Start With A Win - How Tracy Walder Went From Sorority Sister to CIA Officer & FBI Agent - Part 1

Episode Date: July 14, 2021

Tracy Walder joins Win Nation as a USC alum, Delta sorority sister, author, and former CIA officer and FBI special agent. While majoring in history at USC, Tracy was recruited at a career fair by the CIA, and she spent most of her career as a Special Operations Officer for the Agency’s Counterterrorism Center. After her time in the CIA, she became a Special Agent for the FBI, specializing in counterintelligence operations. Tracy’s five years of service earned her numerous awards during her time with both organizations. After her time with the CIA and FBI, Tracy authored The Unexpected Spy, an apolitical memoir of her experiences—such as debriefing terrorists—and insights as a young woman in intelligence and law enforcement. She hopes the book will help and inspire others who aspire to pursue a career in these fields. Tracy is currently a criminal justice professor at Texas Christian University and a teacher at an all-girls high school, teaching curriculum she created on terrorism and national security. As students have turned to her for advice over the years, she reveals that no specific “formula” will determine career success in the CIA and FBI. It requires more than learning the right curriculum to be successful in these organizations. Tracy explains that soft skills, like empathy, collaboration, listening, problem-solving, and not allowing preconceived notions to interfere with work, are critical in pursuing a career in the CIA or FBI. Tracy identifies as an introverted-extrovert person with a strong sense of curiosity, judgment, and confidence. Tracy seeks to ask questions to gain a better understanding of others and their situations. Tune in to next week’s episode to hear part 2 of this conversation!Connect with Tracy:https://www.tracywalder.com/https://www.amazon.com/Unexpected-Spy-Secret-Notorious-Terrorists/dp/1250230985https://twitter.com/tracy_walder https://www.linkedin.com/in/tracy-schandler-walder-026547130/Connect with Adam:https://www.startwithawin.com/https://www.facebook.com/REMAXAdamContoshttps://twitter.com/REMAXAdamContoshttps://www.instagram.com/REMAXadamcontos/ Leave us a voicemail:888-581-4430

Every day is filled with choices. You're here because you're choosing to start with a win. Get ready to be inspired, learn something new, and connect with the win nation. And coming to you from Remax World Headquarters in Denver, Colorado, it's Adam Contos, CEO of Remax with Start With A Win. How you doing, Producer Mark? I'm doing so good. I love it. I love it. You got your baseball cap on today. Yeah, you know, it's that kind of baseball cap cut of day. Well, they're doing the, what is it, the All-Star Game is this week here in Denver.

Yeah, here in Denver, exactly. Yeah, so very cool. Well, hey, we have a really, really cool guest here. So, you know, I spend a little time in law enforcement and really interested in this kind of stuff, really how interesting people do interesting and great things in this world. So today we have Tracy Walder, a former CIA officer and FBI special agent on the show. Tracy worked as a staff operations officer at the Central Intelligence Agency's Counterterrorism Center Weapons of Mass Destruction Group. Wow, that's a mouthful.

Tracy's book, The Unexpected Spy, details her incredible true story. So she happened to meet a CIA recruiter at a job fair and was recruited by the agency while a USC student and Delta Gamma sorority sister. Tracy would spend the next five years as a covert operative for CIA's counterterrorism center, assuming aliases, thwarting terrorist attacks. It sounds like an action adventure movie. It's pretty cool. She even hid in the trunks of cars on her way to debrief terrorists at black sites. She's received numerous awards from the government on counterterrorism, Operation Enduring Freedom, targeting awards, things like that. I mean, this is really cool. Tracy, welcome to Start With A Win. How are you doing today?

Thank you so much for having me, Adam. I really appreciate it. And I'm excited to be here. Well, we're excited to have you. I mean, this is like a big history. Tell us about Tracy. How do you describe yourself? What do you tell people when they go, hey, tell me about yourself? We want the real story too. Not the whatever your fake name was. That's a hard question to answer. I'm pretty, I can be pretty shy, I guess. Um, and, uh, not very, uh, I don't talk about myself a whole lot. So I guess I would say I'm an introverted extrovert is, is what I would tell people. I think another adjective probably to describe me is tenacious. I'm very tenacious. I guess if someone says you can't, I take that as you can. So I think that's how folks would probably describe me. Maybe that's annoying. Well, I mean, that's pretty cool because you got to love somebody who wants to find a bigger opportunity, a higher level of achievement, things like that. And it sounds like you. So it's pretty cool. But let's rewind. Okay, so you're a Delta Gamma sorority sister and you go to a job fair. And somehow you ended up at the CIA booth. I mean, how did that

work? So I guess sort of like you, you and I were talking a little bit about how, you know, you come from a law enforcement family. I didn't really come from a CIA family, if you will. But I, you know, I've, my great grandparents fought in the Franco-Prussian War. Both of my grandpas fought in World War II. My dad and my uncle are Vietnam veterans. My dad has sailed the Transpac four times. So I come from a, I guess, adventurous family. I mean, maybe that's sort of the right word for it. And so I think I've always had this sense of adventure, but I didn't have a word for it or like

a place for it necessarily. And, you know, growing up, I think I described that I was a little tenacious. I was born with a developmental disability. And so, you know, people didn't even know that I would walk. And once I did, I think I took that as, okay, I've got this, like I can do this. And I was bullied a lot. And so I spent a lot of time with myself, I guess, and with my parents. We traveled a lot. And I decided to go to USC. My dad's a professor there. So that's where I got free tuition. And so that's why I decided to go there was to obviously not have college loans. And I decided to join a sorority. And really, actually, the sorority was a turning point for me and my confidence because I was bullied so much.

