StarTalk Radio - Cosmic Queries – Dinosaur Discoveries with Kimberly Chapelle

Episode Date: August 23, 2022

What did dinosaurs really look like? On this episode, Neil deGrasse Tyson and comic co-host Marcia Belsky explore questions we all have about dinosaurs, fossils, feathers, and asteroids with paleontologist Kimberly Chapelle. Is Jurassic Park accurate?NOTE: StarTalk+ Patrons can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free.Photo Credit: Copyright © 2005 David Monniaux, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. We're doing a Cosmic Queries edition today, and it's going to be all about dinosaurs. I think this is the first time we've ever made that the topic of a StarTalk episode.

And I got with me as co-host, Marsha Belsky. Marsha, welcome back to StarTalk. Thank you so much. I am so happy to be back. Excellent, excellent. So, you know, I don't know if you, like everybody else,

like loved dinosaurs as a kid. But however much you loved them and however much I loved them, we don't have the expertise necessary for the show. No. So we had to find someone who does. And came across

a postdoctoral research fellow at my own home institution, the American Museum of Natural History. Famous for its dinosaurs. I'd also like to think it's famous for its Hayden Planetarium. But the two together are jewels in the crown that this institution wears. Please help me welcome Kimberly Chappelle. Kimberly, welcome to Stark Talk. Hi. Hi, Neil. Hi, Marcia. Great to be here today. This is so cool.

Now, you first introduced yourself to me as Kimmy. So we're going to go with Kimmy. Yes, please, please, Kimmy. Yes. So let's go ahead and do that. So dinosaurologists, that's not what we call you guys. We call you paleontologists, right? That's correct. And what do you focus on? So I mainly focus on the plant-eating group of dinosaurs

called sauropodomorph dinosaurs. And that more, well, people are more familiar with the very, very large guys like the Plodocus and Brachiosaurus and things like that. So it's that main group of dinosaurs. With the Brachiosaurus, that's… I'm Googling all of this. I'm like Plodocus, Brachiosaurus.

And don't forget the Thesaurus. That's a new one that just entered. Is the Plodocus like the platypus? Kind of different. Different body scales. Okay, which onepus like the platypus? Different. Yes. Different body scales. Okay, which one? I just want to set this straight.

Which one, because we all, this is almost like a Pluto story. We all lost to the brontosaurus at some point. And that became what? What became the closest thing to the brontosaurus? Well, the brontosaurus comes in and out, right? I mean, this is the thing in pedos. We can, then things get confirmed and then they get removed and then they get removed

and then they get confirmed and it's sort of how it works. Okay. But Brontosaurus was plant-eating, correct? Yes, that is correct. Yeah. I just always think of that movie, The Land Before Time,

when I think of the Brontosaurus because they really, with the dinosaur plot lines when you're a kid, they really let you have it. It's really sad. But Marcia, there have been more modern representations of dinosaurs since Land Before Times. You're talking about the animated series?

Yes. Yes, okay. That's like the most successful animated dinosaur series ever at the time. Really? Yes, yes. Okay, with the facts. I mean, I believe that. There's other representations of dinosaurs that are. I mean, I believe that. There's other

representations of dinosaurs that are not cartoons. So I've heard. So I've heard. Just a little. So, we, you know, everyone has dinosaur questions. We'll lead off, I'll ask a question maybe, and then Marsha has one, and then we'll go to our

fan base, who all are Patreon members because right now they have the exclusive access to the question and answer mantle that is Cosmic Queries. So, let me ask you something. Kimmy. Alright. So,

how did dinosaurs get so big? Like, did you have smaller fox spittles? Like, they didn't just evolve overnight to be big. Where's the dinosaur that's half the size to the biggest one and then half that size

and then half that size? Like, how are they just all so big? Alright, Neil, so I'm going to take the next hour basically trying to answer this question. I mean, that is one of the main things, especially in the plant-eating dinosaur group, right? So the sauropodomal dinosaurs, they start off as very, very small things.

For example, like Berylestes, which is tiny. It's about 15 kilograms, which is about 30 pounds. Walks on two legs. And then as we get to the more derived guys, things like, you know, Brontosaurus or Apatosaurus and things like that, they're multi-ton animals. So there's this giant transition that happens in body size. And one of the main questions is not only how does that happen, but also what are all the physiological and anatomical changes that go hand in hand with that?

Because you can't just grow and become giant. There's lots of things that you need to do to your body plan in order to be able to do that. For example, you need fat stubby legs to plan in order to be able to do that. For example, you need fat stubby legs to hold up all that body weight. That is one. Yes, you need that. But you also,

I mean, one of the main things. You're lucky they're dead, Neil. You're lucky they're dead. Did I fat shame them? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, fat.

So watch your tone with that. Watch your tone. They're big bones, Neil. They're bones. They totally were watch your tone with that. Watch your tone. They're big bones, Neil. They're bones. They totally were big bones. Big, beautiful stubby legs.

But one of the main transition that happens, you know, also in that is the going from being bipedal or walking on two legs to being quadrupedal or walking on four legs. And that's definitely something that allows, you know, this great gain in body mass. Because being giant and multi-titan and walking on two legs is just probably not feasible and not something that could work. You need to be able to load all four of your limbs to be able to do that.

