StarTalk Radio - Cosmic Queries – Cicada Invasion! With Jessica Ware

Episode Date: April 26, 2021

Are you ready for the cicada invasion? In this episode, Neil deGrasse Tyson and co-host Negin Farsad sit down with entomologist Jessica Ware to answer your questions about the millions of cicadas emerging this summer after 17 years underground. NOTE: StarTalk+ Patrons can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/show/cosmic-queries-cicada-invasion-with-jessica-ware/ Thanks to our Patrons Kaz Barnes, Philippe Dewindt, M. Tristan Moody, Dan Hadfield, Wavezzz, Tony Le, Kyle Marston, Colten Judd, Rafael Ignacio Aguilar Carrillo, Caleb Martin for supporting us this week. Photo Credit: Katja Schulz from Washington, D. C., USA, CC BY 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson here, your personal astrophysicist. And for this edition, it's Cosmic Queries, which we are titling, The Cicadas Are Coming! Attack of the Cicadas. I don't know what we're going to title it, but it's about cicadas. Nagin, is that you laughing? My co-host, Nagin Farsad. Welcome back to StarTalk, Nagin. Hi, Neil. So great to be here.

Excellent. You're a host of the podcast, Fake the Nation, which I was a guest on that one time. I so enjoyed that. And you haven't invited me back ever since. So I enjoyed it. Apparently you didn't. All right. Just so you know, you wrote a book that has my favorite title of any book ever. It's called How to Make White People Laugh. That's just out of control, girl. So this is advice for people of color to make. What are you, what are you? So this is advice for people of color to make white people, is that what that is?

It turns out, Neil, throughout writing the book, I found out that what makes white people laugh is what makes everybody laugh. Oh, okay. There it is. It has a kumbaya message to it, okay? It doesn't land on... But there's a lot of... It's kumbaya with a lot of fart jokes. Okay. Let's put it that way.

All right. So I'm pretty sure you don't have expertise in this, and I definitely don't. And just insects in general are such a fascinating part of the tree of life. And I have a new colleague at the American Museum of Natural History. Been there just barely a year. And it's Dr. Jessica Ware. Jessica, welcome to Star Talk. Thanks for having me on the show. You're an evolutionary biologist,

so that's sort of your base landscape on which you then have become an entomologist. So why don't we just call you a bugologist? What is the Latin root there that is saying that you study bugs? Well, I've actually been called a bugologist. I've been called an insectologist before, but entomologist is the study of all insects. Not all insects are bugs. All bugs are insects, but not all insects are bugs. It's one of those things. So class insect there has many orders and only one of the orders. Wait, wait, wait, excuse me.

If it bugs me, I'm calling it a bug, okay? Don't tell me that something that's... Classy people. I'm not. Classy people call bugs, bugs, and insects, insects. So if you want to impress people in your life, in your personal life, then you say, oh, well, actually,

what bug are an insect? And people will think that you're very classy because you know the distinction between Hemiptera in your life, in your personal life, then you say, oh, well, actually, a bug or an insect? And people will think that you're very classy because you know the distinction between Hanifra and the other orders. I promise you, it's a hit. It is a probable hit at a party. All right, all right. Oh, Jessica, you live in such a weird world

if that's the distinction between people thinking you're classy or not. No, she runs around saying, there are two kinds of people in the world. So you are a tenured curator of invertebrate zoology at the American Museum of Natural History right here in New York City. So a fellow scientist of mine

is delighted to have you in the house. Now your research, of course, focuses on insects. You have a specialty in dragonflies. Ooh. You know, nobody doesn't love just looking at a dragonfly. We'll get to cicadas in a moment. But just, did you grow up thinking, I want to study dragonflies? Is that how that happened?

Well, no, definitely not. I didn't know that people did that for a job. In fact, I didn't know that entomology was a job, really. I thought maybe I would go and work at a bank or something like that when I got a job in Montana. I would say, what do you want to do? And I'd say, a cab driver, because you get to meet people. And she was mortified. And then when I started taking a bird of its zoology classes, it turns out almost all of the classes insects because almost all life on earth are insects. And so then that's when I got kind of turned on to entomology. And then I was really lucky that I got to work on the coolest of all of the insects, which are the dragonflies. It is definitely the coolest. Let me not say it's cool.

Let me just say it's badass. And it knows it, right? There it is. It's got those wings and it's got that needle shape. And it flies and then it's cool. Let me just say it's badass. And it knows it, right? There it is. It's got those wings and it's got that needle shape. And it flies and then it just stops. Let me look around for a minute. And then it just keeps, and it's like, what are you thinking, dude? They're like lions.

Like lions in the sky, really. I mean, they're like voracious predators. They can do intercept predation where they can go to where their prey is going to be in 10 seconds rather than like a dummy going where the prey is right now. I mean, like a lion would do. And I mean, that's pretty impressive. Oh, okay. So if you come back, can we do a whole show on just dragonflies? Because I've seen fossil remains of dragonflies that look like birds. And I want to get to the bottom of that. Why did they get little? How did they get big in the first place?

