StarTalk Radio - Cosmic Queries – Multiverse Nesting Dolls

Episode Date: December 9, 2025

What if our universe is the inside of a black hole… inside another black hole? Neil deGrasse Tyson and Paul Mecurio answer a grab bag of fan questions about black hole mergers, the misconception about gravity assists, and if there’s such a thing as laws of physics.NOTE: StarTalk+ Patrons can listen to this entire episode commercial-free.Thanks to our Patrons Beth, Rebecca Yoswein, Leigh, Desiree Doporto, Bao Le, Thomas Alvarez, Eric Venus, Max And Gaz, Angel, Rebecca Schatz, Micheal Booth, Bruce Walton Jr, Rhea Rosier, Blake Rottmann, Patrick Clark, Cap, Paul Porter, Matthew Walton, Tiffany Brown, Brenda Eaves, Nash Bosworth, Billy Smith, Mike, Frenchy (Michael French), Teddy Funk, Randall Napier, Mary Zoellner, Carl L. Blackwell, Boris Barberic, Dexter Blackman, Joel Barjon, Kev, Abhay Joshi, Catherine Mary Darensbourg, Dav W, Brian Loop, cryHAVOC884, Daniel Bernal, Brian Page, Brendon Dougherty, hello hello is this thing on, Randy, Mary, Max, lo-res file, "CK" with th maual curly quotes, Draszje, David Szacik, Jason Nowak, Charlie Waddell, Danielle Taylor, Guillermo Gonzales, Gary in SD, Ohana, Jesse Abelson, Alex Nijman, Thorigrim, Peter J. Kushar, Kerry Lamb, Lengua Franca, Pamela Diane Carls, Jon, L Moore, RobbaYaga, Vilius Kazakauskas, Bjorn Nelson, Bob Watson, Shawn, MadWarrior, Devin, Brady Tomberlin, Micheal McEvoy, Pat, Kevin B, Tyler, Blaine Willick, Matthew CRessman, Zac, Julius Chatterjee, and Rigel Lopez for supporting us this week. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of StarTalk Radio ad-free and a whole week early.Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Paul, people love themselves some black hole. Yeah, and I think it's because it's sort of the unknown, right? Because it can eat you. Yes. And that forces you to respect them. Yeah, exactly. It's like a street thing. Coming up on StarTalk, Cosmic Queries.

Welcome to StarTalk. Your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk. Neil deGrasse Tyson, you're a personal astrophysicist. We're doing a Cosmic Queries grab bag today with Paul McCurio. Paul. Hi.

First, nice to see you, but I have to thank you. We have to correct. I am baron. Paul McCurier. Did that happen? United me. Oh, okay. Thanks for reminding me.

Where are the trumpets? I just forgot. Barron. Barron, Paul McCuriel. Thank you for that reminder. And the nice thing is you created problems at my house because now my wife and son have to call me that all the time.

I think I use my Excalibur to do that. You did. It was a big thing. A lot of people responded online. On the wall there. One person said maybe you should whatever, but you didn't, thank God. No, it's great to see you. Great to be back.

All right. And you got a podcast. Yeah. What's the name of that podcast? Inside Out with Paul Mercurio. Inside Out with Paul McCurio. Yes, I have. Some one-on-one interviews with folks.

Yeah. Paul McCartney and Colbert and I perform on that show. Yeah, no, it's all good. Yeah, yeah. And you perform on Colbert. Do you also write for him as well? No, but you used to write for the Daily Show. I wrote for the Daily Show, yeah, for a long time, yep.

And then touring with my stand-up and my off-Broadway show directed by Frank Oz, permission to speak. Love Frank Oz. Nobody doesn't love Frank Oz. He's the best. He's like such a mensch, as I say. Yeah, he's so sweet. And he's Yoda, so it's very intimidating to work with the original Yoda because...

Does he give stage directions in yours? Yoda speak. Someone wants him to go backwards. When he orders, though, he orders backwards. The steak I will have. I'm like, all right. We get it, Frank. You're Yoda.

Stop. We're in a diner, okay? No, he's the sweetest human being and so talented. Really good. Yeah. We've actually had him on StarTalk. If you dig him up, he'll be in our archives somewhere. Oh, I didn't know you had him on.

Long ago. Yeah, we had everybody. Oh, yeah. He doesn't live far from here. We should go to his house. Here is my office. Show up with the puppet. At the Hayden Planetarium.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm about to reach for Minnie Neal. There you go. The hand goes up the butt or something. Oh, you can move the, oh, look at you. My mustache is coming off. Yeah, you look, you look like a bandit of some kind that's going to, and he has 19th century that's holding up a train.

Who are you talking to? So, Cosmic Queries. Yeah. Grab bag. We got some fun ones. You got them all right in front of you. Got them all in front of me. All right.

Jump in. I haven't seen these. I might not know some of them. I mean, I don't know. So are we good? Yeah, go for it. All right. If I don't know an answer, I'll just say, I don't know.

You know. No. No, stop. You know. Okay. Adam Schmidt. Hello, Dr. Tyson. Greetings from Adam in Atlanta.