I've never thought about that, but that makes so much sense. Yeah, but that doesn't explain the millipede. That doesn't explain the millipede. What kind of weight is it holding up? I don't trust those things that should be I hate them millipedes would be

a bazillion tons then it should just be like yeah I can't or it could do that right and millipedes is like why do you have so many legs you're creepy

oh my gosh imagine a giant millipede absolutely not yeah absolutely not thank god for small favors wow and please

please unpack your specialty dinosaur category. Sauropodomorphs. That is correct. So, sauropodomorphs. So, for example, the two main groups of dinosaurs are sauriscans and ornithischans. So, ornithischans will be your group that includes your triceratops and ankylosaurus and things like that. They are... We love the triceratops. Right? Everyone loves the triceratops and ankylosaurus and things like that. They are...

We love the triceratops. Right? Everyone loves the triceratops. Or if this skin means... She's the favorite. ...herd-hipped dinosaur. Whereas saurischian, which includes your meat-eating dinosaurs like T-Rex and your sauropodomorph dinosaurs like Degloticus, saurischian means lizard-hipped dinosaurs. So sauropod, dinosaurs, like the bodicus. Saurischian means lizard hip dinosaurs.

So sauropod, sauro, comes from lizard. Interesting. Okay, so you all care about the hip, where the hip bone connects to the leg bone. So the hip is huge. So this is the... The hip is a big part of dinosaurs. It's got big hips.

That's good to know. You got big ass dinosaurs. This is what's coming out of this exercise. It's also one of the most confusing things because, so the main difference between lizard hips and bird hips, right? Or if you look at a bird today is the orientation of the pubis bone, whether it points forward or backwards. But we all know that, well, maybe we don't all know,

but birds are related to dinosaurs. They are the direct descendants of dinosaurs. Birds fall within the lizard-hipped group, which is really confusing. Not the bird-hipped group, the lizard-hipped group. Okay, Kimmy, it's a little weird to me that of all the features of a dinosaur, you're focusing on the hip and categorizing them based on it.

That feels a little weird. That's where it's different. They said either it goes forward or back. Okay. Let's say, how big is your big toe? And let me categorize that way. But if the big toe were facing the other way and half the animals, that's a different thing. That's a different one.

Marsha, stupid me. And I don't even know science good like that. So Marsha, you have a question before we go to our Cosmic Queries fan base. I mean, I like to ask the existential questions. I like to get to the root of, I think I speak for the people. And I feel like when I think about dinosaurs,

my whole thing is, okay, if this like Big Bang killed them, who's to say that's not going to happen to us? Basically, can you reassure me that a meteor is not going to crash into us? Or have you guys learned more about what the mass extinction event

actually was based on? Because I think there's a lot of confusion around that and fear. I'll lead off and then hand to Kimmy. Yeah, an asteroid took out all her dinosaurs. One of my rocks in space. I don't like that. Yeah, that was on you. Yeah, it's your fault, Neil.

Another one could take us out. And when they took out the dinosaurs, pride opened an ecological niche for our mammal ancestors to evolve into something more ambitious than a tree rodent. I mean, I'm grateful for that, but. Killer asteroids can be our friends or our enemies. Now, Kim, what do you have to say about asteroids or killer anything?

Extinction and dinosaurs. Right. I mean, I think with, with the, the sort of impretatious extinction and a lot of extinction events, there's this sort of misconception that these things happen instantaneously and that all the dinosaurs disappear. That is not the case. That's what happened in the land before time. Right?

This is a thing with all paleo art reconstructions where you have a bunch of dinosaurs. There's always fire in the background and volcanoes. There's one of the baby dinosaurs yelling like, Mom! It's volcanoes. There's one of the baby dinosaurs yelling like, Mom, Mom. It's horrible.

Crying in the distance. But obviously, within a direct radius around the asteroid that impacts the Earth, obviously everything is going to die much more quickly.

Extinction events take a very, very long time. So, for example, the one that killed the dinosaurs, which did not kill all the dinosaurs because the birds made it through. So birds are survivors.

My group of dinosaurs got wiped out completely. Probably actually one of the reasons is that they were so big. Being that big in size and losing a lot of your resources on Earth

is just, don't go hand in hand, though. It gets susceptible. Yes, exactly. Marsha, I remember a scene in Land Before Time where Chomper, do you remember who Chomper was? Yeah. That was the baby T-Rex. Where it stumbled on the

other playing dinosaurs. I think there was the, you know, the Triceratops baby and there was the Brontosaurus baby. And they're playing and Chomper doesn't realize yet that it's supposed to eat them. Right? Because they're playing and Chomper doesn't realize yet that it's supposed to eat them. Right?

Because they're just babies. It's like the kitten and the puppy playing until they reach an age and say, wait a minute, this is a violation. And that's a metaphor. And that's a metaphor. Wow.