So if you come back for that, because I really want to get straight to the cicadas. All right, let's go straight to the cicadas. You're our insect person in the house. So what's about to happen, not to the world perhaps, but just into the Northeast United States in this year, 2021? Don't we have enough problems, Jessica? Well, I mean, this is the solution. This is not the problem. This is the solution to having a bad year is that there's these periodical cicadas that are coming out to bring us some enthusiasm, to bring us some pep to our day. We have these.

Says the bug person. Says the bug person. This is being nice time for, for the bug people and the cicadas. Okay. Just let's. It's a gift. We had a really bad year in 2020.

The gift that we get, the response, the positive pep for 2021 is that we have this brood, brood 10, which is comprised of three different species of cicadas that are going to emerge. And we'll get to hear them and see them. We'll get to eat them if we want to. I mean, this year is going to be pretty rad just because of the fact that we have these periodical cicadas that are going to be emerging. It's kind of remarkable. I was going to say, if this is a gift, I really don't want to know what you get people for Christmas. Just like, go ahead and take me off the list. When I think of periodicals, I think of something that's daily or weekly or monthly or even

annually, but such is not the case with these cicadas. So what's going on there? How long, what do you mean by periodic when you use that word with them? So these periodical cicadas are called that because they actually have a juvenile stage and an adult stage. And the juvenile stage lives underground for either 13 years or 17 years, and they emerge as adults periodically every 17 years or every 13 years. Like a pretty bad newspaper subscription if it was every 17 years, I would argue. Yes, correct. Unless it's reporting on continental drift, right?

That was a solid joke, Neil. Thank you for laughing at that one, Nagin. I enjoyed it. No, that was good. So which species is coming out this season? Is it the 13-year or the 17-year? We have 17-year cicadas that are coming out. And there's three different species in this one genus that are going to be coming out that makes up this brood, brood 10.

Because the periodical cicadas are labeled different broods, but they were just named by these, you know, these guys in the 1800s that were kind of documenting what was going on. And they gave Roman numerals to the different kind of emergences of these, you know, cicadas. And so Brood X kind of is, you know, an arbitrary name in some ways. It doesn't necessarily mean that nine is next door or 11 is next door well so this brood is not the the cycling of them it's not like the last time they came out it was brood nine no yeah so the numbers um don't necessarily make immediate sense

um when you get the years when they came out and where they came out you like that i love that making what a scientist says this won't make immediate sense to out. You like that? I love that, Nikki. But a scientist says, this won't make immediate sense to you. It's like, that's very honest. I love that. You can stare at the table for a while. Blue 10 is on a 17-year cycle. What is that? How is that not reasonable?

It makes complete sense. And so why aren't there also predators of these cicadas that would come out in that 17-year cycle and eat them? They're very high in protein, I understand. Well, I mean, there are predators that eat them. The strategy we think is that they're doing kind of like a satiation strategy where they come out in this giant, you know, emergence. And birds and frogs and your dogs and your cats and humans and, you know, lots of things are going to be feasting on them. And hopefully everybody around you gets eaten and you don't, and you can find a mate, reproduce, and then die. That's kind of the satiation strategy

that we think natural selection has acted on, you know, over millions of years. Yeah, but Jessica, if that's the best you can hope for, I just hope I'm not eaten. What kind of a life is that? Well, I mean, I think that's probably what most insects are thinking. Not that they actually think. But if I was to anthropomorphize an insect, I would imagine, you know, they have these jobs to do as an adult, right? They have to find a mate. They have to disperse.

They have to lay their eggs. And then they die. And if a bird or a fish or a frog jumps up and catches you, your net fitness is zero if you're dead. This is in survival of the fittest. That's what you mean, the net fitness. Yeah. Now you describe these as a genus. Is that right? Yep. Okay. So a genus, just remind me, so we are Homo sapiens. So for us, of those two words, the Homo is the genus and the sapiens is the species. So in this genus of cicadas, you have

species beneath that, correct? In the taxonomy? Yeah. I always remember it. King Philip came over for good sandwiches for the classification. Kingdom, phylum. Kingdom, phylum, class over order. Order, sure, sure. No, no, no. Why did I say King Philip came to order sandwiches and then use the same word? Someone clever should get in there and fix that. Okay, so kingdom, violent.

Cicada sandwiches. This is so weird. I'm watching two of the smartest people in the world figure out this order right now. Okay, wait, wait, wait. So King Philip came over to eat sandwiches. Did I leave it? For family.

Family is for. King Philip came over. For. For. Family. Good. Genus. Sandwiches.

Species. Species. So kingdom, phylum, class, order, genus, species. Yeah. These are all good Scrabble words, I would argue. Wow. Okay. All right.

Good. On it. I'll be an entomologist yet, okay? And I'll start liking them. So we've got- I was fitsing through that for the record.

Okay. So, Nagin, we've got cosmic queries from our Patreon members. Yes. So what do you have? I don't want to spoil their fun.