I loved your video on the possibility. Our universe is inside a black hole. So did a lot of people. Yeah. That's weird. I, um, I was like that. In our universe, we have detected dozens of black holes. mergers. If we're inside a black hole, what would that event look like if our black hole merged

with another black hole on our parent universe? That's very cool. Okay, I got, why don't we, there's more to the question. You want to stop there? No, no, go on, go on. Okay, what would evidence of something like that in our past look like? Could our parent black holes continue to creation of matter? Explain why we're continuing to expand. I can't answer with precision all of those points, but I can say a couple of things. A black hole is black from the outside. If you're on the inside, you see light coming in. You see what's going on outside. It's all coming down to you. It's funneled to a very narrow field of view, but you see it coming in. To the point of singularity. So you would see the other black hole collide with you. You should be

able to see that. Would you see it or feel? It's like, it's like nesting dolls, right? in a way, like in the sense that like a black hole. Well, once they're together, they become one. Right. All right. And you don't, you lose track that there were once two of them. So you'll see it come in. The event horizons will merge into one larger event horizon and all of its matter will join

you in your black hole. And they would say the same thing about them because you're, it's relative, right? You'll join each other, have a common envelope, a common event horizon. And you'll see. the matter collapsing down. If there's a singularity there, everybody's headed towards the singularity. But now there's a theory in that singularity. Oh, the singularities go to each other. Right. Yeah. But there's a theory within the back hole that the singularity doesn't necessarily, it could mean that another universe is created. Yes. Yes. From that. So it's sort of

from it, just the black hole mathematics gives you an entire other space time inside of it. So it's like this cosmic like family tree where we have. Oh, oh, you mean it's nest? Well, I, that's what you mean by the nesting dolls. Yeah. Right, right. Because the universe inside the universe inside the universe. And it's the universe is all the way down. And it's like one, we have just one unmarried single parent. It's like we're an illegitimate child and and nobody remembers anybody's birthday. Like that's pretty much how the family functions. Right. I hadn't thought of that. There's the one starter universe and the black holes within are universes within or universes within. So yeah, that's a curious consideration. The point of there being another space time in

front of you is that as you pass into the black hole, time slows down for you relative to the rest of the universe, which means to you, the rest of the universe speeds up. Right. Looking out to the rest of the universe, you will see the entire future history of the universe unfold before your Well, my understanding is also, if I'm looking at you as you approach the event horizon, it's slowing, it's looking like it's slowing down, but it's not. But I'm looking at you and you're speeding up, correct. Right, but there's spaghettification happening as well. That only happens down near the singularity.

I mean, it's funner to think that crossing the event horizon is where you get all torn up. Right. No, no. It's just this region of space. You'll pass right through it like you didn't know or care that it was there. you'll realize once you're in you can't get out and depending on whether the black hole is spinning and how big it is your path could go straight to the singularity and that's all she wrote but it's chaos within it because it's consuming it's light and stars and gases it's inescapable it's like every family Thanksgiving dinner in my house cannot get out in its complete chaos and you have an annoying brother-in-law there and you know who I'm talking about no they're not brother-law they're uncle's and aunts those are the crazy ones ones are the uncles and ants. Yeah. So maybe, I mean, sure, there'd be a lot of different things there, a cacophony of cosmic objects. Let's go to Alex M. Zabeta from Houston. What is beyond the

black holes? Explain. What is beyond the black hole? Dunkin' Donut franchise. Everywhere. They're everywhere. Well, like we just discussed, there's, there'd be, there's a singularity down in the middle. But to the extent that you can avoid the singularity, which it's not clear if you can, plus they have rotating black holes where what's going on inside is a little different. But like I said, there's an entire universe opening up inside of it. Right. So there's something, there's a colleague of mine who considered the natural selection of universes. And he said that we are most likely to live in a universe where the laws of physics favor

the creation of black holes. Through massive stars. By whatever mechanism. Right. Because that universe that has black holes, each of those black holes is a universe within. And if those laws of physics make universes within that,

so which universe are we most likely to be in, the universe where there's a lot of black holes because we would be in one of those black holes. Right. If there's a universe that doesn't make any black holes, have to be in that universe native, right? With that, because it's not making any other universes with its black holes.

It's sort of like a pregnant cosmic pinata where you break it and then many universes come from that. That's obscure, but okay. How about, I get a better one, how about cosmic tribbles? Oh, there you go. Do you know tribles? Oh, yeah, Star Trek. Yeah, do you remember what the secret was about them?

I don't. They're born pregnant. Wow. Yes. I got a Tribble right here. Oh, look at that. Look at that. And the Tribble is pregnant when it's born. Yeah, it is so fertile, they're born pregnant. Mm-hmm. Right. So a universe that natively makes black holes, it's going to make other universes, you know, easy.

Right. But is there anything that can sort of, where is science in terms of being able to confirm any of of that at this point are you speaking to me right now because I'm just you're really loving that true I've just seen the episode everyone just to just stand there and squeeze them I know and there's a lot of them there's a lot of them and they make a little sound like what was it water that killed them or something oh no what happened was they were eating the grain of the ship oh and that they were delivering food to some location and then they were dying and it turned up the grain was poisoned by some evil no it just proves a

carbs are bad for it. You don't want to eat too much. You don't want to eat too much bread, people. That's the theory behind the truth. If I remember the storyline, I think that was it. Yeah. I'm Nicholas Costella, and I'm a proud supporter of StarTalk on Patreon. This is a.

StarTalk with Neil deGrasse Tyson. All right, so we're going to move on to our next question, which is a really terrific question from Henick Tedesi, and he is from Ethiopia. Thanks for truly making the sublime and fascinating part of everyday discussions. Here's my question. How was Stephen Hawking's theory about the accretion disk around black holes proven.