I don't remember that part. Yeah, no. I thought it was a charming sort of reality check on what's going on anyhow that's a cartoon let's go straight to our questions let's do it

okay great okay let me ask the questions let me pull these up I haven't seen these and I don't think Kimmy has seen them either right so you're the only one no we're going in blind I have all the control

I could just be making these up for all you know okay I feel like this is a good follow-up on what we were just talking about. Hello, everyone. Hello, Chris from California. He said, why did some animals, parentheses, for example, many birds and alligators, survive the meteor that killed most of the life on the planet? the life on the planet. Ooh. And I think some frogs survive too.

And you'd think that, yes, a big animal needs a lot of resources and things, but a small animal might be more susceptible just because it's small. Perhaps. I don't know for sure. So I'm going to leave that as a cliffhanger, see what I did there. And we're going to take a break from Cosmic Queries. And when we come back, more with our expert paleontologist, Kimmy Chappelle, and our co-host, Marcia Belson. And start our return. I'm Joel Cherico, and I make pottery.

You can see my pottery on my website, CosmicMugs.com. Cosmic Mugs, art that lets you taste the universe every day. And I support StarTalk on Patreon. This is StarTalk with Neil deGrasse Tyson. We're back. StarTalk Cosmic Queries, the dinosaur edition. And I love these dinosaurs. At least I like rendering them extinct with asteroids.

But that's all I ever do when I think about them. Let the record show. Pro-asteroid. Are you pro or are you anti-asteroid? Something to hinge election results on, right? So we've got Kimmy Chappelle, who's a postdoc at the American Museum of Natural History. And Kimmy, you're leaving us, I'm told.

So you're from where to begin with? So I'm from Johannesburg, South Africa, originally. And I had the great pleasure of doing a postdoctoral fellowship at the AMNH where I met all of you lovely people. And I'm currently transitioning back from South Africa

to continue with a postdoctoral fellowship there. Exactly. Which university? I'm at the University of the Witwatersrand or just Wits University for short. Wits. I'm glad it has a short name. And so, South Africa as a country,

does it have a lot of good fossils? Oh, man. Again, I could fill a whole episode just to talk about the South African fossil record. We have a great fossil record. So, 66% of South Africa's land yields fossils of various types. They go from mammal ancestors to very

early dinosaurs to, we have great hominids, just all sorts of very, very cool things. Okay. The hominids in South Africa. The hominids, yes. They have a thesaurus and hominids. This is a whole literal waste.

Yeah. So Marsha, you left off with a question. Someone asking, it was Chris from California, I think. He wants to know, you have these creatures that live so long and so hardy and an asteroid takes them out. Okay, I get that. But now we have other, why did the birds survive?

Or their bird ancestors and some alligators and other lizards. Like what protection did they have that other animals did not? So I think, I mean, again, especially with the end-Cretaceous event, it is one that fascinates everyone, including scientists. And just very recently, there was a big splash in the media about the days the dinosaur died was in spring. So we're still every day or... In the spring? was in spring. So we're still every day or...

In the spring? In the spring. So we're still... There's a lot of research ongoing as to one, like, you know, what happens directly after the asteroid hits, but also what happens, as we said,

the long term after that. Why do some animals survive? Why do some don't? And there's a lot of factors to consider. One is where in the world those animals are compared to where the asteroid hit. Which areas have the most diversity? Groups that have a lot of genetic diversity might do better, for example. And that whole group of animals, that whole clade, not all of them will survive,

but they'll have enough representatives that will survive that will keep the group going. That's the whole value of genetic diversity. Exactly. Exactly. Right. Because you have variations that, and you don't know in advance whether the variation is good or bad for what the change,

the assault on your environment is. And so now you get an asteroid. So some versions of a group have asteroid-resistant genes. It's just coated in there. Yeah, exactly. They knew. They foresaw it.

They knew it was coming. That makes so much sense in terms of alligators. I feel like alligators would survive a nuclear bomb. They just seem so sturdy. Because they know they're badass. I think that's the thing.

They carry themselves that way. Yeah. They do. Even though on land, they're not nimble like they are in the water. They're nothing. They still walk and like, get out of my way.

Absolutely. Yeah. They have that confidence of surviving an extinction event. It could be because their elbows are out when they walk. And anybody who walks down the street with their elbows. They look buff. Yeah. Yeah. It's like because their elbows are out when they walk. And anybody who walks down the street with their elbows

sticking out. Yeah, yeah. It's like, don't mess with them. So you like our paleontology theories? So, I mean, I've done field work

in Zimbabwe on Lake Kariba where you're surrounded by crocodiles and hippos. And between the two, I think on land, I would probably would rather run into

a crocodile than a hippo, I think. Oh, yeah. That would be my... I don't ever want to see a hippo. Are hippos dinosaurs? No. They seem like dinosaurs. This is what I don't get.

I look at a blue whale. I'm like, how is that not a dinosaur? How is a hippo not a dinosaur? That's crazy to me. Marsha, you can't just wish animals to be dinosaurs. There's a science behind this. I know I can't. I just want to tell you.

That's why I'm on the show to educate myself because otherwise I'd just say a hippo's a dinosaur. You're not going to convince me otherwise. Anything that looks mean is a dinosaur. Anything that looks like...

Any big mean animal, I think, is a dinosaur. That's right. Big and mean, especially, what's that lizard thing down somewhere?