Let's start with Violetta. This is Violetta, 12 and a half year old astrophysicist and mega StarTalk and mega Nagin fan. I like to start off the show with a compliment to me. Violetta's question is, how are cicadas such amazing time keepers? What kind of hocus pocus is this and what can it teach us about the concept of

time itself and how we measure and study time yeah jessica it's sorcery clearly they're they're like um witches and warlocks for for cicadas what's going on down there that's a very good question bieletta so kudos for that um definitely i think that i mean the timing of when they emerge they're using temperature as a cue so when the ground reaches 64 degrees uh fahrenheit then they know that it's time to emerge. But they have these kind of regimented moltings. So there are two types of insects, there's insects that have complete metamorphosis, which are things like, you know, an egg that

becomes a caterpillar, then there's a pupa, and then there's the butterfly. That butterfly has undergone a complete and total internal reorganization before emerging as a butterfly. Those insects are called holometabola, and they're the insects that have complete metamorphosis. The other insects are the non-holometabolous insects. These are insects that have incomplete metamorphosis, of which cicadas are one. So they instead have juveniles that usually look a lot like the adults. They don't look like the adults in cicadas, but usually they look very similar to the adults. Grasshopper, this is a small grasshopper, they get slightly larger as it goes through these molts. Molting is a period where they actually shed their skin and then go

to what's called a larger instar, which are the stages of development. So cicadas, when they're underground, the juveniles, they actually, you know, when the egg hatches, the first instar actually drops down into the soil and kind of nestles down into their little pocket where they're going to start feeding on the plant roots. But then every certain amount of time, then they go through a molt. And then there's another long period of time. And then they go through a molt. And these are kind of like jumping ahead in their growth stages. And so the timing of those instars are kind of really precise and they're based on like there's a hormonal

cascade that kind of controls the timing of those those instars and then after the last one when the temperature reaches 64 it's go time and then they crawl up and then it's go time and then it's you know their wings uh and the adult wing winged cicada is what you see. Megan, look at her smiling as she describes the invasion. She's totally getting into this. Oh my God, this is creepy. So if the ground has to be 65 degrees, that means we will see the cicada invasion

as they rise up and become our overlords. This will happen at southern latitudes sooner than in northern latitudes, we have to presume here. Is that correct? Yeah, absolutely. So at 64 degrees is a pretty, you know, magic number. And some individuals, you know, the timing is pretty great, right? But when you're talking about 17 years, you know, some might come out a couple of days early, some might come out a couple of days late

because there's going to be millions of them emerging. So we got to cut them some slack a little bit with their clock. No, I guess what I'm asking, so if we're going to see this invasion in the Northeast United States, as I understand it, they'll show up in like Virginia first. And then because the more southerly latitudes

will reach those temperatures before Maine will or before New Hampshire will. Isn't that correct? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right, Nagin, give me another question.

And also just, are they friendly? Like, is this going to be a good hang? Or like, I grew up in the desert, so we didn't have this. Like, what happens? Like, is it going to be cute and fun? so we didn't have this. Like what happens? Like, is it going to be cute and fun? Are we going out to brunch with the cicadas or is it just like awful? I don't know. Yeah, it definitely would say it's a good hang. I mean, you want a concert, you got it because they're going to be singing and they're going to be making noise. You want to eat brunch? They're brunch, right? I mean, they are going to be on the menu.

So they're friendly in that they are plant feeders. They feed on xylem when they're juveniles. But as adults- Xylem would be like what? Xylem is what? Like the juices or the plant juices inside of the tree. Okay. Interesting. You guys got a word for that. That's cool. Yeah. Xylem, it's an X word, which is another good Scrabble. Love X words. Yeah, yeah.

We will not play Scrabble with you. We just established that fact. I'm talking of a big game, but I'm actually terrible at Scrabble. But it's enthusiasm that counts, I think, rather than success. But yeah, so they emerge. Their goal is to find a mate, to lay those eggs,

and then they die. They're here for a good time, not a long time, right? So they're just going to do their business, and then they dead. And we just got to wait for the eggs to hatch. Sweep them out, man. Nagin, we got to go to the next segment. So, but you have, you've got more questions lined up. We're going to find out. Oh my God, so many questions. Yeah, we've got so many. We're going to find out

what kind of damage the cicadas will actually do to us. Will they destroy civilization as we know it? And we'll not give you the answer to that until we return.

On StarTalk, Cosmic Query Hey I'm Roy Hill Percival and I support StarTalk on Patreon. Bringing the universe down to earth this is StarTalk with Neil deGrasse Tyson Neil deGrasse Tyson. We're back.

StarTalk Cosmic Queries. Attack of the cicadas. I've got one of the world's experts on insects and who's all-knowing about cicadas here, a friend and colleague of mine from the American Museum of Natural History, Dr. Jessica Ware. Jessica, welcome to StarTalk. And, of course, Nagin Farsad. It's always great having you here as my co-host. And you've got questions for Jessica.