How does one go about proving theories about something so far away and not directly observable and what current theory or study of black holes excites you? I love it. Okay. So first, I think he's referring to Hawking radiation. Because otherwise, the accretion disc, that's a whole other thing. Black holes can have equation disc, but Stephen Hawking wasn't there. He cares about black holes evaporating by creating particles out of the gravitational field that surrounds the black hole.

So my black hole, and I have this gravitational field as an intense gravitational field. Occasionally, my field will create a particle, anti-particle pair, and they'll fly apart. One typically falls back in to the black hole, the other escapes. Well, if this keeps up, what's the future of this? You run the math and the particles inside the black hole are what are escaping by this mechanism out of the gravitational field. The gravitational field has a built-in inventory of what particles were absorbed by the black hole to begin with, had fallen into the black hole. The question was, do you lose all the information of particles falling? in.

No, it's retained, apparently. The Hawking radiation recovers all that fell into the black hole. It recovers it. And so the black hole gets smaller and smaller and smaller, without ever having to reach in through the event horizon. That's what's amazing here. Stuff is coming out of the black hole because it's birthed outside of the black hole, right?

So, how do we know this is happening? We don't. Quantum physics is the most successful theory of physics there has ever been. We have yet to see any edges where it begins to fail us. Newton's laws fail us at high speeds and high gravity. We needed Einstein to come in to cut that some slack. Okay? Well, how about, that was the limit of Newton's theories.

How about Einstein's? Is it limit to Einstein's? What happens in the center of a black hole? What happens at the singularity of the Big Bang? Einstein's equations fail there. It's sometimes described, it's where God is dividing by zero. Remember you're not supposed to divide by zero?

Right. In your math class? Yeah. You try doing that on your calculator. It just doesn't like, no. It doesn't like you. No.

It's like, you idiot. Go back and take some math. It's fire in your hand. So the thing with quantum physics is, It is so effective and so potent that if you discover an effect in quantum physics just by manipulating the tenets of quantum physics and the equations, that prediction, we take that as gospel. Because quantum physics has yet to fail us.

Correct. That's why we all believe. But that doesn't mean it's infallible. Correct. But that's why we all are on board with Hawking radiation. We're all on board with it. and the part of his question about well i'm you know speak for yourself except for you yeah mr tribble um how do you prove theories about something so far away goes to the way that you know sort of that the photo from 2019 of the black hole they look at stars orbiting invisible masses they caught heat and x-rays from matter that's how you know the black

hole is there right how big it is and what it does to its environment Right for gravitational waves, all of that? So these are observant. You don't have to be there. You just need a telescope. That's what makes telescopes useful. How do I know you were home? Because I looked in your window with my telescope.

Okay. Right. But it's sort of like you know there's a, you speculate there's a black hole out there, but you can't see it, but you see all of sort of the chaos around it. It's like that coworker you never see, leaves a mess everywhere. They do. And you've got to clean up after the co-worker. There's always somebody needs cleaning up.

You know what I'm saying? Right, right. They break it after and touch it. The stars are orbiting something you can't even see. It's like a dog chasing an emotional tennis ball, right? Just in a circle. Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah.

Well, that's why I'm here. An emotional tennis ball. Yeah. You're going to be thinking about that later. I don't want to think about it. So the environment of a black hole, we understand pretty well enough to look for what it predicts. Right. In fact, the first X-ray telescopes were talking.

targeting objects that we thought, could there be a black hole here? Is this signature of a black hole? You do the math, a black hole with an accretion disc, as was mentioned here, would radiate x-rays. Let's look for x-rays. And those x-rays showed because you got something back from black holes through x-rays, right? And it wasn't the black hole admitted it. It was the material around it. Correct.

But it told you because that x-ray basically said that's like the black hole chewing with his mouth open, right? Look, I'm eating. You can heat it in a way. I think that's a correct, that's accurate. You know? I mean, that's the scientist to me talking right now.

All right, we're going to move on. Elite. Greetings, Dr. Tyson. My name is Caleb Ferguson from Lebanon, Virginia. In the movie The Martian, there is a maneuver called Slingshot, which use the gravity assistance of Earth

to help accelerate a ship back towards Mars. My question is, is this technique used in real life? And if so, do you think it would be possible to attempt this maneuver using a black hole? So, first of all, a slingshot is used, in 100% of our missions to the outer planets. Right.

Voyager 1 and 2, Cassini. 100% of them. Cassini, Voyager 1 and 2, Pioneer 1 and 2, Pioneer 1 and 2. There's no other way we want to get to the outer solar system. The value is you get extra bang for your buck. I don't need to have rocket fuel get me that speed. I can come up behind a planet,

fall towards the planet while it's in orbit, and come out the other side and having gained energy. Because the gravity of that planet is pulling it in and shooting it out. No, if it's just pure gravity, it's symmetric. It's a subtle point that most people don't get. So if you just have the planet there,

you'll fall in, and it'll accelerate you. And how about it on the other side? You try to get out, but it'll pull back on you. That entire scenario is precisely symmetric. You don't gain anything if you're just falling into the planet and trying to climb back out. of the planet.

Okay. It's symmetric. It accelerates you at just the rate that it slows you down on the other side. The reason why a slingshot works is the planet is an orbit around the sun. And as you approach the planet,

yes, the gravity will pull you in, but the gravity is pulling you into a moving planet. So that's pulling you. Yes. So it's like having two horses. Exactly. So one is just the pure gravity, but that's going to cancel out on the other side.