Komodo dragon. kimono dragon. The kimono dragon. Totally. Exactly what you're talking about. In fact, I'm old enough to remember this. Every dinosaur movie in the 50s and 60s

had a dressed up kimono dragon. That was the, that was, because we didn't know how to do stop action really yet. And so you got the most dinosaur looking thing. But Marcia, they did not choose a hippo to stop action really yet. And so you got the most dinosaur looking thing. But Marcia, they did not choose a hippo.

I don't get that. I think they should have. If I were the casting agent, I would have gone a different way. Would you teach it to walk on two legs too? I know, you'd have to sump them. I mean, I think hippos, even if you raise them from babies, it's like, don't mess with them. They are dangerous. This is the hippo podcast now.

But I did play Hungry, Hungry Hippos. I just want you to know. And those look like dinosaurs too, Hungry, Hungry Hippos. Don't they? Wait, so Kimberly, does being underwater offer protection? Because underwater is kind of a stable place. And that's where you might find dinosaurs or some eggs that were laid. I mean, something just has to get through that portal.

Right. Right, and come out on the other side. So there aren't many marine dinosaurs. Again, there's a lot of recent research that came out on Spinosaurus from Morocco being one of the, I mean, not most marine, that's a really bad way of describing it, but really good, or really successful at hunting in water or at foraging underwater. But they aren't strictly marine dinosaurs.

There are things like ethersaurs and plesiosaurs, you know, the things with the long neck that kind of look like the Loch Ness monsters floating around. Those are marine reptiles, so they're not actually part of the dinosaur. I love it that you're referencing real animals

to a fictional one. They look like the fictional. They do, though. And that's something that everyone recognizes. I agree 100%. That's kind of funny that everybody could recognize, yeah, a fictional thing, but then like real dinosaurs.

We're like, no, we've never been educated about that. What? No, but I know about what the Loch Ness Monster looks like. It's just a funny fact. I'm just commenting on the social culture. It helps. So just before we go to the next question, you're saying that it depends on what the diversity of that genus was, perhaps. You didn't use that word. The clade, I think, as a whole. A clade's just a whole clade. And so you expect that many would have died and others emerged on the other side. So what's interesting to me that if birds survived or the bird ancestor, how many bird ancestors didn't?

Probably a lot. Yeah, that's right. All the ones who are on the ground when the meteor hit. Who were vaporized. Exactly. Where did the meteor hit? I don't think I meteor hit. Who were vaporized. Exactly. Where did the meteor hit? I don't think I know that. At the Yucatan Peninsula, what is now Mexico.

There we go. Oh. They found a crate of oil drillers prospecting for where they might find the next batch of Gulf oil. Found a ridgeline buried, deep buried, and they traced it into a whole circle. And then they dated that zone, and they found out that it dates from 65 million years ago. And so there it is. It was the complete, it was not only the smoking gun,

not only the smoke, it was the gun. It was all there, all in one thing. And from that on, he said, yep, the asteroid took out the dinosaur. But if you remember the Disney movie Fantasia, if you haven't, I highly recommend it. It's all classical music and all animated, and there's no dialogue. And different bits of classical music

put to different animated stories. And one of them was Stravinsky does The Rites of Spring. And to that music, they portrayed dinosaurs thriving and then going extinct. See, that's what I'm talking about. So much dark stuff. Yeah, but they didn't know about the asteroid back then. So they just had like the temperature changed, you know, and it got hot for them and they couldn't survive it.

But Kimmy, dinosaurs were around for hundreds of millions of years. Surely the temperature would have changed at least a few times in that period, right? I'm sure it did, but it's sort of like the extinction event today. I'm sure it's the rate at which it happens. Okay. That's what I was just thinking. And going back to which claims go extinct and which don't,

I think, and this is also something we're still working on and understanding. I say we as if like paleontologists as a whole, not me personally, but it's the physiology of dinosaurs. So I'm sure that being warm-blooded or cold-blooded is also going to affect how you survive in an ever-changing environment. And there's great research that's recently come out on a new method to identify whether dinosaurs were warm-blooded or cold-blooded, for example. So that's, I mean, these are all questions

that we're also still working on. And what's funny is no one ever said he was a warm-blooded killer. No, no, right? This has never happened. It's going to change the story. Completely. Changed the tale. So Mar's going to change the story. Completely. So, Marcia, give me another one.

Okay. Another question. I like this one. It says, Hi, everyone. I'm Lucas from New Westminster, British Columbia. I have a geeky question for Dr. Chappelle. I'm going to mispronounce this word.

If Massass Pondoulos, does that word make sense to you? Massass Pondulus? Massass Pondulus, yes, it does. Massass Pondulus, we're still around today. Do you think we could train them to be rideable? Or would you be able... I love it.

Would you be able to raise and grow them into an animal like a working horse? That's an incredible question. So Massass Pondulus is my baby. into an animal like a working horse? That's an incredible question. So, Massospondylis is my baby, so that is what I did my honors, masters, and PhD degrees on. It's the

most common Southern African dinosaur that we have, and it's one of the very early members of that sauropodomorph group that we were talking about. It's much smaller. It's about half a ton for people who don't know. And it walks on two legs. When it comes to training them,

I would personally love to think that, yes, I would say that if you're going to train a dinosaur, I would probably go for one that is not ginormous, such as the polycus, because that seems really impractical. And then also probably go for one that eats plants because that sounds like a great idea. You don't want it to eat you.