Bring them on. Yes. Okay, so Woody asks, what are the positive consequences of a locust plague feeding the birds is one thing, but is it an essential part of the ecosystem? How do you think the changing climate will affect insect plagues in the near and far future? Wow. And are you even calling this a plague, Jessica? I mean, it sounds very biblical, you know, the frogs, the locusts, the cicadas. the frogs, the locusts, the cicadas. So you see no downside to this, it seems like, because you spent this entire interview smiling ear to ear.

I wouldn't call it a plague. I mean, the beauty of it, yes, they're great bird food, but they're food for lots of different things, lots of mammals and other organisms. And then I've talked, I've said many times they die, right? And as they die, all of the, they decompose and all that nutrition goes into the soil. The very trees they were sucking on, you know, sometimes for that 17 year period. So, you know, nutrition for the, for the trees and for the, the kind of soil community, as well as food for, for animals. I mean, that seems like a pretty good win. I mentioned I like the song. The song is the music for us. That's another plus.

They're beautiful. They're pretty. You like earrings? You could have earrings in spades because those cicada wings make really nice earrings. Now you're getting creepy. Wait, Jessica, stop. No, it's Jessica. Here's your Christmas present.

Here's your present. We're going to stop. No, it's Jessica. Here's your Christmas present. Here's your present. Okay, okay. We're going to stop. The interview's over. Right now. Jessica, stop. Jessica is off the rails, ladies and gentlemen. Is what you're telling me that you don't make insect jewelry?

Jessica, you got to get out more. Jessica, we need to do an intervention. Jessica, we need to do an intervention. Nagim, we'll do an intervention, all right? I mean, this is like the silence of the Lamb's movie poster suddenly, you know? I mean, the entomologists in that movie seemed a bit intense. I might not be, you know, really increasing the rep of entomologists with this interview. But they are pretty. They're pretty. Come on.

Give me that. Okay, so let me ask this. They don't eat our crops or anything and disrupt our food chain? They do not. So we really don't... So that way they're not locusts, because locusts that eat your crops, you can justifiably call that a plague, a blight on your

own ecosystem. Okay, so they're harmless is what you're saying. They're harmless. And I mean, they've been doing this for what researchers seem to estimate around 500,000 years. So they've been doing this long before we were here. And they'll continue probably to do this. Chris Simon at the University of Connecticut has done a lot of work on this particular group of cicadas. And I mean, maybe for around 4 million years or so, there have been cicadas because there are annual cicadas that come out every year. But then around 500,000 years ago, there was a switch to having this periodical genus and species.

And then like the First Nations native people that lived in this part of New Jersey, the Lenape, they had a separate word for the annual cicadas and for the periodical cicadas. And they were known to eat cicadas. It's been going on for a long time. And we're just lucky enough that we get to still keep witnessing it. So with climate change, it's possible that the timing of their emergence might change. But hopefully this kind of neat phenomenon doesn't change. Got it. And if climate change with things get warmer,

it'll reach 65 degrees earlier in the year. That's another thing that could fool birds or whoever who's expecting them on May 3rd, you know, whatever is their clock time that they're working on. Nagin, keep it coming. Okay, so Cameron Bishop asks, how do they sustain themselves

during that 17-year period where they're underground? And what impact can we expect them to have on the local ecology and wildlife? The order Hemiptera, to which they belong, one of the- What's the name of that order again? Say that order. Just say that again.

Hemiptera. Hemiptera. Hemiptera. Halfwing. It stands for halfwing, I guess, because they have an interesting aspect to their wing morphology. But anyways, they all have these sucking mouth parts. And cicadas use those sucking mouth parts to kind of tap into the roots of trees. And then they can suck up this xylem, this tree fluid. And so that's what, that's how they're sustaining themselves for those 17 years is just kind of drinking.

Imagine what you will for these poor cicadas and their little excavation, drinking lots and lots of liquid, what comes in must come out. And so they actually, you know, it's a very sweet, sticky substance that then they have to breathe into their little excavation and they sit there bathed in their own kind of liquid-gory poop. That's their life for 17 years. That's what they do. That's who they be. And let's make jewelry out of that.

Yes, of course. Okay. Not juveniles. Oh, sorry. Just the adults. By the way, is the title of the episode Liquid Sugary Poop, maybe? I'm just throwing that out there. It's a good band name. If there's any punk rockers out there, that name hasn't been taken yet.

Liquid Sugary Poop. Yeah. I think that ship sailed with the punk rock era. I don't know. I don't know. So, Nagin, give me some more. These are good. Okay.

So, listen, Jessica, you may feel a little defensive about this next question, but I promise you Ashlyn just wants to get to the science of it. Her question is, what do cicadas do? To my knowledge, all animals fit into their own ecological career. Even wasps pollinate. Do cicadas have an important ecological purpose, or are they just here to fill my nights of staring at the stars with music?

Oh. Oh, that's lovely. It ended nicely. It started with a little bit of an accusation. With the bug part of it. I see what she did there. Really lovely. Yeah, I appreciate that. Like all

organisms, they have this goal of growth, maintenance, reproduction, dispersal, mating, death. That's what they do, right? Their goal is to get their genes into the next generation. But even wasps that pollinate, it's not like they're doing it because they want to pollinate. They're just kind of going about those other goals, right? Which is growth, maintenance, reproduction, and then eventually they die. They're passing their genes on to the next generation.