But that's bringing you into the reference. frame of the planet itself and that extra energy gets boosted to you and now you can get farther faster in the solar system without having a rocket that was big enough to have to do that okay so slingshots are we everyone uses a slingshot so part of his question is about black hole using a that to me is like trying to get you know energy for a bike by riding behind the jet engine like it seems like you're gonna Actually, I try, let me, remind me to tell you something about when I was drafting off a truck, which I don't recommend anyone do. You want a skateboard?

No, I was in a car, but I'll tell you about it in a minute. So, it has nothing to do with the gravity of the object. So a black hole would only be useful to you as if the black hole is moving in the direction that you want to be moving when you come out the other side. Because, again, just like the plan, it's just not enough to just have the gravity pull you. Because the gravity is symmetrical. It'll eat you on the other side. So when we're slingshotting, it's almost, it's like you're sort of borrowing energy from a planet.

You're not borrowing because you ain't giving it back. And you're not reimbursing in vet through Venmo. You're just screwing the planet. It would be cool if you could. So rockets are just stolen orbital energy from the planet. And we proceed on the assumption that the planet doesn't mind. Yeah. They're like teenagers, these rockets.

They never have enough energy. They're always asking their parents for a boost. They're a mess. And we've got to help them out wherever we find them. planets they go up to the planet they get cute with the planet right right close to it right close to it and then next thing you know going never see him again on to the outer solar system i'm sorry i'm personalizing a lot of this i've had a lot of yeah i don't know have you been in in therapy about this tell me about this car drafting oh no so i forgot which

car ago of mine this was but it was the first time i was able to it was able to tell me what my miles per gallon was oh it had this a little it's an active miles per gallon Probably one of the first computerized cars. Maybe it was in there. And so I noticed that when I floored the accelerator, miles per gallon dropped to like three miles a gallon or something. Ben, when I was cruising, it went back up, gently pressing the, you know. So it was pretty much consistent with the sticker information about the miles per gallon that I was getting. All right.

So I said, I wonder what happened if I drafted behind a truck. right we go 18 wheeled truck so I'm on the high on the freeway and I start pulling up behind the truck and I start seeing the mileage go up the gas mileage the the miles per gallon go up I thought you're going to say you got mesmerized by the mud flaps with the cute girl on so it's so it went from 20 miles per gallon to 30 to 40 then I got within maybe 15 feet. Very dangerous. I don't recommend anybody to do this. Fifty feet of a truck going 60 miles an hour. Yeah, and a guy who does this for a living, it's like, why is this annoying guy behind me? You look, he didn't hit on the brake. I got with him about 20 feet,

and it went to 99 miles per gallon and didn't go higher than that. So basically went to infinity on the, so I was completely enclosed by the drafting, the draft air of the truck. And just for the StarTalk fans out there, whenever I go on a car trip, with Neil, it's really annoying because he'll only draft behind trucks because he's too cheap for gas. So it's really frightening. You're holding on, it's brutal and then

he saved money. Last time I tell you on a trip. He saved money. Still not buying your hamburger at the McDonald's when you stop. You're on your own. All right? The guy's working it both ways. That's what I'm saying. Okay, this was a very good question. These are great questions. One thing that most people, I think, I'm sorry, we're done. You can't talk about drafting. I am creating a more laminar flow of air behind the truck than it otherwise would. Well, because there's a vacuum there.

Correct. And I am... You don't have anything pushing against you. Correct, but I am making the air behind the truck come off the truck more smoothly. Which means, when I'm drafting off the truck, the truck's gas mileage is improving as well. But why would what's happening in the back of the truck affect the gas? Because is it pushing down and then pushing it?

Because there's no longer a partial vacuum behind the truck, because I'm inside that pocket. But why does a partial vacuum hurt them? Because it's sucking against, the truck is trying to pull against what was otherwise be a lower pressure air. But now you've got a vacuum behind your car. Well, it depends on how the air flows. Don't disagree with me. Just say you're right.

No, it wouldn't have to be a vacuum if the air comes smoothly. Vacuum is when it's turbulent. And again, okay, so no, watch. So on bike races, where people draft off of others. people say get off my back I don't want to tow you they're not towing him

you actually ride faster if someone is drafting off you but the person that's drafting off you is using even less energy than you right MX self-destruct Aloha Dr. Tyson Sammas from Los Angeles

Dr. Tyson I've heard you describe the process of spaghettification before and there are lots of theories about what one would see as they fall into a black hole however we know that as gravity increases and observers' perception of time slows down. Since the gravity of an event horizon is infinite,

wouldn't this mean that time would effectively stop for anything falling in, and so nothing ever actually crosses into the black hole itself? If you could maintain molecular cohesion, wouldn't you just see it evaporate away as you get closer until it's eventually gone? Back in the early 70s, when black holes were finally making their way

into our mathematics and our ideas and understandings of the universe, the science writer for the New York Times wrote a book titled Frozen Star, and he was referring to Black Holes, the name was Walter Sullivan, and I read a lot of his work. I mean, I appreciated people writing for the public when I'm there as a middle schooler learning about science, and so he, among others, were early influences in my life. I would clip articles he wrote in the New York Times on the latest discoveries. Anyhow, Frozen Star, referencing the fact that if you watch someone fall into a black hole,

they move slower and slower and slower. And right before the event horizon, everything stops. So it's frozen. That person is frozen. Anything is frozen, except it's not, but that's what was considered at the time. I would learn from Jana, Janelle Levin, sitting in that chair,

