StarTalk Radio - First Man – Celebrating Neil Armstrong

Episode Date: October 19, 2018

Neil deGrasse Tyson, comic co-host Chuck Nice, and Astro Mike Massimino celebrate Neil Armstrong and the impact of his career and the legacy of his first steps on the Moon. Featuring interviews with Neil Armstrong and Apollo Flight Director Gene Kranz.NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/first-man-celebrating-neil-armstrong/Photo Credit: © Tyson Archives. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. StarTalk begins right now. This is StarTalk, and I'm your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. And today, this is a StarTalk devoted to the first man. Adam? No. That was Chuck Nice, my co-host of the first man. Sorry.

Special edition of StarTalk. We're, of course, talking about Neil Armstrong and his first steps on the moon. And we're not going to do that unless we bring in an astronaut. Wow. And a cool, I got on my Rolodex, I got some astronauts. Wow. And one of my favorites, actually he is my favorite, but I don't want to tell him. Oh, that's nice.

Mike Massimino. Mike. Neil. Dude, thanks for coming. Chuck, thanks for having me. I'm so glad I could join you today. This is on short notice. We saw each other just the other night.

Yeah. We saw a preview screening of the film First Man, all about Neil Armstrong. And I realized, it's not about Neil Armstrong. It is Neil Armstrong's view. Yeah. Right?

It's his point of view. It's who he was. It's who he was. They captured his personality, what he was about, the way he approached his work. Yeah. It was, I thought it was fantastic.

Let me finish introducing you. So you're a former NASA astronaut. Yes. You're a mechanical engineer. You're a professor at Columbia University. And you're a senior space advisor to the Intrepid Sea, Air, and Space Museum. Thank you for mentioning all those things.

Always good to see you guys, especially to talk about my boyhood hero, Neil Armstrong. So did you guys know Neil Armstrong? Can I finish introducing you? Oh, you're still on this introduction? I'm sorry. Holy moly.

You're a veteran of two space flights. STS, which is NASA code for Space Transportation System. Correct. Oh, cool. It actually makes sense. Does it? I thought you could just call it Shuttle. Shuttle.

Shuttle Mission 109 in 2002 and 125, that was a good one, in May 2009. The last servicing mission of the Hubble telescope, giving it life into the 2010s. That's right. And you've had four spacewalks. Yep. And you're the, okay. He's the first man unto himself. Yes, he is.

The first man to... Tweet from space. Oh! Nice. Take that, Neil Armstrong. Yeah. Okay, so Neil Armstrong said, one small step for man,

one giant leap for mankind. What were your first tweets from space? Yeah, that's the problem. Now, there's a Neil Armstrong story here related to it. Okay, go. I don't know if we want to go there yet. Go to it, go, go.

The very first time, Neil Armstrong came to speak to my astronaut class. We were there for a total of four days. So you're still like an astronaut cadet or something. Yeah, we were just getting like, he was there. Total newbies. He happened to be in town for his physical. Our training manager reached out to him.

In Houston, right, at the Johnson Space Center. All new astronauts. And she asked him, Paige Molesby was her name. She asked, she went and got a message over to the clinic. Would he come speak to us? And he said he would, but he only wanted to speak to the new astronauts. So he came over and talked to us mainly about uh flying in the x-15 and we asked some questions the x-15 the test uh plane from nasa yeah based on a military uh i mean it's a it's a

it's a rocket a super rocket supersonic yeah rocket plane yeah and it's it was one of the more it's i don't maybe the most successful experimental aircraft ever built. They went like Mach 7, a couple of those guys. Seven times the speed of sound. Yeah, and a couple of those guys earned their astronaut wings. For having done so. For altitude. Yeah, that's how high this airplane could go.

It could get you to what, you know, space is an arbitrary boundary. That's another story. Right. But they were able to earn astronaut wings in that aircraft. Earth itself is in space. Yes, it is. Have you ever been to space? That's another story. but uh but they were able to earn astronaut wings in that earth itself is in space yes it is yes it's a whole that's another yes i hate to bring this up because then you'll have a whole nother show going right right about the boundary of space but but an amazing aircraft he talked about that in other things and we got to meet him and talk to him but the day after we were at a um it was like a luncheon going on because there was a reunion

as well as him coming in for his physical. And I ended up next to him on the food line, you know, making a sandwich. Damn, even the luncheon had to go on the chow line. Wow. That's cold. That doesn't even seem right. That's wrong. You know what I mean?

It wasn't bad food, though, even though it was government food. Anyway, so he's next to me. You know, I said to myself, I had to say something to this guy because I'm next to him. I don't know how it happened, but serendipitously. And I asked him, when did you think of that first thing that you said on the moon? The one small step for man. I go, did your wife tell you? Did you get a publicist?

How'd you come up with this? And he turned to me and he says, well, Mike, I thought about it only after we landed. Because if we didn't land, I wouldn't have to say anything. It wouldn't make a difference. And so I concentrated only on the landing. Saves his brain energy. Well, but I think what he was, the message he was trying to get to me as a new astronaut, or I don't know if he was

trying, but the message I took was, you take care of business first and you worry about that other stuff later. So his focus was landing on the moon. So for my tweet, I did the same approach. I said, I'm not going to worry about this first tweet. We have to launch into space. We have to get there alive and successfully.