So cicadas, they're a food source. So they're a food source to many things, including, you know, there's pathogens that eat them, there's birds that eat them, there's mammals that eat them, there's reptiles that eat them, humans that eat them. So, I mean, in terms of something that they could put in towards the community, they provide nutrition in, you know, anything that dies can, you know, decompose and provide nutrition. Wait, Jessica, I'm not buying it, because there are birds that are born, live out their lives, and die in between cicada invasions. So, they would never know the cicadas. So So you're going to say it's food for animals that they get to eat once every 17 years.

Well, if that's the only time I ate, I'd be dead. So clearly it's extra food for them. So let me ask, is the extra food have an impact on the ecosystem? Yeah, I mean, so that's a good point. So it's not that there's, you know, a bird that only eats periodical cicadas and it goes between these long stretches of not eating. Certainly not. But I mean, yeah, the extra food is a boon of energy, you know, that's every 17 years. But the broods are staggered too, we have to remember. So, you know, there's a

brood that's coming out this year, there'll be a brood that's coming out in two years and so on. So every few years, there's going to be these emergencies. They're not always the same size because some broods are bigger than others. And as you said, there are some places where there are cicadas every year. I think in the Far East, for example, Japan, I heard has cicadas and Korea, cicadas every year. Is that correct? Yeah, we do too. I mean, even here in Dirty Jerries, we've got annual cicadas in Korea, cicadas every year. Is that correct? Yeah, we do too. I mean, even here in Dirty Jersey, we've got annual cicadas that come out. And you are coming to us from New Jersey right now. Yes, I am.

Because you were formerly on the faculty at Rutgers and then we stole you from Rutgers University in New Brunswick. They'll get some cicadas emerging for sure. Actually, you know what, Neil? When I was a graduate student, I did my PhD at Rutgers in New Brunswick and I had just moved here from Canada and they were talking, my graduate students that were in the lab were talking about these periodical

cicadas that were coming out and they were going to drive over and see them in Princeton. And I had no idea what they were talking about because there's a couple that come up in Southern Ontario, but not where I lived in Canada. And I had no idea. So it's kind of blows my mind that the last time Brood 10, which is the one we're talking about, came out. I was at that time in your life. Yeah, first year grad student. And now look, so much has happened since then. My goodness. We used to have MySpace accounts during the last Brood 10. You know? It was a simpler time. There was no YouTube even, right? YouTube had been invented.

Right. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So what more do you have in the game? We're on Cosmic Queries mode here. So this question sounds like it comes from Elon Musk,

but it actually comes from Michael Borger, who asked, could cicadas be used as a viable protein source for a Martian colony? And would they taste like chicken? Oh, that's a good question. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Nikki, we have to approach this gingerly.

Have you eaten cicadas before? Why, yes, Neil, I have. I'm not afraid to say. What do they taste like? Oh, my gosh. What do they taste like? Do they gosh. What do they taste like? Do they taste like chicken? Sugary liquid poop.

I definitely do not think they tasted like chicken. The way I had them prepared lovingly, you know, sauteed in a pan and really taken care of were just regular annual cicadas. And they tasted very nutty. And they tasted delicious. Periodical cicadas I had, I didn't, they weren't prepared in a very glamorous way.

Yeah, it's the foie gras versus. But this year, so help me, I am going to make a really good feast with them. They're very nutty. If you are allergic to crustaceans, you know, it's recommended that you should check before you start eating them. Just because some people who have crustacean allergies also can have allergies when they eat insects. But it's a great source of protein. So if you're going to Mars, get some insects on the menu, which is called entomophagy.

That's the eating of insects. And it's a really good- Entomophagy. Entomophagy. That's just, I eat insects. That's all that means. Is that right? Yeah.

I don't know that I would make cicadas as my main food source, probably. If I was trying to grow things quickly, I would grow mealworms or beetle larvae. Something that you could like kind of grow very quickly and have a lot of food for your Martian colonists. Recipes available. It seems to me if we have the technology to send humans to Mars to colonize it, then we could send regular food. I'm thinking, I'm just thinking, how do you have this whole modern spaceship? Oh, eat your cicadas. I'm thinking, no, no, no. If you can do this, give me the ribeye, give me the lasagna,

give me whatever. So that's how I'm thinking. I don't know. Okay. Not to go into a whole entomophagy thing, but technically you can make a pretty great lasagna with cicadas in it, right? I mean, as far as your gym supplement, the protein, bro. McGee, rescue this, please. McGee.

Oh, I just, I don't know. Do you buy them from Trader Joe's? Like, how do you even? I can't. No, I think let's all, I'm going to make you a nice lasagna, Neil. We're going to make this happen.

