us a call and leave us a message at 888-581-4430.

Starting point is 00:24:36 Don't forget to go on to iTunes and subscribe, write a review, and rate the show. For more great content, head over to startwiththewin.com, follow Adam on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. And remember, start with a win.

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Start With A Win - How a Jack-of-All-Trades Can Still Reach the Top with Cliff Hudson

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