That's just practical. You can take some of the risk out of it that way. So how do you ride something that walks on two legs? Well, I guess that's one. I mean, they ride ostriches, right? That's doable. Oh, they do. Who's they? It's the they. Marha, it's them.

It's obvious. People who raise ostriches. Who's these they that are riding ostriches? It's the thing. I've seen it. No, I think I've seen it too. I've seen it.

Plus in Star Wars, there's that creature on the snow planet. Yes, that's what I was thinking too. They're two-legged. Right? With front little sort of T-Rex front legs. Yeah. I feel like it's, you can ride an animal that's two-legged. Right? With front little sort of T-Rex front legs.

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like you can ride an animal that's two-legged. You just are going to look kind of silly. It just doesn't look right in the human brain of like, you know what I mean? It looks like a piggyback ride. Oh, I know. But, Kimberly, the Kimmy, the half a ton is about the weight of a horse, right?

We ride horses and we don't hear the relative size difference. Maybe we should, but we don't. Yeah, I fear horses. So do you think we could ride them? You didn't give an answer to this yet. I think you're dodging the answer. Yes or no. I'm going to pull my PSG on the line and say yes.

I think it would be doable. Research comes out tomorrow that it's not rideable. Exactly. I think the real question is, have any reptiles been domesticated? Oh, that's an excellent question.

I'm trying to think. Yeah, I don't think so. Not big ones, yeah, because I feel like the smaller ones, they just keep in cages and stuff. Yeah, you just keep feeding them. Not really trained.

They're not trained to do anything, right? Even snakes. People keep snakes as pets, but they're not like trained to behave. If we have no experience successfully domesticating a reptile, then to get a reptile that's a thousand pounds and believe that we could ride it, that's kind of a pipe dream right there. I think you could ride a big snake. I feel like you could ride a big snake. I feel like you could ride a reptile. Even if they're not mentally, you know, you don't have

the bond like a cat or a dog. You could put a saddle on a snake and ride it. I think you could. I think someone has. I feel like riding a alligator or a crocodile seems really inconvenient. I don't know how you would do that. Yeah. Someone in Florida's done it. Probably. I Yeah. Yeah. Someone in Florida has done it.

Probably. I 100% believe. Somebody in Florida has done everything, right? Definitely. Or everyone in Florida has done something, right? There it is. Inverse of that. So give me another quick question here.

All right. Let's get another quick one in. Okay. So this is the first one we got. It says, hello, Dr. Tyson, Dr. Chappelle. This is Devin from Indiana. I was wondering how accurate the Jurassic Park movies are. Can you extract DNA from fossilized mosquitoes that drink dinosaur blood?

And other science facts, I think, that that movie presents. Okay, I know one fact. I would lead off with this. You ready? Because I spoke to one of my paleontology colleagues at the museum. So do you remember where they got the mosquito blood? It was like in a cave in amber in South America

and they chopper it in. And what I learned is one of the greatest, largest repositories of bugs in amber, including mosquito, is just in New Jersey. So the whole beginning of that movie would have been different as they're stuck in traffic crossing the George Washington Bridge. Just getting into Jersey.

Just getting into Jersey. On a jet ski on the Hudson. Let's take a quick break. We're going to come back straight back to Kimmy who's going to tell us who's going to evaluate the authenticity of the Jurassic Park franchise when StarTalk

Cosmic Queries Dinosaurs Edition returns. We're back. StarTalk Cosmic Queries, dinosaurs. Kimmy, how do we find you on social media? You can find me on Twitter. My handle is at Kimmy, K-I-M-M-I, dash, chap, C-H-A-P.

You can find me there. Underline or straight dash? Underline, underline. Sorry. I'm actually quite new to Twitter. Kimmy, underline. Sorry. I'm actually quite new to Twitter. So can we underline? Yes, that's right. Okay.

So the question we dangled with, who is it from again, Marsha? This question is from Devin from Indiana. Devin from Indiana. So another one, when the first Jurassic Park movie was released, many of them collaborated with our paleontologists at the museum just back in the 1990s. And I was a brand new in the employ of the museum. And I was just intrigued to see all this dinosaur stuff happening. And they wanted to make sure that they positioned T-Rex properly to show how it would run, the way birds would run.

to show how it would run, the way birds would run, and how, so there's a lot of this talk about, you know, and will the tail drag or does the tail not drag? And I remember those questions being asked and solved at the time to improve the authenticity of the dinosaurs that were in the films and in the entire franchise. But that's the last I knew of it. And so, Kimmy, you've been in the full middle of that. What can you tell us

about what we see versus, you know, fiction versus reality? Right. So, I mean, so I went to see the new Jurassic World movie not that long ago.

And actually, the scientific advisor on that one is also an ex-AMNH, which is Steve Busati. So he was one of Martin Rell's students. Nice. AMNH,

the American Museum of Natural History. Very good. We got people. So, Marsha, we're going to take over. We're putting our people in storage. People are out there working in Hollywood. So, Kimmy says, well, she's leaving to go to South Africa. She's an operative.