that as you come closer and closer to the black hole, what happens is the event horizon encloses you there's some phenomena that happens where you're not actually passing through it you are joining the event horizon as you get absorbed so you actually do pass through

there are a trampoline with a giant and I'm being serious ball that creates sort of the effect of a black hole and you're approaching the edge of that trampoline why is it a trampoline it's a rubber sheet that's curved listen it's my analogy I get to do what I'm black hole's not bouncing back no and so when you have so you're approaching that event horizon

from the viewer from the person looking from the outside observer you're you're frozen that person looks like as was understood in the early 70s but that's not the case you get absorbed into the event horizon itself then you pass through right without incident but that's what isn't where does spaghettification come in is on route to the singular right so you your feet are getting pulled and you're getting stretched. On route to the singularity. Right. At big black holes,

there's not much tidal forces crossing the event horizon. You just fall right through and you'll be fine. Right. It's as you start approaching the singularity deep

in the center of the black hole where these effects become significant. And there is this sort of chaos that's happening within the black hole at all times. Well, it's eating things voraciously, anything that comes near. So I don't know.

But the inside of a world, black hole looks like you want to find out less time drafting behind trucks more time doing some work you know what I'm saying buddy so the so in a sense the black hole is sort of this sort of like time slows down right in the vicinity of the black hole right and and so as seen by an observer from outside a very famous scene in the movie interstellar where the people on the black hole planet for 15 minutes and the guy ages 15 years or some some some ratio of time evolving for the two of them you come back he's got gray hair I wouldn't have

waited that long so as gravity increases time slows down yes right yes which is why I guess a lot of work meetings feel like they're right next to a black hole it's brutal you don't know time is slowing down for you well when you're on a plane the clock is a little going a little faster than on earth right isn't this doesn't speed up a little bit uh uh Well, not significantly. But it does it for the GPS satellites. Right. Yeah, GPS satellites, in fact, it's not slowing down.

It's speeding up because we are in a higher gravity field than the GPS satellites. So their time ticks faster than ours. Because the gravity is a little weaker. Weaker there than here. Right. Right, right. So the GPS satellites pre-correct the time they give you by saying, we're ahead of you. I'm going to subtract that.

Then I would give all your cell phone towers the correct time. What's funny is we know and understand that phenomenon because of Einstein's general theory of relativity. If his theory of relativity did not exist, we would be measuring that phenomenon and not know why it was happening. But just accepting it. Because it's real. Yeah. There's a lot we measure and don't understand. But quantum physics couldn't explain it?

Not that. No, it's relativity entirely. Dr. Neil Tyson, this is Roger Gambling. Roger coming at you from Eugene, Oregon. Eugene. My question regards Dr. Tyson's true specialty, science education. and the public understanding of science, in particular when it comes to people

with neurological disabilities. I have ADHD, so it's difficult to sit down and read something with consistent focus. For example, I only got about a third of the way through astrophysics for people in a hurry. And I'm with you. My question is,

what's the best way to learn undergrad-level physics without using the book? Let me take this one. I have the answer. It's called a keg party. you will see at a keg potty party so many laws of physics being defied and more as the keg slowly gets consumed

go ahead you can answer now all right astrophics for people in a hurry that's a relatively short book and if you only got a third of the way through here's what I would recommend because I have another book called letters from an astrophysicist where is this my correspondence with people back when my email was public and I had these conversations with people.

That's amazing to me that you had a public email. In the day. In the day. And there's some interesting other people on the other side of that. Some person in San Quentin prison writing, you know, there's a... How do I get out? He didn't ask that. If I use a file, will it really work?

He didn't ask that. Will a file rust in a cake? Or will it rust in a hot dog? Yeah. That's right. that book can be read in pieces because each letter exchange is just, so you can start it, stop it whenever you want. So the attention span for the reading, the letter, and the reply are resonant with someone

who might have ADHD. In addition, what just got published is the sequel to Merlin. Merlin, I had a pen name for Merlin for years where I answered questions from the public, brought it back into the 21st century. The second volume of that just got published it's questions and answers about the universe.

And they're short, brief. They're short and brief, some are really short. So it's like, and I'm not trying to be a short story form book to answer questions about physics in a way. It's shorter than short stories even, right? Short story might be 100 pages. Right, right, right.

So I recommend the Merlin books. There's two of them. What came out last year and one came out this year. That has more physics in it than the letters from an astrophysicist does. That one is people that have existential angst and want to know. I grew up in a Christian family and then I saw Cosmos and then now I'm rejected. What should I do? I, you know, I'm in prison for this and I accept my thing, but my kids are in school and what should I do? So it's a lot of existential right uh inquiries in the in the letters from an astrophysics book but the the merlin books will be right up his alley okay there's a lot of physics in there roger do that also cheat off your

neighbor's test stop i'm just saying especially after a keg party here's the problem i have a headache here's the problem school systems value grades more than students value learning wow you just blew my mind this is why people cheat. Think about it. There's no other reason to cheat other than to impress the school with your high grade. Right, because you want to achieve and you want to get a head. No, you want to get a high grade. Well, that's what I mean. You want to get ahead. Do you said you want to achieve? The achievement is the knowing of the information without regard to the grade. Listen, buddy, I've cheated my whole life. Don't tell me why I cheat and why I don't cheat. I'm telling you. Neil, I got to be

honest with you, I'm really tired of hearing about your books. What's tired of you? Look, I love you. I've known you a long time. Okay, go collect your paycheck and leave. More pictures, buddy, more pictures. More pictures. Okay, by the way, my Pluto book had a lot of pictures in it. Yeah, did it? Yeah, after the previous two books, I didn't buy it.