Big mistake. I got a job to do. Big mistake is right. This was a mistake. So I get there and it's, all right, we're alive. And it's time to, the computers are up and running on day one. And so I need to come up with something. So what I said, what I tweeted was, launch was awesome.

The adventure of a lifetime has begun. I'm feeling great, enjoying the view. Something like long, but the first- That's okay. It was okay. But during the mission, I was paying attention to the mission, of course. During the mission, aside bars, I didn't get any email from my kids. My kids were, they were both teenagers.

I love my kids. They were both in were both teenagers I love my kids they were both in high school I love my kids butt but they were very happy that I was away from the planet at that time and they were ignoring me and I'm writing them

you know well they could they could have taken it personally some dads go on a business trip no no no you left planet earth they were happy I was away and they were like

dad annoying dad can't bother us anymore and I wasn't getting any email from them is he in New York or is he in space which way did he go well they knew I wasn't. And they were like, Dad, annoying Dad can't bother us anymore. And I wasn't getting any email from them. Was Dad in New York or was he in space? Where did he go? Well, they knew I wasn't there and they were just happy enough.

They didn't want to be reminded. So I wasn't getting any email from them. Saturday comes. Saturday comes and Saturday Night Live makes fun of this tweet, Neil. And this was in 09, so it's the 40th anniversary of the, almost the 40th anniversary of Apollo 11.

And Seth Meyers on SNL says, we have the first tweet from space, Mike Massimino, and here it is. Launch was awesome. In 40 years, we've gone from one giant leap for mankind to launch was awesome.

If we ever find life in the universe, I assume this is how we'll be notified. And it shows my little Twitter thing and it says, geez, dudes, aliens. So they made fun of me and my kids finally sent my email on that Monday. They sent me email on that Monday and it was after the space watch

like, Dad, thanks for saving the Hubble. You did great. No, it was, Dad, they made fun of you on Saturday Night Live. All the kids at school loved it. Keep saying stupid stuff. So I don't think Neil Armstrong ever got a reaction like that from his kids on that. So that was bad advice for you.

No, it was still good advice. I still think it's good advice because his advice was you take care of business first and that's what you concentrate on. And I think that's the way he was. And I think that's why he was chosen to be the first man if only he had followed it up with and make sure you schedule your tweets

yeah um and also uh this story and others we can find in your book spaceman yes space thank you yeah thanks for that thanks that's a plug it's a yes it is a plug. It's authentically conceived. You're a great storyteller, and I love the book. Thank you. And you didn't fix the cover photo, though, because you're sitting there smiling, and there's a rocket coming out of your ear that's launched behind you.

Well, I was told the publisher's in charge of the... You can have input for the cover, but they... I was in charge of the words. It looked like you had earwax with a plane coming out of it. I know. I've heard... In fact, if you see the... I've heard other comments which we can't mention about what that looks like.

So, yes, I agree. So, the two of us saw a pre-screening of First Man. And everything I know about Neil Armstrong, because I knew him, I mean, I don't claim I knew him well. We weren't beer-drinking buddies. But, I mean, we were acquaintances, I should say. And everything I knew about him, and I think is true for you,

all you knew about him, all that you knew of him was consistent with how he was portrayed in this film. Would you agree? Absolutely. Yeah, everything that I knew about him. So give me your best characterization of him because some people don't even know that.

I would say that um he loved he loved flying airplanes he loved doing his job he loved being a test pilot test pilot is a fighter pilot pilot first in korea yep then test pilot yeah a test pilot he was he was i guess a very thoughtful engineer but loved flying when he came and spoke to our astronaut class we got that engineer club well he was a... But he saw it as an engineering problem, as a challenge,

and that's why I think he was not just a great pilot because he loved flying, but also a great test pilot because he enjoyed the engineering behind it. And that was pretty impressive,

I thought. I had never thought about that. You could be Flyboy and say, give me that machine, I'll do what I... But if you're an engineer, you're thinking about the machine.

Right. And if the aerodynamics... If you're thinking about the machine. Right. And if the aerodynamics, everything. If you're really into that, like he was, I think it was this. And not all great engineers, I think, can make great pilots, but he was one of those that could. And I think that's where you have a really special test pilot. And do they ever make a change to the plane? And he says, no, that ain't going to work.

I'm sure he chimed in. I would expect that those conversations were made, especially back in those days when they were doing things that were much different than what they had ever done before and how fast they were going, how high they were going, what they were trying to achieve. When his test pilot days,

I'm sure there was a lot of those conversations, yeah. So I would add to that that Neil Armstrong was not gregarious. He was a very quiet man, did not seek publicity. He's not the person who you'd say is the life of the party. But sometimes the people who are not the life of the party are sitting there doing nothing. He's sitting there in his head figuring stuff out. It's the active, restless brain of the engineer.

And so this was surely captured. That was him. And when I first met him, Neil, you described that really well. When he got up there in front of our, we all stood up and gave him a standing ovation. And just about all, I was one of the younger people in that group of new astronauts in 96. So just about everyone in that room,

maybe one or two wouldn't remember, remembered where they were. And he and that episode of what he did, landing on the moon, that whole mission inspired most of us to become astronauts, I would say. We all remembered it. So you're meeting your hero.