Here's what I'll do. Jessica, I will promise you that I will eat at least one, at most three cicadas if I prepare it in a pan with some oil sort of pan fried i will do that for you photos or it didn't happen yes it didn't happen i would i would say take the wings off because the wings are not the most fun part to eat nikki she even knows this about it

she removes the wings so she can make earrings, Neil. We've already established that. You don't eat them. You make them into jewelry. I will do that for you, okay? As my cherished colleague, I will do that for you, and I will give her a full report. And you're right, Nagin. It's got to be TikTok or nothing, you know.

TikTok or nothing. And I just want to say, Neil, I will, I will, I will join in this challenge by supporting you and watching the TikTok. That is so sweet of you, Nikki. No, thank you.

I'm here for the show. All right, let's get another, get some more questions in. Well, Philip DeWint asks, why is it a 17-year cycle and not a 15-year cycle or a 20-year cycle?

God, I have the same question. And plus 13 and 17 are both prime numbers mathematically. Is anything to that? Yeah, I think that they do think that the fact that it's a prime number is significant. And they do think that the 13 years actually were originally 17 years, but then started coming out early. And we tend to see 13-year emergencies more common. The broods that are 13 years are more common in southern states than they are in northern states. Why 17? Why 15? Why 19?

I don't know the answer to that. I mean, Chris Simon, like I said, the Green Gene Kritsky, there are a few people that have focused their whole life on trying to figure out why these things are periodical. But I don't know if they know the answer of why 17 and not 15 and why 17 and not 19. And to follow up an earlier question, just to flesh it out a little more, if we agree and it's expected that climate change, if the planet gets warmed, might have the cicadas emerge from the ground sooner in the season because the ground is warmer earlier. But do you foresee climate change affecting their cycle? Well, I think we've already seen a little taste of it or what some scientists think that maybe it was a little taste of it because some of Bruton actually emerged early. Not a lot of them, but some of them emerged early. I think it was 2018. So, And they thought that perhaps

that could have been influenced by climate change, that could have changed the kind of developmental cycles. Like I said, they go through these molts to instars and it's kind of controlled with these kind of biochemical cascades. And then they emerged early. You lose the benefit of that satiation strategy if it's a few scragglers that are emerging

rather than millions and millions of individuals. Yeah, okay. All a few scragglers that are emerging rather than millions and millions of individuals. Yeah, yeah, okay. All right. That's what that looks like. Nagin, give me one more question before we end this segment. Okay.

Eric Lineman asks, are there any other types of bugs besides cicadas that hibernate for such long periods of time? And how is the hibernation useful? Why do they hibernate in the first place?

At all. And we don't have time to answer that. See what I did there? We got to come back after the break. When we come back, we'll find out is this, and are we allowed to even call it hibernation? Why, you know, why is that useful at all to anybody? And I want to know the answer to that too, when we return, StarTalk Cosmic Queries. a Patreon shout out to the following Patreon patrons. Kaz Barnes, Philip Dwent, and M. Tristan Moody. Hey guys, thank you for your

support. Without you, we couldn't make this show what it is. And for anybody else listening who would like their name mentioned on a Patreon shout out, please go to patreon.com slash StarTalkRadio and support us. We're back. Star Talk Cosmic Theory, the Cicada

Edition. Just before the Cicada invasion, I've got Nagin Farsad, my co-host. Nagin, you're on social media as just your name, Nagin Farsad? Nagin Farsad. N-E-G-I-N-F-A-R-S-A-D. That's right.

And can I log roll really quick that I'm also in the new Adult Swim show Bird Girl on the Cartoon Network, so check that out on Sunday nights. Whoa. You mean your voices? Yes, my voice. My face is a green mind taker.

Were you tuned or is it just a voice for something else that doesn't look like you? All right. Well, look for that. Very good. Very good. And Jessica, what cartoon are you in? I feel like there's not like a huge demand for insect cartoons, although there should be. There should be for sure because it's a lot of fertile material down there.

So, Jessica, what are your social media handles? You can find me on Twitter at Jessica L. Ware Lab or on Instagram. You appended the word lab after ware. Jessica Ware Lab? Yeah, Jessica L. Ware Lab. And it's because there's this amazing singer whose name is also Jessica Ware. So if you Google Jessica Ware, you'll get this British singer who sings soulful ballads and you won't get your cicada content that you want or your dragonfly content. So if you want that dragonfly content, then it's Jessica L Ware lab.

Got to get the insect content. Okay. And on Instagram, it's what? Jessica Lee Ware 42. Lee, L-E-E? Mm-hmm. Good. All right. Excellent. So before we get back to the questions, Jessica, how many cicadas can we expect? There's going to be millions, about, you know, one and a half million cicadas per acre. Per acre? No, no, no, no.

Did you just, what, what? No. It's a good number. No. It'll be enough. Per acre? Yeah. So this is the deal.

There's millions and millions of them. And in the places where they're going to be emerging, you should expect that you could take a shovel and be able to shovel some of them out. I won't be able to walk down the street without smashing hundreds of them not on purpose. Well, I mean, maybe not in Manhattan, but certainly if you were to go to some of the places

where they're going to be out, yeah, you're going to see them. And they fly. Does that mean they'll get in your, I mean, how much do they fly versus how much are they walking around on the ground? Well, I mean, again, their goals are just to find a mate. So they're going to be, you mostly will hear them. Stop defending them this way. Stop giving them.