A lot of those women encouraged me to meet with my professors if I had questions, to not be shy necessarily about doing that. And I had an intro to economics professor. I didn't do super great. And that class is really tough. And, you know, he asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. And I said, oh, I'm here as a history major. I'm going to be history teacher. I had a really influential teacher. That's what I was going to do. And he's like, well, there's so many other things you could do with that degree. And he gave me sort of this list. And I started checking off boxes, interned at a law firm, interned for a senator, interned at a museum, sort of checking

boxes off. But nothing was really, I guess, it was great, but it wasn't, I guess, my calling. I hadn't identified those things as my calling until 1997. And I know I'm really dating myself here. But I watched an interview, it was Bin Laden's first interview, I guess, with a Western TV station, I believe it was CNN. And that's where he issued his declaration of war against the United States. And that, for me, was sort of this turning point. I grew up at a time where terrorism was actually here. I grew up at a time of the Oklahoma City bombing. I don't know if any of the listeners know about that. Waco. That's to me what my version of terrorism was. And so really things were just starting to sort

of happen in the Middle East, but we didn't have a name necessarily for it. And so I went to a career fair with one of my sorority sisters on a whim. And I saw the CIA was looking for history majors. And I said, Hey, do you guys do this terrorism thing? Because this is before September 1. So this would have been 99, I believe. And they said, yes. And I gave them my resume and I guess sort of the rest is history. Wow. So, I mean, you're, but you're a college professor now also, right? Where do you teach Texas Christian? Yes. I am a professor of criminal justice at Texas Christian university. And then I have my all girls school, high school curriculum that I made on terrorism and national security.

So I teach at an all-girls high school as well. Wow. So you look at it and you're like, this bin Laden guy has thrown down the gauntlet and I'm all in. Truly amazing. I remember those times. And I think you and I grew up in some relatively similar directions here and feeling like, you know, somebody is punching our country in the face and we're going to do something about it. And kudos to you for stepping in and saying. For me, it was a little different. It wasn't. Yes, it was about America,

of course. But and I do talk about this in my book. So I'm Jewish. I'm not deeply religious by any sense of the word, but I grew up going to Sunday school. I mean, I didn't love it, you know, those kinds of things. And for me, in the time when I grew up, I had to go through metal detectors going to, you know, my Sunday school. And my friends, when I would go with them to like their Bible studies and things like that, I didn't have to do that at their churches. And so I didn't understand this whole Middle East conflict was obviously going on. But when you're, what, 11, 12, you're not really old enough to comprehend that.

But, you know, in bin Laden's interview, in that 97 interview, I think people forget, yes, he issued his declaration of war against the U.S., but he also issued a declaration of war against Jews. And so when you're 19, it's all about you, right? And so I think I thought, oh, excuse me, you know, you're coming for me too. And so I think it was a combination of both. I don't want to seem like I'm that patriotic. I am, but I'm just was not that. Well, I like your intensity and, you know, your conviction. That's, it's really important in life. And I, I think it's, it's cool to see because, you know, you talked about how you were bullied and you had developmental disabilities or whatever it might be.

And, you know, the, first of all, by the way, I mean, sororities do amazing things for women. I mean, just, you know, teaching you so much in the structure and building confidence and, and, uh, and direction and things like that. And it's, it's really cool to see this progress. And I know you really, you know, you talk about all these stepping stones. Uh, I want to jump over to your book real quick because we're, we're starting to dig into, okay, what can we expect from you? Um, you know, tell us about your book a little bit. What can we, what can readers expect from your book? So I think people can expect, even though, you know, if you haven't worked at the CIA and you haven't worked at the FBI, I think you can actually expect to relate to me. I don't think that I try to come off as perfect. You know,

I am imperfect and I have struggles. I had frustrations. I'm not infallible. I do think what it does is it does provide a very interesting look into the CIA because I was there at a unique time. I was there before September 11th. And a lot of books are written about people who were in the counter terrorism center after September 11th. And it's not to knock those. It's just an interesting time to be there before, during, and after. I think also, which doesn't have to do with the substance necessarily, but parts of the book are redacted. I did have to go through the CIA's vetting process. So what you will see or read is an example is of five full rewrites of my book

to get it just to the point that you see it. It wasn't even legible when I first got it back. And then I think also readers would get a kind of unique look into the differences between intelligence gathering and law enforcement. I think that it kind of provides a unique perspective on that. And I detail a little bit the hunt for bin Laden, but I wouldn't say that that's sort of like the focus necessarily of the book. We talk about the Iraq war and Operation Enduring Freedom as well. So I think that's what readers would probably expect. It reads very much like a narrative. So it's going to read a little different than some of