We're meeting our hero. And it was just me, it was everybody. And he's the man, right? He was the man. And he gets up there and it seemed almost like he was painfully shy. Almost said it was hard for him to talk. And he, he didn't mention the moon at all. He talked about test flying and how important that is and how you have to be diligent about

it and how much he loved doing that. And after he was done with it, we got the questions and answers and we started asking what was it like on the moon. But up to that point, he was delivering that message. Almost painfully shy, but he loved so much what he did and felt it was so important that that's what he focused on. He was the right man for the job. Do you think NASA chose him to be the first on the moon because of all of this. Because he does not seek publicity.

Because if they got some grandstand in, yo, look at me, I'm on the moon. Here's my book about me being on the moon. Here's my talk show interview. I've got a need for speed. You mean like if it was one of us? Is that what you're basically saying? Yeah.

Do you think they thought that through? I think that what they... They needed someone humble. You know, that seems like a... You know, I used to think that maybe at first, but I think lately in the last few years, I've changed my thinking of it because I think that's almost too much thinking.

I think really what they wanted to do... No, really, you know, I think what they were looking for was the guy that would get that... I think that was too much thinking. I think really what they wanted to do, no, really, you know, I think what they were looking for was the guy that would get that. I think that was too much thinking. No, I guess you start thinking too many things. Like, oh, this guy is wearing blue, and this guy, you know, you overthink it.

I think what they saw was this was the right man to land on the moon. Whether or not he was gregarious, whether or not he was shy, whether or not, whatever those personality traits were, he was the right man because he understood what was happening he was going to focus on that job 100 not be distracted and maybe that has partly to do with the fame seeking but i think really he was chosen not for that for the personality part of it but because he was the right man to

do that job did they choose who actually got out of the capsule first i mean yeah because he was the right man to do that job did they choose who actually got out of the capsule first i mean yeah but he was the mission lead as well the commission commander yes he was the commander that's right so it wasn't because he was commander that he got to go first they actually made the choice like you're going to be the first to step foot on the moon and your commander and your commander like those are two separate things. You think. Yeah, like, for example... It could have been like in Star Trek. You go check out the glowing blob first. Right.

Buzz, you check, see that glowing thing? Report back to me. Right. And then I'll step off. Right. And that's traditionally... You're going to be the Black Ensign

from the Enterprise. But that's the way, that's the way we did it. Now that you're saying it, that's why I spacewalked, apparently. Because that's what we would do in the shuttle program. The commander and the pilot would not go out and spacewalk. The mission specialist would.

And one of the underlying reasons was... Just to be clear, mission specialist is someone who has an expertise, usually a scientific or an engineering expertise, brought into the service of the mission. Correct. So you're not flying a plane. We're not there for landing. We're not going to land.

I mean, we're part of landing, but we're not actually going to land. Right. Because the idea is, what happens if your commander goes out and doesn't come back? Who's going to land? Right. But it's okay if you go out and don't come back. You can still land the bird. I hate to put it that way, but yes.

You don't have to put it that way. I'll put it that way. We used to brief our spacewalks. There was a lost crewman. There was a line. Everything you would check, like, all right, this is in place. You know, this check, that check, that check. And part of the briefing was lost crewman. There was a line. Everything you would check, like, all right, this is in place. You know, this check, that check, that check. And part of the briefing was lost crewman.

And lost crewman was a procedure we had to go rescue a guy that comes lost. And what we would do, sort of kidding around, was lost crewman, don't worry about it. We got three more. That's what we did because we had four spacewalkers. So that was like the joke. And we'd all laugh. But on the line, I'm like, you're kidding. Come get me.

But we were going to do that if we needed what were we talking about oh the commander who went out first yeah the commander and traditionally I think in Gemini what they did was

is that the commander would not go outside Gemini 2 astronaut capsule right and that's when they first spacewalked Ed White was the first spacewalker and Buzz was one of the one of the last spacewalkers

in Gemini but I think it was traditionally the commander stayed inside yeah thank you mainly the command I think the tradition traditionally the commander stayed inside. Yeah, thank you. Mainly the command, I think the tradition was the commander stayed inside, and it was the pilot who went out and then came back, because there's only one guy at a time going. So this was a

different case where you're going to have both people going out for the walk. Wow. Yeah. So, part of the authenticity of the film was the little details

that they didn't have to really care about but they did. Yes. So there's a moment I happen to own an Omega watch that was gifted to me

by Stephen Hawking. Wow. And that's pretty nice. Yeah. I don't mean to name drop. I was going to say I just like the fact

that you didn't name drop. Yeah. I've got one too but I had to buy it myself. Right. I have a Stephen Hawking watch too. He just doesn't know I have it. Oh, you got his watch?

Yeah, he was just walking around just like, you gotta see my watch. Who has seen my watch? So, it was gifted to you by you. Exactly. So,

no, I got the Stephen Hawking Award for Science Communication. So it's only like a year old. But this introduced me to Omega watches. Omega was the first watch on the moon. Right. They were chosen by NASA after NASA got all the premier, what, Rolex, Breitling, whatever. Whatever the top watches were of the day

i i wonder if they threw in the timex i don't know just to just to get america in there i bet so they i'm sure they did okay so they throw it in probably still on the moon taking a licking and keeping on ticking nobody remembers that advertisement it was a wind-up so in fact yeah the moon watch was a wind-up so they put them all in black boxes each and scrambled them and then shake them, baked them, heated them, radiated them. And at the end of the experiments, the Omega still had the correct time. So Omega is our watch. And so they still milk that today with their advertising.