No, I'm tired of hearing you say, they're just trying to make it. Just get straight to the answer here. But you'll see them maybe on the bark of trees. You'll see them and you'll hear them in the canopy. But you're not going to really see them flying around. It's not like there'll be clouds of them or anything like that. They'll mostly be in and amongst the canopy. Sometimes you'll see them on the grass. If you're walking through a dewy meadow, you might see

some in the grass, but it'll mostly be on the barks of trees and in trees. And the ones that are in Manhattan, are they dressed better? Are they strikers? Are they real type A cicadas? They do. They go from, they really like to go up and down looking

for sushi restaurants. I knew it. And mostly just walking. It's the other diet. Yeah, that's right. They buy sushi as a juvenile and then sushi as an adult. All right. Excellent. Let's get back to our questions. Nagin, you're the keeper of the questions there. Bring them on.

Well, before we left, we asked from Eric Lineman, are there any other types of bugs besides cicadas that hibernate for such a long period of time? How is this hibernation useful and why do they hibernate in the first place? I love it. Yeah, Jessica. Well, it's a good question, but I would say that what cicadas

are doing is probably not hibernation, right? Because in the underground, we're not watching them, right? They're underground, but they're actually, you know, not in a hibernation state. They're not in torpor. They're basically drinking, pooping, moving, molting, you know, for that whole 17 period. But there are other insects certainly that have long, it's kind of like their generation time is kind of long is what we would say. and there are other insects that have long generation time uh not that i planted that question just to start talking about dragonflies again but dragonflies have juvenile stages that are in fresh water

and some of them are in fresh water for you know five years before emerging as an adult and which is a pretty good amount of time uh termites, you know, there are some termite queens that can live for 10, 12, 13 years. Again, they're not hibernating. They just have these long kind of lifespans. So dragonflies and damselflies can also be frozen in solid ice, which is pretty remarkable. You're calling it hibernation, but in the pandemic era, I would just call that self-quarantining for 17 years.

That's what they're doing down there. Wait, wait. So, Jessica, I have a philosophical question. And maybe I think it's deeper than it actually is. So let me just quickly ask you, how long does the cicada live after it emerges from the ground? Four to six weeks. Okay. So its life cycle is 17 years plus four to six weeks,

which means it's not hibernating, waiting to do something else in its life. That is its life. Yeah, that is deep. That's deep. I mean, what is life, right? What is life? Right, that is its life.

Sucking on plant roots and peeing and pooping, that is its life. And then its death throw is sunlight and people screaming as they run away from them, except for Jessica, who wants to make jewelry out of them, and then they die. Yeah. I mean, much like, so much like the same is true for these dragonflies that are five years in fresh water. They come out, it's one hot summer. You know, that's what these cicadas have.

They've got this really short window to find a mate, get that job done of passing on their genes. But that's like a bookend or a footnote. Right, right. Just a footnote to the whole life that they're leading. Man. Yeah. Even though that's probably the most important part they do. You really have to

love the process if you're a cicada. You can't be destination-oriented. Yes, that's correct. It's a marathon, not a sprint. It's a marathon, not a sprint. You really have to love the process. Love the journey. Alright, keep them coming, Nick Gane. Alright, we have

from Bobby Reagan, we have a question that kind of merges both of your interests. He asks, can anything like their hibernation be recreated on a human scale for deep space travel? Wow. Wow. Well, again, they're not hibernating. So could we go into deep space and drink syrupy, sugary drinks

and just poop constantly? Yeah, we could do that. I mean, I could do that. I don't think that would be hard to do. We would have to change nothing. I would have to change almost nothing about my day-to-day life. I would just be doing it in space. Wait, wait, Jessica, I think a way to do this, I think the way to do this is you prolong the time we are infants in a long space journey. Because why waste time in space as an adult when you want to have the fully developed adult brain for when you land and you want to investigate? So the infant would be just pooping and sucking, right? Yeah. So you increase that period of time in the human developmental cycle to be 17, 20 years. And then you just put them in there and they just poop and pee and that's it.

And then towards the end, you bring them out and then they grow into adults. How about that? Wow. Neil, basically you're saying that my baby has been prepping for space travel this whole time. And I had no idea. I've got this figured out. How old is your baby again? She's two.

So she's more of a toddler. Yeah, not a toddler. Yeah. Yeah. No more diapers. Right. Right. Okay.

She's pooping in a potty. And if it was liquid and sugary I'd be getting in there it just isn't I'm sorry I made myself what a life I need you on the rails not off the rails with Jessica please stay with me here

you start talking about insect poop it just goes you accelerate towards it this is the mental state we're in now. It's all poop talk for the rest of this. I know. Okay. Well, I read that book, you know, to our kids.

Everybody poops. I think it was originally an Italian kid's story. Everybody poops. It just shows all the animals, everybody pooping. And so your kids will learn that it's a very natural thing for all things that are alive. It does make sense that liquid feeders would have liquid, you know, very liquidy poop like hemiptera, which are suckers. That's what they have. It is. All right. All right. Nagin, keep it coming.