the other books that are out there. Awesome. You know, the historical aspects of this that really shape how our country is today, I think is really important to a lot of people. And, you know, you mentioned a lot of key life moments for us. Any key takeaways in the book that you wanted people to walk away with? Anything where people were like, wow, thank you. I mean, did you have, I want to see if I can absolutely get these two or three messages across to people. Is there anything that stood out to you? Sure. There's a couple of things that I wanted to get out. And these are things I bring into my teaching as well. I think the first one is that my book, it doesn't have an agenda. It's very apolitical. And that was really important to me because I see things from multiple perspectives. And I talk about the good of administrations and the bad of administrations, but it's all grounded in my factual experience of those. I don't have some kind of an axe to grind

politically. So that was really important to me because I think sometimes you lose people, you lose readers when you don't do that. I think I want people to understand what it was like to be a female, a young female in those organizations and how to achieve jobs in those organizations if that's what they want. Awesome. Well, I definitely know my daughter Maggie is getting a copy of this book. Those are really important things and very cool. I love your humility, Tracy. I mean, you have a ton of humility. You look at things for what

they are instead of throwing opinions at them and judgment. And I, I love just the objectivity that, you know, you can look at from every angle here. So, you know, and now we're obviously talking about some personal characteristics. What, how would you describe yourself in your personal characteristics where that CIA recruiter is looking at this person going, I love this. And then the FBI recruiters, I mean, let's face it, neither of these organizations are easy to get into. It's just, you know, you got to be the cream of the crop in order to get into these. And they look for very, very special people that they can trust and believe in and that trust and believe in themselves.

So, I mean, what characteristics do you see that you brought forth that they found attractive to try and bring into their organization? So that's a really good question. And thank you for saying, you know, what you said before. It's really important to me to be that way. I would say it's interesting because I do get this question. I get this a lot from my college students, right, and from high school students. And people seem to want sort of this formula, right, this box that they can check of if I major in this and learn this and do this, then I will get this job at the CIA or the FBI.

And what I've come to find out just in reflecting on my skills, my students who have gone into these careers, those kinds of things, it's actually really about your soft skills. Or things like empathy are incredibly important. Because if you think about it, I was recruiting people to spy on their own countries. They could die. You know, and if they don't think that I have empathy for them and ability to connect to them, they're not going to want to spy for their country and possibly die.

I think another thing is being collaborative, right? Being able to have, I'd say, a 360 view, kind of like what you said before of things, not bringing in your own preconceived notions. It's okay to have an opinion, but you don't want to get sort of blinded by your opinion. And I realized that that was a very critical thing that they were looking for. Also, I think sort of your problem-solving skills and your listening skills. Because half of it, you know, if I'm interviewing a terrorist or recruiting an asset, I have to listen to them. And if I'm not going to listen, then that also is extremely problematic. So I don't think sometimes we focus on developing, particularly young folks, soft skills as much

as I think we probably need to, because that's really critical in intelligence gathering. I think that those are some of the things that help me get the job. That's an incredible point and really important point for everybody to listen to. You might call part of it parenting. That's very true. I didn't think about it that way. I have three college students myself. You're 100% correct. What are we doing to develop the soft skills in our, you know, the next generation of professional leaders? Because they are coming up quick on this. I mean, I remember when my kids couldn't drive and now they're all in college. And I mean, my son just got on an airplane to go off to military training someplace. You look at it and you go, did I do good enough? Or did I, did I put forth the effort? And that leads me to my

next question of what did you have before? You know, you're okay. You're walking around the USC campus as a Delta Gamma, you know, going to your sorority meetings and hanging out with your sisters and things like that. And then next thing you know, you know, you're in Iraq and Afghanistan and stuff like that, you know, telling people to blow stuff up or go capture people or interrogating people or something like that. What did you have from college or growing up in, in, in college? And then what do you think you really honed while you're at the CIA? So that's very good question. Um, I think what I've always had is curiosity. That's something I think I've had my whole life, whether it was parents that in me or not, I've, I've just always been like a curious person. I've also strangely been,, and this is going to sound strange, so let me give you an example.

I don't just look at something as automatically bad. For example, when I was growing up, right, and I think I mentioned that I was Jewish, I didn't see the other side as bad. I saw that as, well, like, let's learn more about this problem. Why is this? Where did this come from? And that's probably some of that curiosity, I think, that kind of came into play. I've also been an incredibly fast judge reader of people. And I've always had really good judgment. I just, I guess that's parenting for you as well. I've just kind of always had that. But I think what I honed at the agency that I didn't come to the agency with a whole lot of, and part of that is unpacking stuff from childhood, was definitely confidence and, you know,

believing in myself a bit more. You know, people there, you don't get these pats on the back. That's not what I needed. It was more about being able to make decisions on my own, being able to make calls on my own, those kinds of things. I definitely honed my confidence, I think a little bit more. All right, I'm gonna go ahead and pause the conversation right there. Now listen, if you're not subscribed to Start With A Win, go ahead and subscribe. iTunes, Spotify, wherever you listen to your podcasts, subscribe so that you get notified when part two comes out next week.