But in any event, in this festival that I attended, the Starmus Festival that Hawking is an organizer of, Omega was one of the sponsors and so this became the watch. It's engraved on the back. But I saw a watch that looked very much like this on Neil Armstrong's hands in the movie. It's right there. I'm wearing it.

You're wearing it. I have it on camera. Did you get this from being an astronaut? No, no. So we had Omega watches on the shuttle and the way it was explained to us like how they won that competition was the crystal. Apparently that crystal

that they had on top was almost impenetrable and you could do whatever you wanted to it. It wasn't going to crack so particles are a problem. So that's why I think it's on the layout.

And with moon gloves, how do you wind a watch? Well, I think you have to do, wind it ahead of time. Okay. We had a different Omega that we had. We had a different,

we wind it ahead of time. We had a different Omega for the shuttle. This is the moon version. I had a different Omega that we had. Why did I add a time? We had a different Omega for the shuttle. This is the moon version. I had a different one that I had to purchase. Now, Omega was willing, I think, to give us these watches for free, but it was a government program, and NASA said not so fast. So we had to buy our watches, but we were able

to purchase them from Omega and then fly them. I'm not wearing my shuttle watch, and I'm wearing a moon watch that, yes, I had to go into the Omega store and buy. Man, that is messed up, man. No, it's okay. No, you can't. Otherwise, you can be bought. It's the right thing.

It's the right thing to do. That's how you want it to be. You don't want it any other way. No, no, it's the right thing. We've got to take a break. We've got to take a break. You are listening to, possibly even watching, StarTalk. This is our first man edition celebrating the life and the first steps on the moon

of Neil Armstrong. We'll be right back. We're back on StarTalk, first man edition. And I've got, first man, who's the first man? Neil Armstrong, first man on the moon. I've got our friend on StarTalk First Man Edition. And I've got First Man. Who's the first man? Neil Armstrong, first man on the moon. Got our friend of StarTalk, Mike Massimino.

He's been in space twice. One of them to repair my Hubble Space Telescope. I love you, man, for that. Thank you. You're welcome. Chuck, nice. Co-host, Chuck. Yes, and I've been in space.

I'm still in space. I'm still in space. Spaced out in space. Two different things, Chuck. Yes, and I've been in space. I'm still in space. I'm still in space. Spaced out and in space, two different things, Chuck. Two different things. I was asked back in 2009 to host, to emcee, the 40th anniversary of the Apollo landing. 1969 plus 40 gets you to 2009. It was in the Air and Space Museum. It was there. And I forgot, Mike, what I did in front. landing 1969 plus 40 gets you to 2009 it was in the air and space museum it was um there and i

forgot mike you tell what i did in front you told you just you moonwalked well i had yeah every living moonwalker in the audience in front of me some interesting things i remember no you said some you said something about being the 40th uh that i thought was anniversary yeah and you were saying how 40 was an interesting number because oh 50 you might not you know and we've lost so many of those guys between then and now and uh and you did the moon walk which was great you know i don't dance let's go back to the 40 because that sounds a little you know provocative oh no so what i try to remember this is when I said it. 40 is an interesting number because in many stories, they don't track it beyond 40.

So 40 days and 40 nights. Correct, yes. It's not 50 days and 50 nights. That's right. 40 days and 40 nights. Jesus got 39 lashes, not 40, because 40, that's like infinite. Right. You got to bring that in.

Okay. You don't want to kill him. Right. You just want to hurt him. Oh, that's the one last that would have did it. That's what I'm saying. What else? Just the number 40 shows up, especially biblically.

Yes. There you go. Okay. And it's a, so when you pass 40, it's like more time than historically people reckoned. Okay. You sort of, you know, one through 40 and then infinity beyond that. And so beyond that, it's like,

okay, is it still there for us to remember or do we have to be reminded of it? Whereas if it's within 40, you can talk about it. People were alive. They were conscious. They were adults. They were, so.

That makes sense. That's two generations, basically. Yeah. Beyond two generations. You're stepping into the next generation. You're stepping into the next generation. And that makes perfect sense. Okay, good.

I think that set the mood at the time that this was a really special night. Thanks for remembering that. In this event afterwards, StarTalk was in our first year. And I said, this is a target of opportunity for me to get a bunch of interviews

and we can make a show out of this. So I waited till the event was over and we had a reception and all of this. And I got interviews with various key people in the space program at the time, as well as some old-timers like Neil Armstrong. And he never gives interviews. Yeah. Have you ever seen him interviewed on TV?

No, that's one of the things he's known for is not being a big talker. Here's why I think he granted me the interview. Because you moonwalked? I first met him when I was 14. Oh. On board the SS Canberra. En route from New York City to the coast of Northwest

Africa. Holy cow. To observe a total solar eclipse. The longest in the century. And he was one of the various sort of important people brought on board right first they would enjoy the Eclipse but also they were there for the rest of us to interact with and this is 1973 and you're 14 14 are you yourself yeah I'm by myself I lied it's always going what did you do yeah I was gonna say what were you stole away did your parents know you were going on this thing?

They're like, wait. My parents didn't even let me take the subway back then by myself. Why does that suitcase have legs? You were on a cruise with Neil Armstrong

to see an eclipse when you were 15. I brought my telescope with me that I bought from dog walking. I got to go to a ball game and I was excited. Dog walking money.