Here we go. Matthew Ritter asks cicadas are known for being very loud to us humans. How good is the cicada's sense of hearing? Are they deafening to each other and drown out all the sources of auditory information in their own environment? I like that. Yes. That's a good question. I mean, so you would expect that selection should act on females to be able to hear the calls of males.

Or vice versa. Just as males have been selected to make the calls long and loud. So different species of cicadas are out at any given time, right? And so the calls that males make are actually species-specific songs. So only the males make the calls? The females don't make the calls? The males are making the calls. The females kind of move their wings around a little bit to attract mates.

But it's the call that's really the mating. Okay, and I have to know, just I got to butt in here. Okay, so when I eat my three cicadas, should I eat the ones that are making noise or the ones that aren't? Just which ones taste better? Surely you know the answer to that question. Well, I mean, so the males that call the longest and the loudest are the ones that are going to get the most mates.

So maybe you want, maybe is is that like a prime rib? Like a grade A? Oh. Are the males that we're calling the loudest? But then I would be more destructive to the genus, the species, if I ate the most successful. So I should eat the unsuccessful ones. Yeah, I don't want to do a few with them.

Or you could wait until they've made it. And then as soon as that's done, and the female goes off to do her job of laying those eggs, you get that male. You eat it. That could be your solution. Got it. The males are making these long calls. The females are listening for the loudest and longest calls. And they tend to call in the hottest times of the day, which can be kind of energetically expensive.

So these are all cues. These are all signals that females can use to choose a mate that is going to be able to make it so that her sons would have the same traits. So they would be likely to be selected too. That's called the sexy sons hypothesis. But then also, she wants to get as many of her genes into the next generation as possible. That's how selection is, is acting.

Damn. Okay. Nagin, we're running short on time. Let's, let's see if we can get a light and a quick lightning round in here. Jessica, one sentence answers. Nagin, go. My daughter Trinity asks if the cicadas cycle have been impacted by human settlement. So we build over their habitat constantly. If you happen to be under the house that got built, you ain't never coming out. Yeah, I mean, especially if they cut down the tree,

which is your food source, right? If you're sucking, yeah. That's the answer. Yeah, all right. And you died while you're developing. That would be sad. Yeah, what a way to go. You got me empathizing with them now, Jessica.

What's your life? I don't want to empathize with these ugly bugs, okay? All right. With these beady eyes like on each corner. Okay, Nikki, go. Well, Stefan Somers wants just a specific recipe. You mentioned sauteing them in oil. Are you adding any herbs in there?

What's going on? I might add a little salt, yes. I have had exotic foods prepared for me in the past. I've had fried tarantula. And it tasted like crab. Maybe we shouldn't be surprised. And I've had, what else? I had beetles as well.

They were sauteed. No, no, no, no. Sorry, they weren't beetles. They were crickets, sauteed crickets. And they were sort of crunchy and made like a little snack. You know, like crunchy snacks as we like here in America. So I'm going to try to turn it into a crunchy snack. Okay.

Keep it going. Next one. We got a very interesting question from Nathan Cain who says, Would a flamethrower be a sufficient way to eliminate the cicadas if one in every five humans on the East Coast has one? Yes. Yes. eliminate the cicadas if one in every five humans on the East Coast has one? Yes! Yes! You're a fan of destroying cicadas with flamethrowers, right?

I'd say that you'd take ten minutes in the time-out chair and really reevaluate your life because if you've got a cicada flamethrower and you're pointing at any of those cicadas, then Neil's going to give you your number and I'm going to go there and I'm going to feed with you to make some jewelry instead yeah you could kill them with fire but why would you why would you yeah or maybe no no here here it is i'm just gonna cook them so i

can eat them see there you go there it is and we actually have to call it quits there but i want to add jessica there was a movie where insects were a very important part of one of the characters and it was in men in black there was one this guy who was just this pile of insects and you know his name i forgot edgar was wearing an edgar suit yeah edgar excuse me i wasn't on a first-name basis with this character, this alien character. So, yeah, so insects plus the movie Them back from the 60s or 50s with the big ants. Insects have made their rounds in pop culture. So I think you're in a good place for us to reach for you again when we want to get to the bottom of what insects are up to. So, Jessica, it's been a delight to have you on.

It's the first time we've had a sustained conversation, you being new to the bottom of what insects are up to. So, Jessica, it's been a delight to have you on. It's the first time we've had a sustained conversation, you being new to the museum. I hope to see more of you there. We can chill out and get you on more StarTalk episodes. And, Nagin, always good to have you. So great to be here, Neil. And I'm waiting for my next

invitation on your podcast, on which I've only been invited once. Okay? I've been on the daily show 14 times. Okay. Well, Neil, they have different standards. All right, guys, we're going to call it quits there. Thanks for making this work. This has been StarTalk Cosmic Queries. The Cade is our coming edition. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson bidding you to keep looking up.