Exactly. I'm representing. Telling all the secrets. Yeah. And there is definitely. So, they did have an advisor. So, that's good. Yeah, they did.

And I think it's also the balance between making it scientifically accurate, but also making it entertaining. And as someone who grew up in a country where you can go on game drives or safaris, I think if they had made the dinosaurs as ecologically accurate as they would have been. It would not be the most entertaining of these. Because, you know, carnivores don't run around running after each other and eating everything that's in their sight and like roaring every two minutes. That's just not

how it works. But... They hunt stealthily. It is very cool to see them do that. And... Roaring every two minutes. They wouldn't be very good predators no they'd be terrible

there's like no stealth involved at all it's just great point hi yeah I also

T-Rex you're already so big like calm down whereas my group of dinosaurs the sort of photomorphs one are basically

never hardly featured. And they're just like these lumbering things that like walk around in the background not really doing anything. So, there's definitely a bias.

But they're not dangerous. And so, they can't eat you. But you know, there's so much cool things about them. You know, they could like, I don't know, stampede people

or do something cool. Mm-hmm. So. Wait, was that a sentence that just came out of your mouth? Yeah. There's such cool things about them.

They can stampede people. Don't underestimate them as the villains. Did I just hear the sentence out of him? I'm thinking. She's trying to get her people in the film. Exactly. Her dinosaurs. If I was to make the Jurassic world entertaining,

then that would be my take. Like, let's, you know, get them to stomp on things. Like, they could stampede. Yeah. You know. You could get a bunch of herbivores stampeding one of the scientists for sure. Yeah. You know. You could get a bunch of herbivores stampeding one of the scientists

for sure. Like a giant herd of like dreadnoughts like, you know, dashing across. That sounds terrifying. It can be Hollywood exciting. So at our museum,

we have a Velociraptor fossil like there on display. And the Velociraptor, that was like the terrorizing one in the first Jurassic Park. And if you look at it, you say, huh?

It's like the size of a large dog. Yes. Yeah. It's not very big. And if that ran after me, I would just kick it. It's like,

get out of here. I'm busy eating my sandwich, right? And so, they clearly pumped that one up for the movie. So if we can draw a kick, it's not a dinosaur.

Is that what you're saying? It's not a scary dinosaur. And I think I was told, who's I speaking with about this, that what boosted the terror factor is that they made it

the same eye level as you. Yeah. So it's like, oh my gosh. Yeah. This is, it's like a... With the teeth looking right at you. Yeah. So it's like, oh my gosh. Yeah. This is, it's like teeth looking right at you. Right at nuts way high up where you can just dig in a hole. So this can

chase you all the places you can go because it's the same size as you. Right. And there it was running through the doorways and all the rest of this. Right. I mean, it also has better access to your face, which seems to be one of the main factors in Jurassic World. I mean, it also has better access to your face, which seems to be one of the main factors in Jurassic World. I love that

sentence. Better access to your face. We know that the Velociraptors, the T-Rex, they obviously had really good agents at the time and made sure that they got in the film. Right, right. So if the herbivores had had better PR, they could have maybe,

you know, gotten in there with a stampede, but it's been three movies. Where are they? I agree. Right, right. Right. So what's the biggest

Velociraptor that's out there? Do we just have a stunted one on display? So, I mean, Velociraptor is the genus and they are quite small. So actually,

the type specimen is at the AMNH. So the type specimen being the first one described. The skull is only about that big. Really? Oh my gosh.

That's a phrase, type specimen. So it is the one that defined the species or the genus. Genus and species in this case. Wow.

But they are not big animals. You do get raptors that get bigger, such as Utah raptor, for example, that is a bigger one. In Utah, okay. What's the one that flies? The famous one,

the one that's like really big and scary and flies. No, no, the one in Utah is a Mormon. That's the different, they grow bigger there because they don't, there's no caffeine, no alcohol. Mm-hmm.

Totally healthy raptors. They just get big and strong. That's right. The big one that flies, the pterosaurs? They're like, no alcohol. Mm-hmm. Totally healthy raptors. They're skipping and strong. That's right. The big one that flies. The pterosaurs? They're like... Maybe that. How big is that one?

Or the pterodactyl. Yes. Were there huge flying dinosaurs or were they all bird-sized? So there's many lineages within reptiles. So dinosaurs are part of the lineage that includes birds and crocodiles, which is called archosaurs.

But then you also get marine reptiles, like we spoke about, and then you birds and crocodiles, which is called archosaurs. But then you also get marine reptiles, like we spoke about, and then you get flying reptiles, which are the pterosaurs. So they are part of reptilia as a whole, but they are not dinosaurs. They are different. The pterosaurs, that's a PT. PT, yes. We don't have

flying reptiles anymore, do we? And that's a good thing, I would think. I'm glad we don't. Keep them on the ground. You know, one of the adversaries to Godzilla, who ostensibly is a T-Rex, was Mothra. Not Mothra, Rodan. Rodan was a flying dinosaur that could fly supersonic. That was the baddest-ass dinosaur I've ever seen.