I had my telescope. I had my camera. Wow. And awesome. There were 1,500 people. They took off all the shuffleboard and the lounge chairs, and it was a forest of tripods on this. The whole ship was a scientific floating vessel.

Wow. And he was there. That's when I met Isaac Asimov and various other sort of heroes, if you're a geek kid in the day. Wow. You weren't a geek kid. You were a king geek, okay? You were king of all geeks.

Yeah, a geek kid is just like, I can't believe I just got this new trading card. You're like, I'm going to North Africa with Neil Armstrong for the eclipse. Are you kidding me? Yeah. All right. Go ahead. So he's sitting alone at the bar. And this is one year after the last mission to the moon,

which is 1972. It's four years after he walked on the moon. And I said, you know, Mr. Armstrong, and I had my ship program with his picture and the thing. And I said, would you mind signing? I don't know. Could you sign? And so he signs it.

And I just said, thank you. When I next saw him, I showed him that, that I was on this vessel. Right. And I think he, I don't want to project what he might be thinking, but I think he saw that I became somebody. No, there's an instant connection. You come to me all these years later with a signed program from a ship

that you stowed away on so that you could go to North Africa and watch an eclipse. That's pretty cool. I would have rather the story ended with him going, pull up a stool, kid. Yeah. He likes scotch.

That's what it takes, kids, to get an interview with Neil Armstrong. You're not just going to, hey, I've got my press credentials here. No, that's not working. And it was brief, but I have it. And you'll see he's smart and calm and measured. And let's check it out. This is my interview with Neil Armstrong, brief though it was.

Neil Armstrong, commander of Apollo 11. How old were you 40 years ago today? I was 38.93. Excellent. I love it. And of the entire Apollo era, what's your most indelible memory? And it could be your own walk, but if not, I'm just curious. Most indelible memory was approaching the moon

and flying through the moon's shadow so that the moon was eclipsing the sun and we could see the corona all around the moon. It was not circular, it was elliptical, which was a big surprise, I understand that. And then we could see the moon, the dark side of the moon, of course, illuminated by Earthlight.

And we could see the craters and the valleys and the plains in a blue-gray, three-dimensional view that was spectacular. Texture. The image had texture. And remarkable, but imperceptible to a camera, but the human eye was wonderful. And the last question, what do you think NASA should do next? I'm a supporter of the NASA plan. Just needs more money, I suppose, but the ideas are there.

Yeah, I think the approach they're on is a good one. I like that. That's a very pilot approach. They're a little below glide slope, but they're going to get there. Thanks for those three questions.

Wow. That was pretty cool. You guys never interviewed, and I felt like I was even taking too much by asking just those three questions. Wow. Yeah. That's pretty cool. You guys never interviewed, and I felt like I was even taking too much by asking just those three questions. Yeah. And I'm kind of giddy. He was really into that second,

what's the indelible, you could actually, I can almost feel him looking at the moon. Experiencing it. Yes. Experiencing it. It was really very visceral, his recounting. And consider that's nothing you're going to get on this side of the moon. Yes. Experiencing it. It was really very visceral, his recounting.

And consider that's nothing you're going to get on this side of the moon. Yeah. Right? So it had to be the backside because he would have studied all the maps and the pictures and everything. Right. Yeah. And one of the things that I noticed with the movie that I like, one of my favorite things, first man movie, was that you're able to see what it looked like. first man movie was that you were able

to see what it looked like and I think they probably did it pretty accurately because the film that we had back then in 1969 we had some but especially

the approach and the landing they're like there were cameras kind of looking out that triangular window and the dust kicks up but you really don't get

an appreciation for what it was like to see outside. Can you imagine now if we were able to do that with a bunch of GoPros or whatever they would stick on high def cameras

we would see that moonscape and probably even the night passes. A GoPro every foot. Probably so. It's easy. Make the whole ship out of GoPros. And even in the low light level on the other side I'm sure they could have found something. They would have been able to do something

because just recently now we can get great images of the planet at night from station, for example. And if it wasn't clear, his point that the eye catches it but the camera doesn't is because the eye

in one glimpse can get a very high dynamic range. So the moon can be very dim but the solar corona can be very bright and you can see all that at once

where the camera is going to commit to either the bright corona or the dim thing but you're not going to get both and he's experiencing both. That he gave you uh allowed us to picture what it was like there's no there's no real good video of that but his description of it is is what we have

to go cool like yeah but you can feel that this he'd rather just not be be interviewed right it's he would just want to go on his way. Yeah. But is that really the best person to have represent the fact that you have walked on the surface of a celestial body? That's a good question. You know? I've heard one of his, I heard Mike Collins at Neil's memorial. Mike Collins, the third astronaut who didn't get to go down to the moon.

Right, he was, yeah, he orbited in lunar orbit in the command module while Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin were on the moon. I heard him speak at the memorial. I don't want to misquote him, but at Neil Armstrong's memorial when he died and they had a memorial service for him

at the Johnson Space Center. And he talked a little bit about that, about him being maybe shy and cerebral or whatever, but he was like, well, why wouldn't you want that? Why would you, this man who was so qualified, who did such a great job, why would you want him to be anything different than who he was? And I think that he was the right man to land on the moon, and I think that was what they were most concerned with.