I'm like, I can't do this again. Okay, no, so if you are somehow having aversion to what I've created, which was in direct response to what I thought the public needed, let me just say. Let me back up. Did anybody write to you and say we need you to write these books? No, but I felt it. Okay. Yoda.

Fault it, I did. Yoda with a mustache. So, if you're not a good reader, maybe you're a good listener. Those two Merlin books? Yeah. I narrated them. Oh, my God. I think that might be worse.

Welcome to the universe. What do you mean worse? And because it's Q&A. For me to listen to your book, you're talking like that. I would have to turn all the lights off and get a bottle of wine and light candles. And my wife would be like, Why are you listening to Neil Tyson with candles and why? Are you having an affair?

I'm like, no, but he's talking like Barry White. Barry White. Yeah, baby. Welcome to the universe. You've got to put some music behind it. So it includes other people reading the questions because those are other people from the public. There's a kid in there. We got a kid voice.

We got an old person voice. So if you have ADHD with regard to reading, maybe it affects you differently with regard to listening. So that's, and other resources online, got to love the Khan Academy. Very carefully conceived lessons, K-A-H-N, Khan Academy. Khan! Star Trek.

Come on, you get to do a Star Trek reference, and I respond, you look at me like I'm crazy. I reference the series. This is the most famous thing in the series. And you're talking about one, at one movie. You got to look up with the sky. Ricardo Mantelbaugh. Yeah, exactly.

How do he keep working? God bless him. So to wrap up, you were saying there are all of these, I'm not really paying attention. I have ADHD. So the Khan Academy are educational units online that handhold you as necessary. or not, if you don't need it,

handholds you through lessons on almost everything you would ever find in a college curriculum, including physics. Okay, so there. And I've seen it, and in fact, my family donates to them. So, because I care about democratizing education. Just because you went to a fancy school, I don't need to hear that. You know, I want everybody to know what you know. Great.

I hope they'll help Roger. So we've got books. We've got audio books. Neil's books. Neil's books. Nobody else is. nobody else's books if you have any other books

Roger, burn them right now burn them that's not what I said and uh and the audio books and then you know I would

we would definitely recommend the ones with Neil's sexy voice uh all right we're moving on thank you Paul anytime

anytime anytime oh yeah all right William Dusenberry Nietzsche's eternal recurrence everything that's happening now

in the cosmos has happened before and will happen again at infinitum forever and ever, including black holes. What are the odds of it ever even happening once? Yeah, so I don't know, did Nietzsche talk like that? Did he have? This is it, Nietzsche's, yeah. It's not my favorite quote of Nietzsche's,

although attributed to him, I don't know if he actually said this, but it's those who were dancing were deemed insane by those who could not hear their music. that's a very deep that works you look through a glass window

and people just jumping up and down and you don't hear the music it's like wow what's wrong with those people I'm looking at a funny farm right now funny farm right right right so that's my favorite quote of his attributed to him

so this sounds like sort of a cosmic cosmic in the multiverse I spoke with Brian Cox about this actually but was it Brian Cox or Brian Green can my Brian's cross pollinated. One of them, they're my physicist at large. And I reach for them when I need extra physics to back up my astrophysics. So I didn't know Nietzsche had anything to do with

the multiverse, but in the multiverse, we are just one of an infinite number of universes being born at all times. And apparently that infinity is large enough to include all possible configurations of atoms and molecules. So that we would be having this conversation in another universe yes or or there's a version where you're evil and you have a goatee it's right there sitting next to you it's your evil puppet oh well so it's like if everything's happening over and over again man I really wish I'd spend a fierce to the few cycles the beginning cycles learning how to fold a fitted sheet because it is brutal I never learned it oh the fitted sheets yeah you have to tuck one corner into the other is that what

you do yes yes you have to reverse it tuck it under in that way we The two corners were stayed together. Were you a Boy Scout? No. I'm just cultured. It's like, I don't know. I, okay, look, if you want to repeat, the idea of repeating life infinitely at Infinite Item is... They just say it's you're there each time.

Well, it sounds like a good idea. No, no, no, no. That's a different Paul Mercurio. No, I understand. It's all their Adams, but it's not you. You are here now. There's a version of me that's still on hold with Comcast. And that's, I don't want that.

I don't want that living on at infinite items. That's not happening to you right now. That's not you. How do we know that, though? How do you know that there's not some part of me that's that person? Because we've already done the experiment. What are you doing in your basement that we don't know about with human beings? We have twins.

Identical in every way. My father was an identical twin. In every way. And they're not feeling the pain of the other one. They're not having the same thoughts. The different people. But they're identical. So go to another universe and you're identical there and is not you. Period.

I don't think you can be physically identical and not mentally or emotionally similar in some way. I don't think it sort of gets parceled out that way. My father was an identical twin. Yeah. Looked alike. Age the same way. Identical in every way. Same cadence. I can't believe that a physical body can replicate. And then in the future, that body you're telling me that person becomes the twin or the twin of that person. somehow emotionally or mentally, there isn't still some DNA of that person. There would be identical DNA, but you're not the same person. You are, I have the one and only Paul McCurio that matters to me in this moment.