So that's a good sentence. I like that one. So, I mean, the pterosaurs are also terrifying because they get really big. So, like Quetzalcoatl, if it's sitting on land, it's the same height as a giraffe, which is just awful.

It sounds terrifying. They're really, really big. They attack you from the sky. Yes. See, I don't like that. And how does that even... I mean, I guess airplanes are a thing. I was like, it's so big.

How does it even fly? Well, again, another, you know, point to Nate. Did you really answer that? I'm like, no, I'm like, no, I know, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is a good question. Let's try to get in a few more questions. We've got like just a couple of minutes left.

So Kimmy, we're going to go into soundbite mode. So we'll test your evening news soundbite talents with this next set of questions. Go. Okay, so this is a question I think we're all curious about. This comes from Hope. She says, hi, Dr. Chappelle. What was it that made the community start to believe

that many dinosaurs had feathers? Great question. Soundbite, many dinosaurs had feathers? Great question. Soundbite, please. All right, great question. So it's all about how the fossils are preserved. So some fossils that are preserved in the right kind of rock will actually preserve the feathers on them.

And that's how you start understanding. And then after that, you can sort of fill in the gaps on the tree of dinosaurs as to which ones would have had feathers and which ones wouldn't have had feathers. Cool. Nice soundbite. Okay. Cool. Next one, Marcia. Okay, next question.

Wait, just to be clear, feathers don't normally fossilize because they're so fragile, correct? So you need special fossilizing conditions for them. Yes. I mean, it is special. I mean, ideal conditions, essentially. Ideal. That's the word. Okay. Yeah, so I mean, it is special. I mean, ideal conditions, essentially. Ideal. That's the word. Okay. Yeah. Perfect.

I don't like imagining them with feathers, but that's just me. Okay. That's my hard opinion. Okay. This is from Sherry who calls herself

Sherisaurus from San Diego. Love it. Love it. Love Sherisaurus. Says, Hi, Dr. Chappelle and Dr. Tyson. Are there any parts of my body that I can point to and say, look, this evolved from a dinosaur?

Ooh, any holdovers? I love it. Not from a dinosaur directly, but probably from an ancestor from a dinosaur. I mean, you can go back all the way to fish, essentially. And some of your body parts will have evolved from that. Like a vertebrae. Yeah, exactly.

Limbs. I was going to say my back Like a vertebrae. Yeah, exactly. Limbs. I was going to say my back, I think, sometimes. Yeah, yeah. But no, not from a dinosaur directly. So you're saying nothing, but you have to go to it earlier in the tree of life to find a common ancestor. Yes, because I mean,

we're on completely different branches of the tree of life, right? So nothing that we will have will have evolved from the dinosaurs. That entails that we would have... Got it. But before each of our branches, there were animals with heads, four limbs, and a vertebrae. And two eyes, a nose, and a mouth. Exactly. Which we do share with dinosaurs.

Right. So that is the common ancestor. Got it. Okay. One question that's been bugging me. Maybe I'll save it for the end. I'll save it for the end. Okay.

Marsha, go. Okay. This is Elaine in the Stars. They said, greeting from Montreal. Was the T-Rex able to run as fast as portrayed in Jurassic Park chasing Jeeps and all of that? Questions are vibrant. Soundbite, remember soundbite. No, so T-Rex, there's a great paper.

Well, there's a great research that showed that they're actually quite slow animals. A lot of dinosaurs would have actually been very, very slow, mainly because of body size. And they did some work where they scaled up a chicken, essentially, and then musculature that goes with a chicken and found that it would have been very, not as fast as a Jurassic Park.

Wow. So a T-Rex is about as fast as a chicken? No, a scaled-up chicken. Is that really what she said? A scaled-up chicken. Well, you have to look at it in order to be able to understand how these dinosaurs moved. You have to look at animals that we know

today, essentially. Okay, yeah. And you, because their physiology has enough similarities that you can get some insights. I get it. Okay. I keep going, Marcia. You're doing great, Kimmy. Good get some incidents. I get it. Yeah. Okay. I keep going, Marsha. You're doing great, Kimmy. Good soundbite.

I love it. These are great. Hello, Dr. Tyson, Dr. Chappelle. Greetings from Ontario. If the meteor hadn't struck, do you think dinosaurs would still be around and perhaps dominate the planet? Homo sapiens would probably still live as grifters in the forest and eat insects? I vote yes. I mean, that sounds great.

I feel like that's a great also ending to the story. But I mean, okay, one, quickly, not all dinosaurs went extinct, so birds are still around. I will say that. So they are still around today. So technically, that answers that part of the question. But, you know, that's the one that we just can't answer, really, because we don't know what other events would have happened. I guess lots of things can happen in the world.

Can I tell you why I vote yes? Yes, go for it. I vote yes rather than I'm not sure. Okay. Okay. Here's my yes. You ready? Ask yourself how many years have elapsed since the dinosaurs,

as we know them, as portrayed in Jurassic Park, how many years have elapsed since the dinosaurs, as we know them, as portrayed in Jurassic Park, how many years have elapsed since they went extinct? What's the number? 65 million years. Good. So now we ask, how long were dinosaurs on Earth before then? Right. So they appeared 160 million years. Hundreds of millions of years.