Because, no kidding, they weren't so sure they were coming back from that mission. They weren't so sure they were going to be successful. Apollo 12 and 13, 11, 12, and 13 all had the same mission. They all trained for the same mission. Because they weren't so sure 11 was going to be successful. And then it was. And then 12 had to come up with something quick, which was different than what they did on 11. But they all trained for that same mission because they weren't so sure 11 was going to be

successful. What you're saying is if 11 failed, then 12 would try it. You try it. You're next. If 12 failed, you're next. And that can be in a few different ways. Not so that they wouldn't come back alive, but they might not get down to the surface and come back. They would have to abort

and then come back to Earth. So it was really important for them to try to get the right guy to be the first guy. And that's what they went with. Who's the best guy to pull off the landing, especially, of this? And that's where he had ice in his veins.

And by the way, there's a misconception, I think, about the first comments from Houston after he says, Houston Tranquility Base here Eagle has landed yeah okay which means of course the first word of the first comments from the moon is Houston but there you go plug for plug for you Texas my former home a planet Houston yeah so Houston Tranquility Base here so we talk

actually there was some other kind of contact light and other things yeah contact right but Houston then says something like, congratulations, you have a bunch of guys down here who are about to turn blue. Yeah, that was Charlie Duke. Okay. Yeah. You think they're saying that because they just landed on the moon. That's not why they're saying it. They were holding their breath?

That's not. Yes, they were holding their breath, but it's not because they just landed on the moon that's not why okay why would okay so why were they about to turn wait they were smurfs no i'm sorry i'm sorry because neil was not happy with the original landing spot and he only has a certain amount of fuel to prevent himself from crashing down onto the moon this is keeping them buoyant nope too them buoyant. Nope, too many boulders there. Nope, too many boulders there. And you see the fuel come down. Wait a minute.

And then he keeps going, I think I'll go over there. And my boy is smooth. Let's wait, okay? It's like he's looking for parking in Midtown. He can't park there. He can't. I can't park there. Baby, baby, you think I can fit in there?

No, no. Try over there. But if you don't make it, you got to go home. Wait, baby, you think I can fit in there? No, that's... Try over there. But if you don't make it, you gotta go home. Wait, wait, wait. So then he finally finds a spot, lands, there's like 1 or 2% fuel left. That's what they... Because if he got... If he went to zero...

If he lands with fuel in a place that he could crash because it's not level, that's bad. If he keeps looking,. Can't get home. If he keeps looking, he can't get home. If he keeps looking and runs out of fuel, he'll crash because he runs out of fuel. Well, he might have aborted.

Oh, they could have still aborted. I don't think he would. You just jettisoned at that point. I think that's what they would have done. Forgot about that. Okay. Which is not a good deal either. So he would just, and they capture this in the film in the tension.

So that's why everyone at mission control was freaking out. Oh. Because the mission might not complete. Not because, oh, we're happy you landed. Yes, we're all happy you landed on the moon. But we're happy you landed on the moon alive. Yeah, he was down to one. He had a low fuel light came on, 30 second fuel or whatever it was.

Yeah. And in the cadence of... Which is depicted in the cadence of, which is depicted in the movie, but the cadence of what, you know, the calls he was getting from Buzz, you know,

so many forward, so many down. And I think he was talking about rates at that point. Yeah, that's right. It's this way and down. Right. Right.

Forward, yeah, five forward to give him an idea of how fast he was moving forward. So, because he's all out the window, I would think at that point.

And that's the cadence of him coming down there. Yeah. Wow, that's fascinating. So I got to agree, if your mission is to succeed, that has higher priority over any social profile the person is going to have. Or public relations. Yeah, you succeed first and worry about the rest of that later.

And his friends, his colleagues, John Young was still an astronaut when I became an astronaut and later walked on the moon. Alan Bean was his office mate and his colleague as well. Another moonwalker. And I've heard him and those other guys say Neil was the right guy for the job. If they had a pick out of who they knew

was going to get that job done, it was Neil Armstrong. Alright, we're going to take our next break. We're talking about First Man. That's the First Man on the Moon, Neil Armstrong. When StockTalk returns. We're back. StarTalk, First Man edition. We're celebrating the life of Neil Armstrong and the moon landing and his first steps.

Got Mike Massimino. Mike. Neil. Very good. I'm just still laughing, chuckling at your first tweet. Oh, boy. Golly, I'm in space. Was that what it was?

Launch was awesome. Launch was awesome. Yeah. You should have thought more about it. Maybe they misunderstood and thought you meant lunch was awesome. No, that was the first day in space. No lunch yet. You're not feeling that great.

Lunch was awesome the next day. That's when I wrote about the macaroni and cheese. This first day was lunch. So at NASA, there's a famous colorful character called Gene Kranz. And he's the one who is portrayed famously in the film Apollo 13 saying what? Failure is not an option. Failure is not an option. Failure is not an option. I bumped into him.

Did he say that in real life? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, that's the legend. Okay, cool. Okay. And I bumped into him with a microphone in tow, first year of StarTalk. I'm getting all the interviews from all these space folks at this celebration of NASA's

40th anniversary for landing on the moon in 2009. Let's pick up with my conversation with Gene Kranz. Here with Gene Kranz. Failure is not an option, Gene Kranz. Is that your middle name now? That's been a good game plan for most of my life. I really came into failure as not an option well after I started the business of Stars and Stripes Forever.