If you are in any other universe, I don't give a rap. I can't. I got to compose myself. You're all becempt. So, so if you're, another universe i don't care look at me i love you too okay take it in take it in all right i think i think i get that now yeah and your father's twin was somebody else they weren't the same person utterly fascinated because he was like the elvis version of my father i'm

not kidding he wore a diamond pinky ring he drove elerado catalax it was what yeah he was my the twin my father stayed in rhode island he moved to california and he became like the whole nine yards. So it was like someone sent my father into central casting and came out, but I don't want to take up too much time. Greetings, Dr. Tyson, Vincent from Cincinnati with a question. It's a good town of Cincinnati. They have a nice comedy club there. Do you consider atomic fission to be a natural phenomenon?

And if so, why is Einstein's theory still a theory and not a law? Isn't the detonation of A-bomb's proof of theory? We don't use the word law anymore. We don't really. It's a little outdated in the following way. Go back to the 19th century and earlier, we were discovering how the universe worked. We had Newton's laws of optics and laws of gravity and thermodynamics,

a whole branch of physics that studies heat, and we had electrodynamics that would be later. All of this, we call them laws because they applied everywhere. A law is here and there. Right. Then we found the limits to those laws. But why does it's not... Well, if it's a limit, can't it be a law?

Should we call a law if it has limits? There's not a law. Well, who said law presupposes that something is absolute? That's the assumption, if you'd say that to somebody. In science. No, no, back to, this is what, it was what, it was presumed to be. Then we learn that these ideas had limits. They still applied in the regimes where they had ever been tested, but they had limits.

So we no longer call them laws. It was just a theory of relativity. We have quantum theory. We have, so they're all called theories. And a theory is the organizational understanding of how nature works, represented by a mathematical imprint of what's going on. And so it's not, we're waiting for the theory to become a law. That's not how this works anymore.

No one is, that's not how we think about it anymore. So the theory of relativity, it works every place we've ever tested, and it has limits at the singularity. We have quantum theory It's worked every place we've ever tested it We don't know where to test it where it doesn't work yet But you can't call it a law We're not calling them laws anymore

Just not using the term Maybe I am And so nuclear fission It's not a thing in the universe Because using large atoms And breaking them apart There aren't many large atoms in the universe But we can make them here on Earth

And we can find them and purify them And so, yeah, fission is real. All of that. It's all real. But it's still the theory of relativity and quantum theory. And it'll always be that. So when you have people saying, well, we should teach creation in the school because evolution is just a theory, that sentence in modern times has no meaning. There's no such a thing as just a theory.

And even there's some scientists that don't fully. recognize this distinction, okay? Between theory and law. But no, between theory and hypothesis. Okay? People say, well, I have a theory that if I do this, then that would happen. No, you have an hypothesis that that will happen.

You're going to test your hypothesis. And then it becomes a theory if it's only if there's that and a hundred other things that come together in a deeper understanding of the world. And if it's all shown to be correct, you have a new theory of the universe. So it's a subtle, but a very important point. There's no such thing as it's just a theory.

And any time I hear someone say, I have a theory that, I say, no, Einstein had a theory, you have a hypothesis. I'm shocked that scientists, bright science, billions, I can't make that distinction. No, no, because it's a pedagogical point. Because people want to think one thing. And the scientists are just doing what they do and they don't know how the public is misthinking what they're doing. So they don't have, they're not thinking about how to correct for that. But I think about it all the time. Plus, notice this thing is proof.

Prove it. That's not a thing in science. It's give me enough evidence to support what you say so that I no longer need to question it and I go on to the next question. But you're always open to it being disproved if something comes along. Don't use the word proof.

We're open to shown to be wrong if there's better evidence that comes later. However, multiple experiments getting the same answer then you've got you're good to go here and again it becomes part of what is objectively true about the world that's so newton's laws we went to the moon on quote newton's laws because going to the moon didn't test the edges of newton's laws

but you want to play with black holes you want to build a black hole detector you need Einstein to get that to work And it's still Einstein's theory of relativity. Now, we could call them Newton's theories of matter, but. But those laws will work in black hole with regard to black hole. They won't, but what I'm saying is we went centuries calling them laws, and so we just still call them laws. Yeah.

Okay, let's move on. That was a great question, by the way. Raca, Darkoda. Good day, Dr. Tyson. Chris here from the land down under, Australia. Been listening for a couple of months now while I work. Wait, okay. First of all, I hope you're not.

an air traffic controller okay i don't want to be like yeah american airlines you land wherever i'm trying to figure out this i got kneel on the line here to try to figure out this event horizon stuff and and drafting behind trucks like some crazy man um dr tyson do you think it's possible that black holes are actually the ancient remains of collapsed wormholes kind of like the dead moths of cosmic tunnels that once connected different parts of space time could what we call black holes today be fossils from an earlier, more interconnected universe. I love it. So wormholes we know are not stable.

They have to be actively propped up with some material that does not exist yet that has negative gravity. Because gravity makes space collapse. Negative gravity would make space expand, would make space separate. And so if you want to build a black hole, we know how to make one.

We just don't have the substance that will allow it. So you can't just imagine a universe that had these highways called black holes that all collapsed because somebody had to have made them. Somebody had to make them. Well, there's quantum gravity and this string theory, right? And they suggest that wormholes and black holes might be the two size of the same sort of geometry. It would be white holes and black holes possibly connected with a wormhole. Yeah. But we've never seen a white hole.