Yeah. So they appeared 235 million years. Hundreds of millions of years. Yeah. So they appeared 235 million years ago. Okay. So they were around long before. They were around for longer

than the time that they had been extinct. Yeah. And so when I just compare those two time frames, I say there is no reason to think that just in the next

65 million years they'd go extinct. They've been around for 300 million years. That's my... I think that's a great... Neil's afraid they're going to come back and wants to make sure they know

that he's on their side. He wants the stampede to close on his side. That's what he wants. The Godzilla came back. You know, I'll just say, hey, yo. All these birds are going to say thank you.

I was all for it with you here. So that's why I'm looking at just compare, it's a pure time scale argument. It has nothing to do with

physiology. I think that is a great answer and I do think that they would still be around but I think that the diversity

would have changed because that does happen in the 160 million years that they're around, I think. Yeah, sure,

yeah. It would be a different ensemble but as a group they were very successful. Yeah, they would have survived until they met American hunters and then they. Yeah, sure, yeah. It would be a different ensemble, but as a group, they were very successful. Yeah, they would have survived until they met American hunters and then they would have...

Until humans came along, essentially. Yeah, exactly. No, no, no. We would still be... T-Rex or whoever would still be dining on our mental ancestors

as hors d'oeuvres. And like you said, Kimmy, we'd be eating insects in the forest trying to escape. We'd be humble at least. We'd be humble. All right.

So I'm going to, we got to bring this to a close. I'm going to ask my final question, if I may. Okay. Okay. This is a blunt question. Just stay with me on it. You ready? Kimmy, what the hell are the front limbs of T-Rex for?

That's an excellent point. Why do they exist? I'm told that the two hands couldn't even reach each other. So it couldn't even use them to hold anything. No. It's just this thing.

Well, I guess, again, a lot of research goes into this question. And still at conferences today, it's an ongoing debate as to why does it happen. So it's unsettled. Yeah, why does it happen, but also how does it happen? Because it's not just T-Rex. Just to be clear, Marcia, when she says

a lot of research is going into this, that's science code for, we still have no idea what the hell is going on. We don't know. That's why there's still research in it, right? Because the public will think, well, there's research, so we must know. No. No. That is the evidence we don't know.

Continue, Kimmy. Well, I think, I mean, it's also sort of, yes, their arms shorten, but other things happen, right? They have much stronger legs. They have much stronger jaws. So whether it's sort of a trade-off between the two, they may have found a way. If the two hands can't even touch each other,

wasn't there a spell there for a while where people, your people, thought maybe T-Rex is not a predator, maybe it's a, what do you call the other one? A scavenger. Because it can't grab anything that it catches. You can't just bite at something as you chase it. You've got to sometimes grab it.

Well, you clearly have not seen Jurassic World because that's exactly what it does. It just runs around just like... It just bites people. Yes, true. Yes. True. Yes.

It does seem like it's mainly using its skull for that kind of stuff. It's definitely not using its arms. Okay. And one last thing about it. Okay. So you're saying the arms, there's a lot of compensatory physiology to the wimp arms that it has. Okay. And is it true that the dinosaur brains

were no bigger than the size of a walnut, even though they had huge heads? Yes, they have proportionally very small brains. That is true. They have, yes. Really? Yes, I mean, a walnut will depend on which dinosaur you're talking about.

For example, a sauriquad, like the platypus, the skull is about that big. The brain is probably only about that big, so they're not. Would you say that big? You know, several feet across and the brain is the size of an orange. Yeah, essentially. My gosh. It's like the Amazon packaging where you get like a big box and there's a little tiny chapstick inside.

You don't want to damage the chapstick. Yeah. That's what a dinosaur brain is like. Wait, wait. So, but what else is occupying the volume of the skull? In what? In all of them? They have a lot of sinus cavities.

No, if the brain is little and they're… They have a lot of sinus cavities, a lot of jaw musculature. Well, I mean, it also, again, depends on which one you're looking at. A lot of teeth. A lot of… Okay, so they weren't doing calculus or anything like that? Oh, no. They're just biting. No, they're just walking around, biting, eating, reproducing, sleeping.

Or as your dinosaurs will do, they chew lettuce. Exactly. As they turn their head left and right for the camera. And stampede, and stampede, potentially. And rip your face off if you're okay. Yeah. Come on. All right, we got to end it there.

Guys, it's been highly illuminating. Kimmy, this has been wonderful. It's been awesome. And, you know, every dinosaur movie that comes out, we're going to have to call you. That sounds great. I like that deal. I'm going to hold you to that.

Can I prearrange for that? Anytime. Very excellent. There. And Marshaarrange for that? Anytime. Very excellent. There. And Marsha, your social media? My social media is all at Marsha Belsky and then my Instagram is at Marsha Sky. Marsha Sky. Any reference

to the universe is good by me. All right. Not good by me. Any reference to the universe is okay in my book. Okay, guys. Great to have you both on StarTalk Cosmic Queries, the Dinosaur Edition. Neil deGrasse Tyson here. Keep looking up.