When I was going through flight training, I had a very bad night. My first night solo, I suffered almost disabling vertigo. And finally got back landed, and the next evening you got to go out and do it again. And there's a story about you got to ride the horse that threw you. I was fortunate that uh as i was sweating it out chain smoking lucky strikes the flight line public address system came alive checking it out for the saturday parade and they played the stars and stripes forever i picked up my parachute ace that night flight in fact i aced the business as a cadet graduated

went to fighter weapons school, and from that day on, every day of my professional life started with the Stars and Stripes forever. There's an inspiring... Everybody's got something that gets them going. For most people, it's a cup of coffee.

Neil, I start off with a cup of coffee, too. But the Stars and Stripes, it was interesting. I look for something that very slowly builds the energy, builds the crescendo, such that when you hit each day's work, you're at the peak performance, and you remain there throughout the day. I found out that basically, from my standpoint, psyching yourself up is the

key to success. Believing that you can, believing that you will. And then when you fall down, believing that you can pick yourself up and start all over again. I want to ask you three questions. You ready? How old were you 40 years ago today? I was 36 years old. You were a baby. I was a baby. My teams in mission control averaged age 26. The majority of those were kids fresh out of college. They had a couple years training. They grew up in the Gemini program, early Apollo. They lived through the disastrous Apollo 1 fire,

and they became tough and competent, and that was the fuel, the energy for the fire that took us to the moon. What is your most indelible memory from the entire Apollo era? Neil, I... I would say the most indelible thing were really many things. They were the personalities of the people. were really many things. They were the personalities of the people.

I had young kids that came in fresh out of college who had this dream of space. I had the engineers come in who developed the initial trajectory work, John Llewellyn and Carl Huss and Tequin Roberts, who were absolute pure mathematicians, and they reveled, I mean, this world. So most people just... Which life to them. And basically, I was a dumb engineer. I was a dinosaur. But my business was not to know the work that they did

to the level they did it. My job was to be able to ask the right questions and watch the clock. I counted cadence for mission control. So most people who only see the astronauts have no concept of all this that's going on behind the scenes that's making it happen in the first place. Well, the mission control team has the responsibilities for planning, training, and operate. And when we have problems during the course of the mission, we have to come up with solutions that allow you to continue

with the plan that you had. And if that is not possible, to come up with another plan that you to continue with the plan that you had, and if that is not possible, to come up with another plan that is just about as good. One last question. What's the primary goal you think NASA should have going forward? I believe NASA should go back to the moon and then on to Mars. I believe that it's very important. You know, to me, the moon is like the boundary in the Mississippi River. We've been

across there a few times. But really think about the development that took place out west. Think about Lewis and Clark going out to the Pacific. Think about the business of exploration and those things that we learned and developed and discovered out there. But most importantly, I think it is a human thing. Exploration is a process that must be in every person's mind. It has to be part of their personality. It has to be the kind of thing that makes them want to get up and go to work each day and discover. So, back to the moon, onto Mars, and beyond. That's right.

You got it. I'm going for it. Go for launch, Neil. Okay? Excellent. There's only one Gene Kranz. I effing love that guy. I love him.

You want that to be the voice in Houston when you were in the universe somewhere. I want that to be the voice of everything. That guy is amazing. Gene, will we be okay? You will be fine. I'll tell you what you're going to be. You're going to be absolutely terrific. That's what you're going to be. Neil, I want to tell you.

I like coffee. I like my coffee as black as space. But I use the stars and stripes as the sugar in my coffee. And I wake up every morning to coffee and stars and stripes. It's tremendous. That's American.

That guy is awesome. That dude is awesome. He's really the guy that you want looking out after your ass. Really? Right, right, right. I mean, when you're up there in space, you want to know that the man in charge is going to make sure you're okay and is going to consider it most important.

He didn't mean God in that case, the man in charge. He meant Gene Kranz. I meant Gene Kranz. No, the man in charge, what I really mean is the flight director. The flight director is the person who oversees the team that is looking out for you. And that's what I always felt. You have a certain connection with your launch flight director.

In this case, I think Gene was the launch flight director. And Mike Linebeck was the guy that launched us out of KSC. And then our launch flight director on my second mission, Norm Knight. And Tony Sacocci was the guy during the orbit. And there was those... We had an orbit guy.

We had an orbit guy. There was an orbit guy for Apollo 11 as well, right? Yeah. But they all followed, I think, in Gene's steps. And that was what you wanted. You wanted someone who was going to make sure you were coming back. The right stuff wasn't only the folks who flew. It's the folks on the ground.

Yes, and they take it just as personal when something happens as anyone else involved. Their job is to bring you back more than anything. Now I know where that saying comes from, too. You want a guy like that. What's that? Now I know where that saying comes from. What's that? Failure is not an option.

People say that all the time. You didn't know it was him. I thought it was Gene Cramp. You didn't know it was him. I didn't. I thought it was like a movie quote. Well, it's a movie quote because it's quoting him. It's the title of his book, I think, as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Failure is not an option. Oh, man. You got to go get this book. I'm going to go get him. Are you kidding me? Get it on audiobook. Exactly.

I hope he narrates it. Chuck is like, his eyes are popping out of his head. I love that guy. Like, this dude, he's like 76 right there when you're talking to him. And even at 76 and you're talking to this guy, he sounds like a 22-year-old kid. Right, with excitement. Yes. Right, right, right. I love that.