So it works. Maybe you ought to look like that. It works arithmetically, but we, and we, we make a prediction of what it should look like in space, and we've never seen one. So it's a mathematical curiosity. Well, is it a black hole of one-ended wormhole then in some way? Because some have suggested that, right? A time that leaves nowhere. When I think of wormholes, I want to step through and land somewhere else and be able to step back through.

And black holes don't give you that option. that'll give you the two-way street option. They're very one-dimensional. Emotionally very, they're a mess. But what's cool? It's a hole that you can fall in from any direction. A wormhole. No, well, yes, but also a black hole.

From any direction you can fall in. But that's true. No, it's not. If there's a hole in the ground, you can only fall straight through. You step over it in these. So is that gravity causing that? Or it's in relation? It's a hole in space time.

So no matter the direction you approach it. There is no top or bottom. Correct. there's no top or bottom you coming from the left the right the top to bottom there's like a top sheet the bottom sheet but that's a whole other thing all right margot lane that sounds like a like a superhero's girlfriend margo lane margo lane greetings neal from elk california given that the sun will eventually consume us wow shouldn't all of our energy everyone started out dark oh my god you're a yeah margo you're not getting invited anybody

parties. What's up, everybody? Margo's here. Given that the sun will eventually consume us, shouldn't all of our energy everywhere be focused on trying to stay alive? The speculation is 5 billion years will be consumed by the sun.

How optimistic she is? Well, this is very, for me, the sun is consuming us. Why am I uploading new emojis to my phone on Apple? Why do I care about any of stuff. Because it's in five billion years. But still, half the people won't use sunscreen and they know they're going to get burned alive. Burned alive. Actually, the sun in that future will be very

red and will not be emitting much ultraviolet. So it's not how bright the sun is. The sun will be how much ultraviolet light it's giving. Is it going to be burning out as a star? No, just the surface will be cooling. The surface will get cooler, but it'll get so big. Like the surface of the sun will be very close to Earth. So the oceans will come to a right. rapid boil and then evaporate, and the atmosphere will evaporate, and we'll be this charred ember orbiting within the confines of the star. Can I just say something right now? I want to kill myself. No, what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is, five billion years, what I'm saying is five billion years, that's long enough that we will surely go extinct for 22 other reasons well before

then. Yeah, TikTok filters. It should be less. We're going to die. People are worried about TikTok filters. Eventually, but there are other things. For example, an asteroid could strike. There could be a killer virus. It could be... All right, I'm done. I'm leaving.

I'm getting out of here. There could be... A plague. Yeah, plague, like a killer virus. Same thing. There could be... What else could be killed? Oh, we could just go extinct because climate change and we can't adapt to it.

Okay? You know what the average life expectancy of a mammal species? It's about three million years. on average. Right. So if we beat that average, good. But if not, we don't have to worry about the sun dying. Do you think in five billion years there'll be Amazon Prime deals?

You know, we have three years. No, because maybe we'll have wormholes and you won't need delivery services. There you go. No, I fantasize about, I think about this all the time. Yeah, but they're still going to get it wrong and leave it at the wrong house. No, no, because that's not where it's happening. Open your refrigerator, and the back of your refrigerator is a door to the grocer. That's the wormhole from the grocer to your refrigerator.

Wow. Yeah. So the Amazon delivery is like the Amazon warehouse, and then they pop open the door. But wait a minute, back up. In the grocer, you open the door, is he sleeping with my wife? No, no. There's a way to lock in so that they can't just come through completely through the hole. I have marital issues, but go ahead.

Okay, so they'll swap out the milk and the eggs or cheese, whatever is the thing that's going bad. And so that would be the future of wormholes. And so, yeah, I love them. I can't wait. You wouldn't need roads. You just, what's transporting me through a wormhole? It is the warp in the fabric of space and time. You borrow a hole through and you just step through

and then you unwarp space. But am I molecules being disassembled and reassembled like Star Trek? No, because wormholes are way better than that. you never So you will enter dressed It is you We'll step through

And you come out the other side Dressed exactly the way And you'd still wear that shirt On that side of this All right good for you My mother You're visiting the other half The galaxy

You'll wear that shirt You're my son And you are not going to go Dress through the other side Of the universe Like that young man In a wormhole universe There are no delivery trucks

There's no roads Is there any downside to a wormhole universe? Everyone who had a job driving. Okay. That's true. You have to put that on your unemployment filing every week. That might happen well before then as self-driving cars kick in. What caused your unemployment?

Damn wormholes. All right. All right. Dude, thanks for coming through. Yeah, absolutely. All right. We'll find you on the in and out, up and down. Yeah, in and out.

Burger in California. I'm serving French fries. Why don't you pay attention when I called? It's Inside Out. Inside Out. Inside out. You know all of these things and you can't remember two words. Inside Out.

Because that's the name of the Disney movie or the Pixar movie. You stepped into a mental wormhole. Inside Out with Paul Mercurio. All right. And you've been on it. It's my podcast and permission to speak. My show is online. Yes, yes.

My YouTube channel and people can follow me. We love your show. Your live show. Thanks. All right. And are you mercurial? You know what people think I am. Okay. Yeah, my wife is special.

Look up the word. That's your SAT word for today. All right. This has been StarTalk, Cosmic Quarry's Grab Bag Edition, leaning very heavily to black holes. Yeah. Very good. Yeah. All right. Until next time, Neil deGrasse Tyson, keep looking up.

You know,