So, Mike, did they level with you what your risk of not coming back was? Because they made a point of this in First Man that these risks are real. And we saw others die. Apollo 1, three astronauts died on Earth. Wow. There are test pilots who have died. So, this is a specter over your choice to participate. Yeah, I think they tried to be as accurate

as they could about it. Yeah, and I remember it more because I flew on Columbia, the mission right before we lost Columbia. And then I flew again after on Atlantis, both shuttle flights. And I don't remember if it wasn't as much talk beforehand. I guess it wasn't maybe as much on our mind

as it was after the accident. We lived through that. After the Columbia accident. After the Columbia accident. But the number I remember being told was about one out of 75 chance. And they weren't saying, we want you to know this number.

It was more like, this is our new calculated probabilities. I always thought it was like one in 50. Well, I think there was one out of 75 and that was total destruction. That's loss of crew and vehicle. That's everyone's dead, and the vehicle can't be used again. There are other odds that may be of...

They folded the odds of reusing the vehicle with the odds of you coming back alive? That sounds pretty crass. Yeah, but it's true. I mean, I hate to put it that way, but when we lost Columbia, we just didn't lose our seven friends. We also lost the spaceship and what happens to the program. Right, okay.

There's a loss of crew and vehicle. Now losing, but it's not so much about, it really isn't crass, I don't think. Because you can lose the vehicle but save the crew. So if you have an abort with the shuttle and it ends up in the water as you abort, hopefully the crew gets out alive. So it's a combination of loss of crew and vehicle. It was about

one out of 75. And as it turned out, we had two accidents out of 135 flights. That's probably how they came up with that number, quite honestly. But it was one out of 75. And as it turned out, we had two accidents at 135 flights. That's probably how they came up with that number, quite honestly. But it was one out of 75 with total loss.

And do you think about it at all? Or are you just too busy doing your appointed duties to even let it cross your mind? I took a flight back to New York from Detroit yesterday morning, and the whole time I was like, God, I just hope these people

know what they're doing. Sometimes you're worried more on a commercial flight than you are doing anything. I think we had it. No, I, yeah, absolutely. I did. I don't know if everyone does, but I knew that, that there was a very good chance that something might, might, it might, you might not be coming back. And I think it's, it's in some ways, that in some ways that's a good thing to know.

And the movie captured this poignantly with his relationship with his wife and his kids. Yeah. And I think they also showed the after was successful, how wonderful it was to have that accomplished. That we had succeeded. That we had succeeded. Alan Bean tells us this story that after Apollo 11,

after his mission, it wasn't the whole world. His impression was the whole world. It wasn't like you did it or the US did it, but we did it. We, the human species did it. Yeah, that motto, they came for all humankind. Let's change it a little bit, right? For all humankind. I think that's the way everybody felt.

We come in peace. We come in peace for all humankind. For all of Earth. Yeah, and that's the way everybody felt we come in peace for all humankind yeah and that's why i think people felt about it it was an accomplishment that for that humans that showed what we could do in the whole world was was a part of it and they felt it was an accomplishment for the world i was had the privilege and honor to be invited to ne Armstrong's funeral service in Ohio after he died. And the moment was solemn, of course, but it was also celebratory. There were reflections on Neil as a person. And one thing that came across was, yeah, Neil was the right guy for this job.

Neil was the right guy for this job. And because if he started grandstanding this achievement, then it would be like he landed on the moon. But in fact, we all landed on the moon. It's our collective first step on the moon. Tens of thousands of engineers and scientists and hundreds of millions of taxpayers. We landed on the moon. And what did he do when he was done? He became citizen Armstrong again. Became a professor. Went back to Ohio, where so many astronauts have come. Became a professor and shunned interviews.

And I'm reminded it was a Roman emperor, Cincinnatus. Cincinnatus, after whom Cincinnati is named. Cincinnati, Ohio. That's where he taught. He came to become emperor, and when he was done, he went back home and continued as a farmer. Didn't exploit the fact that he ran all of Rome.

He didn't grandstand that fact. He was called into service. He gave of himself, his time, his energy. Sacrificed whatever was necessary for his home life. When he was done, he went home. That's what Neil Armstrong did. He came home to us all. It's pretty cool, man.

I have to say. I understand it for Neil Armstrong. Cincinnati's got a problem with him. What? What's your problem with Cincinnati? I'm just saying, you know, you were ruling all of Rome and then you became a farmer. What's your problem, buddy? Are you kidding me?

The Roman Empire? You want a Roman Empire at your disposal? It's a reminder. You want that for farming? It's a reminder that some people want power for power's sake rather than power to lead and guide others in a time of need. That's a cosmic perspective. We got to end it on that. Mike Massimino.

Thank you. Always great to have you, man. And thanks for doing this for Neil Armstrong. He is, I think the things you said, especially at the end there, I think those are lessons we can learn for all of us, no matter what your occupation is, how to approach things. And he was my hero as a little boy because he landed on the moon, but getting to know him a little bit as a person and learning more about him, that's when you realize what

a true hero he was. Thanks for doing this and having me a part of it. Gene Kranz is his hero now. I'm just so happy for this show. Not the Cincinnati guy. Cincinnati's no. Gene Kranz forever. That is all I'm saying.

This has been Star Talk. Most of you are listening. Some of you are watching. I've been your host, Neil deGrasse Tyson. As always, keep looking up.